[Q]Fragment of Book of Nod and tapping

Can I tap the Fragment -anytime- I choose, or only during my own turn ? If it can be used 'anytime', can I use it in response to a direct action ? If someone wants to take control of the Fragment, can I tap it first ? If I tap it first, I suppose it comes under his control tapped ?

>Can I tap the Fragment -anytime- I choose, or only during my own turn ? Card text does not specify a particular timing so you can tap it anytime you want. >If it can be used 'anytime', can I use it in response to a direct action ? Yes. >If someone wants to take control of the Fragment, can I tap it first ? Yes. >If I >tap it first, I suppose it comes under his control tapped ? Yes. Oftentimes, that's a disincentive for stealing it. You can steal it but you'll have to wait till next turn to use it (if you still control it by then). Halcyan 2

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20021227060053...@mb-fm.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I believe the only time you may _NOT_ tap a Fragment is "in response" to another Meth playing one during their Master phase. It immediately becomes contested so you can't use it anymore.

>I believe the only time you may _NOT_ tap a Fragment is "in response" >to another Meth playing one during their Master phase. It immediately >becomes contested so you can't use it anymore. Agreed. This isn't like "that other game" where there's a stack, so you can't interrupt things (outside of SR, DI, RT, and a few more specific cancelling cards). Similarly, you can't tap it "in response" to something that will oust you immediately (hypothetically) and you can't tap it "in response" on the hope that you'll draw a card that will let you cancel what was just played. By then it's too late. So if your telepathic predator plays a Malkavian Game or Prank (and knows what you will do), it's too late to tap the Fragment hoping to draw something that will save you. And don't forget that in many situations, you can't just "interrupt" the other thing happening since effects are instanteneous(sp). In regards to the thing that will oust you, say you have one pool and bleed your prey successfully. If you decline to do anything and then your prey plays superior Burnt Offerings to oust you, there's no opportunity to tap the Fragment "in response" on the hopes of drawing a Spying Mission (to make your bleed not successful). A general rule for this case (like contesting the Fragment) and also more commonly seen with Heidelburg is to occasionally offer the possibility of using it. So...does anybody want to use any special effects. That way the other player can't claim you tried to pre-empt them -- you gave them their opportunity. Also, it can be like a Jedi mind trick. Does that mean he has an Arson and that I should tap the Heidelburg or is he just trying to make me use it? =) Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021228012804...@mb-mr.aol.com... > >I believe the only time you may _NOT_ tap a Fragment is "in response" > >to another Meth playing one during their Master phase. It immediately > >becomes contested so you can't use it anymore. > > Agreed. This isn't like "that other game" where there's a stack, so you can't > interrupt things (outside of SR, DI, RT, and a few more specific cancelling > cards). Similarly, you can't tap it "in response" to something that will oust > you immediately (hypothetically) and you can't tap it "in response" on the hope > that you'll draw a card that will let you cancel what was just played. By then > it's too late. So if your telepathic predator plays a Malkavian Game or Prank > (and knows what you will do), it's too late to tap the Fragment hoping to draw > something that will save you. And don't forget that in many situations, you > can't just "interrupt" the other thing happening since effects are > instanteneous(sp). This is not correct. Heidelberg Castle had a specific "cannot be used during an action" ruling on it for *years* (since 1996) which was made into card text with the Final Nights reprint. Fragment (and Barrens, for that matter) has NEVER had this "cannot be used during an action" ruling upon it, and LSJ has stated several times that Fragment (and Barrens) CAN be used during the action (http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=966kgn%24ati%241%40nnrp1.deja.com & http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=84qjl0%24e64%241%40nnrp1.deja.com). Neither Fragment's nor Barren's CE card were updated to include this ruling, which should make you even more sure that only Heidelberg Castle has the "cannot be used during an action" prohibition. Note that the Heidelberg Castle ruling specifically states that "all effects in V:TES are instantaneous except for actions and certain combat effects. [LSJ]" This is not in the rulebook, but that's probably because it's self-evident. ;) > > Halcyan 2 Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

> This is not correct. Does this mean that I *can* use the Fragment and tap it in response to an action ? As a reaction ? Even if, granted, the card that it gets me cannot get me out of the predicament I'm in ...

"intGod" <int...@DO.NOT.AND.I.REPEAT.NOT.SPAM.ME.sentientbeings.com> wrote in message news:3e0e2874$0$136$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl... [ quoted text not captured ] According to the rulings in those links in my last message, yes, you can. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Does this mean that I *can* use the Fragment and tap it in response to an > action ? As a reaction ? Even if, granted, the card that it gets me cannot > get me out of the predicament I'm in ... According to the rulings in those links in my last message, yes, you can. --- Does that mean that, in accordance to those rules, I can use a reaction card if I draw one with the Fragment ? Given: - Predator attempts to bleed me. - I 'react' by tapping the Fragment. Does the action SUCCEED after I tap the fragment ? Or can I play the 'deflection' I draw with the Fragment to still deflect the bleed attempt ? I'm sorry if this type of questions/discussions have been here before, but I'm new and couldn't find anything in the faq (or I'm a bad reader ...)

intGod wrote: ::: This is not correct. :: :: Does this mean that I *can* use the Fragment and tap it in :: response to an action ? As a reaction ? Even if, granted, the card :: that it gets me cannot get me out of the predicament I'm in ... To tap the fragment when an action is announced, draw a Rewind time and play it cancel the action is perfectly legal.

intGod wrote: :: Does that mean that, in accordance to those rules, I can use a :: reaction card if I draw one with the Fragment ? Yes. Tapping the fragment has nothing to do with the block / decline to block step. Nor it makes you pass to the action resolution. You can tap it after you failed to block a bleed and draw a wake + deflection. It's perfectly legal.

>>=20 >> Agreed. This isn't like "that other game" where there's a stack, so = >you can't >> interrupt things (outside of SR, DI, RT, and a few more specific = >cancelling >> cards). Similarly, you can't tap it "in response" to something that = >will oust >> you immediately (hypothetically) and you can't tap it "in response" on = >the hope >> that you'll draw a card that will let you cancel what was just played. = >By then >> it's too late. So if your telepathic predator plays a Malkavian Game = >or Prank >> (and knows what you will do), it's too late to tap the Fragment hoping = >to draw >> something that will save you. And don't forget that in many = >situations, you >> can't just "interrupt" the other thing happening since effects are >> instanteneous(sp). > >This is not correct. > >Heidelberg Castle had a specific "cannot be used during an action" = >ruling on it for *years* (since 1996) which was made into card text with = >the Final Nights reprint. > >Fragment (and Barrens, for that matter) has NEVER had this "cannot be = >used during an action" ruling upon it, and LSJ has stated several times = >that Fragment (and Barrens) CAN be used during the action = >(http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=3D966kgn%24ati%241%40nnrp1.deja.co= >m & = >http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=3D84qjl0%24e64%241%40nnrp1.deja.com= >). Neither Fragment's nor Barren's CE card were updated to include this = >ruling, which should make you even more sure that only Heidelberg Castle = >has the "cannot be used during an action" prohibition. Um...I know that. I was referring to: #1. Heidelberg's use during an action #2. Fragment's use when it is being contested or you are being ousted I never said that Fragment couldn't be used during an action (it can). I was referring to some of the cornercase scenarios that Mr. Kuta and I were discussing. Perhaps you simply misunderstood me. Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021228181006...@mb-fy.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] You must admit, it is easy to see how I could misunderstand you, as some of what you were saying was untrue. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021228181006...@mb-fy.aol.com... > I was referring to: > > #1. Heidelberg's use during an action > #2. Fragment's use when it is being contested or you are being ousted I think in most cases you *can* use Fragment when someone is playing a card that would oust you (immediately on resolution, not like a bleed card where there would obviously be plenty of time for Fragment). Not when it becomes contested, no, unless someone Suddens the contesting Fragment, but if someone plays Malkavian Game and you suspect you might be ousted, it *is* legal to tap Fragment in response (in the "as a card is played" time window), because you could draw and play a Sudden. At least, this is what I believe to be the case based on previous "as a card is played" discussions. LSJ, can you confirm this? thanks, Josh cornered in the case

[ quoted text not captured ] Confirmed. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/