OFFICIAL VEKN CLAN VENTRUE NEWSLETTER Vol.II No.8 April.2001

OFFICIAL VEKN CLAN VENTRUE NEWSLETTER Vol.II No.8 April.2001 Humblest apologies for the multi-posting but I currently use three different news servers on two separate PC's and read a different set of posts on each ! wtf is going on? INTRODUCTION PLAY STRATEGIES - Anti combat musings. FOCUS ON THE CARDS - Guest slot. Mr. Matt Green's article on Dramatic Upheaval / Kindred Restructure AGITATION NATION - The endgame. DECK OF THE MONTH - Ventrue commons. CONUNDRUM CORNER - "Raall up, raall up.. come and knock the head of the ancient Vampire" _______________________________________ INTRODUCTION Well, well Scrye magazine readers voted V:TES 7th overall best CCG of all time, above Legend of the Five Rings. If you ask me that translates into a boatload of both new and old potential players. When pondering what to wax lyrical about this issue, I thought I would devote a portion of this newsletter to combat and anti-combat strategies. Interestingly weenie Potence does not do well over here, many VERY good 'combat' players have tried it and not been convinced. I personally think that different decks using Wynn, Badger, Beast, Lazbo, Richter et al maybe using Freak Drives for different rushes are (certainly over here) a lot nastier and more resilient than disposable weenie rushers. Just had a moment of nostalgia that I thought I'd share with you. Gencon 98 / 99 James Mc Clellan played a superb weenie Potence rush deck with a few Computer Hacks and did bloody well. A radical deck in the environment at the time (UK toolbox) I can't recall if it ran up against a lot of Fortitude because I was too busy crapping myself :o) I think he got 4-5 VP's and got into the final in 3rd or 4th place and tore up the table until William Lee's Muddled Vampire Hunter came out ending the lesson. Good times James. Onward. ___________________________________________________ ANTI-COMBAT STRATEGIES -"Aggghhhhhh. I'm gunna rip you a new one" Nothing is more disheartening than having your carefully constructed vote / bleed / speciality deck torn apart by Beast or his angry pals. In the following article I will try and show how your defences can be effectively (and efficiently) raised to prevent you having to clean up your minions with some bleach and a sponge. I think that it's 'easier' to deny, prevent and flummox combat than to create a consistently effective combat deck. It is widely accepted that it is much harder to progress, gaining VP's and ultimately win with a combat deck than with a non-combat deck. I also find the whole 'ignore' strategy extremely interesting, some of the more focussed S/B decks I have played against have totally ignored the threat of combat in favour of more bleed modifiers or stealth. Stone / paper / scissors I guess ?? I'm intrigued by the idea that a focussed combat deck never blocks, posts on the group a while back suggested that this is the way to go. I can't decide if I agree or not. In theory it's a great idea, but in practice a Rumour Mill and a few wakes goes a LONG way. I guess this would be the first step toward focus becoming toolboxed ? If you ask me the best way to avoid getting worked over is not to get into combat in the first place. How the hell do you do this prey tell ?? MAKE DEALS ...that's all she wrote. Alright, alright, fair enough, there will be times when a player is just determined to kick your head in which is when all the following stuff comes in, but if you keep your wits about you a lot of pain and pan fried minions can be avoided. OK, assuming your silver tongue has left you for a long weekend in the hills or you have run across player X who you ousted in ten minutes last round, lets have a peek at the various options open for defensive modules and strategies. Elysium the Arboretum and Purchase Pact IMO still well worth a master slot in a deck that avoids combat. The odds are still not that bad for them and despite the sect specific nature of the cards they still are a royal pain in the ass for a combat deck to have to overcome each turn. If you have a Cam / Sabbat deck chuck both in and juggle your combat ends. Secure Haven A great one off for protecting your anchorman but read the downside and decide if it is worth the additional protection. I tend to find that it gives you a *bit* more efficiency with your defensive cards as you have one less minion to worry about being rushed. Only really worthwhile if you are playing a high stealth or unblockable deck where you're not often going to get caught taking your dirty bleed or vote actions. Strike: Combat Ends The big one. A real bone of contention with players the world over, you could debate it all day but the bottom line is that the game does need it. Without S:CE, combat decks would really rule the roost. Would this be such a bad thing ? Cut down on sleaze, that's for sure. Different game though :o( When you look at the available S:CE hosers - Psyche Immortal Grapple Dog Pack Thoughts Betrayed Telepathic Tracking Sustained offence or defence - there are strategies that can be effectively employed to hose down 'mass' S:CE, the problem is that the degree of 'focus' required to shut it down means having to cut down on other areas which opens up the anti S:CE deck up for a load of other crap. Damage prevention Largely focussed around Fortitude with smatterings in Chimeristry, Protean, Auspex, Vissisitude and Celerity. MASSIVELY useful as a secondary combat defence, I am yet to be convinced of its power as a primary defence. I am half way through making a deck using all FOR vamps with loads of Unflinching Persistence for range and prevention and a few Skins or Mettles for versatility. Pondering the post SW metagame in the UK with Matt Green over the last few weeks, we have come to the conclusion that Fortitude is almost essential for current tourney success. Assessing the last nine/ten tournaments in the UK I can only recall two winning decks that did not use Fortitude ! I think the 'big' three - Fortitude, Presence, Dominate (and possibly Potence and Obfuscate to a lesser extent ?) - are the main factors in determining metagames. More about this important issue in future letters. Dodge Similar in some ways to combat ends, a few well placed dodges can help avoid a lot of hurt. They are a lot more accessible than combat ends but not half as effective, relying solely on dodges as a defence is pretty weak. Manoeuvres Lately I have rediscovered the potential of manoeuvres as an effective defence, possibly due in part to playing during the week a while ago in some Portsmouth games. The metagame that I have been used to of late is BRUTAL combat, which pretty much completely hoses manoeuvres as an essential stage of rubbing out minions. Playing in Portsmouth I find (no offence) that the combat decks are just not the same. In the past I have needed to play VERY good defence or high level (must have Fortitude!) combat to survive, but the comparative Combat lite TM environment in Portsmouth has reminded me that mass manoeuvres can be a decent defence in a mixed environment. A deck that uses lots of range as a defence is playing a probability game. You are looking to out-manoeuvre your opposition with more range than they have. A lot of the more painful and effective combat techniques can only be deployed at close range so buggering of to long range every combat can be amazingly annoying. What never fails to amaze me is the total lack of combat at some tourneys. National differences are still very much apparent. The current UK metagame is combat all the way. If you are not tooled up with Fortitude and able to dish out pain, trouble is on the horizon. Reading the recent Atlanta tourney report (and photos!) on The Lasombra's site, David D's winning deck looks good but only had seven Thrown Gates in as defence ! Not really a criticism as we all know, doing this allows you to focus on the meat of the deck (and David won !) but it does suggest a lack of combat or some kick ass deal making :o) As a side note on manoeuvres, you must IMO take into account volume range from your victims when playing a combat deck. Drawing out the Beast has seen a lot of use in my Southampton metagames as a hoser because of this. Great card. Thoughts Betrayed Stopping all 'strike' cards can really mess up some combat decks but it's a tad expensive to use as a consistent defence. Problems also arise when you are facing a Tzimisce, Gangrel or Guns deck (or pretty much any other deck that relies on powerful non-strike cards). Not bad to use as a cog in a varied defence strategy maybe with Fortitude ? When playing any non-combat deck, the thing that worries me the most is consistent attacks. Vampires like Beast, Wynn et al. and cards like Haven, Archon and now Waste Management Op. make the difference between a good combat deck and a great one. The ability to rush consistently is powerful, if you have recyclable rushes or a permarusher coming at you turn after turn you are pretty screwed. Your Majesties or prevention WILL eventually run out. On the whole I reckon toolboxed defence is the best way to minimise your losses in a blind game where you plan to avoid combat. I have played and played against a lot of decks that use just one of the above as combat defence, the most popular obviously being S:CE. Whilst being very consistent they are also very predictable and easy to read. Again we get back to the whole Stone/Paper/Scissors effect where S:CE totally scuppers one and gets murdered by the other. If you can include even a few of the above cards in a deck or insert a nice convenient anti-combat 'module' tweeking to suit your current metagame, you are able to survive a lot longer and be able to deploy your own strategies without being vaporised. __________________________________________________ FOCUS ON THE CARDS - "bugger this, I'm off" by Matt Green Dramatic Upheaval The use of Dramatic Upheaval and Kindred Restructure is potentially one of the most irritating things to happen to a player. You spend ages reducing your prey's pool only to have someone leap in at the last moment and steal the fruits of your labour. Whilst toolbox decks with a few votes can sneak in vulture-like and steal the odd v.p. from an unsuspecting sneak bleed deck, more focused vote decks can use more copies to better effect. The Ventrue become the obvious choice in this case, being the archetypal vote clan. Getting away from a deck that is going to cause you problems in the early game gives a player time to build up, whilst in the finals of a tournament an early Dramatic upheaval can even out the seating disadvantages of the 4th and 5th seeds. Dramatic Upheaval is always worth including in a deck if you have any chance of getting a vote passed. It does more damage than any other single vote (with perhaps the exception of Parity Shift) [nah. I reckon you are right Dramatic Up. etc. is the most 'powerful'. Rob] and yet it seems to be underplayed. There are a number of times I've seen players under the cosh from a weenie Computer Hacking deck who would have been much better off trying to get a single vote passed than trying to stop the inevitable 1 v.p. for the bleed deck. If you're dead anyway you may as well try and convince the table to get you into a place where you only stand a slim chance of survival. It also stops the weenie deck from picking up an easy v.p., important if you don't want to meet the deck on the final table. Dramatic Upheaval maximises your v.p. in relation to the other people on your tables. You can effectively decide who kills whom on the tables you play at with the use of these cards. This is where Kindred restructure comes into it's own. If you know the tournament standings before you sit down at round two or three, you know who you have to screw over to get to the final. In round three, don't be afraid to do really good deals with the guys on 0 or 1 v.p, as long as you get enough to reach the final table. Once there, you can determine the best place to sit once things get going. The two repositioning votes give you the power to control the single most variable part of tournament V:TES - the seating order. If you can make that work for you, you have a very powerful weapon indeed. (amen to that. Rob) ___________________________________________________ AGITATION NATION - The Endgame. There are definable points in most games when you can see shifts from beginning to mid to end game stages. I think different strategies can (and possibly should?) be applied to each to maximise the differences between the stages. I shall concentrate on the endgame. Aside from agitation which I will cover shortly, I wanted to mention IMO the most important asset in the endgame. Permanents. Running low on cards and resources, the permanents you have on the table are sooooooooooooo important. Cards like Ecoterrorists, Hunting Grounds, Guns etc. etc. can secure the endgame for you by simply being reusable and consistent. A case in point is at the April Portsmouth tourney where Special Agent Jon Cooper won the day by having an Ecoterrorists consistently churning away in the endgame for straight blood gain or further minion activation. Both players were out of cards beating the living daylights out of each other and it came down to permanents. I sure there was a lot more to it than this (I wasn't there) but Interestingly a lot of our Southampton weekly's boil down to this same stage. Our decks are often built for longevity and 9 games out of 10 end in the other player/s canning it rather than being ousted as they can't see anyway out of the grip of permanents on the table. Hmmmm. By the time you reach the endgame, you really should know largely 'what' all of the remaining decks around the table do AND almost more importantly what type of players you are left with. If you are throwing deals around try to offer things that appeal to the style of player you are dealing with. I firmly believe that there is no great big secret to making table deals, but a few things I try and remember : -If you are trying to get someone to not do something, offer a decent alternative. -TELL THE TRUTH. Not always applicable :o) but if you are trying to appear innocent (ha ha ha) try and stick to the truth to allow your follow up "told you so" at a later date. -Use examples. ie. simplest level - "Do that and I'll fuck you up AGAIN" -Quote the cards/disciplines in play ie. "The bastard can't block you, no discipline he has gives intercept." One other thing that I want to mention is friends. The very nature of our game means that agitation flies around and deals are made, broken and changed from turn to turn. Bottom line - it sometimes gets ugly. It's great playing with your mates but in some ways, I much prefer playing against total strangers. Draw from that what you will !! By the endgame the remaining players have *usually* established a table role or position and unless one player emerges as an obvious leader, no one wants to over stretch themselves and leave an opening for their predator. You might see a few rounds of inactivity before a given player picks up his/her required card/s and makes a play for another VP or the table. As each subsequent player is ousted the game dynamic changes. 5,4,3,2 - Winner. When you get down to three players it really is anyone's game, three usually degenerates into two players hammering each other and the third being left alone to mop up the blood at the end. If you can foster an early animosity between the two remaining players or hang back and leave your prey alone to worry your predator, you are on to a winner. As with most aspects of our game, there is no special formula to deal with the endgame. The only real 'advice' that anyone can give you is to play the style that suits you the best, maximise the usefulness of the resources at your disposal and take time to identify threats, situations and the people around you. ___________________________________________________ DECK OF THE MONTH Deck name: Ventrue commons Deck thrown together to prove that you can make a decent Ventrue deck from commons / uncommons. I was outraged at the thread a while back that suggested that you couldn't do it !! A fair bit of 'toolbox' in there to defend and attack a lot of different threats. I know a few people that play regular booster drafts and conduct experiments with 10, 20, 30 boosters and various clans. I do think you can make a half decent deck from most of the original VTES clans. The real idea is to make something you are comfortable playing and to work in rare / better cards when you get or TRADE, TRADE, TRADE for them. Did I mention trading ?? Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 9, Max: 31, Avg: 5.08] 1 Courtland Leighton (Ventrue, 4, do fo pr) 1 Emerson Bridges (Ventrue, 8, DO FO po PR, Prin) 1 Gideon Fontaine (Ventrue, 3, PR) 1 Heather Florent (Ventrue, 6, do FO PR) 1 Igo the Hungry (Caitiff, 1, pr pt) 1 Natasha Volfchek (Ventrue, 9, ce do FO po PR, Prim) 1 Roland Loussarian (Ventrue, 3, fo pr) 1 Rufina Soledad (Ventrue, 2, fo) 2 Sir Walter Nash (Ventrue, 7, DO FO PR, Prin) 1 Timothy Crowley (Ventrue, 7, an do FO PR, Prin) 1 Violette Prentiss (Ventrue, 4, do PR) Library: (90 cards) 1 Ancient Influence 1 Barrens, The 4 Bewitching Oration 2 Blood Doll 4 Bonding 2 Change of Target 2 Conditioning 3 Consanguineous Boon 2 Conservative Agitation 2 Cryptic Rider 4 Deflection 1 Disputed Territory 2 Dodge 2 Dramatic Upheaval 3 Fake Out 2 Fifth Tradition: Hospitality, The 1 Fortitude 4 Govern the Unaligned 2 Indomitability 2 Information Highway 4 Kine Resources Contested 4 Majesty 1 Major Boon 1 Metro Underground 3 Minion Tap 2 Obedience 1 Praxis Seizure: Geneva 1 Rapid Healing 2 Restoration 1 Rumors of Gehenna 2 Second Tradition: Domain 2 Seduction 3 Skin of Rock 3 Skin of Steel 2 Sudden Reversal 2 Threats 4 Unflinching Persistence 2 Ventrue Headquarters 3 Wake with Evening's Freshness 1 Zip Gun _________________________________________________ CONUNDRUM CORNER - We all know how thorny Arika can be in your side, so following on from this months article on combat defence, take up the gauntlet and see if you can boot the Queen of sleaze down a peg or two in the bitch fight mud wrestle from hell. (PS. She just insulted your parentage) You - Justine, Elder of Dallas Clan Impersonated into Malkavian with a Madness Network in play, on 6 blood - no other frills. Prey - Arika on 11 blood Prey's Hand after Revelations - Superior Mettle, Majesty, Sudden Reversal, Skin of Rock, Govern the Unaligned, Backstab, Up Yours! Q. What is the fewest number of cards needed to enable you to torpor pesky Arika and stay in play yourself after your prey has blocked you bleeding at the end of your Predators turn with the Network? Please assume she/he is shitting bricks and will try to end combat in the first round and will not re-draw any other useable cards. (Hint. I have found two six card finishes and one five card! Matt reckons there is a four ??) _______________________________________________ That's a wrap for April. If you feel like slinging any muck or flowers mail me at - Rob.Tr...@btinternet.com as usual. Here's me raising a glass of cheeky Rioja to the Final Nights and Bloodlines. My faith in WW is now firmly set in stone, you guys kick ass. Mmmm dig those spicy Spanish wines, named after the river Rio Oja in Spain - good with game, rich meats and strong cheese...bollocks wrong group ! Coming up in the May issue : No idea. I'm sure I'll be suitably inspired after the Watford and Portsmouth tourneys at the end of the month. I will write more when I finish all this pesky 'real life' stuff that is laying siege to my leisure time at the moment. Might write a second article (see September 2000 Ventrue letter for first article) on Fortitude, following the post Sabbat War metagame. PS. I am going travelling for three months to Australia, New Zealand and Hong Kong in September > November of this year. I've seen a few posters from Australia and some tourneys listed from time to time, I'll be packing a deck or two in my rucksack and wondered if anyone is up for a few tins and a game ?

On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, shsoton wrote: > You - Justine, Elder of Dallas Clan Impersonated into Malkavian with a > Madness Network in play, on 6 blood - no other frills. > > Prey - Arika on 11 blood > Prey's Hand after Revelations - Superior Mettle, Majesty, Sudden Reversal, > Skin of Rock, Govern the Unaligned, Backstab, Up Yours! > > Q. What is the fewest number of cards needed to enable you to torpor pesky > Arika and stay in play yourself after your prey has blocked you bleeding at > the end of your Predators turn with the Network? > > Please assume she/he is shitting bricks and will try to end combat in the > first round and will not re-draw any other useable cards. > 4 cards. Trap, Telepathic Tracking, and 2 Drain Essences. Marc G. "-but what slow panic, Gouged these chasms round their fretted sockets? Ever from their hair and through their hand palms Misery swelters. Surely we have perished Sleeping, and walk hell; but who these hellish?" Wilfred Owen, "Mental Cases"

[ quoted text not captured ] INTRODUCTION [ quoted text not captured ] Onward. ___________________________________________________ [ quoted text not captured ] Secure Haven [ quoted text not captured ] Strike: Combat Ends [ quoted text not captured ] Damage prevention [ quoted text not captured ] Dodge [ quoted text not captured ] Manoeuvres [ quoted text not captured ] Thoughts Betrayed [ quoted text not captured ] __________________________________________________ [ quoted text not captured ] Dramatic Upheaval [ quoted text not captured ] DECK OF THE MONTH Deck name: Ventrue commons [ quoted text not captured ] Library: (90 cards) [ quoted text not captured ] _________________________________________________ CONUNDRUM CORNER - [ quoted text not captured ] You - Justine, Elder of Dallas Clan Impersonated into Malkavian with a Madness Network in play, on 6 blood - no other frills. Prey - Arika on 11 blood Prey's Hand after Revelations - Superior Mettle, Majesty, Sudden Reversal, Skin of Rock, Govern the Unaligned, Backstab, Up Yours! Q. What is the fewest number of cards needed to enable you to torpor pesky Arika and stay in play yourself after your prey has blocked you bleeding at the end of your Predators turn with the Network? Please assume she/he is shitting bricks and will try to end combat in the first round and will not re-draw any other useable cards. (Hint. I have found two six card finishes and one five card! Matt reckons there is a four ??) _______________________________________________ That's a wrap for April. If you feel like slinging any muck or flowers mail me at - Rob.Tr...@btinternet.com as usual. Here's me raising a glass of cheeky Rioja to the Final Nights and Bloodlines. My faith in WW is now firmly set in stone, you guys kick ass. Mmmm dig those spicy Spanish wines, named after the river Rio Oja in Spain - good with game, rich meats and strong cheese...bollocks wrong group ! Coming up in the May issue : No idea. I'm sure I'll be suitably inspired after the Watford and Portsmouth tourneys at the end of the month. I will write more when I finish all this pesky 'real life' stuff that is laying siege to my leisure time at the moment. Might write a second article (see September 2000 Ventrue letter for first article) on Fortitude, following the post Sabbat War metagame. PS. I am going travelling for three months to Australia, New Zealand and Hong Kong in September > November of this year. I've seen a few posters from Australia and some tourneys listed from time to time, I'll be packing a deck or two in my rucksack and wondered if anyone is up for a few tins and a game ? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 07/03/01

>We all know how thorny Arika can be in your side, so following on from this >months article on combat defence, take up the gauntlet and see if you can >boot the Queen of sleaze down a peg or two in the bitch fight mud wrestle >from hell. (PS. She just insulted your parentage) > >You - Justine, Elder of Dallas Clan Impersonated into Malkavian with a >Madness Network in play, on 6 blood - no other frills. > >Prey - Arika on 11 blood >Prey's Hand after Revelations - Superior Mettle, Majesty, Sudden Reversal, >Skin of Rock, Govern the Unaligned, Backstab, Up Yours! > >Q. What is the fewest number of cards needed to enable you to torpor pesky >Arika and stay in play yourself after your prey has blocked you bleeding at >the end of your Predators turn with the Network? > >Please assume she/he is shitting bricks and will try to end combat in the >first round and will not re-draw any other useable cards. > >(Hint. I have found two six card finishes and one five card! Matt reckons >there is a four ??) Telepathic Tracking, Blood to Water x 2, and Blood Rage for four cards? Trap, Telepathic Tracking, Drain Essence x 2, and Blood Fury (or Blood Rage or Soul Burn) works for five cards, though you'll need a round of two of striking with hands (or perhaps b*tch-slapping in this case). Also, some questions: #1. Does Arika use the Majesty to untap (hence paying a blood)? #2. Are you allowed to have various permanents in play or placed on Arika? It says Justine has no frills but maybe you can pretend there's an Anathema on Arika? #3. Similarly, I don't suppose you have any other vampires in play? So could you Hidden Lurker or Mask of a Thousand Faces to someone else? #4. I suppose this is all tournmament legal? Otherwise you can play TT, Concealed or Disguised Weapon, and then slap her with a Rowan Ring for only three cards??? Still working on more solutions... =) Halcyan 2

First thing I'd like to say is that I like how analytical this is. >I also find the whole 'ignore' strategy >extremely interesting, some of the more focussed S/B decks I have played >against have totally ignored the threat of combat in favour of more bleed >modifiers or stealth. Stone / paper / scissors I guess ?? I've seen it work well, though there haven't been enough decks that tried it to test its reliability. >I'm intrigued by the idea that a focussed combat deck never blocks, posts on >the group a while back suggested that this is the way to go. I can't decide >if I agree or not. In theory it's a great idea, but in practice a Rumour >Mill and a few wakes goes a LONG way. I guess this would be the first step >toward focus becoming toolboxed ? If I had to rate rush versus intercept combat in terms of VP potential, I'd put intercept higher. One minion can still bleed out (or vote out) a rush deck. Might be different if rush was common enough to see in numbers at tables. >Without S:CE, combat decks would really rule the roost. Would this be such a >bad thing ? Rule the roost or require people to build more toolboxy decks? >MASSIVELY useful as a secondary combat >defence, I am yet to be convinced of its power as a primary defence. I am >half way through making a deck using all FOR vamps with loads of Unflinching >Persistence for range and prevention and a few Skins or Mettles for >versatility. I've given up on relying on fortitude for combat. In order to stop Carrion Crows, various aggro damage, big hand strikes, a deck needs to devote far too many card slots to it. Besides, if you run up against a noncombat deck, those slots are wasted. >Pondering the post SW metagame in the UK with Matt Green over the last few >weeks, we have come to the conclusion that Fortitude is almost essential for >current tourney success. Assessing the last nine/ten tournaments in the UK I >can only recall two winning decks that did not use Fortitude ! I think the >'big' three - Fortitude, Presence, Dominate (and possibly Potence and >Obfuscate to a lesser extent ?) - are the main factors in determining >metagames. More about this important issue in future letters. These conversations would make far more interesting newsgroup material than arguing whether STI is as good as Ascendance. BTW, our last two tournaments were won by !Malk S&B with annoyance and Tzimisce S&B with Embraces. >What never fails to amaze me is the total lack of combat at some tourneys. I don't expect much. It's a cycle. If combat seems plentiful, then combat slots are taken up defending against it, which encourages getting into combat to make use of those slots. We've never had combat be that plentiful. >Deck thrown together to prove that you can make a decent Ventrue deck from >commons / uncommons. I was outraged at the thread a while back that >suggested that you couldn't do it !! We tried sealed box (Jyhad) one time right after getting a case. Waste of time. Decks looked a lot like standard constructed decks. One player basically played a prince deck.

In message <20010425184146...@ng-ma1.aol.com>, Ian Lee <cur...@aol.com> writes <snippety snip - Ignore as an interesting strategy> >I've seen it work well, though there haven't been enough decks that tried it to >test its reliability. One other serious problem is play environment. In a highly tool-boxed environment, "Ignore" works differently to a focused deck environment. This seriously compounds the problems of lack of data. Another thing to consider is that it's only the actions/reactions that "Ignore" the other strategy. The play - the selection of targets - clearly doesn't. Agitation is also the premier ability for an "Ignore" deck - so long as your deck has some leverage to cause some shit for people, you don't need to include *any* cards as defence for that. Agitation as a defence is, of course, one Rob Treasure knows well. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F What's the meaning when you speak with so much feeling? B457CA213D7E6 Is it over when you're sober? Is it junk? 68C3695D623D5D

<snip> > PS. I am going travelling for three months to Australia, New Zealand and > Hong Kong in September > November of this year. I've seen a few posters from > Australia and some tourneys listed from time to time, I'll be packing a deck > or two in my rucksack and wondered if anyone is up for a few tins and a game > ? > We've got quite a healthy scene in Sydney. You'd be more than welcome to join in some games. tournaments are becoming more regular as well so there's an even chance there'll be one when you're here. Chris.

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote > <snippety snip - Ignore as an interesting strategy> > >I've seen it work well, though there haven't been enough decks that tried it to > >test its reliability. > > One other serious problem is play environment. > > In a highly tool-boxed environment, "Ignore" works differently to a > focused deck environment. This seriously compounds the problems of lack > of data. > > Another thing to consider is that it's only the actions/reactions that > "Ignore" the other strategy. The play - the selection of targets - > clearly doesn't. Agitation is also the premier ability for an "Ignore" > deck - so long as your deck has some leverage to cause some shit for > people, you don't need to include *any* cards as defence for that. > Agitation as a defence is, of course, one Rob Treasure knows well. I've lately found this strategy to be *very* successful. Trying to plan defenses against one type of predator is like playing a shell game... If you don't get that type of predator, you're wasting deck-space. I have lately chosen to not bother with the shells at all, and instead focus so relentlessly and speedily on my prey that by the time he has guessed which shell is correct... it is too late. Hmmm, a bit melodramatic maybe, but it seems to be working for me. A good offense does indeed help here, but I think the advantage comes more from speed gained by leaving your Obedience/Deflections/Intercepts out of the deck. And since I'm not that concerned about what my predator is doing, I can tap all my minions and just take whatever he gives me and not look backwards if I can help it. Granted, this works better against some decks than others but what can you do? A Rush predator is going to kill your guys regardless, so speeding up your own offense will just mean he has to race harder to keep up with you. A Bleeder predator is going to be disappointed when you gain more from ousting than he takes from bleeding... meanwhile his stealth cards jam his hand. A vote deck struggles against this in much the same way. In all these cases, you *will* get hurt, but you will also take many Methuselahs by surprise. Another advantage I've noticed is that I generally don't *care* if they know what my strategy is... As long as it is effective, who cares if they know what is coming? I've had Revelations played and haven't even cared. Sure, you see my seven copies of Govern the Unaligned... can you stop them all? Occasionally... no make that usually, you will be messed up by your predator in some way or another but generally it pays off in how badly you mess up your prey. Cheers, WES

Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010425171518...@ng-mq1.aol.com... >Please assume she/he is shitting bricks and will try to end combat in the >first round and will not re-draw any other useable cards. > >(Hint. I have found two six card finishes and one five card! Matt reckons >there is a four ??) >Telepathic Tracking, Blood to Water x 2, and Blood Rage for four cards? Sounds good, hang on.... yup looks cool, any threes out there ? Also, that reminds me - can you Taste of Vitae Blood to Water loss ? I can't remember. >Trap, Telepathic Tracking, Drain Essence x 2, and Blood Fury (or Blood Rage or >Soul Burn) works for five cards, though you'll need a round of two of striking >with hands (or perhaps b*tch-slapping in this case). >Also, some questions: >#1. Does Arika use the Majesty to untap (hence paying a blood)? Not sure about that ? CAN she use it to untap ? Could you use the effect after the S:CE part has been scuppered ? I guess so because the card has been played not cancelled. >#2. Are you allowed to have various permanents in play or placed on Arika? It >says Justine has no frills but maybe you can pretend there's an Anathema on >Arika? Um. No. Just the fact's ma'am. Thought I would try a relatively simple one with a load of cheap red herrings to start and build up to some bastard hard ones later on. >#3. Similarly, I don't suppose you have any other vampires in play? So could >you Hidden Lurker or Mask of a Thousand Faces to someone else? Nope, I'll let you know the scenarios / environment with the puzzler. >#4. I suppose this is all tournmament legal? Yup, legal for current tournament play unless otherwise specified. >Otherwise you can play TT, >Concealed or Disguised Weapon, and then slap her with a Rowan Ring for only >three cards??? >Still working on more solutions... =) >Halcyan 2 PS. Please mail to my home address on the newsletter Rob.Tr...@btinternet.co.uk not the other one. Cheers.

>>Telepathic Tracking, Blood to Water x 2, and Blood Rage for four cards? > >Sounds good, hang on.... yup looks cool, any threes out there ? Also, that >reminds me - can you Taste of Vitae Blood to Water loss ? I can't remember. Unfortunately, Taste of Vitae doesn't work with Blood to Water since it isn't "damage." Can't think of any three's right now (besides the non-tournament legal Rowan Ring one). >>Trap, Telepathic Tracking, Drain Essence x 2, and Blood Fury (or Blood Rage >or >>Soul Burn) works for five cards, though you'll need a round of two of >striking >>with hands (or perhaps b*tch-slapping in this case). A slight revision on this one. After thinking about this, you can actually do it without the Blood Rage/Fury or Soul Burn. Thus Trap, Telepathic Tracking, and Drain Essence x 2 is also possible as a 4-card combo, though it involves a lot of hand strikes (and you have to factor in the Skin of Rock too) but it's doable. >>#1. Does Arika use the Majesty to untap (hence paying a blood)? > >Not sure about that ? CAN she use it to untap ? Could you use the effect >after the S:CE part has been scuppered ? I guess so because the card has >been played not cancelled. I'm 98% sure that you can still untap. So...does she? =) Halcyan 2

shsoton wrote: > Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> wrote > > [...] > can you Taste of Vitae Blood to Water loss ? I can't remember. No (card text). B2W has a "burn blood" effect - it doesn't do damage. > >#1. Does Arika use the Majesty to untap (hence paying a blood)? > > Not sure about that ? CAN she use it to untap ? Could you use the effect > after the S:CE part has been scuppered ? I guess so because the card has > been played not cancelled. Yes. No part of Majesty has been "scuppered". The Majesty's "combat ends" effect was applied (otherwise Telepathic Tracking couldn't yet be played), and the Majestic vampire is still free to burn a blood to untap (before the TT is played - that is, at the time the Majesty strike takes effect). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

>===== Original Message From halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) ===== >>>Telepathic Tracking, Blood to Water x 2, and Blood Rage for four cards? >> >>Sounds good, hang on.... yup looks cool, any threes out there ? Also, that >>reminds me - can you Taste of Vitae Blood to Water loss ? I can't remember. How about Disguised Weapon, Ivory Bow, Rotscheck (assumes blocking a bleed or something with Arika)? DH ------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at: http://MailAndNews.com Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser. ------------------------------------------------------------

>===== Original Message From halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) ===== >>>Telepathic Tracking, Blood to Water x 2, and Blood Rage for four cards? >> >>Sounds good, hang on.... yup looks cool, any threes out there ? Also, that >>reminds me - can you Taste of Vitae Blood to Water loss ? I can't remember. How about Disguised Weapon, Ivory Bow, Rotscheck (assumes blocking a bleed or something from Arika)? [ quoted text not captured ]

Ref previous answer - didn't read the question right, but after thinking about it, I guess it should still work. If it doesn'tit just goes to show I don't own any Rotschecks! [ quoted text not captured ]

> How about Disguised Weapon, Ivory Bow, Rotscheck (assumes blocking a bleed > or > something from Arika)? > With the Madness network in play you can bleed oot and you can play Rotschreck. But the question was: <<You - Justine, Elder of Dallas Clan Impersonated into Malkavian with a Madness Network in play, on 6 blood - no other frills. Prey - Arika on 11 blood Prey's Hand after Revelations - Superior Mettle, Majesty, Sudden Reversal, Skin of Rock, Govern the Unaligned, Backstab, Up Yours! Q. What is the fewest number of cards needed to enable you to torpor pesky Arika and stay in play yourself after your prey has blocked you bleeding at the end of your Predators turn with the Network?>> Your combo cannot be used because Arika's Meth. has a SR in his/her hand. Besides, why bother with DW - Ivory Bow? You can play Burst of Sunlight - Rotschreck for only 2 cards, but it can and will be SR-ed. Jeroen

In article <3AF3...@MailAndNews.com>, David Hammond <hamd...@MailAndNews.com> wrote: > Ref previous answer - didn't read the question right, but after thinking > about > it, I guess it should still work. > > If it doesn'tit just goes to show I don't own any Rotschecks! > > DH it would work, were it not for the fact that your opponent can play sudden reversal <g> i had thought about it, and realized my mistake right after... were it not for the SR, you could do it with only two cards: burst of sunlight and rotschreck. because rotschreck's effect will take place right after your strike is declared (as we all know ;), arika wouldn't be able to majesty, and neither would you take the damage from the burst... zarrak -- to wade the pools of malcontent is to acknowledge the loss of what could be.

>>Telepathic Tracking, Blood to Water x 2, and Blood Rage for four cards? > >Sounds good, hang on.... yup looks cool, any threes out there ? Also, that >reminds me - can you Taste of Vitae Blood to Water loss ? I can't remember. > Here's another with four: Thoughts Betrayed, Trap, 2 Blood Fury. Thoughts Betrayed cancels the Majesty, Skin Of Rock doesn't count, because playing it prolongs the Trap, Superior Mettle's use costs one blood each time you prevent, which doesn't matter. Justine strikes hands every round until the last round of the trap. Then Blood Fury #1, twice hands, Blood Fury #2, twice hands for a total of 12 damage (or 7 damage and 5 blood payed to prevent), sending Arika to torpor. Regards Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich "Des ganzen, langen Lebens kurze Freuden und vergebliche Hoffnungen Kommen in grauen Kleidern, wie Abendnebel nach der Sonne Untergang." (Novalis, 'Hymnen an die Nacht')

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 18:14:25 GMT, skaffen_...@runbox.com (skaffen_amtiskaw) wrote: > >>>Telepathic Tracking, Blood to Water x 2, and Blood Rage for four cards? >> >>Sounds good, hang on.... yup looks cool, any threes out there ? Also, that >>reminds me - can you Taste of Vitae Blood to Water loss ? I can't remember. > >Here's another with four: Thoughts Betrayed, Trap, 2 Blood Fury. > >Thoughts Betrayed cancels the Majesty, Skin Of Rock doesn't count, >because playing it prolongs the Trap, Superior Mettle's use costs one >blood each time you prevent, which doesn't matter. Justine strikes >hands every round until the last round of the trap. Then Blood Fury >#1, twice hands, Blood Fury #2, twice hands for a total of 12 damage >(or 7 damage and 5 blood payed to prevent), sending Arika to torpor. And sending Justine to torpor first... =) if the blood totals started at: 8 and 11 - TB and Trap played (costs 2). 6 and 11 - strike hands 1, Skin of Rock played. 5 and 11 - strike hands 1, round 1: no cards played. 4 and 10 - strike hands 1, round 2: no cards played. 3 and 9 - strike Blood Fury (costs 1), struck with hands. 1 and 6 - strike Blood Fury (costs 1), struck with hands. Justine goes to torpor, Arika is left with 3 blood. The TB/Trap/2 Drain Essence would work fairly well, though: 8 and 11 - TB and Trap played (costs 2). 6 and 11 - strike hands 1, Skin of Rock played. 5 and 11 - Drain Essence (costs 2) played, struck with hands. 6 and 7 - strike hands 1, round 1 no cards played. 5 and 6 - strike hands 1, round 2 no cards played. 4 and 5 - Drain Essence (costs 2) played, struck with hands. 5 and 1 - strike hands 1, round 1 no cards played. 4 and 0 - strike hands 1, wave bye-bye to Arika. -- Derek [generic .signature file]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:45:24 -0400, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 18:14:25 GMT, skaffen_...@runbox.com >(skaffen_amtiskaw) wrote: > >> >>>>Telepathic Tracking, Blood to Water x 2, and Blood Rage for four cards? >>> >>>Sounds good, hang on.... yup looks cool, any threes out there ? Also, that >>>reminds me - can you Taste of Vitae Blood to Water loss ? I can't remember. >> >>Here's another with four: Thoughts Betrayed, Trap, 2 Blood Fury. >> >>Thoughts Betrayed cancels the Majesty, Skin Of Rock doesn't count, >>because playing it prolongs the Trap, Superior Mettle's use costs one >>blood each time you prevent, which doesn't matter. Justine strikes >>hands every round until the last round of the trap. Then Blood Fury >>#1, twice hands, Blood Fury #2, twice hands for a total of 12 damage >>(or 7 damage and 5 blood payed to prevent), sending Arika to torpor. > >And sending Justine to torpor first... =) > Ah well, of course you are right... :-( [ quoted text not captured ]

jeroen rombouts <jeroen....@pandora.be> schreef in berichtnieuws sAgG6.29944$ii.32...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be... [ quoted text not captured ] ?? If Justine is blocking Arika, the methuselah controlling Arika cannot use SR as it is her turn. So the 2 card combo would still work. Burst-Rotschreck does negate the Combat Ends effect of Majesty [right??] Arika strikes first, being the acting minion. Justine strikes second, being the reacting minion. Strikes are resolved at the same time, only Rotschreck circumvenes the resolvement of both strikes. It only states, "attempts to inflict aggravated damage". Therefore I would say that, given that Justine would be needing to successfully block Arika, only 2 cards would be needed to torporize her. Tim Eijpe > >

In article <OM6Ywj1...@net037s.hetnet.nl>, "Tim Eijpe" <e.kre...@hetnet.nl> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] but you're bleeding at the end of your *predator's* turn, so your prey can still play SR, as it's not his/her turn, after all... :) i don't think we'll be able to go lower than 4 cards here, altho there are a few variations on which cards you can use. nice puzzle btw, rob; i always liked those you could find in the duelist for 'that other game'. if some folks here feel like making some more up, then by all means do! [ quoted text not captured ]

"Tim Eijpe" <e.kre...@hetnet.nl> [snip the Burst of sunlight/rotschreck stuff] > > Your combo cannot be used because Arika's Meth. has a SR in his/her hand. > > Besides, why bother with DW - Ivory Bow? You can play Burst of Sunlight - > > Rotschreck for only 2 cards, but it can and will be SR-ed. > > > > Jeroen > > ?? If Justine is blocking Arika, the methuselah controlling Arika cannot > use SR as it is her turn. So the 2 card combo would still work. No ! read carefully ! Justine is a Malkavian, with Madness Network in play , and is *intercepted* by Arika while bleeding on his predator's turn. That's why the rotschreck will be suddened. reyda

"cEvin Key" <sterlac1@_nospam_videotron.ca> wrote in message news:sterlac1-270...@modemcable123.154-200-24.que.mc.videotron.ca. .. [ quoted text not captured ] Cheers zarrak, I'll try and pull one out of the magic hat for each months letter :) Rob. > > zarrak > > -- > to wade the pools of malcontent is to acknowledge the loss of what could be. [ quoted text not captured ]

"theventrue" <chr...@comcen.com.au> wrote in message news:3ae7a8e0$1...@news.iprimus.com.au... > > <snip> > > > > PS. I am going travelling for three months to Australia, New Zealand and > > Hong Kong in September > November of this year. I've seen a few posters > from > > Australia and some tourneys listed from time to time, I'll be packing a > deck > > or two in my rucksack and wondered if anyone is up for a few tins and a > game > > ? > > > We've got quite a healthy scene in Sydney. You'd be more than welcome to > join in some games. That would be great Chris. We should be driving into Sydney for about a week or two around the end of October. I'll send you an email about places to stay, good bars etc :o) I hear there is no shortage of those.... tournaments are becoming more regular as well so there's > an even chance there'll be one when you're here. Even better, a full on VTES tour, have to make some special sleaze for you guys. > Chris. Kind regards Rob. [ quoted text not captured ]

>it would work, were it not for the fact that your opponent can play sudden >reversal <g> Well, that's what I thought, but it is still their go, isn't it? The puzzler states you've used the Madness Network to bleed during their go. DH

In message <20010428094052...@ng-mc1.aol.com>, Hamdamcwa <hamd...@aol.com> writes [ quoted text not captured ] Q. What is the fewest number of cards needed to enable you to torpor pesky Arika and stay in play yourself after your prey has blocked you bleeding at the end of your Predators turn with the Network? ^^^^^^^^^ [ quoted text not captured ]

> if the blood totals started at: > > 8 and 11 - TB and Trap played (costs 2). > 6 and 11 - strike hands 1, Skin of Rock played. > 5 and 11 - strike hands 1, round 1: no cards played. > 4 and 10 - strike hands 1, round 2: no cards played. > 3 and 9 - strike Blood Fury (costs 1), struck with hands. > 1 and 6 - strike Blood Fury (costs 1), struck with hands. > > Justine goes to torpor, Arika is left with 3 blood. > > The TB/Trap/2 Drain Essence would work fairly well, though: > > 8 and 11 - TB and Trap played (costs 2). > 6 and 11 - strike hands 1, Skin of Rock played. > 5 and 11 - Drain Essence (costs 2) played, struck with hands. > 6 and 7 - strike hands 1, round 1 no cards played. > 5 and 6 - strike hands 1, round 2 no cards played. > 4 and 5 - Drain Essence (costs 2) played, struck with hands. > 5 and 1 - strike hands 1, round 1 no cards played. > 4 and 0 - strike hands 1, wave bye-bye to Arika. Actually Justine started at 6 blood, not 8.

> but you're bleeding at the end of your *predator's* turn, so your prey can > still play SR, as it's not his/her turn, after all... :) > > i don't think we'll be able to go lower than 4 cards here, altho there are > a few variations on which cards you can use. > Yes you can, revelations was used to see the hand, which means that you may also remove one card in Arika's hand. You remove the SR, and then you play Burst + Rötschreck. Voila, you torpor her with 2 cards.

>Yes you can, revelations was used to see the hand, which means that you may >also remove one card in Arika's hand. You remove the SR, and then you play >Burst + Rötschreck. Voila, you torpor her with 2 cards. No... "Prey - Arika on 11 blood Prey's Hand after Revelations - Superior Mettle, Majesty, Sudden Reversal, Skin of Rock, Govern the Unaligned, Backstab, Up Yours!" Note the part that says "after Revelations." Thus you cannot remove an additional card - those seven cards are the hand. If it makes you feel better, let's pretend that your opponent originally had two Sudden Reversals and you used Revelations to make him discard the first one... Halcyan 2

-- "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010501165200...@ng-ch1.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] No doesn't make me feel better =P It's true that it says after Revelations, but it's unclear if he means after the actual removal of a card as well, since you may look at the hand before removing, and the hand you see right now could be right at that moment ;)

On Tue, 1 May 2001 22:36:54 +0200, "Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: >> The TB/Trap/2 Drain Essence would work fairly well, though: >> >> 8 and 11 - TB and Trap played (costs 2). >> 6 and 11 - strike hands 1, Skin of Rock played. >> 5 and 11 - Drain Essence (costs 2) played, struck with hands. >> 6 and 7 - strike hands 1, round 1 no cards played. >> 5 and 6 - strike hands 1, round 2 no cards played. >> 4 and 5 - Drain Essence (costs 2) played, struck with hands. >> 5 and 1 - strike hands 1, round 1 no cards played. >> 4 and 0 - strike hands 1, wave bye-bye to Arika. > >Actually Justine started at 6 blood, not 8. Hm, so she did. Well, she drops down to 2 blood in the above sequence then; just enough to pay for the second Drain Essence, and since she gains 4 blood then, has enough to heal damage from the hand strike. Still works out. [ quoted text not captured ]

Roger Carhult <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message news:9cna28$h2u$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk... > "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message > news:20010501165200...@ng-ch1.aol.com... > > >Yes you can, revelations was used to see the hand, which means that you > may > > >also remove one card in Arika's hand. You remove the SR, and then you > play > > >Burst + Rötschreck. Voila, you torpor her with 2 cards. > > > > No... > > > > "Prey - Arika on 11 blood > > Prey's Hand after Revelations - Superior Mettle, Majesty, Sudden Reversal, > > Skin of Rock, Govern the Unaligned, Backstab, Up Yours!" > > > > Note the part that says "after Revelations." Thus you cannot remove an > > additional card - those seven cards are the hand. > > > > If it makes you feel better, let's pretend that your opponent originally > had > > two Sudden Reversals and you used Revelations to make him discard the > first > > one... > > > > Halcyan 2 > > No doesn't make me feel better =P It's true that it says after Revelations, > but it's unclear if he means after the actual removal of a card as well, 'He' means that the effect has passed and you have already removed another Majesty or something :o) > since you may look at the hand before removing, and the hand you see right > now could be right at that moment ;) > Rob.