"tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:W1Wu8.44923$m41.1...@twister2.libero.it...
>> I think that is hard to say that an effect triggers
> during 3, but is resolved after 5..... but, anyway,
> you insist on that (illogical, though official) point, so be it.
It sounds like you're missing something in the official rule.
There is no "triggering during 3". The whole diablerie (steps
1-5) is one unit. Anything that triggers "when a vampire is
burned" or "when a vampire is diablerized" triggers on the
diablerie as a whole and, naturally, takes effect afterwards.
Anything that needs to be played *before* burning/diablerie is,
conversely, played before step 1.
Basically, the ordering of the steps only matters within the
diablerie itself, so that blood and equipment don't get lost
before the vampire is burned. To the entire "outside world"
all that's visible is: diablerie occurs, a vampire disappears,
the diablerist has more blood, equipment, possibly a skill
card, and might have had a blood hunt referendum called.
From that other message:
> No, Nakova damage, Etrius'soul gem, Husamettin abilities and the like
> (effects triggering upon the burning of a vamp) would occour
> *during" step 3, that is, the *actual* burning, not after step 5 (that is,
> pretty after
> the burning).
But the *result* of Nakova damage would be exactly the same,
since you wouldn't be able to play Freak Drive between the
Amaranth and step 3 even if you allowed diablerie to be
divisible, would you? And honestly I don't think you *should*
be able to.
Josh
can see the logic even if he doesn't like losing RotBR
functionality
"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:a9hfc0$37boo$2...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:W1Wu8.44923$m41.1...@twister2.libero.it...
> >
>
> > I think that is hard to say that an effect triggers
> > during 3, but is resolved after 5..... but, anyway,
> > you insist on that (illogical, though official) point, so be it.
>
> It sounds like you're missing something in the official rule.
that's just what LSJ stated on the previous post, but you
snipped it, so you missed point....
> There is no "triggering during 3".
LSJ said quite the contrary, i'm sorry.
> The whole diablerie (steps
> 1-5) is one unit. Anything that triggers "when a vampire is
> burned" or "when a vampire is diablerized" triggers on the
> diablerie as a whole and, naturally, takes effect afterwards.
??? what ?
do you say that you check the effect of a crimson fury at end of the
diablerie?...
> Anything that needs to be played *before* burning/diablerie is,
> conversely, played before step 1.
>
? As far as i can remember, there's not card reading as you quote above.
We got just "being burned" (Reform body , Ritual of the Bitter Rose, ashes
to ashes)
and "being diablerized" (Crimson Fury).
> From that other message:
>
> > No, Nakova damage, Etrius'soul gem, Husamettin abilities and the like
> > (effects triggering upon the burning of a vamp) would occour
> > *during" step 3, that is, the *actual* burning, not after step 5 (that
is,
> > pretty after
> > the burning).
>
> But the *result* of Nakova damage would be exactly the same,
The same?
Think about a diablerist with votes that goes to torpor due
4 damage: with the divisible thing,
he/she could not cast votes during the following BH referendum (going to
torpor
at step 3).
Pretty similar situation with Aziz, Dammar of Instabul (as a diablerist)
that gets
the status counters *after* the diablerie (and so, after the BH
referendum),
so that i can't benefit of the additional votes in the actual BH referendum
> since you wouldn't be able to play Freak Drive between the
> Amaranth and step 3 even if you allowed diablerie to be
> divisible, would you? And honestly I don't think you *should*
> be able to.
>
I was adressing to the freak drive/cat's guidance timing thing just in
regard of
the timing *after* the undivisible diablerie, whereas "after" it the cached
effects
(nakova, husamettin etc...) that could not interrupt the diablerie come to
happen.
> Josh
>
> can see the logic even if he doesn't like losing RotBR
> functionality
>
I see..:-)
Emiliano
"tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kBXu8.43517$SR5.1...@twister1.libero.it...
>
> "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:a9hfc0$37boo$2...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> > "tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:W1Wu8.44923$m41.1...@twister2.libero.it...
> > >
> >
> > > I think that is hard to say that an effect triggers
> > > during 3, but is resolved after 5..... but, anyway,
> > > you insist on that (illogical, though official) point, so be it.
> >
> > It sounds like you're missing something in the official rule.
>
> that's just what LSJ stated on the previous post, but you
> snipped it, so you missed point....
Wha? Do you mean this?
[LSJ wrote]
> No. They trigger on the burning, which occurs when he diablerizes
> (not before), so the effects occur after the diablerie (since they
> cannot interrupt it).
If so, I read that as saying what I'm saying, not what you're
saying. But maybe I'm biased. :-)
"which occurs when he diablerizes" = "happens during the one-
piece diablerie" = "there is no 3 to trigger on, the whole
thing is what we call 'diablerie'"
> > There is no "triggering during 3".
>
> LSJ said quite the contrary, i'm sorry.
I must have missed the post where he said things triggered on
3 but were delayed till after 5. Can you point me to it?
Google hyperlink or date/time would work.
> > The whole diablerie (steps
> > 1-5) is one unit. Anything that triggers "when a vampire is
> > burned" or "when a vampire is diablerized" triggers on the
> > diablerie as a whole and, naturally, takes effect afterwards.
>
> ??? what ?
> do you say that you check the effect of a crimson fury at end of the
> diablerie?...
No, you have to play Crimson Fury before diablerie, because
you wouldn't have a vampire to play it with after diablerie.
Crimson Fury doesn't trigger at all; it's played. The only
things that can "trigger" on diablerie are effects of cards
already in play.
> > Anything that needs to be played *before* burning/diablerie is,
> > conversely, played before step 1.
>
> ? As far as i can remember, there's not card reading as you quote above.
> We got just "being burned" (Reform body , Ritual of the Bitter Rose, ashes
> to ashes)
> and "being diablerized" (Crimson Fury).
Well, wordings were one of my complaints earlier, yes. :-)
Generally, any card played by the vampire being burned needs
to be played before diablerie, because it can't be played
after. Cards played by the diablerist are probably played
after diablerie, because you're not sure you've succeeded
until then (?). That's certainly true for RotBR, anyway,
which is supposed to be getting a new cardtext explaining its
timing better. (It might have it already, but I usually can't
access the White Wolf site to look.)
> > But the *result* of Nakova damage would be exactly the same,
>
> The same?
> Think about a diablerist with votes that goes to torpor due
> 4 damage: with the divisible thing,
> he/she could not cast votes during the following BH referendum (going to
> torpor
> at step 3).
> Pretty similar situation with Aziz, Dammar of Instabul (as a diablerist)
> that gets
> the status counters *after* the diablerie (and so, after the BH
> referendum),
> so that i can't benefit of the additional votes in the actual BH
referendum
OK, you're right, that is different. On the other hand,
divisible diablerie hurts the diablerist in one case (Nakova
vs a torporized voter) but helps in the other (Aziz). So
it's not like having diablerie divisible makes things either
easier or more consistent.
> I was adressing to the freak drive/cat's guidance timing thing just in
> regard of
> the timing *after* the undivisible diablerie, whereas "after" it the
cached
> effects
> (nakova, husamettin etc...) that could not interrupt the diablerie come to
> happen.
This part would be the same whether or not diablerie is divisible
though - Nakova triggering on burning will result in the same
playability (or unplayability) of these cards in either case,
since if you're in torpor with the one-piece diablerie, you
would have been in torpor after step 3 as well.
Josh
can't stop the rock
> > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> > news:a9hfc0$37boo$2...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de...
> > >
> > > "tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:W1Wu8.44923$m41.1...@twister2.libero.it...
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I think that is hard to say that an effect triggers
> > > > during 3, but is resolved after 5..... but, anyway,
> > > > you insist on that (illogical, though official) point, so be it.
> > >
> > > It sounds like you're missing something in the official rule.
> >
> > that's just what LSJ stated on the previous post, but you
> > snipped it, so you missed point....
>
> Wha? Do you mean this?
>
yes
> [LSJ wrote]
>
> > No. They trigger on the burning, which occurs when he diablerizes
> > (not before), so the effects occur after the diablerie (since they
> > cannot interrupt it).
>
> If so, I read that as saying what I'm saying, not what you're
> saying. But maybe I'm biased. :-)
>
"Since they cannot interrupt it" means just that.
The "burning" effects triggers on 3, but those can't interrupt
the diablerie, so they occours after just after the diablerie is over....
or i'm wrong ? (LSJ ?)
> "which occurs when he diablerizes" = "happens during the one-
> piece diablerie" = "there is no 3 to trigger on, the whole
> thing is what we call 'diablerie'"
>
> > > There is no "triggering during 3".
> >
> > LSJ said quite the contrary, i'm sorry.
>
> I must have missed the post where he said things triggered on
> 3 but were delayed till after 5. Can you point me to it?
> Google hyperlink or date/time would work.
answered above.
> > ??? what ?
> > do you say that you check the effect of a crimson fury at end of the
> > diablerie?...
>
> No, you have to play Crimson Fury before diablerie, because
> you wouldn't have a vampire to play it with after diablerie.
> Crimson Fury doesn't trigger at all; it's played. The only
> things that can "trigger" on diablerie are effects of cards
> already in play.
yes, sorry for the bad english there.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Imho, it does the thing far more consistent just allowing a (permanent)
effect
that triggers upon X (the burning) to occours as X happens, and not lately.
> > I was adressing to the freak drive/cat's guidance timing thing just in
> > regard of
> > the timing *after* the undivisible diablerie, whereas "after" it the
> cached
> > effects
> > (nakova, husamettin etc...) that could not interrupt the diablerie come
to
> > happen.
>
> This part would be the same whether or not diablerie is divisible
> though - Nakova triggering on burning will result in the same
> playability (or unplayability) of these cards in either case,
No, since we would not get a potential cascade of (permanent) effects that
come to happen just after the diablerie is over, in a time segment
where a.m. reaction are now allowed back.
> since if you're in torpor with the one-piece diablerie, you
> would have been in torpor after step 3 as well.
>
Yes, but without the risk of crossing with the playing of
a.m/ reaction timing issues.
Emiliano
tetragrammaton wrote:
> "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio> > [LSJ wrote]
> >
> > > No. They trigger on the burning, which occurs when he diablerizes
> > > (not before), so the effects occur after the diablerie (since they
> > > cannot interrupt it).
> >
> > If so, I read that as saying what I'm saying, not what you're
> > saying. But maybe I'm biased. :-)
>
> "Since they cannot interrupt it" means just that.
> The "burning" effects triggers on 3, but those can't interrupt
> the diablerie, so they occours after just after the diablerie is over....
> or i'm wrong ? (LSJ ?)
It "triggers" on diablerie. The single-unit thing called diablerie.
Since it cannot be played before the diablerie (nothing is burned
then), it is played after.
An effect to be played/used/activated before the burning is
played/used/activated before the diablerie. An effect to be
played/used/activated after the burning (or "trigger by"
the burning) is played/used/activated after the diablerie
(or "triggered by" the diablerie).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3CBC815F...@white-wolf.com...
> tetragrammaton wrote:
> > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> > > [LSJ wrote]
> > >
> > > > No. They trigger on the burning, which occurs when he diablerizes
> > > > (not before), so the effects occur after the diablerie (since they
> > > > cannot interrupt it).
> > >
> > > If so, I read that as saying what I'm saying, not what you're
> > > saying. But maybe I'm biased. :-)
> >
> > "Since they cannot interrupt it" means just that.
> > The "burning" effects triggers on 3, but those can't interrupt
> > the diablerie, so they occours after just after the diablerie is
over....
> > or i'm wrong ? (LSJ ?)
>
> It "triggers" on diablerie. The single-unit thing called diablerie.
> Since it cannot be played before the diablerie (nothing is burned
> then), it is played after.
No much of an answer.....
I was not referring to "play" effects, but rather to check
when permanent effects (nakova, aziz, husamettin etc...)
trigger.
The logic answer, single unit or not, should be that they triggers
on step 3 (burning) , and that they must be resolved later after step 5, by
this "undivisible" "uniterruptable" diablerie.
And this was the way i readed your former aswer about it:
No. They triggers on the burning, which occurs when he diablerizes <step 3>
(not before), so the effects occur after the diablerie <step 5 over>
(since they cannot interrupt it <effects at step 3 triggers, but they cannot
interrupt the diablerie, and so are handled after 5>).
Maybe i was wrong....
Emiliano
<snip>
> --
"tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<gq3v8.49059$m41.1...@twister2.libero.it>...
(snip)
> No. They triggers on the burning, which occurs when he diablerizes <step 3>
> (not before), so the effects occur after the diablerie <step 5 over>
> (since they cannot interrupt it <effects at step 3 triggers, but they cannot
> interrupt the diablerie, and so are handled after 5>).
well probably you should go a little bit further....
Saying your point as correct the question becomes
it triggers on the "burn" part of the step 3?
or maybe on the "ing" part of the step 3?
I suppose the first; but then on the "b" or on the "urn"?
>
> Maybe i was wrong....
>
> Emiliano
>
> <snip>
>
> > --
When our group plays VTES and a diablerie happens we do not move all
equipment, call a BH, get burned, put the equipment in the owner ash
heap.....
Unless you ask to eventually remove a master card from the library and
reshuffle you wait for the BH result to collect everything from the
diablerized vamp or otherwise you burn both vampires and continue to
play
I can understand you would like to have a perfect ruling, i still
think "just play" is better and more funny.
just my one eurocent
Andrea
"andrea" <andrea....@infinito.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:8b06c4c.02041...@posting.google.com...
> "tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<gq3v8.49059$m41.1...@twister2.libero.it>...
<snip>
>
> When our group plays VTES and a diablerie happens we do not move all
> equipment, call a BH, get burned, put the equipment in the owner ash
> heap.....
? If that's true, then it's simply not the official way to handle the
diablerie, i think....
> Unless you ask to eventually remove a master card from the library and
> reshuffle you wait for the BH result to collect everything from the
> diablerized vamp or otherwise you burn both vampires and continue to
> play
? Again, that's not the official way to handle it:
by the time the BH is called, the diablerized vamp
is already in the ash heap, while the diablerist is still active.
> I can understand you would like to have a perfect ruling, i still
> think "just play" is better and more funny.
>
I never asked for perfect rulings, just for logic ones.
Perfect rulings are beyond reality in games where
the golden tenet makes the cards to override the rules....
I just want a logic ruling, something that makes a permanent X to occour
when X triggers,
and not to occour lately (as it happens with the "undivisible" diablerie)
<snip>
Ciao
Emiliano
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002 02:36:56 +0200, "tetragrammaton"
<nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>No much of an answer.....
>I was not referring to "play" effects, but rather to check
>when permanent effects (nakova, aziz, husamettin etc...)
>trigger.
>The logic answer, single unit or not, should be that they triggers
>on step 3 (burning) , and that they must be resolved later after step 5, by
>this "undivisible" "uniterruptable" diablerie.
>And this was the way i readed your former aswer about it:
>
>No. They triggers on the burning, which occurs when he diablerizes <step 3>
>(not before), so the effects occur after the diablerie <step 5 over>
>(since they cannot interrupt it <effects at step 3 triggers, but they cannot
>interrupt the diablerie, and so are handled after 5>).
>
>Maybe i was wrong....
>
>Emiliano
>
><snip>
The problem everyone is having is this.
THERE ARE NO STEPS TO DIABLERIE.
a group of things happen, one of which is a vampire burning, another
is blood moving from the diablarie victim, to the diabolist, another
is the diablorist gaining a skill card, etc.
They are not steps you pass through, they all happen at once.
"Jay Bond" <bo...@home.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:v1oqbuc8g4rvoh94l...@4ax.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
First, please to not shout false things with unnecessary capitals.
Second, if they happen all at once, you could tap, say,
the fragment of book of nod *while* you take away the blood& equipment
from the diablerized vamp and search the library for the master discipline
card, and
have the diablerized vampire to cast votes in the BH referendum, all at
once, as you say.
All things that are illegal and not allowed, of course.
Emiliano
>
"tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<kVcv8.47732$SR5.1...@twister1.libero.it>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Ok
then what about this
diablerie is subatomic
Heisemberg principle works on it
if you know where you are you don't know how fast....(Apologize to
everyone out-there who knows seriously the principle and burned more
than 100o neurons on it)
you see the right trigger-moment, you trigger but.....
the diblerie has already resolved at unimaginable and unmeasurable
quickness
so the trigger effect happens after the resolution of the diablerie
action.
It happens in real life also
You are playing vampire
you see a pack of chips arriving, full, on the table
[TRIGGER]you move your hand to grab one
they are already finished
ciao
Andrea