Official VEKN Malkavian Antitribu NEWSLETTER, December 2004

Official VEKN Malkavian Antitribu NEWSLETTER, December 2004 VOLUME IV, Issue III 0. ERRATA My previous newsletter was dedicated to anti-Malkavian combat abilities (err... combat disabilities, for sure). Somehow I managed to miss the best defensive card available for our clan disciplines, Gemini's Mirror: Name: Gemini's Mirror [BH:C] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Obfuscate [obf] Strike: dodge with an optional maneuver. [OBF]Only usable before range is determined. When resolving each strike against this vampire, flip a coin. If it's tails, the strike has no effect on this vampire. This lasts until heads is flipped or combat ends. A vampire can play only one Gemini's Mirror at superior each combat. If you look at the superior abilities first (as I always do), you're going to repeat my mistake and overlook this card. Superior ability isn't very good - just look at the expected results, assuming you aren't cheating with the coin: 50% of the time it will do nothing (heads is flipped); 25% of the time it will prevent only one strike (tails and heads flipped); 12.5% of the time it will prevent two strikes, and so on. Average number of prevented strikes is close to 1, if number of strikes is high enough, but who needs such "improved dodge" for 1 blood? Surely, this ability is better than Dodge, since it's not a strike, you can strike with something else, and it's unaffected by Immortal Grapple and Thoughts Betrayed. But if your opponent can strike only once in a given combat (no additional strikes and no presses), this card works only 50% of the time, which isn't good enough for 1 blood. Obviously, this ability becomes much better if YOU are planning to continue combat, and I guess that Gemini's Mirror would shine in Nosferatu Trap/Carrion Crows decks (Gemini is Nosferatu, you know). Malkavians antitribu can use this ability against multiple-strike and multiple-round combat decks, when a single maneuver+dodge won't be enough. Nevertheless, the best part of this card is its inferior ability. You get both maneuver and dodge in a single card, and this is generally enough to save your vampire. Immortal Grapple deck will be forced to play BOTH maneuver and IG to deal any damage in the first round. Single-strike combat without IG, Thoughts Betrayed or presses is completely hosed by this card. Moreover, if you know that your opponent has no Grapples/Thoughts Betrayed, and he chooses his strike first, you may dump maneuver to get sudden dodge... this sometimes foils an expensive strike like Burning Wrath or Coma :) Obviuosly, Gemini's Mirror isn't as good against multiple-strike and multiple-round combat. When maneuver is useless, Dodge is better for a non-combat deck, since it is free, but in this situation you can use superior ability of Gemini's Mirror. If you were lucky with the first strike, your opponents will think twice before playing their Blur or press to continue combat, as your luck may stay with you until combat ends. Note that this card is very good even with INFERIOR Obfuscate, and virtually all !Malkavian vampires (except for Boy Toy, Idalia and Muriel Foucade) can play it. Unsurprisingly, all !Malkavian deck use Obfuscate (a Malk who cannot hide is a dead Malk), so the mentioned vampires aren't popular anyway. This card would shine in any Obfuscate-based deck, including weenie Obfuscate. Even 1-capacity Basil can play Gemini's Mirror... heck, even Marijava Thuggee can do it! If you still remember Run Away Like a Mad (a card that I invented in the previous newsletter), I've got a good news for you: Gemini's Mirror allows you to defend without Run Away, so the latter card was my mistake. This card is truly outstanding. 1. INTRODUCTION This newsletter is about voting decks. Most successful voting decks are based on Presence, since this Discipline provides the best supporting cards. Voter Captivation is the most important as it provides a lot of blood and even 2 pool at superior. Bewitching Oration and Awe provide a lot of additional votes and make a good combo with Voter Captivation. As voting decks usually run huge vampires to get a lot of votes, Voter Captivations allow them to recover after Minion Tap. Malkavians antitribu have no Presence, but they do have stealth, which is extremely helpful for playing political actions. Each political action has inbuilt +1 stealth, but there are decks capable of blocking such actions, and having one intercepting neighbour is generally enough to make your game extremely difficult... UNLESS you have additional stealth. Surely, Malkavians antitribu aren't the only vampires with votes and Obfuscate. Setites have both Obfuscate and Presence, and Nosferatu voting decks are well-known and strong enough, but !Malks also have their advantages that can be wisely exploited. 2. HERE WE ARE Building a voting deck without Presence is rather difficult. Though we have some good cards to push our votes, there are no other Voter Captivations. To push our votes we can use Private Audience, which prevents Camarilla and Independent vampires from voting or Telepathic Vote Counting that forces one vampire to abstain. Or just Bribe other players to vote for us. Personally I prefer permanent sources of votes like Powerbase: Madrid or Legendary Vampire. The latter card was suggested by James Coupe, who has my gratitude: there are no cards better suited for !Malkavian voting/bleeding deck, as you gain both bleed modifier and votes. The key for success in voting is having good vampires with votes and be able to survive long enough. Voting decks aren't especially quick, thus you have to pack serious amount of defense and bloat cards. Speaking about stealth-voting deck, Nosferatu can pack some agressive combat cards instead of defense, and they even have access to Animal Magnetism , while we have absolutely no support from our primary Discipline (Dementation), and surviving combat will always be difficult for our clan. Fortunately, we have some very efficient voting vampires, and we can play The Call to bloat/influence vampires faster or Sibyl's Tongue to find needed cards. We can also bounce bleeds (a serious advantage compared to Nosferatu), and, of course, we can bleed ourselves! 3. CARDS OF THE MONTH Name: Powerbase: Madrid [SW:R, BH:PM] Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Master: unique location. During your untap phase, add one counter to this card from the blood bank if it has less than 4 counters. Tap to give a titled Sabbat vampire X additional votes during a referendum, where X is the number of counters on this card. Any vampire controlled by another Methuselah can take a (D) action to burn all the counters on this card. This is the best permanent source of votes for titled Sabbat vampires, except for Regent or Power Structure, which aren't suitable to our clan. This card doesn't require a Sabbat vampire, so you can play it on the first turn and accumulate a few counters while influencing your first vampire. If nobody would burn counters from Powerbase, you will gain 4 extra votes for one referendum per turn, which is even better than having a free Bewitching Oration in your sleeve. You may tap Powerbase during opponent's referendum to make the referendum fail; you may use it during a Blood Hunt referendum (this can enable diablerie); finally, you may give votes to a vampire controlled by another player. Thus, even if you'll have no titled vampires, you'll be able to "sell" Powerbase votes to other Sabbat players. Certainly, your opponents can burn Powerbase counters, but, fortunately, not the Powerbase itself. The difference is huge, since players are unlikely to waste precious actions to deny you the votes for a couple of turns. After all, you'll gain the first counter on your next untap phase anyway. If somebody sends a little vampire (say, Embrace) to burn counters, you may easily block the action, as it doesn't have inherent stealth. Most players will leave the Powerbase to you, especially if they won't be playing voting decks themselves. Since Powerbase: Madrid is a rare card from Sabbat War, if would be difficult enough to find it, but, fortunately, it's also included into anti-Malkavian starter. Just purchase the starter, and you'll get your Powerbase with a bunch of Kindred Spirits and other useful cards. Get it! Name: Private Audience [SW:C/PV] Cardtype: Action Modifier Cost: 1 blood Requires a ready archbishop, priscus or cardinal. Only usable during a referendum, before any votes are cast. Non-Sabbat vampires cannot vote on the current referendum. This card is worse than its Camarilla analogue (Closed Session), since it isn't free, but metagame oddities actually make it a better card. As Camarilla clans are generally better in politics than Sabbat clans (for a multitude of reasons: access to Presence, Inner Circle vampires, clan-specific cards etc), it's much more likely to encounter a Camarilla voting deck than a Sabbat voting deck. Thus, Private Audience is much more powerful, as it hoses more powerful Camarilla voting decks. Usefulness of this card, obviously, depends on your deck and the metagame. If you have a lot of Sabbat votes, you may be able to push your referendums even without this card. But if you have just a few votes, other Sabbat players may have more votes than you. I believe that Private Audience is most useful in decks with medium number of votes (5-6 votes, for instance). Speaking about Malkavians antitribu, you would like to use Private Audience in a deck with Korah, Marie Faucigny and General Perfidio Dios, but a deck with Hannibals and Maris Streck, like my "Deck of the Month" can probably work without it (don't forget that Maris Streck is a Camarilla vampire!) Name: Telepathic Vote Counting [Jyhad:R, VTES:R, SW:PV, CE:R2/PTo, Anarchs:PAB, BH:PM] Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Auspex Only usable during a referendum. [aus] Cancel the referendum. If you played a political card to call this referendum, take the card back into your hand (and discard back down to your hand size). Any votes cast are lost. [AUS] Force a vampire to abstain from voting. This can cancel that vampire's votes. This card isn't as powerful as Private Audience, but at least it's free and universal - you may use its superior effect against any vampire on the table. Forcing a vampire to abstain is very good, especially against Inner Circles, and you can do it when all vampires already cast their votes. Inferior ability is going to be played rarely enough (unless you want to cycle your cards), but it may be very useful sometimes. Imagine you are trying to play a political card, but your opponents have Powerbase:Madrid, Ventrue Headquarters or another vote-providing location. He taps his location, somebody burns the Edge, and your referendum is going to fail, but you play Telepathic Vote Counting, return the political action into your hand and play it with a different vampire! Nothing prevents you from doing this, as this card isn't Delaying Tactics. 4. VAMPIRE OF THE MONTH Name: Hannibal (advanced) [Promo-20040409] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Malkavian antitribu Group: 2 Capacity: 10 Discipline: cel dom AUS DEM OBF Advanced, Sabbat cardinal: Once during each Methuselah's minion phase, Hannibal may burn 2 blood to untap. Hannibal is the elder of our clan, a single cardinal we have. Ten capacity is a lot, but there are no cardinals cheaper than nine. Such vampires usually possess superior level of all clan Disciplines and provide powerful abilities besides that - just look at Lambach or Ambrosio Luis Moncada! Fortunately, advanced Hannibal also has some tricks in his sleeve: * Inferior Celerity. Not very useful at inferior, but can be upgraded to superior level, which grants Blurs for your weapons and many other things. * Inferior Dominate. Hannibal can play Obedience, and that's wonderful for such combat-lacking clan as !Malks. He can also play Deflection, Redirection and other useful Dominate cards. Really helpful. * Ability to untap during each minion phase for 2 blood. Wow, isn't it wonderful? This ability allows Hannibal to perform two actions per turn. The most devastating usage of this tactics involves bleeding, untapping and playing a political action. If you manage to play Legendary Vampire on Hannibal (the brilliant advice of James Coupe), you will be able to finish opponent in two turns without any other vampires: bleed for 3 (or more), then untap and Kine Resources Contested, having 5 votes from the lone Hannibal! Obviously, paying 2 blood for untapping looks like a huge price, so you can pretend that you aren't going to play two actions per turn until your prey crosses the "red line". Meanwhile you can untap Hannibal to block especially dangerous actions of your predator (and play Obedience) or to bounce heavy bleeds. This should convince the table that you're just another slow and peaceful voting deck... which is certainly just a bluff, as there are no such thing as "peaceful anti-Malks" :) Did you notice the words "looks like a huge price" in the previous paragraph? Just another false impression, I assure you. When a vampire untaps with Freak Drive for 1 blood AND A CARD, this is considered very good, though Freak Drive allows untapping only on your turn. When you spend an action and 4 blood to get Rutor's Hand, this is also considered good enough, though you get a benefit compared to Hannibal's ability only on the fourth turn! Note that you still have to find the Rutor's Hand, while Hannibal's ability is always with him. Advanced Hannibal is really powerful, though making use of his power is far more difficult than just block with Lazverinus... 5. DECK OF THE MONTH Deck Name : Hannibal the Restless Author : Ilya Ginsburg Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 7 max: 10 average: 8.5 ------------------------------------------------------------ 4x Hannibal Adv 10 AUS DEM OBF cel dom cardinal !Malkavian:2 3x Maris Streck 9 AUS OBF ani dem dom justicar Malkavian:3 3x Korah 7 AUS DEM OBF ani priscus !Malkavian:2 2x Marie Faucigny 7 AUS OBF dem tha archbishop !Malkavian:3 Library [90 cards] ------------------------------------------------------------ Action [11] 6x Call, The 1x Pulse of the Canaille 4x Sibyl's Tongue Action Modifier [19] 4x Elder Impersonation 3x Faceless Night 3x Forgotten Labyrinth 4x Lost in Crowds 5x Spying Mission Action Modifier/Combat [5] 5x Swallowed by the Night Combat [2] 2x Coma Equipment [2] 1x Aaron's Feeding Razor 1x Ivory Bow Master [17] 1x Elysium: The Arboretum 1x Hungry Coyote, The 2x Information Highway 1x Institution Hunting Ground 1x Legendary Vampire 6x Minion Tap 1x Perfectionist 1x Powerbase: Madrid 1x Purchase Pact 2x Sudden Reversal Political Action [17] 1x Ancient Influence 5x Banishment 1x Disputed Territory 1x Dramatic Upheaval 6x Kine Resources Contested 3x Parity Shift Reaction [17] 6x Obedience 6x Telepathic Misdirection 5x Wake with Evening's Freshness This deck is my humble attempt to build a voting deck with !Malks and, specifically, to get the most of advanced Hannibal. The crypt is very heavy, as I tried to get rid of the "vote-pushing" cards and to replace them with "permanent votes" of my vampires. If you manage to influence Hannibal, Maris Streck and Korah, you will have 9 permanent votes for 26 pool, which is pretty realistic with a help from Minion Taps, The Calls, Ancient Influence and Parity Shifts. If eight or nine votes isn't enough, Powerbase: Madrid can provide even more votes! This deck even doesn't need Cardinal Benediction, as the most you can gain from this card is +1 vote for Marie Faucigny. As you can see, bloating and acceleration occupy a solid number of card slots, as the decks really wants to compensate for the size of its vampires. Information Highway and The Call really speed things up, and these two cards make a good combo when you just want to gain 3 pool, thus Information Highway never becomes useless for this deck. The primary sources of pool gaining are Minion Taps, but you should play them carefully, as Hannibal or Maris without blood cannot use their abilities. Unsuprisingly, blood management is one the most important parts of this deck, as you need to refill your vampires prior to playing Minion Tap or using expensive abilities. The Hungry Coyote is the best card for all your vampires, except for Maris Streck, and there are Aaron's Feeding Razor and Perfectionist. If you have The Hungry Coyote, and your Hannibal has Perfectionist and AFR, he can potentially get +4 blood with a single hunt action! Combine double hunt per turn with Minion Taps, and you will get really good bloating; alternatively, you can hunt, untap and do something else until your Hannibal regains his blood back. Feel free to play your Sibyl's Tongues for these cards, as they are really important. If you get your Hunting Ground or steal opponent's HG with Disputed Territory, this will definitely help. Combat protection was my headache while building this deck. Finally, I decided to lower the number of protection cards, but to keep the most powerful of them. Obedience is really good, and it can be played by Hannibal and Maris Streck (more than a half of the crypt). Even if both Hannibal and Maris are tapped when opponent rushes at +1 stealth, you still can untap Hannibal, let Maris give him +1 intercept, block and play Obedience. As you have both Sabbat and Camarilla vamps, you can use both Elysium: the Arboretum and Purchase Pact, and it's very unlikely that someone manages to burn these card with a referendum. Thus, you may just choose a blocker of the attacker's sect and tap the corresponding card. Again, both cards, when needed, are perfect targets for Sibyl's Tongue. You have also "aggressive combat cards" that are used as a threats: Ivory Bow and two Coma. While the Bow goes without any doubts, Coma needs serious considerations, and I must admit that this deck is a much better place for Coma than a stealth-bleed deck. This deck has really large vampires that can play Coma and still survive opponent's strike without going into torpor, and it has a lot of votes to diablerize all victims of Coma. In this deck Coma is really fearful. As this deck has only 17 Political actions, you may consider this number too low to call it a voting deck, but all these cards, except for Ancient Influence, are very aggressive, so your opponents are going to count them twice :) Core political actions are Banishment and Kine Resources Contested that finely accompany bleeding at stealth which, I guess, is a hallmark of all anti-Malk decks. Primary combo of this deck is Hannibal + Legendary Vampire or Pulse of the Canaille. If you see Legendary Vampire in your starting hand, influence Hannibal first. If you have Sibyl's Tongue, you may prefer Korah or Marie Faucigny first to play Sibyl's Tongue for the Legendary Vampire, but it's realy isn't that crucial. You can spend your Sibyl's Tongue for an urgently needed card (Elysium, Secure Haven etc) and still have a decent chance of getting another Sibyl's Tongue or the needed bleed modifier later in the game. If you fail to make Hannibal legendary, you can play Legendary Vampire later on someone else, as ALL your vampires have capacity 7 or more, and you will eventually find your Pulse of the Canaille that will make Hannibal a terrifying destruction engine. It's hard to predict whether the deck is tournament-viable or not, but IMHO it's at least worth trying. I will appreciate any comments and improvements. 6. THE NIGHTMARES BECOMING REAL (previous "SWEET DREAMS") I will review the ten new cards that are going to be printed in 10th Anniversary Set. Each tin will contain these cards, so everyone will be able to find them. Unsurprisingly, the cards are quite strong, at least some of them, and they will radically change the metagame. Rastacourere +1 stealth Action 1 pool (D) Put this card on a titled vampire. The vampire's title is worth 1 less vote during referendums, and he or she gets -1 stealth when attempting political actions. This vampire's capacity is reduced by 1 (not going below 1). A vampire may have only 1 Rastacourere. Very strong card against voting decks, especially against Prisci, as Priscus with 1 less vote has no votes at all. This card was designed primarily for combat-heavy decks without access to intercept (Brujah, Assamites etc.) or not willing to pack intercept cards. All political actions have +1 stealth by default, but Rastacouriere cancels this bonus, allowing any vampire to block political actions performed by vampire with this card. Obviously, this card would be useless for intercept decks that can easily block any political action. Overall: Combat-oriented decks are stronger, voting decks are weaker. Powerbase: Los Angeles Master: unique location Tap during your discard phase to gain a discard phase action. If you use that discard phase action to discard a card that requires an anarch or a card that makes a vampire an anarch you may untap a ready anarch. Any anarch controlled by another Methuselah may steal this location for his Methuselah as a (D) action. Very good card. Not as good as The Barrens if you have no anarch cards, but really amazing in Anarch decks, especially intercept-oriented ones. Intercept is needed to protect the Powerbase. Looks like intercept decks would prefer this card to The Barrens, as it's much less likely to become contested or stolen. Expect the new generation of Anarch intercept decks with this card. The Mole is a good card, and there is Ian Forestal that can play all anarch cards... Overall: Intercept and aharch decks are stronger. Polaris Coach Vehicle. Haven. 1 blood During your untap phase, move 1 blood from this vampire to the Polaris Coach or burn the Polaris Coach. While this vampire is acting, he or she may burn one counter from the Polaris Coach to get +1 stealth for the current action. During undirected actions and actions that are not directed at this vampire, he or she cannot block or play reaction cards. A minion may have only one haven and only one vehicle. This is a long-awaited "stealth for all" card. The price is so harsh that I doubt it would see play. For the same price you can get Robert Carter that provides +2 bleed! Please don't tell me that you're going to play Repo Men to fetch your Polaris Coaches :) Some weird deck will possibly use it, though... Overall: Won't affect the metagame. Orc of Ulain Unique equipment The ALLY with this equipment cannot be targeted by (D) actions that require AUS, CHI, DOM, PRE, SER. Reactions that require any of those disciplines cost an additional blood while this ally is acting. To play such cards one should have a lot of allies, or at least some precious allies like War Ghouls. Orc of Ulain protects your ally from the most popular anti-ally cards like Entrancement or Far Mastery. It also makes blocking your allies and bouncing their bleed much more expensive, as most of needed cards are AUS and DOM-based reactions. The most tricky usage of this card involves The Grandest Trick itself :) Overall: Offers minor improvement for ally-based decks. Liquidation Master. Do not replace until your next discard phase. Burn seven cards from the top of your library to gain 3 pool. Brilliant card! Who cares about cards in your library if you are going to die? Name another Master card that immediately provides 3 pool without draining blood of your vampires. This card will be most effective combined with a lot of blood-requiring cards, when you cannot drain blood of your minions. Tzimisce, Assamites and Ravnos will appreciate this card. I guess it would be amazing in Smiling Jack decks, Anarch Revolt decks and weenie decks, as such decks don't expect a long game anyway, so they can dump extra cards. Liquidation makes a good combo with Anatole, Prophet of Gehenna. You can look at the top five cards of your library and dump them if you need someting else. Liquidation is also good when you can fetch cards from your ash heap (i.e. Giovanni). Overall: Decks with a lot of blood-expensive cards are stronger. This mostly applies to combat-oriented decks based on Vicissitude, Quietus, Chimerstry etc. New combo decks are possible. Insurance Scam Master Put this card in play. During your turn, you may tap this card and burn X locations you control to gain X pool. The only use of this card I see now is stealing locations that can be stolen with (D) action and burn them, or sacrificing the locations that are going to be stolen by your opponents. But the decks that use such locations usually can defend them, so the card is nearly unplayable. Overall: Slightly improves decks with a lot of locations. Channel 10 Master: unique location 2 pool Tap to give a minion you control +2 intercept for the current action. Not usable on the first action in a minion phase. This card is just another intercept-providing location, but it's the first location that provide whopping +2 intercept. Since the card has NO requirements, it's available to any deck, and it really hoses any decks based on stealth. It's still balanced and "fair" card (especially compared to Bowl of Convergence), since you cannot "sell" your intercept to other players, and you cannot use it on the first action, but the card is very strong. Stealth-based deck needs +3 stealth or "cannot block" effect each turn (Elder Impersonation or Seduction) each turn to compensate for this one card - otherwise you will be limited to one action per turn. Again, this card is best suited for combat-oriented decks that cannot spend a lot of place on intercept cards or have no intercept disciplines, like Brujah. Obviously, Brujah deck with Second Traditions and Channels 10 is likely to block at least some actions and pound the caught vampire hardly. Overall: Combat-oriented decks are much stronger. Intercept decks are stronger, too, as they can pack less intercept cards with Channel 10. Stealth-based decks are seriously hosed. Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter) Unique mortal ally with 2 life 0 strength, 0 bleed. 2 pool Carlton can strike for 1R. He may dodge as a strike once each combat, Charlton has +1 intercept when blocking vampires. During your discard phase you may burn Carlton to burn a vampire who has committed diablerie since your last turn. Yet another "intercept for all" card, as Charlton requires at least +2 stealth for any action. A deck with decent combat abilities will probably kill him, but such decks usually don't pack a lot of stealth. Charlton provides a cheap protection against voting decks and even against stealth decks. It makes Fast Reaction much better, as you can block with expendable Charlton, dodge and make the strong vampire "rush" with Fast Reaction. As the primary benefit of Fast Reaction is the lack of response, this tactics is best suitable for aggressive but fragile strategies like Quietus or Vicissitude. Charlton's second ability seriously hoses all diablerie-based decks, even with Archons like Muaziz. You can suddenly summon him and sacrifice him on the same turn, so any diablerie becomes much more dangerous now. Overall: Diablerie-based decks are seriously hosed. Voting decks without stealth and offensive combat (additional strikes, presses etc.) are hosed as well. Intercept decks are stronger. Combat decks with Auspex and very aggressive strikes but low protection are much stronger due to the Fast Reaction. Caiaphas Smith 1 pool Unique mortal with 2 life 1 strength 0 bleed Caiaphas may strike for 1R damage. Caiaphas get an optional maneuver each combat. Any vampire blocking Caiaphas is burned after the combat (if any). Caiaphas cannot bleed. If he is untapped at the start of your turn, your predator takes control of him. This card is too hard to use. You cannot force opponent to block Caiaphas (at least for now), and he can't perform really dangerous actions to make opponents block it. I guess he can be used to equip something, when you finally get him :) Overall: Won't affect the metagame. Bowl of Convergence Unique equipment. If the bearer is a vampire who has aus, the bearer gets +1 intercept. If the bearer has AUS, he or she can burn 1 blood once during each action to get an additional +1 intercept for the current action. WHAT??? Take a vampire with AUS, play Bowl of Convergence, and the vampire will get permanent +1 intercept with a possibility to get another +1 for a blood? I simply can't believe my eyes. This card doesn't simply "hose" stealth decks, it destroys them! One vampire with inbuilt +1 intercept and AUS + the Bowl is enough to completely eradicate all stealth decks. Carna + Bowl has +2 permanent intercept and she can get +1 more, so only Elder Impersonation and Seduction can push your actions. And she WILL burn blood for +1 intercept, as she would return the blood in combat :( Moreover, she can easily fetch the Bowl with Magic of the Smith. Do you need other examples to call this card broken? Here you are. Take Ladislas Toth, or Sascha Vykos, or Meshenka, or Lazverinus, play Eternal Vigilance and the Bowl. Untap, block, then untap and block again... Steal blood in combat with Theft of Vitae or Kraken's Kiss. Just another Wall deck? No, since there would be enough space for some "primary" cards like bleed modifiers, as the deck would need much less intercept cards. Now, imagine the dreaded Bowl on the Anneke that just played Alastor for Assault Rifle. She would quickly intercept and dispatch all prey's vampires... again, the key of improvement is increased space for combat and bleed cards that would replace intercept cards. One Second Tradition + the permanent Bowl can easily replace 3-4 "lesser" cards like Forced Awakening, Spirit's Touch, Precognition or Enhanced Senses. Add Channel 10 to the mix, and it would become the last nail for the coffin of stealth decks. Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. Stealth decks are doomed. All decks should contain at least one combat strategy to be effective. Malkavians antitribu are DEAD. ************************ RIP ****************************

[snip excellent NL] Hi Ector, Excellent read! Especially since I have myself been delving into the political possibilities of the !Malkavians. But as for vote-pushing, nothing beats Derange! In the deck I build a while ago after liquidating a couple of decks I use it to strip camarilla Princes etc. of their votes making them !Malks and Maris does it vice versa. As a significant side effect it slows down the table which is a good thing for this type of deck. I don't have the deck with me but it is somewhere along the lines of this: Sanctum Sanatorium Crypt: 12 2 Hannibal 1 Hannibal Adv 3 Maris Schreck 1 Korah 1 Quenton King III basic 1 Marie Faucigny (whatsername?) 1 The Colonel 1 Uncle George 1 General Perfio Dios Library: 90 Master:15 1 Gift of Experience 1 Direct Intervention 2 Dreams of the Sphinx 1 Powerbase: Madrid 1 Giant's Blood 1 Hungry Coyote 1 Creepshow Casino 1 Church of the Order...bla bla 2 Blood Doll 4 Minion Tap Reaction:16 7 Telepathic Misdirection 6 Wake with Evening's Freshness 3 Voice of Madness Action: 18 2 The Call 3 Sybyl's Tongue 9 Derange 5 Madman's Quill Political :13 7 Kine Resources Contested 2 Dramatic Upheaval 4 Parity Shift Action mods : 14 2 Eyes of Chaos 4 Lost in Crowds 2 Faceless Night 2 Elder Impersonation 2 Forgotten Labyrinth 2 Spying Mission Combat: 8 2 Behind You! 5 Gemini's Mirror 1 Reality Mirror Combo:6 4 Swallowed by the Night 2 Deny I haven't had the time to play it yet abd it'll probably die horribly against heavy combat. Whaddaya think....

Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.0412...@posting.google.com>... > 6. THE NIGHTMARES BECOMING REAL (previous "SWEET DREAMS") > > Rastacouere As someone noted elsewhere, Rastacouere'ing Anson stops him from being a legitimate Golconda target... > > > Polaris Coach > Vehicle. Haven. > 1 blood > During your untap phase, move 1 blood from this vampire to the Polaris > Coach or burn the Polaris Coach. > > While this vampire is acting, he or she may burn one counter from the > Polaris Coach to get +1 stealth for the current action. During > undirected actions and actions that are not directed at this vampire, > he or she cannot block or play reaction cards. A minion may have only > one haven and only one vehicle. > > This is a long-awaited "stealth for all" card. The price is so harsh > that I doubt it would see play. For the same price you can get Robert > Carter that provides +2 bleed! Please don't tell me that you're going > to play Repo Men to fetch your Polaris Coaches :) Some weird deck will > possibly use it, though... > Overall: Won't affect the metagame. I heartily disagree. You can get _A_ Robert Carter for +2 bleed - but you can give ALL your minions a Polaris Coach. I fully expect to see some decks in the future to take full advantage of it - like a Tremere deck that spends a couple of turns Magic of the Smithing coaches onto all the minions and stockpiling counters, before swarm-bleeding with every minion at Polaris-stealth. Permanent stealth is often a very powerful thing. If anything, I expect that this card will make even more people play with Palatial Estates. > Orc of Ulain > The most tricky usage of this card involves The Grandest Trick itself > :) Heh! Hadn't thought of that. > Insurance Scam > Master > Put this card in play. During your turn, you may tap this card and > burn X locations you control to gain X pool. > > The only use of this card I see now is stealing locations that can be > stolen with (D) action and burn them, or sacrificing the locations > that are going to be stolen by your opponents. But the decks that use > such locations usually can defend them, so the card is nearly > unplayable. > Overall: Slightly improves decks with a lot of locations. Other uses you missed: Loquipment decks with any sort of ash-heap recycling like Necromancy, Reinforcements, Waste Management, etc. Decks that want to include multiple copies of a cheap unique location, like all the decks that include 4 or 5 Info Highways (to try to get one out on the first turn). Subsequent drawings can now be disposed of by Scamming the first copy and playing the next one, gaining a pool in the process. (Yeah, it turns the extra copies into Ascendances, but that's better than leaving them as dead-cards.) Storage Annex. Cull your hand AND gain pool. Disputed Territory in vote decks, if you think you're in an environment that plays locations. A nice counter to "My predator just brought out Arika and I'm playing with locations" - that NEVER happens! :P > Yet another "intercept for all" card, as Charlton requires at least +2 > stealth for any action. Well, for the first action, sure. It's very hard to use an ally to block multiple actions in a single turn, what with the difficulty in untapping them. > Bowl of Convergence > Unique equipment. > If the bearer is a vampire who has aus, the bearer gets +1 intercept. > If the bearer has AUS, he or she can burn 1 blood once during each > action to get an additional +1 intercept for the current action. > > One vampire with inbuilt +1 intercept and AUS + the Bowl is enough to > completely eradicate all stealth decks. Carna + Bowl has +2 permanent > intercept and she can get +1 more, so only Elder Impersonation and > Seduction can push your actions. Only Elder Impersonation and Seduction... and Beast Meld, and Horrific Countenance, and Daring the Dawn, and Day Op, and Blanket of Night, and Call the Hungry Dead, and Siren's Lure, and Flaming Candle, and Sunrise Service, and Grandest Trick, and Psychomachia, and a whole bunch of pre-arranged cards like Blood Bond, and (conditionally) Approximation of Loyalty or Crocodile's Tongue or Deed the Heart's Desire or Sleeping Mind. Just to name a few. Also, your actions can be pushed with MORE STEALTH, something many stealth decks do not have any problem generating. Ever see the Ventrue w/OBF deck going 'to start with, Arika's vote is Forgotten Labyrinth'ed up to +4 stealth with a single stealth card, and i've got more in my hand'? I got ousted one round of this year's NAC when my intercept deck was incapable of matching the _sixth_ point of stealth on a vote called by my predator's vampire. > And she WILL burn blood for +1 > intercept, as she would return the blood in combat :( Assuming the deck she's blocking cannot S:CE or trump her combat in any way, sure. > Now, imagine the dreaded Bowl on the Anneke that just played Alastor > for Assault Rifle. She would quickly intercept and dispatch all prey's > vampires... again, the key of improvement is increased space for > combat and bleed cards that would replace intercept cards. No argument here. Nasty, nasty deck. > One Second Tradition + the permanent Bowl can easily > replace 3-4 "lesser" cards like Forced Awakening, Spirit's Touch, > Precognition or Enhanced Senses. Add Channel 10 to the mix, and it > would become the last nail for the coffin of stealth decks. Cause stealth decks never win these days, huh? > Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. Stealth > decks are doomed. All decks should contain at least one combat > strategy to be effective. Malkavians antitribu are DEAD. Or the !Malk deck can simply pack a Bowl or two of its own to plan to contest it, just as many decks pack a Fame or two now to contest against Rush decks. It is unique, after all. -John Flournoy

[ quoted text not captured ] Deck yourself (Potchtli Twister, Liquidation, whatever) with Insurance Scam and Waste Management Operation in play. Play Powerbase: Montreal every turn and blow it up every turn after using it. The fact that the card can be used any time during one's turn seems pretty strong. Steal someone's Rack and burn it for a pool. No more "well, he'll just steal it back." Matt Morgan

time...@mail.com wrote: > [snip excellent NL] > > Hi Ector, > > Excellent read! Especially since I have myself been >delving into the political possibilities of the !>Malkavians. But as for vote-pushing, nothing beats > Derange! Never thought about Derange in a voting decks... thanks for the idea! Unfortunately, the Princes will regain their titles when they move Derange to another vampires. Thus, I don't think that the idea is really good. Ector

[ quoted text not captured ] However with enough of them one can flood the table with them. And while Princes can tuy to get rid of them, it takes them an action. Succes in VTES is somewhat measured in the number of succesfull actions a player can take. Derange reduces this number and is still blockable. With 6-8 base votes of your own 1-2 deranges are going to hurt any Cammie deck IMHO. I'll try it sometime and let you know. T

John Flournoy wrote: > Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.0412...@posting.google.com>... > > As someone noted elsewhere, Rastacouere'ing Anson stops him from being > a legitimate Golconda target... Really. Never saw the dreaded deck, but it really deserves death :) > > Polaris Coach > > Overall: Won't affect the metagame. > > I heartily disagree. You can get _A_ Robert Carter for +2 bleed - but > you can give ALL your minions a Polaris Coach. I fully expect to see > some decks in the future to take full advantage of it - like a Tremere > deck that spends a couple of turns Magic of the Smithing coaches onto > all the minions and stockpiling counters, before swarm-bleeding with > every minion at Polaris-stealth. > > Permanent stealth is often a very powerful thing. If anything, I > expect that this card will make even more people play with Palatial > Estates. This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents you from draining the blood yourselves. Moreover, you have to spend blood even if you don't need stealth on this turn. This is a huge disadvantage. Somebody can wish to drain blood off your vampire with the Coach just to force you to burn it. And +1 stealth isn't very much, especially nowadays :( > > Insurance Scam > > Master > > Put this card in play. During your turn, you may tap this card and > > burn X locations you control to gain X pool. > > > > The only use of this card I see now is stealing locations that can be > > stolen with (D) action and burn them, or sacrificing the locations > > that are going to be stolen by your opponents. But the decks that use > > such locations usually can defend them, so the card is nearly > > unplayable. > > Overall: Slightly improves decks with a lot of locations. > > Other uses you missed: > > Loquipment decks with any sort of ash-heap recycling like Necromancy, > Reinforcements, Waste Management, etc. With Liquidation to reduce library size, maybe. But I don't consider the combo really powerful. > Decks that want to include multiple copies of a cheap unique location, > like all the decks that include 4 or 5 Info Highways (to try to get > one out on the first turn). Subsequent drawings can now be disposed of > by Scamming the first copy and playing the next one, gaining a pool in > the process. (Yeah, it turns the extra copies into Ascendances, but > that's better than leaving them as dead-cards.) You are completely right here. Even with 2 Info Highways Scamming it when it isn't needed anymore is better than nothing. Four Info Highways definitely justify one Insurance Scam in the deck. > Storage Annex. Cull your hand AND gain pool. And waste a master phase :) Not a good example, IMHO. > Disputed Territory in vote decks, if you think you're in > an environment that plays locations. When I play Disputed Territory, I usually want to keep the location, not to sacrifice it. But sometimes pool is really more important. > A nice counter to "My predator just brought out Arika and I'm playing > with locations" - that NEVER happens! :P Well, you just get some extra pool for your locations, nothing more. Arika will quickly negate the pool gain with her +2 bleed :) > > Yet another "intercept for all" card, as Charlton requires at least +2 > > stealth for any action. > > Well, for the first action, sure. It's very hard to use an ally to > block multiple actions in a single turn, what with the difficulty in > untapping them. For any action, if the stealth deck wants to pass all its actions unblocked. Fail to get +2 stealth to any action, and Charlton will block it. So, this tiny 2-pool ally either blocks one action per turn or forces to waste a lot of stealth cards. > > Bowl of Convergence <skipped> > > One vampire with inbuilt +1 intercept and AUS + the Bowl is enough to > > completely eradicate all stealth decks. Carna + Bowl has +2 permanent > > intercept and she can get +1 more, so only Elder Impersonation and > > Seduction can push your actions. > > Only Elder Impersonation and Seduction... and Beast Meld, and Horrific > Countenance, and Daring the Dawn, and Day Op, and Blanket of Night, > and Call the Hungry Dead, and Siren's Lure, and Flaming Candle, and > Sunrise Service, and Grandest Trick, and Psychomachia, and a whole > bunch of pre-arranged cards like Blood Bond, and (conditionally) > Approximation of Loyalty or Crocodile's Tongue or Deed the Heart's > Desire or Sleeping Mind. > > Just to name a few. Let's count only cards playable in large quantities, OK? Beast Meld - need ANI and PRO, costs 2 blood. Horrific Countenance - based on pro, costs 4 blood. Daring the Dawn, Day Op, Sunrise Service - your vampire is going to torpor Blanket of Night - based on OBT. Call the Hungry Dead - need NEC Siren's Lure - needs mel & ends with a combat anyway Flaming Candle - only once per game Grandest Trick - Kiasyd only & costs 2 blood Psychomachia - needs dai. Now, try to invent a crypt that would be able to play at least one of these cards for each action like the current stealth-based decks do. It's impossible. The best I can suggest is DOM/OBF deck with Elder Impersonations and Seductions. Signet of King Saul is also very helpful, but it doesn't affect Carna :( > Also, your actions can be pushed with MORE STEALTH, something many > stealth decks do not have any problem generating. Ever see the Ventrue > w/OBF deck going 'to start with, Arika's vote is Forgotten > Labyrinth'ed up to +4 stealth with a single stealth card, and i've got > more in my hand'? I got ousted one round of this year's NAC when my > intercept deck was incapable of matching the _sixth_ point of stealth > on a vote called by my predator's vampire. Holy cow! Do you think that stealth decks have infinite stealth? Stealth +6 is theoretically possible, but it requires a very-very good draw (BTW: stealth player doesn't know the top cards of his library). Intercept deck with Bowl of Convergence and Channel 10 can get +4 intercept without any additional cards. Stealth can push one action with a luck... then hunt for stealth cards for several turns. > > And she WILL burn blood for +1 > > intercept, as she would return the blood in combat :( > > Assuming the deck she's blocking cannot S:CE or trump her combat in > any way, sure. This is the point: stealth decks cannot trump her combat, since they have to pack a lot of stealth cards. They cannot pack a lot of S:CE either. > > One Second Tradition + the permanent Bowl can easily > > replace 3-4 "lesser" cards like Forced Awakening, Spirit's Touch, > > Precognition or Enhanced Senses. Add Channel 10 to the mix, and it > > would become the last nail for the coffin of stealth decks. > > Cause stealth decks never win these days, huh? Cause stealth deck are doomed NOW, when Channel 10 and the Bowl are available. > Or the !Malk deck can simply pack a Bowl or two of its own to plan to > contest it, just as many decks pack a Fame or two now to contest > against Rush decks. It is unique, after all. > > -John Flournoy Oh, it's probably the single hope. Pack a lot of Sibyl's Tongues just to fetch the Bowl. And I should get it first, or the vampire already having the Bowl will block it. Really hard times for the stealth decks... Ector

Matthew T. Morgan wrote: > Deck yourself (Potchtli Twister, Liquidation, whatever) with Insurance > Scam and Waste Management Operation in play. Play Powerbase: Montreal > every turn and blow it up every turn after using it. Are you going to really use this combo? Playing without cards isn't too pleasant. > The fact that the card can be used any time during one's turn seems pretty > strong. Steal someone's Rack and burn it for a pool. No more "well, > he'll just steal it back." > > Matt Morgan This is probably the best usage of Insurance Scam, except for sacrificing Info Highways. You cannot rely on opponent's locations, though, but you can play the "fragile" locations yourself. Who would steal your Rack if you are ready to sacrifice it for a pool? :) Ector

> > Permanent stealth is often a very powerful thing. If anything, I > > expect that this card will make even more people play with Palatial > > Estates. > This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents you from > draining the blood yourselves. Moreover, you have to spend blood even > if you don't need stealth on this turn. This is a huge disadvantage. > Somebody can wish to drain blood off your vampire with the Coach just > to force you to burn it. > And +1 stealth isn't very much, especially nowadays :( First point: Is there anything preventing you from burning more than one counter on a given action? There's no 'during X do Y' clause, so I'm not sure. Second: +1 stealth isn't much, true. However, you made a very good argument about how the Bowl of Convergence is a powerful card because it lets an intercept deck devote card slots to other things; that exact same argument holds true for the Coach and stealth decks. Knowing that your first point of stealth each turn will be cardless lets you free up card slots for other things. Also, you say 'This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents you from draining the blood yourselves', which I find very ironic in a !Malk thread - a lot of effective Kindred Spirits/Stealth !Malk decks don't even include ways to pull blood off the vamps in the first place, because those cards don't directly help bleed out the table. > > > Insurance Scam > > > The only use of this card I see now is stealing locations that can > be > > > stolen with (D) action and burn them, or sacrificing the locations > > > that are going to be stolen by your opponents. But the decks that > use > > > such locations usually can defend them, so the card is nearly > > > unplayable. > > > Overall: Slightly improves decks with a lot of locations. > > > > Other uses you missed: > > > > Loquipment decks with any sort of ash-heap recycling like Necromancy, > > Reinforcements, Waste Management, etc. > With Liquidation to reduce library size, maybe. But I don't consider > the combo really powerful. I never said it was powerful; I was just offering uses for the card beyond the 'only' use you could find for it. > > > Storage Annex. Cull your hand AND gain pool. > And waste a master phase :) Not a good example, IMHO. Again, not claiming it's powerful, just a way that the card can be used to some benefit. (I wouldn't use it this way, but someone else suggested that they would and happily.) > > Disputed Territory in vote decks, if you think you're in > > an environment that plays locations. > When I play Disputed Territory, I usually want to keep the location, > not to sacrifice it. But sometimes pool is really more important. And sometimes denying your opponent a powerful location is a good thing even if you can't/don't intend to use it. DT'ing an Art Museum away from a Toreador deck isn't a bad thing, for instance, even if you don't play any Toreador yourself. > > > Yet another "intercept for all" card, as Charlton requires at least > +2 > > > stealth for any action. > > > > Well, for the first action, sure. It's very hard to use an ally to > > block multiple actions in a single turn, what with the difficulty in > > untapping them. > For any action, if the stealth deck wants to pass all its actions > unblocked. Fail to get +2 stealth to any action, and Charlton will > block it. So, this tiny 2-pool ally either blocks one action per turn > or forces to waste a lot of stealth cards. Yeah.. alternately, a Loyal Street Gang on a Sport Bike does the same thing for the same pool (in terms of making you generate 2 stealth; obviously the combats are different) and I haven't heard people wailing to the heavens that this was terribly broken before. He's certainly not going to be substantially scarier than the existing Auspex-weenie-with-a-Bike/Atonement deck archetype that occasionally crushes games. > > > Bowl of Convergence > > Let's count only cards playable in large quantities, OK? > Blanket of Night - based on OBT. > Call the Hungry Dead - need NEC > Siren's Lure - needs mel & ends with a combat anyway > Psychomachia - needs dai. Are you specifically saying these cards don't help !Malks? It's not like !Malks can easily use Seduction.. > Now, try to invent a crypt that would be able to play at least one of > these cards for each action like the current stealth-based decks do. > It's impossible. The best I can suggest is DOM/OBF deck with Elder > Impersonations and Seductions. Signet of King Saul is also very > helpful, but it doesn't affect Carna :( Again, I'm guessing you mean strictly for !Malks, as it's _trivial_ to make a crypt that can use things like Call the Hungry Dead/Seduction consistently - like every Giovanni don't block/bleed deck ever built since CtHD was printed. > > Also, your actions can be pushed with MORE STEALTH, something many > > stealth decks do not have any problem generating. Ever see the > Ventrue > > w/OBF deck going 'to start with, Arika's vote is Forgotten > > Labyrinth'ed up to +4 stealth with a single stealth card, and i've > got > > more in my hand'? I got ousted one round of this year's NAC when my > > intercept deck was incapable of matching the _sixth_ point of stealth > > on a vote called by my predator's vampire. > Holy cow! Do you think that stealth decks have infinite stealth? > Stealth +6 is theoretically possible, but it requires a very-very good > draw (BTW: stealth player doesn't know the top cards of his library). On an undirected action, like a vote, it requires only THREE CARDS: any vote, Forgotten Labyrinth, Lost in Crowds. +6 stealth, done. +6 stealth out of an OBF vote deck is not just 'theoretically possible', it's pretty easy to arrange. (I do agree that +6 stealth is a lot harder to arrange for a stealth-bleed deck that's using directed actions, but I wasn't discussing those with my statement.) > > > And she WILL burn blood for +1 > > > intercept, as she would return the blood in combat :( > > > > Assuming the deck she's blocking cannot S:CE or trump her combat in > > any way, sure. > This is the point: stealth decks cannot trump her combat, since they > have to pack a lot of stealth cards. They cannot pack a lot of S:CE > either. As noted above: Things like the Polaris Coach reduce the number of stealth cards you 'have' to pack, just as the Bowl reduces the number of intercept cards. Here's something else you might not have noticed. You specifically mention Carna with the Bowl as a nightmare situation for you. Ever see Carna with a Corpse Minion? Carna can actually already get MORE intercept from a Corpse Minion than she can with the Bowl. Slap a Sport Bike on her, and she's paid 1 extra pool and 1 extra card to be BETTER equipped for intercept than what the Bowl provides, and the Corpse Minion/Sport Bike combo has been available to Tremere for many years. Yes, the Bowl is a very nasty card. Yes, in a deck built around it, it's pretty powerful. But it's not some magical card that does something that has never been doable before that suddenly trumps a whole strategy for the first time. > Ector -John Flournoy

"John Flournoy" <carn...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:e904e39f.04120...@posting.google.com... [Polaris Coach] > First point: Is there anything preventing you from burning more than > one counter on a given action? There's no 'during X do Y' clause, so > I'm not sure. No. http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/4cf6d38e3881b381 -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) writes: > Surely, stealth decks still have a change to push undirected action, > but stealth-bleed is dying. !Malks were the primary > stealth-bleeders... and I really don't see any viable strategies for > them now. Okay. I will now predict: <Dons a funny robe and a pointy hat> "The Lasombra's Tournament Winning Deck Archive will have a new Malkavian Antitribu deck - after Bowl of Convergence becomes legal, but before summer." <Takes off robe and hat> If I'm found to be wrong, you have a right to complain about the death of the Anti-Malks. -- hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience, iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey

Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.0412...@posting.google.com>... > Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. ...and still get stomped by dedicated combat and bleed/vote & bruise decks, trumped by block fails combos (Seduction + Call of the Hungry Dead or Elder Impersonation or Blanket of Night, etc) and hosed by block-punishing cards like Dominion, Teneberous Form, Crocodile's Tongue and Aching Beauty. Scissors, meet rock. > Stealth decks are doomed. ...in the instance when they're sitting next to wall decks. Maybe. > All decks should contain at least one combat > strategy to be effective. Probably good advice. Note, however, that "cross your fingers and hope" is a reasonable combat strategy for a really focused bleed deck. > Malkavians antitribu are DEAD. > ************************ RIP **************************** Maybe they're just playing dead.

emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.04120...@posting.google.com>... > Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.0412...@posting.google.com>... > > Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. > > ...and still get stomped by dedicated combat and bleed/vote & bruise > decks, trumped by block fails combos (Seduction + Call of the Hungry > Dead or Elder Impersonation or Blanket of Night, etc) and hosed by > block-punishing cards like Dominion, Teneberous Form, Crocodile's > Tongue and Aching Beauty. > > Scissors, meet rock. They have mich more space for combat cards & bleed cards now, with such brilliant permanent intercept. Thus, they don't fear to block most decks. Block-punishing cards don't seem to be efficient if the intercept really can regain its blood (like Tremeres) or torporize the acting vampire. And they are likely to do so now with increased number of combat cards. "Block-fails" are good, but they don't save against Channel 10 + Bowl. You declare an action with Seduction on my Bowled vamp, then I'll block you with another vampire and Channel 10. So, a stealth deck will need BOTH "block-fail" cards and stealth cards, and they are going to lose extra slots for it. Now, what deck are you calling "rock"? > > Stealth decks are doomed. > > ...in the instance when they're sitting next to wall decks. Maybe. If you call any deck with Channel 10 and the Bowl a "wall deck". Any deck with Auspex can use them. And I really don't see a reason NOT to include these cards. The only hope is the fact that they are going to be contested frequently. > > All decks should contain at least one combat > > strategy to be effective. > > Probably good advice. Note, however, that "cross your fingers and > hope" is a reasonable combat strategy for a really focused bleed deck. There are no more such thing as a "focused bleed deck". Intercept can block it.So nobody can cross his fingers... and !Malks cannot do anything.

carn...@gmail.com (John Flournoy) wrote in message news:<e904e39f.04120...@posting.google.com>... > > > Permanent stealth is often a very powerful thing. If anything, I > > > expect that this card will make even more people play with Palatial > > > Estates. > > This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents you from > > draining the blood yourselves. Moreover, you have to spend blood even > > if you don't need stealth on this turn. This is a huge disadvantage. > > Somebody can wish to drain blood off your vampire with the Coach just > > to force you to burn it. > > And +1 stealth isn't very much, especially nowadays :( > > First point: Is there anything preventing you from burning more than > one counter on a given action? There's no 'during X do Y' clause, so > I'm not sure. The card text states: "While this vamp. is acting, he or she may burn ONE counter from the PC to get +1 stealth for the current action". If this was juts a misrepresentation, than the Coach is clearly a better card than I thought, but the price is still too big. > Second: +1 stealth isn't much, true. However, you made a very good > argument about how the Bowl of Convergence is a powerful card because > it lets an intercept deck devote card slots to other things; that > exact same argument holds true for the Coach and stealth decks. > Knowing that your first point of stealth each turn will be cardless > lets you free up card slots for other things. Unfortunately, you will have to compensate the blood drain somehow. So, your "slot gain" won't be significant. > Also, you say 'This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents > you from draining the blood yourselves', which I find very ironic in a > !Malk thread - a lot of effective Kindred Spirits/Stealth !Malk decks > don't even include ways to pull blood off the vamps in the first > place, because those cards don't directly help bleed out the table. AFAIK, each S&B deck has at least 4 Blood Dolls. It has to be aggressive and influence vampires as quickly as possible, so it needs to regain pool somehow. Blood Dolls are also extremely useful to feed an empty vampire to prevent hunting. Some heavier decks even use Minion Taps. Kindred Spirits are not enough, and they won't bring you anything if you get blocked, which is very likely to happen now. > > > Disputed Territory in vote decks, if you think you're in > > > an environment that plays locations. > > When I play Disputed Territory, I usually want to keep the location, > > not to sacrifice it. But sometimes pool is really more important. > > And sometimes denying your opponent a powerful location is a good > thing even if you can't/don't intend to use it. DT'ing an Art Museum > away from a Toreador deck isn't a bad thing, for instance, even if you > don't play any Toreador yourself. Sure, but you don't NEED to sac it. > > > > Yet another "intercept for all" card, as Charlton requires at least > +2 > > > > stealth for any action. > > > > > > Well, for the first action, sure. It's very hard to use an ally to > > > block multiple actions in a single turn, what with the difficulty in > > > untapping them. > > For any action, if the stealth deck wants to pass all its actions > > unblocked. Fail to get +2 stealth to any action, and Charlton will > > block it. So, this tiny 2-pool ally either blocks one action per turn > > or forces to waste a lot of stealth cards. > > Yeah.. alternately, a Loyal Street Gang on a Sport Bike does the same > thing for the same pool (in terms of making you generate 2 stealth; > obviously the combats are different) and I haven't heard people > wailing to the heavens that this was terribly broken before. He's > certainly not going to be substantially scarier than the existing > Auspex-weenie-with-a-Bike/Atonement deck archetype that occasionally > crushes games. Look, you are far more experienced than me, so I wonder, why do you adduce such weak arguments? Equipment is good, but you have to find it and successfully play it. How many Loyal Street Gangs and Bikes will you use, and what are your chances to get the combo in play? And would you waste a Bike on the Gang knowing that the Gang cannot dodge and is going to be killed? Charlton is extremely good, and your combo is unplayable. > > > > Bowl of Convergence > > > > Let's count only cards playable in large quantities, OK? > > Blanket of Night - based on OBT. > > Call the Hungry Dead - need NEC > > Siren's Lure - needs mel & ends with a combat anyway > > Psychomachia - needs dai. > > Are you specifically saying these cards don't help !Malks? It's not > like !Malks can easily use Seduction.. !Malks can regularly use only Elder Impersonation and the Signet (and, possibly, Forgotten Labyrinth). Considering the fact that they are weak in combat, I'm calling them dead now. > > Now, try to invent a crypt that would be able to play at least one of > > these cards for each action like the current stealth-based decks do. > > It's impossible. The best I can suggest is DOM/OBF deck with Elder > > Impersonations and Seductions. Signet of King Saul is also very > > helpful, but it doesn't affect Carna :( > > Again, I'm guessing you mean strictly for !Malks, as it's _trivial_ to > make a crypt that can use things like Call the Hungry Dead/Seduction > consistently - like every Giovanni don't block/bleed deck ever built > since CtHD was printed. As I posted, "don't block" decks are still possible, but stealth decks aren't. The best available stealthing strategy now is Elder Impersonation + Seduction + some stealth, which is really not available to !Malks. Malks of 1-2 groups are still alive. > > Holy cow! Do you think that stealth decks have infinite stealth? > > Stealth +6 is theoretically possible, but it requires a very-very good > > draw (BTW: stealth player doesn't know the top cards of his library). > > On an undirected action, like a vote, it requires only THREE CARDS: > any vote, Forgotten Labyrinth, Lost in Crowds. +6 stealth, done. +6 > stealth out of an OBF vote deck is not just 'theoretically possible', > it's pretty easy to arrange. > > (I do agree that +6 stealth is a lot harder to arrange for a > stealth-bleed deck that's using directed actions, but I wasn't > discussing those with my statement.) Surely, Forgotten Labyrinth is good. But Carna with the Bowl and Channel 10 can get +5 intercept WITHOUT any additional cards. And Anneke with the Bowl, Channel 10 and Second Tradition will block your +6 stealth. Surely, stealth decks still have a change to push undirected action, but stealth-bleed is dying. !Malks were the primary stealth-bleeders... and I really don't see any viable strategies for them now. > > This is the point: stealth decks cannot trump her combat, since they > > have to pack a lot of stealth cards. They cannot pack a lot of S:CE > > either. > > As noted above: Things like the Polaris Coach reduce the number of > stealth cards you 'have' to pack, just as the Bowl reduces the number > of intercept cards. As I mentioned above, you'll have to compensate for the blood loss. And Malkavian without blood can be killed even by Embrace. > Here's something else you might not have noticed. You specifically > mention Carna with the Bowl as a nightmare situation for you. > > Ever see Carna with a Corpse Minion? Carna can actually already get > MORE intercept from a Corpse Minion than she can with the Bowl. Slap a > Sport Bike on her, and she's paid 1 extra pool and 1 extra card to be > BETTER equipped for intercept than what the Bowl provides, and the > Corpse Minion/Sport Bike combo has been available to Tremere for many > years. Corpse Minion can be killed, it costs 1 pool, and it cannot be fetched with Magic of the Smith, so it can easily be blocked. > Yes, the Bowl is a very nasty card. Yes, in a deck built around it, > it's pretty powerful. But it's not some magical card that does > something that has never been doable before that suddenly trumps a > whole strategy for the first time. It really kills !Malkavian stealth-bleed. Dom/Obf decks may still survive with added Seductions, but Dementation provides only bleed. Ector

> Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. Stealth > decks are doomed. All decks should contain at least one combat > strategy to be effective. Malkavians antitribu are DEAD. > > ************************ RIP **************************** A bit melodramatic don't you think? Stealth decks are NOT doomed. Malkavian Antitribu are NOT dead. Intercept decks are not Impenetrable. The world is not flat, and the moon is not made of cheese! --> J "Fry crack corn, and I don't care, Leela crack corn, I still don't care, Bender crack corn and he is great; Take that you stupid corn!" grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com to email me

On 3 Dec 2004, Ector wrote: > Intercept obviously becomes much stronger, so stealth decks are hosed. Are you trying to make this group go crazy? There's never been any limit to the number of Raven Spies a minion can have. It's always been true that permanent intercept will overcome stealth in the long run. Stealth decks get by with speed, block denial, running their prey out of Wake (not intercept) and the fact that intercept is a hard strategy to win with so it's not always played. You seem to have come around on the ideas that !Malks have no combat defense and can't vote well. Wait a while and watch. The Bowl will go in many bad decks and a few good ones. Stealth bleed will still reign supreme. And put Elder Impersonation in your deck already! Matt Morgan

Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>... > carn...@gmail.com (John Flournoy) wrote in message news:<e904e39f.04120...@posting.google.com>... > The card text states: "While this vamp. is acting, he or she may burn > ONE > counter from the PC to get +1 stealth for the current action". If this > was juts a misrepresentation, than the Coach is clearly a better card > than I thought, but the price is still too big. LSJ has confirmed that it's use as many times as you can pay counters for, so that helps. Yeah, if it was just once, it'd be weaker. > > Second: +1 stealth isn't much, true. However, you made a very good > > argument about how the Bowl of Convergence is a powerful card because > > it lets an intercept deck devote card slots to other things; that > > exact same argument holds true for the Coach and stealth decks. > > Knowing that your first point of stealth each turn will be cardless > > lets you free up card slots for other things. > Unfortunately, you will have to compensate the blood drain somehow. > So, your "slot gain" won't be significant. How about putting one or two Festivo's in? One thought I had was how useful Capitalist would be. A hunting ground pays for a coach. Paying for a singular coach should be relatively easy to offset. If I'm going to pack _multiple_ coaches in a !Malk deck, I'm planning to USE the vamps with them, preferably every turn, to swarm-bleed out my prey and so on, more efficiently than I might without them, and for that sort of deck, I'm trying to win as fast as I can. > > Also, you say 'This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents > > you from draining the blood yourselves', which I find very ironic in a > > !Malk thread - a lot of effective Kindred Spirits/Stealth !Malk decks > > don't even include ways to pull blood off the vamps in the first > > place, because those cards don't directly help bleed out the table. > AFAIK, each S&B deck has at least 4 Blood Dolls. It has to be > aggressive and influence vampires as quickly as possible, so it needs > to regain pool somehow. Blood Dolls are also extremely useful to feed > an empty vampire to prevent hunting. Some heavier decks even use > Minion Taps. Kindred Spirits are not enough, and they won't bring you > anything if you get blocked, which is very likely to happen now. Let me direct your attention to the !Malk section of The Lasombra's tournament-winning deck archive, where if you look at one of the decks labelled 'Fast Eddie/y' or Kamel's "Kindred Spirit", which demonstrate a fairly common !Malk pure-stealth-bleed deck type, you'll see that these decks run with only 2 Blood Dolls and no other means of moving blood on or off of vampires or gaining blood onto their vamps. And they win. Other variations on this deck have made numerous final tables in the last couple of years. These sorts of decks currently throw 30-40 stealth cards to back up the 12-15 Kindred Spirits they bleed with, and that IS generally enough to gain enough pool to survive. (These decks obviously are pretty extremely focused.) ------- (On to discussing Charlton): > Look, you are far more experienced than me, so I wonder, why do you > adduce such weak arguments? Equipment is good, but you have to find it > and successfully play it. How many Loyal Street Gangs and Bikes will > you use, and what are your chances to get the combo in play? And would > you waste a Bike on the Gang knowing that the Gang cannot dodge and is > going to be killed? Charlton is extremely good, and your combo is > unplayable. My argument probably shouldn't have used a weak, specific example, so I'll use a stronger generic one. Charlton is good, yes. Charlton is not, however, The Most Shut-Down Thing Ever, as he'll be hard-pressed to block more than one action a turn, generally won't ever hurt the minion he blocks, and most importantly, is FAR from the only 'cheap blocker that it's hard to hurt' that has ever been seen on a table. Yes, he's good. Yes, he's a really good blocker. No, the existence of Charlton doesn't suddenly make stealth-bleeding impossible. But then, you are looking at him with an eye on !Malks specifically, and yeah, for a !Malk point of view he's definitely pretty intimidating. > > > > > Bowl of Convergence > > !Malks can regularly use only Elder Impersonation and the Signet (and, > possibly, Forgotten Labyrinth). Considering the fact that they are > weak in combat, I'm calling them dead now. Feel free. It'll definitely be interesting to see if people (or the meta-game) proves you wrong. > As I posted, "don't block" decks are still possible, but stealth decks > aren't. The best available stealthing strategy now is Elder > Impersonation + Seduction + some stealth, which is really not > available to !Malks. Malks of 1-2 groups are still alive. Again, I'll be interested to see if people can prove you wrong with !Malk stealth decks. > Surely, Forgotten Labyrinth is good. But Carna with the Bowl and > Channel 10 can get +5 intercept WITHOUT any additional cards. And > Anneke with the Bowl, Channel 10 and Second Tradition will block your > +6 stealth. > > Surely, stealth decks still have a change to push undirected action, > but stealth-bleed is dying. !Malks were the primary > stealth-bleeders... and I really don't see any viable strategies for > them now. I disagree; perhaps I'll have to play !Malks some once my playgroup gets 10th Box Sets to see how it works in practice. > Ector -John Flournoy

h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid (Janne Hägglund) wrote in message news:<m3fz2ne...@nothung.homelinux.net>... > I will now predict: > > <Dons a funny robe and a pointy hat> > > "The Lasombra's Tournament Winning Deck Archive will have a new Malkavian > Antitribu deck - after Bowl of Convergence becomes legal, but before summer." > > <Takes off robe and hat> I'd be happy if this would really happen. I will gladly devote the whole newsletter to the new deck, I will praise its creator etc. etc. It's like the second coming of Messiah :) Many of us would be happy if this would happen, but who really believes in this? :) > If I'm found to be wrong, you have a right to complain about the death of > the Anti-Malks. Some things are just obvious. If you'd fall from the Eiffel's tower, would you hope to learn flying? Intercept obviously becomes much stronger, so stealth decks are hosed. Ector

In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about: >emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.04120...@posting.google.com>... >> Probably good advice. Note, however, that "cross your fingers and >> hope" is a reasonable combat strategy for a really focused bleed deck. > >There are no more such thing as a "focused bleed deck". Intercept can >block it.So nobody can cross his fingers... and !Malks cannot do >anything. Oh, quit crying, for godsake. Why don't you just try to learn to play better? Channel 10 can't be used on the first action. Elder Impersonation (hey, !Malks have OBF!) takes care of the vamp with the Bowl. See how simple that was? [08:58] <beerbot> Enchanted Marionette: Equipment, !Malkavian, 3 pool [08:58] <beerbot> Unique equipment. [08:58] <beerbot> The Malkavian antitribu with this equipment gets +1 bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding. Oh, look! +1 stealth! How convenient. So Artemis kits up with the Marionette, and his first action every turn is Kindred Spirits, Eyes of Chaos, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation. Bleed of 5, and Channel 10 and the Bowl are just dead worthless against it. Add a few more stealth cards (easy to do, have you ever even built a stealth bleed deck?) and you're set against the rest of his vamps. All this over-melodramatic breast-beating about how the !Malks can never, ever win now is just stupid, and reveals how little you really understand about this game. I realize that you play in a very odd playgroup, where there's a lot of combat and a lot of ganging-up-on-you, but you need to recognize that your playgroup is NOT representative of the rest of the world, and act accordingly. -- Derek a host is a host from coast to coast and no one will talk to a host that's close unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead

Ector wrote: > They have mich more space for combat cards & bleed cards now, with > such brilliant permanent intercept. No, they don't. You *need* just as much transient intercept, 'cause a permanent location and a unique equipment aren't reliable. How many of Channel X are going to be in your deck? Unless there are, like, 5, whether or not you get one into play is a total crap shoot. The same with the magic bowl. And if you have 5 of each, that is great, but how is that any better than, like, having 10 Enahnced Senses instead? Really? Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

Ector wrote: >>Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. Stealth decks are doomed. All decks should contain at least one combat strategy to be effective. Malkavians antitribu are DEAD.>> Yeah, see, again, you are making kind of crazy, hyperbolic statements based on a strange meta game, or whatever. Yeah, the 10 new cards include a lot of permanent intercept. Of those two: -The bowl requires you to have aus or AUS. If you have AUS, you already have, potentially, all the intercept in the world. Yeah, +1 permanent intercept is good and all, or heck, even +2 permanent by spending a blood, but so what? They could just as easily have a Sports Bike. Or a Sports Bike and Mr. Winthrop. Or 4 Raven Spies. All of which are already possible. Along with superior Enhanced Senses. -Channel 10 is permanent +2 intercept. But not on the first action. +2 intercept is good, but not if the first action is "I bleed you for 6 at +3 stealth..." Both of these cards are handy, sure. But they are hardly going to blasn a nail in the coffin of S+B, which is *still* going to be one of the most effective strategies. Keep in mind that when VTES was printed (as opposed to Jyhad), the set included 3 anti S+B magic bullets--Archon Investigation, Protected Resources, and Elder Intervention (ooh, yeah, and that vote that burns vampires who have permanent 3 bleed or more! That one too! So 4 magic bullets). And yet S+B was still one of the most effective strategies. And still is. Bowl and Channel X are good permanent intercept objects. But there are *already* good permanent intercept options, and these aren't, like, making the Malkavians useless. You can *already* play a deck where a minion with 5 Raven Spies untaps constantly, blocks you, and then plays Trap, Carrion Crows, and Drawing out the Beast. Which will *kill* any S+B deck dead. And that is without the new cards. The new cards give some new options--guys with Auspex have more access to intercept. Woo. They already have the option of all the intercept in the world already. Channel X is really good for an intercept location (of which there are already plenty--heck, if you are, like, the Assamites, you can have, what, 5 individual intercept locations in play at a given time already?), but if your predator is like "Well, they are relying on Channel X. I'll make sure my best action is the first one or third every time. They'll waste 2 pool! Score!", it is hardly going to have much impact at all. The Malkavian Antitribu are far from dead. Really. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote > emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote > > Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote > > > Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. > > > > ...and still get stomped by dedicated combat and bleed/vote & bruise > > decks, trumped by block fails combos (Seduction + Call of the Hungry > > Dead or Elder Impersonation or Blanket of Night, etc) and hosed by > > block-punishing cards like Dominion, Teneberous Form, Crocodile's > > Tongue and Aching Beauty. > > > They have mich more space for combat cards & bleed cards now, with > such brilliant permanent intercept. Thus, they don't fear to block > most decks. AUS decks will include the Bowl in place of a Sport Bike or Mr. Winthrop, and maybe Channel 10 instead of another media outlet. These decks will become more diverse, but they won't suddenly have tons more room. If you disagree, try picking a winning intercept deck from the archive, and show how swapping in the Bowl or Channel 10 will allow you to add many more bleed or combat cards. > Block-punishing cards don't seem to be efficient if the > intercept really can regain its blood (like Tremeres) or torporize the > acting vampire. ...which they can't, because block-punishing decks use Change of Target, Red Herring and the like to cancel combat and take another action, running decks out of blood and wakes. Try it with the Colonel & company sometime and see for yourself. > "Block-fails" are good, but they don't save against Channel 10 + Bowl. > You declare an action with Seduction on my Bowled vamp, then I'll > block you with another vampire and Channel 10. The moral of the story seems to be if you're going to play Kine Dominance or bleed for six, make that your first action of your turn. So, a stealth deck will > need BOTH "block-fail" cards and stealth cards, and they are going to > lose extra slots for it. > Now, what deck are you calling "rock"? Which deck is running out of Wakes and pool? That's the one in trouble. > > > Stealth decks are doomed. > > > > ...in the instance when they're sitting next to wall decks. Maybe. > If you call any deck with Channel 10 and the Bowl a "wall deck". Any > deck with Auspex can use them. And I really don't see a reason NOT to > include these cards. The only hope is the fact that they are going to > be contested frequently. The Bowl and Channel 10 together just aren't enough. You need plenty of wakes to be a decent wall, and not having half your permanent intercept available on your predator and prey's first actions is a serious concern. Honestly, if stealth-bleed survived the arrival of Maris Streck, it will survive these new cards just fine. > There are no more such thing as a "focused bleed deck". Intercept can > block it.So nobody can cross his fingers... and !Malks cannot do > anything. The card flow advantage for a stealth-bleed deck that includes no combat cards beyond Swallowed by the Night and Deny is enormous. I understand it's traditional for someone to shout "The sky is falling!" every time a new set comes out, but I'm honestly surprised these new cards provoked that reaction.

In message <1101971771.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Ec...@mail.ru writes: >Never thought about Derange in a voting decks... Strange... it was mentioned a couple of times during the last newsletter discussion as one of a plethora of alternatives to stealth-bleed. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though! EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<FLqScBnk...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <1101971771.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, > Ec...@mail.ru writes: > >Never thought about Derange in a voting decks... > > Strange... it was mentioned a couple of times during the last newsletter > discussion as one of a plethora of alternatives to stealth-bleed. Derange was mentioned many times, but it was mostly used with Malkavian Dementia, not to deny votes. Ector

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@eris.io.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.04120...@eris.io.com>... > On 3 Dec 2004, Ector wrote: > > > Intercept obviously becomes much stronger, so stealth decks are hosed. > > Are you trying to make this group go crazy? There's never been any limit > to the number of Raven Spies a minion can have. It's always been true > that permanent intercept will overcome stealth in the long run. Raven Spies require Animalism, which is much less popular than Auspex - most of the times you'll find good vampires with AUS for most clans and disciplines set. You need two Raven Spies to get the Bowl's +2 intercept effect, and you generally cannot fetch the Spies. Turn 2 Carna, turn 3 Magic of the Smith is pretty realistic, so "the long run" isn't needed anymore. No Thaumaturgy? Turn 3 Anneke, turn 4 Vast Wealth and fetch equipment. > Stealth > decks get by with speed, block denial, running their prey out of Wake (not > intercept) and the fact that intercept is a hard strategy to win with so > it's not always played. Intercept is NOT a hard strategy to win anymore, as it can now dump some intercept cards for combat and bleed cards. > You seem to have come around on the ideas that !Malks have no combat > defense and can't vote well. Wait a while and watch. The Bowl will go in > many bad decks and a few good ones. Stealth bleed will still reign > supreme. DOM/OBF S&B, maybe, as it has Seductions, but not DEM/OBF. > And put Elder Impersonation in your deck already! I already have them, thanks :) Ector

carn...@gmail.com (John Flournoy) wrote in message news:<e904e39f.04120...@posting.google.com>... > Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>... > > carn...@gmail.com (John Flournoy) wrote in message news:<e904e39f.04120...@posting.google.com>... > > > The card text states: "While this vamp. is acting, he or she may burn > > ONE > > counter from the PC to get +1 stealth for the current action". If this > > was juts a misrepresentation, than the Coach is clearly a better card > > than I thought, but the price is still too big. > > LSJ has confirmed that it's use as many times as you can pay counters > for, so that helps. Yeah, if it was just once, it'd be weaker. Glad to read this :) So, we can at least assemble A LOT OF counters and break through the Bowl. > > > Second: +1 stealth isn't much, true. However, you made a very good > > > argument about how the Bowl of Convergence is a powerful card because > > > it lets an intercept deck devote card slots to other things; that > > > exact same argument holds true for the Coach and stealth decks. > > > Knowing that your first point of stealth each turn will be cardless > > > lets you free up card slots for other things. > > > Unfortunately, you will have to compensate the blood drain somehow. > > So, your "slot gain" won't be significant. > > How about putting one or two Festivo's in? One thought I had was how > useful Capitalist would be. A hunting ground pays for a coach. Paying > for a singular coach should be relatively easy to offset. I wonder, why nobody plays Robert Carter, then? Why Gangrels are complaining about having no bleed modifiers and still avoid him? :) I guess that cards that constantly drain blood from your vampire would never be popular, even if there would be a lot of ways to regain the blood. In this case, Polaris Coach makes the vampire an obvious target, and he cannot even hide in Secure Haven. I guess the Coach is more suitable for combat clans, not !Malks. > If I'm going to pack _multiple_ coaches in a !Malk deck, I'm planning > to USE the vamps with them, preferably every turn, to swarm-bleed out > my prey and so on, more efficiently than I might without them, and for > that sort of deck, I'm trying to win as fast as I can. Let's imagine that you have the Coach, and your prey has the Bowl. You'll have to assemble two counters on the Coach to compensate for the Bowl... and this obviously counters your attempt to "win as fast as you can". > > > Also, you say 'This card drains blood of your vampires, which prevents > > > you from draining the blood yourselves', which I find very ironic in a > > > !Malk thread - a lot of effective Kindred Spirits/Stealth !Malk decks > > > don't even include ways to pull blood off the vamps in the first > > > place, because those cards don't directly help bleed out the table. > > AFAIK, each S&B deck has at least 4 Blood Dolls. It has to be > > aggressive and influence vampires as quickly as possible, so it needs > > to regain pool somehow. Blood Dolls are also extremely useful to feed > > an empty vampire to prevent hunting. Some heavier decks even use > > Minion Taps. Kindred Spirits are not enough, and they won't bring you > > anything if you get blocked, which is very likely to happen now. > > Let me direct your attention to the !Malk section of The Lasombra's > tournament-winning deck archive, where if you look at one of the decks > labelled 'Fast Eddie/y' or Kamel's "Kindred Spirit", which demonstrate > a fairly common !Malk pure-stealth-bleed deck type, you'll see that > these decks run with only 2 Blood Dolls and no other means of moving > blood on or off of vampires or gaining blood onto their vamps. And > they win. Other variations on this deck have made numerous final > tables in the last couple of years. These sorts of decks currently > throw 30-40 stealth cards to back up the 12-15 Kindred Spirits they > bleed with, and that IS generally enough to gain enough pool to > survive. (These decks obviously are pretty extremely focused.) Maybe, you're right, but IMHO "Fast Eddie" is killed by the Bowl, as it obviously has not enough stealth. Anyway, I don't think that such aggressive decks have time to find Polaris Coaches and equip them. > ------- > > (On to discussing Charlton): > > > Look, you are far more experienced than me, so I wonder, why do you > > adduce such weak arguments? Equipment is good, but you have to find it > > and successfully play it. How many Loyal Street Gangs and Bikes will > > you use, and what are your chances to get the combo in play? And would > > you waste a Bike on the Gang knowing that the Gang cannot dodge and is > > going to be killed? Charlton is extremely good, and your combo is > > unplayable. > > My argument probably shouldn't have used a weak, specific example, so > I'll use a stronger generic one. Charlton is good, yes. Charlton is > not, however, The Most Shut-Down Thing Ever, as he'll be hard-pressed > to block more than one action a turn, generally won't ever hurt the > minion he blocks, and most importantly, is FAR from the only 'cheap > blocker that it's hard to hurt' that has ever been seen on a table. > Yes, he's good. Yes, he's a really good blocker. No, the existence of > Charlton doesn't suddenly make stealth-bleeding impossible. > > But then, you are looking at him with an eye on !Malks specifically, > and yeah, for a !Malk point of view he's definitely pretty > intimidating. Did you think about Charlton + Fast Reaction? This combo will intimidate ALL clans, not just !Malks. I block with Charlton, dodge, then my Miller Delmardigan plays Fast Reaction, strikes for +2, Blur, +2 more, and +2 more. Or my Ana Rita Montana plays Fast Reaction and Chiropteran Marauder? Surely, Fast Reaction did exist before, but you had to leave two vamps untapped or waste extra Wakes. But you're right, !Malks suffer most from the Charlton. Moreover, they cannot diablerize safely even with a vote lock now. > > > > > > Bowl of Convergence > > > > !Malks can regularly use only Elder Impersonation and the Signet (and, > > possibly, Forgotten Labyrinth). Considering the fact that they are > > weak in combat, I'm calling them dead now. > > Feel free. It'll definitely be interesting to see if people (or the > meta-game) proves you wrong. I'd be glad to. > > Surely, stealth decks still have a change to push undirected action, > > but stealth-bleed is dying. !Malks were the primary > > stealth-bleeders... and I really don't see any viable strategies for > > them now. > > I disagree; perhaps I'll have to play !Malks some once my playgroup > gets 10th Box Sets to see how it works in practice. Perhaps I will post some decks to test against !Malks :) Ector

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<n2s0r0t6knrtdi0rf...@4ax.com>... > In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, > Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about: > > >emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.04120...@posting.google.com>... > >> Probably good advice. Note, however, that "cross your fingers and > >> hope" is a reasonable combat strategy for a really focused bleed deck. > > > >There are no more such thing as a "focused bleed deck". Intercept can > >block it.So nobody can cross his fingers... and !Malks cannot do > >anything. > > Oh, quit crying, for godsake. > > Why don't you just try to learn to play better? Channel 10 can't be > used on the first action. Elder Impersonation (hey, !Malks have OBF!) > takes care of the vamp with the Bowl. See how simple that was? > > [08:58] <beerbot> Enchanted Marionette: Equipment, !Malkavian, 3 pool > [08:58] <beerbot> Unique equipment. > [08:58] <beerbot> The Malkavian antitribu with this equipment gets +1 > bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding. How wonderful! I KNOW that Channel 10 cannot be used on the first action, but I don't think that ANY deck can win using only one action per turn. Except for Arika + Secure Haven, maybe :) Enchanted Marionette is good, barring the facts that it can be blocked and it makes your vampire target No.1 on the table. I guess you are going to suggest creating a "bleeding monster" with the Marionette, Dive into Madness or even Pulse of the Canaille and bleed only once per turn? Did you ever encounter bounce? You know... bounce... bounce... BOUNCE??? > Oh, look! +1 stealth! How convenient. So Artemis kits up with the > Marionette, and his first action every turn is Kindred Spirits, Eyes of > Chaos, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation. Bleed of 5, and Channel 10 > and the Bowl are just dead worthless against it. Add a few more stealth > cards (easy to do, have you ever even built a stealth bleed deck?) and > you're set against the rest of his vamps. Really, how convenient... Kindred Spirits, Eyes, FN, Elder Impersonation... bleeding for 5 having only +1 stealth... just to see Second Tradition played by ANOTHER vampire that blocks and torporizes Artemis. Did I say that the Bowl and Channel 10 are going to be THE ONLY intercept cards? Second Tradition will definitely remain, as well as Quicken Sight and Read the Winds. Vampires with inbuilt +1 intercept will also be quite popular... Even Charlton could block Artemis in your example. And again, don't forget about bounce and Archon Investigation. Heavy bleeds aren't profitable, at least in tournaments. > All this over-melodramatic breast-beating about how the !Malks can > never, ever win now is just stupid, and reveals how little you really > understand about this game. I realize that you play in a very odd > playgroup, where there's a lot of combat and a lot of ganging-up-on-you, > but you need to recognize that your playgroup is NOT representative of > the rest of the world, and act accordingly. Well, I won't explain what YOUR post reveals... Please think about it yourself. By the way, our playgroup already shifted from Rush-only decks to the various diversified metagame. Ector

In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: >James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<FLqScBnkkQsBFw >f...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... >> In message <1101971771.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, >> Ec...@mail.ru writes: >> >Never thought about Derange in a voting decks... >> >> Strange... it was mentioned a couple of times during the last newsletter >> discussion as one of a plethora of alternatives to stealth-bleed. > >Derange was mentioned many times, but it was mostly used with >Malkavian Dementia, not to deny votes. Uh. You even posted this! <http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d6c82c73.0411100108.6e6a06c%40post ing.google.com> Which includes (in response to me): > There are sufficient Princes/other titles lurking around, and a few > vampires with Obf/Pre (Kite, Quentin, Evan) that a (!)Malkavian deck can > have a good run at a stealth/vote deck, with a little bleed to fall back > on. Stealth can always be thrown on vanilla bleed actions, if you have > trouble. Combine with Derange to take out the opposing titles (this is > why the clan cross-over works well) if you're feeling vindictive. Again, most good vamps with Presence are Camarilla Malks. Unfortunately, !Malks have much less options. *** It's disheartening to know that the time the rest of us put in responding to your points is actually ignored. You think the !Malks are dead, and nothing we can say will convince you otherwise - because you don't read it, even when you respond to it and quote it in the line above your text. :/ [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BDD649F1.1B57A%pd...@lightlink.com>... > Ector wrote: > > > They have mich more space for combat cards & bleed cards now, with > > such brilliant permanent intercept. > > No, they don't. You *need* just as much transient intercept, 'cause a > permanent location and a unique equipment aren't reliable. > > How many of Channel X are going to be in your deck? Unless there are, like, > 5, whether or not you get one into play is a total crap shoot. The same with > the magic bowl. And if you have 5 of each, that is great, but how is that > any better than, like, having 10 Enahnced Senses instead? Really? Channel 10 is fair, but the Bowl isn't. It can easily be fetched with Magic of the Smith or Vast Wealth, or even Alastor. Just look at my sample deck a few posts after this... Ector

Ector wrote: > Did I say that the Bowl and Channel 10 are going to be THE > ONLY intercept cards? Second Tradition will definitely remain, as well > as Quicken Sight and Read the Winds. Vampires with inbuilt +1 > intercept will also be quite popular... Bollocks. It's not as if everyone is suddenly going to start playing intercept wall decks just to piss off stealthbleeders. Maybe in your metagame, but these two cards definitely won't cause a sudden change in playstyles universally. I really don't see the point in all this. One new intercept location that is about on par with, say, KRCG + Rumor Mill controlled by the same Meth. Since when have locations or equipment been exceedingly hard to burn or steal? And with multiple intercept locations you had to do something to all of them, with Channel 10 there's just one card that you have to get rid of... and said location can't even be used to intercept an Arson targeting it if you arsonize it as your first action, non? --CV

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BDD6493C.1B579%pd...@lightlink.com>... > Ector wrote: > >>Overall: Intercept decks are versatile and impenetratable. Stealth > decks are doomed. All decks should contain at least one combat > strategy to be effective. Malkavians antitribu are DEAD.>> > > Yeah, see, again, you are making kind of crazy, hyperbolic statements based > on a strange meta game, or whatever. > > Yeah, the 10 new cards include a lot of permanent intercept. Of those two: > > -The bowl requires you to have aus or AUS. If you have AUS, you already > have, potentially, all the intercept in the world. Yeah, +1 permanent > intercept is good and all, or heck, even +2 permanent by spending a blood, > but so what? They could just as easily have a Sports Bike. Or a Sports Bike > and Mr. Winthrop. Or 4 Raven Spies. All of which are already possible. Along > with superior Enhanced Senses. If the Bowl couldn't be fetched, you'd be right, but... See my sample deck below :) > -Channel 10 is permanent +2 intercept. But not on the first action. +2 > intercept is good, but not if the first action is "I bleed you for 6 at +3 > stealth..." > > Both of these cards are handy, sure. But they are hardly going to blasn a > nail in the coffin of S+B, which is *still* going to be one of the most > effective strategies. If S&B bleeds will be constantly intercepted, it will lose. And S&B CANNOT play only one action per turn to avoid Channel 10. Heavy bleeds can be bounced or Investigated. The whole idea of S&B deck is bleeding with several minions, but for 3 max each. > Keep in mind that when VTES was printed (as opposed to Jyhad), the set > included 3 anti S+B magic bullets--Archon Investigation, Protected > Resources, and Elder Intervention (ooh, yeah, and that vote that burns > vampires who have permanent 3 bleed or more! That one too! So 4 magic > bullets). And yet S+B was still one of the most effective strategies. And > still is. Again, the whole idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3 each. And this IDEA is crushed by Channel 10, Charlton and the Bowl. > Bowl and Channel X are good permanent intercept objects. But there are > *already* good permanent intercept options, and these aren't, like, making > the Malkavians useless. You can *already* play a deck where a minion with 5 > Raven Spies untaps constantly, blocks you, and then plays Trap, Carrion > Crows, and Drawing out the Beast. Which will *kill* any S+B deck dead. And > that is without the new cards. The new cards give some new options--guys > with Auspex have more access to intercept. Woo. They already have the option > of all the intercept in the world already. Channel X is really good for an > intercept location (of which there are already plenty--heck, if you are, > like, the Assamites, you can have, what, 5 individual intercept locations in > play at a given time already?), but if your predator is like "Well, they are > relying on Channel X. I'll make sure my best action is the first one or > third every time. They'll waste 2 pool! Score!", it is hardly going to have > much impact at all. Somebody already posted about Raven Spies in the "10 new cards" thread. But you cannot fetch them, and they can be killed, so a S&B deck generally has enough time to finish its prey prior to "5 Raven Spies" situation. The Bowl is completely different. Just look at my sample deck: Deck Name : Bowling Tremeres Author : Ilya Ginsburg Description : AUS/CEL/THA with Bowls, Channels and Charltons Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 7 max: 10 average: 8.59 ------------------------------------------------------------ 4x Lucas Halton 10 AUS CEL DOM THA qui prince Tremere:3 3x Anastaszdi Zagreb 8 AUS THA ani cel dom justicar Tremere:3 3x Yitzak 7 AUS CEL THA pre !Toreador:3 2x Javier Montoya 9 AUS THA ani cel pre prince Tremere:2 Library [90 cards] ------------------------------------------------------------ Action [18] 8x Govern the Unaligned 2x Graverobbing 6x Magic of the Smith 2x Pulse of the Canaille Combat [26] 8x Blur 6x Pursuit 12x Theft of Vitae Equipment [6] 1x Ivory Bow 1x Flamethrower 2x Sniper Rifle 2x Bowl of Convergence Master [17] 2x Celerity 1x Giant's Blood 2x Information Highway 5x Minion Tap 3x Sudden Reversal 2x Zillah's Valley 2x Channel 10 Reaction [21] 5x Deflection 2x Fast Reaction 8x Second Tradition: Domain 6x Wake with Evening's Freshness Ally [2] 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter) ------------------------------------------------------------ It's just a rough sketch, but it should clearly demonstrate the current state of S&B decks. Influence Lucas with Zillah's Valley or Info Highway, play Magic of the Smith and catch them. Play Governs as usual. Use extra Magic to get other equipment. I probably should include Sport Bike, but I just wanted to demonstrate the difference... though one Bike would be nice here. Get your Ivory Bow/Flamethrower and torporize vampires, then Graverob them whenever possible. Vampires with a lot of attached cards (e.g. Enchanted Marionette, Pulse of the Canaille etc.) are the best targets :) Eventualy you will get your Charlton and Channel 10. I guess Neighbourhood Watch Commander would also be good here. Finally, when you find your Pulse, just put it on the vamp with the Bow/Flamethower and play bruise & bleed. Repeat with the second Pulse, if needed :) Obviously, this deck isn't a great interceptor, but it can intercept most actions. Some cards may be far from optimal, but the main idea is: Intercept Decks Have To Pack Much Less Intercept Cards Now, And Therefore They Are Much Stronger. If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :) Ector.

On 4 Dec 2004 04:23:59 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote: >Again, the whole idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3 >each. No, YOUR idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3 each. Bleeding at stealth is nowhere near as limited as you make it out to be. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

On 4 Dec 2004 04:23:59 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote: >Somebody already posted about Raven Spies in the "10 new cards" >thread. But you cannot fetch them, Yes, you can. Muricia's Call http://monger.vekn.org/showcard.html?ID=1141 The Summoning http://monger.vekn.org/showcard.html?ID=999 There are tools available to decrease the falsity of your statements. I would recommend you investigate them, as every argument you make that contains falsehoods is easily (and rightly) discarded. Monger http://monger.vekn.org/ Vekn.NU http://www.vekn.nu/search.php?page=search Elder Library Deck Builder http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/eldb3/ Anarch Revolt Deck Builder http://www.nongnu.org/anarchdb/ Vamp http://home.insightbb.com/~ebina1/vtes/ V:TES Deck Maker http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/VTESDeckMaker/ Official Cardlists http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Cardlist.html Official Rulings, Clarifications, and Errata http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulings.html [ quoted text not captured ]

On 4 Dec 2004 04:23:59 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote: >If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :) There exists multiple fixes for your complaint. I will give you the easiest one, and let you start over. Direct Intervetion. -Target the Magic of the Smith or the Bowl of Convergence. Second fix: Disguised Weapon - Flamethrower/Ivory Bow/Blow Torch/Rowan Ring plus a second disposible weenie, like Yorik to follow up with the diablerie. You have not been sufficiently creative if you feel your game is destroyed by permanent intercept, especially permanent intercept without damage prevention disciplines. Sensory Deprivation destroys your stealth bleed game much more than permanent intercept ever will. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ector wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Exchange one for Mr. Wintrop. Why two uniques? Where is Sire's Index Finger? > > Master [17] > 2x Celerity > 1x Giant's Blood > 2x Information Highway > 5x Minion Tap > 3x Sudden Reversal > 2x Zillah's Valley > 2x Channel 10 Again replace one. KRCG, for example? > > Reaction [21] > 5x Deflection > 2x Fast Reaction > 8x Second Tradition: Domain > 6x Wake with Evening's Freshness > > Ally [2] > 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter) > ------------------------------------------------------------ Start praying you never see Kiss of Ra behind you. Start praying your bleeding prey uses dementation as the combination obf/dom, Stanislava bleed and, to some extent, nec/dom kills your deck. With four vamps you really, really don't want to face 'block fails' in combination with Faceless Night. What happens if you run into the more traditional weenie bleed I think we don't even need to cover here as you're going to take ten points of pool-damage on average before you see your first vamp influenced. A pre/obf deck bleeding you (and most probably packing the occasional Form of Corruption/Temptation) is even worse until it eventually gets ousted by its own predator. Majesty isn't exactly your best friend here, or S:CE in any form as you'll soon find your hand filled with useless Blur. All that said, yes, I'll most probably replace one copy of Sport Bike with one Bowl in a Tor gun deck - contestation aside Bowl is a better card than Sport Bike. I'd probably replace Rumor Mill with Channel Ten, but the main point here is "replace", because decks using permanent intercepts have that many slots available and no more, unless, of course, I head in the direction of Anson "I promise this is no Anarch Revolt deck" Parthenon decks to be able to slot in all the "broken" masters to be able to retrieve the "broken" allies/ retainers/equipment looping with Freak Drive and Toreador Grand Ball, which says less about the two cards discussed here and more about fortitude combined with Tor Grand Ball. Sten During

Ector wrote: > Channel 10 is fair, but the Bowl isn't. It can easily be fetched with > Magic of the Smith or Vast Wealth, or even Alastor. > Just look at my sample deck a few posts after this.. If you are worried about Bowl of Convergence, use your own. It is *unique*. The Malkavians can even use Sibyl's Tounge to go get it quickly. Or you can use Equipment hosers (Anarch Troublemaker?) that are incredibly useful in a general sense, especially these days (what with all the Assault Rifles and all). Or just use more stealth. Or block denial (Elder Intervention). Or Coma them when they block you. I'm sooooo not seeing where the problem is. It is only functionally better than a Sport Bike on someone with AUS. And they already have the ability to block you anyway with Enhanced Senses and some back up transient intercept. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ector wrote: > If the Bowl couldn't be fetched, you'd be right, but... See my sample > deck below :) Fetch your own. You have Sybil's Tounge. > If S&B bleeds will be constantly intercepted, it will lose. And S&B > CANNOT play only one action per turn to avoid Channel 10. Heavy bleeds > can be bounced or Investigated. The whole idea of S&B deck is bleeding > with several minions, but for 3 max each. That is the whole idea of your S+B deck, apparently. S+B isn't going anywhere at all. Neither is any other strategy that uses heavy stealth. The ability to reliably block any action *already exists*. And it hasn't hampered S+B even remotely, in a strategic sense. > Again, the whole idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3 > each. And this IDEA is crushed by Channel 10, Charlton and the Bowl. Hardly. > Somebody already posted about Raven Spies in the "10 new cards" > thread. But you cannot fetch them, and they can be killed, so a S&B > deck generally has enough time to finish its prey prior to "5 Raven > Spies" situation. The Bowl is completely different. Just look at my > sample deck: You don't need to fetch Raven Spies. You just play lots of them 'cause, see, they aren't unique (like the bowl), so having 15 in a deck is actually useful *and* it lets you build a strategy around having them. Heck, 3 or 3 weenie minions, someone with ANI, and Shepards Innocence, and you can have 4 Raven Spies on a single minion in a single turn. > Deck Name : Bowling Tremeres > Author : Ilya Ginsburg > Description : AUS/CEL/THA with Bowls, Channels and Charltons (deck snipped) Ok. You have built an intercept wall deck that can stop actions a lot. Woo. I could show you thirty of those in 4 minutes that will be just as effective at stopping actions that don't use any of the new cards. But, see, the thing is is that decks like that don't win. It has limited forward momentum (due to lack of evasion of any sort--it's bleeds will be blocked easily). Limited combat defense (it will be killed by decks that *want* to be blocked). And even in the best of situations, it is going to get 2 VPs while its forward inclined prey gets 3. Hardly something to worry about in a strategic sense. Yeah, if a Malk S+B deck sitn next to it, it might be hosed. But then the same thing happens if the Malk deck sits next to someone with 15 Deflections. > Intercept Decks Have To Pack Much Less Intercept Cards Now, And > Therefore They Are Much Stronger. No they don't. Unique forms of Permanent Intercept are unreliable. Even *with* Magic of the Smith. > If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :) Just keep playing the game, and you'll prove yourself wrong eventually. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<n2s0r0t6knrtdi0rf...@4ax.com>... >> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, >> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about: >> >> >emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.04120...@posting.google.com>... >> >> Probably good advice. Note, however, that "cross your fingers and >> >> hope" is a reasonable combat strategy for a really focused bleed deck. >> > >> >There are no more such thing as a "focused bleed deck". Intercept can >> >block it.So nobody can cross his fingers... and !Malks cannot do >> >anything. >> >> Oh, quit crying, for godsake. >> >> Why don't you just try to learn to play better? Channel 10 can't be >> used on the first action. Elder Impersonation (hey, !Malks have OBF!) >> takes care of the vamp with the Bowl. See how simple that was? I reiterate this point. Why don't you just learn to play better? >> [08:58] <beerbot> Enchanted Marionette: Equipment, !Malkavian, 3 pool >> [08:58] <beerbot> Unique equipment. >> [08:58] <beerbot> The Malkavian antitribu with this equipment gets +1 >> bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding. > >How wonderful! I KNOW that Channel 10 cannot be used on the first >action, but I don't think that ANY deck can win using only one action >per turn. Except for Arika + Secure Haven, maybe :) Have you only played this game for a few weeks or something? >Enchanted Marionette is good, barring the facts that it can be blocked >and it makes your vampire target No.1 on the table. I guess you are Fortunately, intercept decks almost never pack Rush, and the Enchanted Marionette is not going to get you cross-table Rushed until you actually oust your prey. >going to suggest creating a "bleeding monster" with the Marionette, >Dive into Madness or even Pulse of the Canaille and bleed only once >per turn? Did you ever encounter bounce? You know... bounce... >bounce... BOUNCE??? No, you can bleed more than once per turn. You just don't know how, and you aren't willing to listen to the rest of us telling you. Intercept decks rarely pack much bounce. You may get Telepathically Misdirected once or even twice, but very soon you're going to be all good to go. >> Oh, look! +1 stealth! How convenient. So Artemis kits up with the >> Marionette, and his first action every turn is Kindred Spirits, Eyes of >> Chaos, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation. Bleed of 5, and Channel 10 >> and the Bowl are just dead worthless against it. Add a few more stealth >> cards (easy to do, have you ever even built a stealth bleed deck?) and >> you're set against the rest of his vamps. > >Really, how convenient... Kindred Spirits, Eyes, FN, Elder >Impersonation... bleeding for 5 having only +1 stealth... just to see >Second Tradition played by ANOTHER vampire that blocks and torporizes You know, dude, you really have a bad case of "my deck can do everything and it will beat yours" disease. Above, I indicated "add a few more stealth cards". I would assume you would add Lost In Crowds to this, which allows you to bypass the 2nd tradition player, who will REMAIN TAPPED. But at this point, you've got so much intercept in the deck that it isn't capable of going forward, and won't win, so it's kind of irrelevant -- I am not worried about facing this deck. Plus, all you have to do is nail someone once with the above combo and all their guys are tapped -- and now you're attacking their untap, not their intercept, rendering the Bowl and Channel 10 close to irrelevant. >Artemis. Did I say that the Bowl and Channel 10 are going to be THE >ONLY intercept cards? Second Tradition will definitely remain, as well >as Quicken Sight and Read the Winds. Vampires with inbuilt +1 >intercept will also be quite popular... Even Charlton could block >Artemis in your example. Not after the Lost in Crowds ("Add a few more stealth cards"). And honestly, you are assuming a perfect draw on the part of the intercept deck to have Channel 10, the Bowl, and everything else on the table by turn 4. Again, have you ever played a stealth bleed deck? They move FAST. If someone doesn't draw the Bowl or Channel 10 in the first 15 cards, they aren't likely to get a chance to. >And again, don't forget about bounce and Archon Investigation. Heavy >bleeds aren't profitable, at least in tournaments. Clearly you have never played in a tournament. Heavy bleeds are QUITE profitable, despite the prevalence of bounce and AI. I have won a major tournament (Dragon*Con) with Giovanni "don't block" bleed -- Seduction, +1 stealth from Bonding, and Call of the Hungry Dead to stop a second blocker. I ran over a Tzimisce intercept wall to get there, because he couldn't afford to get more than two vampires out (an 8 and a 7) because I was bleeding him so fast. Intercept decks HATE "Your Block Fails". Elder Impersonation and Faceless Night are the way to fly; and did we overlook Blackmail, by any chance, to deal with people who want to leave the Bowl-bearer untapped? >> All this over-melodramatic breast-beating about how the !Malks can >> never, ever win now is just stupid, and reveals how little you really >> understand about this game. I realize that you play in a very odd >> playgroup, where there's a lot of combat and a lot of ganging-up-on-you, >> but you need to recognize that your playgroup is NOT representative of >> the rest of the world, and act accordingly. > >Well, I won't explain what YOUR post reveals... Please think about it >yourself. By the way, our playgroup already shifted from Rush-only >decks to the various diversified metagame. Yeah, I've thought about it, and what I see is you being a crying little baby because you don't want to adapt your decks to deal with a changing metagame. Suck it up, boy, figure it out, move on. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about: >Deck Name : Bowling Tremeres >Author : Ilya Ginsburg >Description : AUS/CEL/THA with Bowls, Channels and Charltons > >Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 7 max: 10 average: 8.59 >------------------------------------------------------------ > >4x Lucas Halton 10 AUS CEL DOM THA qui prince Tremere:3 >3x Anastaszdi Zagreb 8 AUS THA ani cel dom justicar Tremere:3 >3x Yitzak 7 AUS CEL THA pre !Toreador:3 >2x Javier Montoya 9 AUS THA ani cel pre prince Tremere:2 This crypt is way too big. Fast decks will cream you. >Library [90 cards] >------------------------------------------------------------ > >Action [18] > 8x Govern the Unaligned > 2x Graverobbing > 6x Magic of the Smith > 2x Pulse of the Canaille Only 50% chance of getting a Magic in your first 10 cards. You are going to have to get lucky to even have a prayer. I removed the equipment, but if you ever paid 4 pool for a Flamethrower, I would expect that to seal your doom instantly. Your guys are too expensive and you have little way to get it back. >Master [17] > 2x Celerity > 1x Giant's Blood > 2x Information Highway > 5x Minion Tap Insufficient pool gain, because you have insufficient defense. You will need 8x of these. > 3x Sudden Reversal > 2x Zillah's Valley > 2x Channel 10 Only 38% chance of getting an influence accelerator in your first 10 cards. Talk about needing to get lucky... you're going to need a miracle at this point. >Reaction [21] > 5x Deflection Better hope you aren't relying on these; you don't have anywhere near enough to bounce more than the occasional bleed, especially since you won't cycle any of those combat cards. > 2x Fast Reaction You won't ever have more than two vampires, and you're going to tap both of them just to steal some blood? Please, be my prey. > 8x Second Tradition: Domain > 6x Wake with Evening's Freshness You'll be stuck having to influence Zagreb or Yitzak, just to save your ass against a fast deck -- leaving you with only one person to play 2nd Tradition. Who will get the Bowl? >Ally [2] > 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter) He's meaningless; +1 intercept won't stop a stealth bleed deck. >It's just a rough sketch, but it should clearly demonstrate the >current state of S&B decks. Influence Lucas with Zillah's Valley or >Info Highway, play Magic of the Smith and catch them. Play Governs as You'll get smeared by Elder Impersonation, Seduction, etc. I would expect any decent stealth/bleed deck to oust this weak-ass thing JUST as it was influencing its second vampire. Your maximum intercept total on a single vampire is +6. You have only 8 cards of transient intercept, meaning that if you don't get the Bowl or Channel 10 (a 50% chance of doing so early, remember), you are relying totally on your 2nd Traditions. Channel 10 can't be used on the first action, so your maximum intercept total on THAT action is +4, something I routinely see stealth decks overcome with just transient stealth. You will never be able to generate more than +2 intercept on a secondary minion. Faceless Night and Lost in Crowds beat that. Let's go back to our above example, shall we? You get Channel 10, Lucas Halton with a Bowl, and Anastazdi Zagreb out, somehow (remember that's 22 pool right there). I have Artemis with an Enchanted Marionette, and 2-3 dem/obf guys. Me: Kindred Spirits bleed for 3; first action, no channel 10. You: Lucas Wakes and blocks with the Bowl. Me: Faceless Night, burn a blood? You: OK, Lucas does. +2 intercept. Me: Elder Impersonation. Not him, someone else. You: Zagreb plays 2nd Tradition. Me: Lost in Crowds, total 4 stealth. Tap 'em all, please. You: Damn, my deck sucks. Me: Eyes of Chaos, make it 5. I gain a pool. You think you'll Deflect? You might do it once, but not with only 5 in your deck; you'll have a hand full of combat cards before long. In fact, in the above example I would go nuts bleeding you with all the rest of my minions, because you've just wasted two untap cards to no effect; the odds are HUGE that you don't have a third. I have great chances of ousting you this turn, in fact, if I drew into more bleed mods. You know the best part? All those cards I played are found in MULTIPLES in good stealth/bleed decks. Like, 8-of-each multiples. I can do that every turn, easily. Your deck, on the other hand, will be ousted. >Obviously, this deck isn't a great interceptor, but it can intercept >most actions. Some cards may be far from optimal, but the main idea No, it cannot intercept most actions. It in fact can get itself ousted rapidly, making room for a REAL deck at the table; its !Malk stealth/bleed predator, for example. Perhaps it can get lucky and play against a "10-cap calls one vote a turn" deck as its predator, so it has time to get set up. But then it still can't oust anyone. >Intercept Decks Have To Pack Much Less Intercept Cards Now, And >Therefore They Are Much Stronger. > >If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :) Just did. Happy now? [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:18:37 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Let's go back to our above example, shall we? > > You get Channel 10, Lucas Halton with a Bowl, and Anastazdi Zagreb out, > somehow (remember that's 22 pool right there). I have Artemis with an > Enchanted Marionette, and 2-3 dem/obf guys. That's like 20+ pool too. So your predator, who has Timothy Crowley and two other Ventrue out will simply call Parity Shift and Conservative Agitation before you even get a chance to bleed your prey, ousting you right before the snipped scenario would occur. They do everything at +1 stealth (+2 with the Creepshow that was played to go to Parity Shift range) and screw your !Malks with impunity. There, happy? Examples are all plentiful. One less relevant than the other. Btw the key reason succesful block decks use DI is the "you don't block" cards, especially the likes of Elder Impersonation, Call of the Hungry Dead and Psychomachia. If you DI that you are most likely in the clear for that action (of course, you need combat to make sure you don't need a DI for the same thing the very next turn). -- Bye, Daneel

In message <opsihtc9...@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> mumbled something about: >On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:18:37 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Let's go back to our above example, shall we? >> >> You get Channel 10, Lucas Halton with a Bowl, and Anastazdi Zagreb out, >> somehow (remember that's 22 pool right there). I have Artemis with an >> Enchanted Marionette, and 2-3 dem/obf guys. > >That's like 20+ pool too. So your predator, who has Timothy Crowley and Except that my deck has room for Blood Dolls, and Kindred Spirits gains me a pool every time. I've been using it while he's been fetching Lucas and Zagreb; we're going to assume he has pulled at least one Minion Tap to cover my own bleeds. We can remove 2 of the dem/obf guys, and he can not have influenced Zagreb yet, but then I just rape his deck silly and he can't do anything about it. I was trying to be FAIR to him. >There, happy? Examples are all plentiful. One less relevant than the other. Correct, yours IS less relevant. Moving on with the discussion as we've all seen a !Malk stealth/bleed deck outpoolgain the Law Firm before. >Btw the key reason succesful block decks use DI is the "you don't block" Not that many block decks use DI, because many use Rotschreck. And DI is not a viable defense against "you don't block" cards, because you won't have enough of them in your deck. Many decks use at least 1 DI, because it's a superpowerful card. But don't confuse the DI you see in block decks with "I'm going to DI the Elder Impersonation!!11". That's not why it's there. It's there to DI the opposing trump combat. >cards, especially the likes of Elder Impersonation, Call of the Hungry >Dead and Psychomachia. If you DI that you are most likely in the clear >for that action (of course, you need combat to make sure you don't need >a DI for the same thing the very next turn). By the way, his deck doesn't include DI; this leaves my example quite germane to the situation at hand. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ector wrote: > I wonder, why nobody plays Robert Carter, then? Why Gangrels are > complaining about having no bleed modifiers and still avoid him? :) He's popular as hell, as far as I can ascertain. And I don't recall hearing "Gangrel players" (of which I would be one, I suppose) complaining about much of anything. Because they win tournaments all the time. Just like the !Malks. Oh wait.... > I > guess that cards that constantly drain blood from your vampire would > never be popular, even if there would be a lot of ways to regain the > blood. In this case, Polaris Coach makes the vampire an obvious > target, and he cannot even hide in Secure Haven. > I guess the Coach is more suitable for combat clans, not !Malks. Govern, Conditioning, and Deflection all "drain blood off your vampires", for example. Yes, I'm aware that there are differences between the two scenarios, but the overall effect when your deck is working is "I transform this here blood into that there effect." Big deal. Blood management has to be accounted for, but it's rarely going to be the design hurdle holding you back. > Maybe, you're right, but IMHO "Fast Eddie" is killed by the Bowl, as > it obviously has not enough stealth. Anyway, I don't think that such > aggressive decks have time to find Polaris Coaches and equip them. Oh they "have" the time. They have more time than most any other deck, because they can take a turn completely off to tool up, then get right back to the business of dishing out 10+ pool a turn. They just don't bother, and probably rightly so. It would help you in your analysis of what's good and what's bad, I think, to widen the scope of your inquiry beyond "my one minion against my prey's one minion." It sounds to me like that's sometimes as far as you take it, with pronouncements like "Kindred Spirits is killed by the bowl. > Did you think about Charlton + Fast Reaction? This combo will > intimidate ALL clans, not just !Malks. I block with Charlton, dodge, > then my Miller Delmardigan plays Fast Reaction, strikes for +2, Blur, > +2 more, and +2 more. Or my Ana Rita Montana plays Fast Reaction and > Chiropteran Marauder? Surely, Fast Reaction did exist before, but you > had to leave two vamps untapped or waste extra Wakes. Many of us have examined Fast Reaction, and I believe the consensus is that it is not that good of a card. I don't see the existance of Charlton significantly changing that, because when I say good what I really mean is "can win tables", not beat the tar out of a vampire. Blocking decks can certainly work, but they are far, far from being "good" at it. Fast Eddie, now there's a deck that's good at it. Lucky to be an !Malk, eh? > But you're right, !Malks suffer most from the Charlton. Moreover, they > cannot diablerize safely even with a vote lock now. You know, I've got a bit of a persecution complex when it comes to Assamites. At the end of the day I think I'm right about the big happy humping that they, ridiculously, continue to recieve set after set right up until this day. But it is goddamn hilarious to hear that same song coming from some guy about the Malkavian Antitribu. I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for the excellent, *excellent* entertainment! -- David Cherryholmes

In message <2nm3r0lddo98vcla3...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes: >Fortunately, intercept decks almost never pack Rush, Which I think is a big mistake, really. This also ties into Ector saying: >How wonderful! I KNOW that Channel 10 cannot be used on the first >action, but I don't think that ANY deck can win using only one action >per turn. Except for Arika + Secure Haven, maybe :) I think not packing at least some rush in a largely intercept deck is a big mistake, and part of the reason why intercept decks (as a class[0]) do badly and have a bad reputation. Where I think intercept can do well is in keeping you around for a long time to do shit, especially when teamed up with combat. Then you can exploit, say, the power of permanent cards - Laptops, locations, whatever it is that works for you. Where it does badly is that you can't make people act - and there are some kick ass decks that don't do it much, anyway. Anarch Revolt/Anson decks, say. If Anson doesn't act, you can't block him and destroy him. Ditto quite a few annoying vampires who are in there for kick-ass specials, rather than cool actions they can take, or whatever. Some people have suggested doing that with e.g. the Baali, for instance. Leave them tapped, use the special on the particular vampire. So, (some) rush in intercept decks is good++. I particularly like Nose of the Hound, for the Auspex decks, though a mix of that and Bum's Rush would probably be best. [0] i.e. there are good ones out there but... [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<C5czwEF$CasB...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > It's disheartening to know that the time the rest of us put in > responding to your points is actually ignored. You think the !Malks are > dead, and nothing we can say will convince you otherwise - because you > don't read it, even when you respond to it and quote it in the line > above your text. :/ I apologize for this... but if you were me, you'd likely behave the same way :)I'm forced to discuss several themes at once, and each other person can just share his wisdom. It's really easy to get lost in the threads. BTW, do you really think that "vote-stealing" with Derange is really good? Ector.

David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<31ebmjF...@individual.net>... > Ector wrote: > > > I wonder, why nobody plays Robert Carter, then? Why Gangrels are > > complaining about having no bleed modifiers and still avoid him? :) > > He's popular as hell, as far as I can ascertain. And I don't recall > hearing "Gangrel players" (of which I would be one, I suppose) > complaining about much of anything. Because they win tournaments all > the time. Just like the !Malks. Oh wait.... I found only one Robert Carter in The Lasombra's TWDA, and it's the mentioned "Fast Eddie" deck. Seems strange for a card that's "popular like hell"... > > I > > guess that cards that constantly drain blood from your vampire would > > never be popular, even if there would be a lot of ways to regain the > > blood. In this case, Polaris Coach makes the vampire an obvious > > target, and he cannot even hide in Secure Haven. > > I guess the Coach is more suitable for combat clans, not !Malks. > > Govern, Conditioning, and Deflection all "drain blood off your > vampires", for example. Yes, I'm aware that there are differences > between the two scenarios, but the overall effect when your deck is > working is "I transform this here blood into that there effect." Big > deal. Blood management has to be accounted for, but it's rarely going > to be the design hurdle holding you back. YOU control the blood draining from Governs, Conditionings and Deflections. You decide whether the vamp can play these cards or he is already low on blood, so you'd better play them with another vamp. Cards like Robert Carter and Polaris Coach don't allow you to make any decisions: you MUST spend one blood per turn, even if it's the last point of blood on the vampire, or lose the card. > > > Maybe, you're right, but IMHO "Fast Eddie" is killed by the Bowl, as > > it obviously has not enough stealth. Anyway, I don't think that such > > aggressive decks have time to find Polaris Coaches and equip them. > > Oh they "have" the time. They have more time than most any other deck, > because they can take a turn completely off to tool up, then get right > back to the business of dishing out 10+ pool a turn. They just don't > bother, and probably rightly so. Oh, but there was "to find and equip", not just "to equip". I really doubt that ultra-agressive decks can play a lot of Coaches... And the vamp needs to spend two blood to get ANY effect from the Coach, so it probably won't be played on 4-5 capacity vamps that populate weenie decks. > It would help you in your analysis of what's good and what's bad, I > think, to widen the scope of your inquiry beyond "my one minion against > my prey's one minion." It sounds to me like that's sometimes as far as > you take it, with pronouncements like "Kindred Spirits is killed by the > bowl. "My one against my prey's one"? Never thought this way. > > Did you think about Charlton + Fast Reaction? This combo will > > intimidate ALL clans, not just !Malks. I block with Charlton, dodge, > > then my Miller Delmardigan plays Fast Reaction, strikes for +2, Blur, > > +2 more, and +2 more. Or my Ana Rita Montana plays Fast Reaction and > > Chiropteran Marauder? Surely, Fast Reaction did exist before, but you > > had to leave two vamps untapped or waste extra Wakes. > > Many of us have examined Fast Reaction, and I believe the consensus is > that it is not that good of a card. I don't see the existance of > Charlton significantly changing that, because when I say good what I > really mean is "can win tables", not beat the tar out of a vampire. > Blocking decks can certainly work, but they are far, far from being > "good" at it. Fast Eddie, now there's a deck that's good at it. Lucky > to be an !Malk, eh? There are many ways to "win tables". Maybe, S&B deck WAS the easiest way, but it isn't the easiest anymore. Speaking about Fast Reaction: if you are going to play Charltons, a lot of combat cards and vamps with Auspex anyway, why aren't you going to use almost safe way to kill the opposing vampires? You won't need to pack extra intercept (Charlton's +1 intercept can block many actions) - just play your Fast Reaction and kill. > > But you're right, !Malks suffer most from the Charlton. Moreover, they > > cannot diablerize safely even with a vote lock now. > > You know, I've got a bit of a persecution complex when it comes to > Assamites. At the end of the day I think I'm right about the big happy > humping that they, ridiculously, continue to recieve set after set right > up until this day. But it is goddamn hilarious to hear that same song > coming from some guy about the Malkavian Antitribu. I just wanted to > take a moment to thank you for the excellent, *excellent* entertainment! I've just posted a deck based on advanced Hannibal with a huge vampires and Minion Taps to regain pool. As the deck has no Voter Captivations and it wants to use blood-expensive abilities, it must regain blood with the other methods. Surely, I could play Giant's Blood (only one in a game), Fifth Tradition etc. etc., but diablerizing the vampire after shooting from Ivory Bow or playing Coma seemed attractive enough. But Charlton completely changes this - would you dare to diablerie if you suspect that somebody plays him? And he is going to be quite popular, since he is really good. Now you can laugh if you wish - I am really glad to entertain you :) Ector

> I reiterate this point. Why don't you just learn to play better? Well' maybe the reason lies in "wonderful" teachers like you? At least I'm trying to post some arguments, not insults. > >> [08:58] <beerbot> Enchanted Marionette: Equipment, !Malkavian, 3 pool > >> [08:58] <beerbot> Unique equipment. > >> [08:58] <beerbot> The Malkavian antitribu with this equipment gets +1 > >> bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding. > > > >How wonderful! I KNOW that Channel 10 cannot be used on the first > >action, but I don't think that ANY deck can win using only one action > >per turn. Except for Arika + Secure Haven, maybe :) > > Have you only played this game for a few weeks or something? Only a few months, really. Should I play a couple of years more and return? > >Enchanted Marionette is good, barring the facts that it can be blocked > >and it makes your vampire target No.1 on the table. I guess you are > > Fortunately, intercept decks almost never pack Rush, and the Enchanted > Marionette is not going to get you cross-table Rushed until you actually > oust your prey. Can you explain to a newbie like me the fact that only one of the five tournament-winning !Malk S&B decks in 2004 used Enchanted Marionette? And why these decks almost never use Pulse of the Canaille? I assume that the primary reasons are fear of Archon Investigation and table wrath. > >going to suggest creating a "bleeding monster" with the Marionette, > >Dive into Madness or even Pulse of the Canaille and bleed only once > >per turn? Did you ever encounter bounce? You know... bounce... > >bounce... BOUNCE??? > > No, you can bleed more than once per turn. You just don't know how, and > you aren't willing to listen to the rest of us telling you. > > Intercept decks rarely pack much bounce. You may get Telepathically > Misdirected once or even twice, but very soon you're going to be all > good to go. Dedicated intercept deck, maybe. But the new cards enable very powerful "casual intercept" decks like Tremere Magic of the Smith/Bowl decks. They can easily pack, say, 6 Telepathic Misdirections and 3 Deflections. > >> Oh, look! +1 stealth! How convenient. So Artemis kits up with the > >> Marionette, and his first action every turn is Kindred Spirits, Eyes of > >> Chaos, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation. Bleed of 5, and Channel 10 > >> and the Bowl are just dead worthless against it. Add a few more stealth > >> cards (easy to do, have you ever even built a stealth bleed deck?) and > >> you're set against the rest of his vamps. > > > >Really, how convenient... Kindred Spirits, Eyes, FN, Elder > >Impersonation... bleeding for 5 having only +1 stealth... just to see > >Second Tradition played by ANOTHER vampire that blocks and torporizes > > You know, dude, you really have a bad case of "my deck can do everything > and it will beat yours" disease. Above, I indicated "add a few more > stealth cards". I would assume you would add Lost In Crowds to this, > which allows you to bypass the 2nd tradition player, who will REMAIN > TAPPED. But at this point, you've got so much intercept in the deck > that it isn't capable of going forward, and won't win, so it's kind of > irrelevant -- I am not worried about facing this deck. > > Plus, all you have to do is nail someone once with the above combo and > all their guys are tapped -- and now you're attacking their untap, not > their intercept, rendering the Bowl and Channel 10 close to irrelevant. Maybe, you're right. It's really hard to predict how much additional stealth is needed, and would it make the deck absurd or not (i.e. "what can I do with my 50 stealth cards if nobody blocks me"). Most S&B decks already have 30 stealth cards or even more. > >And again, don't forget about bounce and Archon Investigation. Heavy > >bleeds aren't profitable, at least in tournaments. > > Clearly you have never played in a tournament. Heavy bleeds are QUITE > profitable, despite the prevalence of bounce and AI. Fortunately, I played some tournaments, though our metagame is strange due to the lack of cards. I played the most traditional !Malk Kindred Spirits S&B for a few months, including one tournament. > I have won a major tournament (Dragon*Con) with Giovanni "don't block" > bleed -- Seduction, +1 stealth from Bonding, and Call of the Hungry Dead > to stop a second blocker. I ran over a Tzimisce intercept wall to get > there, because he couldn't afford to get more than two vampires out (an > 8 and a 7) because I was bleeding him so fast. You definitely have much more experience with "don't block" decks. Surely, such decks can negate the new cards, but the traditional Kindred Spirits deck isn't viable anymore. Elder Impersonations and Faceless Nights are good, but you'll need them both (or Faceless Nights + many other stealth cards) to tap the Bowling vampire. What if you don't have all the needed cards? Cycle until you find them? But S&B decks should be fast... > >Well, I won't explain what YOUR post reveals... Please think about it > >yourself. By the way, our playgroup already shifted from Rush-only > >decks to the various diversified metagame. > > Yeah, I've thought about it, and what I see is you being a crying little > baby because you don't want to adapt your decks to deal with a changing > metagame. Suck it up, boy, figure it out, move on. Who said you that I cannot adapt? Surely I can! I've just won the local Infernal Plague Storyline tournament with DOM/OBF Malks (1-2 groups) + Arika, and it would be quite easy to remake the deck with Seductions. It was clear to me even prior to the discussion, as well as the fact that Kindred Spirits S&B is dying. Ector

Ector wrote: > as the fact that Kindred Spirits S&B is dying. > > Ector Last time I saw KS S&B was during the EC. My grand prey, hunting weenie dominate bleed, hunting weenie dominate bleed. There was nothing we could to to prevent the Malk/!Malk from grabbing 2 VP, and the only thing enabling me to force a time out was my playing a dominate !bleed deck packing 16 wakes and 14 Deflection/Redirection. Dying deck type? Nopes. Sure, I would have preferred being his prey, but that's a totally different story :) Power bleeders are not, repeat, not, hosed by intercept. They really dislike bounce though, especially the S&B type. Playing S&B I'd be a lot less afraid of intercept compared to weenie rush. Playing S&B, which I usually avoid, I'd concentrate on vamps capacity 4 - 7 rather than 6 - 10, which is a common mistake I've been hunted by a number of times. Sten During

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BDD73441.1B5E3%pd...@lightlink.com>... > Ector wrote: > > > Channel 10 is fair, but the Bowl isn't. It can easily be fetched with > > Magic of the Smith or Vast Wealth, or even Alastor. > > Just look at my sample deck a few posts after this.. > > If you are worried about Bowl of Convergence, use your own. It is *unique*. > The Malkavians can even use Sibyl's Tounge to go get it quickly. Or you can > use Equipment hosers (Anarch Troublemaker?) that are incredibly useful in a > general sense, especially these days (what with all the Assault Rifles and > all). Or just use more stealth. Or block denial (Elder Intervention). Or > Coma them when they block you. > > I'm sooooo not seeing where the problem is. It is only functionally better > than a Sport Bike on someone with AUS. And they already have the ability to > block you anyway with Enhanced Senses and some back up transient intercept. > Here is the problem: intercept/combat decks can pack much less intercept cards now for the same efficiency, so they have more slots for combat cards, bleed cards and so on, or even for more intercept cards. If they pack more combat cards, they will torporize my minions each time they block it. If they pack more bleed & bounce cards, they would be able to bounce some of my bleeds and oust their prey first. And if they pack more intercept, they would block all my actions. There are some solutions, of course. Anarch Troublemaker is the best one. Packing Sibyl's Tongues won't be easy... current Kindred Spirits decks don't use the card. But I guess the deck would be quite possible, as we can fetch anything, though it would never be as effective as before. I can even try to build the deck. Ector

Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>... > h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid (Janne Hägglund) wrote in message news:<m3fz2ne...@nothung.homelinux.net>... > > I will now predict: > > > > <Dons a funny robe and a pointy hat> > > > > "The Lasombra's Tournament Winning Deck Archive will have a new Malkavian > > Antitribu deck - after Bowl of Convergence becomes legal, but before summer." > > > > <Takes off robe and hat> > > I'd be happy if this would really happen. I will gladly devote the > whole newsletter to the new deck, I will praise its creator etc. etc. > It's like the second coming of Messiah :) Many of us would be happy if > this would happen, but who really believes in this? :) Given the responses to your hyperbolic cries that the sky is falling onto the head of stealth/bleed, everyone who has posted in this thread seems to believe it. Let it go. Making sweeping generalizations ("Stealth/bleed is no longer a viable strategy!" "The Bowl is broken, though I've never seen it played!" "All stealth/bleed decks contain 4 Blood Dolls!") is incredibly damaging to your credibility, given that you have no actual data of any kind to back up these assertions. Quit it. If you're truly, truly tearing out your hair at the thought that you will no longer be able to bleed, without getting blocked, for 2-3 pool damage with 3-4 minions per turn (as all stealth/bleed decks do, of course), change your strategy. Newsletters should be a forum to discuss new ideas to suit the changing metagame and respond to new cards released in new sets, both those usable by your clan and those you know you're going to need to respond to. They are not personal soapboxes for their authors to rant about how their clan is screwed and why that clan needs more toys. Quit it already. If the printing of the Bowl is giving you nightmares, start using Blackmail, Change of Target, and Sleeping Mind at inferior (plenty of the poor, defenseless, terribly weak, table-sweeping vampires in your clan have inferior Dominate, which is all that you need for this substrategy). Stop whining that your old strategy, which you seem dedicated to increasing the effiency of despite the fact that it is already easily the most efficient winning strategy in the game, isn't working any more, and come up with a new strategy. That's what the evolution of CCGs is all about, and is why they are interesting to play.

In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: >I apologize for this... but if you were me, you'd likely behave the >same way :)I'm forced to discuss several themes at once, and each >other person can just share his wisdom. It's really easy to get lost >in the threads. The trick is to post less, but make it count. The other problem you're having, however, is that you're repeatedly trying to defend things which make very little sense to the rest of us. Posting things such as "Stealth bleed is dead", "The !Malks can only do stealth bleed" and so on are likely to lead to many raised eyebrows when the rest of us know the versatility they have. Another trick is to, say, have a text file that you have easily available (quick launch menu, short-cut from the desktop or whatever, depending on your OS) for interesting ideas. Just cut and paste the useful titbits from your news-reader into your text file, with a reference back to where it came from. >BTW, do you really think that "vote-stealing" with Derange is really >good? In the sense that you can plan for it? No. However, the repeatedly suggested Malk/!Malk Derange/PTO deck is potentially very strong - and uses big vampires, making Derange playable across a lot of vampires. Since you're using Derange for that anyway, it makes sense to use it to take out titles when you can as well - should you need to. The thing is, you really need the card to be there for something else, since if you only include it for vote defence, you're screwed if no-one is bothered by it. e.g. the Lasombra breed and power structure deck that bleeds a lot but has a few votes around for icing on the cake, so it doesn't matter that they lost a title (unless you played it early enough to annoy a Creation Rites angle, say) since they still have 8 votes from their weenies and Power Structure. Ditto a Presence deck that can still force things through with Bewitching Oration and Iron Glare, say, even leaving out the Awes. So, it's not an instant fix. But if you're having them around for some other reason (say, Malkavian Dementia as another option), it's worth considering. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: >Here is the problem: intercept/combat decks can pack much less >intercept cards now for the same efficiency, so they have more slots >for combat cards, bleed cards and so on, or even for more intercept >cards. Much less? No. Channel 10 is *extremely* double-edged. The Bowl of Convergence is unique. (As is Channel 10.) The more cards you pack to bring them out (e.g. Magic of the Smith), the fewer cards you're including anyway - with 2 Bowls and 6 Magics (the example deck you posted) would you necessarily be better off than with 2 Sport Bikes, 2 Enhanced Senses, 2 Precognition and 2 Spirit's Touch?[0] *All* unique equipment (and locations) suffer from the same problems - how many to include to get it?, how few to include to avoid jamming on them?, what to do if the deck which it will foil contests it? Additionally, as others have pointed out in recent discussions (not just this one), many intercept decks will try to pack several vampires capable of blocking you. Uber-good equipment is a big, BIG target for block cancellation. Sure, I'd probably put the Bowl in any reasonable deck that it might be useful in. But trying to rely on it strikes me as foolhardy. It's a bonus, not something you can guarantee sensibly. [0] This is a largely random assortment of stuff. But I like both Precognition and the Spirit's Touch. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes in response to Derek Ray: >> Have you only played this game for a few weeks or something? >Only a few months, really. Should I play a couple of years more and >return? No, but it would help to temper your visions of the death of stealth bleed with the fact that you *might* be missing something due to inexperience. [ quoted text not captured ]

I really dont see where is the problem here.. Lets see. We are giving the game an extra KRG news radio which is not, imho, as good as the krg news radio, and then we are giving the game a new Mr winthrop wich is great when you dont need it (/AUS/). Where is the problem? Plus: "Maybe" those cards *might* decrease S&B effectiveness. Ok. Where is the problem there? S&B decks are the most powerfull decks in the world once you set asside 300$/€ decks that pack 10 warghouls or whatever other uberexpensive-ubereffective 20$ card. Out of the tourneys, im pretty sure that every non-S&B player has just breathed happily. > If S&B bleeds will be constantly intercepted, it will lose. And S&B > CANNOT play only one action per turn to avoid Channel 10. Heavy bleeds > can be bounced or Investigated. The whole idea of S&B deck is bleeding > with several minions, but for 3 max each. Oxymoron alert goes on. If vote decks dont pass their votes, they will lose. If rush decks are constantly beaten in combat, they will lose. If intercept walls decks cant block , they will lose. If warghoul decks cant get a war ghoul, they will lose. If pool gain decks cant gain pool, they will lose. So yes, if a S&B deck is constantly intercepted, it will lose. It is just that S&B decks are intercepted as often as rush decks lose their combats or vote decks lose their referendums. Hardly ever. > Again, the whole idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3 > each. And this IDEA is crushed by Channel 10, Charlton and the Bowl. Charlton is nice against nonstealth decks (toreador voting or whatever), but it is useless in a intercept wall against Stealth decks, couse you DONT want to block him with charlton and you WILL play intercept anyway, so he will be playing more than 1 stealth. Chanel 10 is worst than KRG news radio and maybe worst than WMRH talk radio or the rumor's mill, imho, becouse they can be used in the first action. Bowl is good in AUS walls, but it is not THAT broken, really. It is just marginally better than Mr Winthrop WHEN you have AUS. > Somebody already posted about Raven Spies in the "10 new cards" > thread. But you cannot fetch them, and they can be killed, so a S&B > deck generally has enough time to finish its prey prior to "5 Raven > Spies" situation. The Bowl is completely different. Just look at my > sample deck: They CANT be killed by S&B decks, unless of course you play a Govern the Unalingned during Maneouver Step to go to long range, and then kill him with a Faceless night. :P. It can be killed by combat decks, but combat decks will be blocked with your wall deck anyway so who cares? I have a Lucas halton deck (but the rest are weenies in my deck). Mine can play up to 11 intercept (yours can get 6, i think), and pack Eagle sights to kill my prey vamps (something you should add to yours if you want to get a VP ever). I dont need more intercept on it, really, with eagle sights, enhanced senses, 2nd traditions, quicken sights, krg radio, marcia -the giovani which gives+1 intercept- mr wintrop,Telepathic misdirection. etc, it is more than enough. Really. You dont need more intercept. At all. Your problem is not that they pack enough stealth, becouse they wont. The problem is that they have elder intervention, which hoses you badly, and that they have kiss of ra, that directly kills you at all... About your deck,*yours* might need more intercept. If you do have only 2nd traditions and the bowl you will get only +4 intercept (at best +6 against second action). So when Arika is going to call a banishment on your lucas, or PTO on Yiytzak, or she is going to KRC/conservative you, or whatever, she will out stealth you with Lost in the crowds+forgotten laberinth. A bleeder can play lost in the crowd+faceless night+spying mission+swallowed by night (which are common cards in S&B decks anyway), even if they dont draw Elder impersonation. +4 intercept is not enough for a deck that lives or die when it blocks. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Which I think is a big mistake, really. > No it isnt. becouse... err... well... becouse....errr...well, you know... becouse...damn... *runs to pack a few bum rushes to his lucas halton deck* :D

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 12:02:48 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Correct, yours IS less relevant. Moving on with the discussion as we've > all seen a !Malk stealth/bleed deck outpoolgain the Law Firm before. Interesting, my favourite prey when I was playing my Law Firm was the !Malk SB. It can gain pool, so I'm not going to be the table threat as I'm cleaving through it 4-13 pool a turn. >> Btw the key reason succesful block decks use DI is the "you don't block" > > Not that many block decks use DI, because many use Rotschreck. And DI > is not a viable defense against "you don't block" cards, because you > won't have enough of them in your deck. I think Rötschreck is a pretty self-defeating card. It is annoying, but despite the annoyment I'd choose a wall prey with 6 Rötschrecks anytime over a prey with 6 DIs. > Many decks use at least 1 DI, because it's a superpowerful card. But > don't confuse the DI you see in block decks with "I'm going to DI the > Elder Impersonation!!11". That's not why it's there. It's there to DI > the opposing trump combat. Guess it also depends on the type of deck you use. I've seen wall decks with absolutely no combat - for these DI is probably better reserved against the Fast Hands or the Sideslip. If the deck can handle itself in combat, though, putting in the DIs with the explicit intention of getting around unblockability cards does not seem to be a bad idea to me. >> cards, especially the likes of Elder Impersonation, Call of the Hungry >> Dead and Psychomachia. If you DI that you are most likely in the clear >> for that action (of course, you need combat to make sure you don't need >> a DI for the same thing the very next turn). > > By the way, his deck doesn't include DI; this leaves my example quite > germane to the situation at hand. I'm not saying his deck is good or anything. I'm just saying that these "VTES in head" examples are pretty useless. IMHO. -- Bye, Daneel

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<rfn3r05lc0pbkh5rq...@4ax.com>... > > 6x Magic of the Smith > > Only 50% chance of getting a Magic in your first 10 cards. I'm not a huge fan of his deck either, but to be fair, he's got a higher chance (approx. 60%) of getting MotS and/or a Bowl in the first 10. Having the Bowl is nearly as good as having MotS, though the stealth would be nice. > >Ally [2] > > 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter) > > He's meaningless; +1 intercept won't stop a stealth bleed deck. Not meaningless; any intercept deck could use a good ally to handle DtDs and the like. Can't be KoR'd, either. Still, a deck with no weenies can't really afford the recruit action. (snip the points I agree with)

In message <75bdf7ed.04120...@posting.google.com>, emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<rfn3r05lc0pbkh5rq...@4ax.com>... >> > 6x Magic of the Smith >> >> Only 50% chance of getting a Magic in your first 10 cards. > >I'm not a huge fan of his deck either, but to be fair, he's got a >higher chance (approx. 60%) of getting MotS and/or a Bowl in the first >10. Having the Bowl is nearly as good as having MotS, though the >stealth would be nice. Nobody will let you equip the Bowl if they can help it, though. Having the Bowl is NOT nearly as good as having MotS, because more often than not, the stealth is going to be critical. I do not build decks that rely on sitting next to people who can only generate 0 intercept, because such decks lose. Therefore I do not consider the "equip the Bowl manually" to be an acceptable option, and therefore it does not merit consideration in the chances of whether he will be able to get a Bowl early. (Most S&B decks CAN block a +1 stealth action; DEM/obf decks get a boost here from Persia.) >> >Ally [2] >> > 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter) >> >> He's meaningless; +1 intercept won't stop a stealth bleed deck. > >Not meaningless; any intercept deck could use a good ally to handle >DtDs and the like. Can't be KoR'd, either. Still, a deck with no >weenies can't really afford the recruit action. He's meaningless for the purposes of comparison to a S&B deck, however. Against Daring the Dawn, he's good. Against a lot of decks, he's not half bad. Against S&B, he's irrelevant. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ector wrote: > Here is the problem: intercept/combat decks can pack much less > intercept cards now for the same efficiency, so they have more slots > for combat cards, bleed cards and so on, or even for more intercept > cards. But see, again, this isn't true. 'Cause the cards you are talking about a unique. So if you have a lot of them to insure that you get them early enough to actually rely on them, you are taking up whatever extra space you could have gained by using these permanents. And then, what happens if they are contested? Are you willing to include, what, 5 Bowl of Convergence as your main intercept booster if someone might just contest it and totally hose you? > There are some solutions, of course. Anarch Troublemaker is the best > one. Packing Sibyl's Tongues won't be easy... current Kindred Spirits > decks don't use the card. ??? What are you even talking about? "current Kindred Spirits" decks certainly can and likely often do use Sybil's Tounge. And if they aren't, they very well could if they are so worried about Bown of Convergence. Heck, a Malk S+B deck with 1 Bowl and 5 Sybil's Tounge is going to be more viable and robust than a Tremere deck with 1 Bowl and 5 Magic o the Smith, as Sybil's Tounge is *way* more versitile. > But I guess the deck would be quite > possible, as we can fetch anything, though it would never be as > effective as before. 'Cause you have 4 or 5 cards that you can turn into any other card you want? Yeah, you're right. That'll never work. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<RKiHczYH...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector > <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: > >I apologize for this... but if you were me, you'd likely behave the > >same way :)I'm forced to discuss several themes at once, and each > >other person can just share his wisdom. It's really easy to get lost > >in the threads. > > The trick is to post less, but make it count. > > The other problem you're having, however, is that you're repeatedly > trying to defend things which make very little sense to the rest of us. > Posting things such as "Stealth bleed is dead", "The !Malks can only do > stealth bleed" and so on are likely to lead to many raised eyebrows when > the rest of us know the versatility they have. Oh, I really gain a lot from the discussions. Frankly, it's the ONLY way I can communicate with the professional players and get their opinions. Do you think that somebody will waste his time writing a private mails to me? But it's really funny to prove the overconfident newbie (i.e. me) wrong. Don't you like to be a "devil's advocate"? :) > Another trick is to, say, have a text file that you have easily > available (quick launch menu, short-cut from the desktop or whatever, > depending on your OS) for interesting ideas. Just cut and paste the > useful titbits from your news-reader into your text file, with a > reference back to where it came from. Absolutely. I save each idea that looks good or at least promising enough. The previous discussuon provided material for TWO !Malk newsletters :) > >BTW, do you really think that "vote-stealing" with Derange is really > >good? > > In the sense that you can plan for it? No. > > However, the repeatedly suggested Malk/!Malk Derange/PTO deck is > potentially very strong - and uses big vampires, making Derange playable > across a lot of vampires. Since you're using Derange for that anyway, > it makes sense to use it to take out titles when you can as well - > should you need to. Thanks a lot, I completely got your point. Ector

In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about: >> I reiterate this point. Why don't you just learn to play better? >Well' maybe the reason lies in "wonderful" teachers like you? At least >I'm trying to post some arguments, not insults. I held up two cards you hadn't even considered in your rant, nor mentioned in your newsletter. I pointed out that there are many more strategies available than the ones you'd considered. Yep, I added some insults. You weren't listening to people when they didn't; I figure if anything makes you listen at all, that might. And look, it did! I think the reason you aren't learning is because you aren't willing to listen. Not everyone is going to present the education you are looking for on a silver platter; this doesn't mean you don't need to bite your tongue sometimes and seriously consider some of the positions presented. >> >> [08:58] <beerbot> Enchanted Marionette: Equipment, !Malkavian, 3 pool >> >> [08:58] <beerbot> Unique equipment. >> >> [08:58] <beerbot> The Malkavian antitribu with this equipment gets +1 >> >> bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding. >> > >> >How wonderful! I KNOW that Channel 10 cannot be used on the first >> >action, but I don't think that ANY deck can win using only one action >> >per turn. Except for Arika + Secure Haven, maybe :) >> >> Have you only played this game for a few weeks or something? > >Only a few months, really. Should I play a couple of years more and >return? Stick around, do whatever, but you need to understand that this game is not learned in only a few months of play, and certainly not in such a combat-tilted playgroup as you describe yours. And I can assure you with 100% confidence that you do NOT have enough experience, or enough skill at the game, to make broad, sweeping statements like "stealth bleed is dead". Some of us have been playing for many, many years (7 for me; 10 for most others). We have seen an awful lot of things and played in an awful lot of environments, and as such have acquired an awful lot of experience, and how certain changes affect the game. If you go look on Lasombra's site, there's an interesting article on how to win with intercept walls there you might consider reading. >> >Enchanted Marionette is good, barring the facts that it can be blocked >> >and it makes your vampire target No.1 on the table. I guess you are >> >> Fortunately, intercept decks almost never pack Rush, and the Enchanted >> Marionette is not going to get you cross-table Rushed until you actually >> oust your prey. > >Can you explain to a newbie like me the fact that only one of the five >tournament-winning !Malk S&B decks in 2004 used Enchanted Marionette? First: Skilled play can overcome poor deckbuilding choices. There are two main reasons I expect those decks didn't include it. 1. They don't own the card. It's rare. 2. It's a 3-pool investment. It's a huge hammer for 3 pool, since it allows you to bleed with Kindred Spirits for 3 at +1 stealth every turn, but it's still a 3-pool investment and many people are hesitant to invest that much in a non-bleeding action. >And why these decks almost never use Pulse of the Canaille? I assume >that the primary reasons are fear of Archon Investigation and table >wrath. AI only affects people who bleed for more than 3, so a Pulse wouldn't inherently hose most of the !Malks. You can control how much you bleed for if you're THAT worried about AI; I personally figure if AI is your last defense, you're boned anyway and it just costs me a vamp to get my VP. However, they don't use Pulse because of this: [21:52] <beerbot> [5] results for "!malkavian AUS under 7"; General Perfidio Díos (5); Idalia, Prophet of Guadalajara (4); The Colonel (5); Quira, The Bitch Queen (6); Dolphin Black (6) Of the five vampires with superior Auspex that are less than a 7-cap, one of them doesn't have Obfuscate, one of them doesn't have Dementation, and two of them have only inferior in both. Quira has OBF but is highly vulnerable to AI as a +1 bleeder (can no longer control her own destiny), leaving only Dolphin Black who can play the card and make effective use of it. Yuck. >> Intercept decks rarely pack much bounce. You may get Telepathically >> Misdirected once or even twice, but very soon you're going to be all >> good to go. > >Dedicated intercept deck, maybe. But the new cards enable very >powerful "casual intercept" decks like Tremere Magic of the Smith/Bowl No, Ector. This is where you are making statements that you just don't have the experience to make. You don't really understand what a powerful intercept deck is. Tremere intercept decks have one key problem; getting the hell beaten out of them by something that fights better than they do. They aren't superstrong combat; they are risking a lot every time they go into a fight. Those decks aren't as powerful as you think, and while you can surely build a Tremere intercept deck that can trash a stealth/bleeder, that same deck also has extreme difficulty winning. Couple that with the Kiss of Ra problem (still alive and well on the tournament scene due to the viability of the Tzimisce) the Tremere also face, and you start to realize that building a deck that can both win and beat up stealth bleed is a very, very difficult task. >decks. They can easily pack, say, 6 Telepathic Misdirections and 3 >Deflections. Or they could wisely pack 8 Deflections instead, throw out about half that intercept, add some more Wakes, and focus all that free space on stuff that ousts their prey. Stealth bleed has a lot more to worry about from Deflection than from intercept, honestly. >> Plus, all you have to do is nail someone once with the above combo and >> all their guys are tapped -- and now you're attacking their untap, not >> their intercept, rendering the Bowl and Channel 10 close to irrelevant. > >Maybe, you're right. It's really hard to predict how much additional >stealth is needed, and would it make the deck absurd or not (i.e. >"what can I do with my 50 stealth cards if nobody blocks me"). Most >S&B decks already have 30 stealth cards or even more. Many S&B decks double their additional stealth as maneuvers (swallowed), and pack cards like Revelations to remove key components from their prey's hand and allow them to play only ONE set of stealth cards per turn... meaning they can put in more bleed. The trick, as always, is to attack a deck where it's weak. Intercept decks are rarely weak on intercept; but they have serious trouble with untap at least once per game. Being prepared to take advantage of this will allow you to dunk them. >> >And again, don't forget about bounce and Archon Investigation. Heavy >> >bleeds aren't profitable, at least in tournaments. >> >> Clearly you have never played in a tournament. Heavy bleeds are QUITE >> profitable, despite the prevalence of bounce and AI. > >Fortunately, I played some tournaments, though our metagame is strange >due to the lack of cards. I played the most traditional !Malk Kindred >Spirits S&B for a few months, including one tournament. You do realize that "a strange metagame" is not an effective foundation from which to make broad, sweeping, universal claims, right? Chucking "bleed for 6!" in the pipe 3 times in a single turn will typically net you a 12-pool score and either an immediate oust, or a delayed oust next turn, at which point you no longer need to apologize to your grandprey for the Deflected bleed. Of course, if you run into someone with two Deflections in hand, it gets less tidy. >> I have won a major tournament (Dragon*Con) with Giovanni "don't block" >> bleed -- Seduction, +1 stealth from Bonding, and Call of the Hungry Dead >> to stop a second blocker. I ran over a Tzimisce intercept wall to get >> there, because he couldn't afford to get more than two vampires out (an >> 8 and a 7) because I was bleeding him so fast. > >You definitely have much more experience with "don't block" decks. And with stealth/bleed, believe it or not. I don't play it anymore (at least not the classic forms), but that doesn't mean I don't keep an eye on it to understand what I might face. >Surely, such decks can negate the new cards, but the traditional >Kindred Spirits deck isn't viable anymore. Elder Impersonations and >Faceless Nights are good, but you'll need them both (or Faceless >Nights + many other stealth cards) to tap the Bowling vampire. What if >you don't have all the needed cards? Cycle until you find them? But >S&B decks should be fast... Here you go again, making statements that you just don't have the experience or skill to correctly evaluate. Elder Imp and Faceless Night are more than enough to dunk the Bowl; and you only need to have it once or twice for the oust. I'm certain you do not realize how quickly good S&B moves, personally. >Who said you that I cannot adapt? Surely I can! I've just won the >local Infernal Plague Storyline tournament with DOM/OBF Malks (1-2 >groups) + Arika, and it would be quite easy to remake the deck with >Seductions. It was clear to me even prior to the discussion, as well >as the fact that Kindred Spirits S&B is dying. But see, your "fact" is a crock of shit. =) Again, I refer you to Maris Streck -- if that didn't kill Kindred Spirits S&B, nothing that is only "tons of intercept" will. A minion like Maris who could burn a blood to untap another one of your minions once per action, now, THAT might have a chance to break S&B decks, if only for the Deflection potential. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <opsijp3s...@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> mumbled something about: >On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 12:02:48 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Correct, yours IS less relevant. Moving on with the discussion as we've >> all seen a !Malk stealth/bleed deck outpoolgain the Law Firm before. > >Interesting, my favourite prey when I was playing my Law Firm >was the !Malk SB. It can gain pool, so I'm not going to be the >table threat as I'm cleaving through it 4-13 pool a turn. You mean, against weak players you won't be the table threat. Against strong players, you'll find that the !Malk deck carries Delaying Tactics, and the table will be all too eager to rein BOTH of you in for awhile. We've all seen a Law Firm deck too. We aren't going to just sit idly and let you oust someone. >> Not that many block decks use DI, because many use Rotschreck. And DI >> is not a viable defense against "you don't block" cards, because you >> won't have enough of them in your deck. > >I think Rötschreck is a pretty self-defeating card. It is annoying, but >despite the annoyment I'd choose a wall prey with 6 Rötschrecks anytime >over a prey with 6 DIs. I don't think Rotschreck is broken either, but this doesn't change the fact that if you're using Rotschreck, you have to choose between it and DI -- and you want more Rotschreck than DI, because Rotschreck protects you in combat where DI doesn't. And Rotschreck is a strong card. It takes a lot of skill to use correctly, but played at the right time, it can permanently erase people. But the one-per-turn means it takes a LOT of skill. >> Many decks use at least 1 DI, because it's a superpowerful card. But >> don't confuse the DI you see in block decks with "I'm going to DI the >> Elder Impersonation!!11". That's not why it's there. It's there to DI >> the opposing trump combat. > >Guess it also depends on the type of deck you use. I've seen wall decks >with absolutely no combat - for these DI is probably better reserved Oh, you mean "losing" wall decks. Those are funny. Catch the mail truck, then don't know what to do with it and get their asses kicked. >against the Fast Hands or the Sideslip. If the deck can handle itself >in combat, though, putting in the DIs with the explicit intention of >getting around unblockability cards does not seem to be a bad idea to me. No deck is perfect in combat. Typically ranged agg is exactly what the wall deck's fear is -- because its own vampires are precious, and it cannot afford to have them dunked out-of-turn. Especially those that use tasty permanents like a Sniper Rifle and Bowl of Convergence... >>> cards, especially the likes of Elder Impersonation, Call of the Hungry >>> Dead and Psychomachia. If you DI that you are most likely in the clear >>> for that action (of course, you need combat to make sure you don't need >>> a DI for the same thing the very next turn). >> >> By the way, his deck doesn't include DI; this leaves my example quite >> germane to the situation at hand. > >I'm not saying his deck is good or anything. I'm just saying that these >"VTES in head" examples are pretty useless. IMHO. Possibly useless... unless you've played enough, and studied the game enough from a perspective of "ok, how do I win this game, anyway?" to understand how things tend to flow in a game. Studying it from a perspective of "woo, i'm playing a theme deck!" is the best way to get a completely incorrect view of how things flow, because you're never looking at it from a position of strength. [ quoted text not captured ]

The Cadaverous Verger <cadavero...@REMOVETHISpriest.com> wrote in message news:<cos9ie$csk$1...@bowmore.utu.fi>... > Ector wrote: > > Did I say that the Bowl and Channel 10 are going to be THE > > ONLY intercept cards? Second Tradition will definitely remain, as well > > as Quicken Sight and Read the Winds. Vampires with inbuilt +1 > > intercept will also be quite popular... > > Bollocks. It's not as if everyone is suddenly going to start playing > intercept wall decks just to piss off stealthbleeders. Maybe in your > metagame, but these two cards definitely won't cause a sudden change in > playstyles universally. My point was that even not-so-dedicated intercept decks can regularly block stealth-bleed now. Any bruise & bleed deck with Auspex can use Bowls, Channels and Charltons. So, S&B decks would have to pack much more stealth if they really wish to avoid being blocked, but having too much stealth would ruin the deck if nobody would block it. Thus, I doubt that !Malk S&B will remain viable. > I really don't see the point in all this. One new intercept location > that is about on par with, say, KRCG + Rumor Mill controlled by the same > Meth. Since when have locations or equipment been exceedingly hard to > burn or steal? And with multiple intercept locations you had to do > something to all of them, with Channel 10 there's just one card that you > have to get rid of... and said location can't even be used to intercept > an Arson targeting it if you arsonize it as your first action, non? Channel 10 is a fair card (the Bowl isn't). But S&B decks cannot pack a lot of Arsons or wait for Arson. They should act quickly or lose. Ector

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 22:22:37 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Interesting, my favourite prey when I was playing my Law Firm >> was the !Malk SB. It can gain pool, so I'm not going to be the >> table threat as I'm cleaving through it 4-13 pool a turn. > > You mean, against weak players you won't be the table threat. > > Against strong players, you'll find that the !Malk deck carries Delaying > Tactics, and the table will be all too eager to rein BOTH of you in for > awhile. We've all seen a Law Firm deck too. We aren't going to just > sit idly and let you oust someone. Why not let a Law Firm oust? I'm offended. No, really. ;) Actually, there's never two table threats. I mean, the !Malk rings the bells of immediate danger and the Law Firm would only come in as secondary, mid-term danger. The !Malk has DTs, and that cancels some referendums, but not all. I mean, you need 3 DTs each turn to cancel each of Parity Shift, Kine and Conservative. I've also found the cards Anarchist Uprising and Ancilla Empowerment to be somewhat crude but highly effective. >> I think Rötschreck is a pretty self-defeating card. It is annoying, but >> despite the annoyment I'd choose a wall prey with 6 Rötschrecks anytime >> over a prey with 6 DIs. > > I don't think Rotschreck is broken either, but this doesn't change the > fact that if you're using Rotschreck, you have to choose between it and > DI -- and you want more Rotschreck than DI, because Rotschreck protects > you in combat where DI doesn't. Yeah, given a desire to have permanent staying power you cannot include 6 Rötschreck and 6 DI. It's probably either one or the other. > And Rotschreck is a strong card. It takes a lot of skill to use > correctly, but played at the right time, it can permanently erase > people. But the one-per-turn means it takes a LOT of skill. I agree. Waiting for the excellent opportunity often means passing mediocre, average and decent opportunities. Sometimes the temptation is just too great for that. Though as for skill, playing against Rötschreck can be made almost painless if you know how to avoid it and accept that at least one of your guys will be kept in bay. >> Guess it also depends on the type of deck you use. I've seen wall decks >> with absolutely no combat - for these DI is probably better reserved > > Oh, you mean "losing" wall decks. Those are funny. Catch the mail > truck, then don't know what to do with it and get their asses kicked. Yeah, well, kind of like Martin Weinmayer's Tremere Wall deck that I think even won a Hungarian tournament or Stefan Ferenci's weenie AUS wall that won EC2003. The latter had some minor combat though, like a dodge or two and a Concealed or two. You not knowing about it does not mean it's not feasible. ;) >>> By the way, his deck doesn't include DI; this leaves my example quite >>> germane to the situation at hand. >> >> I'm not saying his deck is good or anything. I'm just saying that these >> "VTES in head" examples are pretty useless. IMHO. > > Possibly useless... unless you've played enough, and studied the game > enough from a perspective of "ok, how do I win this game, anyway?" to > understand how things tend to flow in a game. If you played enough to understand the flow of the game you won't need examples like "I have this and that, you have these and those, and see how I can oust you on paper in a single turn..." kind of stuff. You'll need, like, what you wrote before. 5 Deflections are few, 4 transient Intercept is few, etc. > Studying it from a perspective of "woo, i'm playing a theme deck!" is > the best way to get a completely incorrect view of how things flow, > because you're never looking at it from a position of strength. I think that every deck should be build and tried. Tried over and over. That yields insight beyond analysis. After a while people will have a knack for telling what is good and what is bad in a deck, but that is not a science. It is primarily based on vast experience, and works best for the deck types one actually tried. The usefullness of analysing a deck abruptly stops right at the end of assessing it from a generic POV. There is no point IMHO in going any more specific than that. -- Bye, Daneel

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<gK+LcIa3...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector > <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: > >Here is the problem: intercept/combat decks can pack much less > >intercept cards now for the same efficiency, so they have more slots > >for combat cards, bleed cards and so on, or even for more intercept > >cards. > > Much less? No. > > Channel 10 is *extremely* double-edged. The Bowl of Convergence is > unique. (As is Channel 10.) The more cards you pack to bring them out > (e.g. Magic of the Smith), the fewer cards you're including anyway - > with 2 Bowls and 6 Magics (the example deck you posted) would you > necessarily be better off than with 2 Sport Bikes, 2 Enhanced Senses, 2 > Precognition and 2 Spirit's Touch?[0] Really? If you get one of my 8 cards, you effectively get a Bowl that provides +1 intercept always and +1 more if needed. If you get one of your 8 cards, you get either +1 permanent intercept (Bike) or +1/+2 one-shot intercept. IMHO, the difference is HUGE, even if you forget about +3 stealth from Magic. > *All* unique equipment (and locations) suffer from the same problems - > how many to include to get it?, how few to include to avoid jamming on > them?, what to do if the deck which it will foil contests it? > Additionally, as others have pointed out in recent discussions (not just > this one), many intercept decks will try to pack several vampires > capable of blocking you. Uber-good equipment is a big, BIG target for > block cancellation. If I have Magic of the Smith, or Vast Wealth I may get my equipment without blockers. And if I get my equipment first (which is likely with MotS), I can try to block the vampire that's trying to contest my equipment. > > Sure, I'd probably put the Bowl in any reasonable deck that it might be > useful in. But trying to rely on it strikes me as foolhardy. It's a > bonus, not something you can guarantee sensibly. > [0] This is a largely random assortment of stuff. But I like both > Precognition and the Spirit's Touch. You can serve it as you wish. It may be uber-intercept deck with Precognition, Spirit's Touches AND Bowls/Channels, or it may be just casual intercept like my sample deck... The problem is that even the "casual" intercept is a huge problem to all stealth decks now. I may suggest the "uber-intercept" deck with Carna, Aisling and others, if you wish, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about :) But I afraid that the "uber-intercept" deck isn't needed nowadays, as stealth deck are going to be much less popular. Ector

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BDD8EEFA.1B6C0%pd...@lightlink.com>... > Ector wrote: > > > Here is the problem: intercept/combat decks can pack much less > > intercept cards now for the same efficiency, so they have more slots > > for combat cards, bleed cards and so on, or even for more intercept > > cards. > > But see, again, this isn't true. 'Cause the cards you are talking about a > unique. So if you have a lot of them to insure that you get them early > enough to actually rely on them, you are taking up whatever extra space you > could have gained by using these permanents. And then, what happens if they > are contested? Are you willing to include, what, 5 Bowl of Convergence as > your main intercept booster if someone might just contest it and totally > hose you? No. Two Bowls and several Magics of the Smiths would be enough. I can even imagine a deck using some !Malks to play Sibyl's Tongues for the Bowl. Assamites can do it quite easily, since they share OBF with !Malks... Pack The Colonel for his cel+obf+AUS, and he would bounce and play Tongues. > > There are some solutions, of course. Anarch Troublemaker is the best > > one. Packing Sibyl's Tongues won't be easy... current Kindred Spirits > > decks don't use the card. > > ??? > > What are you even talking about? "current Kindred Spirits" decks certainly > can and likely often do use Sybil's Tounge. And if they aren't, they very > well could if they are so worried about Bown of Convergence. Heck, a Malk > S+B deck with 1 Bowl and 5 Sybil's Tounge is going to be more viable and > robust than a Tremere deck with 1 Bowl and 5 Magic o the Smith, as Sybil's > Tounge is *way* more versitile. Just look into TWDA. Current Kindred Spirits decks don't use Sibyl's Tongue since they have no time for it, and they have no free slots. I use one Tongue to increase chances of getting Info Highway/Secure Haven in time, but the reason of this os a lack of Kindred Spirits, as I have only 12 :) Ector

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<s7b3r05rs7v09v136...@4ax.com>... > On 4 Dec 2004 04:23:59 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote: > > >Again, the whole idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3 > >each. > > No, YOUR idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3 each. > > > Bleeding at stealth is nowhere near as limited as you make it out to > be. > OK, let's say that Kindred Spirits deck bleeds with 3-4 minions for 2-3 each, right? :) At least it tries to NOT playing its Eyes of Chaos with Kindred Spirits if it can play it on different bleed action. This minimizes risk of bounce and Archon Investigation. Ector

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2ab3r09a1bcp7pn0l...@4ax.com>... > On 4 Dec 2004 04:23:59 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote: > > >Somebody already posted about Raven Spies in the "10 new cards" > >thread. But you cannot fetch them, > > Yes, you can. > > Muricia's Call > http://monger.vekn.org/showcard.html?ID=1141 > > The Summoning > http://monger.vekn.org/showcard.html?ID=999 > > There are tools available to decrease the falsity of your statements. > I would recommend you investigate them, as every argument you make > that contains falsehoods is easily (and rightly) discarded. Oh yes, yes, these cards exist, but who cares? Fetch cards are useful only if they provide substantial bonuses compared to extra copies of the fetching cards OR if you want to fetch a "combo" of several cards. If you have no other retainers except for Raven Spies, and you aren't playing Ahrimanes, why would you play Muricia's Call? The Summoning requires Presence (superior Presence is needed to be effective), and do you know a lot of good vampires with ANI and PRE? If there were good cards to fetch Raven Spies, they would be popular :) Ector

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<sob3r09pbuq28g3mp...@4ax.com>... > On 4 Dec 2004 04:23:59 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote: > > >If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :) > > There exists multiple fixes for your complaint. > > I will give you the easiest one, and let you start over. > > Direct Intervetion. > -Target the Magic of the Smith or the Bowl of Convergence. The silver bullet, and universal solution. They have more Magics and Bowls, so I should pack Anarch Troublemakers and Direct Interventions. I guess I'll be forced to get rid of other master cards to find place for them (i.e. remove Sudden Reversals), so it would be slower. And slow S&B deck is going to lose. > > Second fix: > Disguised Weapon - Flamethrower/Ivory Bow/Blow Torch/Rowan Ring > plus a second disposible weenie, like Yorik to follow up with the > diablerie. Again, I should find a place for all these cards, and they won't make my deck "bruise & bleed". If I put a lot of combat cards, I'll just get a pointless deck. > You have not been sufficiently creative if you feel your game is > destroyed by permanent intercept, especially permanent intercept > without damage prevention disciplines. Celerity has Sideslip to prevent damage from Ivory Bow. Well, I *may* be "not suffuciently creative", but permanent intercept is really dangerous for any stealth deck. > Sensory Deprivation destroys your stealth bleed game much more than > permanent intercept ever will. ONE Sensory Deprivation? Surely not. Kindred Spirits deck usually has 3-4 minions. Ector

Sten During <ya...@netg.se> wrote in message news:<31drr7F...@individual.net>... > Ector wrote: > > 2x Bowl of Convergence > > Exchange one for Mr. Wintrop. Why two uniques? > Where is Sire's Index Finger? Look, it's just a SAMPLE deck to demonstrate new cards usage. I placed Second Bowl to demonstrate that Anarch Troublemaker still DOESN'T kill the Bowl strategy, as you can fetch another. And they will be unable to play another Troublemaker :) > > 2x Channel 10 > > Again replace one. KRCG, for example? Maybe. But, again, this is a demo deck. And the first Channel can be destroyed. > Start praying you never see Kiss of Ra behind you. > Start praying your bleeding prey uses dementation as the > combination obf/dom, Stanislava bleed and, to some extent, > nec/dom kills your deck. > With four vamps you really, really don't want to face 'block > fails' in combination with Faceless Night. > > What happens if you run into the more traditional weenie > bleed I think we don't even need to cover here as you're > going to take ten points of pool-damage on average before > you see your first vamp influenced. This deck was NOT claimed to be the "best deck in the universe". But it really hoses Kindred Spirits decks, and it even isn't true intercept deck! > All that said, yes, I'll most probably replace one copy of > Sport Bike with one Bowl in a Tor gun deck - contestation > aside Bowl is a better card than Sport Bike. > I'd probably replace Rumor Mill with Channel Ten, but the main > point here is "replace", because decks using permanent intercepts > have that many slots available and no more, unless, of course, > I head in the direction of Anson "I promise this is no Anarch > Revolt deck" Parthenon decks to be able to slot in all the > "broken" masters to be able to retrieve the "broken" allies/ > retainers/equipment looping with Freak Drive and Toreador Grand > Ball, which says less about the two cards discussed here and more > about fortitude combined with Tor Grand Ball. OK, then please, try to build or proxy Kindred Spirits deck and play it against your decks with the new cards included. You will get precious testing information, and I'd like to know your feelings :) I bet you'd like to put extra copies of the Bowl/Channel after the testing. Ector

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BDD7362C.1B5E4%pd...@lightlink.com>... > Ector wrote: > > > If the Bowl couldn't be fetched, you'd be right, but... > > See my sample deck below :) > > Fetch your own. You have Sybil's Tounge. I can do it, but Sybil's Tongue requires ANOTHER action to equip it. And if I forced to include Tongues and Bowls, won't my deck become weaker? > > If S&B bleeds will be constantly intercepted, it will lose. And S&B > > CANNOT play only one action per turn to avoid Channel 10. Heavy bleeds > > can be bounced or Investigated. The whole idea of S&B deck is bleeding > > with several minions, but for 3 max each. > > That is the whole idea of your S+B deck, apparently. S+B isn't going > anywhere at all. Neither is any other strategy that uses heavy stealth. The > ability to reliably block any action *already exists*. And it hasn't > hampered S+B even remotely, in a strategic sense. Oh, it seems that you are missing my primary argument. It was really possible to create a deck that would block all actions, but the deck would have no ways to win. Please look at my sample deck: it is NOT an intercept deck. It has just a light intercept module (2 Bowls, 2 Channels, 2 Charltons and Second Traditions). It can play bruise and bleed from the very beginning, if you wish, BUT it still can regilarly block Kindred Spirits deck. And that's really bad for !Malks. > > Again, the whole idea of S&B is bleeding with 3-4 minions for 2-3 > > each. And this IDEA is crushed by Channel 10, Charlton and the Bowl. > > Hardly. Just look at any Kindred Spirits deck in TWDA and guess, can it provide at least +2 stealth or Elder Impersonation for any action or not. And the Bowl/Channel need +3 stealth. > > Somebody already posted about Raven Spies in the "10 new cards" > > thread. But you cannot fetch them, and they can be killed, so a S&B > > deck generally has enough time to finish its prey prior to "5 Raven > > Spies" situation. The Bowl is completely different. Just look at my > > sample deck: > > You don't need to fetch Raven Spies. You just play lots of them 'cause, see, > they aren't unique (like the bowl), so having 15 in a deck is actually > useful *and* it lets you build a strategy around having them. Heck, 3 or 3 > weenie minions, someone with ANI, and Shepards Innocence, and you can have 4 > Raven Spies on a single minion in a single turn. Again, 15 Raven Spies makes the deck totaly focused on intercept. 6 MotS and two Bowls not. The difference is huge. > > Deck Name : Bowling Tremeres > > Author : Ilya Ginsburg > > Description : AUS/CEL/THA with Bowls, Channels and Charltons > > (deck snipped) > > Ok. You have built an intercept wall deck that can stop actions a lot. Woo. > I could show you thirty of those in 4 minutes that will be just as effective > at stopping actions that don't use any of the new cards. But, see, the thing > is is that decks like that don't win. It has limited forward momentum (due > to lack of evasion of any sort--it's bleeds will be blocked easily). Limited > combat defense (it will be killed by decks that *want* to be blocked). And > even in the best of situations, it is going to get 2 VPs while its forward > inclined prey gets 3. Hardly something to worry about in a strategic sense. > Yeah, if a Malk S+B deck sitn next to it, it might be hosed. But then the > same thing happens if the Malk deck sits next to someone with 15 > Deflections. Intercept wall deck? Are you joking? This deck is just a sample of flexibility provided by the new cards. If your predator is S&B, fetch the Bowl first. If he plays Rush or Bruise & Bleed, fetch Ivory Bow. This deck can play BOTH intercept and bruise&bleed. I could even include Laptops. I can agree that it's far from optimal, but it should demonstrate that even non-dedicated intercept decks can block Kindred Spirits decks most of the times now. > > Intercept Decks Have To Pack Much Less Intercept Cards Now, And > > Therefore They Are Much Stronger. > > No they don't. Unique forms of Permanent Intercept are unreliable. Even > *with* Magic of the Smith. What is reliable in VteS? Playing transient cards is even less reliable. > > If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :) > > Just keep playing the game, and you'll prove yourself wrong eventually. Definitely, I'll try :) Ector

On 5 Dec 2004 23:44:08 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) scrawled: >James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<gK+LcIa3...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... >> Channel 10 is *extremely* double-edged. The Bowl of Convergence is >> unique. (As is Channel 10.) The more cards you pack to bring them out >> (e.g. Magic of the Smith), the fewer cards you're including anyway - >> with 2 Bowls and 6 Magics (the example deck you posted) would you >> necessarily be better off than with 2 Sport Bikes, 2 Enhanced Senses, 2 >> Precognition and 2 Spirit's Touch?[0] >Really? If you get one of my 8 cards, you effectively get a Bowl that >provides +1 intercept always and +1 more if needed. If you get one of >your 8 cards, you get either +1 permanent intercept (Bike) or +1/+2 >one-shot intercept. IMHO, the difference is HUGE, even if you forget >about +3 stealth from Magic. yes. in your deck, once you have one of your cards, the rest of them are dead draws that just clog your hand. with james's, it's all useful. >> Additionally, as others have pointed out in recent discussions (not just >> this one), many intercept decks will try to pack several vampires >> capable of blocking you. Uber-good equipment is a big, BIG target for >> block cancellation. >If I have Magic of the Smith, or Vast Wealth I may get my equipment >without blockers. not seeing how vast wealth acheives that, but anyway... salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

In message <opsiktfi...@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> mumbled something about: >On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 22:22:37 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>> Interesting, my favourite prey when I was playing my Law Firm >>> was the !Malk SB. It can gain pool, so I'm not going to be the >>> table threat as I'm cleaving through it 4-13 pool a turn. >> >> You mean, against weak players you won't be the table threat. >> >> Against strong players, you'll find that the !Malk deck carries Delaying >> Tactics, and the table will be all too eager to rein BOTH of you in for >> awhile. We've all seen a Law Firm deck too. We aren't going to just >> sit idly and let you oust someone. > >Why not let a Law Firm oust? I'm offended. No, really. ;) > >Actually, there's never two table threats. I mean, the !Malk rings Bzzt. This indicates you have not reached the threshold of knowledge to understand how what you just said is completely false, or to realize just how far in advance skilled players can and do look at a game. >the bells of immediate danger and the Law Firm would only come in >as secondary, mid-term danger. The !Malk has DTs, and that cancels >some referendums, but not all. I mean, you need 3 DTs each turn to >cancel each of Parity Shift, Kine and Conservative. I've also found You won't have all those in hand every turn, and the !Malk pool gains pretty darn well and moves faster than you do. >> I don't think Rotschreck is broken either, but this doesn't change the >> fact that if you're using Rotschreck, you have to choose between it and >> DI -- and you want more Rotschreck than DI, because Rotschreck protects >> you in combat where DI doesn't. > >Yeah, given a desire to have permanent staying power you cannot include >6 Rötschreck and 6 DI. It's probably either one or the other. If nothing else, because you only get 12 Master phase actions in a game, and I'm sure you want to play something besides OOT Masters. >> And Rotschreck is a strong card. It takes a lot of skill to use >> correctly, but played at the right time, it can permanently erase >> people. But the one-per-turn means it takes a LOT of skill. > >I agree. Waiting for the excellent opportunity often means passing >mediocre, >average and decent opportunities. Sometimes the temptation is just too >great >for that. Though as for skill, playing against Rötschreck can be made Lack of discipline = weak player. >almost >painless if you know how to avoid it and accept that at least one of your >guys will be kept in bay. Not all decks have the capacity to leave one guy in the bin. Know that Rotschreck requires aggravated damage. Do not be surprised when that damage reappears in a normal fashion against your deck. >>> Guess it also depends on the type of deck you use. I've seen wall decks >>> with absolutely no combat - for these DI is probably better reserved >> >> Oh, you mean "losing" wall decks. Those are funny. Catch the mail >> truck, then don't know what to do with it and get their asses kicked. > >Yeah, well, kind of like Martin Weinmayer's Tremere Wall deck that I think >even won a Hungarian tournament or Stefan Ferenci's weenie AUS wall that >won EC2003. The latter had some minor combat though, like a dodge or two >and a Concealed or two. You not knowing about it does not mean it's not >feasible. ;) Didn't both of those carry a number of Sniper Rifles and Magnums, too? That doesn't qualify as "absolutely no combat" to me. I think you better be careful what words you use in the future; maybe think before posting? >>>> By the way, his deck doesn't include DI; this leaves my example quite >>>> germane to the situation at hand. >>> >>> I'm not saying his deck is good or anything. I'm just saying that these >>> "VTES in head" examples are pretty useless. IMHO. >> >> Possibly useless... unless you've played enough, and studied the game >> enough from a perspective of "ok, how do I win this game, anyway?" to >> understand how things tend to flow in a game. > >If you played enough to understand the flow of the game you won't need >examples like "I have this and that, you have these and those, and see >how I can oust you on paper in a single turn..." kind of stuff. You'll >need, like, what you wrote before. 5 Deflections are few, 4 transient >Intercept is few, etc. You are foolish if you think that examples like those are not the best way to teach someone. I gave him the best possible setup for his deck (his favorite two vamps, one with a bowl, and channel 10 all in play), and then gave myself an average setup for mine (dem/obf weenies instead of all OBF or all DEM). When using examples like this, it is important to carefully arrange your test case so that your opponent has his ideal configuration, while you have an average one. Anyone who has played enough can easily identify a true "average" run for a deck, and the ideal config is usually what your opposition is trying to hold up as "average". >> Studying it from a perspective of "woo, i'm playing a theme deck!" is >> the best way to get a completely incorrect view of how things flow, >> because you're never looking at it from a position of strength. > >I think that every deck should be build and tried. Tried over and over. >That yields insight beyond analysis. After a while people will have a >knack for telling what is good and what is bad in a deck, but that is >not a science. It is primarily based on vast experience, and works best >for the deck types one actually tried. The usefullness of analysing a >deck abruptly stops right at the end of assessing it from a generic >POV. There is no point IMHO in going any more specific than that. First: What makes you think I haven't looked at Big Tremere Walls with permanents and 2nd Tradition in the past? Second: You're wrong, plain and simple. There's plenty of point, but only if you use meaningful test cases (as I did). [ quoted text not captured ]

Ector wrote: >>I really don't see the point in all this. One new intercept location >>that is about on par with, say, KRCG + Rumor Mill controlled by the same >>Meth. Since when have locations or equipment been exceedingly hard to >>burn or steal? And with multiple intercept locations you had to do >>something to all of them, with Channel 10 there's just one card that you >>have to get rid of... and said location can't even be used to intercept >>an Arson targeting it if you arsonize it as your first action, non? > > Channel 10 is a fair card (the Bowl isn't). But S&B decks cannot pack > a lot of Arsons or wait for Arson. They should act quickly or lose. What I'm about to say is, I think, fairly obvious. But I haven't seen anything like it crop up in your analysis of your clan and, by extension, stealth bleed. S+B does pool damage very quickly. Quick pool damage inhibits what your prey is even going to be able to put on the table. This results in an across the board weakening of *whatever* strategy they are using. In other words, if you are running these thought experiments with ideas like "I have 3 minions and he has 3 minions", then that may be a fundamental flaw that leads you to reason your way along to your (faulty, IMO) conclusions. Anyway, just a thought. I'm still trying to wrap my head around your POV, and thought maybe this oversight could be a cause. -- David Cherryholmes

Daneel wrote: > Yeah, well, kind of like Martin Weinmayer's Tremere Wall deck that I think > even won a Hungarian tournament or Stefan Ferenci's weenie AUS wall that > won EC2003. The latter had some minor combat though, like a dodge or two > and a Concealed or two. You not knowing about it does not mean it's not > feasible. ;) I wouldn't count the latter as a wall deck. It may block every bit as well as a wall deck, but it can swarm bleed when it chooses to. Hhhmmm... I can be a wall *and* I can be a swarm bleed deck. Nope, nothing excessively good to see here, move along. -- David Cherryholmes

[ quoted text not captured ] ... ... ...huh? Did I miss the point? -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > ... > > ...huh? > > Did I miss the point? I guess so. Derek asserted low combat wall decks don't oust, and you said they did, and cited a weenie deck as an example. To which I replied that you can't properly classify those as wall decks, as they have properties, i.e. the ability to bleed effectively for large amounts, that wall decks don't possess, making your example a poor one. -- David Cherryholmes

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 08:42:14 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Actually, there's never two table threats. I mean, the !Malk rings > > Bzzt. This indicates you have not reached the threshold of knowledge to > understand how what you just said is completely false, or to realize > just how far in advance skilled players can and do look at a game. It's not about seeing. It's about getting ousted _now_ and not having to worry about the next menace or using all it takes to thwart the immediate danger and perhaps live to see the next. >> the bells of immediate danger and the Law Firm would only come in >> as secondary, mid-term danger. The !Malk has DTs, and that cancels >> some referendums, but not all. I mean, you need 3 DTs each turn to >> cancel each of Parity Shift, Kine and Conservative. I've also found > > You won't have all those in hand every turn, and the !Malk pool gains > pretty darn well and moves faster than you do. Well, that's not my experience. The DEM SB may gain a pool or two each turn, but LF can steal that all with one Parity Shift. Been there and done that from both sides, and the Law Firm almost always has gotten the SB prey. Especially since you can give Parity Shift pool to your grandprey... ;) >> Yeah, given a desire to have permanent staying power you cannot include >> 6 Rötschreck and 6 DI. It's probably either one or the other. > > If nothing else, because you only get 12 Master phase actions in a game, > and I'm sure you want to play something besides OOT Masters. You have a remarkable way of sounding disapproving even when you basically restate what I wrote. I like that... ;) >> I agree. Waiting for the excellent opportunity often means passing >> mediocre, >> average and decent opportunities. Sometimes the temptation is just too >> great >> for that. Though as for skill, playing against Rötschreck can be made > > Lack of discipline = weak player. But, when a good opportunity comes you need to assess whether it is an opportunity worth taking, or just a bait. It all comes down to player skill in the end. Unless, of course, one deck completely trumps the other. >> almost >> painless if you know how to avoid it and accept that at least one of >> your >> guys will be kept in bay. > > Not all decks have the capacity to leave one guy in the bin. > > Know that Rotschreck requires aggravated damage. Do not be surprised > when that damage reappears in a normal fashion against your deck. Also note that Rötschreck is a form of defence as well as a way to circumvent prevention and S:CE. A deck that relies on Rötschreck may not be strong enough without it. >> Yeah, well, kind of like Martin Weinmayer's Tremere Wall deck that I >> think >> even won a Hungarian tournament or Stefan Ferenci's weenie AUS wall that >> won EC2003. The latter had some minor combat though, like a dodge or two >> and a Concealed or two. You not knowing about it does not mean it's not >> feasible. ;) > > Didn't both of those carry a number of Sniper Rifles and Magnums, too? > That doesn't qualify as "absolutely no combat" to me. I think you > better be careful what words you use in the future; maybe think before > posting? Check the rulebook for definition of combat cards. By the way, Stefan's deck was pretty light on combat equipment too - in fact, it won the EC finals with numbers, bounce, intercept and punches for 1. >> If you played enough to understand the flow of the game you won't need >> examples like "I have this and that, you have these and those, and see >> how I can oust you on paper in a single turn..." kind of stuff. You'll >> need, like, what you wrote before. 5 Deflections are few, 4 transient >> Intercept is few, etc. > > You are foolish if you think that examples like those are not the best > way to teach someone. I gave him the best possible setup for his deck > (his favorite two vamps, one with a bowl, and channel 10 all in play), > and then gave myself an average setup for mine (dem/obf weenies instead > of all OBF or all DEM). Are you talking about illustrating a point to an experienced player who has a grasp of the game flow, or are you talking about teaching noobies? You seemed to refer to the former before, and now you seem to refer to the latter. I'm just curious because if you keep jumping issues you seem like dodging my argument. > When using examples like this, it is important to carefully arrange your > test case so that your opponent has his ideal configuration, while you > have an average one. Anyone who has played enough can easily identify a > true "average" run for a deck, and the ideal config is usually what your > opposition is trying to hold up as "average". Your draw was good. An average draw would not have had Enchanted Marionette. Still, these examples do not (and can not) consider seating - which is of high importance in a real example. >> I think that every deck should be build and tried. Tried over and over. >> That yields insight beyond analysis. After a while people will have a >> knack for telling what is good and what is bad in a deck, but that is >> not a science. It is primarily based on vast experience, and works best >> for the deck types one actually tried. The usefullness of analysing a >> deck abruptly stops right at the end of assessing it from a generic >> POV. There is no point IMHO in going any more specific than that. > > First: What makes you think I haven't looked at Big Tremere Walls with > permanents and 2nd Tradition in the past? I'm not talking about you - I'm talking about the person you try to instruct. He needs to build the deck and try it, because otherwise all is just speculation. Sure, after so many years of gaming you probably tried some concepts and toyed with a lot others, but that does not make you an excellent aouthority on all deck types - maybe a mediocre one at best. > Second: You're wrong, plain and simple. No, you're wrong! It's plain and simple. ;) > There's plenty of point, but only if you use meaningful test cases (as I > did). What is meaningful in taking a good draw for a deck, and then placing a virtual predator behind it that is selected especially for its ability to kill it? Please, do others a favor and urge them to try their decks instead of presenting iffy examples designed to prove that their decks are poor. I think that if you really wish to instruct, you'll do just that, because given your style the people who would listen to you instead of dismissing you outright are probably least in need of being instructed. -- Bye, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] I see. -- Bye, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, I assume the last sentence was a joke :) IMHO, being capable of switching tactics in a moment is really wonderful. And I should use lower-capacity vampires for my example, and dump Celerity. I just wanted to show that each caught !Malk is going to die from all that multiple Thefts and Bows. I should use Aisling, Hannigan, Richard Tauber, Selena and Carna. The same Magics of the Smith can fetch Laptops and weapons for several minions. Unfortunately, this deck won't be able to play Second Traditions, but it WILL block !Malks and drain their blood. Do you think that I should provide another decklist? Ector

>> I reiterate this point. Why don't you just learn to play better? >Well' maybe the reason lies in "wonderful" teachers like you? At least >I'm trying to post some arguments, not insults Well, maybe you should try insults. Then we might not be confused that you are trying to insult us. >> Have you only played this game for a few weeks or something? >Only a few months, really. Should I play a couple of years more and >return? You should definantly play for a few more years, but you don't have to leave to do so. >Can you explain to a newbie like me the fact that only one of the five >tournament-winning !Malk S&B decks in 2004 used Enchanted Marionette? >And why these decks almost never use Pulse of the Canaille? I assume >that the primary reasons are fear of Archon Investigation and table >wrath The primary reason is that they don't need to. Using Pulse and Enchanted Marrionette in S&B is as contrived as Goldfinger using the overly elaborate LASER OF DEATH on James Bond when he could have just shot him. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

salem wrote: > On 5 Dec 2004 23:44:08 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) scrawled: > > >James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<gK+LcIa3...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > > >> Channel 10 is *extremely* double-edged. The Bowl of Convergence is > >> unique. (As is Channel 10.) The more cards you pack to bring them out > >> (e.g. Magic of the Smith), the fewer cards you're including anyway - > >> with 2 Bowls and 6 Magics (the example deck you posted) would you > >> necessarily be better off than with 2 Sport Bikes, 2 Enhanced Senses, 2 > >> Precognition and 2 Spirit's Touch?[0] > > >Really? If you get one of my 8 cards, you effectively get a Bowl that > >provides +1 intercept always and +1 more if needed. If you get one of > >your 8 cards, you get either +1 permanent intercept (Bike) or +1/+2 > >one-shot intercept. IMHO, the difference is HUGE, even if you forget > >about +3 stealth from Magic. > > yes. in your deck, once you have one of your cards, the rest of them > are dead draws that just clog your hand. with james's, it's all > useful. Please, for God's sake explain what cards are you considering "dead draws". I have six Magics and six equipments. Second Bowl may be a dead draw, if you already have the first one, but that's the risk I'm going to take. You now, some people pack 4 Info Highways... > >> Additionally, as others have pointed out in recent discussions (not just > >> this one), many intercept decks will try to pack several vampires > >> capable of blocking you. Uber-good equipment is a big, BIG target for > >> block cancellation. > > >If I have Magic of the Smith, or Vast Wealth I may get my equipment > >without blockers. > > not seeing how vast wealth acheives that, but anyway... OK, Vast Wealth action can be blocked. But it's going to be blocked only if your neighbour wants to fight, as you lose nothing but the action. Your stealth-bleed predator is very unlikely to block the action, as he is going to suffer more in combat. But if you'll try to equip The Bowl normally, he will gladly spend Wake and Telepathic Misdirection and even get into torpor just to stop the ultra-powerful card. Ector

"Ector" <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message news:d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com... > Fetch cards are useful > only if they provide substantial bonuses compared to extra copies of > the fetching cards OR if you want to fetch a "combo" of several cards. > If you have no other retainers except for Raven Spies, and you aren't > playing Ahrimanes, why would you play Muricia's Call? Maybe because you want to 'recruit' twice in one turn? Jack of Both sides? That's three times. 3 permanent intercept in one turn. Not so bad. Hang on though....what if you did that with Raptors....? Think about things a bit more. Matt Green

Derek Ray wrote: > In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, > Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about: > > >Deck Name : Bowling Tremeres > >Author : Ilya Ginsburg > >Description : AUS/CEL/THA with Bowls, Channels and Charltons > > > >Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 7 max: 10 average: 8.59 > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >4x Lucas Halton 10 AUS CEL DOM THA qui prince Tremere:3 > >3x Anastaszdi Zagreb 8 AUS THA ani cel dom justicar Tremere:3 > >3x Yitzak 7 AUS CEL THA pre !Toreador:3 > >2x Javier Montoya 9 AUS THA ani cel pre prince Tremere:2 > > This crypt is way too big. Fast decks will cream you. I agree with this - just wanted to use Celerity for better demonstration. And Second Traditions require at least Princes. > >Library [90 cards] > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >Action [18] > > 8x Govern the Unaligned > > 2x Graverobbing > > 6x Magic of the Smith > > 2x Pulse of the Canaille > > Only 50% chance of getting a Magic in your first 10 cards. > > You are going to have to get lucky to even have a prayer. As someone posted, I *CAN* attempt to equip the Bowl itself, so the percentage is higher. Why should my prey attempt to block it if he knows that I have decent combat abilities, but no Eagle's Sights to block his directed actions? My S&B predator can have Persia or Kite, but it I don't see them on the table, I can try. > I removed the equipment, but if you ever paid 4 pool for a Flamethrower, > I would expect that to seal your doom instantly. Your guys are too > expensive and you have little way to get it back. I have 5 Minion Taps and 8 Governs. This may be little against S&B in bad situation, but generally it's OK. > > 3x Sudden Reversal > > 2x Zillah's Valley > > 2x Channel 10 > > Only 38% chance of getting an influence accelerator in your first 10 > cards. Talk about needing to get lucky... you're going to need a > miracle at this point. Oh, this is NOT an "anti-S&B deck". This is an example of deck that can play both intercept and bruise & bleed. > >Reaction [21] > > 5x Deflection > > Better hope you aren't relying on these; you don't have anywhere near > enough to bounce more than the occasional bleed, especially since you > won't cycle any of those combat cards. What a self-confidence! You must be World Champion, not less... > > 2x Fast Reaction > > You won't ever have more than two vampires, and you're going to tap both > of them just to steal some blood? Please, be my prey. Fast Reaction are just to demonstrate combo with Charlton. Even if I have Charlton without Bowl, my S&B predator will run out of stealth, and if he will bleed just to tap the Charlton, Fast Reaction will punish this. It would also good against rushes: I block the rush with Charlton, dodge if I can, then my vamp with the Bow plays Fast Reaction, Theft, Blur, Theft and shoots with the Bow (ideally). > > 8x Second Tradition: Domain > > 6x Wake with Evening's Freshness > > You'll be stuck having to influence Zagreb or Yitzak, just to save your > ass against a fast deck -- leaving you with only one person to play 2nd > Tradition. Who will get the Bowl? I really plan to have Lucas + Zagreb at least. Maybe I should add more Info Highways to get them? > >Ally [2] > > 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter) > > He's meaningless; +1 intercept won't stop a stealth bleed deck. I wonder, what S&B deck are you speaking about? If you mean a deck with infinite stealth and infinite bleed modifiers, then Charlton is probably meaningless. > >It's just a rough sketch, but it should clearly demonstrate the > >current state of S&B decks. Influence Lucas with Zillah's Valley or > >Info Highway, play Magic of the Smith and catch them. Play Governs as > > You'll get smeared by Elder Impersonation, Seduction, etc. I would > expect any decent stealth/bleed deck to oust this weak-ass thing JUST as > it was influencing its second vampire. I have played Kindred Spirits S&B for a two months, and my deck (just a standard KS deck you may find in TWDA) won't be capable of this. I guess you possess a supernatural knowledge about deckbuilding! Please, share it! > Your maximum intercept total on a single vampire is +6. You have only 8 > cards of transient intercept, meaning that if you don't get the Bowl or > Channel 10 (a 50% chance of doing so early, remember), you are relying > totally on your 2nd Traditions. Channel 10 can't be used on the first > action, so your maximum intercept total on THAT action is +4, something > I routinely see stealth decks overcome with just transient stealth. I don't need more intercept. More Minion Taps, maybe. How much stealth cards would you pack into your S&B deck? You may pass a couple of actions, then your vamps will be catched and drained. > You will never be able to generate more than +2 intercept on a secondary > minion. Faceless Night and Lost in Crowds beat that. Let's go back to > our above example, shall we? > > You get Channel 10, Lucas Halton with a Bowl, and Anastazdi Zagreb out, > somehow (remember that's 22 pool right there). I have Artemis with an > Enchanted Marionette, and 2-3 dem/obf guys. > > Me: Kindred Spirits bleed for 3; first action, no channel 10. > You: Lucas Wakes and blocks with the Bowl. > Me: Faceless Night, burn a blood? > You: OK, Lucas does. +2 intercept. > Me: Elder Impersonation. Not him, someone else. > You: Zagreb plays 2nd Tradition. > Me: Lost in Crowds, total 4 stealth. Tap 'em all, please. > You: Damn, my deck sucks. > Me: Eyes of Chaos, make it 5. I gain a pool. Funny, very funny example indeed. But did you notice that you played Kindred Spirits, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation, Lost in Crowds and Eyes of Chaos (five cards total), and I played only one Second Tradition? And you get your Marionette in time - how many of them do you have? And please tell me, what will you do if you DON'T have FN, EI and LinC in your hand? Moreover, in a tournament you DON'T know that your prey cannot generate more intercept. Will you still bleed with you Marionette just to be torporized and diablerized for it? Eh? > You think you'll Deflect? You might do it once, but not with only 5 in > your deck; you'll have a hand full of combat cards before long. In > fact, in the above example I would go nuts bleeding you with all the > rest of my minions, because you've just wasted two untap cards to no > effect; the odds are HUGE that you don't have a third. I have great > chances of ousting you this turn, in fact, if I drew into more bleed > mods. I really think that I could pack Telepathic Misdirections in addition to deflections. But, again, that was just a quick sketch, not pretending to be "the best deck in the world". > You know the best part? All those cards I played are found in MULTIPLES > in good stealth/bleed decks. Like, 8-of-each multiples. I can do that > every turn, easily. Your deck, on the other hand, will be ousted. No. Most decks avoid packing more than 5-6 copies of an action modifier. I want to see your super-mega-winning S&B deck even more than earlier. > Perhaps it can get lucky and play against a "10-cap calls one vote a > turn" deck as its predator, so it has time to get set up. But then it > still can't oust anyone. Most Kindred Spirits decks have average cap between 5 and 5.5. They aren't weenies. And some of their vamps even has inferior Obfuscate, so you cannot play those brilliant Elder Impersonations at superior... > >Intercept Decks Have To Pack Much Less Intercept Cards Now, And > >Therefore They Are Much Stronger. > > > >If you manage to prove me wrong I'd be happy :) > > Just did. Happy now? I'd like to look at your decklist first. Then I'll test the decks and tell you whether I'm happy or not. The testing will probably show a lot of not-so-funny examples involving "Cowardly !Malks are doing nothing, cycling for stealth modifiers" or even "poor Malkavian, drained to dust" :) Ector

>> Me: Kindred Spirits bleed for 3; first action, no channel 10. >> You: Lucas Wakes and blocks with the Bowl. You played a wake. first card. You equiped with a bowl 2nd card and 1st action >> Me: Faceless Night, burn a blood? >> You: OK, Lucas does. +2 intercept. Burn 1st blood >> Me: Elder Impersonation. Not him, someone else. >> You: Zagreb plays 2nd Tradition. 3rd card 2nd blood >> Me: Lost in Crowds, total 4 stealth. Tap 'em all, please. >> You: Damn, my deck sucks. >> Me: Eyes of Chaos, make it 5. I gain a pool. >Funny, very funny example indeed. But did you notice that you played >Kindred Spirits, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation, Lost in Crowds >and Eyes of Chaos (five cards total), and I played only one Second >Tradition? Actually you played 3 cards, spent 2 blood, and took 1 successful action to get the bowl. Either you drew the bowl, and put it into play or you Magic'd it and spent another 3rd blood. These costs add up over time. S&B just keeps pumping more and more into the pipe. And you get your Marionette in time - how many of them do you have? The same amount as you have bowls. ;) And please tell me, what will you do if you DON'T have FN, EI and LinC in your hand? This shouldn't happen over a 10 card spread (7in hand plus 3 redraws) if you have built your deck correctly. >Moreover, in a tournament you DON'T know that your prey >cannot generate more intercept. Will you still bleed with you >Marionette just to be torporized and diablerized for it? Eh? Who cares what your prey has? You can't block decks that generate 3+ stealth then make your block fail and still have a viable offense, other than AR or Smiling Jack which are prayerish at best. There is not enough room in a 90 card deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 6 Dec 2004 09:23:08 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > >Derek Ray wrote: >> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, >> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about: >> You will never be able to generate more than +2 intercept on a [ quoted text not captured ] So, lets take this just one more step up. You've used 5 turns to bring out two vamps, provided no speed (likely), and your preda has used his 5 turns to bring out 3 minions, at least. After this action, you are down to 2 pool (likely, you'd be dead but for the sake of drama..) completely tapped out, and your pred still has 2 ready minions to suck those 2 away from you. GG.

Ector wrote: > No. Two Bowls and several Magics of the Smiths would be enough. I can > even imagine a deck using some !Malks to play Sibyl's Tongues for the > Bowl. Assamites can do it quite easily, since they share OBF with > !Malks... Pack The Colonel for his cel+obf+AUS, and he would bounce > and play Tongues. Right. You can have two bowls and several Magics. So you can give one minion +2 intercept for 1 blood. Which might be contested, stolen, or destroyed. This doesn't strike me as any more effective (less effective, really, in an absolute sense) that replacing all those cards with Sports Bikes and Mr. Winthrops. At leats then, you can have multiple minions with intercept, to avoid getting completely hosed by single minion hosers. > Just look into TWDA. Current Kindred Spirits decks don't use Sibyl's > Tongue since they have no time for it, and they have no free slots. There are, like, 7 !Malk decks in the TWD archive from the time span that Sybil's Tounge was play legal. Of those, only 4 are S+B decks, and all of them are sufficiently mixed crypts such that Sybils Tongue would be unreliable, at best. Looking at the TWD archive for evidence of use of Sybil's Tongue is, apparently, not really a good idea. This being said, there is no reason you can't use Sybil's Tongue. Especially if you are concerned about Bowl of Convergence. If you think that Bowl of Convergence is going to be the death of S+B decks (which, ya know, it isn't), you can easily include your own Bowl and Sybil's Tongue to get it. And when you have the Bowl, you can still ask Sybil to get you some bleed bounce when you need it. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > I can do it, but Sybil's Tongue requires ANOTHER action to equip it. > And if I forced to include Tongues and Bowls, won't my deck become > weaker? I thought Bowl of Covergence was so powerful as to render S+B decks pointless. Given this, how could it possible make your deck weaker to include them? > Just look at any Kindred Spirits deck in TWDA and guess, can it provide > at least +2 stealth or Elder Impersonation for any action or not. And > the Bowl/Channel need +3 stealth. Then they need to change their decks so they can. That is one of the wonderful things about CCGs--the strategies keep evolving and changing, so it doesn't become stale. The Bowl might make S+B decks have to tweak their deck design some. How is that bad? The same thing happened when Archon Investigation entered the game. Decks changed and evolved. How was that bad? > Again, 15 Raven Spies makes the deck totaly focused on intercept. 6 > MotS and two Bowls not. The difference is huge. 6 MoTS and 2 Bowls aren't going to protect the deck from S+B. You could just have, like, 8 Enhanced Senses and get mostly the same effect without taking an action, without spending blood, and without making a single vampire a target. > What is reliable in VteS? Playing transient cards is even less > reliable. Wha? If I have 10 of a transient card in my deck, I'm likely to have one when I need it. That is what we like to call reliable. On the other hand, having a single piece of unique equipment (that can be blocked, stolen, contested, or destroyed) is incredibly unreliable. Using, as we have been looking at, 2 Bowls and 6 Magics is more reliable. But no more effective than just having 8 Enhanced Senses instead. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 6 Dec 2004 08:16:53 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] erm, the premise i read was 6 magics and 2 bowls. i didn't see any other equipment. in that instance, yes, the other magics aren't dead draws. i'll happily concede that. >Second Bowl may be a dead >draw, if you already have the first one, but that's the risk I'm going >to take. You now, some people pack 4 Info Highways... and some people pack 1 info highway and 3 Dreams of the Sphinx. or 2 info 2 zillahs. or maybe a tomb. why? because the extra infos will be dead draws. >OK, Vast Wealth action can be blocked. But it's going to be blocked >only if your neighbour wants to fight, as you lose nothing but the >action. umm..or blocked if your neighbour is pretty sure: a) you put vast wealth in for a reason b) the reason is probably bad news for someone. > Your stealth-bleed predator is very unlikely to block the >action, as he is going to suffer more in combat. But if you'll try to >equip The Bowl normally, he will gladly spend Wake and Telepathic >Misdirection and even get into torpor just to stop the ultra-powerful >card. or, he'd happily play with elder impersonation and let you have your silly bowl. or just bleed you out while you're tapped after taking the vast wealth action. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 16:33:00 -0500, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> scrawled: >This being said, there is no reason you can't use Sybil's Tongue. Especially >if you are concerned about Bowl of Convergence. If you think that Bowl of >Convergence is going to be the death of S+B decks (which, ya know, it >isn't), you can easily include your own Bowl and Sybil's Tongue to get it. >And when you have the Bowl, you can still ask Sybil to get you some bleed >bounce when you need it. and as a bonus if your prey uses a vast welath action to get a sport bike (as he would, instead of a silly bowl), you can block it with your bowl. but then of course you're going to suffer in combat. or you could just let him have the bike and bleed him out while he's tapped. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: >My point was that even not-so-dedicated intercept decks can regularly >block stealth-bleed now. Any bruise & bleed deck with Auspex can use >Bowls, Channels and Charltons. So, S&B decks would have to pack much >more stealth if they really wish to avoid being blocked, but having >too much stealth would ruin the deck if nobody would block it. Thus, I >doubt that !Malk S&B will remain viable. Sure, but how many do you pack? Any current deck with Auspex could be using Sport Bike, KRCG and Mr Winthrop and get to +2 pretty easily, +3 on the action you use the KRCG on. The Sport Bikes are non-unique, so you can scatter them to taste in your deck knowing they won't contest.[0] You can't contest their Sport Bikes - though you can contest the other two. I think concerns about Carlton (re: death of stealth and bleed) are *way* over-rated. He's cute, and I think he's a good ally. But he's not about to kill stealth and bleed dead. For a start, if a stealth and bleed deck is sensible about it, it can be including other flexible actions to taste - Dominate gets some fun stealing actions if you're finding allies to be a problem by way of Far Mastery. Oh, and allies can't Wake. Also, any stealth deck can sit down and think "Fuck, what do I do about all those intercept locations?" And when it finds that locations are pretty common in the sort of decks it's facing, it can head for Arson. Or Unnatural Disaster, if that floats your boat. If you pick to play them, head for the first action. Ignore Channel 10. :) Also also, stealth and bleed in many decks has a lot of tricks up its sleeves when played cunningly. Head for action modifiers. Let them tap Channel 10 and "waste" it on an action that wasn't using an action card. Then throw down an action modifier when they let it through. Action modifiers are extremely useful for such territory. [0] They have the problem of being 'unique' per vampire - but that's a lot less problematic than the Bowl, even if it is a pain. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though! EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.

In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: >Oh yes, yes, these cards exist, but who cares? Fetch cards are useful >only if they provide substantial bonuses compared to extra copies of >the fetching cards OR if you want to fetch a "combo" of several cards. For some values of "combo", that might be true. Having a highly flexible set of allies or retainers, where you draw the appropriate ones, may be another aim. e.g. if you find yourself with a combaty predator, you head for the combat oriented cards. If you find yourself with a vote predator, you might head for intercept instead. And so on. >If you have no other retainers except for Raven Spies, and you aren't >playing Ahrimanes, why would you play Muricia's Call? Selection. Also, on The Summoning, it gives you options for retainers and allies. There are plenty of good allies out there. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Look, it's just a SAMPLE deck to demonstrate new cards usage. I placed > Second Bowl to demonstrate that Anarch Troublemaker still DOESN'T kill > the Bowl strategy, as you can fetch another. And they will be unable > to play another Troublemaker :) Yes, they will be able to play another Troublemaker. Why? Because when it is used it goes to your prey. If your prey, or your grandprey, or anybody other than you has the Troublemaker, then you no longer control it - they do. Thus, you are freely able to play another one, contesting him. It's unlikely that people are going to contest him with you, so therefore you get it back. If your prey has got it, and they won't relinquish it, then great, contest the troublemaker with them for a bleed of 1 per turn. Intercept decks generally don't rake in the pool that much. They survive, they don't bloat or get out of control. Therefore, if you're doing them pool damage that they can't prevent (ie can't block or flick), it will eventually oust them more often than not. What I think would be of greatest benefit here to Ector is if he posted the deck that he uses most, and then perhaps the 'old heads' of the list can possibly help him out. --> J "Fry crack corn, and I don't care, Leela crack corn, I still don't care, Bender crack corn and he is great; Take that you stupid corn!" grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com to email me

On 6 Dec 2004 09:23:08 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru scrawled: > >Derek Ray wrote: >> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, >> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) mumbled something about: >> [snip] >> >Action [18] >> > 8x Govern the Unaligned >> > 2x Graverobbing >> > 6x Magic of the Smith >> > 2x Pulse of the Canaille >> >> Only 50% chance of getting a Magic in your first 10 cards. >> >> You are going to have to get lucky to even have a prayer. >As someone posted, I *CAN* attempt to equip the Bowl itself, so the >percentage is higher. Why should my prey attempt to block it if he >knows that I have decent combat abilities, but no Eagle's Sights to >block his directed actions? ummm....how the hell does your prey know this if you're trying to get the bowl as your first action? [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@cox-internet.com wrote: > >> Me: Kindred Spirits bleed for 3; first action, no channel 10. > >> You: Lucas Wakes and blocks with the Bowl. > > You played a wake. first card. You equiped with a bowl 2nd card and > 1st action OK, I forgot the Wake. But I don't count the Bowl as well as the Marionette. He played five cards that action, and I played only two. > Actually you played 3 cards, spent 2 blood, and took 1 successful > action to get the bowl. Either you drew the bowl, and put it into play > or you Magic'd it and spent another 3rd blood. > > These costs add up over time. S&B just keeps pumping more and more > into the pipe. Most of the time I WILL catch the !Malk and regain the blood. > And you get your Marionette in time - how many of them do > you have? > > The same amount as you have bowls. ;) And the same amount of Magic of the Smiths? :) > And please tell me, what will you do if you DON'T have FN, EI and LinC > in your hand? > > This shouldn't happen over a 10 card spread (7in hand plus 3 redraws) > if you have built your deck correctly. Most of Tournament-Winning Kindred Spirits decks have no more than 5 copies of any stealth card. If you have 5 FN, 5 EI and 5 LinC, what are your chances to get them ALL in the first 10 cards??? Less than 10%, I guess. > >Moreover, in a tournament you DON'T know that your prey > >cannot generate more intercept. Will you still bleed with you > >Marionette just to be torporized and diablerized for it? Eh? > > Who cares what your prey has? You can't block decks that generate 3+ > stealth then make your block fail and still have a viable offense, > other than AR or Smiling Jack which are prayerish at best. There is > not enough room in a 90 card deck. My general point is that Kindred Spirits deck cannot perform the demonstrated feats of stealth REGULARLY, as it can use only Elder Impersonation to avoid blocks. And my last statement you cited should mean that situation is very dangerous for !Malks anyway. What if Zagreb played Enhanced Senses and blocked? (I know there are no Enh.S in my deck, but does !Malk player know this?) What if Zagreb didn't attempt to block and just played Deflection? KS deck just wasted his KS, FN and EI to bleed my prey for 3 at +2 stealth. Yes, I know that bounce was enemy of all bleeders before the new cards, but the new cards force the bleeder to pull all his modifiers into the single action, which is very dangerous. Just put some additional Telepathic Misdirections into my sample deck, and it will squash any Kindred Spirits deck. Here's the modified example: Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 7 max: 10 average: 8.59 ------------------------------------------------------------ 4x Lucas Halton 10 AUS CEL DOM THA qui prince Tremere:3 3x Anastaszdi Zagreb 8 AUS THA ani cel dom justicar Tremere:3 3x Yitzak 7 AUS CEL THA pre !Toreador:3 2x Javier Montoya 9 AUS THA ani cel pre prince Tremere:2 Library [90 cards] ------------------------------------------------------------ Action [18] 8x Govern the Unaligned 2x Graverobbing 6x Magic of the Smith 2x Pulse of the Canaille Combat [26] 8x Blur 6x Pursuit 12x Theft of Vitae Equipment [6] 1x Ivory Bow 1x Flamethrower 2x Sniper Rifle 2x Bowl of Convergence Master [17] 1x Celerity 1x Giant's Blood 2x Information Highway 6x Minion Tap 3x Sudden Reversal 2x Zillah's Valley 2x Channel 10 Reaction [21] 4x Deflection 5x Telepathic Misdirection 8x Second Tradition: Domain 4x Wake with Evening's Freshness Ally [2] 2x Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter) ------------------------------------------------------------ I just replaced one Celerity with an additional Minion Tap, lowered number of Wakes and Deflections and dumped Fast Reactions in favor of Telepathic Misdirections. Now the deck has NINE bounce cards, and Misdirections can be used to intercept if nobody bleeds heavily. Does anybody want to say that Kindred Spirits deck has decent chances against it? And remember, this is NOT a total intercept deck, and it will eventually play bruise & bleed with Pulses and weapons. Ector

[ quoted text not captured ] Seems like a strange math. Lucas and Anastaszi are 18 pool total. Even if I had no accelerators (there are four of them) and no Minion Taps (there were five), I should have 12 pool left. And if I was seriously bled, I simply won't influence the second vampire without Governs (there are eight of them). Ector

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Ector wrote: > > > No. Two Bowls and several Magics of the Smiths would be enough. I can > > even imagine a deck using some !Malks to play Sibyl's Tongues for the > > Bowl. Assamites can do it quite easily, since they share OBF with > > !Malks... Pack The Colonel for his cel+obf+AUS, and he would bounce > > and play Tongues. > > Right. You can have two bowls and several Magics. So you can give one minion > +2 intercept for 1 blood. Which might be contested, stolen, or destroyed. > This doesn't strike me as any more effective (less effective, really, in an > absolute sense) that replacing all those cards with Sports Bikes and Mr. > Winthrops. At leats then, you can have multiple minions with intercept, to > avoid getting completely hosed by single minion hosers. I DO have multiple minions with intercept, since Charlton is a minion. And having one minion with +2 intercept is far better than two minions with +1. > > Just look into TWDA. Current Kindred Spirits decks don't use Sibyl's > > Tongue since they have no time for it, and they have no free slots. > > There are, like, 7 !Malk decks in the TWD archive from the time span that > Sybil's Tounge was play legal. Of those, only 4 are S+B decks, and all of > them are sufficiently mixed crypts such that Sybils Tongue would be > unreliable, at best. Looking at the TWD archive for evidence of use of > Sybil's Tongue is, apparently, not really a good idea. What? There are non-S&B !Malk decks? Where? > This being said, there is no reason you can't use Sybil's Tongue. Especially > if you are concerned about Bowl of Convergence. If you think that Bowl of > Convergence is going to be the death of S+B decks (which, ya know, it > isn't), you can easily include your own Bowl and Sybil's Tongue to get it. > And when you have the Bowl, you can still ask Sybil to get you some bleed > bounce when you need it. The Bowl would be useful in Kindred Spirits deck, but would you dare to block a deck with serious combat abilities? Combat decks are obviously stronger now. And YOU have no means of regaining the blood spent on the Bowl... So the primary goal of including it is contesting, which definitely makes the deck weaker. Ector

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > > > I can do it, but Sybil's Tongue requires ANOTHER action to equip it. > > And if I forced to include Tongues and Bowls, won't my deck become > > weaker? > > I thought Bowl of Covergence was so powerful as to render S+B decks > pointless. Given this, how could it possible make your deck weaker to > include them? Definitely, as I have no combat abilities and can't afford regularly blocking. Bowl and Sybil's Tongues would harm the primary strategy (bleed at stealth as fast as possible). > > Just look at any Kindred Spirits deck in TWDA and guess, can it provide > > at least +2 stealth or Elder Impersonation for any action or not. And > > the Bowl/Channel need +3 stealth. > > Then they need to change their decks so they can. That is one of the > wonderful things about CCGs--the strategies keep evolving and changing, so > it doesn't become stale. The Bowl might make S+B decks have to tweak their > deck design some. How is that bad? > > The same thing happened when Archon Investigation entered the game. Decks > changed and evolved. How was that bad? Some decks have the proper tools (i.e. cards) to change, other don't. As I posted, DOM/OBF decks will survive, as they have Seductions and Elder Impersonations. Kindred Spirits decks will die, as they have only Elder Impersonations, and nobody can pack 12 of them. > > Again, 15 Raven Spies makes the deck totaly focused on intercept. 6 > > MotS and two Bowls not. The difference is huge. > > 6 MoTS and 2 Bowls aren't going to protect the deck from S+B. You could just > have, like, 8 Enhanced Senses and get mostly the same effect without taking > an action, without spending blood, and without making a single vampire a > target. The effect would be far from the same. If I get the Bowl, I can block +2 stealth actions for the rest of the game. If I have Enh.Senses, I can block ONE +2 stealth action. Even if I manage to torporize the catched !Malk, there are more. > > What is reliable in VteS? Playing transient cards is even less > > reliable. > > Wha? If I have 10 of a transient card in my deck, I'm likely to have one > when I need it. That is what we like to call reliable. Against S&B deck you will need MUCH MORE that one. And you'll never get more than, say, three of your 10. > On the other hand, > having a single piece of unique equipment (that can be blocked, stolen, > contested, or destroyed) is incredibly unreliable. Using, as we have been > looking at, 2 Bowls and 6 Magics is more reliable. But no more effective > than just having 8 Enhanced Senses instead. But they'll have to find these cards, which requires time, and I can try to block them. Ector

salem wrote: > On 6 Dec 2004 08:16:53 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru scrawled: > > >Second Bowl may be a dead > >draw, if you already have the first one, but that's the risk I'm going > >to take. You now, some people pack 4 Info Highways... > > and some people pack 1 info highway and 3 Dreams of the Sphinx. or 2 > info 2 zillahs. or maybe a tomb. why? because the extra infos will be > dead draws. I completely agree, but some decks (even in TWDA) have four copies. The card is simple as important to them, as the Bowl is to my deck. > >OK, Vast Wealth action can be blocked. But it's going to be blocked > >only if your neighbour wants to fight, as you lose nothing but the > >action. > > umm..or blocked if your neighbour is pretty sure: > a) you put vast wealth in for a reason > b) the reason is probably bad news for someone. But in most cases I'm sure to explain to my prey that: a) I have enough combat cards to punish him if he blocks, so he's just going to make my action a Bum's Rush :) b) I will use Vast Wealth anyway on the next turn. > > Your stealth-bleed predator is very unlikely to block the > >action, as he is going to suffer more in combat. But if you'll try to > >equip The Bowl normally, he will gladly spend Wake and Telepathic > >Misdirection and even get into torpor just to stop the ultra-powerful > >card. > > or, he'd happily play with elder impersonation and let you have your > silly bowl. Maybe once. Nobody can afford playing a lot of EI. > or just bleed you out while you're tapped after taking the vast wealth > action. Please don't tell me that tapped vamp cannot block. My sample deck had 8 Second Traditions and 6 Wakes. Now I dropped two Wakes, but total number is still 12 :) Ector

James Coupe wrote: > In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector > <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: > >My point was that even not-so-dedicated intercept decks can regularly > >block stealth-bleed now. Any bruise & bleed deck with Auspex can use > >Bowls, Channels and Charltons. So, S&B decks would have to pack much > >more stealth if they really wish to avoid being blocked, but having > >too much stealth would ruin the deck if nobody would block it. Thus, I > >doubt that !Malk S&B will remain viable. > > Sure, but how many do you pack? Nearly 30 cards, including Confusions. But there are only three Elder Impersonations, as I simply have no more :) > Any current deck with Auspex could be using Sport Bike, KRCG and Mr > Winthrop and get to +2 pretty easily, +3 on the action you use the KRCG > on. The Sport Bikes are non-unique, so you can scatter them to taste in > your deck knowing they won't contest.[0] You can't contest their Sport > Bikes - though you can contest the other two. You did need a lot of time to find all these cards, and Kindred Spirits deck had a chance to kill you. It can get past a minion with +1 intercept (i.e. Bike), but not +2 intercept. Now you can fetch your Bowl quickly, and Kindred Spirits decks won't have time to kill. > I think concerns about Carlton (re: death of stealth and bleed) are > *way* over-rated. He's cute, and I think he's a good ally. But he's > not about to kill stealth and bleed dead. For a start, if a stealth and > bleed deck is sensible about it, it can be including other flexible > actions to taste - Dominate gets some fun stealing actions if you're > finding allies to be a problem by way of Far Mastery. Oh, and allies > can't Wake. Dominate is FAR better than Dementation. Kindred Spirits deck will need to provide +2 stealth for each action to get past the Charlton or get one action per turn blocked. Imagine that I have Persia and Dolphin Black, and my prey has Charlton and Zoe (probably more, but...) I have two Kindred Spirits, one Lost in Crowds, one Swallowed by the Night and one Eyes of Chaos (other cards are irrelevant now - they may be masters, Wakes, Telepathic Misdirections etc). Without Charlton I should play Kindred Spirits with Doplhin Black (no Telep. Misdir. from Zoe?), then second Kindred Spirits with Persia + Eyes of Chaos. Now I should play like this: a). Kindred Spirits with Dolphin Black (not with Persia, as Charlton is likely to block, and Persia has inferior Obfuscate). Charlton attempts to block, I play Lost in Crowds (Persia would require both my precious stealth cards). My prey refuses to block. Hourrah!!! b). Now I should decide whether to play Eyes of Chaos. If I don't, I will bleed only for two this turn, as Persia will be unable to get past Charlton. If I do, I risk to get Telepathic Misdirection from Zoe. But I will replace a card, and I may get more stealth... So I play my Eyes... Damn it, no more stealth! c). Zoe plays Telepathic Misdirection. Ouch! I've just bled my grandprey for 4 at +2 stealth, and I cannot bleed anymore... > Also, any stealth deck can sit down and think "Fuck, what do I do about > all those intercept locations?" And when it finds that locations are > pretty common in the sort of decks it's facing, it can head for Arson. > Or Unnatural Disaster, if that floats your boat. If you pick to play > them, head for the first action. Ignore Channel 10. :) Again, Kindred Spirits deck cannot limit itself to one action per turn. How many Arsons do you suggest? Remember, Arson fixes only Channel 10, not the Bowl, and not Charlton. > > Also also, stealth and bleed in many decks has a lot of tricks up its > sleeves when played cunningly. Head for action modifiers. Let them tap > Channel 10 and "waste" it on an action that wasn't using an action card. > Then throw down an action modifier when they let it through. Action > modifiers are extremely useful for such territory. Just look at the abovementioned example. One Channel 10 can be dealth with. One Charlton can be passed most of the time. But the whole package of Bowl + Channel 10 + Charlton is deadly, and ANY deck with AUS can use it. If you pack Delaying Tactics against voting decks, why can't you put these cards against all stealth decks, even if you have no ways to fetch them? Ector

J wrote: > > Look, it's just a SAMPLE deck to demonstrate new cards usage. I > placed > > Second Bowl to demonstrate that Anarch Troublemaker still DOESN'T > kill > > the Bowl strategy, as you can fetch another. And they will be unable > > to play another Troublemaker :) > > Yes, they will be able to play another Troublemaker. Why? Because > when it is used it goes to your prey. That's definitely what I mean. Technically my S&B predator will be able to play second Troublemaker, but not practically (see below). > If your prey has got it, and they won't relinquish it, then great, > contest the troublemaker with them for a bleed of 1 per turn. > Intercept decks generally don't rake in the pool that much. They > survive, they don't bloat or get out of control. Therefore, if you're > doing them pool damage that they can't prevent (ie can't block or > flick), it will eventually oust them more often than not. Ok, so you are my S&B predator. You played the first Troublemaker and killed my first Bowl. I got the second one. Now you are going to play the second Troublemaker to contest mine. Will I pay for the contest? Surely I will, since your Troublemaker is going to destroy my last Bowl. Now, is it profitable to you to contest with me? You deal me 1 pool damage per turn, but you suffer it yourself. And my Bowl is probably keeping you at bay, while NOTHING protects you from your predator. > What I think would be of greatest benefit here to Ector is if he posted > the deck that he uses most, and then perhaps the 'old heads' of the > list can possibly help him out. Well, let's take a well-known deck from TWDA, not just my humble creation. What about Ben Peal's "Cheesequake"? CRYPT [avg = 5.25] 1 x Adelaide Davis (4): obf dem aus 1 x Jeremy Talbot (4): obf dem 1 x Persia, the Beautiful Statue (5): DEM obf aus 1 x Evan Klein (5): OBF dem aus pre 1 x Tony (6): DEM AUS obf dom 1 x Dr. Douglas Netchurch (6): OBF AUS dem dom 1 x Yorik (3): dem obf 1 x Claven (4): dem obf aus 1 x Artemis (6): OBF DEM aus cel for 1 x Dolphin Black (6): OBF DEM AUS 1 x Kite (7): DEM AUS obf pre 1 x Korah (7): OBF DEM AUS ani LIBRARY 1 x Institution Hunting Ground 1 x Muddled Vampire Hunter 1 x The Barrens 1 x The Rumor Mill, Tabloid Newspaper 1 x Anarch Troublemaker 1 x Misdirection 4 x Blood Doll 1 x Life Boon 2 x Sudden Reversal 1 x Auspex 1 x Dementation 1 x Change of Target 8 x Wake with Evening's Freshness 5 x Elder Impersonation 5 x Lost in Crowds 5 x Spying Mission 5 x Cloak the Gathering 5 x Faceless Night 3 x Swallowed by the Night 2 x Domain of Evernight 18 x Kindred Spirits 6 x Confusion 8 x Telepathic Misdirection 3 x Enhanced Senses 1 x The Call

salem wrote: > On 6 Dec 2004 09:23:08 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru scrawled: > > >As someone posted, I *CAN* attempt to equip the Bowl itself, so the > >percentage is higher. Why should my prey attempt to block it if he > >knows that I have decent combat abilities, but no Eagle's Sights to > >block his directed actions? > > ummm....how the hell does your prey know this if you're trying to get > the bowl as your first action? I can tell him :) Moreover, I can explain that I utterly need the Bowl to survive under Kindred Spirits deck, and I'm going to die if he blocks. People hate S&B decks, really. Ector

In message <1102415073....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Ec...@mail.ru mumbled something about: > >James Coupe wrote: >> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector >> <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: >> >My point was that even not-so-dedicated intercept decks can >regularly >> >block stealth-bleed now. Any bruise & bleed deck with Auspex can use >> >Bowls, Channels and Charltons. So, S&B decks would have to pack much >> >more stealth if they really wish to avoid being blocked, but having >> >too much stealth would ruin the deck if nobody would block it. Thus, >I >> >doubt that !Malk S&B will remain viable. >> >> Sure, but how many do you pack? > >Nearly 30 cards, including Confusions. But there are only three Elder >Impersonations, as I simply have no more :) So wait, you mean you're talking out your ass because you HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE how stealth bleed works? Is that it? You've NEVER PROPERLY BUILT a stealth bleed deck? What? Run that by again? You have never built a deck with 8+ Elder Imp and 8+ Faceless Night. You do not realize how strong such a deck is. SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. omfg. I can't believe I just read this, and you have the nerve to talk as though you KNOW something? Get your pennies together, trade for some EIs, and then come back and talk to us, OK? Jesus Christ, what a fucking fool. -- Derek a host is a host from coast to coast and no one will talk to a host that's close unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 08:37:50 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Nearly 30 cards, including Confusions. But there are only three Elder >> Impersonations, as I simply have no more :) [Translating: Fuckyounglish to English] Attempting to obtain some more Elder Impersonation cards might indeed be a good idea. Aside of metagame issues, having block denial in your stealth bleed deck can greatly enhance its performance. If you have no ready way to get your hands on specific cards, it might be a good idea to proxy them once in a while during casual play, just to get the feel for them. If you indeed find that a certain card is well worth a slot in your deck, you will probably be inclined to go into greater length for its obtention. -- Bye, Daneel

Derek Ray wrote: > In message <1102415073....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, > Ec...@mail.ru mumbled something about: > > So wait, you mean you're talking out your ass because you HAVE > ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE how stealth bleed works? Is that it? You've NEVER > PROPERLY BUILT a stealth bleed deck? What? Run that by again? > > You have never built a deck with 8+ Elder Imp and 8+ Faceless Night. > You do not realize how strong such a deck is. > > SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. > > omfg. I can't believe I just read this, and you have the nerve to talk > as though you KNOW something? Get your pennies together, trade for some > EIs, and then come back and talk to us, OK? Jesus Christ, what a > fucking fool. Oh well, I finally decided to ignore you. Previously I thought that I really can learn something from you, but I'm not going to learn English insults. Just look at TWDA and see yourself that there are NO decks with more than FIVE Elder Impersonations... You will be the first creator of such deck. Ector

Derek Ray wrote: > In message <1102415073....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, > Ec...@mail.ru mumbled something about: > > So wait, you mean you're talking out your ass because you HAVE > ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE how stealth bleed works? Is that it? You've NEVER > PROPERLY BUILT a stealth bleed deck? What? Run that by again? > > You have never built a deck with 8+ Elder Imp and 8+ Faceless Night. > You do not realize how strong such a deck is. > > SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. > > omfg. I can't believe I just read this, and you have the nerve to talk > as though you KNOW something? Get your pennies together, trade for some > EIs, and then come back and talk to us, OK? Jesus Christ, what a > fucking fool. [ quoted text not captured ]

<<SNIP>> > But you're right, !Malks suffer most from the Charlton. Moreover, they > cannot diablerize safely even with a vote lock now. > > Are you actually saying that the !Malks suffer more from Charlton than, for example, the Toreadors? Clans unable to generate stealth in an easy way (yeah, i know Carnivale, Alacrity and stuff exist for the Toreadors) has a much larger problem with a +1 intercept minion than your !Malks. I really don't know why you write the !Malk newsletter. You spend most of the time arguing that the !Malks are unable to do anything but stealth bleed which is 'hosed', as you say, by two new cards granting intercept. I agree that the bowl is strong, but your job as a newsletter writer should be to find counter strategies when new cards and/or strategies show up. Be creative! The bowl: Block their equip actions, if they can't get the bowl they can't use it. Burn the bowl (e.g. using Anarch troublemaker) Contest the bowl Channel X: Use sudden reversal to counter it Burn it (e.g. Arson, unnatural disaster) Finally your clan has auspex as a clan discipline - use the bowl and Channel X to make your own wall deck, use the four !Malks with cel (three of them have AUS the fourth have aus), and guns (Magnums, Sniper Rifles - whatever). Shoot people, gaining additional strikes and avoiding close range hitback. Using cards like Random Patterns (the +1/-1 intercept thing) and Deny (+1 stealth/press) gives you an option to 'stealth' some bleeds and *still* retain block and combat abilities. A card like Quicken sight would also gives you intercept AND maneuvers. A card like Blessing of Chaos would be extremely good in such a deck imagine the poor toreadors or ventrues that are unable to use precense S:CE vs Hannibal with a gun. Who knows? It might even work. Just try to adapt to the new cards. Arguing that a unique piece of equipment, and a unique location, makes an entire clan unplayable is absurd. <<SNIP>>

Daneel wrote: > On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 08:37:50 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >> Nearly 30 cards, including Confusions. But there are only three Elder > >> Impersonations, as I simply have no more :) > > [Translating: Fuckyounglish to English] Unfortunately, English isn't my native language. My apologies for any mistakes you found. > Attempting to obtain some more Elder Impersonation cards might indeed > be a good idea. Please, don't think that I don't know about their usefulness. I'll grab them as soon as I find them, but I don't want to purchase a Malkavian starter for two Elder Impersonations. Our playgroup has limited number of cards, but this should change soon. Nevertheless, we often play with proxy cards (definitely not during the tournaments, though). So please don't think that my "whining" comes from the lack of cards. Ector

"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:31j8tqF...@individual.net... > Daneel wrote: > > > Yeah, well, kind of like Martin Weinmayer's Tremere Wall deck that I think > > even won a Hungarian tournament or Stefan Ferenci's weenie AUS wall that > > won EC2003. The latter had some minor combat though, like a dodge or two > > and a Concealed or two. You not knowing about it does not mean it's not > > feasible. ;) > > I wouldn't count the latter as a wall deck. It may block every bit as > well as a wall deck, but it can swarm bleed when it chooses to. > Hhhmmm... I can be a wall *and* I can be a swarm bleed deck. Nope, > nothing excessively good to see here, move along. Wouldn't that just make it an example of a good wall deck, as opposed to a poorly-made (and played) Tzimisce "everyone goes to torpor and the table times out" decks? Dorrinal Blackmantle Chronicler of Clan Tremere Just give up, already: the future is here and it's dom/AUS/THA

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > Oh well, I finally decided to ignore you. Previously I thought that I > really can learn something from you, but I'm not going to learn English > insults. I was halfway through typing out virtually the same response (ok, maybe at one-half vitriol), when I saw that Derek had already caught it. The two statements you've made taken together, "no one can play 12 EI" and "I only use 3 because that's all I own" are, frankly, about as ignorant-looking as it is possible to get. Your admission that you've only been playing the game for a few months only makes it look worse. I really, really advise you to assert less and lurk more. Ask questions if you have to, post the decks that you are using, etc. But for your own credibility, stop making these extreme assertions. > Just look at TWDA and see yourself that there are NO decks with more > than FIVE Elder Impersonations... You will be the first creator of such > deck. And stop thinking that the TWDA is where you can go to "prove" your point. I am personally amazed that the number of block fails effects in the Kindred Spirits decks are so low; it would seem to me that the blood cost is negligible due to practically nothing else in the combo costing blood and the speed of the strategy, and so if I were inclined to play this kind of deck (which I vehemently am not) I would include plenty. Playing with many is *not* a bad idea, which is not to say that it is also the only *good* idea. It also may be that the builders of those decks understood their own tournament metagames and realized that there just isn't going to be that much intercept floating around, and so chose an appropriate amount of stealth to include in their decks. If *that* is so, it flies right in the face of your worries about intercept decks becoming too good for KS bleed to handle, ie very few people will even choose the strategy. -- David Cherryholmes

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > Please, don't think that I don't know about their usefulness. I'll grab > them as soon as I find them, but I don't want to purchase a Malkavian > starter for two Elder Impersonations. Our playgroup has limited number > of cards, but this should change soon. > Nevertheless, we often play with proxy cards (definitely not during the > tournaments, though). So please don't think that my "whining" comes > from the lack of cards. Well, then stop letting on that you don't play more of a card in a deck because you don't own it. Which is what you said. Are you deliberately trying to waste our time by running around in circles? -- David Cherryholmes

Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: > Wouldn't that just make it an example of a good wall deck, as opposed to a > poorly-made (and played) Tzimisce "everyone goes to torpor and the table > times out" decks? But if you have a wall that could, for the sake of argument, also bleed for 10 unblockably and unbouncably, what semantic meaning is there in insisting that it is a "wall" deck? The word wall connotes certain things, most principally a lack of forward momentum. If the deck has significant momentum, I'd say wall is not an appropriate term. And personally, I don't think Tzimisce decks work like that anymore. In the last infernal storyline I played in, I got the same bleedzooka twice as a predator (he chose me as his prey in the finals since it worked out so well for him in a previous round) and it was Fiendish Tongue based. -- David Cherryholmes

"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:31lur8F...@individual.net... > Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: > > > Wouldn't that just make it an example of a good wall deck, as opposed to a > > poorly-made (and played) Tzimisce "everyone goes to torpor and the table > > times out" decks? > > But if you have a wall that could, for the sake of argument, also bleed > for 10 unblockably and unbouncably, what semantic meaning is there in > insisting that it is a "wall" deck? The word wall connotes certain > things, most principally a lack of forward momentum. If the deck has > significant momentum, I'd say wall is not an appropriate term. Ousting mechanism does not change the fact that the deck is made primarily to defend pool with intercept, bounce, and multiple expendable vampires. Wall. Newsgroup good for arguing relatively meaningless semantics :) > And personally, I don't think Tzimisce decks work like that anymore. In > the last infernal storyline I played in, I got the same bleedzooka twice > as a predator (he chose me as his prey in the finals since it worked out > so well for him in a previous round) and it was Fiendish Tongue based. You're right, Tzimisce get to put more offense into the deck with Fiendish Tongue but I still see players packing the rest of the deck with "block! block! block! kill! kill! kill!" That quote is an official V:tES strategy term. [ quoted text not captured ]

Martin wrote: > <<SNIP>> > > > But you're right, !Malks suffer most from the Charlton. Moreover, they > > cannot diablerize safely even with a vote lock now. > > > > > > Are you actually saying that the !Malks suffer more from Charlton than, > for example, the Toreadors? Clans unable to generate stealth in an easy > way (yeah, i know Carnivale, Alacrity and stuff exist for the Toreadors) > has a much larger problem with a +1 intercept minion than your !Malks. I said that because !Malks have virtually no ways to get rid of Charlton. Toreador with a Magnum will shot him with a single Pursuit. > I really don't know why you write the !Malk newsletter. You spend most > of the time arguing that the !Malks are unable to do anything but > stealth bleed which is 'hosed', as you say, by two new cards granting > intercept. I know the !Malks better than other clans, and I really like most of the vampires and such clan cards as Sybil's Tongue. Surely, I'd like my clan to be more popular and more versatile, so I'm acting as "anti-Malkavian advocate". LSJ may read this, and !Malks may get so much needed new cards in the future expansions. [ quoted text not captured ] Thanks a lot for your help. I will think about it, though I currently see little reason to build a weak AUS/CEL deck with !Malks when I can build a good AUS/CEL deck with Toreadors. Blessing of Chaos may be a reason, and Sybil's Tongue too. Really need to think about it. > > Just try to adapt to the new cards. Arguing that a unique piece of > equipment, and a unique location, makes an entire clan unplayable is absurd. You should be right. But you should see that Kindred Spirits deck that was !Malkavian "hallmark" for years, is seriously hosed now. I'll try to explore undirected actions, as Forgotten Labyrinth provides enough stealth to beat the new cards. Again, thanks for your help and attitude. Ector

<Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message news:1102432048.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > LSJ may read this, Correct. :-) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

David Cherryholmes wrote: > Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > I was halfway through typing out virtually the same response (ok, maybe > at one-half vitriol), when I saw that Derek had already caught it. The > two statements you've made taken together, "no one can play 12 EI" and > "I only use 3 because that's all I own" are, frankly, about as > ignorant-looking as it is possible to get. Your admission that you've > only been playing the game for a few months only makes it look worse. I > really, really advise you to assert less and lurk more. Ask questions > if you have to, post the decks that you are using, etc. But for your > own credibility, stop making these extreme assertions. The fact that I *have* only three Elder Impersonations makes you count me a silly boy? That's really strange. I can test decks with any number of any cards, thus my opinion about Kindred Spirits decks has nothing common with my card collection. Talking about your advice to "lurk more", I can say that I really hate to lurk, especially when my clan is suffering :) [ quoted text not captured ] Let's presume that a good tournament deck should work in different circumstances. Speaking about Kindred Spirits deck, it should work when your prey has intercept AND when your prey doesn't have it. Right? Can I al least try to explain the low number of Elder Impersonations? If your prey plays intercept, EI is amazing - just force him to play 2-3 intercept cards, then play it. But if your prey refuses to block you (a common tactic used by non-intercept decks against stealth decks), Elder Impersonation is awful. You cannot play it at all. Some stealth modifiers can be played even in this situation (Spying Mission, Swallowed by the Night), but not EI. If you really put 8 EIs into the deck, they are going to clog in your hand. Most Kindred Spirits deck are playing vampires with inferior Obfuscate. Persia and Uncle George are very popular. Obviously, for such vamps Elder Impersonation is just a "bad stealth card", as it costs a blood. BTW, the cost is NOT negligible even for vamps with superior Obfuscate - I won countless games with several vamps having 1 blood each. Moreover, Kindred Spirits decks are trying to minimize the chances of getting double stealth modifiers. Uncle George with inferior Obfuscate still can play 4-5 different stealth modifiers in a row, but not in a deck with 8 EIs and 8 FNs. I really don't know whether the deck with 8 EI and 8 FN is going to be playable or not. But overall the Kindred Spirits decks are going to be much weaker, as the decks can be hosed by a light intercept module now. Ector

Where do you get "the bowl gets 2 intercept" ? I don't see any 'As Above' clause for AUS. So what I see is if you have aus => +1 intercept like a free but unique sportbike. If you have AUS, you can burn a(1) blood for +1 intercept (worse then sport bike, but stackable with sportbike) The "additional" intercept refers to the intercept you already played or have for that action, not the +1 from the aus, right ? Or am I completely mistaken ? Ruben.

"Rubbe" <ru...@pandora.Be> wrote in message news:1102437397....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Disciplines come in levels. [aus] is the first level of Auspex, often referred to as basic or normal. [AUS] is the second level of Auspex, referred to as the superior level. Any vampire with 2 levels of Auspex has 1 level of Auspex. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:19:09 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message > news:1102432048.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... >> LSJ may read this, > > Correct. :-) Nice weather... *ahem* *cough* Ban *cough* PTO *cough-cough* ;) -- Bye, Daneel

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:44:00 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > "Rubbe" <ru...@pandora.Be> wrote in message > news:1102437397....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... >> Where do you get "the bowl gets 2 intercept" ? >> >> I don't see any 'As Above' clause for AUS. So what I see is if you have >> aus => +1 intercept like a free but unique sportbike. >> If you have AUS, you can burn a(1) blood for +1 intercept (worse then >> sport bike, but stackable with sportbike) >> The "additional" intercept refers to the intercept you already played >> or have for that action, not the +1 from the aus, right ? >> Or am I completely mistaken ? > > Disciplines come in levels. > [aus] is the first level of Auspex, often referred to as basic or normal. > [AUS] is the second level of Auspex, referred to as the superior level. > > Any vampire with 2 levels of Auspex has 1 level of Auspex. Unless, of course, he or she has at least inferior Auspex... -- Bye, Daneel

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:0oh7r019pv5gv2dvv...@4ax.com... > > Tremere intercept decks have one key problem; getting the hell beaten > out of them by something that fights better than they do. They aren't > superstrong combat; they are risking a lot every time they go into a > fight. Those decks aren't as powerful as you think, and while you can > surely build a Tremere intercept deck that can trash a stealth/bleeder, > that same deck also has extreme difficulty winning. > Ector, this is true! Look out for the occasional Anarch Revolt or Conditioning, that is about it for ousting power. As for combat it is usually Sniper Rifle, Theft of Vitae, or Burst of Sunlight with Rotschreck. You can easily sit at a game in which each other deck has a combat that trumps your own. Tremere intercept is my signature deck and I have lost many times to Kindred Spirits bleed - work around it. > Couple that with the Kiss of Ra problem (still alive and well on the > tournament scene due to the viability of the Tzimisce) the Tremere also > face, and you start to realize that building a deck that can both win > and beat up stealth bleed is a very, very difficult task. > Eugenio Estevez to the rescue! The rest of the Tremere community must embrace this all-purpose midcap. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opsinjtk...@news.chello.hu... > On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 11:44:00 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > Any vampire with 2 levels of Auspex has 1 level of Auspex. > > Unless, of course, he or she has at least inferior Auspex... ? Incorrect. A vampire with at least inferior Auspex has (at least) 1 level of Auspex. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <1102418941.7...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Ec...@mail.ru writes: >I can tell him :) Moreover, I can explain that I utterly need the Bowl >to survive under Kindred Spirits deck, and I'm going to die if he >blocks. People hate S&B decks, really. Well, clearly your group hates S&B. And I'll readily admit other groups do too. But if you're going to dictate the death of stealth-bleed based on your play-group letting you bring out the Bowl because they hate stealth- bleed, well, you're on very shaky ground. Good players don't let naive hatred get in the way. They play well, instead. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though! EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.

In message <1102415073....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Ec...@mail.ru writes: > >James Coupe wrote: >> In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector >> <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: >> >My point was that even not-so-dedicated intercept decks can >regularly >> >block stealth-bleed now. Any bruise & bleed deck with Auspex can use >> >Bowls, Channels and Charltons. So, S&B decks would have to pack much >> >more stealth if they really wish to avoid being blocked, but having >> >too much stealth would ruin the deck if nobody would block it. Thus, >I >> >doubt that !Malk S&B will remain viable. >> >> Sure, but how many do you pack? >Nearly 30 cards, including Confusions. But there are only three Elder >Impersonations, as I simply have no more :) Erm, I'm asking how many copies of the killer intercept cards did the intercept deck pack? <Sport Bike, KRCG and Mr Winthrop> >You did need a lot of time to find all these cards, and Kindred Spirits >deck had a chance to kill you. It can get past a minion with +1 >intercept (i.e. Bike), but not +2 intercept. Time is less of an issue to many intercept decks. Between WwEF, Forced Awakening and Read the Winds (picking random cards), you can easily turn the actions you take into reactions also. Sure, you need to take an action - but in many ways, it's not much different to playing Freak Drive. Yeah, you don't get to take an action - but your intercept deck can plan for that in the first place. Also, Winthrop and Bike = +2 intercept. Which if you're getting out Charlton and the Bowl is the same number of actions and you get +2 perma-intercept, rather than having to spend blood and a potentially weak ally. >Now you can fetch your >Bowl quickly, and Kindred Spirits decks won't have time to kill. You can fetch plenty of cards quickly - it just depends on your deck construction. That, or you pack enough to mean that fetching isn't needed - which is much easier with a non-unique like Sport Bike. >> I think concerns about Carlton (re: death of stealth and bleed) are >> *way* over-rated. He's cute, and I think he's a good ally. But he's >> not about to kill stealth and bleed dead. For a start, if a stealth >and >> bleed deck is sensible about it, it can be including other flexible >> actions to taste - Dominate gets some fun stealing actions if you're >> finding allies to be a problem by way of Far Mastery. Oh, and allies >> can't Wake. >Dominate is FAR better than Dementation. That may be - in fact, I tend to agree. However, Dementation is not the only form of stealth and bleed. Hence, "stealth and bleed is dead" based only on what the !Malks can do is to miss the rest of life's rich pageant. >Kindred Spirits deck will need >to provide +2 stealth for each action to get past the Charlton I keep wondering if Misdirection is worth playing these days. A tapped ally is a tapped ally, after all. Pity that Anarch Troublemaker specifies vampire. >or get >one action per turn blocked. Well, sure. But if a dedicated stealth-bleed deck is having trouble amassing +2 stealth then it either jammed really stupidly on cards (and hey, that can happen) or it probably wasn't a dedicated stealth-bleed deck. If it was a diverse deck utilising offence and defence in a variety of forms, with a nice line in some stealth and some bleed, it will probably have other tricks up its sleeve. Combat offence, for instance, can come in the form of a few guns. Now, he can Dodge pretty well - but I keep wondering about the utility of Caseless Rounds, too, for the casual combat defence angle. Calculate being able to afford two blood and suddenly find yourself on the end of four. Restructure gives you a nice option, if you suddenly find that allies rock your world. >Without Charlton I should play Kindred Spirits with Doplhin Black (no >Telep. Misdir. from Zoe?), then second Kindred Spirits with Persia + >Eyes of Chaos. Now I should play like this: Give yourself more options, perhaps? >c). Zoe plays Telepathic Misdirection. Ouch! I've just bled my >grandprey for 4 at +2 stealth, and I cannot bleed anymore... This is why Spying Mission is considered a good and useful card. >Just look at the abovementioned example. One Channel 10 can be dealth >with. One Charlton can be passed most of the time. One Charlton is no different to a vampire with a Sport Bike. I don't know why you're getting your knickers in a twist about this. >But the whole >package of Bowl + Channel 10 + Charlton is deadly, and ANY deck with >AUS can use it. So can you. Kindred Spirits makes bloating a possibility. Bloating makes "wasting" pool on such things a possibility. You're going to have to play well to get past a line-up like that - but then you only show us your vampires, not your permanents. Where's your Enchanted Marionette? Or your Obfuscate master cards? If you're finding that your vampires are hard to use, use better ones. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <1102411306.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Ec...@mail.ru writes: >Peter D Bakija wrote: >> Ec...@mail.ru wrote: >> > What is reliable in VteS? Playing transient cards is even less >> > reliable. >> >> Wha? If I have 10 of a transient card in my deck, I'm likely to have >>one when I need it. That is what we like to call reliable. >Against S&B deck you will need MUCH MORE that one. And you'll never get >more than, say, three of your 10. If you only saw three, that would be pretty poor play. 3 out of 10 in a 90 card deck is 27 cards. Lots of decks can play a lot more than 27 cards in a relatively short space of time. Between masters, equipment, combat cards, wakes, transient intercept and so on, an intercept/combat deck is often in a good place to cycle into all sorts of random stuff. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > X_Ze...@cox-internet.com wrote: > > >> Me: Kindred Spirits bleed for 3; first action, no channel 10. > > >> You: Lucas Wakes and blocks with the Bowl. > > > > You played a wake. first card. You equiped with a bowl 2nd card and > > 1st action > OK, I forgot the Wake. But I don't count the Bowl as well as the > Marionette. He played five cards that action, and I played only two. How can you not count the bowl? It was played in order to set up this up. Also Marionette was required as well. So 6 cards versus 3 cards. > > > Actually you played 3 cards, spent 2 blood, and took 1 successful > > action to get the bowl. Either you drew the bowl, and put it into > play > > or you Magic'd it and spent another 3rd blood. > > > > These costs add up over time. S&B just keeps pumping more and more > > into the pipe. > Most of the time I WILL catch the !Malk and regain the blood. How? Card for card in combat a Tremere deck's options are inferior to a defenseless Malk, never mind if they are actually playing anti-combat or hit back. > > And you get your Marionette in time - how many of them do > > you have? > > > > The same amount as you have bowls. ;) > And the same amount of Magic of the Smiths? :) And the same amount of Sybil's Tongues? :) :) Ha, Ha, I out smiley-faced you! > > And please tell me, what will you do if you DON'T have FN, EI and > LinC > > in your hand? > > > > This shouldn't happen over a 10 card spread (7in hand plus 3 redraws) > > if you have built your deck correctly. > Most of Tournament-Winning Kindred Spirits decks have no more than 5 > copies of any stealth card. If you have 5 FN, 5 EI and 5 LinC, what are > your chances to get them ALL in the first 10 cards??? Less than 10%, I > guess. Any yet they won the tournament. Your arguement is looking pretty weak here. Let me know when the fact sinks in that they won the tournament..... > My general point is that Kindred Spirits deck cannot perform the > demonstrated feats of stealth REGULARLY, as it can use only Elder > Impersonation to avoid blocks. And yet, perhaps on Bizarro World this is how people argue, doesn't it seem just a little paradoxical that you are using anti-Malk decks in the Tournament Winning archives to try to justify how anti-Malk decks can't win? Getting your nose bloodied is how you learn how to duck. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > Talking about your advice to "lurk more", I can say that I really hate > to lurk, especially when my clan is suffering :) See, I just don't think we mean the same thing when we say "suffering". > Let's presume that a good tournament deck should work in different > circumstances. So what do you mean by "work"? It shouldn't mean as much as guaranteeing you win that game, because no deck does that. But I would agree working should at least mean you have a good shot at winning that game, and that this would be supported by a good number of game wins. > Speaking about Kindred Spirits deck, it should work when > your prey has intercept AND when your prey doesn't have it. Right? It has to not fall over and die horribly, aka work, yes. > Can > I al least try to explain the low number of Elder Impersonations? > If your prey plays intercept, EI is amazing - just force him to play > 2-3 intercept cards, then play it. But if your prey refuses to block > you (a common tactic used by non-intercept decks against stealth > decks), Elder Impersonation is awful. You cannot play it at all. Some > stealth modifiers can be played even in this situation (Spying Mission, > Swallowed by the Night), but not EI. If you really put 8 EIs into the > deck, they are going to clog in your hand. I hate tit-for-tat, I really do, but I'm going to go ahead and invoke Dreams, specifically because it's these types of decks that can afford to blow gratuitous numbers of master slots on multiples of DI and Dreams, because they've got so much covered by Kindred Spirits bleeding. And, everyone knows that some players might try to jam you by not blocking, which is why you need lots of Dreams to ensure discards. And if not Dreams, then other hand tuners. So that's to not getting to play it. Then there's playing at inferior for good old +1 stealth. There should be lots more opportunities where it'd be useful for that. You're killing people quickly, sooner or later the don't-block crowd is going to hit block-or-die, and then all the stealth flows freely. > Most Kindred Spirits deck are playing vampires with inferior Obfuscate. Really? I'll take your word for it, because I'm not looking it up. I'm no tournament winning stealth bleed player, but it seems to me that I could and would make room for some obfuscate and dementation skill cards; skill cards are generally considered bad, but the decks have master space to spare, live by speed, and each one played is a huge boost. > Persia and Uncle George are very popular. Obviously, for such vamps > Elder Impersonation is just a "bad stealth card", as it costs a blood. What else are they using their blood for? You are bouncing, right? And gaining pool with your uberaction. You don't *need* Blood Dolls. I mean, you might need them by midgame or later so you can keep your guys moving, but you can draw into a few of them by then. Elder is the only stealth card you play that does cost blood, which is sustainable. > BTW, the cost is NOT negligible even for vamps with superior Obfuscate > - I won countless games with several vamps having 1 blood each. I do think the cost is negligible for the reasons I gave, and I don't see what your second sentence has to do with your first. > Moreover, Kindred Spirits decks are trying to minimize the chances of > getting double stealth modifiers. Uncle George with inferior Obfuscate > still can play 4-5 different stealth modifiers in a row, but not in a > deck with 8 EIs and 8 FNs. I didn't assume the stealth cards stopped at 16. I would pick a few and focus heavily on them, and then run a diverse spread along side them. > I really don't know whether the deck with 8 EI and 8 FN is going to be > playable or not. Are you stopping at 16 stealth cards or not? I'm not. > But overall the Kindred Spirits decks are going to be > much weaker, as the decks can be hosed by a light intercept module now. It's hardly hosed. We've beaten our head against that wall enough, but again.... how about considering how fast you are inflicting pool damage on them and the number of cards they'll get to see and the odds of drawing into them as stealth bleed is raining down on their head from turn 2? -- David Cherryholmes

On 7 Dec 2004 06:07:12 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru wrote: >Just look at TWDA This is a flawed speculation. In every month there are more than 80 tournaments world wide. Fewer than 10 tournament winning decks make it into the archive in any given month. Looking to the TWDA for proof of anything global is flawed. No, there isn't any better source, but flawed assumptions from flawed data are without value regardless of whether or not better data is available. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com/decks/twd.htm

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > I DO have multiple minions with intercept, since Charlton is a minion. > And having one minion with +2 intercept is far better than two minions > with +1. Yeah, see, I;m not talking about the deck you proposed as somehow death to S+B decks. I'm talking about the game in general. And while in some instances, one minion with +2 intercept is better that two with +1 each, in other instances, the converse is true. > What? There are non-S&B !Malk decks? Where? I think 3 of the last 7 winning decks under the !Malk section are other than S+B. Go look. One is a protean intercept deck. One is a black hand Thugee deck. One is something else. > The Bowl would be useful in Kindred Spirits deck, but would you dare to > block a deck with serious combat abilities? Irrelevant. Having +2 intercept is always goingto be good. Having access to the Bowl to be able to contest it if it is as deadly to S+B as you seem to think it is is always going to be good, especially as if it isn't used by your prey, you get to use it to block stuff. > Combat decks are obviously stronger now. Dude. I know combat decks. That KR and DU are banned means that combat decks are slightly more worth playing. On the other hand, the Bowl and Channel X aren't going to help combat decks much at all. > And YOU have no means of regaining the blood spent on the > Bowl... So the primary goal of including it is contesting, which > definitely makes the deck weaker. What? Why can't you regain the blood spent? You have Blood Dolls and Kindred Spirits. Do the math. Or a Hunting Ground. Either works fine. The primary goal of having the Bowl is permanent +2 intercept potental. Which is certainly handy. If you don't want to block combat heavy decks, don't block them--they rarely do anything you want to block anyway. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > Definitely, as I have no combat abilities and can't afford regularly > blocking. Bowl and Sybil's Tongues would harm the primary strategy > (bleed at stealth as fast as possible). A) We have already established that you can easily include Swallowed, Gemini's Mirror, and Behind You for combat defense. +2 intercept lets you block a lot of stuff other than combat decks that can kill you (especially as you rarely need +2 intercept to stop decks that can reliably kill you--most of their actions are at zero stealth). Having permanent +2 intercept means you can block *non* combat decks, and all you have to do against them is manuver to long range or dodge, generally speaking. Remember--in the rest of the world, it is unlikely that you'll be sittinf between two Rush decks every game. > Some decks have the proper tools (i.e. cards) to change, other don't. Decks that can bleed a lot at stealth while gaining pool at the same time, bouncing bleeds, and having reliable, light combat defense are the decks that have the proper tools to change. > As I posted, DOM/OBF decks will survive, as they have Seductions and > Elder Impersonations. Kindred Spirits decks will die, as they have only > Elder Impersonations, and nobody can pack 12 of them. Why not? And heck, you don't even need to. > The effect would be far from the same. If I get the Bowl, I can block > +2 stealth actions for the rest of the game. If I have Enh.Senses, I > can block ONE +2 stealth action. Even if I manage to torporize the > catched !Malk, there are more. 8 Enhanced Senses compared to 2 Bowls and 6 Magics? Strikesme as a totally even trade off, considering everything else the same. Except the Enhanceds don't cost blood and other vampires can use them other than the single with the Bowl. > Against S&B deck you will need MUCH MORE that one. And you'll never get > more than, say, three of your 10. Of course you will. Again, having 8 Enhanced Senses is as good as having 2 Bowl and 6 Magics. In many ways better. And relying only on the +2 intercept from the Bowl as your defense against S+B will fail. Regularly. +2 intercept does not stop a deck with Lost in Crowds, other transient intercept, and Confusion (+1 bleed/+1 stealth?) [ quoted text not captured ]

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > I know the !Malks better than other clans, and I really like most of > the vampires and such clan cards as Sybil's Tongue. 'Cause it is good. Yet you maintain that you can't use them, as they hinder your decks. > Surely, I'd like my > clan to be more popular and more versatile, so I'm acting as > "anti-Malkavian advocate". They are already incredibly popular and versitile. They are popular 'cause they are the second most effective S+B clan in the game (only second due to fewer vampires than the regular Malks). S+B has always been and always will be a first tier strategy, Archon Investigation, Bowl of Convergence, and Channel X be dammned. They are versitile 'cause they have: -Obfuscate: Allows for significant offensive power. -Auspex: Allows for significant defensive power. -Dementation: Allows for significant bleeding power (the number 1 way to win games) as well as combat abilities, more stealth, more intercept, combat defense (Voice of Madness), and numerous other wacky abilities. It is good to act as their advocate. But don't be, like, thinking that that they aren't already good. > LSJ may read this, and !Malks may get so > much needed new cards in the future expansions. They don't have any much needed cards. The cards they need are already there. [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@cox-internet.com wrote: > Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > > X_Ze...@cox-internet.com wrote: > > > >> Me: Kindred Spirits bleed for 3; first action, no channel 10. > > > >> You: Lucas Wakes and blocks with the Bowl. > > > > > > You played a wake. first card. You equiped with a bowl 2nd card > and > > > 1st action > > OK, I forgot the Wake. But I don't count the Bowl as well as the > > Marionette. He played five cards that action, and I played only two. > > How can you not count the bowl? It was played in order to set up this > up. Also Marionette was required as well. > > So 6 cards versus 3 cards. I'm actually trying to count the cards that are going to be played regularly on each turn, if not on each action. I played the Bowl once, and he played his Marionette once. Now the setup is finished, and the war between stealth and intercept begins. Stealth player won the first battle, but he spent five cards to my two cards, so he is likely to be exhausted and cycle for reinforcements. > > > > > Actually you played 3 cards, spent 2 blood, and took 1 successful > > > action to get the bowl. Either you drew the bowl, and put it into > > play > > > or you Magic'd it and spent another 3rd blood. > > > > > > These costs add up over time. S&B just keeps pumping more and more > > > into the pipe. > > Most of the time I WILL catch the !Malk and regain the blood. > > How? Card for card in combat a Tremere deck's options are inferior to > a defenseless Malk, never mind if they are actually playing > anti-combat or hit back. I really didn't understand this... What do you mean? > > > And you get your Marionette in time - how many of them do > > > you have? > > > > > > The same amount as you have bowls. ;) > > And the same amount of Magic of the Smiths? :) > And the same amount of Sybil's Tongues? :) :) > > Ha, Ha, I out smiley-faced you! Let the smiley war begin? Probably not. Sibyl's Tongue is a great card, and it really can be used to fetch the Bowl. But, unfortunately, S&B deck can't afford this card - both the place it requires (if you're going to pack Sibyl's Tongues, you need several copies) and the actions. If I use Sybil's Tongues, I'll have less stealth cards or bleed modifiers, and this will hurt a lot. Moreover, you will need TWO actions to contest the Bowl, as Sibyl's Tongue just fetches it, not equips. Thus, your prey with the Bowl can attempt to block Sybil's Tongue (get a bunch of stealth cards to pass it) and then it can attempt to block the Bowl (get ANOTHER bunch of stealth cards...) > > > And please tell me, what will you do if you DON'T have FN, EI and > > LinC > > > in your hand? > > > > > > This shouldn't happen over a 10 card spread (7in hand plus 3 > redraws) > > > if you have built your deck correctly. > > Most of Tournament-Winning Kindred Spirits decks have no more than 5 > > copies of any stealth card. If you have 5 FN, 5 EI and 5 LinC, what > are > > your chances to get them ALL in the first 10 cards??? Less than 10%, > I > > guess. > > Any yet they won the tournament. Your arguement is looking pretty weak > here. Let me know when the fact sinks in that they won the > tournament..... They WERE winning the tournaments prior to the Bowl, Channel 10 and Charlton. The previous metagame didn't allow to defend against Kindred Spirits without building too heavy intercept deck that wasn't going to win. New cards grant the defense for a low price, both in terms of resources (pool, actions etc) and card slots. > > > My general point is that Kindred Spirits deck cannot perform the > > demonstrated feats of stealth REGULARLY, as it can use only Elder > > Impersonation to avoid blocks. > > And yet, perhaps on Bizarro World this is how people argue, doesn't it > seem just a little paradoxical that you are using anti-Malk decks in > the Tournament Winning archives to try to justify how anti-Malk decks > can't win? They can win occasionally if nobody uses "anti-!Malk silver bullets" (i.e. the Bowl, Channel 10 and Charlton). But this is very unlikely, and thus Kindred Spirits decks are no more "tier one" decks (please excuse the termin borrowed from Magic). Ector

David Cherryholmes wrote: > So what do you mean by "work"? It shouldn't mean as much as > guaranteeing you win that game, because no deck does that. But I would > agree working should at least mean you have a good shot at winning that > game, and that this would be supported by a good number of game wins. I mean exactly that. > > Can > > I al least try to explain the low number of Elder Impersonations? > > If your prey plays intercept, EI is amazing - just force him to play > > 2-3 intercept cards, then play it. But if your prey refuses to block > > you (a common tactic used by non-intercept decks against stealth > > decks), Elder Impersonation is awful. You cannot play it at all. Some > > stealth modifiers can be played even in this situation (Spying Mission, > > Swallowed by the Night), but not EI. If you really put 8 EIs into the > > deck, they are going to clog in your hand. > > I hate tit-for-tat, I really do, but I'm going to go ahead and invoke > Dreams, specifically because it's these types of decks that can afford > to blow gratuitous numbers of master slots on multiples of DI and > Dreams, because they've got so much covered by Kindred Spirits bleeding. > And, everyone knows that some players might try to jam you by not > blocking, which is why you need lots of Dreams to ensure discards. And > if not Dreams, then other hand tuners. Dreams are ultra-powerful, though the early Dreams are almost always used to influence vampires faster, not to draw cards. The Barrens is popular enough. But KS deck can't rely on these cards, as it has no time to wait for them, and they are likely to be contested. And there aren't many free master slots, as we want to play Sudden Reversals to stop Minion Taps and Blood Dolls of our prey, Blood Dolls to prevent wasting actions on hunting, skill cards, etc. etc. > So that's to not getting to play it. Then there's playing at inferior > for good old +1 stealth. There should be lots more opportunities where > it'd be useful for that. You're killing people quickly, sooner or later > the don't-block crowd is going to hit block-or-die, and then all the > stealth flows freely. I don't think that a good player may hope to block stealth-bleed if he refused to block all the game, even if he's going to die. > > Most Kindred Spirits deck are playing vampires with inferior Obfuscate. > > Really? I'll take your word for it, because I'm not looking it up. I'm > no tournament winning stealth bleed player, but it seems to me that I > could and would make room for some obfuscate and dementation skill > cards; skill cards are generally considered bad, but the decks have > master space to spare, live by speed, and each one played is a huge boost. Oh, I can safely swear that Yorik, Persia and Uncle George are used virtually in all Kindred Spirits decks :) Obfuscate skill cards can be used, but the deck should work without them, since it cannot wait. > > Persia and Uncle George are very popular. Obviously, for such vamps > > Elder Impersonation is just a "bad stealth card", as it costs a blood. > > What else are they using their blood for? You are bouncing, right? And > gaining pool with your uberaction. You don't *need* Blood Dolls. I > mean, you might need them by midgame or later so you can keep your guys > moving, but you can draw into a few of them by then. Elder is the only > stealth card you play that does cost blood, which is sustainable. Unfortunately, I really need Blood Dolls. Some popular vampires are quite heavy (Korah and Kite with 7 capacity), so I often need to regain the blood to be able to influence more vampires without falling to 5-6 pool which is quite dangerous. However, Blood Dolls are most commonly used to feed an empty vampire and prevent hunting. Where do they lose their blood? Mostly in combat, as nobody can completely avoid combat in this game. > > BTW, the cost is NOT negligible even for vamps with superior Obfuscate > > - I won countless games with several vamps having 1 blood each. > > I do think the cost is negligible for the reasons I gave, and I don't > see what your second sentence has to do with your first. Oh, I managed to win these games because I had low amount of Elder Impersonations. A vamp with 1 blood can play the card, but he will hunt on the next turn. > > Moreover, Kindred Spirits decks are trying to minimize the chances of > > getting double stealth modifiers. Uncle George with inferior Obfuscate > > still can play 4-5 different stealth modifiers in a row, but not in a > > deck with 8 EIs and 8 FNs. > > I didn't assume the stealth cards stopped at 16. I would pick a few and > focus heavily on them, and then run a diverse spread along side them. > > I really don't know whether the deck with 8 EI and 8 FN is going to be > > playable or not. > Are you stopping at 16 stealth cards or not? I'm not. They surely will never stop at 16. I play nearly 30 now, and the number may only increase. I just wanted to note that having multiple copies may really hurt, as you can have, say, two EI and two FN and be unable to beat Charlton + a vamp with the Bowl. > > But overall the Kindred Spirits decks are going to be > > much weaker, as the decks can be hosed by a light intercept module now. > > It's hardly hosed. We've beaten our head against that wall enough, but > again.... how about considering how fast you are inflicting pool damage > on them and the number of cards they'll get to see and the odds of > drawing into them as stealth bleed is raining down on their head from > turn 2? I assume that my sample deck probably isn't good enough. But let's not get stuck to it... My point is very simple: some of the new cards (the Bowl, Channel 10 and Charlton) are "universal silver bullets" against Kindred Spirits decks, and they are going to be very popular. You may put these cards into any deck (only Bowl needs AUS, but most clans have vampires with Auspex) just to get a decent chance to block dangerous actions and get a good defense against S&B. You aren't bound to Thaumaturgy and Magic of the Smith - just use them as "prayer cards", like most decks use Delaying Tactics now. And you don't have to play an intercept deck - BTW, my sample deck is NOT an intercept deck, as it contains only light intercept module (6 permanent cards and 8 Second Traditions). IMHO, that's enough to change metagame to the point where Kindred Spirits decks would be unable to win tournaments. Ector

David Cherryholmes wrote: > So what do you mean by "work"? It shouldn't mean as much as > guaranteeing you win that game, because no deck does that. But I would > agree working should at least mean you have a good shot at winning that > game, and that this would be supported by a good number of game wins. I mean exactly that. > > Can > > I al least try to explain the low number of Elder Impersonations? > > If your prey plays intercept, EI is amazing - just force him to play > > 2-3 intercept cards, then play it. But if your prey refuses to block > > you (a common tactic used by non-intercept decks against stealth > > decks), Elder Impersonation is awful. You cannot play it at all. Some > > stealth modifiers can be played even in this situation (Spying Mission, > > Swallowed by the Night), but not EI. If you really put 8 EIs into the > > deck, they are going to clog in your hand. > > I hate tit-for-tat, I really do, but I'm going to go ahead and invoke > Dreams, specifically because it's these types of decks that can afford > to blow gratuitous numbers of master slots on multiples of DI and > Dreams, because they've got so much covered by Kindred Spirits bleeding. > And, everyone knows that some players might try to jam you by not > blocking, which is why you need lots of Dreams to ensure discards. And > if not Dreams, then other hand tuners. Dreams are ultra-powerful, though the early Dreams are almost always used to influence vampires faster, not to draw cards. The Barrens is popular enough. But KS deck can't rely on these cards, as it has no time to wait for them, and they are likely to be contested. And there aren't many free master slots, as we want to play Sudden Reversals to stop Minion Taps and Blood Dolls of our prey, Blood Dolls to prevent wasting actions on hunting, skill cards, etc. etc. > So that's to not getting to play it. Then there's playing at inferior > for good old +1 stealth. There should be lots more opportunities where > it'd be useful for that. You're killing people quickly, sooner or later > the don't-block crowd is going to hit block-or-die, and then all the > stealth flows freely. I don't think that a good player may hope to block stealth-bleed if he refused to block all the game, even if he's going to die. > > Most Kindred Spirits deck are playing vampires with inferior Obfuscate. > > Really? I'll take your word for it, because I'm not looking it up. I'm > no tournament winning stealth bleed player, but it seems to me that I > could and would make room for some obfuscate and dementation skill > cards; skill cards are generally considered bad, but the decks have > master space to spare, live by speed, and each one played is a huge boost. Oh, I can safely swear that Yorik, Persia and Uncle George are used virtually in all Kindred Spirits decks :) Obfuscate skill cards can be used, but the deck should work without them, since it cannot wait. > > Persia and Uncle George are very popular. Obviously, for such vamps > > Elder Impersonation is just a "bad stealth card", as it costs a blood. > > What else are they using their blood for? You are bouncing, right? And > gaining pool with your uberaction. You don't *need* Blood Dolls. I > mean, you might need them by midgame or later so you can keep your guys > moving, but you can draw into a few of them by then. Elder is the only > stealth card you play that does cost blood, which is sustainable. Unfortunately, I really need Blood Dolls. Some popular vampires are quite heavy (Korah and Kite with 7 capacity), so I often need to regain the blood to be able to influence more vampires without falling to 5-6 pool which is quite dangerous. However, Blood Dolls are most commonly used to feed an empty vampire and prevent hunting. Where do they lose their blood? Mostly in combat, as nobody can completely avoid combat in this game. > > BTW, the cost is NOT negligible even for vamps with superior Obfuscate > > - I won countless games with several vamps having 1 blood each. > > I do think the cost is negligible for the reasons I gave, and I don't > see what your second sentence has to do with your first. Oh, I managed to win these games because I had low amount of Elder Impersonations. A vamp with 1 blood can play the card, but he will hunt on the next turn. > > Moreover, Kindred Spirits decks are trying to minimize the chances of > > getting double stealth modifiers. Uncle George with inferior Obfuscate > > still can play 4-5 different stealth modifiers in a row, but not in a > > deck with 8 EIs and 8 FNs. > > I didn't assume the stealth cards stopped at 16. I would pick a few and > focus heavily on them, and then run a diverse spread along side them. > > I really don't know whether the deck with 8 EI and 8 FN is going to be > > playable or not. > Are you stopping at 16 stealth cards or not? I'm not. They surely will never stop at 16. I play nearly 30 now, and the number may only increase. I just wanted to note that having multiple copies may really hurt, as you can have, say, two EI and two FN and be unable to beat Charlton + a vamp with the Bowl. > > But overall the Kindred Spirits decks are going to be > > much weaker, as the decks can be hosed by a light intercept module now. > > It's hardly hosed. We've beaten our head against that wall enough, but > again.... how about considering how fast you are inflicting pool damage > on them and the number of cards they'll get to see and the odds of > drawing into them as stealth bleed is raining down on their head from > turn 2? [ quoted text not captured ]

The Lasombra wrote: > On 7 Dec 2004 06:07:12 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > > >Just look at TWDA > > This is a flawed speculation. > > In every month there are more than 80 tournaments world wide. > Fewer than 10 tournament winning decks make it into the archive in any > given month. When I pretented that !Malks had only one viable strategy, your argument would be good. As most of the TWD miss the archive, there may be other types of !Malk decks. But now I just used STATISTICS. Your TWDA is a good slice of information, and it's likely to contain decks from the major tournaments like Championships or Qualifiers. And if there are plenty of decks with Elder Impersonations, but NONE of them has more than five, I simply can't believe that this fact has no meaning. > Looking to the TWDA for proof of anything global is flawed. > > No, there isn't any better source, but flawed assumptions from flawed > data are without value regardless of whether or not better data is > available. All assumptions and all arguments are flawed somewhat. And TWDA statistics seems much less flawed to me than just unproven words. Everybody can say "use 40 Kindred Spirits", but shall I really do so? :) Ector

The Lasombra wrote: > On 7 Dec 2004 06:07:12 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > > >Just look at TWDA > > This is a flawed speculation. > > In every month there are more than 80 tournaments world wide. > Fewer than 10 tournament winning decks make it into the archive in any > given month. When I pretented that !Malks had only one viable strategy, your argument would be good. As most of the TWD miss the archive, there may be other types of !Malk decks. But now I just used STATISTICS. Your TWDA is a good slice of information, and it's likely to contain decks from the major tournaments like Championships or Qualifiers. And if there are plenty of decks with Elder Impersonations, but NONE of them has more than five, I simply can't believe that this fact has no meaning. > Looking to the TWDA for proof of anything global is flawed. > > No, there isn't any better source, but flawed assumptions from flawed > data are without value regardless of whether or not better data is > available. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > > > I DO have multiple minions with intercept, since Charlton is a minion. > > And having one minion with +2 intercept is far better than two minions > > with +1. > > Yeah, see, I;m not talking about the deck you proposed as somehow death to > S+B decks. I'm talking about the game in general. And while in some > instances, one minion with +2 intercept is better that two with +1 each, in > other instances, the converse is true. Maybe. But if you want to protect yourself against Kindred Spirits decks, one minion with +2 intercept is better in most situations. > > What? There are non-S&B !Malk decks? Where? > > I think 3 of the last 7 winning decks under the !Malk section are other than > S+B. Go look. One is a protean intercept deck. One is a black hand Thugee > deck. One is something else. I see. To me it's just misunderstanding, as these deck have just a few !Malk vampires, less than a half. > > Combat decks are obviously stronger now. > > Dude. I know combat decks. That KR and DU are banned means that combat decks > are slightly more worth playing. On the other hand, the Bowl and Channel X > aren't going to help combat decks much at all. The Bowl may be irrelevant if they have no Auspex. But Channel 10 and Charlton are wonderful in combat-heavy decks. Block with Channel 10 and get a "free Bum's Rush" each time you block. Get Charlton and use it to block hunts and resque actions to keep your Dragonbound working. And so on... > > And YOU have no means of regaining the blood spent on the > > Bowl... So the primary goal of including it is contesting, which > > definitely makes the deck weaker. > > What? Why can't you regain the blood spent? You have Blood Dolls and Kindred > Spirits. Do the math. Or a Hunting Ground. Either works fine. You cannot regain the blood in combat - you are going to lose much more. Blood Dolls? Do you think that KS decks have so much pool? They usually have at least two players against them. > The primary goal of having the Bowl is permanent +2 intercept potental. > Which is certainly handy. If you don't want to block combat heavy decks, > don't block them--they rarely do anything you want to block anyway. What decks I can block, then? Only decks with defensive combat or no combat at all. Ector

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > Maybe. But if you want to protect yourself against Kindred Spirits > decks, one minion with +2 intercept is better in most situations. But you *don't always need to protect yourself from Kindred Spirits decks*. VTES is not a game where you build a single deck to combat another single deck. You build a deck for a general field of opponents. Yes. A single minion with +2 intercept is better than 2 guys with +1 intercept, against a S+B deck. But against other decks, two guys with +1 intercept each are often better than one guy with +2. You don't, generally speaking, know what decks you are going to face when you build a given deck. > I see. To me it's just misunderstanding, as these deck have just a few > !Malk vampires, less than a half. Umm, so what? Thay have !Malkavians in them. They are in the TWD archive under the heading of !Malkavian decks. What else do you want? > The Bowl may be irrelevant if they have no Auspex. But Channel 10 and > Charlton are wonderful in combat-heavy decks. No. They aren't. In combat heavy decks, you don't, often, have actions to waste on getting allies. Or pool to waste on intercept locations. Or minions untapped to block anyone. Or Wakes to use that intercept when tapped. Sure, some do. But these already have intercept in them, and Channel X likely isn't going to make that much difference. > Block with Channel 10 and > get a "free Bum's Rush" each time you block. Unless you want to block their first action. Or they have +3 stealth (which is really easy to get--an inherrent +1 stealth action, like a vote, and Lost in Crowds or Forgotten Labyrinth at inferior). > Get Charlton and use it to > block hunts and resque actions to keep your Dragonbound working. And so > on... Yeah, see, combat doesn't work like this so much. At least not combat that is reliable enough to regularly win games. > You cannot regain the blood in combat - you are going to lose much > more. Blood Dolls? Do you think that KS decks have so much pool? They > usually have at least two players against them. No. They don't. And every KS they play gets them a pool, so yeah, they do have so much pool. And you don't need to regain blood in combat if you are blocking folks who aren't fighting with you and you dodge or manuver. Remember. Most people don't live in an environment where they are sitting next to 2 Rush decks every game, and regularly get rushed cross table by policy. > What decks I can block, then? Only decks with defensive combat or no > combat at all. Yes. That is a lot of decks. Really. And usually, those are the ones you need intercept to block (few decks have access to regular +2 stealth *and* scary combat *and* actions you really want to block). Maybe not in your environment, which seems particularly combat heavy. Most of the time, in general, you can rely on sitting next to at least one deck that has minimal combat. 'Cause most decks have minimal combat. Remember--you need to extrapolate into the wide arena of play if you are going to make blanket assumptions. You can't base general statements on your own experience if your experience seems to be weird if you want the general statements to be aplicable to all. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 7 Dec 2004 07:07:28 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru scrawled: > >Martin wrote: >> <<SNIP>> >> >> > But you're right, !Malks suffer most from the Charlton. Moreover, >they >> > cannot diablerize safely even with a vote lock now. >> > >> > >> >> Are you actually saying that the !Malks suffer more from Charlton >than, >> for example, the Toreadors? Clans unable to generate stealth in an >easy >> way (yeah, i know Carnivale, Alacrity and stuff exist for the >Toreadors) >> has a much larger problem with a +1 intercept minion than your >!Malks. >I said that because !Malks have virtually no ways to get rid of >Charlton. Toreador with a Magnum will shot him with a single Pursuit. I thought: a) charlton had a dodge. i could be wrong on that. b) !malk have Restructure. (not the Kindred Restructure vote, but the action card to hose allies). This i am sure of. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > > > Definitely, as I have no combat abilities and can't afford regularly > > blocking. Bowl and Sybil's Tongues would harm the primary strategy > > (bleed at stealth as fast as possible). > > A) We have already established that you can easily include Swallowed, > Gemini's Mirror, and Behind You for combat defense. +2 intercept lets you > block a lot of stuff other than combat decks that can kill you (especially > as you rarely need +2 intercept to stop decks that can reliably kill > you--most of their actions are at zero stealth). Having permanent +2 > intercept means you can block *non* combat decks, and all you have to do > against them is manuver to long range or dodge, generally speaking. > > Remember--in the rest of the world, it is unlikely that you'll be sittinf > between two Rush decks every game. The deck space is limited, and Kindred Spirits decks should be fast - they have no time to cycle unwanted cards. The previous discussion (about combat protection) was about non-S&B decks. S&B concentrates on bleeding and hopes to see no Rush predators. But I can agree that the Bowl can be good even in S&B deck, as it would allow to block most actions. Persia and Kite can block +1 stealth actions, which is wonderful against voting decks. Ben Peal's "Cheesequake" even included Rumor Mill and 3 Enhanced Senses. Unfortunately, I don't think that S&B deck can spend two actions on Sybil's Tongue and equipping the Bowl, and it cannot devote space on Sybil's Tongues. Thus, I may just unclude a few Bowls and hope to find them in time. > > As I posted, DOM/OBF decks will survive, as they have Seductions and > > Elder Impersonations. Kindred Spirits decks will die, as they have only > > Elder Impersonations, and nobody can pack 12 of them. > > Why not? And heck, you don't even need to. The reasons of NOT including 12 EI are in the other posts. Unfortunately, I'd definitely need them against the Bowl, or I'd be forced to provide +3 stealth for all my actions. > > The effect would be far from the same. If I get the Bowl, I can block > > +2 stealth actions for the rest of the game. If I have Enh.Senses, I > > can block ONE +2 stealth action. Even if I manage to torporize the > > catched !Malk, there are more. > > 8 Enhanced Senses compared to 2 Bowls and 6 Magics? Strikesme as a totally > even trade off, considering everything else the same. Except the Enhanceds > don't cost blood and other vampires can use them other than the single with > the Bowl. I thought this should be obvious but... Well, let's imagine that your Kindred Spirits predator has three minions. The first is declared to bleed you. You attempt to block, and he plays +1 stealth. You play your Enhanced Senses, he adds +2 stealth and passes. Then the second minion is going to bleed you, you attempt to block, he plays stealth, you play another Enhanced Senses... And then the third minion will bleed, and you will definitely find the third Enhanced Senses ;) Now compare this to the Bowl. He bleeds, you block, he adds +2 stealth and passes. Then the second minion bleeds, you block, and he needs +3 stealth to pass. The same for the third minion, for the next turn, etc. etc.

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > > > I know the !Malks better than other clans, and I really like most of > > the vampires and such clan cards as Sybil's Tongue. > > 'Cause it is good. Yet you maintain that you can't use them, as they hinder > your decks. Sybil's Tongue is inappropriate in S&B decks, as they have no time and no slots for it. But in most other decks it's wonderful. > > Surely, I'd like my > > clan to be more popular and more versatile, so I'm acting as > > "anti-Malkavian advocate". > > They are already incredibly popular and versitile. They are popular 'cause > they are the second most effective S+B clan in the game (only second due to > fewer vampires than the regular Malks). S+B has always been and always will > be a first tier strategy, Archon Investigation, Bowl of Convergence, and > Channel X be dammned. They are versitile 'cause they have: > > -Obfuscate: Allows for significant offensive power. > -Auspex: Allows for significant defensive power. > -Dementation: Allows for significant bleeding power (the number 1 way to win > games) as well as combat abilities, more stealth, more intercept, combat > defense (Voice of Madness), and numerous other wacky abilities. > > It is good to act as their advocate. But don't be, like, thinking that that > they aren't already good. They were good prior to 10th. The Bowl really makes them not-so-good.

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > > > Maybe. But if you want to protect yourself against Kindred Spirits > > decks, one minion with +2 intercept is better in most situations. > > But you *don't always need to protect yourself from Kindred Spirits decks*. > VTES is not a game where you build a single deck to combat another single > deck. You build a deck for a general field of opponents. Yes. A single > minion with +2 intercept is better than 2 guys with +1 intercept, against a > S+B deck. But against other decks, two guys with +1 intercept each are often > better than one guy with +2. > > You don't, generally speaking, know what decks you are going to face when > you build a given deck. Definitely. But you can just include some cards as "silver bullets" against certain strategies, like Delaying Tactics against voting decks. So, if you have AUS, you can include the Bowl as a "silver bullet" against all stealth decks. > > I see. To me it's just misunderstanding, as these deck have just a few > > !Malk vampires, less than a half. > > Umm, so what? Thay have !Malkavians in them. They are in the TWD archive > under the heading of !Malkavian decks. What else do you want? I guess that one !Malk is enough to call the deck "!Malk deck". I will review such decks when I run out of true !Malk decks (having at least half !Malks). > > Block with Channel 10 and > > get a "free Bum's Rush" each time you block. > > Unless you want to block their first action. Or they have +3 stealth (which > is really easy to get--an inherrent +1 stealth action, like a vote, and Lost > in Crowds or Forgotten Labyrinth at inferior). What if they have no Forgotten Lab and Lost in Crowds? They will eventually end anyway. > > Get Charlton and use it to > > block hunts and resque actions to keep your Dragonbound working. And so > > on... > > Yeah, see, combat doesn't work like this so much. At least not combat that > is reliable enough to regularly win games. Is this tactic bad, and why? > > You cannot regain the blood in combat - you are going to lose much > > more. Blood Dolls? Do you think that KS decks have so much pool? They > > usually have at least two players against them. > > No. They don't. > > And every KS they play gets them a pool, so yeah, they do have so much pool. > And you don't need to regain blood in combat if you are blocking folks who > aren't fighting with you and you dodge or manuver. Remember. Most people > don't live in an environment where they are sitting next to 2 Rush decks > every game, and regularly get rushed cross table by policy. The simplest example: you block Jost Werner's political action and burn a blood to get +2 intercept. In combat your vamp and Jost perform hand strikes. You lost two blood total, he lost one. Who is speaking about two Rush neighbours? Do you dare to block a Toreador with Magnum? A Tzimisce? Any bruise & bleed minion? Neither of these decks is Rush. > > What decks I can block, then? Only decks with defensive combat or no > > combat at all. > > Yes. That is a lot of decks. Really. And usually, those are the ones you > need intercept to block (few decks have access to regular +2 stealth *and* > scary combat *and* actions you really want to block). Maybe not in your > environment, which seems particularly combat heavy. Most of the time, in > general, you can rely on sitting next to at least one deck that has minimal > combat. 'Cause most decks have minimal combat. You are right. Any deck with AUS can use the Bowl against stealth decks, even another stealth deck :) Ector

salem wrote: > On 7 Dec 2004 07:07:28 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru scrawled: > >I said that because !Malks have virtually no ways to get rid of > >Charlton. Toreador with a Magnum will shot him with a single Pursuit. > > I thought: > a) charlton had a dodge. i could be wrong on that. Charlton can dodge once per combat. That's why Pursuit is needed. Toreador gets additional strike and shots Charlton. > b) !malk have Restructure. (not the Kindred Restructure vote, but the > action card to hose allies). This i am sure of. Surely. But how many Restructures can you put into S&B deck? Ector

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > salem wrote: > >>On 7 Dec 2004 07:07:28 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru scrawled: > > >>>I said that because !Malks have virtually no ways to get rid of >>>Charlton. Toreador with a Magnum will shot him with a single > > Pursuit. > >>I thought: >>a) charlton had a dodge. i could be wrong on that. > > Charlton can dodge once per combat. That's why Pursuit is needed. > Toreador gets additional strike and shots Charlton. > Because every Toreador deck contains cards that grants additional strikes - right ? > >>b) !malk have Restructure. (not the Kindred Restructure vote, but the >>action card to hose allies). This i am sure of. > > Surely. But how many Restructures can you put into S&B deck? > > Ector > Well. If you were willing to include, lets say 2, and also 3-5 Sybils Tongue, you should have an ok chance to get one quickly in case your prey brings in Charlton and you weren't able to block him. In case you ever meet a War Ghoul or Renegade Garou deck (and lets all remember that excactly those two kinds of decks won the two main tournament events at the EC 2004) the card can help you. Actually, if I were playing !Malks, I would be a bit more scared of a War Ghoul or a Garou than Charlton, but it might just be me. Sure, Charlton may block an action or two, he might even forfeit his dodge to cause a damage to your vampire, but the Ghouls or Garous will kick your vampires stealth bleeding behinds. You try to argue that you can't build a stealth bleed deck with Sybils Tongue - quote: "Sybil's Tongue is inappropriate in S&B decks, as they have no time and no slots for it. But in most other decks it's wonderful." First, let's agree that the goal of the game is to win (ok, I (almost) always have fun, even in the process of losing, but anyway). From your posts it's obvious that you think, that the new cards has made it almost impossible for !Malks to win, since they can only stealth bleed. Well, now let's assume that you add the following to your deck: 1-2 Restructure, 1-2 Bowl/Anarch Troublemaker, 1-2 Channel X/Unnatural Disaster/Arson and 3-5 Sybils tongue. Thats like 6-11 cards. If adding these cards will make you win more games, then you should add them. You should never think of a card as inappropriate if it makes you win more games. It shouldn't matter if it makes your deck less focused, if it wins more games, period. All is good, !Malk stealth bleed is saved, you should be happy, and most people will still groan when they get you as predator (not because it's you, but because it's not that great to have a SB predator unless you really pack a lot of bounce). Before you add the cards, let's just lean back, and do some analysis. The following is based on the playgroup I'm in, which is obviously not representative for the whole world, so let's keep that in mind. A vampire like Carna is good - you get the three clan disciplines at superior, and +1 intercept, and a title, and a special ability, for 7 pool. She is obviously a good vampire. A card like Mr Winthrop is good, he gives unconditional permanent +1 intercept to a minion as the only card in the game (correct me if I'm wrong), thats great! On the other hand I don't see those cards in every game, actually I don't see them in the majority of games. Is it because they are bad cards ? Not in my opinion, it's just that the game is so huge and full of possibilities, that you can't expect to see all cards every time. In your analysis, it seems that you will allways have a prey that uses the bowl and Carna/Lucas. In reality this is pretty unrealistic. Assuming there actually is such a deck in your (5 player) game, you only got 25% chance of having it as prey. On the other hand you also have 25% chance of having it as predator. If that's the case, you might kill the other three players, and emerge victorious. I do agree that you might have a problem with having a wall as prey, whether or not it uses the Bowl or Carna. As other people have said, good use of cards like Elder Impersonation can still give you the upper hand. You just have to accept that most decks have it's nemesis, if there was a 'perfect deck', then the game wouldn't be much fun, right? The wall deck you posted would be creamed by a classic Nos/!Nos 'drawing+grapple+hit you for a 400' deck, which is creamed by a Gangrel 'flesh of marble+claws' deck, which isn't that good, because it uses a million turns to oust people. Focused decks often have a super nemeis that destroys their strategy. More toolboxy (versatile) decks can adapt to most opponents, but will lack the super focused ousting power or defensive power of the more focused decks. My conclusion is this: If you think you will se a lot of wall decks using the new cards, then adapt, evolve, survive - change your deck and keep winning games. If you accept the fact that you will probably not see those decks that often, keep your deck as it is (possibly with a few changes). You might have a nightmare prey occasionally (sp?), and then it's ok to sit down and cry. Just like it's ok to cry when playing Toreador vote and having weenie potence as predator, or Settite Night Moves trying to oust a deck using Mattias. In case the new cards are seen in every game, you've got the tools to do something about it. If you refuse to do that, and still complain about being unable to win, then I think you should look for another game to play. Stealth bleed is still one of the most powerful types of deck, with or without the Bowl and Channel X.

Ector wrote: >>Definitely. But you can just include some cards as "silver bullets" against certain strategies, like Delaying Tactics against voting decks. So, if you have AUS, you can include the Bowl as a "silver bullet" against all stealth decks.>> Sure. But it isn't that much of a silver bullet--you need to have AUS already for it to be remotely more effective than a Sport Bike. And having one as a fringe defense is just that--fringe. Once you start doing things like staking Bowls and adding Magics and whatever, you start having to decide which is better--all the infrastructure to get 1 Bowl or just spending the slots of transient intercept (i.e. Enhanced Senses). >>I guess that one !Malk is enough to call the deck "!Malk deck". I will review such decks when I run out of true !Malk decks (having at least half !Malks).>> I don't know what Jeff uses to determine whether or not something of a given clan deck, but the ones I saw were the 7 most recent winning decks under !Malkavian. That is all. >>What if they have no Forgotten Lab and Lost in Crowds? They will eventually end anyway.>> Then you might block them. But then you might block them with a Sport Bike, too. >>Is this tactic bad, and why?>> Well, often, combat decks run on a knife edge, and don't have actions and pool to spend on recruiting allies. I mean, yeah, ok, including one of him isn't going to kill you, but including one is a fringe, prayer based strategy. >>The simplest example: you block Jost Werner's political action and burn a blood to get +2 intercept. In combat your vamp and Jost perform hand strikes. You lost two blood total, he lost one. Who is speaking about two Rush neighbours? Do you dare to block a Toreador with Magnum? A Tzimisce? Any bruise & bleed minion? Neither of these decks is Rush.>> Sure. 'Cause you have some light defense, remember? Some Swallowed by the Nights to manuver, or some Behind You to dodge. If you are planning on blocking folks, and if you are using the Bowl, you are planning to block folks, you include some light defense. >>You are right. Any deck with AUS can use the Bowl against stealth decks, even another stealth deck :)>> Correct. I'm not saying the Bowl is bad. It is a good card. And useful. And if you have access to it (i.e. you have AUS already), you might as well use one, 'cause +2 intercept is often useful. But it is hardly the death knell of anything, let alone S+B decks. -Peter

On 7 Dec 2004 00:58:42 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > >Otto Koskinen wrote: >> On 6 Dec 2004 09:23:08 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru wrote: >> >> So, lets take this just one more step up. You've used 5 turns to >bring >> out two vamps, provided no speed (likely), and your preda has used >his >> 5 turns to bring out 3 minions, at least. >> After this action, you are down to 2 pool (likely, you'd be dead but >> for the sake of drama..) completely tapped out, and your pred still >> has 2 ready minions to suck those 2 away from you. >> GG. > >Seems like a strange math. Lucas and Anastaszi are 18 pool total. Even >if I had no accelerators (there are four of them) and no Minion Taps >(there were five), I should have 12 pool left. And if I was seriously >bled, I simply won't influence the second vampire without Governs >(there are eight of them). > >Ector Read the whole quote.

Martin wrote: > > Charlton can dodge once per combat. That's why Pursuit is needed. > > Toreador gets additional strike and shots Charlton. > > > > Because every Toreador deck contains cards that grants additional > strikes - right ? Either additional strikes or Majesty, IMHO. But Charlton will really spoil your game if you use Majesty :) > Actually, if I were playing !Malks, > I would be a bit more scared of a War Ghoul or a Garou than Charlton, > but it might just be me. Sure, Charlton may block an action or two, he > might even forfeit his dodge to cause a damage to your vampire, but the > Ghouls or Garous will kick your vampires stealth bleeding behinds. War Ghoul and Garou are clan-specific; Charlton is available to all. So you are going to see a lot of them. [ quoted text not captured ] Maybe it's the right way, but I don't believe in it. As I already posted, you'll need to pass BOTH Sybil's Tongue for the Bowl and the Bowl itself, which would be very hard against the opponent's Bowl. Restructure is even worse, as it has zero stealth. Actually, S&B deck simply cannot pack more non-S&B cards than it has now. There are master cards, and there are Wakes and bounce, and there may be some combat defense, but 10 more non-S&B cards will make the deck unreliable. > Before you add the cards, let's just lean back, and do some analysis. > The following is based on the playgroup I'm in, which is obviously not > representative for the whole world, so let's keep that in mind. > > A vampire like Carna is good - you get the three clan disciplines at > superior, and +1 intercept, and a title, and a special ability, for 7 > pool. She is obviously a good vampire. A card like Mr Winthrop is good, > he gives unconditional permanent +1 intercept to a minion as the only > card in the game (correct me if I'm wrong), thats great! Both are quite popular, IMHO > On the other hand I don't see those cards in every game, actually I > don't see them in the majority of games. Is it because they are bad > cards ? Not in my opinion, it's just that the game is so huge and full > of possibilities, that you can't expect to see all cards every time. Carna is Tremere, and she is suited for intercept decks - this limits her usage. If you a building a weenie deck, you will prefer Aisling and Hannigan. Why should Mr.Winthrop be popular like the Bowl if he provides only +1 intercept (not +2), and he is easily killed with any ranged weapon? > In your analysis, it seems that you will allways have a prey that uses > the bowl and Carna/Lucas. In reality this is pretty unrealistic. > Assuming there actually is such a deck in your (5 player) game, you only > got 25% chance of having it as prey. On the other hand you also have 25% > chance of having it as predator. If that's the case, you might kill the > other three players, and emerge victorious. The Bowl, yes, but not Carna/Lucas. Aisling with the Bowl would be enough. And if we assume that there are two players with the Bowls in my game, I'm going to be stuck with 0-1 VP instead of Game Win. > I do agree that you might have a problem with having a wall as prey, > whether or not it uses the Bowl or Carna. As other people have said, > good use of cards like Elder Impersonation can still give you the upper > hand. You just have to accept that most decks have it's nemesis, if > there was a 'perfect deck', then the game wouldn't be much fun, right? Kindred Spirits deck is going to be hosed by ANY vampire with AUS, the Bowl and decent combat capabilities, not just "the wall prey". Even by another Kindred Spirits deck - just imagine Kite having the Bowl and Ivory Bow. > The wall deck you posted would be creamed by a classic Nos/!Nos > 'drawing+grapple+hit you for a 400' deck, which is creamed by a Gangrel > 'flesh of marble+claws' deck, which isn't that good, because it uses a > million turns to oust people. Focused decks often have a super nemeis > that destroys their strategy. More toolboxy (versatile) decks can adapt > to most opponents, but will lack the super focused ousting power or > defensive power of the more focused decks. My sample deck WASN'T focused on intercept. It was very versatile, as it could play both intercept and bruise&bleed. Again, ANY deck with Auspex can use the Bowl and will probably use it as a "prayer card". > My conclusion is this: If you think you will se a lot of wall decks > using the new cards, then adapt, evolve, survive - change your deck and > keep winning games. If you accept the fact that you will probably not > see those decks that often, keep your deck as it is (possibly with a few > changes). You might have a nightmare prey occasionally (sp?), and then > it's ok to sit down and cry. Just like it's ok to cry when playing > Toreador vote and having weenie potence as predator, or Settite Night > Moves trying to oust a deck using Mattias. Unfortunately, the situation is much more serious, and Kindred Spirits decks are going to be hosed by many different decks, not by just one. > In case the new cards are seen in every game, you've got the tools to do > something about it. If you refuse to do that, and still complain about > being unable to win, then I think you should look for another game to > play. Stealth bleed is still one of the most powerful types of deck, > with or without the Bowl and Channel X. That's why everybody will pack Bowls and Channels to defend against it, and it won't be "the most powerful" anymore. Ector

pd...@lightlink.com wrote: > Ector wrote: > >>Definitely. But you can just include some cards as "silver bullets" > against certain strategies, like Delaying Tactics against voting decks. > So, if you have AUS, you can include the Bowl as a "silver bullet" > against all stealth decks.>> > > Sure. But it isn't that much of a silver bullet--you need to have AUS > already for it to be remotely more effective than a Sport Bike. And > having one as a fringe defense is just that--fringe. Once you start > doing things like staking Bowls and adding Magics and whatever, you > start having to decide which is better--all the infrastructure to get 1 > Bowl or just spending the slots of transient intercept (i.e. Enhanced > Senses). Magic was used to fetch all equipment, not just the Bowl. And the Bowl is a perfect "silver bullet" for many, many decks that have AUS but not intercept cards. Assamites, !Toreadors, even !Malks can use it and will definitely use it. > >>Is this tactic bad, and why?>> > > Well, often, combat decks run on a knife edge, and don't have actions > and pool to spend on recruiting allies. I mean, yeah, ok, including one > of him isn't going to kill you, but including one is a fringe, prayer > based strategy. That still can save you in many situations. > >>The simplest example: you block Jost Werner's political action and > burn > a blood to get +2 intercept. In combat your vamp and Jost perform hand > strikes. You lost two blood total, he lost one. > Who is speaking about two Rush neighbours? Do you dare to block a > Toreador with Magnum? A Tzimisce? Any bruise & bleed minion? Neither of > these decks is Rush.>> > > Sure. 'Cause you have some light defense, remember? Some Swallowed by > the Nights to manuver, or some Behind You to dodge. If you are planning > on blocking folks, and if you are using the Bowl, you are planning to > block folks, you include some light defense. The best protection card is Gemini's Mirror, and it also costs a blood. Overall, the protection is too light to survive combat regularly. > >>You are right. Any deck with AUS can use the Bowl against stealth > decks, even another stealth deck :)>> > > Correct. I'm not saying the Bowl is bad. It is a good card. And useful. > And if you have access to it (i.e. you have AUS already), you might as > well use one, 'cause +2 intercept is often useful. But it is hardly the > death knell of anything, let alone S+B decks. You finally said it! "If you have AUS, you can use the Bowl". Everyone is going to think the same way. Now imagine a table where ALL decks have at least one Bowl. It's going to get into play, and Kindred Spirits deck will be stopped by it. No more Game Wins for KS decks... You should try to test a Kindred Spirits deck against the new cards, and you will clearly see the current situation. Ector Ector

<Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message news:1102523262....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > Magic was used to fetch all equipment, not just the Bowl. And the Bowl > is a perfect "silver bullet" for many, many decks that have AUS but not > intercept cards. Assamites, !Toreadors, even !Malks can use it and will > definitely use it. Oops. The Assamites got stronger. Clearly there was not enough playtesting. I'll see to it that that doesn't happen again. :-) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

LSJ wrote: > Oops. The Assamites got stronger. Clearly there was not enough > playtesting. I'll see to it that that doesn't happen again. :-) Hah-friggin-ha. Nice to see you finally admit it, though. ;) -- David Cherryholmes masochist

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > Martin wrote: > >>>Charlton can dodge once per combat. That's why Pursuit is needed. >>>Toreador gets additional strike and shots Charlton. >>> >> >>Because every Toreador deck contains cards that grants additional >>strikes - right ? > > Either additional strikes or Majesty, IMHO. But Charlton will really > spoil your game if you use Majesty :) > > >>Actually, if I were playing !Malks, >>I would be a bit more scared of a War Ghoul or a Garou than Charlton, > > >>but it might just be me. Sure, Charlton may block an action or two, > > he > >>might even forfeit his dodge to cause a damage to your vampire, but > > the > >>Ghouls or Garous will kick your vampires stealth bleeding behinds. > > War Ghoul and Garou are clan-specific; Charlton is available to all. So > you are going to see a lot of them. > And Charlton is unique, unlike the Ghoul and Garou. [ quoted text not captured ] OK, so 6-11 cards is 10 cards. Replace a master or two with Troublemaker and/or Unnatural disaster, take out one wake, one bounce, two bleed and two stealth, will that really make the deck that more unreliable? You claim you can't win games with your current deck because of the new cards. You are unwilling to change the deck, since you think it will be 'unreliable'. Would you like to conclude on those facts for yourself - or should I do it ? (please don't conclude that the !Malks are unplayable) You seem so sure that the cards will be in every game (and controlled by your prey) that I simply can't believe you won't change your deck to do something against it. I personally don't think it will be seen in all games, and wouldn't change my deck much, if I were you. [ quoted text not captured ] No. They would contest and you could stealth past them, and win. > >>I do agree that you might have a problem with having a wall as prey, >>whether or not it uses the Bowl or Carna. As other people have said, >>good use of cards like Elder Impersonation can still give you the > > upper > >>hand. You just have to accept that most decks have it's nemesis, if >>there was a 'perfect deck', then the game wouldn't be much fun, > > right? > Kindred Spirits deck is going to be hosed by ANY vampire with AUS, the > Bowl and decent combat capabilities, not just "the wall prey". Even by > another Kindred Spirits deck - just imagine Kite having the Bowl and > Ivory Bow. > Kite won't have those, right ? It would use too much space in a Kindred Spirits to get them reliably. You - the author of the !Malk newsletter has says that. I've never ever played !Malk SB, so you must know that better than me. > >>The wall deck you posted would be creamed by a classic Nos/!Nos >>'drawing+grapple+hit you for a 400' deck, which is creamed by a > > Gangrel > >>'flesh of marble+claws' deck, which isn't that good, because it uses > > a > >>million turns to oust people. Focused decks often have a super nemeis > > >>that destroys their strategy. More toolboxy (versatile) decks can > > adapt > >>to most opponents, but will lack the super focused ousting power or >>defensive power of the more focused decks. > > My sample deck WASN'T focused on intercept. It was very versatile, as > it could play both intercept and bruise&bleed. > Again, ANY deck with Auspex can use the Bowl and will probably use it > as a "prayer card". > > If they use it as a prayer card, it means it's just a card they put in the deck, because it *might* come in handy - right? That means they probably will not have more than one or two in the deck, and probably not a way to get them. You might very well have ousted them before they get the bowls. In your scenarioes it's like "My prey has the Bowl on a prince in turn 3 or 4" - now come on.... That's not what will happen in every game, accept it please. >>My conclusion is this: If you think you will se a lot of wall decks >>using the new cards, then adapt, evolve, survive - change your deck > > and > >>keep winning games. If you accept the fact that you will probably not > > >>see those decks that often, keep your deck as it is (possibly with a > > few > >>changes). You might have a nightmare prey occasionally (sp?), and > > then > >>it's ok to sit down and cry. Just like it's ok to cry when playing >>Toreador vote and having weenie potence as predator, or Settite Night > > >>Moves trying to oust a deck using Mattias. > > Unfortunately, the situation is much more serious, and Kindred Spirits > decks are going to be hosed by many different decks, not by just one. Unlike Toreador Vote or Settite Night Moves which are only 'hosed' by one type of deck? > > >>In case the new cards are seen in every game, you've got the tools to > > do > >>something about it. If you refuse to do that, and still complain > > about > >>being unable to win, then I think you should look for another game to > > >>play. Stealth bleed is still one of the most powerful types of deck, >>with or without the Bowl and Channel X. > > That's why everybody will pack Bowls and Channels to defend against it, > and it won't be "the most powerful" anymore. > So everybody uses auspex in every deck? Come on..... There might be a bit of contesting if everybody packs them, but I don't know. Let's just say, _for the sake of argument_, that you are right - stealth bleed is not the most powerful decktype anymore, so what ? Ideally all decktypes should be equally strong, but unfortunately that is not the way things are. If SB became weaker I wouldn't cry a river. You are just whining because you think that your precious !Malks might be weaker than before the 10th ann. set. That may be, but that they are weaker does not make them weak. I suggest you go build a standard assamite deck (as opposed to a standard !Malk deck), and try playing it for a couple of months. If you come back with a lot of gamewins I would very much like to see your deck, since I'm a huge fan of them. you might, on the other hand, realize that the !Malks aren't that weak, who knows? You keep arguing in spite of the fact that every other person who has posted in this thread disagree with you, the combined playing experience of all those people must be well above 100 years, opposed to your couple of months. Have you ever stopped to consider that you might actually be wrong? > Ector >

LSJ wrote: > <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message > news:1102523262....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > >>Magic was used to fetch all equipment, not just the Bowl. And the Bowl >>is a perfect "silver bullet" for many, many decks that have AUS but not >>intercept cards. Assamites, !Toreadors, even !Malks can use it and will >>definitely use it. > > > Oops. The Assamites got stronger. Clearly there was not enough > playtesting. I'll see to it that that doesn't happen again. :-) > Rewording maybe? 'Not usable by an assamite' That would help, but clearly it would still make them too strong, since Clan Impersonation will still work around it :/

Ector wrote: >>Magic was used to fetch all equipment, not just the Bowl.>> Once again, not talking about a specific deck. Yes. If you have a Tremere deck that is already full of equipment and Magics and has reliable AUS, it will be easy to include a Bowl or two without any extra overhead at all. But it won't make that much difference to the deck--the extra +1 intercept once or twice a turn isn't going to significantly improve the deck. Many decks it sits next to never have more than +1 stealth, and other decks have reliable +3 stealth. So it certainly isn't going to hurt such a deck, but it isn't going to make a huge difference in the long run. >>And the Bowl is a perfect "silver bullet" for many, many decks that have AUS but not intercept cards. Assamites, !Toreadors, even !Malks can use it and will definitely use it.>> Sure. But again, it isn't going to be, really, that much more effective than a Sports Bike. Or Mr. Minthrop. 'Cause exactly +2 intercept is only better than exactly +1 intercept occasionally. >>That still can save you in many situations.>> Yes. Yes it can. But many decks are not built to diversify in the name of being more consistient. The decks that you are really afraid of killing you, generally speaking, are the consistient ones. And they are the ones that can't really afford to waste actions, pool and card slots on the occasional "maybe it will save me". >>The best protection card is Gemini's Mirror, and it also costs a blood. Overall, the protection is too light to survive combat regularly.>> Combat against what? We are talking about, in this particular instance, using the Bowl in a !Malk deck for intercepting stuff rather than just contesting. If you are intercepting non combat related decks (as you don't want to intercept combat decks anyway, really), the manuvers from Swallowed by the Night, or the dodge/manuver from Behind You, or the manuvers from, like, disguised .38's, all of which are perfectly viable in a S+B deck (or any !Malk deck) will work just fine. >>You finally said it! "If you have AUS, you can use the Bowl". Everyone is going to think the same way. Now imagine a table where ALL decks have at least one Bowl.>> If all decks have at least one Bowl? Yeah. It is going to be contested. >> It's going to get into play, And then contested... >> and Kindred Spirits deck will be stopped by it. No more Game Wins for KS decks...>> Dude. You are on crack. A single, unique piece of equipment that can provide +2 intercept by spending a blood *if* you already have AUS is not going to result in no more game wins for KS decks. If you are *that* concerned that this single piece of equipment is going to end your deck before it starts, you can: -Include Anarch Troublemaker. -Include your own Bowl. -Include more stealth. -Include Elder Impersonation. -Include Coma. I could come up with plenty more ways to foil this single card that in no way compromise the effectiveness of a S+B deck. Even remotely. >>You should try to test a Kindred Spirits deck against the new cards, and you will clearly see the current situation.>> I see the current situation. Kindred Spirits+Confusion+Lost in Crowds=Bleed of 3 at +3 stealth. Please expound. -Peter

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:31oos4F...@individual.net... > <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message > news:1102523262....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... >> Magic was used to fetch all equipment, not just the Bowl. And the Bowl >> is a perfect "silver bullet" for many, many decks that have AUS but not >> intercept cards. Assamites, !Toreadors, even !Malks can use it and will >> definitely use it. > > Oops. The Assamites got stronger. Clearly there was not enough > playtesting. I'll see to it that that doesn't happen again. :-) > :-) You're posting as _quite_ the cheeky rules-monkey these days... Holidays have you in good spirits? Excellent... DaveZ Atom Weaver

Ec...@mail.ru wrote: > Surely. But how many Restructures can you put into S&B deck? Enough to get with the 4 or 5 Sybil's Tounges you have... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 11:38:25 -0500, "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: ><Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message >news:1102523262....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... >> Magic was used to fetch all equipment, not just the Bowl. And the Bowl >> is a perfect "silver bullet" for many, many decks that have AUS but not >> intercept cards. Assamites, !Toreadors, even !Malks can use it and will >> definitely use it. > >Oops. The Assamites got stronger. Clearly there was not enough >playtesting. I'll see to it that that doesn't happen again. :-) I'll say. Wicked, wicked, wicked man.

LSJ wrote: > Oops. The Assamites got stronger. Clearly there was not enough > playtesting. I'll see to it that that doesn't happen again. :-) > Then you should immediately ban Charlton. It really makes Assamites stronger combined with Fast Reaction. But I guess that was your intention :) Ector

Martin wrote: > > War Ghoul and Garou are clan-specific; Charlton is available to all. So > > you are going to see a lot of them. > > > And Charlton is unique, unlike the Ghoul and Garou. Nevertheless, KS deck is going to see him much more often. Eventually somebody may contest him, but he's likely to slow KS deck for several turns, and this would definitely make KS decks weaker. > > Actually, S&B deck simply cannot pack more non-S&B cards than it has > > now. There are master cards, and there are Wakes and bounce, and there > > may be some combat defense, but 10 more non-S&B cards will make the > > deck unreliable. > > > > OK, so 6-11 cards is 10 cards. Replace a master or two with Troublemaker > and/or Unnatural disaster, take out one wake, one bounce, two bleed and > two stealth, will that really make the deck that more unreliable? It certainly will. Stealth & bleed deck should bleed at stealth. Any cards that are not stealth modifiers or bleed modifiers weaken the primary strategy. Actually I will need MORE stealth cards now, as virtually any deck can now pack "+intercept" cards. I admit that your advice is good, and this maybe the single way to adapt, but the KS decks will be much weaker anyway, and I doubt that they will be able to win tournaments. BTW, Rush decks became stronger, and Rush predator is a nemesis of KS deck. > You claim you can't win games with your current deck because of the new > cards. You are unwilling to change the deck, since you think it will be > 'unreliable'. Would you like to conclude on those facts for yourself - > or should I do it ? (please don't conclude that the !Malks are unplayable) What does the word "playable" mean to you? Everything is playable, at least for fun. Kindred Spirits deck were Tier 1, and they won some tournaments, but now they are much weaker, and I don't believe that they will be able to win in the future. > You seem so sure that the cards will be in every game (and controlled by > your prey) that I simply can't believe you won't change your deck to do > something against it. I personally don't think it will be seen in all > games, and wouldn't change my deck much, if I were you. I've already got a good advice "play another clan" :) Speaking about !Malks, I will definitely try to do something with the Tongues, but, look, I'm newbie, and I'm not going to play European Championships... Our local players will hardly have a lot of 10th Ann. cards anyway. But I really care about the !Malks around the world :) > > The Bowl, yes, but not Carna/Lucas. Aisling with the Bowl would be > > enough. And if we assume that there are two players with the Bowls in > > my game, I'm going to be stuck with 0-1 VP instead of Game Win. > > > > No. They would contest and you could stealth past them, and win. Are you sure they WOULD contest? You have KS predator, and you really need the Bowl. Your prey has predator without stealth (you), so he doesn't need the Bowl. > > Kindred Spirits deck is going to be hosed by ANY vampire with AUS, the > > Bowl and decent combat capabilities, not just "the wall prey". Even by > > another Kindred Spirits deck - just imagine Kite having the Bowl and > > Ivory Bow. > > > > Kite won't have those, right ? It would use too much space in a Kindred > Spirits to get them reliably. You - the author of the !Malk newsletter > has says that. I've never ever played !Malk SB, so you must know that > better than me. Yes, Kite shouldn't have those in a Kindred Spirits deck. But if the deck will be forced to include Sybil's Tongues, as you proposed, this may really happen. Looks like Kindred Spirits deck is going to morph into "toolboxy jack-of-all-trades", which may be good somewhat, but it won't be as effective as true KS deck. > > Again, ANY deck with Auspex can use the Bowl and will probably use it > > as a "prayer card". > > > > > > If they use it as a prayer card, it means it's just a card they put in > the deck, because it *might* come in handy - right? That means they > probably will not have more than one or two in the deck, and probably > not a way to get them. You might very well have ousted them before they > get the bowls. In your scenarioes it's like "My prey has the Bowl on a > prince in turn 3 or 4" - now come on.... That's not what will happen in > every game, accept it please. Surely, my prey may have no time to find his Bowl, but my granprey will have it - no GW for Kindred Spirits deck, just one VP. > > Unfortunately, the situation is much more serious, and Kindred Spirits > > decks are going to be hosed by many different decks, not by just one. > > Unlike Toreador Vote or Settite Night Moves which are only 'hosed' by > one type of deck? This situation is completely different. > So everybody uses auspex in every deck? Come on..... There might be a > bit of contesting if everybody packs them, but I don't know. Al least half of the tournament decks can use Auspex. That's enough. I can even predict that the Bowl will make Auspex even more attractive. Everybody who can pack Bowls will do it, but this doesn't mean that the Bowl will always be contested. Remember, it's just a "silver bullet" against stealth decks. If I don't need it, will I contest it just to allow my S&B grandpredator to oust my predator? > Let's just say, _for the sake of argument_, that you are right - stealth > bleed is not the most powerful decktype anymore, so what ? Ideally all > decktypes should be equally strong, but unfortunately that is not the > way things are. If SB became weaker I wouldn't cry a river. You are just > whining because you think that your precious !Malks might be weaker than > before the 10th ann. set. That may be, but that they are weaker does not > make them weak. Your words are very strange, and I really don't see what do you want to say. Do you want to say that weakening S&B is good for the game? I don't think so. And taking away the single tournament-winning !Malk strategy is definitely bad. > I suggest you go build a standard assamite deck (as opposed to a > standard !Malk deck), and try playing it for a couple of months. If you > come back with a lot of gamewins I would very much like to see your > deck, since I'm a huge fan of them. you might, on the other hand, > realize that the !Malks aren't that weak, who knows? Again, I cannot catch your argument here. Assamites are weak, and !Malks should be weak too? IMHO, any clan should have at least one winning strategy, and preferably more. If Assamites are very bad (cannot say anything here, as I've never played Assamites), they should be made stronger. > You keep arguing in spite of the fact that every other person who has > posted in this thread disagree with you, the combined playing experience > of all those people must be well above 100 years, opposed to your couple > of months. Have you ever stopped to consider that you might actually be > wrong? I definitely can be wrong. Just show me where: + The Bowl is going to be used in any deck having enough vampires with superior Auspex, at least as a "silver bullet". + The Bowl either stops Kindred Spirits deck or forces it to spend its stealth and bleed modifiers in a single action, which makes it extremely vulnerable to bounce. + Channel 10 provides ANY deck with a good chance to block at least some of S&B actions. Thus, it also makes a good "silver bullet" against them, and it's also going to be popular. + Charlton is good against voting decks without stealth. + Charlton is extremely good against diablerie-based decks. + Charlton is good against equipment-based decks without stealth and Jacks of Both Sides. Did you ever consider the fact that this thread is NOT a focused discussion? And it really doesn't matter who is "right" and who is "wrong"? In fact, I'm pretty sure that even those famous people with combined experience of 100 years or more learned something new from this topic :) Ector

pd...@lightlink.com wrote: > But it won't make that much difference to the > deck--the extra +1 intercept once or twice a turn isn't going to > significantly improve the deck. Many decks it sits next to never have > more than +1 stealth, and other decks have reliable +3 stealth. So it > certainly isn't going to hurt such a deck, but it isn't going to make a > huge difference in the long run. It really MAKES a huge difference. Permanent +1 intercept allows you to block political actions, equipping, hunting, resquing, Govern etc. etc. And I'm not aware of the decks with "reliable +3 stealth". Jost Werner + Creepshow Casino + political actions, maybe? This deck was never as fast or as aggressive as S&B decks. > Sure. But again, it isn't going to be, really, that much more effective > than a Sports Bike. Or Mr. Minthrop. 'Cause exactly +2 intercept is > only better than exactly +1 intercept occasionally. Surely. But the Bowl is better than the Bike and Mr.Winthrop, so it will be popular. That's enough. > >>That still can save you in many situations.>> > > Yes. Yes it can. But many decks are not built to diversify in the name > of being more consistient. The decks that you are really afraid of > killing you, generally speaking, are the consistient ones. And they are > the ones that can't really afford to waste actions, pool and card slots > on the occasional "maybe it will save me". "Silver Bullets" are played only when they are needed. If my predator has a lot of stealth, I will play my Bowl. If not, I can discard it. > >>The best protection card is Gemini's Mirror, and it also costs a > blood. > Overall, the protection is too light to survive combat regularly.>> > > Combat against what? We are talking about, in this particular instance, > using the Bowl in a !Malk deck for intercepting stuff rather than just > contesting. If you are intercepting non combat related decks (as you > don't want to intercept combat decks anyway, really), the manuvers from > Swallowed by the Night, or the dodge/manuver from Behind You, or the > manuvers from, like, disguised .38's, all of which are perfectly viable > in a S+B deck (or any !Malk deck) will work just fine. Looks like the KS deck is going to be transformed into "toolbox" with Sybil's Tongues, weapons, Disguiseds etc. This may result in a decent deck... or not. But the famous Kindred Spirits decks are dead now. > >>You finally said it! "If you have AUS, you can use the Bowl". > Everyone > is going to think the same way. Now imagine a table where ALL decks > have at least one Bowl.>> > > If all decks have at least one Bowl? Yeah. It is going to be contested. Really? If my predator played it to defend against his predator (S&B), would I contest it? I guess not. > >> and Kindred Spirits deck will be stopped by it. No more Game Wins > for KS decks...>> > > Dude. You are on crack. A single, unique piece of equipment that can > provide +2 intercept by spending a blood *if* you already have AUS is > not going to result in no more game wins for KS decks. I've never seen crack :) There is no crack in Belarus... > If you are *that* concerned that this single piece of equipment is > going to end your deck before it starts, you can: > > -Include Anarch Troublemaker. I definitely will. But I doubt that I'll have enough Troublemakers to deal with all Bowls on the table. And I should use Sybil's Tongues to fetch it. > -Include your own Bowl. Good idea. Again, Tongues are needed, as well as a lot of stealth to push both Tongue and the Bowl. > -Include more stealth. Impossible - it will clog my hand if my prey won't block me. > -Include Elder Impersonation. Already included, but it's just a temporary solution. > -Include Coma. Definitely bad card when I name my strike first, as it can be dodged. > >>You should try to test a Kindred Spirits deck against the new cards, > and you will clearly see the current situation.>> > > I see the current situation. Kindred Spirits+Confusion+Lost in > Crowds=Bleed of 3 at +3 stealth. Please expound. Gladly. You've lost two stealth cards to pass a single action. Kindred Spirits deck usually has 3-4 vampires that should bleed each turn if possible. Guess how many stealth cards do you need to let them all pass the Bowl. And remember that two cards will do only if one of them is Lost in Crowds or Elder Impersonation. Without them you will need three cards. And you should consider possibilities of bounce. Your +3 stealth/3 bleed action can be bounced, and your grandprey is very unlikely to block it. Ector

In message <1102583108.2...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Ec...@mail.ru mumbled something about: >Did you ever consider the fact that this thread is NOT a focused >discussion? And it really doesn't matter who is "right" and who is >"wrong"? In fact, I'm pretty sure that even those famous people with Actually, it does matter. One of the newsletter writers is abusing his newsletter in two ways: 1) He's using it as a soapbox to post meaningless, tearful rants about how his clan can't do, instead of trying to post POSITIVE things that his clan _can_ do. 2) He's posting information of questionable truth that he hasn't even tested first. The newsletters are supposed to be sources of accurate and helpful information. Your last one was not; it was a source of tears and whining. We haven't run into this before in the past, but at this point I'm inclined to suggest that you step down and let someone who's more pro-!Malk take over. You obviously are not willing to try new !Malk strategies, and that's something a newsletter writer should be trying to do and promote. >combined experience of 100 years or more learned something new from >this topic :) Yeah. I learned that even in a game like this, there really are people in the world who are willfully ignorant; who refuse to playtest concepts that disagree with their preconceived notions; and who believe that somehow, in the face of all the facts against them, that they are doing the Right Thing. These people are imbeciles, and you are one of them. -- Derek a host is a host from coast to coast and no one will talk to a host that's close unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:k0lgr0heffo9d5232...@4ax.com... > In message <1102583108.2...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, > Ec...@mail.ru mumbled something about: > > >Did you ever consider the fact that this thread is NOT a focused > >discussion? And it really doesn't matter who is "right" and who is > >"wrong"? In fact, I'm pretty sure that even those famous people with > > Actually, it does matter. > > One of the newsletter writers is abusing his newsletter in two ways: > > 1) He's using it as a soapbox to post meaningless, tearful rants about > how his clan can't do, instead of trying to post POSITIVE things that > his clan _can_ do. > > 2) He's posting information of questionable truth that he hasn't even > tested first. > > The newsletters are supposed to be sources of accurate and helpful > information. Your last one was not; it was a source of tears and > whining. We haven't run into this before in the past, but at this point > I'm inclined to suggest that you step down and let someone who's more > pro-!Malk take over. You obviously are not willing to try new !Malk > strategies, and that's something a newsletter writer should be trying to > do and promote. > (snip) Tune into my next Tremere Newsletter entitled "Thaumaturgy Sucks, Don't Use It" or "101 Ways to Screw Over Malkavian Antitribu Decks"! Dorrinal Blackmantle Chronicler of Clan Tremere

[ quoted text not captured ] Looking forward to it. You just have to include the bowl in your monthly deck, then you have surely made an Anti-Malkavian Antitribu deck!

Ector wrote: >>It really MAKES a huge difference. Permanent +1 intercept allows you to block political actions, equipping, hunting, resquing, Govern etc. etc. And I'm not aware of the decks with "reliable +3 stealth". Jost Werner + Creepshow Casino + political actions, maybe? This deck was never as fast or as aggressive as S&B decks.>> ??? Any deck with regular OBF has reliable +3 stealth. Either inherently stealth actions (calling votes, equipping, hunting) and Lost in Crowds or Lost in Crowds and another stealth card, of which there are likely enough. Or obf and vote calling and Forgotten Labyrinth. A !Malk S+B deck, again, is getting +3 stealth, easily, by playing Confusion and Lost in Crowds on top of that Kindred Spirits. Decks that have stealth get +3 stealth without much work. Decks that don't have stealth usually only have +1 stealth from inherrent actions. Decks that can regularly generate exactly +2 stealth (and consequently get shut down by the Bowl) are few and far between. >>Surely. But the Bowl is better than the Bike and Mr.Winthrop, so it will be popular. That's enough.>> But it isn't better. It requires you to have AUS (not an insignificant cost, and if you have AUS, you already have access to Enhanced senses which doesn't require an equip action and doesn't cost blood). I mean, yeah, ok, if you have a deck with reliable AUS and you are willing to include equipment (and the means to get it into play), then the Bowl will likely go in. I have a few decks currently that have reliable AUS and like to block things. None of them have equipment. Adding equipment, even equipment that gives them permanent intercept, will not improve these decks. I suspect there are a lot of decks like that. >>Looks like the KS deck is going to be transformed into "toolbox" with Sybil's Tongues, weapons, Disguiseds etc. This may result in a decent deck... or not. But the famous Kindred Spirits decks are dead now.>> Umm, no. Take any TWD archive Kindred Spirits deck. Replace one fringe master with an Anarch Troublemaker. Swap out a few other cards for a few Sybil's Tounges and a Bowl. The deck is not going to be any less effective than it was before. It will likely be more. >>Really? If my predator played it to defend against his predator (S&B), would I contest it? I guess not.>> Why not? If if your predator played it, why do you care that it is in play if you are a forward momentum S+B deck? >>I've never seen crack :) There is no crack in Belarus...>> You are probably better off. Crack is wack, as they say. >>I definitely will. But I doubt that I'll have enough Troublemakers to deal with all Bowls on the table. And I should use Sybil's Tongues to fetch it.>> All the bowls on the table? What are you talking about? Are you honestly seeing an environment where every deck is including Bowls all the time? That your predator will *always* have a Bowl? Again, this might just be your wacky play environment. If every other player you regularly play with is going to build their deck just to screw with you specifically, then yeah, ok. But we already had this discussion. You need to extrapolate to the rest of the world, where not every table consists of an S+B deck and then 4 combat decks all trying to kill the S+B deck all the time. >>Good idea. Again, Tongues are needed, as well as a lot of stealth to push both Tongue and the Bowl.>> You are a Malk S+B deck. You already have a lot of stealth. Lost in Crowds + Equip = +3 stealth. Again. >>Impossible - it will clog my hand if my prey won't block me.>> I thought the whole problem was that your prey *was* blocking you, because of the Bowl and Channel X, which are making S+B decks obsolete... >>Already included, but it's just a temporary solution.>> As long as the temporary solution works long enough to oust someone, it doesn't matter if it is temporary. How many times do you need to bleed someone to oust them? Lets say you can average 4 pool per bleed. Do you need to hit more than 5 times? Even *if* someone gets Archon Investigated? Really? >>Definitely bad card when I name my strike first, as it can be dodged.>> Yes. Yes it can. But it isn't always going to be dodged (lots of decks don't include ddodges, ya know). >>Gladly. You've lost two stealth cards to pass a single action.>> Yup. And I bled someone for 3. I do that 4 or 5 more times, and I probably oust them. I can afford the 10 stealth cards to oust my prey. >>Kindred Spirits deck usually has 3-4 vampires that should bleed each turn if possible. Guess how many stealth cards do you need to let them all pass the Bowl. And remember that two cards will do only if one of them is Lost in Crowds or Elder Impersonation. Without them you will need three cards.>> Ya huh. >>And you should consider possibilities of bounce. Your +3 stealth/3 bleed action can be bounced, and your grandprey is very unlikely to block it.>> Ok. I thought your complaint here was that the Bowl was going to completely obsolete S+B decks. That bounce exists isn't a new issue. At all. -Peter

I wrote: >>Umm, no. Take any TWD archive Kindred Spirits deck. Replace one fringe master with an Anarch Troublemaker. Swap out a few other cards for a few Sybil's Tounges and a Bowl. The deck is not going to be any less effective than it was before. It will likely be more.>> So I decided to do this. Here is Ben Peal's "Cheesquake", likely a good example of a "Kindred Spirits" deck that can win games. Right, here is the original: 1 x Adelaide Davis (4): obf dem aus 1 x Jeremy Talbot (4): obf dem 1 x Persia, the Beautiful Statue (5): DEM obf aus 1 x Evan Klein (5): OBF dem aus pre 1 x Tony (6): DEM AUS obf dom 1 x Dr. Douglas Netchurch (6): OBF AUS dem dom 1 x Yorik (3): dem obf 1 x Claven (4): dem obf aus 1 x Artemis (6): OBF DEM aus cel for 1 x Dolphin Black (6): OBF DEM AUS 1 x Kite (7): DEM AUS obf pre 1 x Korah (7): OBF DEM AUS ani LIBRARY 1 x Institution Hunting Ground 1 x The Barrens 1 x The Rumor Mill, Tabloid Newspaper 1 x Anarch Troublemaker 1 x Misdirection 4 x Blood Doll 1 x Life Boon 2 x Sudden Reversal 1 x Auspex 1 x Dementation 1 x Change of Target 8 x Wake with Evening's Freshness 5 x Elder Impersonation 5 x Lost in Crowds 5 x Spying Mission 5 x Cloak the Gathering 5 x Faceless Night 3 x Swallowed by the Night 2 x Domain of Evernight 18 x Kindred Spirits 6 x Confusion 8 x Telepathic Misdirection 3 x Enhanced Senses 1 x The Call 1 x Muddled Vampire Hunter So we want to get a a Bowl in, and some Sybils Tounges to get them. We also want an Anarch Troublemaker. Luckily, the deck already has one, so no need to add one. Looking at this particular deck, I'd be perfectly happy to swap out, say, the Rumor Mill (a single intercept location that we'll replace with a single intercept equipment), 1 Swallowed by the Night (as there is a lot of stealth, one fewer isn't going to hurt likely, and I find the lack of symetry problematic), and then 2 of the Kindred Spirits (16 is likely as good at 18, really, and if necessary, the Sybil's Tounges can become the KS's deeperin the deck). Right. So I remove 5 cards and put in 1 Bowl of Convergence and 4 Sybil's Tounges. It seems very unlikely that the deck will suffer at all due to this particular tweaking. And the 4 Sybils Tounges can be used to get, as appropriate: -Bowl of Convergence (you need to block stuff) -Muddles (you need to kill weenies) -Telepathic Misdirection (you need to bounce something soon) -Anarch Troublemaker (you need to kill an Assault Rifle or another Bowl) -Sudden Reversal (your prey is on the ropes and you need to make sure he doesn't Minion Tap next turn) This is in no way a criticism of Ben's deck, which is clearly an effective one. But it is an illustration how easy it is to adapt to a given percieved problem without a given deck strategy becoming even remotely compromised, and possibly becoming more useful overall. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <1102605655.9...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, pd...@lightlink.com writes: >Decks that have stealth get +3 stealth without much work. Decks that >don't have stealth usually only have +1 stealth from inherrent actions. >Decks that can regularly generate exactly +2 stealth (and consequently >get shut down by the Bowl) are few and far between. Not to detract from the general thrust of the argument: A couple of the disciplines like Protean (Earth Control, Rapid Change etc. and Backways for Gangrel) and Vicissitude (Changeling, Plasmic Form) can generate low level stealth without generating buckets of the stuff. I've seen a reasonable number of such decks which can generate a bit of stealth here and there. They tend to work okay in environments where most intercept is a few locations (or possibly specialised forms of intercept, like Pack Tactics), and people assume that "combat" decks == no stealth at all meaning they can keep people on their toes. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though! EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.

In message <1102491437.8...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Ec...@mail.ru writes: >Sybil's Tongue is inappropriate in S&B decks, as they have no time and >no slots for it. But in most other decks it's wonderful. In some S&B decks, sure. S&B is *not* just about having all your vampires bleed every turn, however. Sure, you can play it like that. Just like you can play a combat deck that taps itself out every turn and doesn't include Wakes. It's a possible - and potentially good - strategy in both cases, based off speed and focus. This isn't the only way to play either deck, however. That you're a stealth and bleed deck doesn't mean you can't include versatility and strength in other areas, when you think you'll need to throw a spanner in the works. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > S&B is *not* just about having all your vampires bleed every turn, > however. Sure, you can play it like that. Just like you can play a > combat deck that taps itself out every turn and doesn't include Wakes. I would also like to point out, as opposed to many other deck strategies, Stealth and Bleed decks are one of the strategies with the most latitude for taking actions other than their main focus (i.e. bleeding at stealth). If every sucessful main strategy action you take depeletes your prey's pool 3-5 points, it is usually ok to "waste" an action here and there to do things that shore up the rest of the deck (like Tounge for a Bowl, for instance). Decks that only bleed at, say, 2 per action or decks that use large titled vampires to KRC for 3 per action have far fewer "free" actions than a S+B deck that is likely to have 3-4 minions in play at any given time, has an easy time getting actions to succeed (due to stealth), and even gain pool whenever the action works. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > A couple of the disciplines like Protean (Earth Control, Rapid Change > etc. and Backways for Gangrel) and Vicissitude (Changeling, Plasmic > Form) can generate low level stealth without generating buckets of the > stuff. Oh, sure. Like a VIC bleed deck has trouble going beyond +2 stealth (Changeling/Plasmic Form). Protean has pretty reliable access to +3 stealth (Earth Control at superior plus, say, Form of Mist), but yeah, it isn't impossible that a Protean based stealth plan top out at +1. But really, still, most decks tend to either have regular +1 stealth (inherrent actions, Bonding based bleed, light stealth from, like, Changeling or something) or have access to pretty reliable +3 stealth (from OBF). The Bowl, giving you permanent +2 intercept, in most cases, will either be too much ('cause they only have +1 stealth) or not enough (as they can generate +3). Sometimes, yeah, someone will top out at +2 (I have at least one deck like that), but most of the time, they either have +1 or 3+ available. > I've seen a reasonable number of such decks which can generate a bit of > stealth here and there. They tend to work okay in environments where > most intercept is a few locations (or possibly specialised forms of > intercept, like Pack Tactics), and people assume that "combat" decks == > no stealth at all meaning they can keep people on their toes. Sure--light stealth occurs all the time, but looking at the Bowl, again, I suspect that most decks (60%? 70%? I'm just making up numbers) have either *only* +1 stealth availble or 3+ stealth as a reliable option. The +2 from the Bowl, again, certainly won't hurt, but isn't, like, a magic bullet for the decks that have exactly +2 stealth, as there aren't that many of those. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 18:40:52 -0500, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >If every sucessful main strategy action you take depeletes your prey's pool >3-5 points, it is usually ok to "waste" an action here and there to do >things that shore up the rest of the deck (like Tounge for a Bowl, for That is my new favorite phrase. "Tongue for a Bowl." Xian continue swimming naked...

Xian wrote: > That is my new favorite phrase. > > "Tongue for a Bowl." Heh. I'm going to use that in every day conversation tomorrow. Somehow. It might get me in trouble, as I teach high school, but damnit! I'm gonna use it! [ quoted text not captured ]

On 9 Dec 2004 01:05:08 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru wrote: >It certainly will. Stealth & bleed deck should bleed at stealth. Any >cards that re not stealth modifiers or bleed modifiers weaken the >primary strategy. Actually I will need MORE stealth cards now, as >virtually any deck can now pack "+intercept" cards. So prior to the new set coming out, decks couldn't play Sport Bike, Mr. Winthrop, KRCG, Rumor Mill, London Evening Star, Club Zombie, WMRH Talk Radio, Raven Spy, Raptor, Elder Intervention, Pack Tactics, Legwork, (and to be complete...) Aranthebes, Atonmenet, Aura Absorption, Babble, [list truncated to avoid tedium]? >I admit that your advice is good, and this maybe the single way to >adapt, but the KS decks will be much weaker anyway, and I doubt that >they will be able to win tournaments. BTW, Rush decks became stronger, >and Rush predator is a nemesis of KS deck. And Rush decks don't win very much. Maybe they'll win a little more frequently now? I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing. >What does the word "playable" mean to you? Everything is playable, at >least for fun. Kindred Spirits deck were Tier 1, and they won some >tournaments, but now they are much weaker, and I don't believe that >they will be able to win in the future. "Much." I do not think it means what you think it means. >Surely, my prey may have no time to find his Bowl, but my granprey will >have it - no GW for Kindred Spirits deck, just one VP. I fail to see the tragedy. >Al least half of the tournament decks can use Auspex. That's enough. I Half? Are you sure? >can even predict that the Bowl will make Auspex even more attractive. >Everybody who can pack Bowls will do it, but this doesn't mean that the Unlikely. Many decks don't bother to intercept actions that other decks take. >Your words are very strange, and I really don't see what do you want to >say. Do you want to say that weakening S&B is good for the game? I >don't think so. And taking away the single tournament-winning !Malk >strategy is definitely bad. I don't think that this is the only tournament-winning strategy for the !Malks. The following deck, by Ben Peal (hi Ben!), is definitely not strictly S&B (large bleeds at multiple stealth). Though I imagine that Ben had a lot of "bleed for 1" actions. http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k4originssaturday This deck http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#camarillaconclave2k1 is definitely not all S&B. Nor is this: http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#leedec99 S&B is definitely a popular choice for the !Malks, but it's not the only choice. However, decreasing the winning-ness of S&B wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. It might not be a good thing either. But I think that the general sense regardubg S&B around the world is that it does just fine, and could stand to give up a few wins here and there to other deck types. [snip suggestion to play Assamites] >Again, I cannot catch your argument here. Assamites are weak, and >!Malks should be weak too? IMHO, any clan should have at least one Nope, he's saying that the Assamites are weak. If you tried playing them, you might realize that the !Malkavians are not in as much trouble as you think they are. >winning strategy, and preferably more. If Assamites are very bad >(cannot say anything here, as I've never played Assamites), they should >be made stronger. Probably. But it appears that LSJ has something against them. ;) However, if you were to try playing them, you might appreciate the !Malks more, and not whine as much. >+ The Bowl is going to be used in any deck having enough vampires with >superior Auspex, at least as a "silver bullet". Probably not. It may be used in a number of decks with AUS, but almost certainly not *any* deck with it. Lots of decks with AUS don't like to take any actions. At all. Getting the bowl is an action. I'm certain that a number of decks that have access to AUS won't use it as the deck won't be focused on that. Big Toreador vote, perhaps? >+ The Bowl either stops Kindred Spirits deck or forces it to spend its >stealth and bleed modifiers in a single action, which makes it >extremely vulnerable to bounce. Does it stop just KS decks? Or does it stop other forms of stealthy decks too? If the former, then maybe you have a point. If the latter, then maybe the desired effect it to make stealthy decks work harder for the money. >+ Channel 10 provides ANY deck with a good chance to block at least >some of S&B actions. Thus, it also makes a good "silver bullet" against >them, and it's also going to be popular. Like 2nd Tradition has been destroying S&B? Note also that Channel 10 is conditional, and if you only bleed once a turn, it can't be used. +2 intercept once a turn, not on the first action isn't that big a deal, IMO. >+ Charlton is good against voting decks without stealth. >+ Charlton is extremely good against diablerie-based decks. >+ Charlton is good against equipment-based decks without stealth and >Jacks of Both Sides. Charlton costs 2 pool, can't bleed, has no strength, no maneuvers, only 2 life, and is very squishy. He's not "extremely good" against diablerie-based decks. He has a conditional special that comes into play if diablerie occurs. Which in many locales does not happen frequently. Xian inconceiveable!

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 18:49:11 -0500, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >Sure--light stealth occurs all the time, but looking at the Bowl, again, I >suspect that most decks (60%? 70%? I'm just making up numbers) have either >*only* +1 stealth availble or 3+ stealth as a reliable option. The +2 from >the Bowl, again, certainly won't hurt, but isn't, like, a magic bullet for >the decks that have exactly +2 stealth, as there aren't that many of those. Peter, you're obviously forgetting my All Ascendance - All the Time deck's companion, 90 Lost Crowds on the Wall. Crypt is Agrippina x2, Tansu Bekir, Badr al-Budur, Count Ormonde, Grendel the Worm-Eaten, Lithrac x3 (for extra Bakija Gambit-ness), Olivia x2, Zebulon. Xian MIA

My apologies for delay with the answers, but I was unable to reply due to the server error "Reference line is too long" :) pd...@lightlink.com wrote: > Any deck with regular OBF has reliable +3 stealth. Either inherently > stealth actions (calling votes, equipping, hunting) and Lost in Crowds > or Lost in Crowds and another stealth card, of which there are likely > enough. If you mean "possible +3 stealth", it can be obtained, but you cannot RELY on having this for each action, at least playing the current Kindred Spirits decks. Thus, you can penetrate the Bowl sometimes, but just sometimes... > >>Surely. But the Bowl is better than the Bike and Mr.Winthrop, so it > will be popular. That's enough.>> > > But it isn't better. It requires you to have AUS (not an insignificant > cost, and if you have AUS, you already have access to Enhanced senses > which doesn't require an equip action and doesn't cost blood). I mean, > yeah, ok, if you have a deck with reliable AUS and you are willing to > include equipment (and the means to get it into play), then the Bowl > will likely go in. I have a few decks currently that have reliable AUS > and like to block things. None of them have equipment. Adding > equipment, even equipment that gives them permanent intercept, will not > improve these decks. I suspect there are a lot of decks like that. The Bowl also doesn't cost blood if you don't need the second +1 intercept (and if you do, you'd gladly pay the price in most cases). What equipment those AUS decks could use? Sport Bike is much worse, as it costs 1 pool and provides only +1 intercept. > >>Looks like the KS deck is going to be transformed into "toolbox" with > Sybil's Tongues, weapons, Disguiseds etc. This may result in a decent > deck... or not. But the famous Kindred Spirits decks are dead now.>> > > Umm, no. Take any TWD archive Kindred Spirits deck. Replace one fringe > master with an Anarch Troublemaker. Swap out a few other cards for a > few Sybil's Tounges and a Bowl. The deck is not going to be any less > effective than it was before. It will likely be more. Ok, I'll try this. The result is likely to appear in the February newsletter (the January will be about weenie decks) May I suggest a simple exercise to you: just open the deck in your ELDB (or Anarch Revolt deckbuilder), press Draw button and guess how many actions at +3 stealth you will be able to perform with the draw :) > >>Really? If my predator played it to defend against his predator > (S&B), > would I contest it? I guess not.>> > > Why not? If if your predator played it, why do you care that it is in > play if you are a forward momentum S+B deck? That time I spoke as a non-S&B deck would think :) But even a S&B deck doesn't want another S&B as a predator, really. I think that even I would play S&B and my non-stealth predator would defend against another S&B with the Bowl, I'll try to make a deal with the predator ("I won't contest your Bowl, you won't spoil my game"). > >>I definitely will. But I doubt that I'll have enough Troublemakers to > deal with all Bowls on the table. And I should use Sybil's Tongues to > fetch it.>> > > All the bowls on the table? What are you talking about? Well, the Troublemaker is needed now. I just wanted to say that it doesn't grant 100% protection against Bowls, but it's really good. > >>Good idea. Again, Tongues are needed, as well as a lot of stealth to > push both Tongue and the Bowl.>> > > You are a Malk S+B deck. You already have a lot of stealth. Lost in > Crowds + Equip = +3 stealth. Again. How much is "a lot"? Amount of stealth is calculated to be able to beat "occasional intercept" all the time, and "light intercept" most of the time, but not to jam your hand if nobody tries to block. With 30 stealth cards in a deck (which is typical for current Kindred Spirits decks), you will be able to provide +3 stealth rarely enough. With 50 stealth cards, you are likely to push two actions per turn, but would you really put 50 stealth cards? That's the main problem. > >>Impossible - it will clog my hand if my prey won't block me.>> > > I thought the whole problem was that your prey *was* blocking you, > because of the Bowl and Channel X, which are making S+B decks > obsolete... Again, the deck should work in different circumstances. And a deck with 50 stealth cards will be jammed if your prey has no intercept and refuses to block you, especially if you use a lot of Lost in Crowds and Elder Impersonations that can be used ONLY as stealth. > >>Already included, but it's just a temporary solution.>> > > As long as the temporary solution works long enough to oust someone, it > doesn't matter if it is temporary. How many times do you need to bleed > someone to oust them? Lets say you can average 4 pool per bleed. Do you > need to hit more than 5 times? Even *if* someone gets Archon > Investigated? Really? Unfortunately, for Kindred Spirits deck "average" is likely to be 2 pool, not 4. Actually, 4 is maximum bleed for a single vamp barring Madman's Quills (Kindred Spirits + Eyes of Chaos). And if you bleed for 4, you're just asking for bounce or AI. > >>Definitely bad card when I name my strike first, as it can be > dodged.>> > > Yes. Yes it can. But it isn't always going to be dodged (lots of decks > don't include ddodges, ya know). S:CE will also do :) > >>Gladly. You've lost two stealth cards to pass a single action.>> > > Yup. And I bled someone for 3. I do that 4 or 5 more times, and I > probably oust them. I can afford the 10 stealth cards to oust my prey. Yes, but you will spend 6-7 turns cycling for needed stealth modifiers, and your prey can bloat all this time. And he would cycle for bounce :) > >>And you should consider possibilities of bounce. Your +3 stealth/3 > bleed action can be bounced, and your grandprey is very unlikely to > block it.>> > > Ok. I thought your complaint here was that the Bowl was going to > completely obsolete S+B decks. That bounce exists isn't a new issue. At > all. But you could share your bleed modifiers between several bleed actions. Bleed for 2 - no bounce? Then bleed for 3 - still no bounce? Then bleed for 4 :) Now you can just bleed for 4, and that's extremely bad. Ector

Sorry for placing the answer here, but I was unable to reply due to the "Reference header is too long" error. Peter D Bakija wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I really consider "the Cheesequake" as the best KS deck, though I cannot understand the need of Enhanced Senses :) This deck seriously differs from the majority of KS decks in TWDA. It has no Eyes of Chaos, so it can bleed for 3 maximum, and even this is quite rare, as there are only 6 Confusions. Most bleeds of this deck are bleeds for 1 and 2, so it needs to pass A LOT of bleed actions. To make this possible, "Cheesequake" has an outstanding amount of stealth - 36 stealth cards, including Confusions. I have to note than only 5 of 12 vampires have superior Obfuscate. Thus, most stealth cards will work as "+1 stealth", and you will need 3 stealth cards to beat the Bowl for each action. Would you argue that THIS deck is going to be completely stopped by the Bowl unless it manage to contest/destroy it? And this is the best KS deck with a lot of stealth cards. OK, so you have Sybil's Tongues and a Bowl. What if your GRANDPREY gets the Bowl - would you spend two actions to contest it, or would you keep your S'sT until you oust your prey? What about Channel 10 that will definitely stop this deck, as it can bleed mostly for 2 (six times per game for 3) - shall I contest it too? What about Charlton? Yes, I know that I won't see all these cards in every game, but they are good, and people will use them. Now let's talk about combat protection. This deck has almost none (just one Muddled and 3 Swalloweds). Future metagame is much more favorable for Rush decks, as intercept and Rush decks became stronger, and voting and stealth decks became weaker. And Rush decks don't fear intercept :) I know that I can use many different cards, but I don't see the way to make a consistent deck with them. That's why I think that KS decks are dead. Just a metagame shift, nothing unusual... And I really don't think that I can take a good KS deck and just replace a few cards to remain competitive. I'm going to build a new deck: + Use vampires with superior Obfuscate when possible (double Dolphin Black, Artemis and Korah and so on) + Use Forgotten Labyrinths and have enough undirected actions for them (Sybil's Tongues, The Calls, equipment, etc.) + Use Enchanted Marionette (good advice by Derek Ray) + Possibly use Creation Rites with Dementation and Madman's Quill to overload prey's Wakes, not his intercept. It would be a new deck. I see no good ways to rebuild the traditional KS decks, at least for now. Ector

[ quoted text not captured ] > Sure--light stealth occurs all the time, but looking at the Bowl, again, I > suspect that most decks (60%? 70%? I'm just making up numbers) have either > *only* +1 stealth availble or 3+ stealth as a reliable option. The +2 from > the Bowl, again, certainly won't hurt, but isn't, like, a magic bullet for > the decks that have exactly +2 stealth, as there aren't that many of those. Unfortunately, this is an oversimplistic approach. The whole idea of stealth decks lies in the hope that they won't be blocked, so they can have less combat cards in favor of stealth cards. And, alas, even Obfucate provides "reliable +3 stealth" only when you're playing undirected actions (having inherent +1 stealth), pack a lot of Lost in Crowds and Forgotten Labyrinths, and have superior Obfuscate. Then you can RELY on having +3 stealth for most actions. If you can provide +3 stealth just occasionally, then your minions are going to do nothing or get blocked. And if you want to do something,you'd be forced to include more and more combat cards... which makes the whole stealth strategy disadvantageous. If I were playing Protean, I'd exploited my combat abilities instead of stealth. Playing a lot of expensive stealth modifiers isn't very advantageous. Ector.

I think it was Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com>, who once wrote: > Sure--light stealth occurs all the time, but looking at the Bowl, again, I > suspect that most decks (60%? 70%? I'm just making up numbers) have either > *only* +1 stealth availble or 3+ stealth as a reliable option. The +2 from > the Bowl, again, certainly won't hurt, but isn't, like, a magic bullet for > the decks that have exactly +2 stealth, as there aren't that many of those. OMG!!!11! My Unlicensed Taxi Cab deck is totally hosed!! Ally and retainer decks are dead!! ;) Rogar

I think it was Ector <Ec...@mail.ru>, who once wrote: > I really consider "the Cheesequake" as the best KS deck, though I > cannot understand the need of Enhanced Senses :) > I have to note than only 5 of 12 vampires have superior Obfuscate. > Thus, most stealth cards will work as "+1 stealth", and you will need 3 > stealth cards to beat the Bowl for each action. Would you argue that > THIS deck is going to be completely stopped by the Bowl unless it > manage to contest/destroy it? And this is the best KS deck with a lot > of stealth cards. Correction: this is what you consider the best KS deck. There is no such thing. What works in one place, might totally fail in another. The Cheesequake was a good deck in a certain environment, sure. It won a tournament after all. But the environment changes with new cards. Let's assume you are right that this is currently the best KS deck, and let's assume that after the Anniversary Set becomes tournament legal, this deck will no longer work. That doesn't mean no KS deck will work. Deck quality of KS decks isn't statically linked or anything. Some KS decks become worse, others become better. A new 'best KS deck' will appear. Maybe it won't do as well as KS currently does, but in no way will KS be dead. > Now let's talk about combat protection. This deck has almost none (just > one Muddled and 3 Swalloweds). Future metagame is much more favorable > for Rush decks, as intercept and Rush decks became stronger, and voting > and stealth decks became weaker. And Rush decks don't fear intercept :) If rush decks become stronger, then, as they don't fear intercept, blocking decks should become less appealing to play. Thereby leaving you some room to play stealth bleed after all. :) [snip suggestions] > It would be a new deck. I see no good ways to rebuild the traditional > KS decks, at least for now. I'm not too keen on Forgotten Labyrinths, but otherwise your ideas sound pretty good. But how is it a new deck? If it's mostly Kindred Spirit bleed, then it's a KS deck, right? Not Cheesequake, but a variation on KS. New cards come, you adapt. It's part of the fun. Rogar

Rogar wrote: > I think it was Ector <Ec...@mail.ru>, who once wrote: > > I really consider "the Cheesequake" as the best KS deck, though I > > cannot understand the need of Enhanced Senses :) > Correction: this is what you consider the best KS deck. There is no such > thing. What works in one place, might totally fail in another. The > Cheesequake was a good deck in a certain environment, sure. It won a > tournament after all. But the environment changes with new cards. > > Let's assume you are right that this is currently the best KS deck, and > let's assume that after the Anniversary Set becomes tournament legal, > this deck will no longer work. That doesn't mean no KS deck will work. > Deck quality of KS decks isn't statically linked or anything. Some KS > decks become worse, others become better. A new 'best KS deck' will > appear. Maybe it won't do as well as KS currently does, but in no way > will KS be dead. This deck is undoubtfully best in terms of stealth, as it has 36 stealth modifiers total. Any other KS deck you may find in TWDA will have less. It even has no Eyes of Chaos!Adding more stealth is really impossible, but 36 cards are not enough against the Bowl or Channel 10. > > Now let's talk about combat protection. This deck has almost none (just > > one Muddled and 3 Swalloweds). Future metagame is much more favorable > > for Rush decks, as intercept and Rush decks became stronger, and voting > > and stealth decks became weaker. And Rush decks don't fear intercept :) > > If rush decks become stronger, then, as they don't fear intercept, blocking > decks should become less appealing to play. Thereby leaving you some room > to play stealth bleed after all. :) Maybe :) But, unfortunately, even Rush decks can use Channel 10 and Charlton, and some of them may also use the Bowl. > [snip suggestions] > > > It would be a new deck. I see no good ways to rebuild the traditional > > KS decks, at least for now. > > I'm not too keen on Forgotten Labyrinths, but otherwise your ideas sound > pretty good. But how is it a new deck? If it's mostly Kindred Spirit > bleed, then it's a KS deck, right? Not Cheesequake, but a variation on > KS. New cards come, you adapt. It's part of the fun. I will be forced to dump most Kindred Spirits to find room for the new cards. A deck with 12 or more KS can be called a KS deck, but the deck with 6 KS probably cannot :) Moreover, my deck will have different behaviour. It will start slowly, play The Calls, Sybil's Tongues, Creation Rites and eventually it will start bleeding. Kindred Spirits decks start bleeding from the very beginning. Ector

Ector wrote: >>I really consider "the Cheesequake" as the best KS deck, though I cannot understand the need of Enhanced Senses :)>> Why? In what different environments have you played it in? >>Would you argue that THIS deck is going to be completely stopped by the Bowl unless it manage to contest/destroy it?>> Not even remotely. That their prey has the Bowl is no different than, like, their prey having access to Enahnced Senses on a regular basis. Which might slow it down, some. But that was a possibility *before* the Bowl. >>OK, so you have Sybil's Tongues and a Bowl. What if your GRANDPREY gets the Bowl - would you spend two actions to contest it, or would you keep your S'sT until you oust your prey?>> I'd oust my prey and not care about my grandprey. When he is my prey, I have a VP and 6 more pool, then I worry about it. >> What about Channel 10 that will definitely stop this deck, as it can bleed mostly for 2 (six times per game for 3) - shall I contest it too? >> Channel 10 isn't doing anything new that someone with a dozen Enhanced Senses wasn't already doing. For free. >>Future metagame is much more favorable for Rush decks,>> You keep saying that. I don't think it means what you think it means. Really. How are Rush decks favored in the future? Really. Explain this? The banning of DU and KR makes it slightly more viable to play them, but I doubt anyone who wasn't playing one already wasn't not doing so because of table switching. Bowl and Channel X aren't going to make a stitch of difference to Rush decks. Really. >> as intercept and Rush decks became stronger, and voting and stealth decks became weaker.>> Intercept isn't any stronger. At all. Intercept decks could already intercept anything they wanted if they wanted to. Bowl will occasionally add an extra +1 intercept somewhere where it might not have already been. This is hardly earth shattering. >>That's why I think that KS decks are dead. Just a metagame shift, nothing unusual...>> Dude. Again. The crack. Kindred Spirits S+B is already the best S+B in the game. And it will continue to be the best S+B in the game. And S+B will continue to be a consistiently winning strategy. Really. >>+ Use vampires with superior Obfuscate when possible (double Dolphin Black, Artemis and Korah and so on) + Use Forgotten Labyrinths and have enough undirected actions for them (Sybil's Tongues, The Calls, equipment, etc.) + Use Enchanted Marionette (good advice by Derek Ray) + Possibly use Creation Rites with Dementation and Madman's Quill to overload prey's Wakes, not his intercept.>> All reasonable ideas. And the decks will still be very good S+B decks. 'Cause S+B decks win games all the time. And will continue to win games all the time. 'Cause the S+B deck is the most essentially effective, efficient deck strategy in the game. And always has been. And always will be. Bowl or no. Even a Bowl you Tongue for. -Peter

Ector wrote: > I really consider "the Cheesequake" as the best KS deck, though I > cannot understand the need of Enhanced Senses :) Perhaps they're there to block things like minions equiping with, I dunno, the Bowl of Convergence (Sport Bikes, Raven Spies, Raptors, ...)? You can block the bowl. Channel 10 can be SR'd. Not seeing a big problem with either. In fact, I think your clan has potentially the most to gain from both these cards. Your decks tend to run light on intercept, and shifting 1 ES to the bowl gives you a permanent +2 intercept... (Shift two and you can get +4 on any non-initial action.) I fear a !Malk with the bowl far more than, say, a Toreador. Damage I can prevent; coma is a problem (if I don't have a maneuver or dodge in my hand every single time a minion acts, I get to feel the cold embrace of torpor; if I try to rescue, again with the cold embrace). Obviously the Malk/!Malks are the continuing powerhouses of the eternal Jyhad. cmb

In message <1102663261.5...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: >If you mean "possible +3 stealth", it can be obtained, but you cannot >RELY on having this for each action, at least playing the current >Kindred Spirits decks. Thus, you can penetrate the Bowl sometimes, but >just sometimes... Sure you can. First of all, this isn't a defensive maneuver. It's not like someone comes rushing you and you're wondering "Crap, where's the Gemini's Mirror?" If you can't generate +3 stealth, and you're going to need it, don't bleed. Stealth and bleed really, really, really doesn't have to tap out every turn and bleed for fifteen. Again, in your environment, maybe it does. But in an environment where your grand-prey and grand-predator will rush you just because you're playing stealth-bleed, you're playing the wrong deck. But saving your actions, action modifiers etc. and playing them when they count is a good move in many situations. Secondly - have a lot of card cycling available, if you're having trouble. Dreams of the Sphinx is popular. Fragment of the Book of Nod isn't bad, though you'll have trouble defending it. Visit from the Capuchin? Elder Library? And make sure you're using your discard phase.[0] Just because you're stealth and bleed doesn't mean that hand- jam isn't something you just magically ignore. So include some. Thirdly, unless your prey has a LOT of pool gain (and are we now saying The Bowl, Channel 10 and a lot of pool gain), you can very probably afford to take your first action (impervious to Channel 10) and bleed him for, say, 3 to 5. Kindred Spirits plus Eyes of Chaos isn't bad. Throw in a Pentex Loves You? Maybe include Madman's Quill, for a little flexibility. But you can probably hit three anyway, and maybe more depending on your crypt selection (a little +1 bleed around) and other things e.g. inclusion of a Laptop. So now you use the first action to do three to five pool damage, and the second action to do something *only if you have the stealth in hand*. Which you can see. You're not in a bad position, you're still doing damage. Over three turns, that deck is still going to need to find nine to fifteen pool, or a fair bit of bounce, in order to handle you. Which is typically enough to stand a very good chance at ousting them. Oh, and on the turn you do oust them, your second action won't be impeded by Channel 10. They've been ousted, so no-one else has had a chance to play it yet (no turns in between). So bleed, bleed, bleed. The Bowl and Channel 10 just aren't there to hurt you that turn, so you can afford to slow down a little to start with. This also contributes to Not Looking Like The Threat. "Crap, I can only do one action this turn, the rest of my hand has jammed." This is an unquantifiable but often useful benefit. "Oh, he can only do one action and isn't about to roll his prey in one turn. Maybe I won't cross-table rush him." [0] A *very* naive rule of thumb I coined years ago was to the effect of: "The Methuselah who sees the most cards during a game has the best chance of winning." This is hopelessly naive, but is designed to make me remember that using your discard phase is good. If you can't give a good, positive reason for every card staying in your hand, maybe you should ditch one. (This reverses the typical "Is there anything I want to discard?" thought process I normally used.) [ quoted text not captured ]

Xian wrote: > Peter, you're obviously forgetting my All Ascendance - All the Time > deck's companion, 90 Lost Crowds on the Wall. > > Crypt is Agrippina x2, Tansu Bekir, Badr al-Budur, Count Ormonde, > Grendel the Worm-Eaten, Lithrac x3 (for extra Bakija Gambit-ness), > Olivia x2, Zebulon. Ya know, I just put together a OBF/dom Spying Missions deck that has almost the exact same crypt. And I also realized that among active decks, Lithrac is in, like, 6 of them or something. It is crazy... Ohh--and did you see how we made, like, the exact same Princess Bride joke in this here thread? Simultaneously? And I didn't even see that you did so already? Crazy. [ quoted text not captured ]

I think it was Ector <Ec...@mail.ru>, who once wrote: > > > I really consider "the Cheesequake" as the best KS deck, though > > > I cannot understand the need of Enhanced Senses :) > > This deck is undoubtfully best in terms of stealth, as it has 36 > stealth modifiers total. Any other KS deck you may find in TWDA will > have less. It even has no Eyes of Chaos!Adding more stealth is > really impossible, but 36 cards are not enough against the Bowl or > Channel 10. Two decks with exactly the same amount of stealth modifiers might perform very differently, depending on metagame. You can't say some deck is the best stealth deck because it has the most modifiers. You have to look at the type of modifiers used, and the obstacles it will most likely need to overcome. > Moreover, my deck will have different behaviour. It will start > slowly, play The Calls, Sybil's Tongues, Creation Rites and > eventually it will start bleeding. Kindred Spirits decks start > bleeding from the very beginning. So, this KS deck will work a little different. Big deal. Anyway, will you then admit that stealth bleed isn't dead, and !Malkavians are still viable? Rogar

On 10 Dec 2004 07:37:07 -0800, pd...@lightlink.com scrawled: [snip] >will be. Bowl or no. Even a Bowl you Tongue for. you just had to slip that in there, didn't you? :) salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

Rogar wrote: > I think it was Ector <Ec...@mail.ru>, who once wrote: > > > > I really consider "the Cheesequake" as the best KS deck, though > > > > I cannot understand the need of Enhanced Senses :) > > > > This deck is undoubtfully best in terms of stealth, as it has 36 > > stealth modifiers total. Any other KS deck you may find in TWDA will > > have less. It even has no Eyes of Chaos!Adding more stealth is > > really impossible, but 36 cards are not enough against the Bowl or > > Channel 10. > > Two decks with exactly the same amount of stealth modifiers might > perform very differently, depending on metagame. You can't say some > deck is the best stealth deck because it has the most modifiers. You > have to look at the type of modifiers used, and the obstacles it will > most likely need to overcome. Surely I did! As I said, the "Cheesequake" has the best available stealth in the maximum affordable numbers. I really don't see any way to increase stealth, except for Enchanted Marionette and, maybe, Anarch Railroad :) > > Moreover, my deck will have different behaviour. It will start > > slowly, play The Calls, Sybil's Tongues, Creation Rites and > > eventually it will start bleeding. Kindred Spirits decks start > > bleeding from the very beginning. > > So, this KS deck will work a little different. Big deal. Anyway, will > you then admit that stealth bleed isn't dead, and !Malkavians are > still viable? I will *STRUGGLE* to make at least somewhat-viable deck. It will definitely be much worse than KS. Will I admit that !Malks still viable? It depends on the word "viable". They still can get a few VPs, but they are unlikely to win a lot of tournaments anymore. Ector

pd...@lightlink.com wrote: > Ector wrote: > >>I really consider "the Cheesequake" as the best KS deck, though I > cannot understand the need of Enhanced Senses :)>> > > Why? In what different environments have you played it in? I called it "the best" just considering fight with the Bowl, as it has more stealth modifiers than any other KS deck I found in TWDA. > >>Would you argue that THIS deck is going to be completely stopped by > the Bowl unless it manage to contest/destroy it?>> > > Not even remotely. That their prey has the Bowl is no different than, > like, their prey having access to Enahnced Senses on a regular basis. > Which might slow it down, some. But that was a possibility *before* the > Bowl. Again. If a deck packed Enhanced Senses, it was going to be an intercept deck. S&B could be blocked by intercept decks, but those decks generally didn't have a lot of combat cards to torporize S&B vampires, as they had to pack a lot of intercept cards. Now, any deck with AUS can use the Bowl, not just an intercept deck, and it may have a LOT of combat cards to torporize any catched S&B vamp. > >>OK, so you have Sybil's Tongues and a Bowl. What if your GRANDPREY > gets > the Bowl - would you spend two actions to contest it, or would you keep > your S'sT until you oust your prey?>> > > I'd oust my prey and not care about my grandprey. When he is my prey, I > have a VP and 6 more pool, then I worry about it. As would I. So, you spend your Sibyl's Tongue on something else (or just discard it) and concentrate on your prey. You get one VP and THEN face the Bowl without any chances to get past it. BTW, your prey that you're trying to oust may bounce you to your grandrey with the Bowl, who will be wishing to "slow" you by torporizing your vamp. > >> What about Channel 10 that will definitely stop this deck, as it can > bleed mostly for 2 (six times per game for 3) - shall I contest it too? > >> > > Channel 10 isn't doing anything new that someone with a dozen Enhanced > Senses wasn't already doing. For free. What if one Enhansed Senses won't be enough? What if you just want to keep your Enh.S for the first action? What if you just have no Auspex??? > >>Future metagame is much more favorable for Rush decks,>> > > You keep saying that. I don't think it means what you think it means. > > Really. How are Rush decks favored in the future? Really. Explain this? > The banning of DU and KR makes it slightly more viable to play them, > but I doubt anyone who wasn't playing one already wasn't not doing so > because of table switching. Bowl and Channel X aren't going to make a > stitch of difference to Rush decks. Really. It would be a great theme for a new topic :) Banning of DU and KR means that any good Rush deck having a voting prey in most cases can easily get a VP unless it would be ousted by his predator first. Big vamps without serious combat are ideal for the Rush. And the Bowl, Channel 10 and Charlton just provide the Rush decks with a protection against stealth decks. Surely, the Bowl is useless if you have no Auspex, but the rest cards aren't. Imagine you're playing a POT rush deck (mayble CEL/POT, OBT/POT or something else). You have neither AUS nor DOM, so you cannot bounce bleeds. But you have Channel 10, so your S&B grandpredator bleeding your predator at +2 stealth should consider the fact you WILL block the bleed if it would be bounced. You may refuse to pound your grandpredator if you want him to press on your predator, or you may bash him if you want to protect your predator - it's up to you, but you aren't the defensiveless "bleed sink" anymore. Another example: imagine that you put the Fame on your prey's vamp, rushed and torporized him empty. Now your prey should look at your Channel 10 and understand that if he would resque his torporized vamp, he's going to hunt, but you will block the hunt with your Channel and torporize him again :) Charlton could easily do the same. Speaking about Charlton, it's obvious that his existence in your deck poses a threat to any deck that may wish to diablerize your vampires. Rush deck lives in combat, so its vamps can get into torpor (aggravated damage, Coma, etc. etc). And I really doubt that your voting prey that just torporized your Bianca with Ivory Bow would risk losing his high-capacity vampire to Charlton even if he has enough votes to prevent Blood Hunt. I never played a Rush deck, but if I would, I'd put KRCG News Radio, Channel 10 and Charlton. Maybe, several copies of some cards, especially Charltons. > >> as intercept and Rush decks became stronger, and voting and stealth > decks became weaker.>> > > Intercept isn't any stronger. At all. Intercept decks could already > intercept anything they wanted if they wanted to. Bowl will > occasionally add an extra +1 intercept somewhere where it might not > have already been. This is hardly earth shattering. They can do the same with lower number of cards. The free slots can be used to strenthen the deck in any way - add more intercept, or more combat, or more bleed. This obviously makes the intercept decks stronger. > >>That's why I think that KS decks are dead. Just a metagame shift, > nothing unusual...>> > > Dude. Again. The crack. Kindred Spirits S+B is already the best S+B in > the game. And it will continue to be the best S+B in the game. And S+B > will continue to be a consistiently winning strategy. Really. I already posted all arguments I could. As you already know that there isn't any crack here, I can't add anything else. > >>+ Use vampires with superior Obfuscate when possible (double Dolphin > Black, Artemis and Korah and so on) > + Use Forgotten Labyrinths and have enough undirected actions for them > (Sybil's Tongues, The Calls, equipment, etc.) > + Use Enchanted Marionette (good advice by Derek Ray) > + Possibly use Creation Rites with Dementation and Madman's Quill to > overload prey's Wakes, not his intercept.>> > > All reasonable ideas. And the decks will still be very good S+B decks. > 'Cause S+B decks win games all the time. And will continue to win games > all the time. 'Cause the S+B deck is the most essentially effective, > efficient deck strategy in the game. And always has been. And always > will be. Bowl or no. Even a Bowl you Tongue for. Sounds like a religion for me :) Now I can understand why people were so angry at my arguments - they consider me a heretic! :-) Well, I guess it's time to finish the discussion as the arguments were already stated. I'm sure that the discussion was useful for all participants, and I thank everybody, except for the people that keep thinking that insults can replace arguments. Ector

pd...@lightlink.com wrote: > Ector wrote: > >>I really consider "the Cheesequake" as the best KS deck, though I > cannot understand the need of Enhanced Senses :)>> > > Why? In what different environments have you played it in? I called it "the best" just considering fight with the Bowl, as it has more stealth modifiers than any other KS deck I found in TWDA. > >>Would you argue that THIS deck is going to be completely stopped by > the Bowl unless it manage to contest/destroy it?>> > > Not even remotely. That their prey has the Bowl is no different than, > like, their prey having access to Enahnced Senses on a regular basis. > Which might slow it down, some. But that was a possibility *before* the > Bowl. Again. If a deck packed Enhanced Senses, it was going to be an intercept deck. S&B could be blocked by intercept decks, but those decks generally didn't have a lot of combat cards to torporize S&B vampires, as they had to pack a lot of intercept cards. Now, any deck with AUS can use the Bowl, not just an intercept deck, and it may have a LOT of combat cards to torporize any catched S&B vamp. > >>OK, so you have Sybil's Tongues and a Bowl. What if your GRANDPREY > gets > the Bowl - would you spend two actions to contest it, or would you keep > your S'sT until you oust your prey?>> > > I'd oust my prey and not care about my grandprey. When he is my prey, I > have a VP and 6 more pool, then I worry about it. As would I. So, you spend your Sibyl's Tongue on something else (or just discard it) and concentrate on your prey. You get one VP and THEN face the Bowl without any chances to get past it. BTW, your prey that you're trying to oust may bounce you to your grandrey with the Bowl, who will be wishing to "slow" you by torporizing your vamp. > >> What about Channel 10 that will definitely stop this deck, as it can > bleed mostly for 2 (six times per game for 3) - shall I contest it too? > >> > > Channel 10 isn't doing anything new that someone with a dozen Enhanced > Senses wasn't already doing. For free. What if one Enhansed Senses won't be enough? What if you just want to keep your Enh.S for the first action? What if you just have no Auspex??? > >>Future metagame is much more favorable for Rush decks,>> > > You keep saying that. I don't think it means what you think it means. > > Really. How are Rush decks favored in the future? Really. Explain this? > The banning of DU and KR makes it slightly more viable to play them, > but I doubt anyone who wasn't playing one already wasn't not doing so > because of table switching. Bowl and Channel X aren't going to make a > stitch of difference to Rush decks. Really. It would be a great theme for a new topic :) [ quoted text not captured ] > >> as intercept and Rush decks became stronger, and voting and stealth > decks became weaker.>> > > Intercept isn't any stronger. At all. Intercept decks could already > intercept anything they wanted if they wanted to. Bowl will > occasionally add an extra +1 intercept somewhere where it might not > have already been. This is hardly earth shattering. They can do the same with lower number of cards. The free slots can be used to strenthen the deck in any way - add more intercept, or more combat, or more bleed. This obviously makes the intercept decks stronger. > >>That's why I think that KS decks are dead. Just a metagame shift, > nothing unusual...>> > > Dude. Again. The crack. Kindred Spirits S+B is already the best S+B in > the game. And it will continue to be the best S+B in the game. And S+B > will continue to be a consistiently winning strategy. Really. I already posted all arguments I could. As you already know that there isn't any crack here, I can't add anything else. > >>+ Use vampires with superior Obfuscate when possible (double Dolphin > Black, Artemis and Korah and so on) > + Use Forgotten Labyrinths and have enough undirected actions for them > (Sybil's Tongues, The Calls, equipment, etc.) > + Use Enchanted Marionette (good advice by Derek Ray) > + Possibly use Creation Rites with Dementation and Madman's Quill to > overload prey's Wakes, not his intercept.>> > > All reasonable ideas. And the decks will still be very good S+B decks. > 'Cause S+B decks win games all the time. And will continue to win games > all the time. 'Cause the S+B deck is the most essentially effective, > efficient deck strategy in the game. And always has been. And always > will be. Bowl or no. Even a Bowl you Tongue for. [ quoted text not captured ]

cmb...@purdue.edu wrote: > Ector wrote: > > I really consider "the Cheesequake" as the best KS deck, though I > > cannot understand the need of Enhanced Senses :) > > Perhaps they're there to block things like minions equiping with, I > dunno, the Bowl of Convergence (Sport Bikes, Raven Spies, Raptors, > ...)? I guess that the metagame was unfavorable for heavy combat decks, so KS deck can afford blocking somebody having alomost no combat abilities. Unfortunately, the future metagame is going to favor combat decks much more. > You can block the bowl. Channel 10 can be SR'd. Not seeing a big > problem with either. I'll need Wake + Telep.Misdir or Wake + Enhanced Sences to block the Bowl (unless I have Persia or Kite and Wake). And I have to survive the combat somehow. Surely I will try to block it if I can, but the chances are slim. And I cannot block superior Magic of the Smith or Vast Wealth equip action (Oh, I can, but it makes no sense). And I cannot block the Bowl of my grandprey. Surely, Channel 10 can be SR'd... and the Bowl can be DI'd, these cards can beat anything, but, again, how many will you put, and will you keep them in your hand forever? > In fact, I think your clan has potentially the most to gain from both > these cards. Your decks tend to run light on intercept, and shifting 1 > ES to the bowl gives you a permanent +2 intercept... (Shift two and you > can get +4 on any non-initial action.) I fear a !Malk with the bowl > far more than, say, a Toreador. Damage I can prevent; coma is a > problem (if I don't have a maneuver or dodge in my hand every single > time a minion acts, I get to feel the cold embrace of torpor; if I try > to rescue, again with the cold embrace). Incorporating some intercept abilities may be advantageous, but, unfortunately, !Malks have not enough combat cards to block regularly. But a bunch of Sybil's Tongues can help to get the Bowl and Ivory Bow on a vamp. I will definitely try to use this in the new deck. > Obviously the Malk/!Malks are the continuing powerhouses of the eternal > Jyhad. I'd be happy if they were :) Only time will tell the truth... Ector

In message <1102758966....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: >cmb...@purdue.edu wrote: >> You can block the bowl. Channel 10 can be SR'd. Not seeing a big >> problem with either. >I'll need Wake + Telep.Misdir or Wake + Enhanced Sences to block the >Bowl (unless I have Persia or Kite and Wake). *You* might need the wake. Not every stealth and bleed deck taps out every turn, though. You can also play Channel 10 yourself. Or any other intercept location. It's versatile, it lets you throw a small vampire in the way to stop (say) that Protect Thine Own - or at least try - and it contests other people's copies. Why are these basic points soaring straight over your head? Your way is not the only way to play. If the Bowl will kill your way to play, modify it. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ector wrote: > Banning of DU and KR means that any good Rush deck having a voting prey > in most cases can easily get a VP unless it would be ousted by his > predator first. That's a tautology. Any deck, with any set of cards banned or unbanned, with any given deck as its predator and any other given deck as its prey will, in every case[1], get a VP unless it would be ousted first. [1] barring time-out or Life Boon + withdrawal or other more esoteric (read: more cornercase than Life Boon + wd) VP manipulation. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Ector wrote: > Again. If a deck packed Enhanced Senses, it was going to be an > intercept deck. S&B could be blocked by intercept decks, but those > decks generally didn't have a lot of combat cards to torporize S&B > vampires, as they had to pack a lot of intercept cards. The Bowl is not going to suddenly let brutal combat decks that previously were not capable of stopping things then stop things. It is a single card that gives you +2 intercept, for blood. It isn't going to be that significant. Really. > Now, any deck with AUS can use the Bowl, not just an intercept deck, > and it may have a LOT of combat cards to torporize any catched S&B > vamp. Any deck with AUS? So apparently, you are envisioning mad killing combat decks with enough AUS to sideline a Bowl or 6, giving it unprecidented blocking abilities, over and above its already prodigious combat allotment? So you are talking about, umm, maybe The Tremere? So Kindred Spirits based Stealth and Bleed decks, probably the most effective S+B decks in the game, and likely one of the most overall effective strategies in the game, are DEAD, 'cause the occasional Tremere deck (keeping in mind that historically, the Tremere, well, [sorry Xian], kinda suck?) is going to have a minion with permanent +2 intercept? Ok then. Just checking. > As would I. So, you spend your Sibyl's Tongue on something else (or > just discard it) and concentrate on your prey. You get one VP and THEN > face the Bowl without any chances to get past it. Except for, ya know, the ones with the Elder Impersonation. Or the ones holding the Bowl and contesting it. Or the ones, ya know, watching the Anarch Troublemaker breaking it. > BTW, your prey that you're trying to oust may bounce you to your > grandrey with the Bowl, who will be wishing to "slow" you by > torporizing your vamp. Yeah, they might. But then they probably won't. 'Cause people don't usually randomly torporize vampires that aren't a direct threat to them. > What if one Enhansed Senses won't be enough? What if you just want to > keep your Enh.S for the first action? What if you just have no > Auspex??? Then you get +2 intercept for one action, and not the first action. Big freaking deal. > Banning of DU and KR means that any good Rush deck having a voting prey > in most cases can easily get a VP unless it would be ousted by his > predator first. Big vamps without serious combat are ideal for the > Rush. Sigh. Unless, ya know, that voting prey has combat defense. 'Cause, say, the Ventrue *never* have Obediance or Skin of Steel. Or Majesty. And if that prey doesn't have combat defense, it doesn't matter if they are votey or not. > And the Bowl, Channel 10 and Charlton just provide the Rush decks with > a protection against stealth decks. No they don't. Being Rush decks provide the Rush decks with a protection againt stealth decks already. There is *nothing* on a strategic level, that the Bowl or Channel X are going to do for a Rush deck to a Stealth and Bleed deck (remember, the ones that are being killed by the Bowl and Channel X, due to the increase in blocking abilities of Rush decks...) that they couldn't already do. I could wait around and try and block you with The Bowl ('cause I am a brutal combat killer with AUS and the Bowl...) and kill you. Or I could just save the effort, and Rush you and kill you. Where is the Bowl making a difference, except for, like, extra infrastructure? > Imagine you're playing a POT rush deck (mayble CEL/POT, OBT/POT or > something else). Ok. So imagining... > You have neither AUS nor DOM, so you cannot bounce > bleeds. But you have Channel 10, so your S&B grandpredator bleeding > your predator at +2 stealth should consider the fact you WILL block the > bleed if it would be bounced. Ok. Unless it is the first action of the turn. Or is at +3 stealth. Or is at zero stealth, in which case Channel X makes no difference at all. > You may refuse to pound your > grandpredator if you want him to press on your predator, or you may > bash him if you want to protect your predator - it's up to you, but you > aren't the defensiveless "bleed sink" anymore. No, no. Still just as much of a defenseless bleed sink. And still just as capable of killing your prey and predator ignoring the Channel X. > Another example: imagine that you put the Fame on your prey's vamp, > rushed and torporized him empty. Now your prey should look at your > Channel 10 and understand that if he would resque his torporized vamp, > he's going to hunt, but you will block the hunt with your Channel and > torporize him again :)? Why is he rescuing his Famous vampire in the first place? > I never played a Rush deck, Uh huh. Go on... > but if I would, I'd put KRCG News Radio, > Channel 10 and Charlton. Maybe, several copies of some cards, > especially Charltons. And then your Rush deck wouldn't be very good. Trust me. Really. > They can do the same with lower number of cards. The free slots can be > used to strenthen the deck in any way - add more intercept, or more > combat, or more bleed. This obviously makes the intercept decks > stronger. A single Bowl isn't going to make that much of a difference. Enough infrastructure to ensure a bowl is going to take up whatever space you would save by including it. > I already posted all arguments I could. As you already know that there > isn't any crack here, I can't add anything else. Yeah, I'm telling you. Really. The Bowl is a pretty good card. It'll help out some intercept decks. It might improve the light intercept options for some non intercept decks. But in a grand sense, these cards are not going to make S+B decks any less effective. Really. > Sounds like a religion for me :) Now I can understand why people were > so angry at my arguments - they consider me a heretic! :-) Nope. Just confused. > Well, I guess it's time to finish the discussion as the arguments were > already stated. I'm sure that the discussion was useful for all > participants, and I thank everybody, except for the people that keep > thinking that insults can replace arguments. I'd like to think I avoided that. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 11 Dec 2004 01:32:01 -0800, "Ector" <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote: >Well, I guess it's time to finish the discussion as the arguments were >already stated. I'm sure that the discussion was useful for all >participants, and I thank everybody, except for the people that keep >thinking that insults can replace arguments. > >Ector Your civil, I'll give you that. But you still insist keeping on hitting your head on the wall. Repeatedly.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:36:26 -0500, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >So you are talking about, umm, maybe The Tremere? So Kindred Spirits based >Stealth and Bleed decks, probably the most effective S+B decks in the game, >and likely one of the most overall effective strategies in the game, are >DEAD, 'cause the occasional Tremere deck (keeping in mind that historically, >the Tremere, well, [sorry Xian], kinda suck?) is going to have a minion with >permanent +2 intercept? Nah, the Tremere have sucked a lot for a long time. I've just been trying to get people to play them smarter. And, you know, win more. I hear that DOM is a good discipline. I think I also already challenged Ector to build a deck that would have both good intercept and good combat, but he hasn't taken me up on it. Well, specifically, it was an AUS/CEL/THA deck (that didn't use Goratrix). But I haven't seen anything. [Ector wrote] >> Imagine you're playing a POT rush deck (mayble CEL/POT, OBT/POT or >> something else). > >Ok. So imagining... Hahahahhahaha!!!!11!! Anyway. Xian They're the suckiest sucks that ever sucked.

In message <BDE07E29.1BB28%pd...@lightlink.com>, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> writes: >Ector wrote: >> Now, any deck with AUS can use the Bowl, not just an intercept deck, >> and it may have a LOT of combat cards to torporize any catched S&B >> vamp. > >Any deck with AUS? So apparently, you are envisioning mad killing combat >decks with enough AUS to sideline a Bowl or 6, giving it unprecidented >blocking abilities, over and above its already prodigious combat allotment? I could see, say, a Toreador (or !Toreador) deck having fun with it, with some reasonable combat on the side. e.g. a Presence bleed (or vote) deck, which had a flexible slice of guns, celerity/blur and Auspex intercept defence. Ditto a Tzimisce deck that - instead of being an intercept deck - decided to be bruise and bleed, with a slice of intercept backup. Of course, that's not quite the point as the Bowl is clearly intended to be a useful and playable card and these are the sort of decks it's presumably intended to work okay with, as well as being a boost to generic Auspex wall/intercept decks. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > I could see, say, a Toreador (or !Toreador) deck having fun with it, > with some reasonable combat on the side. e.g. a Presence bleed (or > vote) deck, which had a flexible slice of guns, celerity/blur and Auspex > intercept defence. Sure, but I don't think such decks are really scary, as combat goes, really, and they could already have +2 intercept without much effort. > Ditto a Tzimisce deck that - instead of being an > intercept deck - decided to be bruise and bleed, with a slice of > intercept backup. Maybe. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] It may *seem* a tautology, but there was a word "easily". Voting deck having large vampires is the best prey for the Rush deck. The only question is "would the Rush deck have enough time to oust the defenseless prey?" Channel 10 and Charlton should provide Rush deck some defense against his predator, so it's likely to have the time. Ector

Ector wrote: > LSJ wrote: > >>Ector wrote: >> >>>Banning of DU and KR means that any good Rush deck having a voting > > prey > >>>in most cases can easily get a VP unless it would be ousted by his >>>predator first. >> >>That's a tautology. >> >>Any deck, with any set of cards banned or unbanned, with any given >>deck as its predator and any other given deck as its prey will, in >>every case[1], get a VP unless it would be ousted first. >> >> >>[1] barring time-out or Life Boon + withdrawal or other more >>esoteric (read: more cornercase than Life Boon + wd) VP >>manipulation. >> >>-- >>LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. >>Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament > > calendar: > >>http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ > > It may *seem* a tautology, but there was a word "easily". Which changes nothing. Every deck will easily (inevitably, even) get a VP unless it is ousted first. [1]. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > > It may *seem* a tautology, but there was a word "easily". > > Which changes nothing. > Every deck will easily (inevitably, even) get a VP unless > it is ousted first. [1]. OK, I guess I should say that Channel 10 and Charlton can increase the time needed to oust Rush player, and provide the Rush player enough time to oust his prey :) Moreover, the Channel can be used to block prey's undirected action and thus can decrease ousting time for the Rush :) Sorry for my mistake. Ector