This is a repost (and I am always happy to repost...), but it explains all
questions about Immortal Grapple which have come up again, so here goes:
Immortal Grapple, which is a very boss card, works like this:
Once range is determined to be at close in the first round of combat (i.e.
after manuvers have been performed), a minion can play Immortal Grapple.
Once Immortal Grapple has been played, both minions can only use hand
strikes for the _remainder_of_combat_, so any additional strikes in that
combat must be hand strikes, and if combat continues for another round,
range is not determined (it stays locked at close) and still only hand
strikes can only be used.
If the combat continues into a second round, there is no manuver phase.
You can't play a manuver card. You can't use a gun to manuver. Nothing.
No manuvers. Range is automatically at close.
While two vampires are in an Immortal Grapple, only hand strikes may be
used. This means you can use any card that says " strike with hand... "
such as Undead Strength, or a previously Torn off Signpost, or punch with
basic hand damage, and even use Claws of The Dead, as it modifies your
hand damage. You can even use a card for additional strikes (like Blur),
as long as all the additional strikes are also hand strikes. You can not,
on the other hand, use any Dodges, or Strike: Combat Ends, or any other
strike that is not a hand strike. Keep in mind that even the default "1
hand damage" punch that all vamps can use is a strike, even if no card is
played.
It is perfectly acceptable to play Torn Signpost, manuver as to stay at
close range, play Immortal Grapple, then use Undead Strength to strike for
5 damage (assuming superior Potence) that can not be Dodged or avoided by
S:CE, then Blur and beat the victim twice more. If they are still alive,
you can press, and do it again, an still, they can not Dodge or S:CE, as
Immortal Grapple lasts for the entire combat.
This would make Immortal Grapple look to be a very powerful card, but it
can be avoided by manuvering to long range, and staying there, using
Fortitude to prevent all the damage (Skin of Steel does wonders against
even the best planned Immortal Grapple based attack), or also using
Potence to beat any fool who Grapples you senseless. Then there is
Thoughts Betrayed, which will prevent all of this foolishness.
Immortal Grapple is best for preventing S:CE, Dodges, and guns. As a gun
is not a hand strike, it can not be used in an Immortal Grapple. Not even
in an additional strike or on the second round of combat. No guns. No
Dodges either. They are also not hand strikes. They are Strike: Dodges.
Not even a S:CE. Just a hand strike.
There is a question as to what would happen if minion A uses a gun to
manuver to long range and then minion B manuvers to close range and
Immortal Grapples minion A. Because minion A used the gun to manuver,
they must use the gun to strike, but because Immortal Grapple has been
played, only hand strikes can be used. Presumably, the minion who used
the gun to manuver would get no strike at all in this situation, as they
are commited to using the gun (as they used its manuver), but can only use
hand strikes, due to Immortal Grapple. Thus, they lose. (Tom has agreed
with this last paragraph)
Hope this explains everything.
-Peter D Bakija
ynthe...@gamemaster.q.ca (Direwolf) writes:
>Hi, could someone please clear up a heated debate me and a few Jyhad players
>have been having. I entered combat, because a Nosferatu blocked my action, and
>therefore he played Immortal Grapple, which says this vampire can only receive
>or give strikes resulting from hand use. So in response to his Immortal
>Grapple+Undead Strenght, I played Majesty. He said the Majesty was ineffective
>because it was not a "Hand strike" and therefore had no effect, because
>Immortal Grapple specifies that the only strikes that effect his vampire are
>hand strikes. What is the answer is Majesty effective therefore ending combat,
>or does thje Immortal Grapple override this, because Majesty is not a hand
>strike. My argument that I put forth was simple, I was under the impression
>that it was hand strikes opposed to let say weapon strikes or melee strikes,
>but Majesty is neither. It is a strike, that is non physical in any sense
>because I am not really hitting anyone. I would like to know what the ruling is
>on this. Thank you for your time.
Strike: Combat Ends (as in Majesty and Earth Meld) is a strike, by nature.
Neither it nor Strike: Dodge may be used if one is restricted to hand
strikes, since both are strikes but neither is a hand strike.
Ref:
From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.deckmaster,rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Subject: JYHAD: Design Team Rulings 02/09/95
Date: 14 Feb 1995 21:18:15 GMT
Message-ID: <3hr6mn$r...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
21) Immortal Grapple says "Only hand strikes can be made against or by the
vampire using Immortal Grapple." Would this stop Majesty from being used?
Yes. Only the Vampire's inherent hand damage may be used.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Smith & Wesson: the original
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | "point and click" interface.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |
In article <4fc6d3$4...@rcogate.rco.qc.ca>, ynthe...@gamemaster.q.ca
(Direwolf) wrote:
: Hi, could someone please clear up a heated debate me and a few Jyhad players: have been having. I entered combat, because a Nosferatu blocked my
action, and
: therefore he played Immortal Grapple, which says this vampire can only
receive
: or give strikes resulting from hand use. So in response to his Immortal
: Grapple+Undead Strenght, I played Majesty.
[snip reasons behind Majesty beats Immortal Grapple argument]
:
: Direwolf
Well, your group was correct. Immortal Grapple restricts both vamps in
combat to using hand strikes only. This rules out dodges and S:CE,
including Majesty. Immortal Grapple is one of the only cards in the game
that is an effective counter to S:CE.
I hope this helps
stephen beaulieu
hi...@mail.utexas.edu
pd...@aol.com (PDB6) wrote:
>This is a repost (and I am always happy to repost...), but it explains all
>questions about Immortal Grapple which have come up again, so here goes:>Immortal Grapple, which is a very boss card, works like this:>Once range is determined to be at close in the first round of combat (i.e.
>after manuvers have been performed), a minion can play Immortal Grapple.
>Once Immortal Grapple has been played, both minions can only use hand
>strikes for the _remainder_of_combat_, so any additional strikes in that
>combat must be hand strikes, and if combat continues for another round,
>range is not determined (it stays locked at close) and still only hand
>strikes can only be used.>If the combat continues into a second round, there is no manuver phase.
>You can't play a manuver card. You can't use a gun to manuver. Nothing.
>No manuvers. Range is automatically at close.>Hope this explains everything.
>-Peter D Bakija
Where do you get this ruling?
It says nothing about the hand strike effect continuing.
REF
pd...@aol.com (PDB6) writes:
>This is a repost (and I am always happy to repost...), but it explains all
>questions about Immortal Grapple which have come up again, so here goes:>While two vampires are in an Immortal Grapple, only hand strikes may be>used. This means you can use any card that says " strike with hand... "
>such as Undead Strength, or a previously Torn off Signpost, or punch with
Apparently the VtES Signpost is not worded as a hand strike, but rather
as a strike that does damage based on current hand damage.
>basic hand damage, and even use Claws of The Dead, as it modifies your
>hand damage. You can even use a card for additional strikes (like Blur),
>as long as all the additional strikes are also hand strikes. You can not,
>on the other hand, use any Dodges, or Strike: Combat Ends, or any other
>strike that is not a hand strike. Keep in mind that even the default "1
>hand damage" punch that all vamps can use is a strike, even if no card is
>played.
Clarification:
Any Inherent /non-ranged/ strike is a hand strike, so Muddles could
use his strike for four with first strike, but Thadius could not use
his 2R (and thus has *no* strike available). Lazarus couldn't use
his inherent 1R strike, either, but could simply punch for 1 at close.
[ quoted text not captured ]
refp...@best.com (REF) writes:
>pd...@aol.com (PDB6) wrote:>>Immortal Grapple, which is a very boss card, works like this:>>Once range is determined to be at close in the first round of combat (i.e.
>>after manuvers have been performed), a minion can play Immortal Grapple.
>>Once Immortal Grapple has been played, both minions can only use hand
>>strikes for the _remainder_of_combat_, so any additional strikes in that
>>combat must be hand strikes, and if combat continues for another round,
>>range is not determined (it stays locked at close) and still only hand
>>strikes can only be used.>>If the combat continues into a second round, there is no manuver phase.
>>You can't play a manuver card. You can't use a gun to manuver. Nothing.
>>No manuvers. Range is automatically at close.
>>Hope this explains everything.
>>-Peter D Bakija>Where do you get this ruling?
>It says nothing about the hand strike effect continuing.
The Jyhad version doesn't, but the VtES version does (I'm told).
Even though the fact that superior continues the next round at close
(indicating that the grapple is fading, and fades more slowly with
superior Potence), the DT rewrote the card to make a misinterpretation
of an under-worded effect become the unarguable WayOfTheWorld:
From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Subject: Re: Immortal Grapple
Date: 13 Nov 1995 08:02:34 GMT
Message-ID: <486u2q$n...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
The normal effect of Immortal Grapple (allowing hand strikes only) lasts for
the entire combat. This is made explicit in the VTES text. The bonus for
using superior only occurs once, as it says.
[ quoted text not captured ]
aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Alec Habig) writes:
>L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:>>Strike: Combat Ends (as in Majesty and Earth Meld) is a strike, by nature.
>>Neither it nor Strike: Dodge may be used if one is restricted to hand
>>strikes, since both are strikes but neither is a hand strike.>Hmm. This tweaks a point I was thinking of last night whilst rummaging through
>my cards.>Rowan Ring is a Melee weapon.>You strike with it, it paralyzes the bad guy. Ok. It does zero damage.>However, if you were to use one of those potence cards that gives you plus
>damage with your hand strike or melee weapon, would the Ring then inflict
>zero +(whatever) damage in addition to paralyzing?
Yes.
I believe the concept was that the bearer would be wearing the ring,
and would simply add 'paralyze' to the effects of his hand strike
(namely, 1 point of damage) - but it wasn't worded that way.
But, since the card (and the concept of paralyze) didn't make it into
Vampire: the Eternal Struggle, it'll always be just my conjecture.
So, yes, if you're wearing the ring, your damage from punching with the
ring on is zero with a paralyze effect thrown in.
[ quoted text not captured ]
L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>Strike: Combat Ends (as in Majesty and Earth Meld) is a strike, by nature.
>Neither it nor Strike: Dodge may be used if one is restricted to hand
>strikes, since both are strikes but neither is a hand strike.
Hmm. This tweaks a point I was thinking of last night whilst rummaging through
my cards.
Rowan Ring is a Melee weapon.
You strike with it, it paralyzes the bad guy. Ok. It does zero damage.
However, if you were to use one of those potence cards that gives you plus
damage with your hand strike or melee weapon, would the Ring then inflict
zero +(whatever) damage in addition to paralyzing?
--
Alec Habig, Indiana University High Energy Astrophysics
aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu
http://www.astro.indiana.edu/home/ahabig/
Ban the Bomb: Make the world safe for conventional warfare!
In article <4fc6d3$4...@rcogate.rco.qc.ca> ynthe...@gamemaster.q.ca (Direwolf) writes:
>Hi, could someone please clear up a heated debate me and a few Jyhad players
>have been having. I entered combat, because a Nosferatu blocked my action, and
>therefore he played Immortal Grapple, which says this vampire can only receive
>or give strikes resulting from hand use. So in response to his Immortal>Grapple+Undead Strenght, I played Majesty. He said the Majesty was ineffective
>because it was not a "Hand strike" and therefore had no effect, because
>Immortal Grapple specifies that the only strikes that effect his vampire are
>hand strikes. What is the answer is Majesty effective therefore ending combat,
>or does thje Immortal Grapple override this, because Majesty is not a hand
>strike. My argument that I put forth was simple, I was under the impression
>that it was hand strikes opposed to let say weapon strikes or melee strikes,
>but Majesty is neither. It is a strike, that is non physical in any sense
>because I am not really hitting anyone. I would like to know what the ruling is
>on this. Thank you for your time.
>
No, Majesty is not physically striking, but it still says strike
on the card, making it a strike card( duh ). Immortal grapple
only allows hand strikes, therefore, unless the card says
strike: <whatever> hand damage or uses no cards, just hands,
then the non-hand strike card has no effect.
>
> Direwolf
>
>
--
-- Nyarlathotep : The Crawling Chaos
( ny...@netcom.com )
aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu (Alec Habig) wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Wow! What a concept.
Vampire twists arm around back saing take this ring or I'll break you
inhalf.
Rory
sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote:
>The Jyhad version doesn't, but the VtES version does (I'm told).
>Even though the fact that superior continues the next round at close
>(indicating that the grapple is fading, and fades more slowly with
>superior Potence), the DT rewrote the card to make a misinterpretation
>of an under-worded effect become the unarguable WayOfTheWorld:> From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie)
> Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
> Subject: Re: Immortal Grapple
> Date: 13 Nov 1995 08:02:34 GMT
> Message-ID: <486u2q$n...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>> The normal effect of Immortal Grapple (allowing hand strikes only) lasts for
> the entire combat. This is made explicit in the VTES text. The bonus for
> using superior only occurs once, as it says.>-->L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Smith & Wesson: the original
>http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | "point and click" interface.
>Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |
~~~~~~~~~~~
Grumble