LSJ: Banishment vs Call the Great Beast

We're in a tournament right now and we've got a situation that I couldn't find a specific ruling on. Vampire A (12 cap) calls Banishment and targets the Great Beast (9 cap) with 6 blood. Vote passes. Can the counters on the Great Beast, now in the uncontrolled region, be transferred off and/or pool influenced to the Great Beast. Does it count as a 9 capacity Vampire while in the uncontrolled region? The closest I could find was a ruling in relation to Undue Influence on a Web of Knives Recruit, which doesn't count, so I have ruled that the counters cannot be moved in either direction as transfers and the Great Beast card is now a library card that has no capacity. Embrace and Creation Rites have been ruled as having a capacity in the uncontrolled region but they also have a blood drop counter on the bottom right of their card. Call the Great Beast Cardtype: Action Clan: Baali Cost: 1 blood +1 stealth action. Put this card on the acting Baali and put X ritual counters on it, where X is the capacity of this Baali. This Baali may put a ritual counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. When this card has more than 10 ritual counters, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines. This card becomes a unique clanless independent infernal vampire with 9 capacity, 4 strength and 3 bleed. The Great Beast has the chosen three Disciplines at superior. Move 9 blood to him from the blood bank. The Great Beast can enter combat with any ready minion controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action and can prevent 1 damage each combat. Banishment Cardtype: Political Action Choose a younger ready vampire. Successful referendum means that the chosen vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (breaking any temporary control effects). The vampire is uncontrolled. Any cards and counters on that vampire stay with him or her (but they are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).

Never mind, for some reason my search couldn't find a ruling initially, but I have found it now.

SteveHarris wrote: > Never mind, for some reason my search couldn't find a ruling > initially, but I have found it now. If you post that you've found a ruling, especially if it is not obvious to find, please post the ruling as well (or a link to the ruling). http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/22e73355bea42a94

[ quoted text not captured ] > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/22e7... Question: What happens when a Progeny (or an Embrace or a Creation Rite) is Banished? Answer: It is placed in the uncontrolled region and continues to be treated as a vampire of capacity 1 (plus any capacity from skill cards or other master cards, of course), and it can be influenced as normal. Hey! Isn't the cards on vampires out of play and does not count? Like Cadett and Reunion of Kamut? A Banished Embrace would just be a 1 cap vamp in uncontrolled region

[ quoted text not captured ] Yeah. But that ruling came later. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/6029edb7384bced4

[ quoted text not captured ] > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/6029edb7384bced4 Captain Obvious feels the need to make a comment here: If The Becoming is banished, it comes back out for free no matter what, as a zero-capacity vampire (but keeps its blood when it comes back out, not to exceed its skillcard-based capacity at that time). There's gotta be a trick somewhere there... :)

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: >Captain Obvious feels the need to make a comment here: > >If The Becoming is banished, it comes back out for free no matter what, >as a zero-capacity vampire (but keeps its blood when it comes back out, not to >exceed its skillcard-based capacity at that time). >There's gotta be a trick somewhere there... :) Interesting. By explicit ruling, vampires have a minimum capacity of one. This is normally never an issue for The Becoming because it always has discipline cards on it (or burns). http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/22e73355bea42a94?pli=1 Note that this ruling over-turned card text that allowed the existence of a zero-capacity vampire (Purity of the Beast in a freakish, slow motion accident - see that thread). Is the Becoming in the uncontrolled region a one capacity vampire (by that ruling) or a zero-capacity vampire (assuming that that ruling can be overturned by the Golden Rule of Cards)? If the golden rule of cards can apply and make a zero-capacity vampire in the uncontrolled region, is there a reason the Becoming's other card text doesn't activate? The discipline cards are out of play, so it has none on it, so could it burn? My head hurts. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

James Coupe wrote: > Interesting. By explicit ruling, vampires have a minimum capacity of > one. This is normally never an issue for The Becoming because it always > has discipline cards on it (or burns). > Is the Becoming in the uncontrolled region a one capacity vampire (by > that ruling) or a zero-capacity vampire (assuming that that ruling can > be overturned by the Golden Rule of Cards)? If the golden rule of cards > can apply and make a zero-capacity vampire in the uncontrolled region, > is there a reason the Becoming's other card text doesn't activate? The > discipline cards are out of play, so it has none on it, so could it > burn? The minimum effective capacity of a vampire is one. Even in the uncontrolled region. Becoming's innate capacity is zero. With a capacity-increasing Discipline card, it becomes 1. Without, it would still effectively be one (but, assuming the Becoming's card text is in effect -- i.e., the Becoming is controlled, then it would burn for the lack of capacity-increasing Discipline cards).

On Mar 29, 1:20 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > The minimum effective capacity of a vampire is one. Even in the uncontrolled > region. > > Becoming's innate capacity is zero. With a capacity-increasing Discipline card, > it becomes 1. Without, it would still effectively be one (but, assuming the > Becoming's card text is in effect -- i.e., the Becoming is controlled, then it > would burn for the lack of capacity-increasing Discipline cards). Just want to check if I got that right. If I somehow get a Becoming in my uncontrolled region, it would count as a 1 capacity vampire (regardless how many discipline masters it has) for the purpose of coming into play (and recieving Groomings etc). Well, that point is quite clear. But, are you saying that the text on The Becoming would come into effect and burn it before the discipline masters on it came into play? That'd make it impossible to get a Becoming back into play (longer than a brief visit) once banished/realityd/etc?

henrik wrote: > On Mar 29, 1:20 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> The minimum effective capacity of a vampire is one. Even in the uncontrolled >> region. >> >> Becoming's innate capacity is zero. With a capacity-increasing Discipline card, >> it becomes 1. Without, it would still effectively be one (but, assuming the >> Becoming's card text is in effect -- i.e., the Becoming is controlled, then it >> would burn for the lack of capacity-increasing Discipline cards). > > But, are you saying that the text on The Becoming would come into > effect and burn it before the discipline masters on it came into > play? No. When the Becoming is not in play, its card text is not in effect.

[ quoted text not captured ] So to try summarise all of this... A Becoming in play is a 0-cap vampire with discipline cards on it to increase its capacity to 1 or greater. If it is sent to the uncontrolled region (Banishment, Descent into Darkness, etc) then it is treated as a 1-cap vampire and all of its cardtext is inactive (including the burn text). Therefore you need to have at least 1 blood counter on it for it to return to the ready region. When it returns to the ready region it gains all of its discipline cards and retains all of the blood on it unless there are more blood counters than capacity.

Juggernaut1981: [ quoted text not captured ] But after "Memory's Fading Glimpse", Becoming will never be able to leave uncontrolled region and stay alive?

IC-O...@yandex.ru wrote: > But after "Memory's Fading Glimpse", Becoming will never be able to > leave uncontrolled region and stay alive? Memory's Fading Glimpse will send uncontrolled-region Becoming to the ash heap. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/103df88dbd93b4ee