I recently played a game with a new playgroup where a Ravnos deck got all but 1
VP (it got 4). The Ravnos was a Potence combat variation relying on Traps,
Carrion Crows, and a whole s***load of Apparitions. It also had quite a few
Potence cards (Torn Signpost most notably, also Mighty Grapple) and a handful
of Fortitude (Dawn Op, Skin of the Night).
I know the deck is completely hosed by S:CE, but what else can one do? The
deck, whic started as my grandpredator, crushed my predator who was playing a
City !Gangrel combat deck. And me, with my non-combat-focused Tremere deck
didn't stand much of a chance. All I could do was occasionally Theft for 2,
which I would lose right away anyway.
Unfortunately, I probably helped my grandpredator too much in the beginning
(that's what I get for rescuing Kostantin from torpor!). And while I tried to
help my predator, it was too little too late.
Interestingly enough, it was quite the torpor party. My predator had Sadie,
Samantha, Zachary, and Darrell, all of whom jumped in and out of torpor (and
were all in torpor by the end). I had Blythe, Justine, Rebekka, and Ulugh.
Blythe and Justine were regularly in torpor, but everyone ended up in there by
the end (thanks to a Lunatic Eruption my prey played on Kostantin). And
finally, my prey, a !Malk deck had 3 or 4 vamps that got into torpor (Yorik,
Korah, and Dolphin) leaving him to work with Kite and Artemis. And finally my
grandpredator/grandprey had Kostantin, Tereza, Joaquina, and Chester DuBois
(?). And the strange thing is, despite all these vampires constantly in torpor,
there was only one count of diablerie (poor Samantha). Even when all of the
titled votes were torpored, I didn't see any diablerie. Maybe it's just a
playgroup thing.
Well, back to the main point. Besides, S:CE, how does one counter such a Ravnos
Trap deck? Thanks!
Halcyan 2
BTW: I would now like to scorn all of those people who say that Movement of the
Mind is a useless card. Stuck in combat with Tereza with a Torn Signpost,
Depravity, Carrion Crows, and Trap was not a pleasant experience. Especially
when they press to continue and I can't do squat with my two Apportations (I
was really wishing I had MoM instead). I didn't manuever to long because I knew
he had more manuevers.
Also, as a sidenote, I've found Bursts of Sunlight to be QUITE useful! Better
to send yourself into torpor with near to full blood than to take a pounding
and eventually be sent to torpor empty!
halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote:
> I recently played a game with a new playgroup where a Ravnos deck got
> all but 1 VP (it got 4). The Ravnos was a Potence combat variation
> relying on Traps, Carrion Crows, and a whole s***load of Apparitions.
> It also had quite a few Potence cards (Torn Signpost most notably,
> also Mighty Grapple) and a handful of Fortitude (Dawn Op, Skin of the
> Night).
>
> I know the deck is completely hosed by S:CE, but what else can one do?
Obedience, don't block, press to end, Coma, Entombment, etc.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
>> I recently played a game with a new playgroup where a Ravnos deck got
>> all but 1 VP (it got 4). The Ravnos was a Potence combat variation
>> relying on Traps, Carrion Crows, and a whole s***load of Apparitions.
>> It also had quite a few Potence cards (Torn Signpost most notably,
>> also Mighty Grapple) and a handful of Fortitude (Dawn Op, Skin of the
>> Night).
>>
>> I know the deck is completely hosed by S:CE, but what else can one do?>
>Obedience, don't block, press to end, Coma, Entombment, etc.
Thanks for the advice.
Unfortunately, the Ravnos deck had Bum's Rushes and Ambushes so the "don't
block" angle wouldn't have helped. Also, the Coma/Entombment didn't seem to
great either -- my prey was playing !Malkavian and had a couple of Comas in
there as well but still got pounded.
I think with my deck, the Obediences and preferably press to ends will be the
best bet (already took out the Apportations for Movements of the Mind). Thanks
for the tips!
Halcyan 2
In article <20010210214222...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
Yeah, for Tremere, Theft of Vitae and Obedience are probably your best
defenses. I also recommend having available one or two Blood to Waters;
the Ravnos' biggest problem is keeping enough blood on them to do what
they need to do, so if you can't press to end, being able to boil away
the resouce for future Apparitions will help considerably. The Tremere
also have access to Chantry, which helps to reduce the amount of damage
the Ravnos do to you. Charnas the Imp is good for some blood reduction,
too.
John Baker
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010210173545...@ng-fi1.aol.com...
> I recently played a game with a new playgroup where a Ravnos deck got all
but 1
> VP (it got 4). The Ravnos was a Potence combat variation relying on Traps,
> Carrion Crows, and a whole s***load of Apparitions. It also had quite a few
> Potence cards (Torn Signpost most notably, also Mighty Grapple) and a
handful
> of Fortitude (Dawn Op, Skin of the Night).
Sounds like it has a lot of moving parts and/or big minions. Obedience has
already been mentioned as a good option. I would recommend including more
manuevers as well. Apportation *or* Movement of the Mind, since it seems like
you actually want to press to end. And if S:CE completely hoses it, I'm
willing to bet that this means little Immortal Grapple, so you should be able
to strike with Walk of Flames in the second round. Fake Outs might be
worthwhile as well. I'm trying to figure out how this deck was put together
with 90 cards...10 Bum's Rush or so, about 4 - 6 Potence skill cards, 8 -12
Apparations, 8 -12 Traps, 6 - 8 Carrion Crows, 15 random Fortitude cards, 20
or so random Potence cards. I suppose it could be done, but it doesn't look
like it's got much room for pool gain (always a problem with the Ravnos), or
much in the way of politics or intercept...
> I know the deck is completely hosed by S:CE, but what else can one do? The
> deck, whic started as my grandpredator, crushed my predator who was playing
a
> City !Gangrel combat deck. And me, with my non-combat-focused Tremere deck
> didn't stand much of a chance. All I could do was occasionally Theft for 2,
> which I would lose right away anyway.
Focus more on combat? :)
> BTW: I would now like to scorn all of those people who say that Movement of
the
> Mind is a useless card. Stuck in combat with Tereza with a Torn Signpost,
> Depravity, Carrion Crows, and Trap was not a pleasant experience. Especially
> when they press to continue and I can't do squat with my two Apportations (I
> was really wishing I had MoM instead). I didn't manuever to long because I
knew
> he had more manuevers.
That would be me. I've just generally found that if you smile a really big
cheshire-type smile when people are deciding whether or not to press, or say
"ooooh, thank you..." as you draw up a new card, they will often decline to
press against Tremere. How did you know he had more maneuvers? Looking at
your oppponent's hand again? :) I'd still try anyway...
Xian
>Yeah, for Tremere, Theft of Vitae and Obedience are probably your best
>defenses. I also recommend having available one or two Blood to Waters;
>the Ravnos' biggest problem is keeping enough blood on them to do what
>they need to do, so if you can't press to end, being able to boil away
>the resouce for future Apparitions will help considerably. The Tremere
>also have access to Chantry, which helps to reduce the amount of damage
>the Ravnos do to you. Charnas the Imp is good for some blood reduction,
>too.
The funny thing is, near the end, I just sort of sat there with two Blood to
Waters in my hand. Whenever I wanted to use them, it turned out I either didn't
have enough blood (due to Carrion Crows, DotB, etc.) or my opponent had so few
blood (2 or 3) it wasn't even worth it! Grrrr...
Charnas is good, but what happens if he comes back to one of my good minions?
If I played a Cryptic Mission deck it wouldn't be a problem but in this deck it
would.
Considering that this playgroup doesn't like to diablerize often, I think I'll
add a second Chantry to my deck soon (already have one copy in there).
Halcyan 2
>Sounds like it has a lot of moving parts and/or big minions.
It does. All four minions he got out were 6+ capacity. With all the moving
parts, he did start out slow (with few combat cards). Him being
grandpredator/grandprey, I helped him out a bit (rescuing Kostantin), etc.
>And if S:CE completely hoses it, I'm
>willing to bet that this means little Immortal Grapple, so you should be able
>to strike with Walk of Flames in the second round.
Walks wouldn't have helped. He had some Fortitude (Unflinching, Skin of Night)
and as I said had TONS of Apparitions. It was actually sort of funny:
Kostantin hits for 3 with Bang Nakh
(Some !Gangrel) Dodges
!Gangrel plays suprerior Blur and then Bone Spurs to strike for 1 agg hand
damage
Kostantin plays a superior Apparition to prevent 2 damage/round.
!Gangrel uses the other additional strike to Body Flare.
Kostantin is forced to play ANOTHER Apparition at superior. Then he presses...
>with 90 cards...10 Bum's Rush or so, about 4 - 6 Potence skill cards, 8 -12
>Apparations, 8 -12 Traps, 6 - 8 Carrion Crows, 15 random Fortitude cards, 20
>or so random Potence cards. I suppose it could be done, but it doesn't look
>like it's got much room for pool gain (always a problem with the Ravnos)
Actually, I don't think he quite that many Bum's Rushes. More Carrion Crows,
and probably less Fortitude and Potence (only saw a smattering and there
weren't too many). He was the only person to run close to running out of
library cards. And he actually had decent pool by the end due to the Edge, some
Blood Dolls, and stealing his prey's Museum of High Art.
>How did you know he had more maneuvers? Looking at
>your oppponent's hand again? :) I'd still try anyway...
Well, my !Malk prey played a Revelations so everyone could see the Ravnos'
hand. A few turns later, for kicks, I played a Revelations of my own on the
!Malk player. Made planning a whole lot easier!
Halcyan 2
<faust...@my-deja.com> a écrit dans le message news:
966h59$89h$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
nice advice !
I've read LSJ'advice, and press to end is almost impossible when the ravnos
played "Drawing out the beast" on you. so, if you play tremere, theft+2nd
round BtW is a nice thing, but for other clans who don't have access to
combat ends strikes, i can't find a way. I was hit hard saturday by one
ravnos deck relying heavily on Trap/Carrion/Dotb combo, and despite a nice
combat hand, i was ripped into pieces.
somedy can help ?
reyda
On 10 Feb 2001 22:35:45 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote:
>I recently played a game with a new playgroup where a Ravnos deck got all but 1
>VP (it got 4). The Ravnos was a Potence combat variation relying on Traps,
>Carrion Crows, and a whole s***load of Apparitions. It also had quite a few
>Potence cards (Torn Signpost most notably, also Mighty Grapple) and a handful
>of Fortitude (Dawn Op, Skin of the Night).
>
>I know the deck is completely hosed by S:CE, but what else can one do? The
>deck, whic started as my grandpredator, crushed my predator who was playing a
>City !Gangrel combat deck. And me, with my non-combat-focused Tremere deck
>didn't stand much of a chance. All I could do was occasionally Theft for 2,
>which I would lose right away anyway.
Movement of the Mind; inferior, "Press, only usable to end combat".
=)
But yes, if you can't end combat or press to end in some fashion, then
you're going to have your head blown off by this type of deck. Of
course, it doesn't bleed for much, so it has trouble actually GOING
anywhere... but it IS S:CE, press to end, or bust. Or do more than 2
points of damage to him at any given time with, say, Caldrin of Blud!
(sic).
>(?). And the strange thing is, despite all these vampires constantly in torpor,
>there was only one count of diablerie (poor Samantha). Even when all of the
>titled votes were torpored, I didn't see any diablerie. Maybe it's just a
>playgroup thing.
I'm thinking so. Nothing stays in torpor long around here unless it's
a weenie; big vamps are "munch fodder". =)
>Well, back to the main point. Besides, S:CE, how does one counter such a Ravnos
>Trap deck? Thanks!
You hit it below. Press to end or S:CE.
>Halcyan 2
>
>BTW: I would now like to scorn all of those people who say that Movement of the
>Mind is a useless card. Stuck in combat with Tereza with a Torn Signpost,
>Depravity, Carrion Crows, and Trap was not a pleasant experience. Especially
That really sounds like overkill, actually. A Trap/Carrion Crows with
superior Animalism will do 12 points of damage... 8 from the Crows,
and 4 from the punches for 1. Skin of Steel can only prevent the
punches, and every prevent card played continues the Trap for 3 more
rounds.
The problem with the deck is that it requires superior ANI and
superior CHI to pull off; Vaclav and Joaquina are the only cheapies
who can do this. Other minions would be Sarisha and Natalia
(ANI/chi), but both of these can only prevent 1 point of damage each
round without skill cards.
With S:CE being so prevalent, it's risky as hell to play this kind of
deck as a Rush deck; you end up dropping all your cards to no purpose.
Even a bruise-and-bleed version is tricky. And of course, running
into someone with Potence and the ability to use it tends to suck
rocks. ("I prevent two!" "Fine. I punch for 3 and Blur for another
6.")
>when they press to continue and I can't do squat with my two Apportations (I
>was really wishing I had MoM instead). I didn't manuever to long because I knew
>he had more manuevers.
...Every maneuver also continues the Trap for 3 more rounds. =)
>Also, as a sidenote, I've found Bursts of Sunlight to be QUITE useful! Better
>to send yourself into torpor with near to full blood than to take a pounding
>and eventually be sent to torpor empty!
That is ONE way to go about it, yes. =) Complicated, but it does
beat the alternative.
-- Derek
"...I was just seeing if you'd notice." -- R. Grau
Halcyan 2 wrote:
>
> The funny thing is, near the end, I just sort of sat there with two
> Blood to Waters in my hand. Whenever I wanted to use them, it turned
> out I either didn't have enough blood (due to Carrion Crows, DotB,
> etc.) or my opponent had so few blood (2 or 3) it wasn't even worth
> it! Grrrr...
>
That's why I say "one or two." It's not a situation that would come up
often, so having only one in your deck means you won't have a whole
bunch in the wrong situations.
Besides, if the other guy has only 2 or 3 blood, I'd still use BtW. Get
rid of that blood, then smack them with a Blood Rage when they have to
hunt and can't play Apparition.
> Charnas is good, but what happens if he comes back to one of my
> good minions? If I played a Cryptic Mission deck it wouldn't be a
> problem but in this deck it would.
Not gonna happen. Charnas only comes back to visit when his first host
is burned. It sounds like that that means diablerie in your group, and
you just said that it doesn't happen that often. In most games I know
of, Charnas sends some poor sap to torpor and then just sits on the
torporized vampire for the rest of the game.
>
> Considering that this playgroup doesn't like to diablerize often, I
> think I'll add a second Chantry to my deck soon (already have one
> copy in there).
Chantry is a Really Good Card. Basically, it means that even though
your vampires have been beaten to a bloody pulp, they aren't a bloody
pulp. I've won many a game with a bunch of Tremere that won't stay dead
(and typically, between the Arcane Library, Wasserschloss Anif, and
Govern the Unaligned/Scouting Missions, keep calling their friends).
It's fun watching my playmates groan when I pull out my fifth Tremere
that's a 7+ cap.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Reyda wrote:
> I've read LSJ'advice, and press to end is almost impossible when
> the ravnos played "Drawing out the beast" on you. so, if you play
> tremere, theft+2nd round BtW is a nice thing, but for other clans
> who don't have access to combat ends strikes, i can't find a way.
> I was hit hard saturday by one ravnos deck relying heavily on
> Trap/Carrion/Dotb combo, and despite a nice combat hand, i was
> ripped into pieces.
> somedy can help ?
Trap/Carrion/DotB isn't a problem for the Brujah or Nosferatu; it's the
opponent's Fortitude/Apparition that crimps their style. Some other
clans have Coma or Entombment, and that gets around damage prevention.
Could you give me more specifics about your deck? I could give you
better advice then.
[ quoted text not captured ]
>That's why I say "one or two." It's not a situation that would come up
>often, so having only one in your deck means you won't have a whole
>bunch in the wrong situations.
I only have two copies in my 94 card (still working on trimming) deck. I was
keeping one around for the right opportunity and ended up drawing the second
one around this time (did discard it though). Just my luck to get stuck with
both of them! =)
Halcyan 2
>But yes, if you can't end combat or press to end in some fashion, then
>you're going to have your head blown off by this type of deck. Of
>course, it doesn't bleed for much, so it has trouble actually GOING
>anywhere... but it IS S:CE, press to end, or bust. Or do more than 2
>points of damage to him at any given time with, say, Caldrin of Blud!
>(sic).
Just forces him to play *another* Apparition (or maybe some Fortitude prevent)!
=)
>I'm thinking so. Nothing stays in torpor long around here unless it's
>a weenie; big vamps are "munch fodder". =)
Yeah. I expected lots of vamps to get muched too but I guess not. By mid-game
there were around 3-4 vamps perpetually in torpor and by the end, it was quite
the torpor party (4 !Gangrel, my 4 Tremere, and about 3 !Malks). And this was
even when all the titled vamps were in torpor!
>>BTW: I would now like to scorn all of those people who say that Movement of>the>>Mind is a useless card. Stuck in combat with Tereza with a Torn Signpost,
>>Depravity, Carrion Crows, and Trap was not a pleasant experience. Especially>
>That really sounds like overkill, actually.
Well, to add to the atmosphere even more, it just so happens that Tereza (or
was it Joaquina? Keep getting them confused) was not only Depraved, but also
Deranged! (Thanks to the !Malk player) while Kostantin had a Lunatic Eruption.
Wait a sec! I guess the Ravnos Anti just died (again)! I suppose this would
explain the mental abberations experienced by all the Ravnos. Still, a
Deranged, Depraved Tereza (or Joaquina) is actually quite amusing... =)
Halcyan 2