Where are the Mata Hari decks?

OK come on, surely by now someone has figured out a way to break Mata Hari?? I've been considering two ideas for Her Royal Brokenness: Mata and Setite weenies vote deck; bring out Ventrue Headquarters and/or Demonstration and/or Feraille. Mata and her obf/ser weenie buddies go Free States Ranting. Steal vampires with Form of Corruption / Temptation. Or hell just KRC people to death if you want to be boring. Mata has access to massive amounts of stealth, can vote then Freak and do something else (I'm not entirely sure what, Edged Illusion maybe), and can Sleep Unseen at the end of her last action so people (without AUS) can't come around knocking on her door with a Red List warrant. Mata ally madness deck; Mata becomes charismatic and a perfectionist and invites along a muddled vampire hunter, escaped mental patient, ambrosius, some ghouls from plaza moreria, and anyone else she can think of. They have a great time harassing vampires, since they're all Unmasked. The FBI special affairs division are in on the act, and the allies kept getting Left for Dead (yes this combo works, I got a ruling on it). Throw in some Gehenna events that screw with vampires, add some Leather Jackets, stir and season to taste. Don't forget the action cards Mata can play too; she can dig important cards out of your deck with Sibyl's Tongue, she can recycle useful cards with Sudario Refraction, and if she does go to the bin, she can even dig herself out with Recure of the Homeland! There are also some clan-required combat cards that could provide useful. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are only two of these rare little guys in the whole game: Reality Mirror (!Malk) and Leathery Hide (!Gangrel). Both have obvious uses; the latter is probably more useful and acts as basically Soak at superior (but can be played in multiples). Has anyone come up with any cool deck ideas for this insane vampire? Anarchs? Gargoyle spawning? Mad props if it involves Assimites and/or Web of Knives and/or her inbuilt Quietus. MAD MAD props if it involves putting out Storm Sewers, Mass Reality, Island of Yiaros, giving her a Sword of Troile and watching her chop people up :D

> OK come on, surely by now someone has figured out a way to break Mata > Hari?? I'm not up for trying ways to break things.... but I have designed this deck with the view to testing it out shortly. Deck Name: Mata and Friends Created By: J Description: Mata Hari gets loads of allies. Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 9, Max: 28, Avg: 4.58) --------------------------------------------- 5 Mata Hari aus for qui CHI OBF 7, Ravnos:4 1 Roger Farnsworth aus OBF 4, Malkavian antitribu:3 1 Jeffrey Mullins cel OBF 4, Gangrel antitribu:4 1 Milo aus obf 3, Malkavian:3 1 Ali Kar obf qui 3, Assamite:3 1 Krid obf 2, Nosferatu:3 1 Hanna Redmonds obf tha 2, Caitiff:3 1 Denette Stensen obf 2, Gangrel antitribu:4 Library: (75 cards) ------------------- Master (11 cards) 4 Blood Doll 1 Charisma 1 Fortitude 4 Memories of Mortality 1 Secure Haven Action (3 cards) 2 Entrenching 1 Sensory Deprivation Action Modifier (24 cards) 5 Cloak the Gathering 3 Faceless Night 8 Freak Drive 5 Lost in Crowds 3 Spying Mission Combat (15 cards) 3 Boxed In 4 Concealed Weapon 4 Dodge 4 Fake Out Ally (9 cards) 1 Amam the Devourer (Bane Mummy) 2 Muddled Vampire Hunter 2 Renegade Garou 2 Rock Cat 1 Vagabond Mystic 2 War Ghoul Retainers (2 cards) 1 J.S Simmons Esq 1 Tasha Morgan Equipment (8 cards) 2 Leather Jacket 1 Meat Cleaver 1 Meat Hook 4 Wooden Stake Events (2 cards) 1 Blood Weakens 1 FBI Special Affairs Division --> J

> Deck Name: Mata and Friends > Created By: J > Description: Mata Hari gets loads of allies. > > Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 9, Max: 28, Avg: 4.58) > --------------------------------------------- > 5 Mata Hari aus for qui CHI OBF 7, Ravnos:4 > 1 Roger Farnsworth aus OBF 4, Malkavian antitribu:3 > 1 Jeffrey Mullins cel OBF 4, Gangrel antitribu:4 > 1 Milo aus obf 3, Malkavian:3 > 1 Ali Kar obf qui 3, Assamite:3 > 1 Krid obf 2, Nosferatu:3 > 1 Hanna Redmonds obf tha 2, Caitiff:3 > 1 Denette Stensen obf 2, Gangrel antitribu:4 > > Library: (75 cards) > ------------------- > Master (11 cards) > 4 Blood Doll > 1 Charisma > 1 Fortitude > 4 Memories of Mortality > 1 Secure Haven I like it. But I think this would work well with 3 or 4 Left for Dead, no? Arson would also work well, especially with Memories of Mortality. Love the Rock Cat... hadn't thought of that one. Pity I don't own any :( A Mata Hari / Rock Cat / Gehenna-madness deck could be interesting. Vamps with cap less than 4 can't strike in the first round when in combat with Rock Cat; if Wormwood + many events has turned every vampire on the table into a 1 or 2 cap, that should mean your Rock Cat should have a pretty easy time of things, especially seeing as they whack vamps for 3. If one of them carks it, play Left for Dead, bring em back for another go. FBI division punishes vampires who manage to take down an ally. Slow Withering and Torpid Blood should shut people down pretty effectively once the engine kicks into gear. Use Sudario Refraction to get back key cards if things go wonky. Oust with Fame/Dragonbound. Mmmm... *rubs hands together*...

Dasein <dasei...@hotmail.com> wrote: : I've been considering two ideas for Her Royal Brokenness: Hardly broken. Most ideas so far are pretty tricky, unstable, but undoubtedly fun. Red List attribute should keep her pretty well in check. Also, her disciplines are quite balanced. Consider her with tha/THA or pre/PRE. : Mata and Setite weenies vote deck; bring out Ventrue Headquarters : and/or Demonstration and/or Feraille. Mata and her obf/ser weenie : buddies go Free States Ranting. She certainly is one of the best candidates for a Free State + Edged Illusion deck. Haven't quite yet finished working on a deck like this.. I'm still pondering how to make an Ankara Citadel+Path of Paradox combo fit in. : MAD MAD props if it involves putting out Storm Sewers, Mass Reality, : Island of Yiaros, giving her a Sword of Troile and watching her chop : people up :D Sword of Troile, Art of Pain, Depravity.. Groundfighting would really be the thing, but anarchifying Mata Hari takes Anarch Secessions. Disengage should fit in at least. Taste of Vitaes. Sup. Auspex and Telepathic Trackings, or Drum of Xipe Totec and Psyche to make sure nobody gets away too easily. In the works, in the works.. //T

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dasein wrote: | OK come on, surely by now someone has figured out a way to break Mata | Hari?? | | I've been considering two ideas for Her Royal Brokenness: It's always wise to be able to demonstrate that a vampire is broken prior to claiming that a vampire is broken. After playtesting Bloodlines, we finally came to the conclusion that it was darn near impossible to "break" a vampire, especially a reasonably big one. The details are a bit hazy, but Agaitas is one of the only vamps I can remember whose initial design had to be trimmed SHARPLY in several areas. Why? Because vampires are fragile. Rush them, they die. Sense Dep them, they stay edge-on forever. Banish them while they're low. PTO, Pentex Subversion, Riddle Phantastique... take your pick. It's way too easy to neutralize a single vampire; this is why it's so hard to play One Big Monster decks. Also, vampires are unique. To give the example most commonly decried as broken, you only get one Arika. She either takes a ton of actions per turn, or you bring out supporting cast for her -- but you still only get one Arika. She's very good, largely _because_ she can take a ton of stealthy actions per turn and thus can simulate being three 4-caps quite effectively... but she's still only one minion. Everything above except Banishment and PTO works on her just fine. I'm sure it's possible to break a vamp if you glue on enough free specials, or if you make a 4-cap with 3 superiors. But honestly, you really have to go off the deep end before a vampire is going to be broken. Looking at Mata, she's got 7 points of disciplines, 2 votes, a big honkin' special, and a big honkin' disability. Not bad for a 7-cap; looks balanced from here. The special, like Ian Forestal's, is difficult to quantize, but it's worth noting that much like Ian can't cram all 20+ disciplines in a single deck effectively, Mata Hari can't effectively use all 18+ clans' toys at once, either. | Mata and Setite weenies vote deck; bring out Ventrue Headquarters | and/or Demonstration and/or Feraille. Mata and her obf/ser weenie | buddies go Free States Ranting. Steal vampires with Form of Corruption Weenie vamps don't do Free States Rant all that well. You want at least some 5-caps for the job. Also, your vote starts at only 2 in favor and Mata doesn't have Presence. So you need one extra weenie to go bleeding first to obtain the Edge, or you need to start including Freak Drive -- something the Setites aren't noted for. Attempting to rely on the various vote-gainer locations looks good at first, but you have to get these at the top of your deck or you're going to be boned. You might do better to run a !Malk or two as backup and include some Sibyl's Tongue to fetch your votey-things. Form of Corruption will not work all that well to steal vampires, since you have to figure out a way to get a vampire empty during YOUR master phase. As soon as you put a Form in play, your prey will typically stop bleeding and start killing backwards as best he can. Also note that you need someone with OBF ser for this, because Mata can't use that card. | / Temptation. Or hell just KRC people to death if you want to be | boring. Mata has access to massive amounts of stealth, can vote then KRC people with what votes, again? Your 2 + the vote card aren't going to pass it against a hostile table, and if you drop lots of KRC that's exactly what you'll see. Ventrue HQ only works once. | Freak and do something else (I'm not entirely sure what, Edged Illusion | maybe), and can Sleep Unseen at the end of her last action so people | (without AUS) can't come around knocking on her door with a Red List | warrant. Sleep Unseen is a very nice card, but adding it into the mix along with everything else above is going to hurt. Forget it for a single turn and she'll vanish -- her only real defenses are inferior Fortitude *or* Illusions of the Kindred. Leathery Hide is ... amusing, but a card that nobody else in your deck can play is not a good plan for victory. | Mata ally madness deck; Mata becomes charismatic and a perfectionist | and invites along a muddled vampire hunter, escaped mental patient, | ambrosius, some ghouls from plaza moreria, and anyone else she can | think of. They have a great time harassing vampires, since they're all | Unmasked. The FBI special affairs division are in on the act, and the | allies kept getting Left for Dead (yes this combo works, I got a ruling | on it). Throw in some Gehenna events that screw with vampires, add some | Leather Jackets, stir and season to taste. ...You forgot "Get ousted by stealth/bleed." Come on, if it can't at least make a SHOW of things against your typical OBF/DOM predator, how do you expect to demonstrate that she's broken? At least the Free States Rant deck has the option of putting Ozmo and Mariel in a hunt loop in its own defense. | Don't forget the action cards Mata can play too; she can dig important | cards out of your deck with Sibyl's Tongue, she can recycle useful | cards with Sudario Refraction, and if she does go to the bin, she can | even dig herself out with Recure of the Homeland! Bet those work great for the other guys in your crypt, none of whom can play more than one of those cards at any given time. She'll be seen in some very interesting decks, don't get me wrong. But she's not even close to broken, for the same reasons Ian Forestal isn't... and on another scale, for the same reasons NO vampires are currently broken. Not even Arika. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFCLnLYtQZlu3o7QpERApmPAJ96K4d/RFG62LdX1lQ3jj3NwtrYSACfc/N2 lxF3rTtvEbxMhZXExKxZPfk= =ALP+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

It's too bad Mata Hari is a group 4. Otherwise you could play her and Ian in your crypt and play with 90 randomly selected cards from your collection. Or play with Agaitas, Mata Hari, and Ian and just play with your prey's library. Your whole deck could be Life in the City and Ascendance.

just thought i'd share an amusing tale... On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:51:52 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> scrawled: > >Sleep Unseen is a very nice card, there was this one game, with a baali deck. it played a sleep unseen, mostly just to cycle (it's prey had an aus vamp). that aus vamp put the baali in torpor during it's turn. the cross-table ally wanted to rescue, was unable to rescue the baali, because of the sleep unseen. :) salem http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

Hi All. One question about Mata Hari: Can she play cards that the first sentence is put this card in the acting XXX? It seems to be that Mata Hari plays the card as the XXX clan, so i guess she can play for example Ritual Challenge or Concert Tour...Can she play Blessing of the Name?

"Ashenbach" <Ashe...@iespana.es> wrote in message news:8b63da3e.05030...@posting.google.com... > Hi All. > > One question about Mata Hari: > > Can she play cards that the first sentence is put this card in the > acting XXX? Yes. > It seems to be that Mata Hari plays the card as the XXX > clan, so i guess she can play for example Ritual Challenge or Concert > Tour...Can she play Blessing of the Name? Yes. -- LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (Remove spam trap to reply). V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes. The only problem she will have is with cards whose ongoing effects name a clan. "The Brujah Antitribu with this card..."-kind of stuff. -- Bye, Daneel

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > After playtesting Bloodlines, we finally came to the conclusion that > it was darn near impossible to "break" a vampire, especially a > reasonably big one. The details are a bit hazy, but Agaitas is one > of the only vamps I can remember whose initial design had to be > trimmed SHARPLY in several areas. The original version of Sascha Vykos^ -- where you could draw a card each time another Methuselah played *any card* -- was just wrong, if not totally broken. Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

Yeah, I think I'll give Mata a Chanjelin Ward with Aching Beauty then get an Erebus Mask and perform Art Scams at 2 stealth. And if you want to block. Fine, spend intercept and/or burn pool & blood and then I'll Red Herring.

[ quoted text not captured ] I don't think the Erebus Mask actually does anything for Mata Hari unless she changes her clan. She can equip with it due to her special, but she remains a Ravnos and therefore doesn't get the stealth from it. See also Sword of Judgment. The other stuff should work. Matt Morgan

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 [ quoted text not captured ] I like the idea of you using a 9-pool vampire to gain only 2 pool per turn, without actually helping oust your prey. Go for it. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFCLzO+tQZlu3o7QpERAuWqAKCNl7CB3ZfVMWy67fKZkINWPd9LiwCg7QrH JXlcQsx6b2NQlDizHnT4u24= =Xa/J -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Kevin M. wrote: | Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: | |>After playtesting Bloodlines, we finally came to the conclusion that |>it was darn near impossible to "break" a vampire, especially a |>reasonably big one. The details are a bit hazy, but Agaitas is one |>of the only vamps I can remember whose initial design had to be |>trimmed SHARPLY in several areas. | | The original version of Sascha Vykos^ -- where you could draw a card each | time another Methuselah played *any card* -- was just wrong, if not | totally broken. Oops, yep. We noted that one before trying to play her though, so I don't have the horrific memories I do of Agaitas + Infernal Pursuit + Distraction.... so she doesn't really rise to the top. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFCLzQFtQZlu3o7QpERAmEqAKCFbHuSEgLCsqdU9SC8Rb3AgA0K0QCg9TiP pk4L8Y0t45o77BB0YBRdAxg= =Bryk -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

"J" <gra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1110333237.2...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... >> OK come on, surely by now someone has figured out a way to break Mata >> Hari?? > > I'm not up for trying ways to break things.... What are you?!? A pinko Communist??!!! C'MON! Break stuff!!! Invent a nefarious scheme for controlling the board and bringing your opponents under your vice-grip-like control - all by abusing a card or combo in a way no one would ever have thought of. Having LSJ ban YOUR SICK ABUSUSIVE TACTIC before the entire metagame collapses is the ultimate target and goal: go for it, damn you!!! It's the "CCG way". *srk*...not up for trying ways to break things..../*SARCASM*/ Well, maybe we should all just play NICE with each other and love the whole world and stuff. Yea, that's the ticket. :-)

I only play VTES once every 3 months, so I get rusty on the rules and the purpose of winning, etc. Maybe since I've been playing more World of Warcraft lately I've been mislead to believe each action should be a long quest with the side benefit of gaining wealth and rare items ;-)

"charlotte vtes" <vtesroc...@yahoo.com> escribió en el mensaje news:1110384370.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Aching beauty only works if the vampire is toreador while acting. So you should start to pack all those portraits and resplendent protectors

> The original version of Sascha Vykos^ -- where you could draw a card each > time another Methuselah played *any card* -- was just wrong, if not > totally broken. First, it was more broken than that: It didn't say "other". Second, it was written in the playtest instructions that it was supposed to be Master cards only. Third, my group missed that for round 1, also. :) -- Brian Talking about Gehenna playtest... Wow, eighteen months already... I thought it was only 15 so far...

[ quoted text not captured ] And a few copies of the Ericyes Fragments :D

Er maybe I should have made it a little clearer that I wasn't being 100% serious in that post.... I totally agree that no vampires are really broken. For many of the reasons you mentioned... plus one-vampire "trick" decks have a big problem with "this vampire can't block" cards like Seduction (with DOM) or Elder Impersonation (with OBF); they can ruin your whole day. In my post I was more talking about whacky decks or unusual combos people might have figured out, that no other crypt in the game could pull off (mainly involving interactions of various master cards with clan requirements). They may turn out to be solid decks eventually, who knows. btw, I don't think Red List is a "big honkin disability". Far from it. Rush decks will have rush in their hand anyway. Non-rush decks are unlikely to have threatening combat to do anything with the rush (considering she has for and OBF for combat defence, and they have to spend a master phase action AND a blood to rush, they may end up losing more blood than you in the process). Trophy cards are unlikely to be used unless by specific decks designed around marking people as Red List; and assuming they can do that (i.e. the deck is half-decent), there's not much disadvantage in being Red List in the first place. what do people think? This hasn't been discussed yet and could deserve a thread of its own.

On 9 Mar 2005 17:29:54 -0800, Dasein <dasei...@hotmail.com> wrote: > btw, I don't think Red List is a "big honkin disability". Far from it. > Rush decks will have rush in their hand anyway. Non-rush decks are > unlikely to have threatening combat to do anything with the rush > (considering she has for and OBF for combat defence, and they have to > spend a master phase action AND a blood to rush, they may end up losing > more blood than you in the process). Trophy cards are unlikely to be > used unless by specific decks designed around marking people as Red > List; and assuming they can do that (i.e. the deck is half-decent), > there's not much disadvantage in being Red List in the first place. > > what do people think? > This hasn't been discussed yet and could deserve a thread of its own. Being Red List reads in practice: "Rush decks will never run out of Rush cards when Rushing you. If your vampire is empty or low on blood, she goes to torpor." -- Bye, Daneel

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:34:08 GMT, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] i don't know about you, but i found when playing rush decks on tables with other rush decks, sometimes you jammed on the RUSH cards because everyone else was rushing you. kind of implies if they're using the red list trait, they'll jam on rush. if they don't use the red list thing, it doesn't matter if she's red list or not. although, yeah, the red-list trait could be used to 'smooth out' unfortunate shuffling where you don't manage to draw rush cards. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Won't help. Aching Beauty in play still won't treat her as a Toreador -- only the card she plays as a Toreador treats her as a Toreador. -- LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

<firstco...@aol.com> wrote: > -- Brian > Talking about Gehenna playtest... > Wow, eighteen months already... > I thought it was only 15 so far... Well, like 17 1/2 months. Shoot. I thought it was 18 1/2, but whatever. :P [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 05:32:51 -0800, "Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> scrawled: ><firstco...@aol.com> wrote: >> -- Brian >> Talking about Gehenna playtest... >> Wow, eighteen months already... >> I thought it was only 15 so far... > >Well, like 17 1/2 months. > >Shoot. I thought it was 18 1/2, but whatever. :P uh-oh.... no, wait, maybe if you allow dicussion of printed cards that are functionally unchanged from their first presentation in playtest _inside_ the 18 month window, and only forbid discussion of cards that changed during playtest for that first 18 months... [ quoted text not captured ]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dasein wrote: | btw, I don't think Red List is a "big honkin disability". Far from it. | Rush decks will have rush in their hand anyway. Non-rush decks are | unlikely to have threatening combat to do anything with the rush | (considering she has for and OBF for combat defence, and they have to | spend a master phase action AND a blood to rush, they may end up losing | more blood than you in the process). Trophy cards are unlikely to be | used unless by specific decks designed around marking people as Red | List; and assuming they can do that (i.e. the deck is half-decent), | there's not much disadvantage in being Red List in the first place. | | what do people think? | This hasn't been discussed yet and could deserve a thread of its own. And so it shall have one. The question: Is Red List a significant disadvantage? Your view (please correct me if I state it wrong) is that Rush decks are going to have Rush cards and will get you anyway, and non-Rush decks will not have threatening combat, therefore it's not a disability. Trophy cards don't add any incentive to rush the Red List guys. In sequence... - -- Rush decks do have Rush cards and so can get you anyway. But often a Rush deck's hand becomes jammed with 7 combat cards, and he will need to ~ cycle; your minion's existence gives the deck a light of hope in its darkness. I wouldn't be surprised to see it done cross-table occasionally. - -- Non-Rush decks are not automatically non-combat decks. There are many varieties of non-Rush decks that include significant combat; intercept wall decks, bruise/bleed, and bruise/vote are the top three. None of these decks include much Rush; some include absolutely none. Against all these decks, your Red List minion is a huge disadvantage since it adds a free combat option for them that they can use either as needed or as opportune. - -- Non-combat decks are the last variant; these decks don't really care about your minion being Red List. Except, of course, that anyone can strike hands-for-1, and when 4 minions jump you and punch for 1 each, then your 3-blood minion is going to either visit Happy Torpor Land or burn some of his precious combat defense. - -- Trophy cards won't matter, you're right. Not unless your minion is at 0 blood and just sitting there looking tasty, which is not all THAT common. Overall, what I see is that a minion being Red List gives EVERYONE a better shot against him, but it's only one particular class of decks that benefits greatly; the fighters that aren't based around Rush. However, with the addition of more and more combat to the game, the days when a deck can include no combat (or only combat defense) and not just survive but win are starting to dwindle... and this will cause that second class of decks to steadily increase. So right now? I think it's a noticeable disadvantage to play Red List, but influencing the minion doesn't mean it'll die instantly. Down the road, Red List is going to become more and more of a disadvantage, as more and more people include ways to hit back in their decks. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFCMh/1tQZlu3o7QpERAmuFAJ9/ZcXujUcdX+NwcHvjt66GhhLaXgCcCshx +qRAjj1X/Tfyq1qy7Kmaulk= =Cmmt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:47:17 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >So right now? I think it's a noticeable disadvantage to play Red List, >but influencing the minion doesn't mean it'll die instantly. Down the >road, Red List is going to become more and more of a disadvantage, as >more and more people include ways to hit back in their decks. Adding up to Derek's very reasonable points, I see the Red List trait this way: it is as huge a disability as you want it to be. To ilustrate this notion, let's see the red list vampires available for now. Just looking for their disciplines, one can note that most have OBF, so you get less combats per game happening if you play plenty of stealth: Mata Hari, 7, aus for qui CHI OBF, Ravnos, 4, [KMW] Rabbat, The Sewer Goddess, 7, pot ANI FOR OBF, Nosferatu, 4, [KMW] Tariq, The Silent (ADV), 7, cel AUS FOR OBF QUI, Assamite, 2, [KMW] Alexis Sorokin, 8, for CEL CHI OBF PRO, Ravnos, 4, [KMW] Petaniqua, 9, chi AUS DAI DEM OBF THA, Malkavian, 4, [KMW] Petaniqua (ADV), 9, chi AUS DAI DEM OBF THA, Baali, 4, [KMW] Kemintiri (ADV), 10, aus dom OBF PRE SER THA, Followers of Set, 2, [KMW] Enkidu, The Noah, 11, for ANI CEL OBF POT PRO, Gangrel Antitribu, 4, [KMW] Secure Haven is better when you have less chances of being blocked. There's still Sleep Unseen, though I don't like to rely on rushers not having [aus] or [AUS]. This one has [obf]: Count Germaine (ADV), 8, obf CEL FOR POT PRE, Brujah, 4, [KMW] and this one has two "block fails" cards available and +1 "permastealth" when merged: Ambrogino Giovanni (ADV), 9, aus DOM NEC POT THA, Giovanni, 2, [KMW] That's a total of 10 Red List vampires very difficult to block if one uses them to act, and MEANS to ACT, not just "attempt to". These others are another cup of tea: Jayne Jonestown, 2, PRE, Brujah Antitribu, 4, [KMW] Dylan (ADV), 6, aus cel dai dom pro FOR, Ventrue Antitribu, 2, [KMW] Valerius Maior, Hell`s Fool (ADV), 7, nec pre AUS DAI DOM THA, Tremere Antitribu, 4, [KMW] Valerius Maior, Hell`s Fool, 7, nec pre AUS DAI DOM THA, Tremere, 4, [KMW] They will badly need combat defense either way. However, note that they have good defensive options, from S:CE and prevention to double-dodge and immunity to aggravated damage. And Valerius even gets out of the List if merged. That's not to say the Red List trait is too easy to overcome. What I'm trying to point out is that they're not difficult to defend either *if you plan accordingly*. Any combination of Secure Haven, transient "don't rush me" cards (Secret Passage, the aforementioned Sleep Unseen), solid combat defense and Priority Shift (provided you have another titled minion out) could suffice, in theory. Even if you'd be forced to spend precious combat defense before getting a more permanent, reliable source of overcoming the trait, you're cycling, and your chances of actually drawing a Secure Haven or Priority Shift increase. And this "module" would help against any rusher, most of the time, no matter if you have a Red List minion out or not (Priority Shift aside). On the other hand, I don't like to ease things for my predator. I'd be inclined to include any form of quick bloodgain to avoid situations like the one previously described - a horde of minions punching for 1 each to take advantage of my low on blood red lister. Most of the time I wouldn't care if my predator has many rush cards or not. I always assume I'll run the risk of getting a predator who is exactly capable of foiling my defenses in combat, Red List or not. Maybe that's because I play in a very combat-heavy environment, at least for casual play, so packing (and focusing on) a type or two of combat defense is a must, while trying to splash different combat defense strategies is guaranteed torpor - most of the time you'll have a dodge when you needed a maneuver, or a prevention card when you needed a S:CE. Metagame issue, obviously, but that matches somehow the direction this game is going, as pointed out by Derek. All in all, it points out to one thing. You're Red List? Act quick and dirty, try to gain lots of blood as soon as possible, and try to be faster than your predator. If you manage this, you'll get better chances to draw what you need to survive up to the endgame. Just sitting out there defending is certain doom. For cases where you're not Red List and fear being added to the List, remember that your predator (assuming he's the one adding you) will not be able to mark you and rush at the same turn (cornercase situations like the Madness Network aside). So you have one full turn to do something, from shifting priorities to Banishing his best combat vampire, from rushing him yourself to Sensory Deprivating him. I guess each vampire merits his own approach in that regard. Maybe it's a chance for another round of Strategy Articles, like the ones based on Events, this time for each Red Lister? Thoughts? Forgive me if I wrote some bullshit, I'm somewhat in a hurry, and very curious to see how I can handle some Red Listers. Ambrogino ADV will surely be my first try, as appropriate. best, Fabio "Sooner" Macedo V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil Giovanni Clan Newsletter Editor ----------------------------------------------------- V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now) http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/

> Your view (please correct me if I state it wrong) is that Rush decks are > going to have Rush cards and will get you anyway, and non-Rush decks > will not have threatening combat, therefore it's not a disability. > Trophy cards don't add any incentive to rush the Red List guys. For what it's worth, Derek, I think he mean that trophy cards are unlikely to be included in decks that don't go out of their way to make vampires red list on their own. As such, a random red list minion on the table is unlikely to have greater incentive to be rushed based simply upon the existence of trophy cards. . . because they won't be included in all likelihood. But that's just my take on his view. However, the more general statement Derek made about combat defense not being enough. . . that's true. Oh, for the days of l33thaxxorstealthbleed! :) Ankur

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:37:37 -0500, Ankur Gupta <agu...@cs.duke.edu> wrote: >> Your view (please correct me if I state it wrong) is that Rush decks are >> going to have Rush cards and will get you anyway, and non-Rush decks >> will not have threatening combat, therefore it's not a disability. >> Trophy cards don't add any incentive to rush the Red List guys. > >For what it's worth, Derek, I think he mean that trophy cards are unlikely >to be included in decks that don't go out of their way to make vampires >red list on their own. As such, a random red list minion on the table is >unlikely to have greater incentive to be rushed based simply upon the >existence of trophy cards. . . because they won't be included in all >likelihood. >But that's just my take on his view. >Ankur I also have the impression that most Red List vampires would draw a big target on their heads if they were not Red List, even the ones who have some disabilities in their specials - provided the Red List player builds up to their strengths, and I doubt any average player would play a Red List vampire if not for "abusing" him as much as possible. If I had Rabbat controlled by my predator, I'd rush/Banish/Sensory Deprivate/get hid of her as soon as possible before waiting for him or her to use Hidden Lurker or Rebirth or any other scary thing with Rabbat. So, most of the time it seems there's no need to have trophies available to "incentive" a rusher to select a Red List instead of any other random vampire (exceptions made for those situations where a rush deck would prefer to rush a weenie than some regular target vampire like Arika: Fame + rescue, choosing to hit a vampire with no Fortitude or Presence, and so on). I guess we'll have to wait and see if these situations show up often or not. I don't expect it in my metagame, though. Usually people in here tend to gang up on the bigger threats, no matter if they're more difficult to torporize than any other random support vampire. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray wrote: > The question: Is Red List a significant disadvantage? Yeah, I pretty much agree with you. I mean, granted, most Red List guys are pretty combat viable, and presumably, if you are using a solid Red List minion, you are probably going to have solid combat making rushing you an unattractive proposition, but where Red List *really* is going to hurt you is when you are looking down and kind of knife-edging in a game where you have been looking threatening most of the time, everyone at the table is able to go and get in a fight, even if they are going to, like, sacrifice a single weenie to just punch you for one if it send you to torpor. It also gives people an opportunity to attack you on their terms, should it become important--you have Count Germaine Advanced with an Assault Rifle who is messing up the table. I have weenie Animalism and I manage to draw into a Canine Horde. Likely, I'll Red List you just to eat your gun. I mean, yeah, really potent Rush decks are going to have Rush actions and Haven Uncovereds to play instead of the Red List attacks, but Red List makes opportunistic combat for decks that are packing light combat but no Rush possible, and usually will happen at the least convinient time. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

I'd like to take this opportunity to disagree with Derek Ray. Ah, it's been too long since I've said that... For one, Red List gives you the potential for being able to cycle your combat. You're jammed up on combat cards (or combat defense) and no one will block you? Maybe you're lucky enough that someone will actually pay a blood and an MPA for the privilege of cycling your combat for you. Heck, it's possible that a crosstable ally will also want to cycle combat and he may be able to do something like rush you, cycle maneuvers back and forth, strike with 8 strength knowing you can dodge, then press to continue and you press to end, or something similar. Sure, those situations aren't incredibly likely, but I don't think it's any more unreasonable to think that I might be choking on combat defense than it is to think that a combat deck is choking on combat cards with no rush. It's true that your opponent gets to be proactive about it and you just have to wait for him to rush you. But you have to take combat defense into account when building a deck, so if you can't deal with people rushing you with a Red List action, what makes you think the deck would have been able to deal with standard rush cards? And as for your situation where Mata Hari is sitting at 3 blood and your opponent has 4 weenies rush her... well, assuming all combats are hit-for-hands (not like Mata Hari doesn't have fortitude, but okay), my opponent is spending 8 blood and 4 actions in order to make me lose 5 blood and 1 action (assuming I rescue)? Okay, sign me up. That's a trade I'll make any day even against a weenie predator. A rush for 1 blood damage that costs a blood is better than a bleed for 2 that's free. Sure, Red List will occasionally hurt you. But how many points of a disadvantage do we really think it is? Personally, I put it as a half-point disadvantage. Whereas it seems like Red List vamps gain an extra full point of disciplines/specials. Seems like a good trade...

Fabio "Sooner" wrote: > On the other hand, I don't like to ease things for my predator. I'd be > inclined to include any form of quick bloodgain to avoid situations > like the one previously described - a horde of minions punching for 1 > each to take advantage of my low on blood red lister. Don´t forget that rushing via the RedList marking thing costs a blood, so even if you have 4 weenies available you won´t probably sacrifice them just to punch 4 blood off a minion, because the will more likely than not end up in torpor. In addition to that you have to spend your master phase action to mark the minion, another disadvantage. To sum it up I would think that the occasional crosstable rush will happen less often than you think. -- johannes walch

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:36:52 +0100, Johannes Walch <johanne...@vekn.de> wrote: >Fabio "Sooner" wrote: >> On the other hand, I don't like to ease things for my predator. I'd be >> inclined to include any form of quick bloodgain to avoid situations >> like the one previously described - a horde of minions punching for 1 >> each to take advantage of my low on blood red lister. >Don´t forget that rushing via the RedList marking thing costs a blood, >so even if you have 4 weenies available you won´t probably sacrifice >them just to punch 4 blood off a minion, because the will more likely >than not end up in torpor. I guess it dependes badly on what Red List you're using and how you are packing combat. No one would do weenie swarm against Enkidu, Rabbat or Count Germaine ADV most of the time. Even Ambrogino ADV or Kemintiri ADV could prove difficult to weenie swarm if you've already packed, say, some Theft of Vitae and Apportations to use with them. In addition to that you have to spend your >master phase action to mark the minion, another disadvantage. Yeah, I guess we're not taking into account the master phase action also. This can be roughly compared to Chas Giovanni's disadvantage. I've only seen people wasting a master card and a master phase action when he's bleeding or rushing and they don't have combat defense in hand; most of the time he's able to do what he wants, from Govern down to hunting to whatever. Maybe the issue will be the same with the Red List trait. >To sum it up I would think that the occasional crosstable rush will >happen less often than you think. The problem here is how much of a threat the Red List minion is. That's what bugs me. I'm certain that Ambrogino merged will be rushed at least once per turn, sometimes crosstable (specially when my prey is getting hammered down by 3 bleed at +1 stealth every turn). I wouldn't play him merged with less than a bunch of Spiritual Interventions and Disengages (and still I'd have to worry about Thoughts Betrayed, Psyche!, Hidden Lurker and such). Say, at least 8 S:CE and 6 Disengages. Maybe more of both. The options are to play Red List minions in combat decks (Alexis, Count Germaine ADV, Enkidu and Rabbat strike me as the easiest in that regard) or either play low-key with them, which does not seem likely. Why I'd play Kemintiri ADV or Mata Hari if not for "abusing" their specials? All in all, it still seems to me that making a generalization of how much a disadvantage the Red List trait is could be problematic, since there are so many option with each of them. Maybe it's better to break down the available red listers and estimate how much combat (defense or offense) you'd need to pack to defend them individually. I'm not sure one can put Jayne Jonestown and Enkidu in the same bag when talking how much the Red List trait is going to affect them. [ quoted text not captured ]

Fabio "Sooner" wrote: > I'm not > sure one can put Jayne Jonestown and Enkidu in the same bag when > talking how much the Red List trait is going to affect them. I am not sure about Enkidu (for example). In a one man show rush deck like Enkidu or Karsh the possibility to rush this minion at any moment is probably a big advantage for your opponents. Sure, under normal conditions the wouldn´t do it but what if they know that your hand isn´t in the best state und he is rather low on blood? Then the red list trait is perfect to sink him, and in the one man show deck you cannot afford to loose the minion (because they will most likely diablerize and you don´t have any ways of stopping them) but I can imagine for example a deck with Mata Hari where she goes to torpor and you still have other Ravnos to block the diablerie etc.. -- johannes walch

> > I'm not up for trying ways to break things.... > > What are you?!? A pinko Communist??!!! Yes. Is there a problem? > C'MON! Break stuff!!! Invent a nefarious scheme for controlling the board and > bringing your opponents under your vice-grip-like control - all by abusing a card > or combo in a way no one would ever have thought of. I don't have the time, nor am I that big a geek. --> J

[ quoted text not captured ] That's why I previously said I think the Red List trait is as much a disadvantage as you want it to be. I wouldn't play any of them as a one-man show - these decks are already risky, no matter if the main star is Red List or not. Note that I like these decks, but I always play them knowing that I'm taking some risks other types of decks wouldn't suffer. I can't imagine someone playing Fatima Multi-Rush if she were Red List. It just take someone to have a Canine Horde in hand to arrange any good deal and put an end to Fatima's assault (pun intended). But that's how far I'd go when putting all of them red listers in the same bag. [ quoted text not captured ]

While I don't think there's a way to "break" Mata Hari, I feel like there's some great little combo waiting in the wings, sorta like the Recycling Aurora deck (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/192ad2812869cdba/674e8c8ee999784e?q=%22recycling+aurora%22#674e8c8ee999784e). I've been trying to think of a way to abuse Undying Thirst with Mata Hari. Maybe an Undying Thirst/Camarilla Vitae Slave/Soul Gem deck. But really, Crimson Fury seems like it's absolutely required, and Mata Hari is a Ravnos without Animalism. It might be fun to have Mata Hari block people with Draba, Undying Thirst, and Bloodstorm of Chorizo Tacos, and get an ani weenie into torpor (like Bothwell, Muse, or Leon, for instance, using Daring the Dawn), and have them repeatedly play Crimson Fury at inferior. It's the "I block you once, and now you are forever doomed to useless stupid actions" deck. That deck could simply be done with Baali using Sense the Sin for the intercept, but Mata Hari avoids having to pay the infernal penalty. Doesn't seem worth it somehow. Maybe just building a normal deck but with all sorts of fun clan toys would be fun. Ventrue Headquarters, Hostile Takeover, Art Scam, Waste Management, Political Seizure, Muddles, City Gangrel Connections, Gangrel Conspiracy, Chanjelin Ward, etc... You might be able to make something decent out of that, but it wouldn't be as fun as truly abusing some combo that was never meant to be put together. Maybe a new Mill deck using Slaughterhouses, Dirty Little Secrets, and Scrying of Secrets (but would need a skill card to get superior AUS)... I don't know... there's just so much potential, but nothing that really jumps out at you.

"Johannes Walch" <johanne...@vekn.de> wrote in message news:d11spe$eo9$1...@stu1id2.ip.tesion.net... > Fabio "Sooner" wrote: >> I'm not >> sure one can put Jayne Jonestown and Enkidu in the same bag when >> talking how much the Red List trait is going to affect them. > > (because they will most likely diablerize and you don´t have any ways of > stopping them) but I can imagine for example a deck with Mata Hari where > she goes to torpor and you still have other Ravnos to block the diablerie > etc.. > > -- > johannes walch Crimson Fury or Gangrel Conspiracy could save Enkidu's bacon but I do not like the odds of keeping an entire table at bay from torpor for very long. A lot depends on how much support you have in the chaff vampires. It is probably a lot easier to Banish a low-blood Enkidu than it is to try and kill one off in combat. Would be extremely painful for the owner to have to get him back out again. Generally speaking the Red List penalty is more of a bonus for Enkidu, he is one of the few vampires that can theoretically sustain a number of consecutive combats and leave a trail of bodies behind to boot.. It is important if you rely so heavily on him to stick in some good archetypes and location based equipment cards that can help reduce the chance of becoming vulnerable to a table pile-on. That being said, it doesn't matter how much you try and protect any single vampire, there is always a way to get rid of any vampire and that is what makes the game so enjoyable. He does present an interesting challenge though.

It is > probably a lot easier to Banish a low-blood Enkidu than it is to try and > kill one off in combat. How do you plan on doing that? With one of your handy 12 caps? > That being said, it doesn't matter how much you try and protect any single > vampire, there is always a way to get rid of any vampire and that is what > makes the game so enjoyable. He does present an interesting challenge > though. The best way to get rid of Enkidu is to oust his controller. He has just invested 3 turns and 11 pool influencing him into play, barring inflence enhancers. You should be able to do massive MASSIVE pool damage to him in the mean time. -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

"XZealot" <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> schreef in bericht news:d557vm$5mi$1...@domitilla.aioe.org... [ quoted text not captured ] IME, the best way of playing any one-vamp-deck is including Pentex subversion in your deck.

>> The best way to get rid of Enkidu is to oust his controller. He has just >> invested 3 turns and 11 pool influencing him into play, barring inflence >> enhancers. You should be able to do massive MASSIVE pool damage to him >> in >> the mean time. >> > IME, the best way of playing any one-vamp-deck is including Pentex > subversion in your deck. Yes, that is a good plan, unless some other players take the action to burn it. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <d55clq$gis$1...@domitilla.aioe.org>, XZealot <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> writes: >> IME, the best way of playing any one-vamp-deck is including Pentex >> subversion in your deck. > >Yes, that is a good plan, unless some other players take the action to burn >it. However, there is also the possibility of including it in your one-vamp- deck in order to contest it. Similarly, rush decks used to include Elysium: The Arboretum to contest it. -- James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?" 13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/

James Coupe wrote: > However, there is also the possibility of including it in your one-vamp- > deck in order to contest it. Similarly, rush decks used to include > Elysium: The Arboretum to contest it. ? I prefer rampage to contesting. It愀 more versatile because it helps against any type of problematic location (Secure Haven, Elysium). It doesn愒 cost pool to play and you don愒 have to pay pool to contest. Pool is a scarce resource in combat decks IMHO ;-) Of course it doesn愒 help against the Pentex, but hey in case a Pentex hits your one man show you have to be the bitch of the one removing it :-) waiting for your copy of it without the possibility of cycling ain愒 gonna work I guess. -- johannes walch

"XZealot" <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> wrote in message news:d557vm$5mi$1...@domitilla.aioe.org... > It is >> probably a lot easier to Banish a low-blood Enkidu than it is to try and >> kill one off in combat. > > How do you plan on doing that? With one of your handy 12 caps? I generally only use Banishment in my Arika deck, too hit or miss otherwise. Even then you would still need a few things to go your way. It is not a generic tactic most deck types can use. What I meant was that it is probably the easiest to pull off if the circumstances allow themselves. Protean and Fortitude can allow him to absorb some crazy damage in combat. Outside of combat he is more vulnerable. > The best way to get rid of Enkidu is to oust his controller. He has just > invested 3 turns and 11 pool influencing him into play, barring inflence > enhancers. You should be able to do massive MASSIVE pool damage to him in > the mean time. I can not think of any decks that can do massive pool damage in the first three turns without a ridiculous amount of luck. But that is not saying much, I do not usually play the fast bleed decks. I do agree that the best way to prevent an Enkidu deck from entrenching itself is to hit it hard early, the problem is realising it is an Enkidu deck before it is too late.

"Johannes Walch" <johanne...@vekn.de> schreef in bericht news:d55ihq$3ab$1...@news01.versatel.de... > James Coupe wrote: >> However, there is also the possibility of including it in your one-vamp- >> deck in order to contest it. Similarly, rush decks used to include >> Elysium: The Arboretum to contest it. > > ? I prefer rampage to contesting. It愀 more versatile because it helps > against any type of problematic location (Secure Haven, Elysium). It > doesn愒 cost pool to play and you don愒 have to pay pool to contest. Pool > is a scarce resource in combat decks IMHO ;-) rampage has its own problems (apart from it being a potence card, but you can use arson anyway): it's a 0 stealth action. Smash and Grab is better but requires an anarch Most of the time Rampage/Arson s just another rush, except when you killed everyone except the secured minion. And Elysium is not the problem is was in the beginning of Jyhad: just go Anarch. > > Of course it doesn愒 help against the Pentex, but hey in case a Pentex > hits your one man show you have to be the bitch of the one removing it :-) > waiting for your copy of it without the possibility of cycling ain愒 gonna > work I guess. > Problem is: does anyone REALLY want Enkidu back in the game? Even as a cross table ally, I would need some good reasons (except for the obvious table balance issues) to get the Pentex of him if I couldn't deal with a rushing Enkidu.

>>> probably a lot easier to Banish a low-blood Enkidu than it is to try and >>> kill one off in combat. >> >> How do you plan on doing that? With one of your handy 12 caps? > > I generally only use Banishment in my Arika deck, too hit or miss > otherwise. Arika can not Banish Enkidu. >> The best way to get rid of Enkidu is to oust his controller. He has just >> invested 3 turns and 11 pool influencing him into play, barring inflence >> enhancers. You should be able to do massive MASSIVE pool damage to him >> in >> the mean time. > > I can not think of any decks that can do massive pool damage in the first > three turns without a ridiculous amount of luck. But that is not saying > much, I do not usually play the fast bleed decks. I do agree that the > best way to prevent an Enkidu deck from entrenching itself is to hit it > hard early, the problem is realising it is an Enkidu deck before it is too > late. I tend to throw my meanest stuff at someone when they dont' have anyone out. They can't possibly defend against it. Of course there is the strategic line of thought about letting someone spend themselves down and do alot of the work for you. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Problem is: does anyone REALLY want Enkidu back in the game? Even as a > cross table ally, I would need some good reasons (except for the obvious > table balance issues) to get the Pentex of him if I couldn't deal with a > rushing Enkidu. If you allow your prey to spend two pool to totally neutralize his prey's key vampire then you need go back to Strategy 101 class. Enkidu is not a threat to you until you become his predator, and in the mean time is quite a powerful ally. His controller should be favorably inclined toward you if you get rid of the Pentex. Allowing your prey to capitalize on Pentex Subversion for more than one turn is a strategic error, especially since Enkidu is going to more than likely smash one of you preys vampires on the first turn that he is un-Pentexed. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Nvim" <nv...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht news:427650cd$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au... > > "XZealot" <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> wrote in message > news:d557vm$5mi$1...@domitilla.aioe.org... > >> The best way to get rid of Enkidu is to oust his controller. He has just >> invested 3 turns and 11 pool influencing him into play, barring inflence >> enhancers. You should be able to do massive MASSIVE pool damage to him >> in >> the mean time. > > I can not think of any decks that can do massive pool damage in the first > three turns without a ridiculous amount of luck. But that is not saying > much, I do not usually play the fast bleed decks. I do agree that the > best way to prevent an Enkidu deck from entrenching itself is to hit it > hard early, the problem is realising it is an Enkidu deck before it is too > late. A local player (Luk De Ron) here once made a deck (Giovanni+ Shroud Mastery +Wraiths) that could theoretically bleed for 27 after just 3 turns. I does require a lucky draw though. I never saw it happen, the 27, but i saw him go as high as 20, which is enough if your prey has influenced every turn. Evil dominate bleeders ;) I can't exacly remember how it went, but IIRC he started with turn 1 with: Jake Washington + bleeds with computer hacking, influence out Rudolpho Giovanni + 1 on Isabel Giovanni. Turn 2: Play Path of Bones. Rudolpho recruits 3 Wraiths (using Shroud mastery to untap): Brigitte Gebauer, Felix 'the fix' and Ambrosius. both Jake and Rudolpho play a computer hacking. influence out Isabel giovanni. Turn 3: Isabel bleeds with: govern, Command of the Beast, conditioning, for a grand total of 7. The rest plays computer hackings: (jake:1, rudopho:2, Brigitte:3, Felix: 2, Ambrosius:1) for a total of 9 prey has been bled for 1+3+7+9= 20 after just three turns. Luk explained how it could go even higher, but I forgot.

"XZealot" <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> wrote in message news:d55kho$3m0$1...@domitilla.aioe.org... [ quoted text not captured ] It would depend on the circumstances, he will more than likely only need one turn to bring out a chaff vampire and it could release Enkidu. If he was losing pool fast and I was out of the firing line then I would release him. No point giving someone easy VP, unless that someone is you. A released Enkidu would more than likely inflict some serious carnage even if the player was doomed to die, that would be a good thing from where you would be sitting cross table. I agree it would be a bad strategy to just leave Enkidu locked up and leave the player vulnerable if you are not realistically in the firing line. You would have to weigh up what was in your best interest based on what you were playing and what your opponents were playing.

"XZealot" <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> schreef in bericht news:d55kho$3m0$1...@domitilla.aioe.org... >> Problem is: does anyone REALLY want Enkidu back in the game? Even as a >> cross table ally, I would need some good reasons (except for the obvious >> table balance issues) to get the Pentex of him if I couldn't deal with a >> rushing Enkidu. > > If you allow your prey to spend two pool to totally neutralize his prey's > key vampire then you need go back to Strategy 101 class. I was speaking about when your deck absolutely can't handle sitting next to Enkidu. In general I agree, of course. >Enkidu is not a > threat to you until you become his predator, and in the mean time is quite > a > powerful ally. His controller should be favorably inclined toward you if > you get rid of the Pentex. Allowing your prey to capitalize on Pentex > Subversion for more than one turn is a strategic error, especially since > Enkidu is going to more than likely smash one of you preys vampires on the > first turn that he is un-Pentexed. that falls under good reasons to free him. :) But probalby the grand prey of the Enkidu deck will unpentex him, he has the most reasons to do so. But if rescuing Enkidu means i get an easier first oust, but then grind to a halt why would I do that? Easy vp for my prey but still a shot at teh GW is better than a easy VP for me and no chance in hell at a table win. If I'm Enkidu's grand pred (in a 5 player game) it can also mean that my grandpred get's no pressure whatsoever and can put pressure on my pred, which as we all know is a good thing. you know: special circumstances make you do things that in general are not known as GOOD.

"Jeroen Rombauts" <jeroen....@NOSPAMtelenet.be> wrote in message news:4%sde.79413$lk7.5...@phobos.telenet-ops.be... > > "XZealot" <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> schreef in bericht > news:d55kho$3m0$1...@domitilla.aioe.org... >>> Problem is: does anyone REALLY want Enkidu back in the game? Even as a >>> cross table ally, I would need some good reasons (except for the obvious >>> table balance issues) to get the Pentex of him if I couldn't deal with a >>> rushing Enkidu. >> >> If you allow your prey to spend two pool to totally neutralize his prey's >> key vampire then you need go back to Strategy 101 class. > > I was speaking about when your deck absolutely can't handle sitting next > to Enkidu. In general I agree, of course. Who can handle Enkidu? Not a whole lot of people, but he is going to be pretty ragged if predator has put any pressure on him at all after being without a vampire for 4 or more turns. >>Enkidu is not a >> threat to you until you become his predator, and in the mean time is >> quite a >> powerful ally. His controller should be favorably inclined toward you if >> you get rid of the Pentex. Allowing your prey to capitalize on Pentex >> Subversion for more than one turn is a strategic error, especially since >> Enkidu is going to more than likely smash one of you preys vampires on >> the >> first turn that he is un-Pentexed. > > that falls under good reasons to free him. :) But probalby the grand prey > of the Enkidu deck will unpentex him, he has the most reasons to do so. Actually, your prey has the most to gain by having Enkidu Pentex'd (an easy V.P. and half way to a potential Game Win) which means you have the most to lose (your prey gaining 6 pool and a Victory Point). If you think that anyone else on the table is worried about it, then you are wrong. Enkidu's prey is gaining free reign to send all his minions after Enkidu's grand prey and Ekidu's grand prey is spending all his resources defending himself from an unrelenting onslaught. While you will undoubtable find it pleasurable to not have a predator, you are actually the person who is in one of the worst positions at the table. Your prey is going to gain 6 pool. Your grand predator (who has no predator) will more than likely oust your predator and gain 6 pool. This leaves a 3 way table with everyone but you having 1 VP and six extra pool. > But if rescuing Enkidu means i get an easier first oust, but then grind to > a halt why would I do that? To keep yourself within reach of the Game Win. (snip really confusing example that I could not understand) > you know: special circumstances make you do things that in general are not > known as GOOD. Allowing your prey to get a VP is always BAD, no matter how many celestial bodies you line up to try to justify it. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 2 May 2005 12:54:35 -0500, XZealot <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> wrote: >> that falls under good reasons to free him. :) But probalby the grand >> prey >> of the Enkidu deck will unpentex him, he has the most reasons to do so. > > Actually, your prey has the most to gain by having Enkidu Pentex'd (an > easy > V.P. and half way to a potential Game Win) which means you have the most > to > lose (your prey gaining 6 pool and a Victory Point). If you think that > anyone else on the table is worried about it, then you are wrong. Well, I kind of think that the player playing Enkidu is sort of worried too. I also think he or she may lose more by being ousted than me (portrayed in the example as his or her grandpredator). >> you know: special circumstances make you do things that in general are >> not >> known as GOOD. > > Allowing your prey to get a VP is always BAD, no matter how many > celestial > bodies you line up to try to justify it. I disagree. I'm a big fan of the "Go left." school. I play like that: go left. That is, however, an inferior style of play when compared to thinking in tables. If you can be beaten by Enkidu and Enkidu alone, you should let him get ousted. This way you are one step closer to winning the game even if your prey took the VP (provided that you can handle your prey at +6 pool). Good players often allow the VPs for very dangerous decks to go down the drain in order to secure a reasonable GW. -- Bye, Daneel

"XZealot" <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> schreef in bericht news:d55pab$eme$1...@domitilla.aioe.org... > > "Jeroen Rombauts" <jeroen....@NOSPAMtelenet.be> wrote in message > news:4%sde.79413$lk7.5...@phobos.telenet-ops.be... >> >> "XZealot" <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> schreef in bericht >> news:d55kho$3m0$1...@domitilla.aioe.org... >>>> Problem is: does anyone REALLY want Enkidu back in the game? Even as a >>>> cross table ally, I would need some good reasons (except for the >>>> obvious >>>> table balance issues) to get the Pentex of him if I couldn't deal with >>>> a >>>> rushing Enkidu. >>> >>> If you allow your prey to spend two pool to totally neutralize his >>> prey's >>> key vampire then you need go back to Strategy 101 class. >> >> I was speaking about when your deck absolutely can't handle sitting next >> to Enkidu. In general I agree, of course. > > Who can handle Enkidu? Not a whole lot of people, but he is going to be > pretty ragged if predator has put any pressure on him at all after being > without a vampire for 4 or more turns. There's a difference in being able to oust and just die while you're next to them. fr.ex if you rely on obedience as you combat defence (eg Malkav voters) you can do nothing against Enkidu. And taking down your 2 (max 3) vamps won't be a problem. With nothing you can do about it. Worse still: the Enkidu player HAS to do it, because even with one vamp you can still oust him. > >>>Enkidu is not a >>> threat to you until you become his predator, and in the mean time is >>> quite a >>> powerful ally. His controller should be favorably inclined toward you >>> if >>> you get rid of the Pentex. Allowing your prey to capitalize on Pentex >>> Subversion for more than one turn is a strategic error, especially since >>> Enkidu is going to more than likely smash one of you preys vampires on >>> the >>> first turn that he is un-Pentexed. >> >> that falls under good reasons to free him. :) But probalby the grand prey >> of the Enkidu deck will unpentex him, he has the most reasons to do so. > > Actually, your prey has the most to gain by having Enkidu Pentex'd (an > easy > V.P. and half way to a potential Game Win) which means you have the most > to > lose (your prey gaining 6 pool and a Victory Point). If you think that > anyone else on the table is worried about it, then you are wrong. you're contradicting yourself: see below. >Enkidu's > prey is gaining free reign to send all his minions after Enkidu's grand > prey > and Ekidu's grand prey is spending all his resources defending himself > from > an unrelenting onslaught. which would be stupid if he could unpentex Enkidu. which is why he's the one who should do it. >While you will undoubtable find it pleasurable to > not have a predator, you are actually the person who is in one of the > worst > positions at the table. Your prey is going to gain 6 pool. Your grand > predator (who has no predator) will more than likely oust your predator > and > gain 6 pool. This leaves a 3 way table with everyone but you having 1 VP > and six extra pool. wow there: first you say that I'm worst of because of the Pentex and then you make the leap that my predator will be dead. Who was worst off? And, again: special circumstances: what if my deck actually wants to go to the 3 player game as fast as possible? > >> But if rescuing Enkidu means i get an easier first oust, but then grind >> to >> a halt why would I do that? > > To keep yourself within reach of the Game Win. with 1 vp gone and 4 players left you can still win the table. > > (snip really confusing example that I could not understand) > >> you know: special circumstances make you do things that in general are >> not >> known as GOOD. > > Allowing your prey to get a VP is always BAD, no matter how many celestial > bodies you line up to try to justify it. > generalisations <-> special circumstances. That's the only thing I'm saying. and if we're talking about generalisations, I can make one too: it's better that your prey gets 1 VP and you win the table than you getting a VP and not winning the table. logically sound, but doesn't actually mean anything.

> Well, I kind of think that the player playing Enkidu is sort of worried > too. I also think he or she may lose more by being ousted than me > (portrayed in the example as his or her grandpredator). I would say that someone with a Pentex'd Enkidu is within a few turns of being ousted. There is just too much wrapped up in Enkidu for his controller to be able to survive without him. > I disagree. I'm a big fan of the "Go left." school. I play like that: go > left. That is, however, an inferior style of play when compared to > thinking in tables. If you can be beaten by Enkidu and Enkidu alone, you > should let him get ousted. This way you are one step closer to winning > the game even if your prey took the VP (provided that you can handle your > prey at +6 pool). Good players often allow the VPs for very dangerous > decks to go down the drain in order to secure a reasonable GW. There is no such thing as a deck that can be beaten "only by Enkidu alone", that is a strawman arguement. All decks can be beaten. I think that if you let your prey's Pentex stay on the table then you are more than likely saying that you want to have a very difficult game. You will almost assuridly have to go through 6 more pool. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 2 May 2005 13:23:21 -0500, XZealot <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> wrote: > >> Well, I kind of think that the player playing Enkidu is sort of worried >> too. I also think he or she may lose more by being ousted than me >> (portrayed in the example as his or her grandpredator). > > I would say that someone with a Pentex'd Enkidu is within a few turns of > being ousted. There is just too much wrapped up in Enkidu for his > controller to be able to survive without him. > >> I disagree. I'm a big fan of the "Go left." school. I play like that: go >> left. That is, however, an inferior style of play when compared to >> thinking in tables. If you can be beaten by Enkidu and Enkidu alone, >> you >> should let him get ousted. This way you are one step closer to winning >> the game even if your prey took the VP (provided that you can handle >> your >> prey at +6 pool). Good players often allow the VPs for very dangerous >> decks to go down the drain in order to secure a reasonable GW. > > There is no such thing as a deck that can be beaten "only by Enkidu > alone", Yes, true. But, given a table and real decks, you will always need to fear certain decks more and others less. If Enkidu is your bane, than letting him get ousted is the way to go (and not doing so is stupid). > that is a strawman arguement. All decks can be beaten. I think that if > you > let your prey's Pentex stay on the table then you are more than likely > saying that you want to have a very difficult game. > You will almost assuridly have to go through 6 more pool. Well, otherwise, one VP later you might end up getting pummeled to death by none other than Enkidu. Since in the majority of the games you won't be standing up with 1/5, you might as well at least try to choose which VPs you shoot at and which VPs you decide to do without. Always shooting for 5 VPs is the surest way to miss the GW. Well, not THE surest, but a pretty sure way nevertheless. ;) -- Bye, Daneel

> There's a difference in being able to oust and just die while you're next > to them. fr.ex if you rely on obedience as you combat defence (eg Malkav > voters) you can do nothing against Enkidu. And taking down your 2 (max 3) > vamps won't be a problem. With nothing you can do about it. Worse still: > the Enkidu player HAS to do it, because even with one vamp you can still > oust him. Okay, So you are saying that you not gaining 6 pool, your prey gaining 6 pool and a Victory Point is better than you gaining 6 pool and a Victory Point. That is a 12 pool swing. You are more afraid of Enkidu than the deck that ousted the Enkidu deck. That seems very myopic to me. >>>>Enkidu is not a >>>> threat to you until you become his predator, and in the mean time is >>>> quite a >>>> powerful ally. His controller should be favorably inclined toward you >>>> if >>>> you get rid of the Pentex. Allowing your prey to capitalize on Pentex >>>> Subversion for more than one turn is a strategic error, especially >>>> since >>>> Enkidu is going to more than likely smash one of you preys vampires on >>>> the >>>> first turn that he is un-Pentexed. >>> >>> that falls under good reasons to free him. :) But probalby the grand >>> prey >>> of the Enkidu deck will unpentex him, he has the most reasons to do so. >> >> Actually, your prey has the most to gain by having Enkidu Pentex'd (an >> easy >> V.P. and half way to a potential Game Win) which means you have the most >> to >> lose (your prey gaining 6 pool and a Victory Point). If you think that >> anyone else on the table is worried about it, then you are wrong. > > you're contradicting yourself: see below. but I am not....see below.... >>Enkidu's >> prey is gaining free reign to send all his minions after Enkidu's grand >> prey >> and Ekidu's grand prey is spending all his resources defending himself >> from >> an unrelenting onslaught. > > which would be stupid if he could unpentex Enkidu. which is why he's the > one who should do it. You can only choose to unpentex Enkidu during your turn which is after your predator's turn. Either your predator hasn't tried to unPentex Enkidu or he has tried and failed. By the time you have the opportunity to unPentex Enkidu it is critical that you do so. >>While you will undoubtable find it pleasurable to >> not have a predator, you are actually the person who is in one of the >> worst >> positions at the table. Your prey is going to gain 6 pool. Your grand >> predator (who has no predator) will more than likely oust your predator >> and >> gain 6 pool. This leaves a 3 way table with everyone but you having 1 VP >> and six extra pool. > > wow there: first you say that I'm worst of because of the Pentex and then > you make the leap that my predator will be dead. Who was worst off? (snipped special circumstances) Again, you are in the worst position because you have the opportunity to do the most about it, and from what you are saying, you will convince yourself that the strategic move is to give your prey 6 pool and a V.P. over you keeping your grandprey in the game and denying your prey 6 pool. By not removing the Pentex when you have the opportunity to gives your prey a whole turn to again try to oust Enkidu's controller. You are allowing him to keep a huge advantage when you have the opportunity to get rid of it. >>> But if rescuing Enkidu means i get an easier first oust, but then grind >>> to >>> a halt why would I do that? >> >> To keep yourself within reach of the Game Win. > > with 1 vp gone and 4 players left you can still win the table. Yes, but you have 6 more pool to overcome than any other player on the 4 person table. So that puts you in the most difficult position. > generalisations <-> special circumstances. That's the only thing I'm > saying. > > and if we're talking about generalisations, I can make one too: it's > better that your prey gets 1 VP and you win the table than you getting a > VP and not winning the table. logically sound, but doesn't actually mean > anything. Strawman, there is no such thing as a Guaranteed Game Win, no matter how many Victory Point you give to other players. [ quoted text not captured ]

>> There is no such thing as a deck that can be beaten "only by Enkidu >> alone", > > Yes, true. But, given a table and real decks, you will always need to fear > certain decks more and others less. If Enkidu is your bane, than letting > him get ousted is the way to go (and not doing so is stupid). Enkidu is everybody's bane. He can kill any vampire on his turn, but that shouldn't stop you from ousting Enkidu's predator. >> that is a strawman arguement. All decks can be beaten. I think that if >> you >> let your prey's Pentex stay on the table then you are more than likely >> saying that you want to have a very difficult game. >> You will almost assuridly have to go through 6 more pool. > > Well, otherwise, one VP later you might end up getting pummeled to death > by none other than Enkidu. Since in the majority of the games you won't > be standing up with 1/5, you might as well at least try to choose which > VPs you shoot at and which VPs you decide to do without. Always shooting > for 5 VPs is the surest way to miss the GW. Well, not THE surest, but a > pretty sure way nevertheless. ;) And yet, there is no surer way to keep your prey from being ousted than by you his predator giving him pool. If you can't oust your prey, you can't win the game. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <d55k2o$2cs$1...@domitilla.aioe.org>, XZealot <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> writes: >>>> probably a lot easier to Banish a low-blood Enkidu than it is to try and >>>> kill one off in combat. >>> >>> How do you plan on doing that? With one of your handy 12 caps? >> >> I generally only use Banishment in my Arika deck, too hit or miss >> otherwise. > >Arika can not Banish Enkidu. I think he's making the mistake that Banishment operates based on someone having less blood than you, or the amount of blood they have (a la Temptation, say). Of course, it operates based on their actual capacity. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <d55r0j$ine$1...@domitilla.aioe.org>, XZealot <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> writes: >There is no such thing as a deck that can be beaten "only by Enkidu alone", >that is a strawman arguement. All decks can be beaten. I think that if you >let your prey's Pentex stay on the table then you are more than likely >saying that you want to have a very difficult game. >You will almost assuridly have to go through 6 more pool. Well. Assume we go A, B, Enkidu, C, D round the table. If A thinks she can't really take on an Enkidu scary/multi-rush, she might decide to let B oust Enkidu and then sweep up. Of course, it might not be that easy, but I've certainly seen situations where one deck on a table is a pain and you'd rather someone else took it out, letting you get three or four VP but not a sweep. Of course, that gets into a lot of detail about specific tables, specific decks, specific strategies and specific "holes" in deck design, so it's hard to draw general points of any solidity. However, in the worst case scenario, the allies who you should be able to convince to help you may think they are best served by you not being on the table, or simply make a bad decision. At which point, having a "way out" that doesn't rely on other people is advantageous - though potentially quite difficult to set up, and perhaps too costly for any given deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 2 May 2005 14:22:22 -0500, XZealot <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> wrote: > >>> There is no such thing as a deck that can be beaten "only by Enkidu >>> alone", >> >> Yes, true. But, given a table and real decks, you will always need to >> fear >> certain decks more and others less. If Enkidu is your bane, than >> letting >> him get ousted is the way to go (and not doing so is stupid). > > Enkidu is everybody's bane. He can kill any vampire on his turn, but > that > shouldn't stop you from ousting Enkidu's predator. Well, borrowing from other posts, a fattie deck using Obedience as defence can well become minionless in one turn if Enkidu sees to it. On the other hand, a mid-cap deck that packs maneuvers, prevent and S:CE might well withstand the wrath of Enkidu for a turn or two (being enough for the oust). I see it to be perfectly reasonable to allow your prey to oust the multirush deck and then proceed to oust him. I see it to be completely foolhardy to help your grandprey who will then eventually kill your vampires (possibly even before you ousted your prey, if your prey makes a deal with the Enkidu deck!). >> Well, otherwise, one VP later you might end up getting pummeled to death >> by none other than Enkidu. Since in the majority of the games you won't >> be standing up with 1/5, you might as well at least try to choose which >> VPs you shoot at and which VPs you decide to do without. Always >> shooting >> for 5 VPs is the surest way to miss the GW. Well, not THE surest, but a >> pretty sure way nevertheless. ;) > > And yet, there is no surer way to keep your prey from being ousted than > by > you his predator giving him pool. If you can't oust your prey, you can't > win the game. As noted by another poster: getting a VP and then being ousted is a lot worse than losing a VP and then getting the GW. -- Bye, Daneel

>> And yet, there is no surer way to keep your prey from being ousted than >> by >> you his predator giving him pool. If you can't oust your prey, you can't >> win the game. > > As noted by another poster: getting a VP and then being ousted is a lot > worse than losing a VP and then getting the GW. Also noted, no matter how many V.P.s you give to other players you still aren't guaranteed the game win. [ quoted text not captured ]

"XZealot" <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> schreef in bericht news:d55u3a$q0o$1...@domitilla.aioe.org... >> There's a difference in being able to oust and just die while you're next >> to them. fr.ex if you rely on obedience as you combat defence (eg Malkav >> voters) you can do nothing against Enkidu. And taking down your 2 (max 3) >> vamps won't be a problem. With nothing you can do about it. Worse still: >> the Enkidu player HAS to do it, because even with one vamp you can still >> oust him. > > Okay, So you are saying that you not gaining 6 pool, your prey gaining 6 > pool and a Victory Point is better than you gaining 6 pool and a Victory > Point. That is a 12 pool swing. Read again. I'm saying that there MIGHT BE situations were it's better to let the Enkidu deck die. >You are more afraid of Enkidu than the > deck that ousted the Enkidu deck. That seems very myopic to me. no. rock-paper-sissors. [ quoted text not captured ] might be, might not be. my whole point is: IT DEPENDS ON THE TABLE! > >>>While you will undoubtable find it pleasurable to >>> not have a predator, you are actually the person who is in one of the >>> worst >>> positions at the table. Your prey is going to gain 6 pool. Your grand >>> predator (who has no predator) will more than likely oust your predator >>> and >>> gain 6 pool. This leaves a 3 way table with everyone but you having 1 >>> VP >>> and six extra pool. >> >> wow there: first you say that I'm worst of because of the Pentex and then >> you make the leap that my predator will be dead. Who was worst off? > > (snipped special circumstances) But I was agreeing with what you said in general! just pointing out that in some cases it works differently. > > Again, you are in the worst position because you have the opportunity to > do > the most about it, and from what you are saying, you will convince > yourself > that the strategic move is to give your prey 6 pool and a V.P. over you > keeping your grandprey in the game and denying your prey 6 pool. again: under specific circumstances: yes. For the simple reason that the Enkidu deck is what stands between me getting 1 VP or a GW. > > By not removing the Pentex when you have the opportunity to gives your > prey > a whole turn to again try to oust Enkidu's controller. You are allowing > him > to keep a huge advantage when you have the opportunity to get rid of it. > >>>> But if rescuing Enkidu means i get an easier first oust, but then grind >>>> to >>>> a halt why would I do that? >>> >>> To keep yourself within reach of the Game Win. >> >> with 1 vp gone and 4 players left you can still win the table. > > Yes, but you have 6 more pool to overcome than any other player on the 4 > person table. So that puts you in the most difficult position. not if you can easily handle that 6 pool.... for dom bleeders: its only 1 extra bleed. for Parity shift decks it can be even better. > > >> generalisations <-> special circumstances. That's the only thing I'm >> saying. >> >> and if we're talking about generalisations, I can make one too: it's >> better that your prey gets 1 VP and you win the table than you getting a >> VP and not winning the table. logically sound, but doesn't actually mean >> anything. > > Strawman, there is no such thing as a Guaranteed Game Win, no matter how > many Victory Point you give to other players. it's al in a perception of chances, of course, nothing is guaranteed.

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:zlpmp$TO9nd...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <d55k2o$2cs$1...@domitilla.aioe.org>, XZealot > <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> writes: >>>>> probably a lot easier to Banish a low-blood Enkidu than it is to try >>>>> and >>>>> kill one off in combat. >>>> >>>> How do you plan on doing that? With one of your handy 12 caps? >>> >>> I generally only use Banishment in my Arika deck, too hit or miss >>> otherwise. >> >>Arika can not Banish Enkidu. > > I think he's making the mistake that Banishment operates based on > someone having less blood than you, or the amount of blood they have (a > la Temptation, say). > > Of course, it operates based on their actual capacity. Yeah, I know how it works. I usually work on getting her capacity higher than anything else on the table. That in itself is a useful defense against a lot of things but is also a requirement of Banishment.

Jeroen Rombauts wrote: > "XZealot" <x_ze...@brucefoodsla.com> schreef in bericht > news:d557vm$5mi$1...@domitilla.aioe.org... > > The best way to get rid of Enkidu is to oust his controller. He has just > > invested 3 turns and 11 pool influencing him into play, barring inflence > > enhancers. You should be able to do massive MASSIVE pool damage to him in > > the mean time. > > > IME, the best way of playing any one-vamp-deck is including Pentex > subversion in your deck. Last night i tested 2 decks: 1 Enkidu/!Gangrel and 1 Nosferatu Prince/Red List. In both decks i had problems with Pentex at the beggining of the games, since it slows down even more bringing up large vampires. Anyway, i tested the Nosferatu/Red List deck and it didn't impress me a lot. I find out the Red List action hard to play since it has to be played on a younger vampire and has no stealth. Skipping (for now) in-details, i think Red List is a add-on mechanism on regular combat decks and strategies, similar to Haven Uncovered. I found it hard to build a strategy only based on Red List as i thought it was 1st turn: Red List, 2nd turn: everyone attacks the opponent Red Listed.... ;-) .- Luis Duarte

On 4 May 2005 06:30:07 -0700, "Luis Duarte - Powerbase:Lisbon" <luis....@netcabo.pt> scrawled: >decks and strategies, similar to Haven Uncovered. I found it hard to >build a strategy only based on Red List as i thought it was 1st turn: >Red List, 2nd turn: everyone attacks the opponent Red Listed.... ;-) why is everyone else attacking the red list guy? were they all playing trophies too? any trophies you have in play you can choose not to give out if you don't want to. were they doing it just to stop you getting trophies? salem http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

Nvim a écrit : > I can not think of any decks that can do massive pool damage in the first > three turns without a ridiculous amount of luck. then you should come to tournaments sometime :) > But that is not saying > much, I do not usually play the fast bleed decks. we're not talking of you, but of the other guys on the table that will try to condition / legal / kindred spirits / conservative' you out of the table in the first 3 turns :) > I do agree that the best > way to prevent an Enkidu deck from entrenching itself is to hit it hard > early, the problem is realising it is an Enkidu deck before it is too late. if you have no vampire out able to intercept, your predator will take advantage of this fact. plain and simple :)

Well, when i mean "everyone" i mean in fact all my vampires and perhaps my prey's prey vampires (attacking back). Only i was playing Trophy:Diablerie (the only Trophy i play) which was most of the time in the ash head to be picked after a diablerie (never in play). .- LD

"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4279f4e0$0$6934$79c1...@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net... > Nvim a écrit : > >> I can not think of any decks that can do massive pool damage in the first >> three turns without a ridiculous amount of luck. > > then you should come to tournaments sometime :) I do not play the bleed decks just because I think they are boring, which I do, but also because I feel they are far too hit or miss. If I roll up and my prey is playing a deck which can redirect, deflect, etc then it is going to be a long day, or more than likely a short one. >> But that is not saying much, I do not usually play the fast bleed decks. > > we're not talking of you, but of the other guys on the table that will try > to condition / legal / kindred spirits / conservative' you out of the > table in the first 3 turns :) You could avoid part of that headache if you bring a weenie out first to hold the fort while you influence out your superstar. Mind you, there are a thousand things that could go wrong, there is no one perfect vampire, deck or strategy. Luck plays a major factor, where you sit, what others are playing and how their strengths/weakness match with your own. > > >> I do agree that the best way to prevent an Enkidu deck from entrenching >> itself is to hit it hard early, the problem is realising it is an Enkidu >> deck before it is too late. > > if you have no vampire out able to intercept, your predator will take > advantage of this fact. plain and simple :) That is true, but a lot depends on what your grand predator is doing. It is not desirable to spend the first three influences defenseless. It would be wiser to bring out something you can influence quickly before bringing out Enkidu, that would also help him against things like pentax subversion where he needs something else to free him. But, it doesn't matter what style of play you look at, there is always another deck or style that can expose holes in your armor. You can slap out some weenie bleed vampire to hope to expose your prey and your predator might be playing some rush combat deck which you are going to be in a world of hurt. So yes, I agree there is a weakness to influencing out something big like that, but everything has a weakness.

"Luis Duarte - Powerbase:Lisbon" <luis....@netcabo.pt> wrote in message news:1115301504.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Why would you only play with Trophy: Diablerie? Trophies are incredibly powerful. So you went through the nightmare of jumping through hoops just to escape diablerie. That seems a little silly. Trophy Hunting Ground is a personal Rack that can't be stolen and stacks with the real rack Trophy Domain is an Eternal Vigilance and Sport Bike combined and stackable!! Trophy Progeny is a free 2 cap vampire full of blood who can act on the turn they come into play Trophy Retainers is a free unblockable action every turn to get a retainer out of you hand or deck that untaps you. Trophy Wealth is gain 5 pool if you are playing with expensive equipment. Trophy Clan Respect is a permanent Clan Loyalty on a vampire which is extremely powerful in tournament play with all the clan based decks (Lasombra Royalty, Eurobrujah, Malk S & B, Tzimice Wall) These are just too powerful of effects to be ignored. You should definantly try them. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Why would you only play with Trophy: Diablerie? Because with a single card it allows me to burn vampires without the blood hunt problem. I don't even have to bother about votes or other oot clan specific master cards. >Trophies are incredibly powerful. ... in particular Trophy:Diablerie. > So you went through the nightmare of jumping through hoops just >to escape diablerie. That seems a little silly. The idea is to simplify that process: you mark the target as a red list, you fight him until he goes to torpor and you diablerize him. In a combat deck, you have little space for the other trophies IMO. But they're good indeed. .- Luis Duarte