rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Failure of Mission

8 messages from 6 participants · 22 November 2000 – 27 November 2000
original thread on Google Groups

Nystulc

While organizing my cards, I came accross "Cardinal Sin: Failure of Mission", one each of Sabbat and Sabbat War. I noticed to my surprise that the Sabbat War text had been rather drastically changed. There are some common sense changes and clarifications about the enter-combat function being a directed action, etc. But the major change, and the one that surprised me, is that which takes place in the first sentence. I checked out the rulings and searched for discussions about the card on Deja-News. I found that the changes had been in effect (via rulings and errata) since October of last year. However the alteration had provoked no comment of discussion. I guess no-one cared because the card is considered wallpaper in either version. Before I make my own comments on the change, here is the relevant card-text from both cards: Sabbat version: ------------- 2 Blood. Requires a ready Cardinal or Archbishop. Only usable when a Sabbat vampire without a title has been blocked. Put this card on that vampire. Any Sabbat vampire may enter combat with the vampire with this card. This card can be burned by any Sabbat vampire as a (D) action. Sabbat War version: ------------- 2 Blood. Requires a ready Archbishop or Cardinal. Only usable when this vampire blocks a Sabbat vampire without a title, before combat begins. Put this card on the acting vampire. You still control this card. Any Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah may enter combat with the vampire with this card as a (D) action. Any Sabbat vampire can burn this card as a (D) action. The difference, of course, is that the original could be played whenever a non-titled Sabbat was blocked. The vampire playing the CS:FoM did not need to be the one doing the blocking. Thematically, the idea was that the Cardinal or Archbishop was calling down punishment on a Sabbat vampire for having "failed in his mission", (that is, allowed one of his actions to be blocked). Technically, one could play the card even if it was yourself that blocked, though this makes somewhat less sense thematically. It seems injust, even by Sabbat standards, to punish someone for Failure of Mission, when it is you yourself that prevented him from completing it. However, there is little chance that the card would be used in this way. Why would you burn 2 blood immediately before combat, only to give yourself the power to enter combat? Surely, in such circumstances, you would be better off with a combat card. But then comes the errata, which says that this is the ONLY way you can use the card. Why was this changed? Surely the original card was not considered overpowered. Or was this just assumed to be the intend of a badly worded, badly designed card? -- John Whelan

LSJ

nys...@cs.com (Nystulc) wrote: > Or was this just assumed to be the [intent] of a badly worded, > [...] card? This is the case. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

spin...@my-deja.com

what happened? the forum disappeared... -spin ===== ------ ==== -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++ [ quoted text not captured ]

Andrew S. Davidson

On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:01:49 GMT, spin...@my-deja.com wrote: >what happened? the forum disappeared... If you're talking about some deja thing then note that they stopped supporting forums earlier this year. They've made a real pig's ear of their Usenet service too - I'm surprised that a real player like Yahoo hasn't eaten their lunch yet. Andrew

John Whelan

On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, LSJ wrote: > nys...@cs.com (Nystulc) wrote: > > Or was this just assumed to be the [intent] of a badly worded, > > [...] card? > > This is the case. OK. But I cannot help suspecting that this assumption was a mistake, as I can see nothing supporting it. The sentence "Only usable when a Sabbat vampire without a title has been blocked." does not (to me) seem badly worded, nor does its meaning seem ambiguous. To assume it is badly worded, one must first conclude that it means other than it says. All considerations I can think of (such as theme, and appropriate effect for cost) support the idea that it means exactly what it says ... unless I have missed something. Perhaps its a little late for me to be bringing this up, now that the new text has been permanetly enshrined on the new cards. -- John Whelan

kp...@my-deja.com

In article <20001122075445...@nso-df.news.cs.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] > Only usable when a Sabbat vampire without a title has been blocked. Put this > card on that vampire. Any Sabbat vampire may enter combat with the vampire > with this card. This card can be burned by any Sabbat vampire as a (D) action. > > Sabbat War version: > ------------- > 2 Blood. Requires a ready Archbishop or Cardinal. > Only usable when this vampire blocks a Sabbat vampire without a title, before > combat begins. Put this card on the acting vampire. You still control this > card. Any Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah may enter combat > with the vampire with this card as a (D) action. Any Sabbat vampire can burn > this card as a (D) action. > > However, there is little chance that the card would be used in this way. Why > would you burn 2 blood immediately before combat, only to give yourself the > power to enter combat? Surely, in such circumstances, you would be better off > with a combat card. > It is worse than that- the text specifies "Any Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah ", so your vampires can't attack it. Unless the 'another' refers to the acting vampire's methuselah, who would be unlikely to want to attack his own vampire in any case. I wonder if you could combine this with Obedience-block, mark them as a failure, and don't even get in a fight with them. Then hope your grandprey is a combat deck and can do something with the (D) actions. Wallpaper. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ

kp...@my-deja.com wrote: > It is worse than that- the text specifies "Any Sabbat vampire > controlled by another Methuselah ", so your vampires can't attack it. > Unless the 'another' refers to the acting vampire's methuselah, who > would be unlikely to want to attack his own vampire in any case. "Another" refers to any Methuselah other than the Methuselah controlling the card, just as "you" always refers to the Methuselah who controls the card. As a minion card, the card is controlled by the controller of the minion it is on. The "another" phrasing is standard for enter-combat actions. > I wonder if you could combine this with Obedience-block, mark them as > a failure, and don't even get in a fight with them. Sure. > Then hope your > grandprey is a combat deck and can do something with the (D) actions. Or use the (D) actions yourself. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > kp...@my-deja.com wrote: > > It is worse than that- the text specifies "Any Sabbat vampire > > controlled by another Methuselah ", so your vampires can't attack > > it. > > Unless the 'another' refers to the acting vampire's methuselah, who > > would be unlikely to want to attack his own vampire in any case. > > "Another" refers to any Methuselah other than the Methuselah > controlling the card [...]. > > As a minion card, the card is controlled by the controller of the > minion it is on. Except in this case, of course, where the card states that you maintain control of it. Still the "another" in context of the sentence: "Any Sabbat vampire controlled by another Methuselah may enter combat with the vampire with this card" seems more clearly to be avoiding the self-combat option than excluding the reacting vampire's controller from entering combat. [ quoted text not captured ]