Interesting Timer - Opinions?

http://www.123oy.com/g8/Game%20Timer.html What do y'all think of the usefulness of this timer for VTES games? Just curious. Thanks. Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 01:04:35 -0800, "Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> scrawled: >http://www.123oy.com/g8/Game%20Timer.html >What do y'all think of the usefulness of this timer for VTES games? Just >curious. Thanks. useful? i think so. more useful than any other thing that has a count-down timer? i can't see it. all i can see the need for in vtes is something that can count down from 2hrs+, and a beep at 10mins, 5mins, 1min, 5sec, 4,3,2,1 would be icing on the cake. sadly, my digital watch only counts down from a max of 1hr. :( salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

Kevin M. wrote: > http://www.123oy.com/g8/Game%20Timer.html > What do y'all think of the usefulness of this timer for VTES games? Just > curious. Thanks. I have one. Due to the fact that one's turn is not one's own, and passing the timer around per 1.6.1.6 is intractable, I'd say it isn't all that useful for V:TES. It is much more suited to games like History of the World, where one's turn is one's own. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> I have one. Due to the fact that one's turn is not one's own, and passing > the timer around per 1.6.1.6 is intractable, I'd say it isn't all that > useful for V:TES. LSJ, Couldn't each player be a table, and then you could run each table's time seperately? It doesn't have to pass around. [ quoted text not captured ]

David Wilson wrote: >>I have one. Due to the fact that one's turn is not one's own, and passing >>the timer around per 1.6.1.6 is intractable, I'd say it isn't all that >>useful for V:TES. > > > LSJ, > Couldn't each player be a table, and then you could run each table's time > seperately? It doesn't have to pass around. ? No. Per 1.6.1.6. [ quoted text not captured ]

> No. Per 1.6.1.6. I have no idea what you are talking about. I am referring to a Judge using this device, not players. What does 1.6.1.6 refer to ? In the tournament rules for 2004 as per WW website 1.6. Publishing Event Information White Wolf, Inc. reserves the right to publish event information such as the contents of a player's deck as well as transcripts or video reproductions of any sanctioned tournament. The tournament organizer is also permitted to publish event information ?? Per the Rule Book 1.6.1.6 Sequencing. If two or more players want to play a card or effect, the acting Methuselah plays first. At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect. so where is your reference from?

"David Wilson" <do...@umich.edu> wrote in message news:<j3tBb.196$o32....@news.itd.umich.edu>... [ quoted text not captured ] He's referring to the rulebook. The problem is, that such a device is set up to time each player's turn-time, like in chess, where one player has a set amount of time to play the game in. But in Jyhad, every time the acting player plays a card, every other player on the table has a chance to respond. So imagine this: A: "My turn begins." *hits the timer* "I untap. I play a Blood Doll.." B: "Hang on, give me the timer, I want to counter that with a Sudden Reversal.." C: "Wait, I might want to Sudden your Sudden, but I need a minute to think about it and negotiate with you. Whose time counts down while I make my decision?" Either the clock has to pass back and forth between players every time a card is played (and that can get horribly tedious during a stealth-vs-intercept scenario), or decks that do a lot of things during other players turns (wall decks, Madness Network decks, etc) and very little during their own get a gross advantage that's clearly not the intent of players having seperate time-to-play in. -John Flournoy

John, Thank you for the clarification. My suggestion for the timer(was): There are 8 different players times, instead of calling it a player, call it a table. Then use the different times to be the time of each table, this will obviously not work if each players times is stopped while one is running, but if you can run them all simultaneously, then you can pause just one table while a ruling is made, hence a useful idea in spite of 1.6.1.6

[ quoted text not captured ] If all the timers time the same thing (and therefore show the same time remaining), why use the G8 Game Timer at all? A simple stopwatch would do. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:18:02 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >David Wilson wrote: >> John, >> >> Thank you for the clarification. >> >> My suggestion for the timer(was): >> >> There are 8 different players times, instead of calling it a player, call it >> a table. Then use the different times to be the time of each table, this >> will obviously not work if each players times is stopped while one is >> running, but if you can run them all simultaneously, then you can pause just >> one table while a ruling is made, hence a useful idea in spite of 1.6.1.6 > >If all the timers time the same thing (and therefore show the same time >remaining), why use the G8 Game Timer at all? A simple stopwatch would do. I think he's asking: can the G8 run as 8 separate stopwatches simultaneously? so you'd start all 8 stopwatches at the same time. but as each individual table needs pausing, you could pause just that table's stopwatch. all within just one device that the judge can hold, without needing 8 stopwatches with labels hanging around your neck. because, like, just because one table gets a little extra time doesn't mean they all do, right? [ quoted text not captured ]

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote > I think he's asking: can the G8 run as 8 separate stopwatches > simultaneously? you want the judges to definetly run away from judging ?

salem wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:18:02 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> > scrawled: > > >>David Wilson wrote: >> >>>John, >>> >>>Thank you for the clarification. >>> >>>My suggestion for the timer(was): >>> >>>There are 8 different players times, instead of calling it a player, call it >>>a table. Then use the different times to be the time of each table, this >>>will obviously not work if each players times is stopped while one is >>>running, but if you can run them all simultaneously, then you can pause just >>>one table while a ruling is made, hence a useful idea in spite of 1.6.1.6 >> >>If all the timers time the same thing (and therefore show the same time >>remaining), why use the G8 Game Timer at all? A simple stopwatch would do. > > > I think he's asking: can the G8 run as 8 separate stopwatches > simultaneously? 1) It cannot. 2) Even if it can, what's the point? > so you'd start all 8 stopwatches at the same time. but as each > individual table needs pausing, you could pause just that table's > stopwatch. all within just one device that the judge can hold, without > needing 8 stopwatches with labels hanging around your neck. No. He's using "table" to mean "player", as far as I can tell. That is, keep track of a player's time the same way that judges now keep track of each table's time. > because, like, just because one table gets a little extra time doesn't > mean they all do, right? Absolutely. That's a different topic. The solution to that is normally to record the extra time for each table (on paper), or use a stopwatch for each table. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 07:54:21 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: [on the G8] >>>>There are 8 different players times, instead of calling it ,[each player on the G8], > a player, call it >>>>a table. [because it will be used to time a separate table]. > Then use the different times to be the time of each table, this >>>>will obviously not work if each players times ['players' on the G8] > is stopped while one is >>>>running, [For example, a chess timer does this] > but if you can run them all simultaneously, then you can pause just >>>>one table while a ruling is made, hence a useful idea in spite of 1.6.1.6 is how i interpreted the post. intending the G8 to be used as 8 separate stopwatches (if it could). >> I think he's asking: can the G8 run as 8 separate stopwatches >> simultaneously? > >1) It cannot. >2) Even if it can, what's the point? so you have one device hanging around your next instead of potentially 8? So you don't have to buy 8 stopwatches, only 1 G8? >No. He's using "table" to mean "player", as far as I can tell. >That is, keep track of a player's time the same way that judges >now keep track of each table's time. see above for my interpretation of what he wrote, all horridly formatted to strain the eyes. >> because, like, just because one table gets a little extra time doesn't >> mean they all do, right? > >Absolutely. That's a different topic. The solution to that is normally >to record the extra time for each table (on paper), or use a stopwatch >for each table. Well, i normally just announce 'you guys get an extra 5 mins', and then when i yell out 'time' at the end of the round, i make sure i'm next to the table with extra time and say 'except you guys, you get that extra 5 mins'. I've never had to give extra time to more than one table (one of the up sides to small tournaments, i guess. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 01:04:35 -0800, Kevin M. wrote: >http://www.123oy.com/g8/Game%20Timer.html >What do y'all think of the usefulness of this timer for VTES games? Just >curious. Thanks. I could have given you a demo at Gencon SoCal as I had one with me. Next time perhaps. I've been using the G8 for Shadowfist events. The turns in that game are similar to those in VTES - the turn belongs mainly to one player but other players do things too. You can stop the secondary players from consuming the current player's time by using the pause button but the interaction would still be too choppy to manage time strictly in the manner of chess. My policy is therefore the reverse of chess which has a draconian penalty for exceeding your ration of time - losing the game if you don't make a time control. I prefer the carrot to the stick and reward the fastest player on each table with a small prize like a booster. This mostly avoids bad-tempered arguments about accurate timing while still providing an incentive to play quickly. This has had a major effect upon the play of my girlfriend who is usually a very deliberate player - thinking through her moves quite carefully and being maddeningly oblivious to requests to speed up. When the prize for being quick was instituted, she suddenly became the fastest player there - greed is good! The timer is the only one which will support multiplayer games and is now official equipement for tournament games like Scrabble. It is well constructed and reasonably cheap - especially if you buy a case of 8. I recommend it. The main issue in VTES wouldn't be timing the ordinary play of the game but would be handling the deal-making and discussion which can often take many minutes. You could stop the clock for these by using the pause button but that would be ducking the issue. My opinion is still that such discussions are illegal unless sanctioned by a game effect such as the Succubus Club. But, if you allow them, maybe you could make them manageable by saying that only the current player is allowed to talk at length - the other players may only make brief responses such as "Yes" and "No". Then it would be fair for the discussion time to be charged to the current player. Andrew