[ORIGINS] and Twilight Rebellion

LSJ, As Twilight Rebellion's release date is May 28th, and Origins begins on May 25th, can we get an exemption and have TR legal beginning May 25th? I am asking because having the set legal for the few convention days before the Qualifier allows the players to practice their "new" decks and decide what to use for the qualifier. I realize that this may allow someone else in the world to run a TR tournament 3 days early, but I believe that the benefits greatly outweigh any negatives. Also, it would mean a lot to us if you said 'yes'. =) Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

On Wed, 14 May 2008 18:47:34 -0700, "Kevin M." wrote: >LSJ, >As Twilight Rebellion's release date is May 28th, and Origins begins on >May 25th, can we get an exemption and have TR legal beginning May 25th? Prerelease events are not sanctioned. If you can get Oscar to provide product, you can run an event.

"Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote in message news:JGMWj.28694$UM3....@newsfe15.phx... > As Twilight Rebellion's release date is May 28th, and Origins begins on > May 25th, Oh, wow! Origins is now over Memorial Day? weekend!? Since when did this start? Fred

"The Lasombra" <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:k97n24ppf06teskr9...@4ax.com... [ quoted text not captured ] As I understand it, prerelease events _can_ be sanctioned if they're run as legal limited tournaments. It even mentions this in rule 4.3. You can't do some of the odd special rules like the 40/40 rule and still have it sanctioned but otherwise it's perfectly OK. Why do people not know this? Even Robyn assumed my 3E pre-release tournament last year wasn't sanctioned. Fred

"Registration opening at 7 a.m. on the Wednesday June 25th, 2008 (games starting at 8 a.m.) running 'till 8 p.m. on the 29th. Registration is open from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. Wednesday - Saturday (and 'till 4 p.m. on Sunday) and though game-playing is 24 hours a day, games tend to be between 8 a.m. and Midnight. The Exhibit Hall is open 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. on Thursday - Saturday and 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. on Sunday." http://www.originsgamefair.com/ I think he fat fingered the Origins date, and would like a waiver to run a sanctioned tournament since it falls just shy of 1 month after release.

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > "Kevin M." wrote: > >> LSJ, >> As Twilight Rebellion's release date is May 28th, and Origins begins >> on May 25th, can we get an exemption and have TR legal beginning >> May25th? > > Prerelease events are not sanctioned. > If you can get Oscar to provide product, you can run an event. Damnit, I meant June 25th, of course. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] There used to be something about playtesters couldn't play in Sanctioned Limited events for at least 30 days. I don't see that in the Tournament Rules. Maybe its in some sort of playtester agreement or maybe it doesn't exist anymore. Later, ~Rehlow

[ quoted text not captured ] When most people say "sanctioned" they mean "rated". Pre-release events, no matter the form, are not rated.

On May 14, 10:18 pm, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Prerelease events are not sanctioned. > If you can get Oscar to provide product, you can run an event. Kevin accidentally ng date. It is June 25th. I'm pretty sure he is trying to get special dispensation for Twilight Rebellion to be tournament legal at Origins, which means making the set tournament legal 3 days early. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Twilight Rebellion will be legal at Origins. If TR is released May28 it will be legal June27 or 28. Sat June 28 will be the qualifier. No one will play an anarch deck (the guantlet has been thrown) Matt

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:seUWj.3157$ah4....@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Eh? Why would they be sanctioned but not rated? I'm not sure it matters a ton or anything, but is there a rule or something I'm missing? Fred ...thinks "sanctioned but not rated" is a distinction that's probably not worth having

On May 15, 9:51 am, matt...@gmail.com wrote: > Twilight Rebellion will be legal at Origins. If TR is released May28 > it will be legal June27 or 28. Sat June 28 will be the qualifier. No > one will play an anarch deck (the guantlet has been thrown) > > Matt But if you go back to Kevin's original post, and excuse the date error, in it he requests TR to be legal for the start of Origins (June 25) so that participants could become accustomed to the new cards in an event or two before the qualifier. John P Winnipeg Sadly not going to Origins.... yet ;)

> But if you go back to Kevin's original post, and excuse the date > error, in it he requests TR to be legal for the start of Origins (June > 25) so that participants could become accustomed to the new cards in > an event or two before the qualifier. > > John P > Winnipeg > Sadly not going to Origins.... yet ;) I understand that but I like the idea of a set becoming legal in the middle(end?) of event. I do not think this set will change change the game that much, but it could be an interesting study on the impact of a set coming into play. If I were going I would play decks that wanted(could use) cards form the new set then make the changes to see performance impact. Of course, this would be more interesting if sets are legal on friday. But I play the game for fun, not just to win. Wish I was going. Matt

On May 15, 12:16 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > Eh? Why would they be sanctioned but not rated? I'm not sure it matters > a ton or anything, but is there a rule or something I'm missing? "Sanctioned" means that the event is following official rules (i.e.no funny house rules or variants or whatever). "Rated" means that it generates rating points. Something can be sanctioned but not rated (like a official prerelease). I'm pretty sure that something can't be rated but not sanctioned. It seems likely that most sanctioned events are rated events, but in the case of something like a prerelease (which does not use rating due to the brand new cards), you got sanctioned (following the official rules) but not rated. -Peter

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Pre-release events, no matter the form, are not rated. The VEKN rules imply otherwise: ----- 4.3. New Releases New V:TES cards and rules (new expansions, new editions of the basic set, new rules released in expansions or basic sets, and promotional cards) are allowed in Constructed tournament play beginning 30 days after their retail release date. V:EKN announcements confirm the exact date that each new card set enters tournament play before the set is released. New cards or rules are allowed in Limited tournament play immediately, including before the release date (for example, at a Prerelease tournament). -----

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:1acb62aa-7723-4cd6...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... On May 15, 12:16 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > > Eh? Why would they be sanctioned but not rated? I'm not sure it matters > > a ton or anything, but is there a rule or something I'm missing? > > "Sanctioned" means that the event is following official rules (i.e.no > funny house rules or variants or whatever). > > "Rated" means that it generates rating points. > > Something can be sanctioned but not rated (like a official > prerelease). I'm pretty sure that something can't be rated but not > sanctioned. I understood the semantics. My question was about, "Where does it say this in the rules, web pages, or other wellsprings of authorized official-dom?" I sure hope this is not another "ruling" which is "documented" through Usenet archival. :-P Fred (just search, "tournament + sanction + prerelease + LSJ" :-P)

[ quoted text not captured ] How does that imply that pre-release events are rated?

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:UJ3Xj.3245$ah4...@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Per "Introduction" of this document: "The Vampire: Elder Kindred Network (V:EKN) Tournament Rules help maintain fair and consistent worldwide sanctioned tournament play for all Vampire: The Eternal StruggleTM (V:TES) games." This would appear to me to imply that all tournaments described in this document are considered "sanctioned tournaments". Then... From the White Wolf web page documenting the rating system, under "Computing Rating", second paragraph, first sentence: "Each player's rating is based only on sanctioned tournaments attending in the preceding 18 months." So we see sanctioned tournament are used to compute ratings. Voila! Implication. Fred

On May 15, 6:37 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > I understood the semantics. My question was about, "Where does it say > this in the rules, web pages, or other wellsprings of authorized > official-dom?" > > I sure hope this is not another "ruling" which is "documented" through Usenet > archival. :-P Huh. I didn't think it was something that needed to be said anywhere. Or ruled on. It is just something that is--you can have a sanctioned event that isn't rated (i.e. pre-release; they are sanctioned if they are using the offical rules, but they don't generate rating points, due to being outside the realm of things that get rated). Or maybe I am misunderstanding you. -Peter

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:ed42b56b-dc92-406b...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Well, it kind of needs to be said somewhere what is "outside the realm of things that get rated" and what is not. Don't you think? > Or maybe I am misunderstanding you. Apparently. Or at least say, I'm not understanding why "things that are rated" vs. "things that are not" seems to be an obvious distinction to you but not to me. People like me need these things written down somewhere. Fred

On May 15, 11:48 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > Well, it kind of needs to be said somewhere what is "outside the realm of > things that get rated" and what is not. Don't you think? I thought it did say that pre-release events were not rated. As they are using cards that are not yet legal for sanctioned tournaments (i.e. cards that are less than 1 month old). > Apparently. Or at least say, I'm not understanding why "things that are > rated" vs. "things that are not" seems to be an obvious distinction to > you but not to me. People like me need these things written down > somewhere. The only things that aren't rated, as far as I am aware are things: A) That are not sanctioned (events with homemade rules). B) That are using cards that are not legal for rated play (pre- release?) And I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that pre-release events are not sanctioned. Although I probably couldn't find it if I needed to. -Peter

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Jozxyqk wrote: > > 4.3. New Releases > > > > New cards or rules are allowed in Limited tournament play immediately, including > > before the release date (for example, at a Prerelease tournament). > > ----- > How does that imply that pre-release events are rated? If a prerelease tournament uses a standard Limited format, and doesn't include playtesters, where in the VEKN rules does it differentiate this format from any other Limited format? 4.3 seems to treat them the same. I also found this message, where you said that prerelease tournaments are able to be "rated" if they follow the correct sanctioning procedures: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/1fbbaf97e627c9ed Jozxyqk At least this is better than arguing about pronouns

Jozxyqk wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> Jozxyqk wrote: >>> 4.3. New Releases >>> >>> New cards or rules are allowed in Limited tournament play immediately, including >>> before the release date (for example, at a Prerelease tournament). >>> ----- > >> How does that imply that pre-release events are rated? > > If a prerelease tournament uses a standard Limited format, and doesn't include > playtesters, where in the VEKN rules does it differentiate this format from any > other Limited format? 4.3 seems to treat them the same. Ah. With the addition of a few unstated caveats. Thanks.

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > If a prerelease tournament uses a standard Limited format, and doesn't include > > playtesters, where in the VEKN rules does it differentiate this format from any > > other Limited format? 4.3 seems to treat them the same. > Ah. With the addition of a few unstated caveats. > Thanks. Right. But you had just said: > Pre-release events, *no matter the form*, are not rated. (emphasis mine) which I was trying to prove incorrect. That's all.

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:7928d631-acad-47f1...@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com... > The only things that aren't rated, as far as I am aware are things: > > A) That are not sanctioned (events with homemade rules). Sure. > B) That are using cards that are not legal for rated play (pre- > release?) Ah, we're squirming around with the semantics again. If (B), then where do I find a list of the "cards that are not legal for rated play"? In fact, there's a specific clause negating the 30-day waiting period for limited tournaments in the tournament rules, so this isn't the reason pre-releases don't qualify. > And I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that pre-release events are not > sanctioned. Although I probably couldn't find it if I needed to. In fact, the snipped James quoted implies otherwise. That's probably why you can't find it. Fred

On May 16, 10:38 am, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > Ah, we're squirming around with the semantics again. If (B), then > where do I find a list of the "cards that are not legal for rated > play"? In fact, there's a specific clause negating the 30-day > waiting period for limited tournaments in the tournament rules, so > this isn't the reason pre-releases don't qualify. I'm really not attempting to squirm around anything, semantic or otherwise. I have always been under the impression, for whatever reason I cannot currently identify, that pre-release events (much like story line events), are not rated. But if they follow the rules as presented by the VEKN, they are sanctioned. As that seems to be the case, it had to have been made clear at some point by someone. > In fact, the snipped James quoted implies otherwise. That's probably > why you can't find it. Maybe? I dunno. -Peter