Untap phase: ref Army of Rats and Judgement Camarilla Segretation

Got a question: Both players are on 1 pool. Player 1 has Army of Rats in play. Player 2 has Judgement Camarilla Segretation in play. It is player 1's untap phase and he controls a Sabbat vampire. They are the only players. Are they ousted at the same time or what?

[ quoted text not captured ] The active Methuselah can choose to order his untap phase effects however he wants. So he can just choose to trigger the rats first, therefore ousting his prey.

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message news:<7Hzla.445489$sf5.7...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] can i please have a rulebook reference or a LSJ answer to this, as (as far as i am aware) Untap effects all happen at the same time. Otherwise, you could use Ezmerelda and a Baltimore purge to some really bad advantages, i.e. Burn Ezmerelda & then the Baltimore Purge (in that order). or (imho) Ezmerelda should not be able to be burnt during your Untap phase for her pool gain because the Baltimore purge should send her to torpor at the same time she is trying to burn herself.

Brian Skelly wrote: >>The active Methuselah can choose to order his untap phase effects however >>he wants. >>So he can just choose to trigger the rats first, therefore ousting his prey. > > > can i please have a rulebook reference or a LSJ answer to this, as (as > far as i am aware) Untap effects all happen at the same time. Rulebook section 4, Untap Phase. Moreover, the ony effects that occur simultaneously are strike effects (your strike happens simultaneously with your opponent's). > Otherwise, you could use Ezmerelda and a Baltimore purge to some > really bad advantages, i.e. Burn Ezmerelda & then the Baltimore Purge > (in that order). or (imho) Ezmerelda should not be able to be burnt You can. Note that if the BP was *on* Ezmerelda, it would be burned when she was and so would not be abel to be activate later in that untap. > during your Untap phase for her pool gain because the Baltimore purge > should send her to torpor at the same time she is trying to burn > herself. No. Either BP sends her to torpor and then, since she isn't ready, she cannot activate her special or she activates hr torpor, burning herself and all cards, including the BP, on her, and then the BP is no longer in play so cannot be activated. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Brian Skelly <dagr...@iprimus.com.au> wrote: > Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message > news:<7Hzla.445489$sf5.7...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>... >> Brian Skelly <dagr...@iprimus.com.au> wrote: >> > Got a question: >> >> > Both players are on 1 pool. Player 1 has Army of Rats in play. >> > Player 2 has Judgement Camarilla Segretation in play. It is player >> > 1's untap >> > phase and he controls a Sabbat vampire. They are the only players. >> > Are >> > they ousted at the same time or what? >> >> The active Methuselah can choose to order his untap phase effects >> however >> he wants. >> So he can just choose to trigger the rats first, therefore ousting >> his prey. > > can i please have a rulebook reference or a LSJ answer to this, as (as > far as i am aware) Untap effects all happen at the same time. From the rulebook: [4.] Untap phase. You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards. Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your cards. ***You may choose the order in which these effects take place.*** > Otherwise, you could use Ezmerelda and a Baltimore purge to some > really bad advantages, i.e. Burn Ezmerelda & then the Baltimore Purge > (in that order). No. If you burn Ezmerelda *first*, you also burn the Baltimore Purge (which was on her), sending both cards to the ash heap. You now have no "Baltimore Purge" untap effect, since the Baltimore Purge is in the ash heap. > or (imho) Ezmerelda should not be able to be burnt > during your Untap phase for her pool gain because the Baltimore purge > should send her to torpor at the same time she is trying to burn > herself. Moot. ;) Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

> can i please have a rulebook reference or a LSJ answer to this, as (as > far as i am aware) Untap effects all happen at the same time. Sure: "4. Untap Phase You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards. Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your cards. You may choose the order in which these effects take place." > Otherwise, you could use Ezmerelda and a Baltimore purge to some > really bad advantages, i.e. Burn Ezmerelda & then the Baltimore Purge > (in that order). or (imho) Ezmerelda should not be able to be burnt > during your Untap phase for her pool gain because the Baltimore purge > should send her to torpor at the same time she is trying to burn > herself. Nope, that wouldn't work - if you burn Ezmerelda first, that would also burn the Baltimore Purge before it went off (it is a minion card on that minion, so by default goes to the ash heap when the minion burns). - Rafe

On 14 Apr 2003, Rafe wrote: > > Otherwise, you could use Ezmerelda and a Baltimore purge to some > > really bad advantages, i.e. Burn Ezmerelda & then the Baltimore Purge > > (in that order). or (imho) Ezmerelda should not be able to be burnt > > during your Untap phase for her pool gain because the Baltimore purge > > should send her to torpor at the same time she is trying to burn > > herself. > > Nope, that wouldn't work - if you burn Ezmerelda first, that would > also burn the Baltimore Purge before it went off (it is a minion card > on that minion, so by default goes to the ash heap when the minion > burns). Note that Esmerelda's special doesn't burn her. It removes her from the game. Also, with the [for] level of Renewed Vigor, you could still do something like this. ->untap->purge->burn Renewed Vigor->use Ezmerelda's special. That doesn't strike me as being such a spectacular combo, really. Wouldn't you rather just Purge again or bleed or whatever unless you really needed the 11 pool? -Matt

dagr...@iprimus.com.au (Brian Skelly) wrote in message news:<c1fa45c1.0304...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Actually it's not as broken as you think BECAUSE you order the effects. If you Purge first, Ezmerelda goes to torpor (assuming she's the one who Purged) and can't use her special. If she uses her special, the Purge goes away before it goes off (because it's a card ON the acting vampire). If things happened "simultaneously" then one might be able to argue that both of these effects can happen at once (because Ezmerelda's special doesn't say she can't use it if she's GOING to torpor, only that she can't use it if she's already there). Ordering is necessary to clear up confusion, and the rest is handled by the cards themselves being balanced.

dagr...@iprimus.com.au (Brian Skelly) wrote in message news:<c1fa45c1.0304...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] From the rulebook: 4. Untap Phase You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards. Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your cards. You may choose the order in which these effects take place. So yes, Ezmerelda can in fact be burned before she goes to torpor from her Baltimore Purge. -John Flournoy

flou...@rcn.com (John Flournoy) wrote in message news:<57327a82.03041...@posting.google.com>... > dagr...@iprimus.com.au (Brian Skelly) wrote in message news:<c1fa45c1.0304...@posting.google.com>... > > Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message news:<7Hzla.445489$sf5.7...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>... > > > Brian Skelly <dagr...@iprimus.com.au> wrote: > > > > Got a question: > > > > can i please have a rulebook reference or a LSJ answer to this, as (as > > far as i am aware) Untap effects all happen at the same time. > > Otherwise, you could use Ezmerelda and a Baltimore purge to some > > really bad advantages, i.e. Burn Ezmerelda & then the Baltimore Purge > > (in that order). or (imho) Ezmerelda should not be able to be burnt > > during your Untap phase for her pool gain because the Baltimore purge > > should send her to torpor at the same time she is trying to burn > > herself. > > From the rulebook: > > 4. Untap Phase > You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your > untap phase, you must untap all of your cards. Any cards or effects > that require or allow you to do something during your untap phase take > effect after you have untapped your cards. You may choose the order in > which these effects take place. > > So yes, Ezmerelda can in fact be burned before she goes to torpor from > her Baltimore Purge. > > -John Flournoy And as noted by other people, when she burns, her BP burns with her. -John