Rowan Ring, hand damage and house rules

Hello all, I just put together a small compilation of house rules for use by our Helsinki play group, and tried to figure out a way to integrate the Rowan Ring with the VteS rules (no paralyze). So far I have: * Rowan Ring: replace card text with: "Strike: opposing vampire goes into torpor." (does not transfer to victim). I removed the transfer "feature" because it didn't make much sense to me. Any comments, would this incarnation of the Rowan Ring be too powerful or too weak in your opinion? Compared to the Ivory Bow, this would give the Bow the advantage of a) actually doing damage, and b) being ranged while the Ring would have the advantage of the effect not being preventable by damage prevention (dodge / maneuver works, of course). Opinions? Secondly, does anyone have a proper definion of what is "hand damage" and what isn't? No, I'm not interested in the Rules Team garbage about all non-weapon strikes being hand strikes ("whee, and for my next act I steal 2 blood from you at long range -- and top it off with Undead Strength!"). //Petri BTW, my current "house rules" file looks like this, in case anyone is interested: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Vampire: the Eternal Struggle" House Rules These are an evolving set of house rules for the Helsinki Jyhad/VteS player community. These are additions and changes to the official rules and errata, with the purpose of fixing some things that are "wrong" with the official rules. The term "wallpaper fix" means a change to make a useless card usable. In addition to these, the latest official errata is in effect. General Rules * No upper limit to the library deck size. [the number of players is rarely known beforehand, and people like to experiment with deck design, i.e. build large decks] * VteS card texts are used for Jyhad cards. [makes the game play uniform for people with cards from different sets, and the VteS texts are better in most cases] * Political cards burned for extra votes are replaced at the end of the minion phase. [DCI tournament rule, fix for degenerate vote push decks] * A minion may not attempt the same action more than once per turn, regardless of subsequent untapping. Definition of "same action": For the purposes of cards that prohibit the "same action", if an action defined in the rulebook (bleed, equip, recruit ally, recruit retainer, political action, hunt, encounter vampire in torpor, leave torpor) is accomplished more than once, it is considered the same action even if the target changes or a different action card is used. Likewise, any such action accomplished without a card is considered the same as the same action accomplished with an action card. [DCI tournament rule, fix for degenerate untap decks] * Action cards and Action Modifiers can always be played by the acting Minion, even if it is not the controlling Methuselah's turn. Reaction cards can be played by Minions controlled by a Methuselah other than the Methuselah controlling the acting Minion, regardless of whose turn it is. [Commonsense ruling, mainly for Malkavian Madness Network situations] * Stealth may only be increased when necessary, i.e. when blocked by a minion with sufficent intercept. [Fix for a recent completely braindead Rules Team ruling] * Weapon strikes are never hand strikes (even though the damage may be based on hand damage). Strikes usings cards that do not specifically mention hand damage are not hand strikes. Ranged damage is never hand damage. [The Rules Team is very confused about what is "hand damage" and what isn't, and has thrown common sense out the window. The definition above may need to be modified to take some special cards into account(?)] * Strikes which say "do damage based on melee weapons" can do damage even if the melee weapon doesn't normally do damage. Notably, Lucky Blow, Undead Strength, etc. can be used with Rowan Ring. [Commonsense ruling] Specific Cards * Chainsaw: does 3 damage each strike, only usable once each round. [Wallpaper fix] * Concealed Weapon: does not require Obfuscate. [Wallpaper fix, this seems to have been the original intention of the card] * Form of Mist: the superior version counts as an action modifier, so only one may be used on a given action. [Fix for semi-degenerate FoM decks] * Monocle of Clarity: may not be used to ask questions about the future or outside the game. Metaquestions (trick questions about questions) are not allowed. [Fix for degenerate uses of the Monocle] * Rowan Ring: replace card text with: "Strike: opposing vampire goes into torpor." (does not transfer to victim). [Makes the Rowan Ring usable under VteS rules (no paralysis).] * Werewolf Pack: is not unique, and add text: "Can prevent one damage each combat. During the controller's untap phase, if the Pack has less than 3 lives, add one from the blood bank." [Wallpaper fix]

Petri Wessman wrote: > Secondly, does anyone have a proper definion of what is "hand damage" > and what isn't? No, I'm not interested in the Rules Team garbage about > all non-weapon strikes being hand strikes ("whee, and for my next act > I steal 2 blood from you at long range -- and top it off with Undead > Strength!"). From: vte...@regency.wizards.com (L. Scott Johnson) Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Subject: General game defintitions Date: 24 Feb 1997 20:18:07 GMT Message-ID: <5est1v$6...@news.wizards.com> To clear up a few points that may have been clouded by earlier conflicting or ambiguous statements: Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged damage-dealing innate strike. Hand Damage - damage from a hand strike. e.g. Damage from a Bastard Sword is *not* hand damage. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com) Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

The fix for the Rowan ring is probably the best that I've seen. All your fixes are good and I like the one for the Werewolf Pack - no more wallpaper. :)

Petri Wessman wrote: > [clip] > > * No upper limit to the library deck size. > [the number of players is rarely known beforehand, and people > like to > experiment with deck design, i.e. build large decks] You are aware that this is incompatible with the Sabbat withdrawal rules, aren't you? You either need to alter your rule or add another house rule ignoring/altering the Sabbat withdrawal format. > * VteS card texts are used for Jyhad cards. > [makes the game play uniform for people with cards from different > sets, > and the VteS texts are better in most cases] > This is already part of the official rulings and errata. > * Weapon strikes are never hand strikes (even though the damage may > be based on hand damage). Strikes usings cards that do not specifically > mention hand damage are not hand strikes. Ranged damage is never hand > damage. [The Rules Team is very confused about what is "hand damage" and > what isn't, and has thrown common sense out the window. The definition > above may need to be modified to take some special cards into account(?)] The ruling you are referring to was made by the underqualified Jon Wilkie and have since been corrected. > * Concealed Weapon: does not require Obfuscate. > [Wallpaper fix, this seems to have been the original intention of the card] While this is a good fix, it inadvertantly makes the Nosferatu weaker by making the ability to disguise or conceal a weapon a much more accessable ability. > * Form of Mist: the superior version counts as an action modifier, so > only one may be used on a given action. > [Fix for semi-degenerate FoM decks] Probably not a good idea to muddy the waters with an action modifier that can be played during combat. The best fix here is to simply make the rule about unneeded stealth apply at all times. With this rule in place a minion would be prevented from playing the superior FoM unless there was a block. As part of this ruling, "enter combat with" actions would be considered "complete" if the action is not blocked. The completion would occur before the resulting combat. Or to put it another way, the "enter combat with" is the action not the combat itself. > * Monocle of Clarity: may not be used to ask questions about the > future or outside the game. Metaquestions (trick questions about > questions) are not allowed. > [Fix for degenerate uses of the Monocle] The current fixes for Monocle are sufficient and superior to the ones listed above. Questions about the future are fine as long as the future pertains only to the current turn. -Robert -- ...................................................................... :The opinions expressed here are strictly my own delusional ramblings: :and do not reflect the opinions of The Walt Disney Company. : : : :Robert Goudie robert...@studio.disney.com: :LA Tourney Info - http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~ezix/other/rg/vtourn_1.html: :....................................................................: :Da pony run, he jump he pitch. He t'row my master in da ditch. : :He died and da jury wondered why. Da verdict was the blue tail fly.: :....................................................................:

In article <7xvi42o...@termiitti.akumiitti.fi>, Petri Wessman <or...@termiitti.akumiitti.fi> writes >Hello all, I just put together a small compilation of house rules for >use by our Helsinki play group, and tried to figure out a way to >integrate the Rowan Ring with the VteS rules (no paralyze). So far I >have: > > * Rowan Ring: replace card text with: "Strike: opposing vampire goes into > torpor." (does not transfer to victim). It's probably better to use the alternative rules in V:TES (it does mention the fact that no new cards will have Paralyse but if you use the old cards this is what they do) since Paralysis has always been (and should always be) easier to get out of than torpor. And the Rowan Ring should transfer to the victim because if a vampire is staked (as they would be with the huge, wobba-jobba pointy bit on the Rowan Ring (havn't seen card, but know this from V:TM)) and you remove the stake, they are no longer staked and can move around normally (just with a bit less blood and or health). >I removed the transfer "feature" because it didn't make much sense to >me. Any comments, would this incarnation of the Rowan Ring be too >powerful or too weak in your opinion? Compared to the Ivory Bow, this >would give the Bow the advantage of > > a) actually doing damage, and > b) being ranged > >while the Ring would have the advantage of the effect not being >preventable by damage prevention (dodge / maneuver works, of course). > >Opinions? > Well, the point is that the Ivory Bow does do damage - aggravated damage. Aggravated damage is very susceptible to the card Rotschreck, whereas paralysis isn't. >Secondly, does anyone have a proper definion of what is "hand damage" >and what isn't? No, I'm not interested in the Rules Team garbage about >all non-weapon strikes being hand strikes ("whee, and for my next act >I steal 2 blood from you at long range -- and top it off with Undead >Strength!"). > As far as I know, this has been over-ruled .... rustle of papers.... the last rules errata from the Sabbat (for some reason) has the following ruling from LSJ which is easy to use: Combat Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged damage dealing innate strike. This is simple to follow. Striking for hand damage is, obviously, hand damage. Striking with Thrown Sewer Lid isn't (ranged strike, not based on hand damage). Blood Rage isn't (close range, but not based on hand damage) Undead Strength is hand damage (close range, based on hand damage) unless used on bastard sword (that nullifies it because using a weapon means it isn't) >//Petri > > >BTW, my current "house rules" file looks like this, in case anyone is >interested: > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > "Vampire: the Eternal Struggle" House Rules > >These are an evolving set of house rules for the Helsinki Jyhad/VteS player >community. These are additions and changes to the official rules and errata, >with the purpose of fixing some things that are "wrong" with the official >rules. The term "wallpaper fix" means a change to make a useless card >usable. > >In addition to these, the latest official errata is in effect. > >General Rules > > * No upper limit to the library deck size. > [the number of players is rarely known beforehand, and people like to > experiment with deck design, i.e. build large decks] Can get a teensy bit out of hand - we used to play an upper limit of 100 and decks got a bit silly, but 100 was an easier number to use than telling everybody who was coming exactly who else was coming - any last minute cancellations would mean ringing round everyone. > > * VteS card texts are used for Jyhad cards. > [makes the game play uniform for people with cards from different sets, > and the VteS texts are better in most cases] Always sensible. > > * Political cards burned for extra votes are replaced at the end of the > minion phase. > [DCI tournament rule, fix for degenerate vote push decks] Hmmm... we never got along with that, but we tend to avoid vote decks because people scream at you (the only votes we tend to use - beside ones which get you more votes eg Praxis Seizures) are the pool maneuvering or depletion votes (Parity Shift, KRC etc.) It's very difficult to win without using those type of votes. > > * A minion may not attempt the same action more than once per turn, > regardless of subsequent untapping. > > Definition of "same action": For the purposes of cards that prohibit > the "same action", if an action defined in the rulebook (bleed, equip, > recruit ally, recruit retainer, political action, hunt, encounter > vampire in torpor, leave torpor) is accomplished more than once, it is > considered the same action even if the target changes or a different > action card is used. Likewise, any such action accomplished without a > card is considered the same as the same action accomplished with an > action card. > [DCI tournament rule, fix for degenerate untap decks] > Is this really such a problem for other people? We hardly ever play Rutor's Hands or Freak Drives. > * Action cards and Action Modifiers can always be played by the acting > Minion, even if it is not the controlling Methuselah's turn. Reaction > cards can be played by Minions controlled by a Methuselah other than > the Methuselah controlling the acting Minion, regardless of whose turn > it is. > [Commonsense ruling, mainly for Malkavian Madness Network situations] I think the point of not being able to play action modifiers on someone else's turn is that it's difficult enough to get control over vampires when it's your turn (high pool cost) and doing it outside of your turn is a bit difficult (the same reason why you can only play one Out of Turn Master until after your next turn regardless of how many master phase actions you should get next turn). > > * Stealth may only be increased when necessary, i.e. when blocked by a > minion with sufficent intercept. > [Fix for a recent completely braindead Rules Team ruling] > Okay, so it's a brain dead ruling, but you can use it to your advantage in you own decks (stops hand jam). Just ban it when you're not playing a stealth deck. > * Weapon strikes are never hand strikes (even though the damage may be > based on hand damage). Strikes usings cards that do not specifically > mention hand damage are not hand strikes. Ranged damage is never hand > damage. > [The Rules Team is very confused about what is "hand damage" and what > isn't, and has thrown common sense out the window. The definition above > may need to be modified to take some special cards into account(?)] See above. > > * Strikes which say "do damage based on melee weapons" can do damage even > if the melee weapon doesn't normally do damage. Notably, Lucky Blow, > Undead Strength, etc. can be used with Rowan Ring. > [Commonsense ruling] > Especially Reverend Blackwood using Theft of Vitae (stupid bloke we met in a shop). >Specific Cards > > * Chainsaw: does 3 damage each strike, only usable once each round. > [Wallpaper fix] > > * Concealed Weapon: does not require Obfuscate. > [Wallpaper fix, this seems to have been the original intention of the > card] Kind of down plays the point of Obfuscate though. Just letting anyone bring weapons into play is a bit of a pain for the Malks and Nosferatu > > * Form of Mist: the superior version counts as an action modifier, so > only one may be used on a given action. > [Fix for semi-degenerate FoM decks] We played, at one point, that it could only be used by an acting minion who was blocked and went into combat, but didn't prevent people playing more than one per action (eg if the newly continued action is blocked) > > * Monocle of Clarity: may not be used to ask questions about the future > or outside the game. Metaquestions (trick questions about questions) > are not allowed. > [Fix for degenerate uses of the Monocle] Better to play it that you can ask questions about the future but you are only bound to them until your next untap phase (as per RTR). > > * Rowan Ring: replace card text with: "Strike: opposing vampire goes into > torpor." (does not transfer to victim). > [Makes the Rowan Ring usable under VteS rules (no paralysis).] See above. > > * Werewolf Pack: is not unique, and add text: "Can prevent one damage > each combat. During the controller's untap phase, if the Pack has less > than 3 lives, add one from the blood bank." > [Wallpaper fix] Is a fairly rubbishy ally, but only letting it prevent one damage is a bit of a let down for the Garou who regenerate almost as fast as The Crow (now I'm dead, now I'm not). -- James Coupe "It's not easy having a good time - even smilimg makes my face ache"

Robert Goudie <robert...@studio.disney.com> writes: > > > > * No upper limit to the library deck size. > > [the number of players is rarely known beforehand, and people > > like to > > experiment with deck design, i.e. build large decks] > > You are aware that this is incompatible with the Sabbat withdrawal > rules, aren't you? You either need to alter your rule or add another > house rule ignoring/altering the Sabbat withdrawal format. Yeah, I've added added a section to ignore the Sabbat rule. Never liked it myself. > > * VteS card texts are used for Jyhad cards. > > [makes the game play uniform for people with cards from different > > sets, > > and the VteS texts are better in most cases] > > > > This is already part of the official rulings and errata. Hmmm... ok, maybe I've missed it, I'll have to read through the official errata once more. > > * Weapon strikes are never hand strikes (even though the damage may > > be based on hand damage). Strikes usings cards that do not specifically > > mention hand damage are not hand strikes. Ranged damage is never hand > > damage. [The Rules Team is very confused about what is "hand damage" and > > what isn't, and has thrown common sense out the window. The definition > > above may need to be modified to take some special cards into account(?)] Yeah, I found a section on hand damage in the Sabbat errata list (why is it there instead of the VteS errata list / rules?). > > * Concealed Weapon: does not require Obfuscate. > > [Wallpaper fix, this seems to have been the original intention of the card] > While this is a good fix, it inadvertantly makes the Nosferatu weaker by > making the ability to disguise or conceal a weapon a much more > accessable ability. I don't see that as much of a problem, CW is still limited with regards to DW (cost/damage limits and must be played at start of combat). I don't see it as hurting Nosferatu much, they are better off using Potence/Animalism anyway (IMHO). Malks are a better candidate for hidden weapon users... > > * Form of Mist: the superior version counts as an action modifier, so > > only one may be used on a given action. > > [Fix for semi-degenerate FoM decks] > > Probably not a good idea to muddy the waters with an action modifier > that can be played during combat. The best fix here is to simply make > the rule about unneeded stealth apply at all times. With this rule in > place a minion would be prevented from playing the superior FoM unless > there was a block. As part of this ruling, "enter combat with" actions > would be considered "complete" if the action is not blocked. The > completion would occur before the resulting combat. Or to put it > another way, the "enter combat with" is the action not the combat > itself. Hmmm, I'm not sure I follow you here. Since FoM is used in combat, there almost always was a block preceeding it (playing FoM in a rush combat doesn't make much sense). The intention here wasn't to actually make FoM as action modifier, just to limit it to one per action. We've seen FoM decks around here that border on the degenerate ("bleed - block - FoM - continue bleed" until the prey has no untapped intercept-capable minions left or declines to block). This - like a lot of the house rules on my list - are experimental, so all opinions are very welcome. > > * Monocle of Clarity: may not be used to ask questions about the > > future or outside the game. Metaquestions (trick questions about > > questions) are not allowed. > > [Fix for degenerate uses of the Monocle] > > The current fixes for Monocle are sufficient and superior to the ones > listed above. Questions about the future are fine as long as the future > pertains only to the current turn. Hmph, so they are. Been a while since I checked them, and the current errata looks very usable. Thanks. Ok, so here is the latest incarnation: - - - - - - - - "Vampire: the Eternal Struggle" House Rules These are an evolving set of house rules for the Helsinki Jyhad/VteS player community. These are additions and changes to the official rules and errata, with the purpose of fixing some things that are "wrong" with the official rules. The term "wallpaper fix" means a change to make a useless card usable. In addition to these, the latest official errata and the official VteS rules are in effect. General Rules and Definitions * No upper limit to the library deck size. [The number of players is rarely known beforehand, and people like to experiment with deck design, i.e. build large decks] * VteS card texts are used for Jyhad cards. [Official rule, repeated here for clarity.] * Political cards burned by you for extra votes during your own turn are not replaced until the end of your minion phase. Political cards burned by other Meths are replaced after the vote resolves, as normal. [DCI tournament rule, fix for degenerate vote push decks] * A minion may not attempt the same action more than once per turn, regardless of subsequent untapping. Definition of "same action": For the purposes of cards that prohibit the "same action", if an action defined in the rule book (bleed, equip, recruit ally, recruit retainer, political action, hunt, encounter vampire in torpor, leave torpor) is accomplished more than once, it is considered the same action even if the target changes or a different action card is used. Likewise, any such action accomplished without a card is considered the same as the same action accomplished with an action card. [DCI tournament rule, fix for degenerate untap decks] * Action cards and Action Modifiers can always be played by the acting Minion, even if it is not the controlling Methuselah's turn. Reaction cards can be played by Minions controlled by a Methuselah other than the Methuselah controlling the acting Minion, regardless of whose turn it is. [Common-sense ruling, mainly for Malkavian Madness Network situations] * Stealth may only be increased when necessary, i.e. when blocked by a minion with sufficient intercept. [Fix for a recent completely brain-dead Rules Team ruling] * Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged damage-dealing innate strike. Hand Damage - damage from a hand strike. (e.g. damage from a Bastard Sword is not hand damage) [Official rule, repeated here for clarity] * Strikes which say "do damage based on melee weapons" can do damage even if the melee weapon doesn't normally do damage. Notably, Lucky Blow, Undead Strength, etc. can be used with Rowan Ring. [Common-sense ruling] * The forced withdraw rule from the Sabbat expansion is not used. [This rule -- which forces you to withdraw from the game if you run out of library cards -- is idiotic since you can still win even though you have no library cards left.] Specific Cards * Chainsaw: does 3 damage each strike, only usable once each round. [Wallpaper fix] * Concealed Weapon: does not require Obfuscate. [Wallpaper fix, this seems to have been the original intention of the card] * Form of Mist: the superior version can only be used once on a given action. [Fix for semi-degenerate FoM decks] * Rowan Ring: replace card text with: "Strike: opposing vampire goes into torpor." (does not transfer to victim). [Makes the Rowan Ring usable under VteS rules (no paralysis).] * Werewolf Pack: is not unique, and add text: "Can prevent one damage each combat. During the controller's untap phase, if the Pack has less than 3 lives, add one from the blood bank." [Wallpaper fix] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Petri Wessman <or...@akumiitti.fi> Last modified: Wed Jun 4 15:12:38 EEST 1997

Robert Goudie wrote: > Petri Wessman wrote: > > * Form of Mist: the superior version counts as an action modifier, so > > only one may be used on a given action. > > [Fix for semi-degenerate FoM decks] > > Probably not a good idea to muddy the waters with an action modifier > that can be played during combat. There is already one action modifier that can only be played in combat: Ritual of the Bitter Rose (due to the change in text in the VtES version). > The best fix here is to simply make > the rule about unneeded stealth apply at all times. With this rule in > place a minion would be prevented from playing the superior FoM unless > there was a block. As part of this ruling, "enter combat with" actions > would be considered "complete" if the action is not blocked. The > completion would occur before the resulting combat. Or to put it > another way, the "enter combat with" is the action not the combat > itself. This would remove the ability to use FoM to restart a successful Bum's Rush, but would not remove the ability to play multiple FoM on a single action (the way the "FoM is an action mod" would). [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe (ja...@bgrace.demon.co.uk) wrote: : Combat Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage : based on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged : damage dealing innate strike. : This is simple to follow. Striking for hand damage is, obviously, hand : damage. : Striking with Thrown Sewer Lid isn't (ranged strike, not based on hand : damage). : Blood Rage isn't (close range, but not based on hand damage) : Undead Strength is hand damage (close range, based on hand damage) : unless used on bastard sword (that nullifies it because using a weapon : means it isn't) Can anyone tell me what the current rule for cards like Burning Wrath is? Burning Wrath does damage (aggravated) based on hand damage ("Strike: +2 aggravated hand damage" I believe is the exact wording). When DS first released the card, it was clearly ruled to be _not_ a hand strike and therefore not modifiable further by Undead Strength. Is this still the case? By the definition above, it is a hand strike, yes? <repeat actions> : Is this really such a problem for other people? We hardly ever play : Rutor's Hands or Freak Drives. We play Rutor's Hands and Freak Drives, etc frequently, but it has never been a problem. Rutor's Hand is powerful, but an easily identifiable threat and relatively easy to block. Freak Drives and the like simply aren't abused because then the game isn't as much fun for anyone. I find them most useful for other things like "Stanislava plays Restoration to gain 3, Freak Drives, then bleeds, Conditioned, with Earth Control for 2 stealth to oust you." It fits under DCI rules, even though we have never, nor will ever use them. : Especially Reverend Blackwood using Theft of Vitae (stupid bloke we met : in a shop). I have a bit of a problem with this one, too. Why can't the raw power of Blackwood's Thaumaturgy ability cause Theft to do damage on top of stealing blood? The ruling is unnecessary, cluttering, and, in my mind, is overruled by the card text, which is perfectly clear. -Dave Green Errata? Who needs it if you have a brain and a mind to use it with.

>When DS first released the card, it was >clearly ruled to be _not_ a hand strike and therefore not >modifiable further by Undead Strength. Is this still the >case? By the definition above, it is a hand strike, yes? Yes, but. Undead Strength can't modify it, because Wrath is a strike, and so is Undead Strength. Undead Strength only works on your hand damage. --- Liam Burke "The Democrats can't pull it together if we rip them apart." -overheard

Dave Green wrote: > James Coupe (ja...@bgrace.demon.co.uk) wrote: > : Combat Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage > : based on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged > : damage dealing innate strike. > > Can anyone tell me what the current rule for cards like Burning > Wrath is? Burning Wrath does damage (aggravated) based on hand > damage ("Strike: +2 aggravated hand damage" I believe is the > exact wording). When DS first released the card, it was > clearly ruled to be _not_ a hand strike and therefore not > modifiable further by Undead Strength. Is this still the > case? By the definition above, it is a hand strike, yes? It has always been ruled to be a hand strike, and continues to be a hand strike under the definition above (which was worded in such a way as to maintain the hand-strike-ness of Burning Wrath). > : Especially Reverend Blackwood using Theft of Vitae (stupid bloke we met > : in a shop). > > I have a bit of a problem with this one, too. Why can't the > raw power of Blackwood's Thaumaturgy ability cause Theft to do > damage on top of stealing blood? The ruling is unnecessary, > cluttering, and, in my mind, is overruled by the card text, > which is perfectly clear. For the same reason that Undead Strength didn't add to a Rowan Ring (melee weapon) strike. Non-damage dealing strikes can't be made to deal damage. While the opposite ruling may be clear and less cluttering if considered in isolation, this particular ruling was made on the basis of precedent. Not following precedent when it is available is cluttering, and in this case, following precedent doesn't cause any problems nor additional new cluttering. [ quoted text not captured ]

JlB1925 wrote: > > >When DS first released the card, it was > >clearly ruled to be _not_ a hand strike and therefore not > >modifiable further by Undead Strength. Is this still the > >case? By the definition above, it is a hand strike, yes? > Yes, but. Undead Strength can't modify it, because Wrath is a strike, and > so is Undead Strength. Undead Strength only works on your hand damage. Correct. [ quoted text not captured ]

"L. Scott Johnson" <vte...@regency.wizards.com> wrote: > Dave Green wrote: > > Can anyone tell me what the current rule for cards like Burning Wrath > > is? Burning Wrath does damage (aggravated) based on hand damage > > ("Strike: +2 aggravated hand damage" I believe is the exact wording). > > When DS first released the card, it was clearly ruled to be _not_ a > > hand strike and therefore not modifiable further by Undead Strength. > > Is this still the case? By the definition above, it is a hand strike, > > yes? > > It has always been ruled to be a hand strike, and continues to be a hand > strike under the definition above (which was worded in such a way as to > maintain the hand-strike-ness of Burning Wrath). Perhaps it's an oversight on Dave's part, but Burning Wrath would _never_ be modifiable by Undead Strength since they're both strikes, and only one strike can be used during a Declare Strike phase. Perhaps Wolf Claws was intended instead of Undead Strength... --- Eric Pettersen pe...@diderot.ucsf.edu (NeXTmail capable)