Rulings Question - Form of Mist - Long Post

Ok, I know this is an issue that has probably been debated here before, but I'm going to plead ignorance on account of not being a regular reader of this group..... I don't understand the logic behind the way this card is apparently interpreted to work these days. I've read everything I can find about it on the white wolf site, and I've talked with people here locally about their interpretations, and I think I accurately understand the way the card has been ruled to work. What I'm asking here is: 1)Is my understanding of the ruling correct? (Which I sincerely hope I'm not) And if so, 2) Why in the hell did they do this, and do they recognize that they have created a paradoxical ruling, that technically goes beyond the rules of the game, and which renders the card not merely very restricted in its utility, but literally impossible to legally play (at superior by the acting minion) under any circumstance. Anyway, here goes: One of the "clarifications" that is posted on the white wolf web site at http://www.white-wolf.com/, on the page titled "V: TES Official Clarifications, Rulings, and Errata" most recently updated July 25, 2001; reads as follows: "The superior form cannot be used by the acting vampire unless he needs the stealth. [RTR 19970630] " I had initially assumed that this simply meant that I can't play Form of Mist if my stealth was already greater than the intercept of the minion who blocked the previous action (which would bring up the interesting question of how he blocked me if my stealth was greater than his intercept, but never mind that). This assumption seems to me to be SUPPORTED by the text of the Rules Team Ruling, to which this statement is linked, which reads: "10) You may play cards and abilities that provide stealth only if any minions have attempted to block the current action, but not if the acting minion's stealth exceeds all of those minions' intercept." One or more minions did attempt to block the current action, successfully I might add, and my stealth (apparently) does not exceed the intercept of those (that is, the ones who blocked) minions. However, my assumption is apparently not correct, based on what I've read other places, although there is no actual explanation of why. As the card is now written, when played at superior by the acting minion, it counts as an action modifier, AS WELL AS a combat card. The apparent logic of this decision is to prevent people from playing multiple copies of the card on the same action. This is fine in my opinion. It toned down a card that was probably a bit too powerful. However, if this is all that was desired, this could have been better accomplished by simply errating the card to read "No more than one Form of Mist can be played on the same action." This would not have crippled the card, or as I will argue, made it literally impossible to use at superior by the acting minion. Now then. It is ruled that you cannot play the card (at superior) if you don't actually need the stealth that it provides. This is considered analogous to not being able to play Lost in Crowds until you need the stealth. This may be a valid analogy, depending on what they meant. The application of this is apparently that I can play my superior Form of Mist only if there is an untapped (or a waked I guess) minion on the table who currently has intercept equal to the amount of stealth I had on my previous, already blocked, attempt at the action. Thus I need one more stealth to get past the potential blocker, so I can play Form of Mist to get past this. However, this is very specifically an incorrect interpretation of the rules, as posted on the white wolf web site. Here is why. The rules do NOT state that you cannot play additional stealth on an action unless there is a ready untapped minion on the table who currently has intercept equal to your stealth. The rules state you cannot play additional stealth until you are actually being blocked! For example, if I want to bleed you with a vampire, and I naturally have zero stealth, and you have an untapped blocker with zero or greater intercept, that does NOT allow me to throw stealth on the action when I announce it. Likewise, if I am bleeding you with a vampire who has inherent +1 stealth, and you have an untapped blocker with a sport bike, that again does NOT allow me to throw stealth on the action when I announce it. I must attempt to bleed, then after you try to block, then I can play my stealth to get past your blocker. The rule in the rulebook upon which this analogy is based is in rule 6.2.2, second section, "Stealth and Intercept". It reads: Stealth can be added to an action only when needed (that is, only if the action is currently being blocked and the blocking minion has enough intercept to block the acting minion). Clearly, at the moment when you play superior Form of Mist, you do not need additional stealth yet, because no block (of the continuation of your action) has yet been declared. But then again, before you play the card, there was no new action to BE blocked, and thus there could not have been any attempt to block and thus no stealth needed. This creates a paradoxical situation: Player A cannot play Form of Mist because Player B has not yet tried to block. Player B cannot yet try to block, because there is not yet any action to be blocked. No action yet exists to blocked, because Player A has not yet played Form of Mist. Player A cannot play Form of Mist because Player B has not yet tried to block. Repeat ad infinitum. Ok, so clearly we can't reasonably rule the card to work in the way described above, because it is absurd. Lets fall back on the text of the card itself. What does the superior version of the card say, as errata-ed on the white wolf site? "[PRO] Strike: combat ends. {When played by an acting vampire, this card counts as an action modifier and the action continues} at +1 stealth as if unblocked (this action can still be blocked)." What the card says is essentially: "Combat is over. Pretend nobody blocked you, and add an additional stealth to your action." Now normally, this is specifically not allowed. As we have already discussed, section 6.2.2 reads: Stealth can be added to an action only when needed (that is, only if the action is currently being blocked and the blocking minion has enough intercept to block the acting minion). If we are pretending you weren't blocked, then under this rule you may not add stealth to the action. If we abide by rule 6.2.2 then superior Form of Mist simply may not be played at all. Fortunately we can fall back on the rule 1.4. 1.4. The Golden Rule for Cards Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence. Clearly this rule tells us to disregard the violation of the rules that is - and in fact has always been - inherent to Form of Mist. Under this interpretation, the stacking limit of one Form of Mist per action stays in place, because we are considering it an action modifier. However, the card is still playable as it was clearly intended to be. To rule on Form of Mist the way that they apparently did, is to create an new set of rules regarding Stealth and Intercept that are specific Form of Mist, and totally different than the way they are applied in the rest of the game, and which are contradictory both to the rules of the game, and to any sense of logic. Anyway, if anyone has any response to this, feel free. Maybe someone in a position of authority wants to point out the flaw in my argument, but I'm pretty sure there isn't one. What I really hope though is that I've simply misunderstood the way this card has been ruled to work, and we're already in agreement. Thanks, Matt Shields

[ quoted text not captured ] It seems right so far. > As the card is now written, when played at superior by the acting > minion, it counts as an action modifier, AS WELL AS a combat card. The > apparent logic of this decision is to prevent people from playing > multiple copies of the card on the same action. And because it modifies the action (adding stealth). > This is fine in my opinion. It toned down a card that was probably a > bit too powerful. However, if this is all that was desired, this could > have been better accomplished by simply errating the card to read "No > more than one Form of Mist can be played on the same action." This > would not have crippled the card, or as I will argue, made it > literally impossible to use at superior by the acting minion. > > Now then. It is ruled that you cannot play the card (at superior) if > you don't actually need the stealth that it provides. This is > considered analogous to not being able to play Lost in Crowds until > you need the stealth. This may be a valid analogy, depending on what > they meant. > > The application of this is apparently that I can play my superior Form > of Mist only if there is an untapped (or a waked I guess) minion on > the table who currently has intercept equal to the amount of stealth I > had on my previous, already blocked, attempt at the action. Thus I > need one more stealth to get past the potential blocker, so I can play > Form of Mist to get past this. No. If there is a /blocking/ minion with intercept >= your stealth. > However, this is very specifically an incorrect interpretation of the > rules, as posted on the white wolf web site. Here is why. The rules do > NOT state that you cannot play additional stealth on an action unless > there is a ready untapped minion on the table who currently has > intercept equal to your stealth. The rules state you cannot play > additional stealth until you are actually being blocked! Right - it is not correct. [snip] > Ok, so clearly we can't reasonably rule the card to work in the way > described above, because it is absurd. Lets fall back on the text of > the card itself. What does the superior version of the card say, as > errata-ed on the white wolf site? > > "[PRO] Strike: combat ends. {When played by an acting vampire, this > card counts as an action modifier and the action continues} at +1 > stealth as if unblocked (this action can still be blocked)." > > What the card says is essentially: "Combat is over. Pretend nobody > blocked you, and add an additional stealth to your action." Now > normally, this is specifically not allowed. As we have already > discussed, section 6.2.2 reads: The opponent must be a blocking minion and must have intercept equal to or greater than your current stealth. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"TwitchBot" <mchir...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:ecf58b2e.01080...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Here is where your misunderstanding is. When FoM is played you are being blocked, by the minion you are in combat with, therefore, except in a small set of corner cases, you need the stealth and can play the card. > > For example, if I want to bleed you with a vampire, and I naturally > have zero stealth, and you have an untapped blocker with zero or > greater intercept, that does NOT allow me to throw stealth on the > action when I announce it. Likewise, if I am bleeding you with a > vampire who has inherent +1 stealth, and you have an untapped blocker > with a sport bike, that again does NOT allow me to throw stealth on > the action when I announce it. I must attempt to bleed, then after you > try to block, then I can play my stealth to get past your blocker. > > The rule in the rulebook upon which this analogy is based is in rule > 6.2.2, second section, "Stealth and Intercept". It reads: > Stealth can be added to an action only when needed (that is, only if > the action is currently being blocked and the blocking minion has > enough intercept to block the acting minion). > > Clearly, at the moment when you play superior Form of Mist, you do not > need additional stealth yet, because no block (of the continuation of > your action) has yet been declared. But then again, before you play > the card, there was no new action to BE blocked, and thus there could > not have been any attempt to block and thus no stealth needed. Remember it is the same action as was already blocked not a new action. [ quoted text not captured ] Ken Shaw

mchir...@netscape.net (TwitchBot) wrote in message news:<ecf58b2e.01080...@posting.google.com>... > Clearly, at the moment when you play superior Form of Mist, you do not > need additional stealth yet, because no block (of the continuation of > your action) has yet been declared. But then again, before you play > the card, there was no new action to BE blocked, and thus there could > not have been any attempt to block and thus no stealth needed. This is where you got confused, I think. When you play superior Form of Mist as an acting vampire, you are currently being blocked. The combat you're in is part of the action (if it weren't, there'd be no action to continue). So you do have a blocking minion with intercept (almost always) equal to or greater than your current stealth. That's why you play Cat's Guidance after combat: the block isn't over until the combat is over. "If the action is blocked, then any card played to take the action is burned, and the blocking minion is tapped and enters combat with the acting minion (see Combat, sec. 6.4). Once the combat is resolved, the action is over." [rulebook, 6.2.3] Josh 'is there anybody going to listen to my story all about the girl who came to stay?'

In article <ecf58b2e.01080...@posting.google.com>, TwitchBot <mchir...@netscape.net> wrote: >However, this is very specifically an incorrect interpretation of the >rules, as posted on the white wolf web site. Here is why. The rules do >NOT state that you cannot play additional stealth on an action unless >there is a ready untapped minion on the table who currently has >intercept equal to your stealth. The rules state you cannot play >additional stealth until you are actually being blocked! You _are_ being blocked, though. By the minion you're fighting. The problem seems to stem from your understanding of the block and combat as separate things. They're not. To wit: Cat's Guidance, which is played after the combat (but the vampire is still blocking), and Freak Drive (superior), played after the combat resulting from the block (but the vampire is still acting). Since there is a blocking minion (the one you're fighting) with intercept equal to your stealth (or the block wouldn't have succeeded), it is legal to add stealth (via Form of Mist superior, if one hasn't been played on the action previously). >The rule in the rulebook upon which this analogy is based is in rule >6.2.2, second section, "Stealth and Intercept". It reads: >Stealth can be added to an action only when needed (that is, only if >the action is currently being blocked and the blocking minion has >enough intercept to block the acting minion). All these conditions apply when your acting minion is blocked and wants to play superior Form of Mist. The relevant blocking minion with sufficient intercept is the opposing minion in combat (barring tricky bits we won't go into here). >Clearly, at the moment when you play superior Form of Mist, you do not >need additional stealth yet, because no block (of the continuation of >your action) has yet been declared. There is no need, or indeed ability, to declare a block attempt in addition to the one currently in progress (at the combat stage of blocking). >Player A cannot play Form of Mist because Player B has not yet tried >to block. Player B has successfully blocked and is in the middle of resolving that block. >Player B cannot yet try to block, because there is not yet any action >to be blocked. The action is still in progress while the combat resulting from the block is ongoing. >No action yet exists to blocked, because Player A has not yet played >Form of Mist. As above. >Player A cannot play Form of Mist because Player B has not yet tried >to block. He sure can. >"[PRO] Strike: combat ends. {When played by an acting vampire, this >card counts as an action modifier and the action continues} at +1 >stealth as if unblocked (this action can still be blocked)." Since it says the action _continues_, it is reasonable to infer that the action never ended -- that is to say, Form of Mist doesn't create a new action. It's more like moving a backgrounded process to the fore- ground than it is like fork-and-exec'ing a new process, to use the geekspeak. >Stealth can be added to an action only when needed (that is, only if >the action is currently being blocked and the blocking minion has >enough intercept to block the acting minion). These conditions apply. The action is currently being blocked (stipulated), and the blocking minion has enough intercept to block the acting minion (or the block wouldn't have proceeded to the combat stage). So it's legal to add stealth. The only way to add stealth in combat is Form of Mist, which also continues the action. Well, I guess technically you can tap Opium Den in the middle of combat, but sans a continue-action clause it won't accomplish much. >If we are pretending you weren't blocked, then under this rule you may >not add stealth to the action. If we abide by rule 6.2.2 then superior >Form of Mist simply may not be played at all. Fortunately we can fall >back on the rule 1.4. With all respect (because you've put thought into this, clearly, and you're a polite enough fellow), the 'pretend you weren't blocked' thing is more your inference than the way the card actually works. You don't pretend the block didn't happen. If you pretend the block didn't happen, yeah, you can't play the card. But because the block DID happen (and is happening right now, in combat), you can add stealth, etc. >Anyway, if anyone has any response to this, feel free. Maybe someone >in a position of authority wants to point out the flaw in my argument, >but I'm pretty sure there isn't one. What I really hope though is that >I've simply misunderstood the way this card has been ruled to work, >and we're already in agreement. I think we are already in agreement. Let me know if I failed to address something specific. I snipped bits pretty liberally and didn't really indicate where, but let me know if anything fatally important got cut. gomi -- There are enough people who have a brain-cell to their credit and yet still disagree with me that I don't feel any need to argue with morons. -- M. Lorton

"TwitchBot" <mchir...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:ecf58b2e.01080...@posting.google.com... > "The superior form cannot be used by the acting vampire unless he > needs the stealth. [RTR 19970630] " Here's the thing. This generally only happens when the vampire is in combat due to some other effect than the normal course of blocking actions, which would be the small set of corner cases that Ken Shaw refers to. The best example I can think of is Brujah Frenzy. A Brujah (with PRO) is, say bleeding, and plays Alacrity for +1 stealth after an attempt to block. The Methuselah being bled is unable to intercept, and plays Brujah Frenzy, sending the bleeding Brujah into combat with a vampire controlled by the acting Methuselah's grand-prey. This minion in combat has 0 intercept, thus the acting minion does not need the stealth, as he already has more than 0. Xian

>> "The superior form cannot be used by the acting vampire unless he >> needs the stealth. [RTR 19970630] " > > Here's the thing. This generally only happens when the vampire is in > combat due to some other effect than the normal course of blocking > actions, which would be the small set of corner cases that Ken Shaw > refers to. You mean like something like Bum's Rush or Haven Uncovered. Yeah, those sorts of things almost never happen. ;) Regards, Noal

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, it could just be my playgroup, but I've find it to be a rare occurence indeed when an acting vampire gets into combat with Bum's Rush or Haven Uncovered and then proceeds to strike with a S:CE card. Maybe it's meant to confuse all the other players? =) Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010807003920...@ng-co1.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] When we had the old DotB damage timing, you could Bum's Rush and if someone other than your intended target blocks, you could Dawn Op, DotB, and Form of Mist. You get another chance to fight and the first blocker goes to torpor. Adding insult to injury the intended target gets the Dawn Op, DotB slam as well. -Robert

"Xian" <xi...@NOSPAMwaste.org> wrote in message news:<hIGb7.1062$IS6.2...@news.uswest.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] AH! Ok, this is exactly the kind of example I was looking for. Thank you! - Matt

Noal McDonald <dhar...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com> wrote in message news:<3B6F680E...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] These don't really apply to the situation at hand, because if you Bum's Rush me or attack me via Haven Uncovered, I'm not the acting minion. Form of Mist is very simple when I'm not acting. (It's just Strike: Combat Ends) On the other hand, if I'm Bum's Rushing you, that's still yet a different situation. There is specifically a rule that says I can't play FoM after successfully attacking your minion via Bum's Rush or whatever. Essentially, that's because the action has already succeeded, so I can't "continue" it. Form of Mist is also relitively simple in this case. - Matt

In message <ecf58b2e.0108...@posting.google.com>, TwitchBot <mchir...@netscape.net> writes >> > Here's the thing. This generally only happens when the vampire is in >> > combat due to some other effect than the normal course of blocking >> > actions, which would be the small set of corner cases that Ken Shaw >> > refers to. >> >> You mean like something like Bum's Rush or Haven Uncovered. Yeah, those >> sorts of things almost never happen. ;) > >These don't really apply to the situation at hand, because if you >Bum's Rush me or attack me via Haven Uncovered, I'm not the acting >minion. No, but if I rush you successfully, I don't need the stealth and am in combat and am the acting minion. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F HEY, MOM! I FOUND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET B457CA213D7E6 YOU WERE TELLING ME TO NOT TALK TO! 68C3695D623D5D

> On the other hand, if I'm Bum's Rushing you, that's still yet a > different situation. There is specifically a rule that says I can't > play FoM after successfully attacking your minion via Bum's Rush or > whatever. Essentially, that's because the action has already > succeeded, so I can't "continue" it. Not entirely true. My Minion A Bum's Rushes Minion B Your Minion C blocks My Minion A can play FoM to continue the action of Rushing Minion B at +1 stealth. Sorrow --- I'm not afraid of being sick, I'm more afraid of being well I'm not afraid to put the gun in my hand, I'm just afraid it will hurt like Hurt like hell

Sorrow wrote: > > > On the other hand, if I'm Bum's Rushing you, that's still yet a > > different situation. There is specifically a rule that says I can't > > play FoM after successfully attacking your minion via Bum's Rush or > > whatever. Essentially, that's because the action has already > > succeeded, so I can't "continue" it. > > Not entirely true. > > My Minion A Bum's Rushes Minion B > Your Minion C blocks > My Minion A can play FoM to continue the action of Rushing > Minion B at +1 stealth. It is true. After "successfully" attacking via Bum's Rush, you cannot FoM at superior. Your example shows how you can FoM after unsuccessfully attacking. [ quoted text not captured ]

> It is true. > After "successfully" attacking via Bum's Rush, you cannot FoM at > superior. > Your example shows how you can FoM after unsuccessfully attacking. My bad. Didn't quite read that right... Sorrow --- "...but you know, evil is an exact science..."

Halcyan 2 wrote: > Well, it could just be my playgroup, but I've find it to be a rare occurence > indeed when an acting vampire gets into combat with Bum's Rush or Haven > Uncovered and then proceeds to strike with a S:CE card. Actually, just a few weeks ago I unleashed a !Tor/Tor deck that uses Catatonic Fear/Psyche!/Catatonic Fear/Telepathic Tracking/Riposte/Telepa... (you get the idea) on my local playgroup to S:CE the opposing vampire into torpor. It's pretty card intensive and hard to hone into a seriously competitive deck, but you should see the look of shock on your opponents' faces. I'll post it later. Look for the deck called "Killing Them Softly." Regards, Noal

"Noal McDonald" <dhar...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com> wrote > > Actually, just a few weeks ago I unleashed a !Tor/Tor deck that uses > Catatonic Fear/Psyche!/Catatonic Fear/Telepathic > Tracking/Riposte/Telepa... (you get the idea) on my local playgroup to > S:CE the opposing vampire into torpor. It's pretty card intensive and > hard to hone into a seriously competitive deck, but you should see the > look of shock on your opponents' faces. As I recall, my look of shock was accompanied by 'Wow! Somebody actually plays with Riposte?' Just kidding. It's an interesting way to hurt your opponent without being hurt. Cheers, WES

LSJ wrote: > Sorrow wrote: > > Not entirely true. > > > > My Minion A Bum's Rushes Minion B > > Your Minion C blocks > > My Minion A can play FoM to continue the action of Rushing > > Minion B at +1 stealth. > > It is true. > > After "successfully" attacking via Bum's Rush, you cannot FoM at > superior. > > Your example shows how you can FoM after unsuccessfully attacking. Does this mean that Minion A can rush Minion B, be blocked by B, maneouver with a gun and deal damage, press, S:CE with Form of Mist at superior, enter combat with B again, grin evilly at B:s controller and maneouver to long dealing damage once more? Sten During -- NetGuide Scandinavia AB http://www.netg.se/ Tankegangen 4 in...@netg.se 417 56 Goteborg Phone:+46 - (0)31 - 50 79 45 Sweden Fax: +46 - (0)31 - 50 79 39

Sten During wrote: > > LSJ wrote: > > > Sorrow wrote: > > > Not entirely true. > > > > > > My Minion A Bum's Rushes Minion B > > > Your Minion C blocks > > > My Minion A can play FoM to continue the action of Rushing > > > Minion B at +1 stealth. > > > > It is true. > > > > After "successfully" attacking via Bum's Rush, you cannot FoM at > > superior. > > > > Your example shows how you can FoM after unsuccessfully attacking. > > Does this mean that Minion A can rush Minion B, be blocked by B, maneouver > with > a gun and deal damage, press, S:CE with Form of Mist at superior, enter > combat with > B again, grin evilly at B:s controller and maneouver to long dealing > damage once more? That's possible, sure. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3B7157B0...@netg.se>, Sten During <ya...@netg.se> writes >> It is true. >> >> After "successfully" attacking via Bum's Rush, you cannot FoM at >> superior. >> >> Your example shows how you can FoM after unsuccessfully attacking. > >Does this mean that Minion A can rush Minion B, be blocked by B, >maneouver with a gun and deal damage, press, S:CE with Form of Mist at >superior, enter combat with B again, grin evilly at B:s controller and >maneouver to long dealing damage once more? Yep. Because the action was blocked in this fashion, Minion A needs stealth. So he can continue the action with Form of Mist (which can be played as any strike in the combat, not just the first or whatever). [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 8 Aug 2001 16:39:54 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >In message <3B7157B0...@netg.se>, Sten During <ya...@netg.se> >writes >>Does this mean that Minion A can rush Minion B, be blocked by B, >>maneouver with a gun and deal damage, press, S:CE with Form of Mist at >>superior, enter combat with B again, grin evilly at B:s controller and >>maneouver to long dealing damage once more? > >Yep. Because the action was blocked in this fashion, Minion A needs >stealth. So he can continue the action with Form of Mist (which can be >played as any strike in the combat, not just the first or whatever). [STUPID IDEA WARNING] Hmm. Clan Impersonate Ellen Fence to Brujah Antitribu. Give her the Sword of Judgement (preferably via Disguised Weapon). She Rushes valuable tapped minion Democritus. Less-valuable untapped minion Sir Walter Nash blocks. She strikes twice with the Sword, presses with Flash, strikes once with the Sword and plays Form of Mist to continue the action. I see two or three cards' worth of setup, and two cards played during combat. I like it. In addition, the additional strikes do NOT have to be with the Sword, so you can always opt to strike-hands at some point to make sure someone with low blood remains merely empty, as opposed to torporized (making the Form of Mist impossible). If you're blocked by a Raging Combat Minion, both cards revert to defense; maneuver to long, Form of Mist to bail out. If people quit blocking, use Form of Mist as a dodge at inferior; also usable against Piddly Minions with an Ivory Bow. Include Blurs for when you actually want to torporize someone, and all kinds of toolbox-toys as appropriate; you have plenty of room. Best is a couple Shadow of the Beast, so you have a built-in press. Include bunches of the CEL and PRO weenies to bleed for 1 lots. -- Derek "You should rush your predator this turn." "Why?" "Because he's not me."

> > Well, it could just be my playgroup, but I've find it to be a rare occurence > > indeed when an acting vampire gets into combat with Bum's Rush or Haven > > Uncovered and then proceeds to strike with a S:CE card. > > Actually, just a few weeks ago I unleashed a !Tor/Tor deck that uses > Catatonic Fear/Psyche!/Catatonic Fear/Telepathic > Tracking/Riposte/Telepa... (you get the idea) on my local playgroup to > S:CE the opposing vampire into torpor. It's pretty card intensive and > hard to hone into a seriously competitive deck, but you should see the > look of shock on your opponents' faces. > Some-one in my playgroup tried the the same thing but added Blood to Water in the mix, and ,of course, a Walk of Flame to really finish the job. Rebekka, Chantry Elder of Munich is the best vamp to try this with. the others: Melisande and Bindusara, Historian of the Kindred but they have only inferior tha. (add Tremere Convocation) Very card and blood intensive (Ankara Citadel, Turkey!), but quite effective against non-IG decks. Never sweeps because you almost sure to go through your deck after your second oust (if any!). Fun, nonethless Jeroen

Derek Ray wrote: > She Rushes valuable tapped minion Democritus. Less-valuable untapped > minion Sir Walter Nash blocks. She strikes twice with the Sword, > presses with Flash, strikes once with the Sword and plays Form of Mist > to continue the action. I've actually played something similar to this. Toreador gun-deck. Vote - get blocked. Maneouver with gun, shoot, Blur, shoot, Majesty-untap, Psyche , maneouver, shoot, Blur, shoot, shoot. Smile happily and play Legal Manipulations. Above unusual when acting but horribly penalizing when defending as you draw out combat-cards, S:CE, Psyche and do what you actually plan to do during the second combat hoping that you've just messed up a planned combat-combination. [ quoted text not captured ]