Im. Grapple: what to do??

Folks: More and more it seems to me that Immortal Grapple is a broken card. That is, it has three characteristics that allow it to dominate any Methusaleh-to-Methusaleh interaction: difficult to prevent, disproportionate results, extremely wide applicability. First, it is nearly impossible to counter. Yes, the antidote to IG is the lowly maneuver. The problem is the the antidote can be rather easily countered itself. For example, the Brujah are usually packing CEL, which has 4 maneuver cards (at least). Or, the tidy IG user can always include Fake Out. Moreover, the rush cards carry their own maneuver. In other words, maneuvers often don't help against IG. Second, IG almost always produces disproportional results, that is I have seen 4-cap vampires completely burn fully-blooded 8- and 9-cap vampires. Third, IG will work again nearly any combat defense deck. In my (admittedly limited) experience, the Methusaleh with a Potence Rush deck will almost always utterly destroy his/her prey. Now, I'm sure that many of you will reply that the Rush Potence deck (a) has trouble actually ousting his/her prey, and (b) often runs out of cards. Well, folks, that is cold cold consolation to the prey who has been savaged by this broken card. When I first started dropping by this forum, folks were griping about S:CE. Hey, I'd much much rather face S:CE, which of course is primarily defensive, that sit downwind from Rush Potence. Your thoughts? Madman -- Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums Talkway - http://www.talkway.com - Talk more ways (sm)

without immortal grapple potence deck become 'impotent', dodges and s:ce shut them down, yes immortal grapple is a powerful card but as you said manervers can counter it as can elysium, and potence decks still cant touch fortitude, on skin of steel kills all the potence in the world, immortal grapple help maintain a balence between combat decks and "don't hurt me" decks, without immortal grapple ytou would see significantly less combat decks and the game would lose something. If you didn't have to worry about immortal grapple what would stop a tap and blled prescence deck?, yes there is thoughts betrayed, but you would run out of blood fast, and the two card combo of dotb and dawn op requires someone to block the action. Pat Derr Prince of Philly [ quoted text not captured ]

Madman wrote: >>More and more it seems to me that Immortal Grapple is a broken card. That is, it has three characteristics that allow it to dominate any Methusaleh-to-Methusaleh interaction: difficult to prevent, disproportionate results, extremely wide applicability.>> Yes, Immortal Grapple is a powerful card when viewed as an independant component. The problem is, however, that, within a context, decks that use Immortal Grapple are simply not any more effective than any other deck type. As such, yes, IG decks are pretty much the be all and end all of combat, but these decks are not disproportionally effective, when compared to other (non combat) deck types. >>First, it is nearly impossible to counter. Yes, the antidote to IG is the lowly maneuver. The problem is the the antidote can be rather easily countered itself.>> Again, you need to look at the card in context. Yes, the Brujah have access to Cel and plenty of manuvers, but IG Rush decks are *incredibly* card intensive--a given combat can burn through 6-10 cards easily. As a result, such decks need to be very tight, and don't have room for cards that jam your hand or are only conditionally useful. Trying to fit all of the neccessary combat cards into a 90 card deck (Bum's Rush, Torn Signpost, Undead Strength, Immortal Grapple, Taste of Vitae--that is half the deck right there...) is difficult, and when you have to make room for copious manuvers, you run out of room for other stuff you need. As a result, manuvers are often fairly low on the list of "Must make room for" cards. If you have too many, they jam up your hand when your opponents don't have manuvers. If you don't have enough, your opponents will invariably have more manuvers than you. >>For example, the Brujah are usually packing CEL, which has 4 maneuver cards (at least).>> They don't need 4. They only need Flash, which is an incredibly powerful card. Still, you are unlikely to run into more than 8 Flashes in a generic, effective Rush deck. There simply isn't room for any more. >>Or, the tidy IG user can always include Fake Out.>> The lack of card cycling on Fake Out is a sever disadvantage for a Rush deck. >>Moreover, the rush cards carry their own maneuver.>> Block them. Pull out a Zip Gun. Play a couple of manuvers. Wave. >>In other words, maneuvers often don't help against IG.>> I assure you that this is incorrect. Yeah, a half assed inclusion of 4 or 5 Fake Outs isn't going to get you anywhere, but if you are *really* concerned about an IG Rush deck, including 10-12 disciplined manuvers and a bunch of Zip Guns will slow down the Rush deck enough for it to get killed before it kills you. >>Second, IG almost always produces disproportional results, that is I have seen 4-cap vampires completely burn fully-blooded 8- and 9-cap vampires.>> Yes. Again, Rush decks need to be able to do this, otherwise they would not be viable decks. Also again, Rush decks are simply not more effective (in terms of game victory) than compareable Bleed or Vote decks. >>Third, IG will work again nearly any combat defense deck.>> Fortitude/Protean shuts down IG right quick. Obediance shuts down IG right quick. Strong manuver shuts down IG right quick. >>In my (admittedly limited) experience, the Methusaleh with a Potence Rush deck will almost always utterly destroy his/her prey.>> Any deck that can't defend itself against its predator will be utterly destroyed. If you are a S+B deck,and I have no S+B defense (no deflections, no Rush), you will utterly destroy me. If you are a vote deck, and I have no vote defense (no intercept, no Rush) you will utterly destroy me. Yes, when a Rush deck has, as its prey, a deck that has no viable combat defense, it will destroy it. That is what happens when you have no defenses against your predator. On the other hand, having a good supply of combat defense means that the IG Rush deck will be slowed down, and likely ousted before it kills you outright. >>Now, I'm sure that many of you will reply that the Rush Potence deck (a) has trouble actually ousting his/her prey, and (b) often runs out of cards. Well, folks, that is cold cold consolation to the prey who has been savaged by this broken card.>> It has nothing to do with cold consolation. It is part of the reason that such decks aren't completely dominating. They are hard to build. They are hard to play. As a result, you don't run into them that often. Because people don't run into them that often, people don't consider them when building their decks. You always say "hey--how is this deck going to survive against a S+B deck?" and not think twice about including 8 Wakes and 8 Deflections. If those 16 cards were viable IG defense instead (Obediance/Manuver), you would not be as vulnerable to an IG deck. it takes very little to unbalance a Rush deck, and result in in getting ousted instead of it killing you. The problem is that there is never enough room in a deck to include all the defenses you want. Usually, combat defense is on the low end of the "need" list, so it doesn't show up. This is what makes Rush decks go--people not including the needed defenses. Having been playing this sort of deck for years in tournament and non tournament play, I assure you that if people play with viable combat defense (Fortitude, manuvers, Obediance, Elisium), Rush decks are very difficult to actually win with. On the other hand, when you sit down at a game with people who have no combat defense, the Rush deck eats them alive. >>When I first started dropping by this forum, folks were griping about S:CE. Hey, I'd much much rather face S:CE, which of course is primarily defensive, that sit downwind from Rush Potence.>> Play a Ventrue deck with 20% combat defense--10 Skin of Steel/8 Majesty. Throw in an Elisium or two. Your Rush predator will be slowed down enough that either you will oust your prey or the Rush deck will be ousted before you are. You just need to view combat defense as an important aspect of your deck if you expect to see a Rush deck. The Rush deck doesn't need to be shut down. It just needs to be unbalanced. I play a very effective IG Rush deck. It has won tournaments. It wins games on a regular basis. It is a competetive deck, but not overly powerful by any stretch of the imagination. It only has, however, 8 manuvers (from Behind You!) plus the 12 Bum's Rush manuvers. It'll rarely have access to more than 2 manuvers per combat--you have a gun and a manuver card, you are at long range, and my action is wasted, which is very bad for such a deck. Most of the vampires are small (5 or less), so Obediance is usually a very effective defense. Again, a wasted action. Enough wasted actions, and the Rush deck gets killed. Yes, my deck has won a few tournaments, but it has not won far more than it has. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "Since the dawn of time, man has yearned to destroy the sun." -C.M. Burns

On Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:53:18 GMT, "Madman2001" <Mad...@madman.com> wrote: >Folks: > >More and more it seems to me that Immortal Grapple is a broken card. Not broken. Just powerful. >That is, it has three characteristics that allow it to dominate any >Methusaleh-to-Methusaleh interaction: difficult to prevent, >disproportionate results, extremely wide applicability. I question "wide applicability". You must have a vamp with Potence, and you must be using some sort of effective hand strikes. These are either: more Potence, or aggravated hand damage. pot/PRO is a nasty thing to do to people, but difficult to pull off. POT/POT/POT is somewhat easier to pull off, but to guarantee its effectiveness needs to be filed in a POT Rush deck, which has its own problems. >First, it is nearly impossible to counter. Yes, the antidote to IG is A deck which can consistently outmaneuver and Grapple you cannot do anything else, often not even beat you up once it has hold of you. >the lowly maneuver. The problem is the the antidote can be rather >easily countered itself. For example, the Brujah are usually packing >CEL, which has 4 maneuver cards (at least). Or, the tidy IG user can >always include Fake Out. Moreover, the rush cards carry their own >maneuver. In other words, maneuvers often don't help against IG. Fake Out makes me want to hurl. Effective? Yes. Hand-clogging, especially since one is often one card down from a Bum's Rush? Yes. Probably not worth putting in your deck? Yes. (There is a contingent pondering whether Trap is better as an anti-run-away card. It might well be.) >Third, IG will work again nearly any combat defense deck. For. Ti. Tude. I submit that FOR cards and S:CE are the two most used forms of combat defense, with Dodge coming in a distant third. IG will not do squat against superior Fortitude. >In my (admittedly limited) experience, the Methusaleh with a Potence >Rush deck will almost always utterly destroy his/her prey. Now, I'm >sure that many of you will reply that the Rush Potence deck (a) has >trouble actually ousting his/her prey, and (b) often runs out of cards. > Well, folks, that is cold cold consolation to the prey who has been >savaged by this broken card. There are a number of decks which have trouble doing anything other than hosing their predator and/or prey. It's quite easy to build such a deck - an ill-built intercept deck also produces such results (often hosing BOTH predator and prey while totally failing to oust anyone). Should we consider Auspex broken? Potence Rush can actually hold its own in the hands of a skilled player. Sure, it has trouble competing with weenie presence misdirection/bleed for speed, but it also provides an enormous Fear Factor for those weenie decks by its very existence, since a weenie deck sitting next to POT Rush is basically going to be ousted early. >When I first started dropping by this forum, folks were griping about >S:CE. Hey, I'd much much rather face S:CE, which of course is >primarily defensive, that sit downwind from Rush Potence. Would you? The Ventrue block your bleed, Majesty, and untap so they can optionally deflect the next one. Or, on offence, they bleed you, Majesty, untap, and call a damage vote. Either way you're screwed just as much as having all your vampires torched by an IG deck. Probably more, since you always have the option of not bringing out vampires (targets), but you don't have the option of not making your pool available to be voted or bled. -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

> >>More and more it seems to me that Immortal Grapple is a broken card. > That is, it has three characteristics that allow it to dominate any > Methusaleh-to-Methusaleh interaction: difficult to prevent, > disproportionate results, extremely wide applicability.>> > Yes, Immortal Grapple is a powerful card when viewed as an independant > component. The problem is, however, that, within a context, decks that use > Immortal Grapple are simply not any more effective than any other deck type. As > such, yes, IG decks are pretty much the be all and end all of combat, but these > decks are not disproportionally effective, when compared to other (non combat) > deck types. Excuse me? So now we are making the determination on how broken a card is based on how well the decks that use it do? What about Thoughts Betrayed. The combat decks that utilized that card didn't really win a disporportionate number of games but that didn't stop people from bitching and moaning about how broken it was. > >>First, it is nearly impossible to counter. Yes, the antidote to IG is > the lowly maneuver. The problem is the the antidote can be rather > easily countered itself.>> > Again, you need to look at the card in context. Yes, the Brujah have access to > Cel and plenty of manuvers, but IG Rush decks are *incredibly* card > intensive--a given combat can burn through 6-10 cards easily. As a result, such > decks need to be very tight, and don't have room for cards that jam your hand > or are only conditionally useful. Who cares. We are talking about what happens when your vamps are IG'd and now it's not really all that easy to get away from unless you yourself are playing a combat deck that can get away. > Trying to fit all of the neccessary combat cards into a 90 card deck > (Bum's Rush, Torn Signpost, Undead Strength, Immortal Grapple, > Taste of Vitae--that is half the deck right there...) is difficult, Not that difficult. I've built a lot of Cel/Pot decks and it's not often when I don't have the right card in my hand when I need it. > and when you have to make room for copious manuvers, you run out of room for > other stuff you need. Uhh, there are alot of maneuver cards that have multi-purposes that make it much easier for you... > As a result, manuvers are often fairly low on the list of "Must make room for" > cards. All you need are those multi-purpose cards. > If you have too many, they jam up your hand when your opponents don't have > manuvers. Same thing with stealth. It's not that hard to even things out. > If you don't have enough, your opponents will invariably have more manuvers > than you. I find it rare that a deck that isn't a combat deck pack maneuvers. And even if they do, it's not all that many. So all you need is just 1 (2 at max, generally) to get back within range. And once you are there, the other vamp is usually screwed. > >>For example, the Brujah are usually packing > CEL, which has 4 maneuver cards (at least).>> > They don't need 4. They only need Flash, which is an incredibly powerful card. What about Pursuit, which also doubles up as an Additional Strike? > Still, you are unlikely to run into more than 8 Flashes in a generic, effective > Rush deck. There simply isn't room for any more. It doesn't matter. Again, since when is it that the determination on how broken a card is is dependant on how well the deck does that is based on it? It is a given that a Rush deck has a difficult time winning games. This fact was pointed out by the original poster. But it doesn't make much of a difference for that deck's prey (or sometimes predator). Once a vamp is IG'd, there is *very, very* little it can do to defend itself if it too isn't a close quarters combat deck. > >>Moreover, the rush cards carry their own maneuver.>> > Block them. Pull out a Zip Gun. Play a couple of manuvers. Wave. Again, it is very rare that a non-combat deck uses Zip Gun and copious maneuvers of it's own... > I assure you that this is incorrect. Yeah, a half assed inclusion of 4 or 5 > Fake Outs isn't going to get you anywhere, but if you are *really* concerned > about an IG Rush deck, including 10-12 disciplined manuvers and a bunch of Zip > Guns will slow down the Rush deck enough for it to get killed before it kills > you. Ok, and then *you* have hand jam when you aren't facing a Rush deck. Great trade off... > >>Second, IG almost always produces disproportional results, that is I > have seen 4-cap vampires completely burn fully-blooded 8- and 9-cap > vampires.>> > Yes. Again, Rush decks need to be able to do this, otherwise they would not be > viable decks. Also again, Rush decks are simply not more effective (in terms of > game victory) than compareable Bleed or Vote decks. So. TB decks weren't all that more effective (in terms of game victory)... > >>Third, IG will work again nearly any combat defense deck.>> > Fortitude/Protean shuts down IG right quick. Obediance shuts down IG right > quick. Strong manuver shuts down IG right quick. It shuts down the potence aspect of the deck. It shuts down the ability for that deck's vamps to put it's own vamps into torpor. What it doesn't shut down is the fact that you *still* can only use hand strikes, regardless of whatever other tricks were up your sleeve. > >>Now, I'm sure that many of you will reply that the Rush Potence deck (a) has > trouble actually ousting his/her prey, and (b) often runs out of cards. > Well, folks, that is cold cold consolation to the prey who has been > savaged by this broken card.>> > It has nothing to do with cold consolation. It is part of the reason that such > decks aren't completely dominating. True. But again, when does that determine how broken a card is? > They are hard to build. Not that hard... > They are hard to play. They are hard to play and win with. They are not hard to play to be able to decimate vamps. > As a result, you don't run into them that often. So. That doesn't lessen the overall effect that IG has on the environment. > Because people don't run into them that often, people don't consider them > when building their decks. People down here run into them all the time. Sometimes what they add helps, most often it doesn't. > The problem is that there is never enough room in a deck to include all the > defenses you want. Exactly. So who is going to put in a crap load of maneuvers and sacrifice their defenses for the other archetypes? Or sacrifice their offensive power? > Usually, combat defense is on the low end of the "need" list, so it doesn't > show up. This is what makes Rush decks go--people not including the > needed defenses. Not true. Defenses show up down here. Generally, it's not enough. > Having been playing this sort of deck for years in tournament and non > tournament play, I assure you that if people play with viable combat defense > (Fortitude, manuvers, Obediance, Elisium), Rush decks are very difficult to > actually win with. This is *not* the issue and I do not understand why you keep bringing it up. Who cares if the deck is difficult or not to win with. The point that is being made is that the _one_ card, Immortal Grapple, is overly powerful. > >>When I first started dropping by this forum, folks were griping about > S:CE. Hey, I'd much much rather face S:CE, which of course is > primarily defensive, that sit downwind from Rush Potence.>> > Play a Ventrue deck with 20% combat defense--10 Skin of Steel/8 Majesty. Throw > in an Elisium or two. Your Rush predator will be slowed down enough that either > you will oust your prey or the Rush deck will be ousted before you are. Again, this deals with winning with the deck. The only thing that is going to actually help that Ventrue deck is the Elysium. Yes, the SoS is going to make it so that the vamps don't take damage, but they still can only hit with hands due to the IG. Can they use those Majesties? Nope. > I play a very effective IG Rush deck. It has won tournaments. It wins games on > a regular basis. It is a competetive deck, but not overly powerful by any > stretch of the imagination. Not talking about the deck. Talking about the card. If you used that same deck w/o the IG, would it be able to do anything? No. At issue is the card and how well it does, not how well the decks do. Sorrow --- "Are they dead?" - Pugsly "Does it matter?" - Wednesday

I feel your pain, but I have bigger worries than a IG deck. Most of the things I fear are not combat. Politics is a killer. Hell, if IG is bad then Awe and Voter Cap is unbearable. Have you ever had a stealthy vote deck Minion Tap then call KRC or Consanguinous Boon and then Awe- Voter Cap. combo. That is broken. I'll take a good lump on the head anyday rather than get the lightning sucked out of me by this hideous pool gain combo. I am not asking for this combo to be errataed but rather I am placing it here so that all may see how trivial IG is in comparison. In fact IG is one of the few counters to the above mentioned combo. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Don't take this personally, but didn't someone other than you play your IG deck at the last tourney. I don't think it made it to the finales. In fact, I clobbered it with a combat deck of my own: Domestic Distubance ( weenie presence bleed with sewer lids and celerity). I ran away from it pretty easily. IG is fantastic for beating up the pansy clans, but against a good long range deck, it just sits there and gets pounded. [ quoted text not captured ]

Sorrow wrote: >>Excuse me? So now we are making the determination on how broken a card is based on how well the decks that use it do? What about Thoughts Betrayed. The combat decks that utilized that card didn't really win a disporportionate number of games but that didn't stop people from bitching and moaning about how broken it was.>> I'm not determining whether anything is broken. I am pointing out that IG is a powerful card, but the effect it has on the environment is not greater than it should be. Without IG, combat, as a strategy, is impossible to succeed with. With IG, combat is a viable, but not overly powerful strategy. Many found TB to be outside of the spirit of the original game paradigm. Thus, it was changed. >>Who cares. We are talking about what happens when your vamps are IG'd and now it's not really all that easy to get away from unless you yourself are playing a combat deck that can get away.>> I claim that this is not the case. >>Not that difficult. I've built a lot of Cel/Pot decks and it's not often when I don't have the right card in my hand when I need it.>> If you have too many of too different cards, you don't get the ones you need when you need them. >>Uhh, there are alot of maneuver cards that have multi-purposes that make it much easier for you...>> These cards all require superior CEL to do something other than manuver. If you are building a deck that is going to have enough CEL to make use of these multi-purpose cards, you are either using large vampires (which will get you killed) or *lots* of Celerity skill cards, which you don't have room for. A Rush deck *needs* POT. If it has to have CEL too, it just isn't getting anywhere. >>All you need are those multi-purpose cards.>> And the CEL to make it work. I assure you, you aren't going to make a viable Rush deck that will consistiently have POT and CEL. >>I find it rare that a deck that isn't a combat deck pack maneuvers.>> Yes--that is why the IG decks kill them. If they did pack manuvers, the IG decks wouldn't kill them. Do you find it rare that a deck that isn't a bleed deck packs bleed bounce? >>And even if they do, it's not all that many. So all you need is just 1 (2 at max, generally) to get back within range. And once you are there, the other vamp is usually screwed.>> Yup. If you are worried about IG, you use manuvers. If you are worried about S+B, you add bleed bounce. If you are worried about votes, you add intercept. Every strategy has a foil. >>What about Pursuit, which also doubles up as an Additional Strike?>> At CEL. Relying on CEL in a Rush deck is fruitless. >>It doesn't matter. Again, since when is it that the determination on how broken a card is is dependant on how well the deck does that is based on it? It is a given that a Rush deck has a difficult time winning games. This fact was pointed out by the original poster. But it doesn't make much of a difference for that deck's prey (or sometimes predator). Once a vamp is IG'd, there is *very, very* little it can do to defend itself if it too isn't a close quarters combat deck.>> Or is using Fortitude. Or is using Obediance to avoid combat all together. Or has manuvers to not get caught. >>Again, it is very rare that a non-combat deck uses Zip Gun and copious maneuvers of it's own...>> Only because they don't want to be able to defend themselves against IG. If you are worried about IG combat, you include defenses against it, much like you include bleed defenses if you are worried about S+B. >>Ok, and then *you* have hand jam when you aren't facing a Rush deck. Great trade off...>> If you are using Deflections, and your opponent never bleeds you, then *they* jam your hand. Every defense needs to be weighed against the likelyhood of you needing it. Just because Rush decks aren't that common doesn't mean you shouldn't need to have to weigh the cost of defense against them. >>So. TB decks weren't all that more effective (in terms of game victory)...>> Again, the problem with TB was that it removed too much of the game from play. >>They are hard to play and win with. They are not hard to play to be able to decimate vamps.>> They are if their opponents have defenses. If your opponents can't defend themselves against whatever strategy you are using, you will decimate them, regardless of the strategy you are using. >>So. That doesn't lessen the overall effect that IG has on the environment.>> Correct. The effect that IG has on the environment is that it makes combat a viable strategy. Without it, combat would be unplayable, as combat defense is simply too effective and too easy, compared to the amount of work it takes to make a combat deck work. >>People down here run into them all the time. Sometimes what they add helps, most often it doesn't.>> If they run into them all the time, they should be able to make very effective anti-combat decks, and not have to worry about the opportunity cost of the defenses. If you are playing against a lot of combat decks, make a deck with 18 Flashes in it. You will shut them down. >>Exactly. So who is going to put in a crap load of maneuvers and sacrifice their defenses for the other archetypes? Or sacrifice their offensive power?>> The people who want to not get killed by IG decks. If you change the question to "Who is going to put in a crap load of deflections?" because of rampant S+B, no one is going to think twice about doing so. >>Not true. Defenses show up down here. Generally, it's not enough.>> Then use more. >>This is *not* the issue and I do not understand why you keep bringing it up.>> Apparently 'cause I thought to myself "Hmm. How can I most irritate Sorrow." as I was writing my post. >>Who cares if the deck is difficult or not to win with. The point that is being made is that the _one_ card, Immortal Grapple, is overly powerful.>> As it is easily countered by common defenses--manuvers, Obediance, Fortitude, aggro hand strikes, it is hard to agree that it is overly powerful. >>Again, this deals with winning with the deck. The only thing that is going to actually help that Ventrue deck is the Elysium. Yes, the SoS is going to make it so that the vamps don't take damage, but they still can only hit with hands due to the IG.>> Why does the Ventrue deck care how it hurts the opposing vampire? The SoS keeps you alive, so you can oust your prey. Who cares if you hurt the attacker? >>Can they use those Majesties? Nope.>> They can when they aren't IGed, and they work just fine against non IG decks (thus are easily cycled). 20% combat defense is not unreasonable when you expect to see a lot of Rush combat, much like heavy bleed bounce isn't unreasonable when you expect to see a lot of S+B. >>Not talking about the deck.>> Glad to hear that. >>Talking about the card.>> Yup. >>If you used that same deck w/o the IG, would it be able to do anything? No.>> Exactly. Without IG, combay isn't viable. With it, it is viable, but not over powered. Don't really see the problem. >>At issue is the card and how well it does, not how well the decks do.>> Cards exist to make decks go. IG exists, and because it does, Rush combat is a viable, but not overpowered strategy. Again, where in lies the problem? [ quoted text not captured ]

Norman wrote: (It is always a good idea to quote a few lines from who you are responding to...) >>Don't take this personally, but didn't someone other than you play your IG deck at the last tourney. I don't think it made it to the finales.>> Umm, me? I couldn't tell you--which tourney, who was playing what? I haven't been to a tourney for a while, so you are probably thinking of someone completely different. >>In fact, I clobbered it with a combat deck of my own: Domestic Distubance ( weenie presence bleed with sewer lids and celerity). I ran away from it pretty easily. IG is fantastic for beating up the pansy clans, but against a good long range deck, it just sits there and gets pounded.>> Pretty much supports my point. IG is easily stopped--you just need to try. Ignoring it won't make it go away. The thing to do is: Use manuvers to get away. Use lots of Fortitude. Use Obediance. Be better at fighting than they are. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:44:15 -0500, "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote: >Excuse me? So now we are making the determination on how broken a >card is based on how well the decks that use it do? What about Thoughts >Betrayed. The combat decks that utilized that card didn't really win a >disporportionate number of games but that didn't stop people from bitching >and moaning about how broken it was. Thoughts Betrayed was of much more use to the Ventrue as a combat DEFENSE than it was to any combat offense deck. They no longer even required Majesty, although most used it for the untap ability anyway. And who cared about the two blood cost? These are the Ventrue. They Voter Cap/5th Tradition everything in sight as necessary. NOW do you understand why Thoughts Betrayed was broken? >Who cares. We are talking about what happens when your vamps are IG'd >and now it's not really all that easy to get away from unless you yourself >playing a combat deck that can get away. You have 8 Deflections in your deck, right? Substitute 8 maneuvers. Either you can't be killed by bleed decks, or you can't be killed by combat. Take your pick. It's much easier to get away from IG than you think - a simple Aid from Bats worked fine for me in a recent tournament (an IG deck was my prey, and I repeatedly intercepted him with no harm to my own guys. Next round, he was MY predator, and was careful to save all his maneuvers for me only, instead of discarding them...) >> Trying to fit all of the neccessary combat cards into a 90 card deck >> (Bum's Rush, Torn Signpost, Undead Strength, Immortal Grapple, >> Taste of Vitae--that is half the deck right there...) is difficult, > >Not that difficult. I've built a lot of Cel/Pot decks and it's not often >when I don't have the right card in my hand when I need it. Perhaps, but the original point is that POT/CEL decks can do only one thing well - beat up vampires. They bleed for 1 per vamp, making them a risky proposition to win with. Using your example, a Thoughts Betrayed deck bled for a LOT more than 1 per vamp, and also called plenty of votes. It was immune to combat, and was NOT a very risky proposition at all to win with, except someone else might be playing that same deck and you would contest vampires. >Uhh, there are alot of maneuver cards that have multi-purposes that make it >much easier for you... What, Pursuit? I'd rather have a Blur, since most of my guys will be POT or POT/cel, and that way I can always additional strike. Pursuit isn't a BAD card, but including very many of those would drive you nuts when you didn't happen to have a CEL vampire handy. >All you need are those multi-purpose cards. You mean Pursuit? What other "those" are you thinking of? I look through Celerity, and I discover that there are only three cards which grant maneuvers: Flash, Pursuit, and Rapid Thought. Flash and Pursuit have been discussed. Rapid Thought is vastly inferior to both in an IG combat deck, and won't be seen. >I find it rare that a deck that isn't a combat deck pack maneuvers. And You don't play around here much then. Maneuvers work well against many decks, not just IG decks - a lot of nasty combat happens at close range, and if nothing else, you save a blood off your guy. Sending a token vamp in to bleed and using up your maneuver to tap someone for free is also highly effective... maneuvers are NOT just for breakfast anymore. =) > >> >>For example, the Brujah are usually packing >> CEL, which has 4 maneuver cards (at least).>> As seen above, this is wrong. They only have 2 1/2 (Rapid Thought is not very impressive.) >> They don't need 4. They only need Flash, which is an incredibly powerful >card. > >What about Pursuit, which also doubles up as an Additional Strike? What about Flash, which also provides a press for those pesky times when someone outmaneuvers you? Since you're talking about a CEL vampire here (or Pursuit is worthless), you can play a Flash to try to catch someone, they use a Fake Out and Zip Gun to get away. You press, from that SAME FLASH card. They are out of maneuvers and you knock their greasy little block off. Of course, POT/CEL is too expensive to get in a Rush deck, found only on Anvil or Jimmy Dunn. POT/cel is much better. >It doesn't matter. Again, since when is it that the determination on how >broken >a card is is dependant on how well the deck does that is based on it? It is The definition of "broken", for me, is "provides a game imbalance that can be exploited to significant advantage for the player". Thoughts Betrayed was like this. Return to Innocence was like this. Pulled Fangs was like this. Fame was like this. Majesty is STILL like this, and is only kept in check slightly by Immortal Grapple. Immortal Grapple is NOT LIKE THIS. I have difficulty even saying that it provides a game imbalance, but I absolutely, totally object to the thought that IG can be exploited to *SIGNIFICANT* advantage for the IG-deck player. You can vaporize all your prey's vampires and all your predator's vampires with an IG deck and accomplish nothing but get all three of you ousted by your grand-predator's Hideous Weenie Horde. NOWHERE is anyone afraid of an IG deck coming in and "sweeping a tournament again". But they sure as hell were afraid of the RtI and Thoughts Betrayed decks... and the Hostile Takeover decks are still pretty damn mean. >prey (or sometimes predator). Once a vamp is IG'd, there is *very, very* >little >it can do to defend itself if it too isn't a close quarters combat deck. Fortitude, fortitude, fortitude, fortitude. Or, if you've got Protean, poke their eye out. >> >>Moreover, the rush cards carry their own maneuver.>> >> Block them. Pull out a Zip Gun. Play a couple of manuvers. Wave. > >Again, it is very rare that a non-combat deck uses Zip Gun and copious >maneuvers of it's own... Then it plays against too much S&B and not enough combat. I've stuck Zip Guns in my decks before, because I'd much rather take a point at long range than take 7 at close. It's very simple - block the Rush, pull out the Zip Gun. If he doesn't have a maneuver in his SIX CARD HAND, combat fails and your guy lives. Your Zip Gun stays around, too, so now that vampire has 1 maneuver -every- combat. >Ok, and then *you* have hand jam when you aren't facing a Rush deck. >Great trade off... What's the difference between being blocked by a vampire and trading punches for 1 at close range, and between being blocked by a vampire, pulling out a Zip Gun, and shooting him for 1 at long range? >So. TB decks weren't all that more effective (in terms of game victory)... This is a tragically wrong statement, unless you assume that the only TB decks were combat decks. The Tremere sure don't do very well with TB combat. >It shuts down the potence aspect of the deck. It shuts down the ability for >that >deck's vamps to put it's own vamps into torpor. What it doesn't shut down >is >the fact that you *still* can only use hand strikes, regardless of whatever >other >tricks were up your sleeve. Who cares? You're a fast bleed deck. Are you THAT desirous of beating the snot out of your opponent? Besides, you can't use IG at long range. Just pack some nice long range combat, if you want to beat the hell out of people but don't want to be IG'd. The deck I mentioned above used Aid from Bats, Carrion Crows, and a couple Murder of Crows to hand out 3-5 points of damage at range per round. Aid from Bats provides a convenient press, so I didn't have much trouble killing people who didn't S:CE (dodge being worthless against CC and MoC). >> It has nothing to do with cold consolation. It is part of the reason that >such >> decks aren't completely dominating. > >True. But again, when does that determine how broken a card is? See above. What other criteria would you use to determine how broken a card is? I could point out that Rotshit is pretty broken, taken as ONLY a card - it defeats almost EVERYTHING, including Fortitude, IG, Majesty, etc... But is Rotshit broken? No, because there's no way to exploit it more effectively than anything else. Legbiter's Rotshit decks are functional, but not over-powerful, since it can only pull its trick off once per turn. >> They are hard to build. > >Not that hard... If you want to build one that has a hope of winning, they are hard to build. >> They are hard to play. > >They are hard to play and win with. They are not hard to play to be able to >decimate vamps. Well, I can play an intercept deck and totally screw my predator until I run out of cards and we both get ousted. Is Auspex broken? Should the Tzimisce be removed from the set? >> As a result, you don't run into them that often. > >So. That doesn't lessen the overall effect that IG has on the environment. What overall effect? People either include maneuvers and IG has a hard go of it, or they include Majesties and die miserably like the presence-bleeders they are. People can also include Deflections and bleed decks have a hard go of it, or they include intercept and the Malks run over them like a week-old possum. >Exactly. So who is going to put in a crap load of maneuvers and sacrifice >their defenses for the other archetypes? Or sacrifice their offensive >power? Someone who doesn't want to die if they happen to sit next to a combat deck? My PRO/dom deck has room for either 7 Delaying Tactics, or 7 Quick Melds. I flipped a coin before playing it in the tournament, because I knew I could either shut down votes *OR* combat. The coin said "DT", so I put the DTs in and sure nuff, there was ONE vote deck out of 18 players. There were, unfortunately for me, five Potence combat decks. I now consider maneuvers much higher on the list of "things to stick in the deck if you're going to a tournament.", cause if I'd put in the Quick Melds I probably could've swept all 3 tables I played at instead of just one. (Sat behind a Rush deck, which correctly decided to remove me first. Next round, sat as grandpredator of a Rush deck, ousted my prey, then got my vampires violently abused by THAT Rush deck.) >Not true. Defenses show up down here. Generally, it's not enough. Can't figure that out. Sure, you may lose ONE vampire to the deck, but it'll be out of maneuvers quick enough and then you just run away. Zip Guns, eh? >> Having been playing this sort of deck for years in tournament and non >> tournament play, I assure you that if people play with viable combat >defense >> (Fortitude, manuvers, Obediance, Elisium), Rush decks are very difficult >to >> actually win with. > >This is *not* the issue and I do not understand why you keep bringing it up. But it IS the issue. What do you think the issue is? Please respond with some sort of -reasoning- behind why you believe cards should be singled out as 'broken' just because people can play poorly and screw someone else that way? I personally believe that most players build a deck with the intent that it win, ie. gain victory points. Someone who plays an IG deck well will do well. Someone who plays an IG deck poorly will do poorly. Someone who plays a Ventrue vote deck poorly and tosses Hostile Takeovers and Parity Shifts all over the place will ALSO do poorly, possibly screwing other players at the table. Are the Ventrue broken, or just powerful? >Who cares if the deck is difficult or not to win with. The point that is >made is that the _one_ card, Immortal Grapple, is overly powerful. See above. A powerful card isn't worth crap if you can't find a way to use it to win with. How about Shadow of the Beast? Protean, costs 1 blood. Card text: "Put this card on the acting vampire. The vampire with this card gets one optional maneuver each combat. A vampire may have only one Shadow of the Beast. (S) As above, and this vampire gets an optional press each combat." This is one HELL of a powerful card. But is it broken? No? Why not? It gives a vampire a built-in Flash -every- combat. It can't be removed - at ALL. It can be blocked, but who REALLY wants to block the guy with agg hand damage? ... But the fact of the matter is, it's NOT broken, for various reasons which all deal with whether Protean combat decks can consistently gain VPs. >Again, this deals with winning with the deck. The only thing that is going >to actually >help that Ventrue deck is the Elysium. Yes, the SoS is going to make it so Um, the Skin of Steels are going to run the Rush deck out of offensive combat -very- quickly. He may press to a 2nd round, but NOW you can Majesty unless he wastes another IG - and most Rush decks don't include more than 12 IGs. Messy, messy. If he has to use 2 IGs to kill every ONE of your vampires, he will be ousted by his predator rapidly since he won't be able to kill his predator's vamps. >that the >vamps don't take damage, but they still can only hit with hands due to the >IG. Can >they use those Majesties? Nope. Sure, they can - use 'em on the OTHER guy they're sitting next to, who probably isn't playing IG Rush. [ quoted text not captured ]

> >>Don't take this personally, but didn't someone other than you play your > IG deck at the last tourney. I don't think it made it to the finales.>> > Umm, me? I couldn't tell you--which tourney, who was playing what? I haven't > been to a tourney for a while, so you are probably thinking of someone > completely different. He was talking about me and my deck. He is correct, it didn't make it into the finals and it didn't do at all well in the preliminaries. However... Norm wrote: > >>In fact, I clobbered it with a combat deck of my own: Domestic > Distubance ( weenie presence bleed with sewer lids and celerity). I ran > away from it pretty easily. IG is fantastic for beating up the pansy > clans, but against a good long range deck, it just sits there and gets > pounded.>> First, I never disputed that if you *could* maneuver away, IG is useless. But as I said before, you have to be playing a ranged deck to have any kind of chance. Second, my deck was played by a relative newbie. I believe that she had been playing for just a couple of months? The fact that she did poorly with it is certainly no indication as to how good the deck is. Do you know how well it did at the other games you were not in? Also, I have no idea how much of her doing badly had to do with seating position relative to you or how much you influenced things through politicking. I've seen you get out of really nasty scrapes by talking your way out. If I had played that deck, I'm sure things would have been very different. Peter wrote: > Pretty much supports my point. IG is easily stopped--you just need to try. > Ignoring it won't make it go away. The thing to do is: > Use manuvers to get away. Not as effective against Cel/Pot > Use lots of Fortitude. Doesn't stop the *effect* of IG > Use Obediance. Yup > Be better at fighting than they are. Only hand to hand. If you are using anything else, IG completely screws you. Sorrow

>Use manuvers to get away. >Use lots of Fortitude. >Use Obedience. >Be better at fighting than they are. Well, the only one of these options universally available is "use maneuvers to get away". The others require superior Fortitude, Dominance, and Potence or Protean. And, as I have noted, the maneuvers will only work if the IG player has none. I have not seen anything yet that contradicts my earlier point, that IG is broken because: (a) there is no counter, (b) it provides disproportionate results, and (c) it shuts down all strikes/works against wide variety of decks. Now, to be honest, there are counters to IG such as Shackles or Enkidu or Elysium, but they are not counters to IG in the way that IG is a counter to S:CE. [ quoted text not captured ]

Madman wrote: >>Well, the only one of these options universally available is "use maneuvers to get away". The others require superior Fortitude, Dominance, and Potence or Protean. And, as I have noted, the maneuvers will only work if the IG player has none.>> As I have pointed out at length (as has Derek), this is not the case. It is easy to have more manuvers than a Rush deck if you are really concerned about them and still have a viable deck than it is to have enough manuvers in a Rush deck to get the people who keep running away. The other defenses require other disciplines, yes. Luckily, other clans have different disciplines: The Brujah can use Flash and Zip Guns to get away, or fight better. The Toreador can use Flash and Zip Guns to get away. The Ventrue can use Obediance or Fortitude. The Gangrel can use Fortitude or fight better. The Malkavians can use Obediance or manuvers and Zip Guns. The Tremere can use Obediance or manuver to get away. The Nosferatu can fight better. Every clan in the game has the ability to counter IG Rush combat. Again, the reason people aren't very successful at doing so is because they aren't trying hard enough, becuase they don't generally consider it important to try. Everyone has defenses against S+B or votes. No one has defenses against combat. Put in superior combat defense, the the IG deck is screwed. >>(a) there is no counter,>> Derek and I have pointed out many, many counters. They work. If you are in a heavy combat environment, and you are playing a long range combat deck, a generic Gangrel deck, or a Fortitude deck, the IG deck is in a bad place. I assure you that this is the case. >>(b) it provides disproportionate results, and>> What--it allows a 4 point vampire to kill an 8 point vampire? What makes this disproportionate? Is it dispropotionate that a 4 point vampire can bleed for 8 points? Using DOM--a 4 point vamp needs POT to kill a bigger vampire--GtuA, Cond, Command the Beast, Lap Top or something. This is roughly equivelant to the effort that it takes for a 4 point vampire to kill an 8 point vampire. Does this mean that Conditioning is broken, as it allows a 4 point vampire to bleed for 8? This is a complete non issue. >>(c) it shuts down all strikes/works against wide variety of decks.>> Except the ones that can defend against it. Which is the same thing that can be said about any strategy. [ quoted text not captured ]

Sorrow wrote: << Not as effective against Cel/Pot >> Again--it is difficult to have enough manuvers in a Rush deck, even a POT/cel deck. Having 2 reliable manuvers per combat (from a Zip Gun and a Flash, for instance) is often enough to slow down a Rush deck enough to get it killed. Any deck can include 6 Zip Guns and a dozen Flashes/Swallowed By Night and still be perfectly good at what it wants to do if it is really concerned about IG combat. << Doesn't stop the *effect* of IG >> The effect of IG is to kill you. If you have Fortitude, the IG fails to kill you. << Only hand to hand. If you are using anything else, IG completely screws you. >> Hand to hand means playing your own IG deck or being a Gangrel, both of which work well against IG. Or, you can play viable long range combat. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <%WkI4.2$0n5...@c01read04.service.talkway.com>, "Madman2001" <Mad...@madman.com> wrote: > >Use manuvers to get away. > >Use lots of Fortitude. > >Use Obedience. > >Be better at fighting than they are. > Well, the only one of these options universally available is "use > maneuvers to get away". The others require superior Fortitude, > Dominance, and Potence or Protean. And, as I have noted, the maneuvers > will only work if the IG player has none. > > I have not seen anything yet that contradicts my earlier point, that IG > is broken because: > > (a) there is no counter, There are several counters, surely? Obedience, Elysium, damage prevention, manouever have all been mentioned. Rotshreck is another, if you've tried agg hand damage. Extra strikes from celerity can also work out fine. And you do realise that if you block the ambush or Bum's rush that the acting minion doesn't get his/her manouever? So tooled-up minions can often get away from IG. For this reason i tend to put fake outs in my weenie rush decks. > (b) it provides disproportionate results, If it works it takes out a vamp. So do Banishment, Pentex Subversion and Sensory Deprivation. It's harder to use IG combat than any of these one- card tricks. How, therefore, can you maintain it's disproportionate? and > (c) it shuts down all strikes/works against wide variety of decks. > Not all strikes. Only non-hand strikes. You're thinking of Thoughts betrayed, matey. THAT shuts down all strikes. Or Majesty, maybe. That shuts down all non-IG non-Thoughts betrayed strikes. i'll concede it works against a wide variety of decks. So does weenie vote, weenie bleed, big vote n bloat, Setite corruption, Malkavian OOT rush combat [even better than IG at sticking folks into torpor]. i don't see that this is an issue however. > Now, to be honest, there are counters to IG such as Shackles or Enkidu > or Elysium, but they are not counters to IG in the way that IG is a > counter to S:CE. > > Madman It sounds to me as if your playgroup has just discovered the Joys of Rush-Combat. That's Good! You have just taken your first steps into a larger world. Rest assured that the bleeders and voters will still be able to make a splash once you've absorbed the information in this thread properly. But i think you'll find it's more fun to fight fire with fire, and play combat yourself. Once you have built and played an IG rush deck yourself you will see just how difficult it is to get this tactic to work - even if you do everything right a heavy sneak-bleeder up your tail or an unlucky hand can squash you good and proper. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <%WkI4.2$0n5...@c01read04.service.talkway.com>, "Madman2001" <Mad...@madman.com> wrote: > >Use manuvers to get away. > >Use lots of Fortitude. > >Use Obedience. > >Be better at fighting than they are. > Well, the only one of these options universally available is "use > maneuvers to get away". The others require superior Fortitude, > Dominance, and Potence or Protean. And, as I have noted, the maneuvers > will only work if the IG player has none. > > I have not seen anything yet that contradicts my earlier point, that IG > is broken because: > snip Actually, you should have seen the way Immortal Grapple use to work. Prior to errata on the card, at superior - Immortal Grapple could force a second round of hand strikes only while skipping the Manuever Phase. This was felt to be too strong and was thus reworded. > (a) there is no counter, There are plenty of counters. You just have to read what Peter and Derek have been posting. > (b) it provides disproportionate results snip What it proves is if Immortal Grapple is identified as a broken card, then Combat will get sucked down the drain insofar as an offensive strategy. This would affect Brujah (and their Anti's), Nosferatu (and their Anti's), Giovanni and Lasombra. As it stands now: The Brujah can perform politics on an average scale (when compared to Ventrue and Toreador), bleed on an average scale (when compared to the Malkavians, Toreador and Setites), and combat on a superior scale (like the Nosferatu, Giovanni and Lasombra), only they have Celerity to augment their capability. The Nosferatu can perform politics on a poor scale (when compared to Ventrue and Toreador), bleed on a poor scale (when compared to Malkavians, Toreador and Setites), and combat on a superior scale (like the Brujah, Giovanni and Lasombra). The Giovanni have to go to special measures to compete with politics. Bleeds can be accomplished with Dominate but with poor stealth capabilities it is quite easy to stop it. Combat is where they can enforce their calling as a clan. The Lasombra can work politics on an average scale (when compared to Ventrue and Toreador), bleed on an above average scale due to a stronger stealth capability and strong combat capability that is in line with the Nosferatu and Giovanni. (The Gangrel are unique combatants and therefore not included.) You take away the Immortal Grapple and you remove the strongest capability of these clans. > (c) it shuts down all strikes/works against wide variety of decks. Only if the opposing minion is caught by the Immortal Grapple. Again, a COMMON maneuver foils it. Fortitude at normal can blunt it, while superior foils it. Aggravated damage capability can deter it's use or when coupled with Rotschreck stops it dead. Direct Intervention can stop it. Thoughts Betrayed doesn't stop the play of Immortal Grapple but it stops the additional strike damage from occurring. First Strike/Aggravated damage beats it before damage back can be inflicted. Blood of Acid at normal will inflict more damage upon the opponent when you add your strike as well, and at superior will inflict aggravated damage upon the opponent (therefore it acts as a good damage reducer). Etc... You only have to pick one of the above and TRY to work with it in your deck. > > Now, to be honest, there are counters to IG such as Shackles or Enkidu > or Elysium, but they are not counters to IG in the way that IG is a > counter to S:CE. Damn straight it is a counter to S:CE. Besides Dog Pack (Gangrel), Thoughts Betrayed (Dominate), Psyche (Celerity and not really a counter) and Drawing out the Beast (Animalism) what other cards are the counter to Strike: Combat Ends? Michael Eichler -- Your enemy might become your friend, if you allow them to be who he/she is. (Just so long as they are across the table from you. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

> << Not as effective against Cel/Pot >> > Again--it is difficult to have enough manuvers in a Rush deck, even a POT/cel > deck. Again I contend that it is not that difficult. > Having 2 reliable manuvers per combat (from a Zip Gun and a Flash, for > instance) is often enough to slow down a Rush deck enough to get it killed. Please tell me how a non-combat deck is going to have more reliable maneuvers than a combat deck that, for the most part, relies on the to keep things at close? > Any deck can include 6 Zip Guns and a dozen Flashes/Swallowed By > Night and still be perfectly good at what it wants to do if it is really > concerned about IG combat. A deck that has 18 cards that grant maneuvers (6 of which can be used to cause damage) is seriously watering down itself. > << Doesn't stop the *effect* of IG >> > The effect of IG is to kill you. If you have Fortitude, the IG fails to kill > you. Really? I must have missed the death clause on that card. When I read it, all it says is that (paraphrase) all but hand strikes are denied. So regardless of what kind of combat cards you have, once you are IG'd, it's effect is still occuring. > << Only hand to hand. If you are using anything else, IG completely screws > you. >> > Hand to hand means playing your own IG deck or being a Gangrel, both of > which work well against IG. Or, you can play viable long range combat. Does not matter. I'm not sure how many more times I have to say this. Once you are IG'd, you *cannot play any cards* that are not hand strikes/ hand damage. Compare IG to TB which basically does the same thing, but at the cost of 2 blood. The only thing that TB does above and beyond IG is that it doesn't allow you to play strike cards even if they are hand strikes/hand damage. Fortitude still effectively counters it (in that your vamp doesn't die; an argument that you seem to think has any bearing on the overall effectiveness of a card), you can still Wolf's Claws/Bone Spur/Etc. still work when it's played, yadda, yadda. So for what it does v. what it costs, especially when compared to other cards with similar effect, yes, IG is overpowered (or broken, depending on your view). Sorrow

On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:46:35 GMT, "Madman2001" <Mad...@madman.com> wrote: >Well, the only one of these options universally available is "use >maneuvers to get away". The others require superior Fortitude, >Dominance, and Potence or Protean. And, as I have noted, the maneuvers >will only work if the IG player has none. And sometimes, that's all you need. an IG player does not pack that many maneuvers in a deck, because he wants his deck to beat up things, not run around chasing people. When you get caught with three Flashes in hand after two no-maneuver-required combats, you begin to understand why you can't put more than about 8 maneuvers in an IG deck. If a POT Rush deck isn't killing one vampire with every action, his deck is slowly on the slide into oblivion (unless he's out of vampires to kill and is bleeding for 1.) >I have not seen anything yet that contradicts my earlier point, that IG >is broken because: > >(a) there is no counter, Use maneuvers to get away. That's a counter. There are other counters as well. >(b) it provides disproportionate results, and >(c) it shuts down all strikes/works against wide variety of decks. It does -not- shut down all strikes. It also doesn't work *well* against that wide a variety of decks, as you'd know if you ever tried to play IG in a tournament. >Now, to be honest, there are counters to IG such as Shackles or Enkidu >or Elysium, but they are not counters to IG in the way that IG is a >counter to S:CE. If you're thinking that somehow poor little S:CE has got the raw end of the stick, you have achieved QUITE the wrong perspective on the balance of power in this game. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

"Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote: > Peter wrote: > > << Not as effective against Cel/Pot >> > > Again--it is difficult to have enough manuvers in a Rush deck, even > > a POT/cel deck. > > Again I contend that it is not that difficult. You are correct that it isn't that difficult to have enough maneuvers. But to have enough maneuvers and not jam when you don't run into a deck that has maneuvers of its own (combat decks are not that common, after all), that *is* difficult unless you are using some sort of pitch deck. And in that case you aren't using IG combat anyway. > > Having 2 reliable manuvers per combat (from a Zip Gun and a Flash, > > for instance) is often enough to slow down a Rush deck enough to get > > it killed. > > Please tell me how a non-combat deck is going to have more reliable > maneuvers than a combat deck that, for the most part, relies on the to > keep things at close? Actually, for the most part, IG decks don't rely on maneuvers. They rely on other decks *not* having maneuvers. Just as most decks (bleed and vote decks are the norm I'd say) are constructed without IG combat in mind, IG decks are constructed using that same principle. If nobody plans for it, the deck will do fine. A little planning and the deck will be stopped. You could say somewhat the opposite about those bleed decks. Almost everyone plans for them with a little bleed defense, so it's hard to build one that nobody will be ready for. > > Any deck can include 6 Zip Guns and a dozen Flashes/Swallowed By > > Night and still be perfectly good at what it wants to do if it is > > really concerned about IG combat. > > A deck that has 18 cards that grant maneuvers (6 of which can be used > to cause damage) is seriously watering down itself. This is an example though, of a deck that is *really* concerned with IG combat. The deck using the Flashes is probably itself a combat deck, so those cards would not water the deck down. And Swallowed by Night is just a very useful card, which grants stealth to not get caught, or the maneuver to not get caught even after you're caught. A fantastic multi-use card for any stealth action deck. Throw it in for your stealth, and you also get to use it for the maneuver in combat. > > << Doesn't stop the *effect* of IG >> > > The effect of IG is to kill you. If you have Fortitude, the IG fails > > to kill you. > > Really? I must have missed the death clause on that card. When I > read it, all it says is that (paraphrase) all but hand strikes are > denied. > So regardless of what kind of combat cards you have, once you are > IG'd, it's effect is still occuring. Well, you're both just being smart here. True, damage prevention doesn't stop the *effect* of IG. But it does stop the card from being useful. You can say the same thing about bleeding and reduction. Reducing the bleed doesn't stop the effect of the bleed, but it did make the bleed useless. It isn't the *effect* of IG that makes it dangerous, it's what those decks that use it do with other things when they IG you. > > << Only hand to hand. If you are using anything else, IG completely > > screws you. >> > > Hand to hand means playing your own IG deck or being a Gangrel, both > > of which work well against IG. Or, you can play viable long range > > combat. > > Does not matter. I'm not sure how many more times I have to say this. > Once you are IG'd, you *cannot play any cards* that are not hand > strikes/hand damage. IG limits your options, but it does not make you helpless. If it did, *then* maybe it would be unbalanced. > Compare IG to TB which basically does the same thing, but at the cost > of 2 blood. The only thing that TB does above and beyond IG is that > it doesn't allow you to play strike cards even if they are hand > strikes/hand damage. You say "only" as though the difference between hand strikes and any strikes is a small thing. Also, Dominate is not a combat discipline. It should cost more to use it effectively in combat than Potence. > Fortitude still effectively counters it (in that our vamp doesn't die; an argument that you seem to think has any bearing on the overall effectiveness of a card), This is true. > you can still Wolf's Claws/Bone Spur/Etc. still work when it's played, > yadda, yadda. True also. > So for what it does v. what it costs, especially when compared to > other cards with similar effect, But you're leaving out a very important thing: Thoughts Betrayed also removes much of Potence combat from play. Potence, the best combat discipline out there (opinion, yes, but a widely accepted one) is neutered by this card. With IG, you still have the option of fighting back with their own medicine. With TB, you do not. > yes, IG is overpowered (or broken, depending on your view). So, no, when compared to TB, IG is definitely not broken, overpowered, unbalanced or whatever. Powerful, yes. But no more so than a vote. Votes are just more widely used, so more people have counters. p. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <2A2I4.13354$A4.3...@c01read04.service.talkway.com>, Madman2001 <Mad...@madman.com> writes >First, it is nearly impossible to counter. Yes, the antidote to IG is >the lowly maneuver. The problem is the the antidote can be rather >easily countered itself. For example, the Brujah are usually packing >CEL, which has 4 maneuver cards (at least). Or, the tidy IG user can >always include Fake Out. Moreover, the rush cards carry their own >maneuver. In other words, maneuvers often don't help against IG. This is true of many deck types. I can puts lots of intercept into a deck to stop bleed actions, but you can just as easily put more stealth in. In almost all situations in Jyhad, the game revolves around a subtle "Activity, Counter-Activity, Counter-Counter Activity" interplay. e.g. Activity: Bleeding C-A: Block C-C-A: Stealth C-C-C-A: Intercept C-C-C-C-A: Unblockability C-C-C-C-C-A: Bleed Reduction C-C-C-C-C-C-A: Increase the bleed C-C-C-C-C-C-C-A:Bounce the bleed And so on. Now, that isn't necessarily the best route, or the most productive route, but it's a possible route. > >Second, IG almost always produces disproportional results, that is I >have seen 4-cap vampires completely burn fully-blooded 8- and 9-cap >vampires. Yes. This is intentional. Look at Wolf Claws. With it, Igo the Hungry (1 capacity) can torporise Arika (11 capacity). Again, move back to another activity in the game. Gloria Giovanni (the smallest vampire with DOM) is 4 capacity, but for an investment of 4 pool, you can make a person lose 7 pool in one simple action - Govern the Unaligned, Command (+1 bleed, no restrictions), Conditioning. Also, consider the fact that it isn't the IG /per se/ that is causing the disproportionate results, it's IG backed up with lots of other things. Again, that's true elsewhere. The reason why many people objected to RtoI was the ability to cause massive pool loss very, very quickly, without the investment in time and cards in your deck. > >Third, IG will work again nearly any combat defense deck. Many commonly used defences, perhaps. If that's the problem, though, there are many other combat defences that *will* work, in the right circumstances. Note, this may or may not be "enough" other defences, but there are other defences. Also, I know that some of these are very, very uncommon things to happen, but they are possible. Other cards are very common, though - or *could* be. This is unlike the RtoI situation where there were very few defences that could be enacted, and were often quite specific. There are many specific defences here, but also generic ones, too. Some are also very slow, but if the rush deck isn't your predator or prey, you may well have enough time to cope with that. So, a (no doubt incomplete) of things to do in combat to save your skin, or get theirs: - Elysium: The Arboretum - 1 maneuver, Terror Frenzy - Shadow Step - Quick Meld (outpaces a Brujah deck for maneuvers, no questions) - Cailean - Leather Jacket - Flak Jacket/Resplendent Protector - Mariel, Lady Thunder - Fortitude Damage Prevention - Chimerstry Damage Prevention - Living Manse - Legacy of Power - Phobia - Illusions of the Kindred - Brujah Frenzy (send an unblocked rush elsewhere, Brujah very common) - Rotschreck (can prevent the burn versus, say, pot/pro) - Thoughts Betrayed (if, say, UndStr is the problem, not Torn Signpost) - Fake Out (blocking takes the rush maneuver away, and you will draw their maneuvers) - Maneuver granters - IR Goggles, Shadow of the Beast, Patagia - Ghoul Retainer + Weapon - Undead Persistence (for "do not enter torpor" effect) - Obedience (esp. in your 3 or 4 versus an 8 or 9 situation) - Mind of a Child (prevents the use of potence, they have no stealth) - Erosion (every little helps) - Song of Serenity - Carrion Crows - Damage dealing retainers - Play Gangrel, and do something like Lucky Blow + Claws (little damage prevention available in many pot/cel decks) - Flesh of Marble - Secure Haven And so on. Don't forget that there are other ways to screw over a weenie potence/celerity deck, too. Maybe bring out a vampire *fast* and call Masquerade Enforcement, so that they have to spend more on vampires etc. And another important consideration is that you don't have to protect every single vampire you have. Sometimes, you will have to let one go. However, if you can keep that one vampire alive who will give you the bleed for the oust, or the votes for the KRC, or whatever, it can be worth just defending that one. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net http://www.zephyr.org.uk

In article <c3nI4.1062$%L6.6...@monger.newsread.com>, Sorrow <cbo...@apdi.net> writes >> << Not as effective against Cel/Pot >> >> Again--it is difficult to have enough manuvers in a Rush deck, even a >POT/cel >> deck. > >Again I contend that it is not that difficult. Indeed not. You can have lots of maneuvers in such a deck. But you have to remove something else, and risk hand jam. So, you can guarantee range, but can you do anything once you're there? (This is, of course, exactly the sort of situation I *like* in Jyhad, where the swings play off against the roundabouts.) [ quoted text not captured ]

Sorrow wrote: >>Again I contend that it is not that difficult.>> Coming from a guy who has played, pretty much exclusively, an IG Rush combat deck in tournaments for the last 4 years, I assure you that the balance between manuvers and not manuvers in a Rush deck is a very teniuous balance. Yes, you can have lots of manuvers, but then they jam your hand and you have less of the other important stuff you need when you don't need them, which is most of the time. It makes your deck less successful. There isn't enough room in a Rush deck for *many* manuvers--you really need to be playing with the bare minimum you deem necessary to be most successful. If an opponent has more than you, you will be thrown off balance, and possibly killed. >>Please tell me how a non-combat deck is going to have more reliable maneuvers than a combat deck that, for the most part, relies on the to keep things at close?>> Ok. For example, my Rush deck plays 12 Bum's Rush and 8 Behind You. In my environment, everyone is very warry of combat, so lots of manuvers as a defense isn't unusual. A deck that is prefectly viable on its own can include 12 or so Flashes, which is enough manuvers to stop the Rush deck enough to slow it down, and destabilize it. >>A deck that has 18 cards that grant maneuvers (6 of which can be used to cause damage) is seriously watering down itself.>> But it isn't getting killed by the IG deck, which is what you wanted in the first place. All defenses water down a deck. That is part of the game--that you need to weigh the cost of defense vs offense. Again, I mantain that it isn't unusual for a deck to have, say, 8 Wakes and 8 Deflections (in fact, my current DOM deck has 9 of each). This is 20% bleed defense. No one blinks twice at this sort of inclusion, and no one will complain that it waters down your deck--it is just inherrently acceptable in terms of deck design. 20% bleed defense, because you are worried about bleed decks. Why, if you are worried about Rush decks, is it then a bad idea to include 20% combat defense? >>Really? I must have missed the death clause on that card. When I read it, all it says is that (paraphrase) all but hand strikes are denied. So regardless of what kind of combat cards you have, once you are IG'd, it's effect is still occuring.>> Right. IG keeps you from using anything but hand strikes. If you don't care about anything but hand strikes (because you are either a hand to hand combat deck, or only concerned with combat defense), then the effect of the card is to allow your opponent to kill you. If you have Fortitude, you deny your opponent the ability to kill you. >>Does not matter. I'm not sure how many more times I have to say this.>> Please, please say it more. >>Once you are IG'd, you *cannot play any cards* that are not hand strikes/ hand damage.>> Thus you need to avoid being IGed if you want to play such cards. If you don't, you don't care if you are IGed. If you are using Fortitude, you don't care if you are IGed. If you are using S:CE, then you do, so you would be better off avoiding the IG in the first place. >>Compare IG to TB which basically does the same thing, but at the cost of 2 blood. The only thing that TB does above and beyond IG is that it doesn't allow you to play strike cards even if they are hand strikes/hand damage.>> Yes. The cards are roughly comparable at this point. It costs 2 blood and DOM, as it is in, essentially, a non combat discipline. >>Fortitude still effectively counters it (in that your vamp doesn't die; an argument that you seem to think has any bearing on the overall effectiveness of a card),>> It does. People keep saying IG has no counters. It has plenty--avoidance through Manuvers/Obediance/Elisium/etc or damage prevention, which stops what IG allows. IG, in and of itself, isn't going to kill anyone--if I play IG and then hit you for 1, what good is that going to do? >>you can still Wolf's Claws/Bone Spur/Etc. still work when it's played, yadda, yadda. So for what it does v. what it costs, especially when compared to other cards with similar effect, yes, IG is overpowered (or broken, depending on your view).>> I don't really see how you establish this point, but you are welcome to. TB is now a perfeclty balanced card. Compared to IG, they have very similar effects. TB costs more than IG, as TB comes from DOM, a non combat discipline (a precident set by other cards that provide out of discipline effects, like Behind You and Cat Burgulary). If TB is acceptable (with the appropriate errata), and IG has a similar effect for a comparable cost (taking the discipline factor into acount), then ergo, IG is a balanced card. [ quoted text not captured ]

myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > And Swallowed by Night is just a very useful card, which grants > stealth to not get caught, or the maneuver to not get caught even > after you're caught. A fantastic multi-use card for any stealth > action deck. Throw it in for your stealth, and you also get to > use it for the maneuver in combat. Yep. I make liberal use of Swallowed by the Night and Form of the Serpent in my Setite stealth vote deck. Both give maneuvers at superior. I count on those maneuvers to back up my S:CE cards when I'm facing an IG deck. > But you're leaving out a very important thing: Thoughts Betrayed > also removes much of Potence combat from play. Potence, the best > combat discipline out there (opinion, yes, but a widely accepted > one) is neutered by this card. With IG, you still have the option > of fighting back with their own medicine. With TB, you do not. Depends on how you set it up. TB only prevents the use of strike cards. I have an Anethema/IG/Trap deck that doesn't use any strike cards at all. It uses pre-range cards to set hand damage to unholy levels. > So, no, when compared to TB, IG is definitely not broken, > overpowered, unbalanced or whatever. Powerful, yes. But > no more so than a vote. Votes are just more widely used, > so more people have counters. TB costs 2 blood and requires DOM. Big cost for a big effect. IG is free and requires pot to work. Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction are better to compare IG to. They prevent _all_ strikes during the first round, instead of limit to hand strikes for a round, and all three give a press at superior. Hidden Lurker can be a bit tough to pull off after your targets stop blocking you. Fast Reaction, is easier to pull off, esp. if you're using Eagle Sight to make sure you can block your prey. *ponders* If the Tremere had a good first round strike, they'd be deadly. Tzimisce, OTOH... *light bulb* Noal -- "What you cannot enforce, do not command." -- Socrates [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8cvb4o$lsm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dharzhak@my- deja.com> writes >*ponders* If the Tremere had a good first round strike, they'd >be deadly. We call it Shotgun Ritual. :) (Nice idea, by the way.) > Tzimisce, OTOH... *light bulb* Breath of the Dragon! R0ar! [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > > But you're leaving out a very important thing: Thoughts Betrayed > > also removes much of Potence combat from play. Potence, the best > > combat discipline out there (opinion, yes, but a widely accepted > > one) is neutered by this card. With IG, you still have the option > > of fighting back with their own medicine. With TB, you do not. > > Depends on how you set it up. TB only prevents the use of strike > cards. > I have an Anethema/IG/Trap deck that doesn't use any strike cards at > all. It uses pre-range cards to set hand damage to unholy levels. I agree, but what I was pointing out (trying to, heh) is that with IG, both minions are limited. With TB, only the target is limited. With IG, whatever they can do to you, you also have the capability to do right back to them With TB, they can do anything they want to you, while you can play no strikes at all. If you IG a Potence deck, they're going to thank you for saving them the trouble of playing their own. You play TB on an IG deck, and they're more than likely screwed. Well, in my group they would be. I don't usually see TB as a defense in my group, but more for offense. So if you get hit with one, there's likely to be something nasty coming up behind it. Lasombra... geh. p. > > > So, no, when compared to TB, IG is definitely not broken, > > overpowered, unbalanced or whatever. Powerful, yes. But > > no more so than a vote. Votes are just more widely used, > > so more people have counters. > > TB costs 2 blood and requires DOM. Big cost for a big effect. > > IG is free and requires pot to work. Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction > are better to compare IG to. They prevent _all_ strikes during the > first round, instead of limit to hand strikes for a round, and all three > give a press at superior. Hidden Lurker can be a bit tough to pull off > after your targets stop blocking you. Fast Reaction, is easier to pull > off, esp. if you're using Eagle Sight to make sure you can block your > prey. *ponders* If the Tremere had a good first round strike, they'd > be deadly. Tzimisce, OTOH... *light bulb* > > Noal > -- > "What you cannot enforce, do not command." > -- Socrates > [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: > > But you're leaving out a very important thing: Thoughts Betrayed > > also removes much of Potence combat from play. Potence, the best > > combat discipline out there (opinion, yes, but a widely accepted > > one) is neutered by this card. With IG, you still have the option > > of fighting back with their own medicine. With TB, you do not. > > Depends on how you set it up. TB only prevents the use of strike > cards. > I have an Anethema/IG/Trap deck that doesn't use any strike cards at > all. It uses pre-range cards to set hand damage to unholy levels. I agree, but what I was pointing out (trying to, heh) is that with IG, both minions are limited. With TB, only the target is limited. With IG, whatever they can do to you, you also have the capability to do right back to them With TB, they can do anything they want to you, while you can play no strikes at all. If you IG a Potence deck, they're going to thank you for saving them the trouble of playing their own. You play TB on an IG deck, and they're more than likely screwed. Well, in my group they would be. I don't usually see TB as a defense in my group, but more for offense. So if you get hit with one, there's likely to be something nasty coming up behind it. Lasombra... geh. > Tzimisce, OTOH... *light bulb* Good luck. Yay Fiends! [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8cvb4o$lsm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > myrm...@my-deja.com wrote: >> So, no, when compared to TB, IG is definitely not broken, >> overpowered, unbalanced or whatever. Powerful, yes. But >> no more so than a vote. Votes are just more widely used, >> so more people have counters. > >TB costs 2 blood and requires DOM. Big cost for a big effect. The 2 blood cost tends to be irrelevent, as the Tremere will regain it somehow. TB's main problem is that requires you to have superior in a discipline that doesn't kick ass in combat by itself. Consequently you need to have considerably larger vampires, where POT can make due with Hesina Kesi. Personally, I don't think of IG as broken, but it would certainly be nice if there was a little more variety in combat, without neutering combat based decks. >IG is free and requires pot to work. Hidden Lurker and Fast Reaction >are better to compare IG to. They prevent _all_ strikes during the >first round, instead of limit to hand strikes for a round, and all three >give a press at superior. Hidden Lurker can be a bit tough to pull off >after your targets stop blocking you. Fast Reaction, is easier to pull >off, esp. if you're using Eagle Sight to make sure you can block your >prey. *ponders* If the Tremere had a good first round strike, they'd >be deadly. Tzimisce, OTOH... *light bulb* Works fairly well, although still suffers from the general trouble that intercept decks have. Eagle's Sight helps, but when I tried it, I ended up with too many moving parts to be truly effective. -Jasper

>> Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> writes >> *ponders* If the Tremere had a good first round strike, >> they'd be deadly. > James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote: > We call it Shotgun Ritual. :) True. But I don't like to spend that much blood if I can avoid it. >> Tzimisce, OTOH... *light bulb* > Breath of the Dragon! R0ar! The advantage of the Tremere is that they can use Obedience. Although, upon consideration, I'm not certain that one can use Fast Reaction after Obedience. While no official clarifications have been stated, the text on the two cards seems so imply that you cannot: "Instead of entering combat, this vampire remains untapped;" "Only usable after a blocking minion you control other than this vampire has just completed combat." Add to that, pool management is much harder with the Tzimisce than the Tremere. With Dominate, you can use GtU and Scouting Mission to generate pool during your influence phase, not to mention they make good bleed cards. Hrm. I haven't made a Tremere deck in a while and an effective interecept deck is always a challenge. I'll have to see what I come up with. Oh, and once it's been tested, I'll post my (mostly) Gangrel "On the Seventh Day of Christmas, My True Love Sent to Me Seven Raptors" deck. It's based on that idea that Xian and I were working on a while back to pile seven Raptors on a vampire to make people discard their entire hand during combat. I realized how evil that would be with Form of Mist and blocked combat...which will make you do it not once, but twice! Of course, the deck packs Bone Spur so you Bums Rush the best vampires, making him want to block. I'll have to see how the deck matches up against the expected behavior of other players. Noal -- "What you cannot enforce, do not command." -- Socrates [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > Oh, and once it's been tested, I'll post my (mostly) Gangrel "On the > Seventh Day of Christmas, My True Love Sent to Me Seven Raptors" deck. > > It's based on that idea that Xian and I were working on a while back > to pile seven Raptors on a vampire to make people discard their entire > hand during combat. I realized how evil that would be with Form of > Mist and blocked combat...which will make you do it not once, but > twice! Of course, the deck packs Bone Spur so you Bums Rush the best > vampires, making him want to block. I'll have to see how the deck > matches up against the expected behavior of other players. I had a similar deck a while back using the same idea and Wynn (big, yes, but I can use fewer Bum's Rushes with him in). With the Rack and a Homunculus on him, I could get some Powerbases out, plus a Smiling Jack if I happened to get it. Then I could just block and untap all day long when they came at me, then go after them when my turn came around. I'd be in trouble if he was contested, but that's true for whichever vampire you have all the Raptors on, and I don't see Wynn that often. I had to use proxy cards in place of the Raptors, as I only had 3. You might be amazed at how quickly a playgroup can come together and ban proxies for the group. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8d0381$f4g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dharzhak@my- deja.com> writes >> James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> We call it Shotgun Ritual. :) > >True. But I don't like to spend that much blood if I can avoid it. Ah, yes.... But now you could play that Cauldron of Blood. 5 damage. Slurp with Taste of Vitae. (And using THA/aus, though THA/AUS would be preferable if you plan to use Eagle Sight, of course.) [ quoted text not captured ]

Non only the fact that manouvers counter IG, think about this: I've been playing this IG Rush deck for a while, and someone actually made good use of it. Say I Rush, TS, IG, US him...nothing wrong so far. But then he played Superior Mettle which is *the* cards against IG at superior, hit me for 2, I can't play ToV, and I got my fangs pulled. So with that completely shutting me down as I couldn't take hunt actions, did not have enough blood on my vamps and basically got creamed by a Ventrue deck...... IG is a good card, but first of all isn't all that usefull alone, while say any Political action is, secondly the fact that you HAVE to focus your deck around it leaves you totally unprotected against bleed decks, votes and such. The only thing you can do is fight, that's it. People even tend to team up to remove the treat, and then resume the game.... Tim In article <20000410205904...@ng-bg1.aol.com>, [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald wrote: > The advantage of the Tremere is that they can use Obedience. Although, > upon consideration, I'm not certain that one can use Fast Reaction after > Obedience. While no official clarifications have been stated, the text > on the two cards seems so imply that you cannot: > > "Instead of entering combat, this vampire remains untapped;" > > "Only usable after a blocking minion you control other than this vampire > has just completed combat." Correct analysis. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep

In article <8cvmn0$1st$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, myrm...@my-deja.com writes >You play TB on an IG deck, and they're more than likely screwed. Well, >in my group they would be. It all depends on how you play them. If the deck would revolve around, as one of mine would, Increased Strength and Undead Strength, yes, they would be. However, were I to have access to the cards needed, you can play Torn Signpost and Fists of Death - 5 damage on a POT vampire - neither of which are strike cards. Follow up with Disarm and Decapitate as necessary. Similar things happen with several combat styles: - cel/pot can play Torn Signpost, Fists of Death, Taste of Vitae and Blur, and still IG you - obf/pot can play similar to above, though it might struggle to deal as much damage - ani/for can play DotB and Skin of Steel, getting you at the end of the round - tha/for has the Weather Control/Dawn Op combo to try out for size - ani/pro can always attempt to use Carrion Crows and Claws. Your TB will knock out the Scorpion Sting, however, but then you need to be playing celerity to really capitalise on dodges and blurs - weapon/cel never plays strike cards - ammo cards and blurs are still playable, and if you want Obf/Cel, play Disguised Weapon too - +HD/cel (opt) can have increased hand damage to start with (either from vampires innate ability, or library cards) and then blur And so on. These are all ways decks *can* be played if they view TB as a threat - more annoying and difficult to play, perhaps, but playable. TB is still a good card - it can, as you say, nullify some decks - but it's no longer quite so powerful. The major people who would, IMO, have more of a problem getting around TB are the Assamites, unfortunately. [ quoted text not captured ]

t_e...@my-deja.com wrote: > IG is a good card, but first of all isn't all that usefull > alone, while say any Political action is, secondly the fact > that you HAVE to focus your deck around it leaves you totally > unprotected against bleed decks, votes and such. The only > thing you can do is fight, that's it. Huh? Where did you get that idea? Political combat decks have always been a fairly competitive strategy. I've got a Brujah Anethema/IG deck that does a decent job of controlling the votes and the combat. I'm not certain it would do well on tables of more than 5, but that holds true for a lot of decks. The politics side of it is very simple. Half of the PA cards are to gain titles, the others are all Anethema and Archon votes. Throw in a healthy amount of Bewitching Oration, Awe (I think) and Voter Cap for blood and pool gain. The rest is all combat. One of these days, I'll get around to posting it. Noal -- "What you cannot enforce, do not command." -- Socrates [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8d18au$oo7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, t_e...@my-deja.com writes >secondly the fact that you HAVE to focus >your deck around it leaves you totally unprotected against bleed decks, >votes and such. For some values of "unprotected". A pro-active rush will kill them dead. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <k$WqX8Gbd...@obeah.demon.co.uk>, James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote: > In article <8d0381$f4g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dharzhak@my- > deja.com> writes > >> James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >> We call it Shotgun Ritual. :) > > > >True. But I don't like to spend that much blood if I can avoid it. > > Ah, yes.... But now you could play that Cauldron of Blood. 5 damage. > Slurp with Taste of Vitae. (And using THA/aus, though THA/AUS would be > preferable if you plan to use Eagle Sight, of course.) This 1st round cauldron of blood still does not beat S:CE unless you play thoughts betrayed which ups the cost another 2 blood Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8d18au$oo7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, t_e...@my-deja.com wrote: > Non only the fact that manouvers counter IG, think about this: I've been > playing this IG Rush deck for a while, and someone actually made good > use of it. Say I Rush, TS, IG, US him...nothing wrong so far. But then > he played Superior Mettle which is *the* cards against IG at superior, > hit me for 2, I can't play ToV, and I got my fangs pulled. So with that > completely shutting me down as I couldn't take hunt actions, did not > have enough blood on my vamps and basically got creamed by a Ventrue > deck...... > IG is a good card, but first of all isn't all that usefull alone, while > say any Political action is, secondly the fact that you HAVE to focus > your deck around it leaves you totally unprotected against bleed decks, > votes and such. The only thing you can do is fight, that's it. > People even tend to team up to remove the treat, and then resume the > game.... > I concur with this point. When rush combat occupies the same table as politics. The political decks will often combine their might to destroy the rush combat threat. I saw this most poingnantly at Praxis Seizure:Dallas that was held at A-Kon. 3 political decks combined their might to kill two rush decks. It wouldn't have been so unusual except that the rush decks were sitting beside each other the whole tournament. Comments Welcome Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > This 1st round cauldron of blood still does not beat S:CE > unless you play thoughts betrayed which ups the cost another > 2 blood The discussion was regarding combat using Fast Reaction which beats S:CE just fine. Noal -- "What you cannot enforce, do not command." -- Socrates [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8d2f9d$4hl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > This 1st round cauldron of blood still does not beat S:CE > > unless you play thoughts betrayed which ups the cost another > > 2 blood > > The discussion was regarding combat using Fast Reaction which beats S:CE > just fine. You have to forgive me not following the gist of the arguement. Deja.com only lets me pick out searches. I am having trouble pulling stable threads. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8d2rc7$hu9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes >You have to forgive me not following the gist of the arguement. Deja.com >only lets me pick out searches. I am having trouble pulling stable >threads. Use MyDeja. [ quoted text not captured ]

Following up with an expansion of my own idea, I know..... In article <k$WqX8Gbd...@obeah.demon.co.uk>, James Coupe <ve...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes >Ah, yes.... But now you could play that Cauldron of Blood. 5 damage. >Slurp with Taste of Vitae. (And using THA/aus, though THA/AUS would be >preferable if you plan to use Eagle Sight, of course.) Hmm.... a couple of AUS weenies to get you the intercept to start with (and Eagle's Sight). Zoe would work well, with AUS obf cel. Isabel de Leon with AUS (and no hunting restriction). Dorian Strack with AUS cel. Richard Tauber with AUS tha. Then play with Mages on Speed. Use aus (inferior is all that's needed, unless you come up against a lot of damage prevention and want to press) to Fast Reaction. A few Thefts probably wouldn't go amiss, especially if you're short on Taste. Shotgun Ritual allows you to get to the "nice" strikes - Cauldron of Blood and Walk of Flame are still by far the best second round Thaumaturgy strikes, for my money. And use cel to capitalise on it with a blur (or other form of additional strikes). You have a few nice vampires at your disposal for this: Ian Forestal has AUS THA cel (effectively) Thomas Thorne has aus cel tha (but he's smaller than most) Al Ashrad has THA CEL aus (a superb arrangement for this) Parnassus has CEL aus tha (and with CEL, he can do multiple smaller tha strikes) Javier Montoya has THA AUS cel (and if you plan to use Fame in such a deck, his rescue ability might be wanted) Klaus van der Veken has CEL aus tha (as Parnassus, and 2 votes) Ethan Locke has THA aus cel (2 votes, too) There are other vampires with all three disciplines (e.g. Gwendolyn, Lucian) but these are the ones who initially make me think "Could be useful". Obviously, if you're using bigger vampires for the kill, you'll need a couple of Wakes (of whatever form) such that you can use each vampire multiple times during the same turn, or have them take actions during your minion phase. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8d2b07$v4d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes >It wouldn't have been so unusual except that the rush decks were sitting >beside each other the whole tournament. Then something went wrong. In three rounds, this shouldn't happen - since the predator/prey dynamic would have to be repeated, which is in breach of tournament rules. (Excepting the possibility that you mean that one of them quickly ousted its prey, such that they ended up effectively next to each other from the off.) [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8d1tv8$fna$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dharzhak@my- deja.com> writes <Bruise and vote decks - political section snipped> >The rest is all combat. I was thinking of doing something along these lines - though I was actually thinking of using David Tatu's nice idea of Nosferatu, since that gives Forgotten Labyrinth for votes, rushes, diablerie and horse abuse - using the horse abuse with a minion tap to generate pool to bring out multiple vampires and votes. (The last time I thought about doing it, I couldn't find my Immortal Grapples, which were sitting on top of my stereo.) The fact that a little stealth can assure me of a successful rush means that I have less to worry about with my lack of "Behind You"s for maneuvers, and I can always use Swallowed. However, I'm always stumped when it comes to combat. I never know just what to include, when I'm including so comparatively little. From what I recall of David's deck, he didn't seem to have *that* many Immortal Grapples - perhaps four or five. At least, that's how it seemed anyway. I guess you just have to carefully target your Anathemas, so that they can't get you. Did anyone ever get a copy of that deck? Of course, in such a deck, using the Banishment/Memory's Fading Glimpse trick would always be a nasty one to try and include. [ quoted text not captured ]