One Less Brujah Prince

I just noticed the Camarilla edition didn't give any Brujah the title of prince. Fortunately all but Rake were group 2, but still that's annoying, Rake was worth using. These days for your decks to remember carthage you have to steal a bunch of cities first. It's understandable though. So many of the effective Brujah decks were prince decks. Untapping and blocking at +2 intercept is too much fun when you have the combat capability of a brujah. Brujah debate looks about as viable as before, but certainly no more so. All in all though, I like what was done with the Brujah in group 3. If you love black cat and rake, basically if you want the good cheap Brujah, you probably stick with groups 1 and 2. If you want a Justicar to strike fear in others, or generally just want to be playing the biggest scariest combat monsters on the table, the group 3 Brujah are well suited. Wisefool Mercuriel

Matt wrote: > I just noticed the Camarilla edition didn't give any Brujah the title > of prince. Fortunately all but Rake were group 2, but still that's > annoying, Rake was worth using. These days for your decks to remember > carthage you have to steal a bunch of cities first. Well, the Brujah get the praxis-seizing Maxwell. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> >Matt wrote: >> I just noticed the Camarilla edition didn't give any Brujah the title >> of prince. Fortunately all but Rake were group 2, but still that's >> annoying, Rake was worth using. These days for your decks to remember >> carthage you have to steal a bunch of cities first. > >Well, the Brujah get the praxis-seizing Maxwell. But he doesn't get a vote in it though... Can not pass unless you have votes some other way... [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <20030217142735...@mb-fj.aol.com>, albert1642 <alber...@aol.com> writes: <Maxwell's built in Praxis Seizure> >But he doesn't get a vote in it though... Can not pass unless you have votes >some other way... Sure. But if you're going to be playing a politics oriented deck, a few Bewitching Orations, Awes or similar are likely to crop up in a deck. There's also the fact that you can get the Edge. If you have someone else bleed first. (Though his size might make this a problem, due to other votes possibly being on the table.) Of course, there's always the three group 2 Princes who are easily included, or Jaroslav, who's a pretty reasonable 10 cap Justicar. And for most intents and purposes, a Justicar is pretty usable instead of a Prince. (Unless, for instance, you specifically wanted to contest that Praxis/Diocese.) And Don Cruez is a pretty sucky Justicar. Swings and roundabouts. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Hi! I'm Nancy Drew! You must be the Hardy Boys! 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

>>Well, the Brujah get the praxis-seizing Maxwell. > >But he doesn't get a vote in it though... Can not pass unless you have votes >some other way... Well, with PRE that shouldn't be too much of a problem anyway. And he can even use a Charming Lobby for an additional two votes and to use his stealth special. I think it's a *good* thing that the Brujah didn't get any true Princes in CE. They got spoiled in DS with no less than 3 Princes and I think this helps even things up a bit. Halcyan 2

In message <20030217165628...@mb-fc.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> writes: >I think it's a *good* thing that the Brujah didn't get any true Princes in CE. >They got spoiled in DS with no less than 3 Princes and I think this helps even >things up a bit. The 'trick' (intentional or no) with Brujah politics has been habitually to give them good vampires who are a bit hamstrung by *something*. Donal and Constanza are both excellent, but had they had Presence, they'd have been pretty obscene. Similarly, Volker misses out on Presence, and is 'over-costed', point for point, - though he of course benefits from such a low capacity title, which makes up for it. Don Cruez was mostly pants - one of the big mistakes of the first edition, of course, being getting some of the bigger vampires wrong. (Whereas the big mistake of Dark Sovereigns was getting a number of library cards wrong, but with some quite nice vampires. Funny old world, eh?) Only Rake really escapes. What the Camarilla Set does quite nicely is throws a few more useful Primogen into the mix. 3 6s, 4 7s. Whereas Princes don't kick in until 2 7s. Which does put a little more hierarchy into the whole thing. And someone like, say, Carna or Antoinette is a good inclusion *anyway*. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <fF1C9SZj...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> mumbled something about: >Don Cruez was mostly pants - one of the big mistakes of the first >edition, of course, being getting some of the bigger vampires wrong. >(Whereas the big mistake of Dark Sovereigns was getting a number of >library cards wrong, but with some quite nice vampires. Funny old >world, eh?) *puzzle* Don kicks all kinds of ass, though. He has all in-clan superiors -- critical if you want to vote with him, still useful if you're going to Enchant Kindred occasionally. He has Animalism and can use all those utility cards, including such helpful items as Raven Spy and Cat's Guidance. He has Dominate and can Deflect. Almost mandatory with a 10-cap. He has Protean. With a Torn Signpost and Blur, he can hit you for 3, then 3, then Claws for 3 agg; POOF. Option always available to drop Claws on the first or second strike for low-blood vampires. Alternatively, your combat can be IG/Claws/Amaranth, if you have Volker and Rake nearby to help with the vote lock. Worried about Potence? You can go towards Flesh of Marble if you like... He has a spare maneuver every combat. Yeah, it's expensive at a blood, but when you're Tasting it all back anyway, it really helps to be able to lower the number of Flash/Pursuit your deck needs. And realistically, you're going to be Tasting a lot back anyway. He's a Justicar. 3 votes, 2nd Tradition, Protect Thine Own, and all the other (lesser) Traditions. Add just one Raven Spy and he can stop almost anything with a 2nd Tradition. Add a second and it's no fun to be near him anymore. Downside? He's a 10-cap. Now if you want a Justicar who's pants, I suggest eyeballing Anxious, the Unruly. Inferior Fortitude in a combat clan is inexcusable. -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

> Of course, there's always the three group 2 Princes who are easily > included, or Jaroslav, who's a pretty reasonable 10 cap Justicar. And > for most intents and purposes, a Justicar is pretty usable instead of a > Prince. (Unless, for instance, you specifically wanted to contest that > Praxis/Diocese.) And Don Cruez is a pretty sucky Justicar. > I feel a bit defensive about this cos I still think Don is cool. I can see that the new guy is better in certain decks, but Don's sucky-ness certainly depends on how you play your Bruhaj... For a long while, I had a Euro deck with 13 second Trads, 13 Grapples and several (I think 6) Deflections. The rest was pot/cel close range stuff, and a handful of votes/actions. No presence. (The heavy intercept/bounce suited the city I played in - a low combat, high-sleaze environment, particularly during tournaments). In this deck, Don is as good or better than the new guy - his special lets you stay close to grapple, and his dom lets you deflect stealthed bleeds. So call that 2 solid bonuses over the standard disciplines and title. Compare him with Jaroslav in such a deck - his melee weapon bonus is of no use, his intercept bonus is handy, but may be superfluous since you will often be using the 2nds to untap anyway, and the ability to damage Sabbat is highly conditional. So call that one and a half goodies on top of the in-clans and title.

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<dj335vgoeqdhkgtjd...@4ax.com>... > In message <fF1C9SZj...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, > James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> mumbled something about: > > >Don Cruez was mostly pants - one of the big mistakes of the first > >edition, of course, being getting some of the bigger vampires wrong. > >(Whereas the big mistake of Dark Sovereigns was getting a number of > >library cards wrong, but with some quite nice vampires. Funny old > >world, eh?) > > *puzzle* Don kicks all kinds of ass, though. > I agrre with u!! Don is a Great Justicar & Vamp. > He has all in-clan superiors -- critical if you want to vote with him, > still useful if you're going to Enchant Kindred occasionally. > Yes , let me remember u that Angus inf. fortitude, Democritus inf. fortitude 2 sucky , Dont think so? He has Animalism and can use all those utility cards, including such > helpful items as Raven Spy and Cat's Guidance. Crimson Fury Vitae block & a Great & useful number of cards releasaed in the FN,BL expansions. > > He has Dominate and can Deflect. Almost mandatory with a 10-cap. YEAH ! > > He has Protean. With a Torn Signpost and Blur, he can hit you for 3, > then 3, then Claws for 3 agg; POOF. Option always available to drop > Claws on the first or second strike for low-blood vampires. > Alternatively, your combat can be IG/Claws/Amaranth, if you have Volker > and Rake nearby to help with the vote lock. Worried about Potence? You > can go towards Flesh of Marble if you like... hmmmm Flesh of Marble ..... NU Flesh of marble. Only this is a POINT for Don Cruez , a BIG Point Flesh of marble + sideslip ;-) > > He has a spare maneuver every combat. Yeah, it's expensive at a blood, > but when you're Tasting it all back anyway, it really helps to be able > to lower the number of Flash/Pursuit your deck needs. And > realistically, you're going to be Tasting a lot back anyway. Agree 2! Only Brujah & Assamite decks has more than a manuever to escape from IG etc... > > He's a Justicar. 3 votes, 2nd Tradition, Protect Thine Own, and all the > other (lesser) Traditions. Add just one Raven Spy and he can stop > almost anything with a 2nd Tradition. Add a second and it's no fun to > be near him anymore. > Agree again ;-) > Downside? He's a 10-cap. Cheap ,isnt him? > > Now if you want a Justicar who's pants, I suggest eyeballing Anxious, > the Unruly. Inferior Fortitude in a combat clan is inexcusable. LOL!! Don Cruez Only has a rival ( in the Jyhad expansion) ULUGH BEG!!! The gargolie companion!! potence, fortitude , celerity ... AMAZING!!!!!!!! Best regards from a drunk...

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<dj335vgoeqdhkgtjd...@4ax.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] +1 strength, justicar and potence is worth the price for a gangrel ...

Ulugh Beg wrote: > Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message (about don) >> He has Protean. With a Torn Signpost and Blur, he can hit you for >> 3, then 3, then Claws for 3 agg; POOF. Option always available to >> drop Claws on the first or second strike for low-blood vampires. >> Alternatively, your combat can be IG/Claws/Amaranth, if you have >> Volker and Rake nearby to help with the vote lock. Worried about >> Potence? You can go towards Flesh of Marble if you like... > hmmmm Flesh of Marble ..... NU Flesh of marble. Only this is a POINT > for Don Cruez , a BIG Point Flesh of marble + sideslip ;-) except that flesh of marble + sideslip is not a valid combo ;)

alber...@aol.com (albert1642) wrote in message news:<20030217142735...@mb-fj.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I take it you've never tried the 'Mr Inner Circle member, you'd better vote for this or my other Brujah are gonna come over there and smash your face in' or perhaps a 'vote for this and I'll smash in a vamp of your prey for ya'. Both tend to work with startling efficiency... Marty Who says violence solves nothing?

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes Don Cruez kick ass with the best. Before Laz I did Don all star decks. Of course, we played Sideslip and Flesh of Marble differently at that time Never used him with claws. (Like Laz it is better to just smash them to crap and pull their fangs) > > > > Now if you want a Justicar who's pants, I suggest eyeballing Anxious, > > the Unruly. Inferior Fortitude in a combat clan is inexcusable. > > +1 strength, justicar and potence is worth the price for a gangrel ... Angus is good. But the inferior fortitude has admittedly always annoyed me. He shares that with ole Democritus of course. The only Justicar I never quite saw some point with is ... Lucian (i think)... the Malkavian that steals equipment FC

In message <690c2085.03021...@posting.google.com>, athosg...@gmx.at (Angus, the Unruled) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<dj335vgoeqdhkgtjd...@4ax.com>... >> >> Now if you want a Justicar who's pants, I suggest eyeballing Anxious, >> the Unruly. Inferior Fortitude in a combat clan is inexcusable. > >+1 strength, justicar and potence is worth the price for a gangrel ... Then someone Blurs against him and he gets his face beaten in because, OOPS! Can't prevent a second and third strike with inferior Fortitude. Personally, if I want +1 strength, pot, and for, I'll pick Zack North. Alternatively, I'll put a Ritual Challenge on Badger, who lives a lot longer than either Zack or Angus does. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ajk45v89b39o3phi8...@4ax.com>... > > > >+1 strength, justicar and potence is worth the price for a gangrel ... > > Then someone Blurs against him and he gets his face beaten in because, > OOPS! Can't prevent a second and third strike with inferior Fortitude. > Correct, but Flesh of Marble fits the bill nicely. T

In article <76d1d5ef.03021...@posting.google.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] Actually, Infection's inferior-fortitude fallback level does just that -- Skin of Steel's superior effect (prevent all damage from opponent's strikes this round) at twice the cost (2 blood). This is why Infection found a home in my Nos Princes with fortitude deck -- none of them has superior FOR and I didn't want to mess with skill cards. 2 blood is cheap when you're facing Pot/Cel beats, and Nos royalty can afford it. gomi -- there's a place called heaven and a place called hell there's a place called prison and a place called jail and daddy's probably on his way to all of them, except one...

Gomi no Sensei wrote: > In article <76d1d5ef.03021...@posting.google.com>, > Talonz <talo...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:<ajk45v89b39o3phi8...@4ax.com>... >> >>>> >>>> +1 strength, justicar and potence is worth the price for a >>>> gangrel ... >>> >>> Then someone Blurs against him and he gets his face beaten in >>> because, OOPS! Can't prevent a second and third strike with >>> inferior Fortitude. >>> >> >> Correct, but Flesh of Marble fits the bill nicely. > > Actually, Infection's inferior-fortitude fallback level does just > that -- Skin of Steel's superior effect (prevent all damage from > opponent's strikes this round) at twice the cost (2 blood). > > This is why Infection found a home in my Nos Princes with fortitude > deck -- none of them has superior FOR and I didn't want to mess > with skill cards. 2 blood is cheap when you're facing Pot/Cel > beats, and Nos royalty can afford it. i play with infection too in most of my decks, and nobody around seems to understand : they all keep playing their skin of steel for 1 point of damage jsut to cycle.... =)

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ajk45v89b39o3phi8...@4ax.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Yes, and then you play a secon ... oohps with Angus, there are many possibilities to get those pot-cel freaks: 1: Play a Fortitude Skill card on him 2: Scorpion Sting aggravated -> Torpor -> no additionals 3: Flesh of Marble

Angus, the Unruled wrote: > Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> Personally, if I want +1 strength, pot, and for, I'll pick Zack >> North. >> >> Alternatively, I'll put a Ritual Challenge on Badger, who lives a >> lot longer than either Zack or Angus does. > > Yes, and then you play a secon ... oohps I agree on this, Angus can use the 2nd tradition for better overall efficiency. > with Angus, there are many possibilities to get those pot-cel > freaks: 1: Play a Fortitude Skill card on him > 2: Scorpion Sting aggravated -> Torpor -> no additionals > 3: Flesh of Marble the first solution is better : when Angus has a fortitude card on him, even inner circle can't play obedience when he rushes ;)) anyway my fav justicar always have been democritus, the most sucky of them. Don't ask me why, it's just because i like Timbrook's art =) I even tried to play him with Lasombras in lame attempt to get the combo Political Seizure + Democritu's special + even Thanks fot the donation. Other people kept pointing me that playing Dominate Kine was less a hassle... And they were right =)

In message <dj335vgoeqdhkgtjd...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes: >In message <fF1C9SZj...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, >James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> mumbled something about: >>Don Cruez was mostly pants - one of the big mistakes of the first >>edition, of course, being getting some of the bigger vampires wrong. >>(Whereas the big mistake of Dark Sovereigns was getting a number of >>library cards wrong, but with some quite nice vampires. Funny old >>world, eh?) > >*puzzle* Don kicks all kinds of ass, though. I don't like him hugely for a number of reasons. Sure, he could be worse, but... First of all, compared to recent vampires, he's not doing so well, point for point. But that's mostly inevitable in Jyhad-creations vs, say, TCE creations, due to the changes in 'system' and experience. So we can leave that one mostly to one side. Partly, CEL POT ani pro is crying out to be used in combat. Except, he's huge. Without Fortitude. Fifth Tradition won't save your ass quite as much now, in terms of pool efficiency, so that's not that great an option. (This feeds back into the above. Single action potential big vampires tend to be inherently poorer, even if only slightly, than multiple action ones. Of course, permanent abilities etc. counteract this, but a maneuver isn't so good.) The maneuver, just mentioned, isn't that great. If you're playing Brujah combat, you have a bag full of Flash anyway. Sure, it's handy to have in a pinch, but it's not as good as it could have been. A free maneuver (no cost) wouldn't strike me as overpowered, for instance, or perhaps something more interesting or different. I just don't really think it's going to set the world alight. He does work reasonably well for Carthage Remembered. He's the only one who can play PRE/dom at stealth from it. (Though Donal and Constanza can do DOM, which might be better, depending on your point of view.) Personally, I'd much rather have a vampire like Sheldon than like Don. Democritus isn't too bad either. He does have for, even if not FOR, and his +1 bleed is rather nice. Unlike a maneuver, it stacks with what you've got rather than simply stopping you needing to use cards. Anneke is also rather good, having seen what Rob Treasure manages with her. That "dom" is pretty horrendous, with her ability. Block anywhere, play 2nd Tradition, play Obedience. Nasty table control shenanigins. I just find Don too big and too unwieldy, really, for general use. Obviously, trick decks etc. but you can say that for practically any vampire. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, James Coupe wrote: > Personally, I'd much rather have a vampire like Sheldon than like Don. > Democritus isn't too bad either. He does have for, even if not FOR, and > his +1 bleed is rather nice. Unlike a maneuver, it stacks with what > you've got rather than simply stopping you needing to use cards. A built-in permenant that mirrors effects you would do with library cards anyway is a useful thing. At a rough guess, I'd say you'd need 8-12 maneuver cards to reliably have one in hand when you need it. Therefore, Don's ability translates into 8-12 free slots that could be used to offset the weaknesses of your deck archetype, tricks and surpises, or whatever. Offsetting library cards with specials is something I've been focusing on a lot lately, and the results have seemed good. David Cherryholmes Prince of Durham, NC

In message <Pine.GSO.4.21.030219...@petite.mc.duke.edu> , David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> writes: >On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, James Coupe wrote: >> Personally, I'd much rather have a vampire like Sheldon than like Don. >> Democritus isn't too bad either. He does have for, even if not FOR, and >> his +1 bleed is rather nice. Unlike a maneuver, it stacks with what >> you've got rather than simply stopping you needing to use cards. > >A built-in permenant that mirrors effects you would do with library cards >anyway is a useful thing. At a rough guess, I'd say you'd need 8-12 >maneuver cards to reliably have one in hand when you need it. That's about right, over the course of a whole deck. >Therefore, >Don's ability translates into 8-12 free slots that could be used to >offset the weaknesses of your deck archetype, tricks and surpises, or >whatever. But only if you're *only* using Don. Which for a combat deck, would be silly. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 19 Feb 2003, James Coupe wrote: > But only if you're *only* using Don. Which for a combat deck, would be > silly. True. I was thinking more of decks that I've actually built employing this technique. In this specific case it isn't so relevant, although given that he can play 2nd tradition, a "block everything, act a little" style of deck with 4 or 5 copies of Don would be viable. [ quoted text not captured ]

go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote in message news:<b2ucpd$rn1$1...@panix1.panix.com>... > > > >Correct, but Flesh of Marble fits the bill nicely. > > Actually, Infection's inferior-fortitude fallback level does just that -- > Skin of Steel's superior effect (prevent all damage from opponent's strikes > this round) at twice the cost (2 blood). > Good call! T

In message <Pine.GSO.4.21.030219...@petite.mc.duke.edu> , David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> writes: [ quoted text not captured ] True, and not bad with the dom to Obedience if necessary, or the combat to demolish, which would combine reasonably well with Donal or Constanza - but if you're going for that angle, you might actually be better off with one of them. [ quoted text not captured ]

"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3e53766a$0$14781$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] I always hated Democritus (as opponent). Dunno why, but i guess 3 more votes for ventrue (yes, there was a time when there wasn't a lame arika..., and no awe) meant bad news back then.

athosg...@gmx.at (Angus, the Unruled) wrote in message news:<690c2085.03022...@posting.google.com>... > "reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3e53766a$0$14781$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>... > > anyway my fav justicar always have been democritus, the most sucky of them. > > Don't ask me why, it's just because i like Timbrook's art =) > > I even tried to play him with Lasombras in lame attempt to get the combo > > Political Seizure + Democritu's special + even Thanks fot the donation. > > Other people kept pointing me that playing Dominate Kine was less a > > hassle... And they were right =) > > I always hated Democritus (as opponent). Dunno why, but i guess 3 more > votes for ventrue (yes, there was a time when there wasn't a lame > arika..., and no awe) meant bad news back then. Democritus was 'the Man' as far as I was concerned back in the Jyhad days when I played Ventrue Law Firms. T

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote > The 'trick' (intentional or no) with Brujah politics has been habitually > to give them good vampires who are a bit hamstrung by *something*.> > Only Rake really escapes. Exactly, that's the biggest drawback of playing any group 3 Brujah, no Rake. It also means no Adrianne or any of the other more warlike group 1 Toreador. I haven't come across it myself, but I'm assuming pot/pre/aus/cel used to be a good archetype. Group I gave us 1. Adrianne Toreador 6 2. Rake Brujah 6 3. Miranda Sanova Brujah 8 Group 2 gave us 1. Rigby, Crusade Vanguard Brujah-Antitribu 5 2. Sigrid Bekker Toreador 6 3. Donatien Toreador-Antitribu 9 4. Francois Villon Toreador 10 5. Augustus Giovanni Giovanni 11 6. Gwendolyn Brujah 11 7. Harrod Nosferatu 11 Group 3 gives us 1. Jeremy MacNeil Brujah 7 2. Madame Guil Toreador 10 3. Menele Brujah 10 So again we see good vamps for Brujah in group 3, but at high costs. It really looks like group 1 is good for the weenies, and group 3 is good for the biggies.

> I haven't come across it myself, but I'm assuming pot/pre/aus/cel used > to be a good archetype. You would be mistaken. The arch-type that resembled that was the Euro-Brujah Princes that were much more effective card for card using second Traditions and 4th Traditions as improved substitutes for Aus and Pre. Also has access to DOM and deflections and GTU's. It was all around better than pot/cel/aus/cel which will not fit very well into a 90 card deck. -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

On 18 Feb 2003 17:40:45 -0500, go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: >This is why Infection found a home in my Nos Princes with fortitude >deck -- none of them has superior FOR and I didn't want to mess with skill >cards. 2 blood is cheap when you're facing Pot/Cel beats, and Nos >royalty can afford it. Late, late, late, but nice tech, Gomi. I hope you don't mind that I'll be stealing that. Heh. Xian