The OLD restricted list

I'm not sure if anyone remembers this, but for a brief period back in original Jyhad we had a restricted list. You could only have TWO (2) copies of the following cards in your deck... Parity Shift KRC Conservative Agitation Domain Challenge Anicilla Empowerment Form of Mist Earth Meld Majesty I think it would be interesting to discuss if a new restricted list is needed, what cards would you restrict, and what the limit would be. Something old school and interesting to discuss..... Matt

Matt Latham wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] IMHO, I think that no card should be limited, which would indicate that it is overpowered and, therefore, unbalanced (and would need rewording.) Large amounts of a sigle given card in your deck do not grant victory, because there are always means to undermine a deck's strategy. In addition, the fact of including many copies of a few cards in your deck makes it extremely weak (usually). If you want to build a viable deck, you will have to make it quite balanced (i.e., able to oust your prey, and capable of confronting bleeding, rush, and political decks.) Greetings, Damnans

On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:56:36 GMT, no...@nowhere.com (Jack Crow) wrote: >On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:21:15 GMT, Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote: > >>Matt Latham wrote: >> >>> I think it would be interesting to discuss if a new restricted list is >>> needed, what cards would you restrict, and what the limit would be. >> >>IMHO, I think that no card should be limited, which would >>indicate that it is overpowered and, therefore, unbalanced >>(and would need rewording.) >> >>Large amounts of a sigle given card in your deck do not >>grant victory, because there are always means to undermine >>a deck's strategy. > >While it is extremely unlikely that WotC would rewrite a card, they >would certainly take "Resricted" suggestions under advisement. Since WotC has nothing to do with the game anymore, I would imagine that making such suggestions to them would be a total and complete waste of time. As far as WHITE WOLF taking such a suggestion under advisement, I believe they've pretty much let the V:EKN handle all issues related to tournaments, tournament rules, etc. The approach towards unbalanced cards in the past has simply been to create errata (ie, fix the problem), instead of creating an artificial "restricted list". Such lists are leftover from the era of Magic, where a single card could change the entire game. Such lists are not relevant to, or appropriate for V:TES, where no single card by itself has such a sweeping effect. Some wag out there will undoubtedly say "but what about 5th Tradition?" Well, first, 5th Tradition by itself has a minimal effect. It must be combined with Minion Tap to create heavy pool gain. And since it is merely a +1 stealth action, it usually must be combined with additional stealth cards to avoid someone intercepting the action. And then you need to add combat defense so that people don't just pro-actively beat up your Princes. And then you need to add a way to oust your prey. This is all possible, but it requires a lot of moving parts and different cards, and demonstrates quite effectively that no SINGLE CARD has any sort of major effect on the game. -- Derek

On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:21:15 GMT, Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] While it is extremely unlikely that WotC would rewrite a card, they [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:56:36 GMT, no...@nowhere.com (Jack Crow) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] WotC STILL prints the cards and makes the decisions on reprints (WW can only ask for them). People often ignore this fact.

"Jack Crow" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message [clip] > >While it is extremely unlikely that WotC would rewrite a card, they > >would certainly take "Resricted" suggestions under advisement. > > WotC STILL prints the cards and makes the decisions on reprints (WW > can only ask for them). People often ignore this fact. This is incorrect. WotC only licenses the game-mechanic (as I understand it) to WW. WW prints and selectects reprints, etc. WW does it all now. -- Robert Goudie Chairman, V:EKN rob...@vtesinla.org

"Damnans" <damna...@ono.com> wrote in message news:3B31F560...@ono.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Left at least one card off list: Freak Drive Reason for restricting those cards was that no one at WotC cared enough to come up with better rules for handling vote pushing and repeat actions, which is what the cards on the list allowed. Now that you can only pitch one PA per vote and tournament play is under the NRA rule these sorts of restrictions are unnecessary. Any card so unbalancing as to need such control should be banned anyway if appropriate errata cannot be made. Just take a look at RTI and the monocle for such cards. Ken

On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:47:07 GMT, no...@nowhere.com (Jack Crow) wrote: >>While it is extremely unlikely that WotC would rewrite a card, they >>would certainly take "Resricted" suggestions under advisement. > >WotC STILL prints the cards and makes the decisions on reprints (WW >can only ask for them). People often ignore this fact. Wrong. I don't know where you get your information from, but you (and they) are sadly incorrect. White Wolf purchased the license BACK from WotC some time ago. -- Derek

"Matt Latham" <sv...@chartermi.net> ha scritto nel messaggio news:978c2422.01062...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I don't think it's necessary to have a restricted list. Instead, just to have the Anarch Revolt as Unique Master, or not comulable (like army of rats) but NOT as it is now; so far,imho, it's the only card that unbalance the game, in a way or in another. Just my little thought Emiliano, vekn Prince of Rome

In message <31f4jtsr1su10l3l5...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes >I don't know where you get your information from, but you (and they) >are sadly incorrect. White Wolf purchased the license BACK from WotC >some time ago. Actually, the licence (for the V:tM world etc) expired - it was sold for 7 years, as I recall. Now WW licence all the V:TES stuff (mechanics etc.) from WotC, paying them a royalty for that, instead of WotC paying them a royalty for use of the WoD. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D "You reinstall Dial-Up Networking. The Elf screams and becomes EBD690ECD7A1F an icon. *** CONGRATULATIONS! *** You completed the BT Internet B457CA213D7E6 Helpdesk training course in 15 out of a possible 9000 moves." 68C3695D623D5D

Tetragrammaton wrote: > Instead, just to have the Anarch Revolt as Unique Master, or not comulable > (like army of rats) > but NOT as it is now; so far,imho, it's the only card that unbalance the > game, in a way or in another. Any argument to support that opinion? -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > Tetragrammaton wrote: > > Instead, just to have the Anarch Revolt as Unique Master, or not comulable > > (like army of rats) > > but NOT as it is now; so far,imho, it's the only card that unbalance the > > game, in a way or in another. > > Any argument to support that opinion? I do not really think so, because Anarch Revolt is a card that affects each Methuselah in the game. It can also be easily burnt because you will usually get the suport of the entire table during the referendum required to burn it. In addition, a Methuselah using several Anarch Revolts will usually oust others randomly (who are not precisely his or her prey). Greetings, Damnans

"Damnans" <damna...@ono.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:3B32EF7A...@ono.com... [ quoted text not captured ] That's the reason why it unblances the game, as i said, in a way or in another. A player get the chanche to kill at random. Isn't that enough? Best Emiliano, v:ekn Prince of Rome > Greetings, > Damnans >

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:3B329A0D...@white-wolf.com... > Tetragrammaton wrote: > > Instead, just to have the Anarch Revolt as Unique Master, or not comulable > > (like army of rats) > > but NOT as it is now; so far,imho, it's the only card that unbalance the > > game, in a way or in another. > > Any argument to support that opinion? Well, with a couple of AR, a player simply put many pool loss (for free) in play. Sure, he' going to hurt himself as well, but he get to many chanche to kill at random at the table. This, imho, unblances the game. Best Emiliano, v:ekn Prince of Rome > [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] What if it did 2 or 3 to the controller?

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3B329A0D...@white-wolf.com>... > Tetragrammaton wrote: > > Instead, just to have the Anarch Revolt as Unique Master, or not comulable > > (like army of rats) > > but NOT as it is now; so far,imho, it's the only card that unbalance the > > game, in a way or in another. > > Any argument to support that opinion? Well, there have been some long and angry posts in the past to suggest that an Anarch Revolt deck is amoungst the most loathed in the game. AR penalises all players indescriminantly and jeapordises the predator prey order of the game. I have myself seen several games where the Anarch Revolt player becomes the focus of the whole table. However, it is a valid strategy. Even if Anarch Revolts were neutered, there would still be Smiling Jack and Antideluvian Awakenings (and to a lesser extent, Judgement: Camerilla Segregation) to irritate people. The kind of player who drops crap like this has to be pretty sure of being able to handle the heat, and typically the kind of clan that plays this deck is Tzimisce or other Intercept heavy combat decks. Yes, Anarch Revolt is irritating, and it can destabilise a game, but this allows for motivated and challenging play. Variety is, after all, the spice of life... DH

[snip] Nah, I don't think that there should be cards that should be restricted. If any these cards would also be a problem in those numbers. Therefore those would be banned for tournament play before they would be restricted. Plus the fact that most of the cards in that list have such easy counter measures that they are absolutely no problem at all. I do have one comment on a card that is IMO slightly too powerfull at the moment. That card being Protect Thine Own. I realize it takes a Justicar/IC memnber to play, but the way I see it: if you plan on using the card and thus J/IC you are sure as hell using poolmanagement. The reason why I think this card is a bit too strong is that with the new expansions (SW and FN) a lot of players will play non-cammie. In itself this poses no problem, however with PtO it does. I myself have won a couple of games off late using PtO-reinforcements. I was/am very charmed with Reinforcements 'remove from game' clause. I think that this same clause could help out with PtO. I am not advocating errata/rulings. I am merely checking out if other people see this as a problem too? Tim Eijpe

Tetragrammaton wrote: > > "Damnans" <damna...@ono.com> ha scritto nel messaggio > news:3B32EF7A...@ono.com... > > In addition, a Methuselah using several Anarch Revolts will > > usually oust others randomly (who are not precisely his > > or her prey). > > > > That's the reason why it unblances the game, as i said, in a way or in > another. > A player get the chanche to kill at random. > Isn't that enough? That's not usually considered a reason to ban the card, no. Usually, it's because the card is too easy to use as a means of winning the game. If a card truly killed at random, players wouldn't bother using it because that does nothing to help them win the game. Fred

On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:51:09 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >In message <31f4jtsr1su10l3l5...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray ><lor...@yahoo.com> writes >>I don't know where you get your information from, but you (and they) >>are sadly incorrect. White Wolf purchased the license BACK from WotC >>some time ago. > >Actually, the licence (for the V:tM world etc) expired - it was sold for >7 years, as I recall. > >Now WW licence all the V:TES stuff (mechanics etc.) from WotC, paying >them a royalty for that, instead of WotC paying them a royalty for use >of the WoD. Basically. (as Robert also posted). The mechanics are WotC's, but all the "substance" of the game itself is solely White Wolf's. I mean, all you need to do is read the inside cover of the Final Nights rulebook (top line) to see THAT. =) -- Derek

hamdamcwa wrote: > > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3B329A0D...@white-wolf.com>... > > Tetragrammaton wrote: > > > Instead, just to have the Anarch Revolt as Unique Master, or not comulable > > > (like army of rats) > > > but NOT as it is now; so far,imho, it's the only card that unbalance the > > > game, in a way or in another. > > > > Any argument to support that opinion? > > Well, there have been some long and angry posts in the past to suggest > that an Anarch Revolt deck is amoungst the most loathed in the game. > AR penalises all players indescriminantly and jeapordises the predator > prey order of the game. I have myself seen several games where the > Anarch Revolt player becomes the focus of the whole table. > > However, it is a valid strategy. A valid strategy? I've seen a number of tournaments won with Anarch Revolt decks. It destroys any decks that are even a bit slow to get started and combined with short term pool management, moderate bleeding, and some bleed bounce, usually produced the first oust before it ousts itself. It doesn't totally sweep as often because a lot of times someone on the other side of the table will take advantage of the pressure your Anarchs are creating. But it produces table wins and victory points at a pretty satisfying rate. Fred

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3B329A0D...@white-wolf.com... > Tetragrammaton wrote: > > Instead, just to have the Anarch Revolt as Unique Master, or not comulable > > (like army of rats) > > but NOT as it is now; so far,imho, it's the only card that unbalance the > > game, in a way or in another. > > Any argument to support that opinion? I have successfully abused this card enough to know it's power. However, I don't like errata, limitations, or hell... anything that makes this game harder to teach. Having said that, were a change needed for Anarch Revolt, perhaps the 'burn vote' could be called to get rid of ALL Anarch Revolts, rather than just the one? This would keep it powerful but also force the AR-player to pack some vote defense. Just a thought... Cheers, WES

Wes wrote: > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > news:3B329A0D...@white-wolf.com... > > Tetragrammaton wrote: > > > Instead, just to have the Anarch Revolt as Unique Master, or not > comulable > > > (like army of rats) > > > but NOT as it is now; so far,imho, it's the only card that unbalance the > > > game, in a way or in another. > > > > Any argument to support that opinion? > > I have successfully abused this card enough to know it's power. However, I > don't like errata, limitations, or hell... anything that makes this game > harder to teach. > > Having said that, were a change needed for Anarch Revolt, perhaps the 'burn > vote' could be called to get rid of ALL Anarch Revolts, rather than just the > one? Anarch Revolts are not broken. Most of the wins I've seen them produce could have been stopped a bit of simple cooperation amongst the opposing players. When/if players ever learn to gang together and vote them off the table right away, such decks will lose their power. Under those circumstances, no banning or errata is called for. Fred

sv...@chartermi.net (Matt Latham) wrote: >I think it would be interesting to discuss if a new restricted list is >needed, what cards would you restrict, and what the limit would be. * Freak Drive. IMO the only broken card left. The only reason you don't see it constantly is because it's so rare. * I haven't yet been a victim of a ToGP deck, but I can see how it could be a contender for restriction/banishing/change. * 5th Tradition. I fully expect this card to be errata'ed (sorry, 'changed', for you touchy people) when White Wolf releases the new basic set. 'Use on another vampire' or (preferably) 'Use on a younger vampire' would both work. * Form of Mist is a bit borderline - it's an excessively overpowered card (cf Shadow Body or the new Ravnos card), but only truly comes into its own in Pro/Dom decks. * Before Banishment was changed, it might have qualified. Not any more, though. In the first four cases, erra^h^h^h^h *changing* the cards in the nest Camarilla release is preferable to a restricted list. Suggestions: * Increase cost of Freak Drive to 2. * 5th Trad - see above. * Form of Mist - not usable on a bleeding action. * And something or the other on ToGP. ----------------------------------------------------------- Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se> "Knowledge is power. Power corrupts."

"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote > > Anarch Revolts are not broken. Most of the wins I've seen them produce could > have been stopped a bit of simple cooperation amongst the opposing players. > When/if players ever learn to gang together and vote them off the table right > away, such decks will lose their power. Under those circumstances, no banning > or errata is called for. I don't think it is a broken card at all. In fact, any deck that relies on this card will make me very happy to sit behind (though not in front of). It's powerful, but not over-powered. I merely suggest that idea as an alternative to consider should this discussion go that way, and people collectively decide it needs 'fixing'. I'm generally content *not* to alter text of cards after they are produced... too confusing. Cheers, WES

Johan Lundstrom wrote: > * Freak Drive. IMO the only broken card left. The only reason you > don't see it constantly is because it's so rare. Actually, I think it has more to do with the fact that fortitude vampires just don't tend to make for powerful decks in other ways, even if they can Freak Drive all over the place. Maybe Ventrue voters might be the exception. But also, the 1 blood cost of the Freak Drive and the no repeat action rule tend to limit what you can do with the card. (Freak Drive is one of the reasons the NRA rule was created, by the way.) It's a good card, no doubt. But certainly not broken. Fred

I always try to have one Anarch Revolt deck built. Sometimes you just want a quicker game, and AR sure as heck speeds the game up. After playing many, many games with my AR deck, I have to disagree with the people who think it ousts people "at random". AR goes clockwise around the table; it hits your prey before your grandprey, and it hits everyone else before it hits you. Every AR you have on the table increases the odds that the players will be ousted clockwise, starting with your prey. As an illustration, imagine that you could get thirty ARs out on your first turn. Obviously you would oust everyone in a clockwise fashion immediately. Now imagine that you have 11 ARs out on your fifth turn (possible, with the Parthenon and Anson/Rumors). You've lost 16 pool from your own ARs at this point, so your deck had better have good defenses and good management. After his next untap, your prey will have lost a total of 27 pool, so unless he's spent very few (2!) transfers (unlikely) or has excellent blood management (more likely), he's out, followed by your next prey, followed by your NEXT prey . . . is this random? No. It's elegant. Naturally, real-world decks probably can't get 11 ARs out in 5 turns and still defend against bleeds, votes and/or rushes. That's why I pack Life Boons, Kindred Restructures and other fudge factors in my AR decks. And that means I have to figure out good card ratios, pack vote support, discard intelligently and so on. And since I play the deck a lot, the local metagame includes a lot of defenses against my ARs. (The best defense, obviously, is massive bloat, but there are others.) AR is a great card that encourages smart deck building and increases the variety of the game. Don't start shouting "Restrict it! Ban it!" just because your local players are still figuring out how to use it effectively.

On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:37:47 GMT, jo...@algonet.se (Johan Lundstrom) wrote: >sv...@chartermi.net (Matt Latham) wrote: > >>I think it would be interesting to discuss if a new restricted list is >>needed, what cards would you restrict, and what the limit would be. > >* Freak Drive. IMO the only broken card left. The only reason you >don't see it constantly is because it's so rare. Not necessary. I've been playing with David "Freakdriver" Tatu for many years now, and his 20-Freak Drive decks are not especially more effective than any of his other decks. The NRA rules take care of any abuses quite readily. >* I haven't yet been a victim of a ToGP deck, but I can see how it >could be a contender for restriction/banishing/change. Always has been a contender. So far people have been remarkably creative and flexible in going forth and beating hell out of the Justicar when he comes out, negating the possibility of ToGP. =) >* 5th Tradition. I fully expect this card to be errata'ed (sorry, >'changed', for you touchy people) when White Wolf releases the new >basic set. 'Use on another vampire' or (preferably) 'Use on a younger >vampire' would both work. *both* would work even better. >* Form of Mist is a bit borderline - it's an excessively overpowered >card (cf Shadow Body or the new Ravnos card), but only truly comes >into its own in Pro/Dom decks. Its only *real* difference from the multitude of other "S:CE, continue" cards is the +1 stealth it adds. Protean is still the Gangrel "toy", though, and without an easily accessible bleed discipline, Form of Mist is just not going to ever be broken. If someone started printing a bunch of PRO/dom vampires at 3, 4, and 5 capacity, that might need to get revisited. >* Before Banishment was changed, it might have qualified. Not any >more, though. weenie Banishment decks: STILL HURTING FROM THE KICK IN THE NUTS. Makes me so happy. I hate seeing Igo Banish anyone. -- Derek

emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.01062...@posting.google.com>... > I always try to have one Anarch Revolt deck built. Sometimes you just > want a quicker game, and AR sure as heck speeds the game up. > <snip> > Naturally, real-world decks probably can't get 11 ARs out in 5 turns > and still defend against bleeds, votes and/or rushes. That's why I > pack Life Boons, Kindred Restructures and other fudge factors in my AR > decks. And that means I have to figure out good card ratios, pack vote > support, discard intelligently and so on. And since I play the deck a > lot, the local metagame includes a lot of defenses against my ARs. > (The best defense, obviously, is massive bloat, but there are others.) > > AR is a great card that encourages smart deck building and increases > the variety of the game. Don't start shouting "Restrict it! Ban it!" > just because your local players are still figuring out how to use it > effectively. I certianly like it, if you want to trade anarch decks, I'm interested in seeing how you pull it off, orcao...@NOSPAMhotmail.com if you want to Cameron

"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:3B336788...@netcom.com... > Wes wrote: snip > > > > I have successfully abused this card enough to know it's power. However, I > > don't like errata, limitations, or hell... anything that makes this game > > harder to teach. > > > > Having said that, were a change needed for Anarch Revolt, perhaps the 'burn > > vote' could be called to get rid of ALL Anarch Revolts, rather than just the > > one? > > Anarch Revolts are not broken. Most of the wins I've seen them produce could > have been stopped a bit of simple cooperation amongst the opposing players. Come on, a single card that forces ALL the other players at the table to gang up to get rid of it IS a card that unbalance the game. And with delaiyng tactics around, you know, players must cooperate very well (and not a "bit") to clean all the AR at the table. And, anyway, it's a master phase that cost nothing (except the master p. itself) for a unavoidable pool loss to your prey. Sure it adds fun and spice up play (as was previously noted). Sure, it hurts anyone. But, again, is unbalancing imho. That's all. Best Emiliano, v:ekn Prince of Rome [ quoted text not captured ]

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:lu27jt819il8t3pbs...@4ax.com... > Johan wrote: > >* 5th Tradition. I fully expect this card to be errata'ed (sorry, > >'changed', for you touchy people) when White Wolf releases the new > >basic set. 'Use on another vampire' or (preferably) 'Use on a younger > >vampire' would both work. > > *both* would work even better. (Just nitpicking here, because I've been agreeing whole-heartedly with Derek recently, and wish that his damned yahoo email was working...anyway, though I'd [nit]pick on Derek for once.) I believe that the second phrase would necessarily imply the first. I can't think of how you could chose a younger vampire that was the same vampire as the one performing the action. Pretty good change, actually...though I suppose we'll just see. > >* Form of Mist is a bit borderline - it's an excessively overpowered > >card (cf Shadow Body or the new Ravnos card), but only truly comes > >into its own in Pro/Dom decks. > > Its only *real* difference from the multitude of other "S:CE, > continue" cards is the +1 stealth it adds. Protean is still the > Gangrel "toy", though, and without an easily accessible bleed > discipline, Form of Mist is just not going to ever be broken. Much like any other S:CE or stealth card, once you figure it out, stop blocking and start bouncing, or do whatever. I don't think it's ever liable to be really broken. > weenie Banishment decks: STILL HURTING FROM THE KICK IN THE NUTS. Heh. > Makes me so happy. I hate seeing Igo Banish anyone. Oh...that's so sad. Now he's even *hungrier*! Xian

"Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message news: 75bdf7ed.01062...@posting.google.com... > I always try to have one Anarch Revolt deck built. Sometimes you just > want a quicker game, and AR sure as heck speeds the game up. > > After playing many, many games with my AR deck, I have to disagree > with the people who think it ousts people "at random". AR goes > clockwise around the table; it hits your prey before your grandprey, > and it hits everyone else before it hits you. Every AR you have on the > table increases the odds that the players will be ousted clockwise, > starting with your prey. (snip) > AR is a great card that encourages smart deck building and increases > the variety of the game. Don't start shouting "Restrict it! Ban it!" > just because your local players are still figuring out how to use it > effectively. totally agree on this ! it's easy to make a bad constructed anarch revolt deck that does about nothing except pissing off everyone. Making a really intelligent one, with cards like "life boon", "treachery", "delayed tactics" or "political backlashes" is another thing. Just consider that well built Anarch decks are powerful tool of destruction, very similar to strong rush decks. The effectiveness of the tool depends heavily on the guy who waves it. Poor player will kill cross table, good player will make alliance, hit the good target with the good timing. In brief : 1 strong anarch deck = strong rush deck; capable of ousting prey and no one else by using various cards and making good decisions. 2 only good players can play strong anarch/rush decks, beginners will f*** it up anyway. 3 only good players can handle those anarch/rush decks by making strong alliances and right choices. Anarch is a good way to check one's overall "jyhad ability" =) Never ban /limit this card, for the sake of the game ! reyda

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >jo...@algonet.se (Johan Lundstrom) wrote: >>* Freak Drive. IMO the only broken card left. The only reason you >>don't see it constantly is because it's so rare. > >Not necessary. I've been playing with David "Freakdriver" Tatu for >many years now, and his 20-Freak Drive decks are not especially more >effective than any of his other decks. The NRA rules take care of any >abuses quite readily. I don't know. Bleed/FD/SUP Govern/FD/Vote/FD/5th/FD seems pretty scary to me, and not at all unlikely... >>* I haven't yet been a victim of a ToGP deck, but I can see how it >>could be a contender for restriction/banishing/change. > >Always has been a contender. So far people have been remarkably >creative and flexible in going forth and beating hell out of the >Justicar when he comes out, negating the possibility of ToGP. =) Well, that's kind of like saying you could always deflect Return to Innocence. :-/ >>* 5th Tradition. I fully expect this card to be errata'ed (sorry, >>'changed', for you touchy people) when White Wolf releases the new >>basic set. 'Use on another vampire' or (preferably) 'Use on a younger >>vampire' would both work. > >*both* would work even better. Well, since no-one is younger than themself, the second should be enough... :-) >>* Form of Mist is a bit borderline - it's an excessively overpowered >>card (cf Shadow Body or the new Ravnos card), but only truly comes >>into its own in Pro/Dom decks. > >Its only *real* difference from the multitude of other "S:CE, >continue" cards is the +1 stealth it adds. Protean is still the >Gangrel "toy", though, and without an easily accessible bleed >discipline, Form of Mist is just not going to ever be broken. Dominate isn't *that* hard to get. >If someone started printing a bunch of PRO/dom vampires at 3, 4, and 5 >capacity, that might need to get revisited. Pro/Dom is really scary - hard to block, hard to combat, plenty of bleed defence and lots of defensive capability, including deflects. One of the nastiest two-discipline combinations in the game, IMO. And I agree, this game does *not* need a 4-cap vamp with PRO/Dom <shudder>. >>* Before Banishment was changed, it might have qualified. Not any >>more, though. > >weenie Banishment decks: STILL HURTING FROM THE KICK IN THE NUTS. > >Makes me so happy. I hate seeing Igo Banish anyone. I've done a lot of that myself, but I agree - it was overpowered before. It would have been monstrous with Free States Rant. In addition, I think Succubus Club should be banned from tournament play. [ quoted text not captured ]

Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I don't think it's a majpr problem from the Gangrel (except Wynn's: Innate Rush/FD/Haven Uncovered/FD/Ambush/FD/Bums/FD. That tends to hurt.) But there are several clans that can put up a decent amount of fortitude for Freak Drives. Nosferatu and Setites are especially scary since they also have Obfuscate. The cost from of freak drive can often be dealt with by making the last action a 5th Trad (especially in Nosferatu Princes Decks). [ quoted text not captured ]

Tetragrammaton wrote: > > "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> ha scritto nel messaggio > news:3B336788...@netcom.com... > > Wes wrote: > snip > > > > > I have successfully abused this card enough to know it's power. However, > > > I don't like errata, limitations, or hell... anything that makes this game > > > harder to teach. > > > > > > Having said that, were a change needed for Anarch Revolt, perhaps the > > > 'burn vote' could be called to get rid of ALL Anarch Revolts, rather than just > > > the one? > > > > Anarch Revolts are not broken. Most of the wins I've seen them produce > > could have been stopped a bit of simple cooperation amongst the opposing > > players. > > Come on, a single card that forces ALL the other players at the table > to gang up to get rid of it IS a card that unbalance the game. No it doesn't. You sound as if you feel this is a difficult thing to do. It is not difficult. The other players simply have to want to do it. As long as they want to, it usually only requires that one player spend an action to call the vote. The other players don't block him and all vote, "yes". Very simple. This is not unbalanced. Not even slightly. > And with delaiyng tactics around, you know, players must cooperate very well > (and not a "bit") to clean all the AR at the table. You must spend one Delaying Tactics for each other player's turn to stop them from calling the vote. You can not tell me that it is easy to build a deck that does that and still survives its own Anarch Revolts. Other cards have to be in the deck. I stand my ground. All it takes to defeat an Anarch Revolt deck is a bit of cooperation amongst the other players. > And, anyway, it's a master phase that cost nothing (except the master p. > itself) That's a significant cost. A master phase action is precious. More precious, certainly, than the action of a single vampire it takes to remove the Anarch Revolt. Fred

> > In addition, I think Succubus Club should be banned from tournament > play. > > Why? Matt

"Tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<wGOY6.8031$8R5.1...@news.infostrada.it>... [ quoted text not captured ] I am far from being a fan of Anarch revolt but I don't think it is a broken card. If you look at the cards that have been baned you can split them into 3 groups: Ante cards, Silly Cards and Too Powerfull cards. Ante cards are of cours baned because ante is not used at tournaments. Silly Cards like Madness of the Bard and Monocle of Clarity have a too dubious an effect to allow them in tournament play and Rowan ring is the only card in the game that uses paralyse so they baned it to so people wouldn't have to bother við that rule. As for the too powerfull cards: This group contains only 1 card and that is Return to Innocence. The only card ever baned in vtes becaus of power. And I don't thinks AR gets any where close to this card. Then there is the question if it should be errated. I don't think so. It is not a card that almost every one plays with becaus it makes it so easy for you to winn the game. If you want to use it effectivly you have to build a deck around it. Which I would say was proof enough of it not being broken. Also the reason I think some people want to ban or errat it is becaus they hate the card not because it is too good. Also I think that when a AR deck is on your taple you should accept the situation and try to take advantege of this all around pool loss rather than waste valuable resources trying to prevent it. It is a seriously anoying card but it is not broken Haukur [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:47:07 GMT, no...@nowhere.com (Jack Crow) wrote: > >WotC STILL prints the cards and makes the decisions on reprints (WW >can only ask for them). People often ignore this fact. Where in the hell did you get this morsel of misinformation?

"Tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> writes: > Well, with a couple of AR, a player simply put many pool loss (for free) in > play. > Sure, he' going to hurt himself as well, but he get to many chanche to kill > at random at the table. Kill at random? Not if you combine it with Ridiculous Pool Gain(tm) and Life Boons. Make sure your pool gain is greater than your pool loss. Life Boon metuselahs who get ousted in the wrong order - thus removing the randomness. Never bleed - this is optional, but gives you +2 fun when you can watch your prey cringe, while his hand jams with useless Deflections and Telepathic Counters. (Muahhahhahaaa...) ...OR die a miserable death, if you sit next to a deck that intercepts all your pool gain. Serves you right, for playing trick decks. %-) HG -- hg | The brain does process all sensation, Crowley said. If the brain @iki | is fully awake and conscious of what it is doing, why on earth .fi | should it treat any sensation as a less than orgasmic experience? | - Robert Anton Wilson, "Masks of the Illuminati"

Johan Lundstrom wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Form of Mist has always pegged high on my personal queso-meter. Those other S:CE that continue actions aren't so bad because there's no stealth increase. How about counting FoM as an action modifier when it is used to continue an action? That way, a Methuselah could not play more than one over the course of her minion's action, right? [ quoted text not captured ]

Chris Holm <hchr...@qwest.net> wrote: >Form of Mist has always pegged high on my personal queso-meter. Those >other S:CE that continue actions aren't so bad because there's no stealth >increase. How about counting FoM as an action modifier when it is used to >continue an action? That way, a Methuselah could not play more than one >over the course of her minion's action, right? If you're not pulling my leg, you might be pleased to learn that that's exactly the existing errata... :-) The card rocks even with this errata. [ quoted text not captured ]

Matt Latham <sv...@chartermi.net> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] >Why? Because it facilitates collusion and gives an advantage to people who know each other. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Because they allow truly cooperative alliances to be unstoppable. Actually, any long-term alliances at all are rather powerful and therefore problematic for the game. There seems little incentive for players to double-cross one another - which is the normal check on alliance-building in multiplayer games. Throw in Succubus Club and a predator/prey pair that have agreed to cooperate and split the table can just be awesome. The predator half takes sufficient pool and possibly whatever blocking minion(s) he needs to insure he isn't ousted this turn. He gives the prey the rest of the minions and any cards the prey needs to do terrible things to the prey's prey. It's very difficult to do anything to stop. Fred

Hmm.. I never thought of that. In all my years I've neer been to a tournament where I made such a deal with my Predator, or where such a deal was offered. I remember winning a tourney some time ago with an Assimite deck that used Succubus Clubs to "hire out" to other Methuselahs to remove vamps around the table. Once I had them convinced that I was some loon who didn't care about bleeding my prey I started ousting people. Without the Club (and hence the copious amounts of pool I gained from my "johns") I'd not have lived long enough to put the other players to sleep. But I see your point. Not that I say ban it, but that your concern is well thought out and valid. Matt

> ...OR die a miserable death, if you sit next to a deck that intercepts > all your pool gain. Serves you right, for playing trick decks. %-) > > I saw a deck like this actually win a tourney. Influence 2 two-caps with dom for deflection and wake/ Delaying Tactics. In the beginning no-one wants to vote the Anarchists out of the game, it speeds up the game & damages their prey as wel. If the table finally rallies against you, simply point out that if someone votes an Anarch away their own prey will get less damage than they 've just gotten. Jeroen

<...> > >>* Before Banishment was changed, it might have qualified. Not any > >>more, though. > > > >weenie Banishment decks: STILL HURTING FROM THE KICK IN THE NUTS. > > > >Makes me so happy. I hate seeing Igo Banish anyone. > > I've done a lot of that myself, but I agree - it was overpowered > before. It would have been monstrous with Free States Rant. Oh no! Igo playing with FSR! The horror! The Angst! first of all, Igo's not Independent. second, he would force the other vamp to burn 1 blood. > In addition, I think Succubus Club should be banned from tournament > play. I'd suggest (and did this before) that the text should dissallow trading away the Club itself. Jeroen

In article <3B345530...@qwest.net>, Chris Holm <hchr...@qwest.net> wrote: >Form of Mist has always pegged high on my personal queso-meter. Those >other S:CE that continue actions aren't so bad because there's no stealth >increase. How about counting FoM as an action modifier when it is used to >continue an action? That way, a Methuselah could not play more than one >over the course of her minion's action, right? Um. That's how it's worked since June 23, 1998. You're right, it does go a long way towards reining it in. gomi -- Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby

jeroen rombouts <jeroen....@pandora.be> wrote: >Oh no! Igo playing with FSR! The horror! The Angst! > >first of all, Igo's not Independent. >second, he would force the other vamp to burn 1 blood. Look, if you could use a big vamp to call the FSR and a small one (Igo) to call the ensuing Banishment, it's certainly nastier than having to have two big vamps, one for FSR, one for Banishment. [ quoted text not captured ]

> >Oh no! Igo playing with FSR! The horror! The Angst! > > > >first of all, Igo's not Independent. > >second, he would force the other vamp to burn 1 blood. > > Look, if you could use a big vamp to call the FSR and a small one > (Igo) to call the ensuing Banishment, it's certainly nastier than > having to have two big vamps, one for FSR, one for Banishment. But you are no longer playing a weenie banishment deck. That was what my remark was all about.

jeroen rombouts <jeroen....@pandora.be> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Huh? I never claimed I did. [ quoted text not captured ]

orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron) wrote in message news:<a1e26d99.01062...@posting.google.com>... > I certianly like it, if you want to trade anarch decks, I'm interested > in seeing how you pull it off, orcao...@NOSPAMhotmail.com if you > want to I don't mind posting mine publicly after getting skunked so badly while using it at the non-tournament this weekend. (People brought Final Nights cards. Oops!) So here's the deck: The Anarchs Are Revolting! (They Stink on Ice!) Crypt (12 total, 6 vamps, 5.17 av, 30 high, 14 low) 2 x Emerson Bridges (Ven, 8, DOM FOR PRE) 2 x Sir Walter Nash (Ven, 7, DOM FOR PRE) 2 x Jazz Wentworth (Ven, 5, dom for PRE) 2 x Rajan Rishi (Ven, 5, DOM for PRE) 2 x Victoria Prentiss (Ven, 4, dom PRE) 2 x Gideon Fontaine (Ven, 3, PRE) Library : Masters (18) 1 x Antediluvian Awakening 11 x Anarch Revolt 1 x Hostile Takeover 1 x Life Boon 1 x Parthenon 2 x Sudden Reversal 1 x Ventrue Headquarters Library : Minion (60) 2 x Kindred Restructure 2 x Parity Shift 1 x Praxis Seizure: Berlin 1 x Praxis Seizure: Geneva 1 x Rumors of Gehenna 1 x Ventrue Justicar 6 x Bewitching Oration 8 x Voter Captivation 4 x Enchant Kindred 4 x Govern the Unaligned 2 x Rapid Healing 2 x Thanks for the Donation 3 x Freak Drive 5 x Wake with Evening's Freshness 5 x Deflection 3 x Elder Kindred Network Majesty x 8 Skin of Steel x 4 I play with two major variations of this deck. One is a fast-moving version which dumps PS:B, 1 x TFTD, 4 x SoS, 1 x RH and 4 x GtU; it's better suited to low combat environments. Another adds 3 x Restoration, 3 x Day Op, 3 x Force of Will, 3 x Conditioning for a nasty combo surprise.