Why Anarch Questions

Okay here is a quick analysis of the Triple Discipline cards, and why or why not they are worth it. Diversion ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Type(s): Combat Discipline(s): Celerity- Gain one additional strike Fortitude-Prevent up to 2 damage. Thaumaturgy- Strike: ranged. Steal 1 blood with an optional maneuver. This is preeminantly the best anarch triple card, both the celerity and fortitude do at inferior what there non-anarch relatives only do at superior for the same cost. Thaumaturgy does what none of its not thaumaturgical cousins do which is provide a built in maneuver for a strike. Rating:4 stars ========= Improvised Tactics Card Text: Requires a ready anarch. Only usable before range is determined on the first round. A minion can play only 1 Improvised Tactics each combat. aus- During the press step each round, draw one card. Discard down to your hand size afterward. pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R damage each strike. pro- Once each round, this vampire may burn 1 blood to get one maneuver. This card is nowhere nearly as good as Diversion. At aus and pro this card mimics the inferior of each of the respective disciplines but yet not as well (aus-Aura Reading, pro- Quick Meld). The pot is interesting, and is effectively an zip .44magnum without the manuever. The really crippling part is that only one can be used per combat so you cannot use both the manuever and the ranged strike. Rating: 2 stars ========== Skullduggery ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Type(s): Action Discipline(s): Obfuscate (D) Bleed at +1 stealth, with an optional maneuver in the resulting combat if the action is blocked. Presence (D) Bleed at +1 bleed. Protean (D) Bleed at +1 stealth. I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of Computer Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't do with the normal card without becoming anarch (pro is the exception, but really how hard is pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel stealth to generate) Rating: 0 stars ========== Smash and Grab ani-1 stealth action. (D) Burn 2 life from an ally or retainer. dem- (D) Bleed at +1 bleed. pot- +1 stealth action. (D) Burn a location controlled by your prey or predator. This is a corner case card except for the +1 bleed dementation power, which if I was playing with demetation then there are better cards. This card is basically a non-equipment permanants hoser. Permanents are still not that common in play. Rating: 1 star ========= The Mole ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to block. cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity. dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this vampire to cause the action to fail. I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally. Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed. Rating: 5 stars ========= I hope everyone has enjoyed this little tidbit. -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

I think you have missed (or at least understated) the biggest thing about these cards - YOU CAN CHOOSE WHICH DISCIPLINE TO USE. This means that you can play with a much mroe mixed crypt and still be able to use your cards whatever comes up -no pot? play the aus version. I not convinced that this woudl make it actually worth playing a mixed crypt but it certainly makes it easier. > Improvised Tactics > > Card Text: > > Requires a ready anarch. Only usable before range is determined on the first > round. A minion can play only 1 Improvised Tactics each combat. > > aus- During the press step each round, draw one card. Discard down to your > hand size afterward. > pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R damage each > strike. > pro- Once each round, this vampire may burn 1 blood to get one maneuver. pot - would that be a strike requiring potence (for increased strength)? My guess is no as it is a strike allowed by a card already (not in play) and it was playing that card (ImTac) that required potence; not making the strike. -presumably if you played IT with pot and then lost your pot you could continue to use the strike.

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:veec72o...@corp.supernews.com... > The Mole > > ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to > block. > > cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity. > > dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this > vampire > to cause the action to fail. > > I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities > to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally. > Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a > bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed. > > Rating: 5 stars > ========= I've found that the big drawback to the "Mole" is the fact that an anarch must use it, and only when beeing bled by a non-anarch. Once your opponent knows what you are doing its requirements can be a lot harder to meet. -JTP

XZealot wrote: > Skullduggery > > Discipline(s): Obfuscate (D) Bleed at +1 stealth, with an optional > maneuver in the resulting combat if the action is blocked. > Presence (D) Bleed at +1 bleed. > Protean (D) Bleed at +1 stealth. > > I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of Computer > Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't do with the normal > card without becoming anarch (pro is the exception, but really how hard is > pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel stealth to generate) > > Rating: 0 stars > ========== You can't really get the Obf effect with any other single card at inferior. Also, the main advantage of this card is versatility. If you put it in a Obf-Pre or Pro-Pre deck, it allows you chose if you want the +1 bleed or the +1 stealth, depending on what shape your prey is in at the time. That and dropping the stealth even if your prey doesn't attempt to block means it's pretty usefull to avoid hand jam in a S&B deck. I'd rate it 3 stars, at least. > The Mole > > ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to > block. > > cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity. > > dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this > vampire > to cause the action to fail. > > I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities > to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally. > Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a > bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed. > > Rating: 5 stars > ========= The Ani effect does require a block attempt. Also, it can't be used against Anarchs (with the built-in Anarch action that's somewhat significant even if you're not facing 'real' Anarch decks, your predator might decide to turn his key minions into Anarchs if he figures out you're depending on this for defense), and the Cel effect is further limited against Cel minions. The Dom effect is superfluous, most of the time you're better off with a Redirection. 3 stars. Flux

XZealot wrote: :: Skullduggery :: :: :: ------------------------------------------------------------------- :: --------- ---- :: Type(s): Action :: :: :: Discipline(s): Obfuscate (D) Bleed at +1 stealth, with an :: optional maneuver in the resulting combat if the action is blocked. :: Presence (D) Bleed at +1 bleed. :: Protean (D) Bleed at +1 stealth. :: :: I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of :: Computer Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't :: do with the normal card without becoming anarch (pro is the :: exception, but really how hard is pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel :: stealth to generate) :: :: Rating: 0 stars :: ========== Pro version can be great with vampires having inherent +1 bleed but almost no access to stealth like Dylan or Siamese. Obf version is also interesting if you want to play lots of bleed modifiers (like Conditioning or aire of elation) but little or no stealth. The maneuveur is an incentive for not blocking, especially if you play some gun wielding torries. I guess the Pre version is only a makeshift and will be used when you want to cycle it since it is inferior to all the other presence bleed cards. I'd rate it 1 star. :: Smash and Grab :: :: ani-1 stealth action. (D) Burn 2 life from an ally or retainer. :: dem- (D) Bleed at +1 bleed. :: pot- +1 stealth action. (D) Burn a location controlled by your :: prey or predator. :: :: This is a corner case card except for the +1 bleed dementation :: power, which if I was playing with demetation then there are :: better cards. This card is basically a non-equipment permanants :: hoser. Permanents are still not that common in play. :: :: Rating: 1 star :: ========= No. Retainers (some allies) and locations are fare more played that you may think. Being able to get rid of a Jake Washington or a Palatial estate is a great ability indeed. The +1 bleed with dementation sounds crap, but there is no card doing this at inferior dementation, so it fills a gap. rating : 2 stars :: The Mole :: :: ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and :: attempts to block. :: :: cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity. :: :: dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. :: Tap this vampire :: to cause the action to fail. :: :: I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides :: abilities to disciplines that no other card in the game provides :: unconditionally. Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism :: without requiring a block or a bleed, and a bleed reduction to :: zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed. :: :: Rating: 5 stars :: ========= ani - is quite cool, but it compels you to block. Wake sounds better but... If you wanna fight, then the ani version is okay. cel - sounds like a marvel, but +2 intercept would have been better =/ I'd rather play some Pack Tactics, which are better if you pack little intercept. dom - the best application i can see is when the game is down to 2 players, the dom version is never a waste. less enthusiastic than you i'd rate it 3 stars :: I hope everyone has enjoyed this little tidbit. as interesting as always, norm =)

Timlagor wrote: >>Improvised Tactics >> pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R damage each >>strike. > pot - would that be a strike requiring potence (for increased strength)? Yes, just as Ablative Skin is "prevention requiring Fortitude" for effects that produce damage that cannot be prevented by fortitude. > My guess is no as it is a strike allowed by a card already (not in play) > and it was playing that card (ImTac) that required potence; not making the > strike. -presumably if you played IT with pot and then lost your pot you > could continue to use the strike. True. And the strikes are still potence strikes. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: :: Timlagor wrote: :::: Improvised Tactics :::: pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R :::: damage each strike. pot - would that be a strike requiring :::: potence (for increased strength)? :: :: Yes, just as Ablative Skin is "prevention requiring Fortitude" for :: effects that produce damage that cannot be prevented by fortitude. this is something i fail to understand. Once the card is in place, the minion who played it can loose fortitude (due to say, a contested infernal pact) and so it does not require fortitude anymore. Are the counters "fortitude counters" ? ::: My guess is no as it is a strike allowed by a card already (not ::: in play) and it was playing that card (ImTac) that required ::: potence; not making the strike. -presumably if you played IT with ::: pot and then lost your pot you could continue to use the strike. :: :: True. And the strikes are still potence strikes. So a vampire with Hand of conrad can play improvised tactics, which requires potence, suffer Drawing out the beast, and still be able to use those strike that *require* potence ?

reyda wrote: > LSJ wrote: > :: Timlagor wrote: > :::: Improvised Tactics > :::: pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R > :::: damage each strike. pot - would that be a strike requiring > :::: potence (for increased strength)? > :: > :: Yes, just as Ablative Skin is "prevention requiring Fortitude" for > :: effects that produce damage that cannot be prevented by fortitude. > > this is something i fail to understand. Once the card is in place, the > minion who played it can loose fortitude (due to say, a contested infernal > pact) and so it does not require fortitude anymore. The card requires Fortitude to play. The card in play (that requires Fortitude) doesn't require Fortitude to use. See "Ablative" in the online rulings list, and click the link to the cited article archived on Google. > Are the counters > "fortitude counters" ? No. They are ablative counters, by card text. > ::: My guess is no as it is a strike allowed by a card already (not > ::: in play) and it was playing that card (ImTac) that required > ::: potence; not making the strike. -presumably if you played IT with > ::: pot and then lost your pot you could continue to use the strike. > :: > :: True. And the strikes are still potence strikes. > > So a vampire with Hand of conrad can play improvised tactics, which requires > potence, suffer Drawing out the beast, and still be able to use those strike > that *require* potence ? Yes, by card text on Improvised Tactics. Requirements to play cards are only checked when the card is played. Once in play, the requirements to play the card are not checked. Similarly, a vampire with no Obf who equips with a Changeling Skin Mask and plays Marked Path and then loses the CSM can still get stealth from the effect that *requires* obfuscate. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:29:34 -0400, LSJ wrote: > reyda wrote: >> LSJ wrote: >>:: Timlagor wrote: >>:::: Improvised Tactics >>:::: pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R >>:::: damage each strike. pot - would that be a strike requiring >>:::: potence (for increased strength)? >>:: >>:: Yes, just as Ablative Skin is "prevention requiring Fortitude" for >>:: effects that produce damage that cannot be prevented by fortitude. >> >> this is something i fail to understand. Once the card is in place, the >> minion who played it can loose fortitude (due to say, a contested infernal >> pact) and so it does not require fortitude anymore. > > The card requires Fortitude to play. > The card in play (that requires Fortitude) doesn't require Fortitude to use. > See "Ablative" in the online rulings list, and click the link to the cited > article archived on Google. Improvised Tactics is not a card in play however -just a lingering effect. Does that matter?

>> The Mole >> >> ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to >> block. >> >> cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity. >> >> dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this >> vampire >> to cause the action to fail. >> >> I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities >> to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally. >> Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a >> bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed. >> >> Rating: 5 stars >> ========= > > The Ani effect does require a block attempt. I think he meant a prior block attempt (cf Cats' Guidance). > Also, it can't be used against Anarchs (with the built-in Anarch action > that's somewhat significant even if you're not facing 'real' Anarch decks, > your predator might decide to turn his key minions into Anarchs if he > figures out you're depending on this for defense), and the Cel effect is > further limited against Cel minions. The Dom effect is superfluous, most of > the time you're better off with a Redirection. Further to my previous comment. Redirection doesn't offer Intercept or untap and is only usable with Dom. Or from another point of view it's pretty nice in a non Dom deck with dom on some minions to be able to pull out the dom effect if you do have a dom vamp ready.

Timlagor wrote: > Improvised Tactics is not a card in play however -just a lingering effect. > Does that matter? No. It doesn't have to be played a second time to use the lingering effect. [ quoted text not captured ]

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:<veec72o...@corp.supernews.com>... > Diversion <snip> > for the same cost. Thaumaturgy does what none of its not thaumaturgical > cousins do which is provide a built in maneuver for a strike. Take a look at Stone Quills. I don't have cardlist on hand, but I think that one has a tha outferior of 2R + a maneuver. > Rating:4 stars > ========= > > Improvised Tactics <snip> > This card is nowhere nearly as good as Diversion. At aus and pro this card I still like the idea of the potence effect as a counter to maneuvers. (Increased Strength + Imp. Tactics + Undead Strength) in hand means you have the option of 3 to 5 damage strike at close range, or 3 to 4 damage strike at long. > The Mole <snip> > I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities > to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally. > Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a > bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed. Outside of Aranthebes, I think The Mole is the best card in the set. Particularly for Nossies that stand a higher chance of successfully performing a 'go anarch' action.

> The Ani effect does require a block attempt. I think he meant beforehand (as in Cat's Guidance) > Also, it can't be used against Anarchs (with the built-in Anarch action > that's somewhat significant even if you're not facing 'real' Anarch decks, > your predator might decide to turn his key minions into Anarchs if he > figures out you're depending on this for defense), and the Cel effect is > further limited against Cel minions. The Dom effect is superfluous, most of > the time you're better off with a Redirection. Mole is not wallpapered the instant a game hits two players. Since titled vamps can't go anarch without some real effort, it means a player can't make ALL his vampires anarachs unless he's playing weenies. If he's using mid-caps or fatties at all, chanes are he's got a primogen, bishop, etc in the crypt somewhere. And if it comes out, you can at least cycle the card. Would I ever put all my untaps in an ani deck as the Mole? No. But Where I would go 6 Cat's/6 Forced, I would go 4 Cats/4 Forced/4 Moles. It's a good, solid card. Not infallible, but worth the card slot most of the time. Fanboy

>Okay here is a quick analysis of the Triple Discipline cards, and why or why >not they are worth it. I've yet to see a reason why it's worth becoming an anarch to play any of these, though I hold some hope for Diversion. I'd rank them from best to worst: Diversion Skullduggery Smash and Grab The Mole Improvised Tactics While the inferiors of Diversion are comparable to superiors on other cards, it's not that difficult to have superiors in one's crypt. So, I'm not overly impressed with the quality of the effects. The point of the 3-ways seems to be to enable diverse crypts clanwise/disciplinewise. Maybe if there were other reasons, I could see why this might be useful, but I don't. Skullduggery has the advantage over the others in that it fits right into one clan, a clan that has other reasons to go anarch than to play Skullduggery. However, it suffers from lack of synergy with getting votes via Fee Stakes; OTOH, maybe there's a point to Firebrand based vote/bleed decks with Skull. At the bottom, I find Improvised Tactics nigh useless. The Mole suffers from the difficult of playing more than one effect. If only going to use it for Ani or Dom, I'd rather play with other cards and/or not bother wasting effort becoming an anarch.

In message <veec72o...@corp.supernews.com>, "XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> mumbled something about: >Okay here is a quick analysis of the Triple Discipline cards, and why or why >not they are worth it. They're all worth it. In spades. >Diversion >Type(s): Combat > >Rating:4 stars This is an absurdly good card. Additional strike at inferior CEL for free, something you CANNOT GET any other way. Prevent 2 at inferior Fortitude for free, also something you cannot get. And, of course, steal 1 + maneuver for inferior THA. None of these effects are duplicated anywhere else. Just a world-class card, even if you AREN'T playing with more than one of its disciplines. 5 stars out of 5, and a big uNF uNF uNF besides. >Improvised Tactics > >This card is nowhere nearly as good as Diversion. At aus and pro this card >mimics the inferior of each of the respective disciplines but yet not as >well (aus-Aura Reading, pro- Quick Meld). The pot is interesting, and is >effectively an zip .44magnum without the manuever. The really crippling >part is that only one can be used per combat so you cannot use both the >manuever and the ranged strike. Not as good as Diversion, no, because the pro level is visibly inferior to most other maneuvers available to that clan. So that's one level which you would only use in combo with aus or pot, to have the option to switch out. The aus level is interesting -- makes it an excellent "backup" card to use, and you can always pitch it to move your hand around a little. The pot level is awfully damned good. While it's not a .44, it also doesn't cost you 2 pool -- mixed with Diversions, it can be a serious surprise when Jacob Bragg, Anarch, kicks your ass with one of these, a couple Diversion, and a handful of Flashes... also a free card. Let's not leave out the obvious pot/aus tie-in with vampires such as David Morgan, Gengis, etc. 3.5 stars out of 5 for me. >Skullduggery > >I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of Computer >Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't do with the normal >card without becoming anarch (pro is the exception, but really how hard is >pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel stealth to generate) This card is a monster for the Setites. They get +1 stealth and a maneuver OR +1 bleed, depending on what they need at the time. Stack this up with some Aires or some bleed retainers (oh, look, Priestess of Sekhmet) and you're good to go. Dropping obf skill cards on Toreador is a common trick -- this could even pick it up some. Any vampire packing a little obf should love this one to death, especially some of the inherent +bleeders like Suzanne Kadim. The PRO level is easily the weakest -- clans with pro don't typically need the stealth, they need the bleed increase. Messy. 4 stars, and it'll go to 5 after some people win with it. >Smash and Grab > >This is a corner case card except for the +1 bleed dementation power, which >if I was playing with demetation then there are better cards. This card is >basically a non-equipment permanants hoser. Permanents are still not that >common in play. Have to disagree with the last -- bird retainers and bleed retainers are still one of the most common things to see in the game, typically in 2 out of your 3 rounds. Almost no retainer can survive the ANI level, and you can even use this to kick pesky War Ghouls and Renegade Garou in the nuts... and this card should kill a Garou, who perpetually hovers at 2 blood. +1 stealth Arson at pot? Sign me up, kids. Dear god, locations are all OVER these days. Gotta get rid of 'em. The +1 bleed for Dementation is probably the weakest. Not much dem/ani or dem/pot running around out there, so why would you ever use this card instead of good old Kindred Spirits, which gains you a pool? 3 stars for the card, 1 extra star for the +1 stealth Arson. 4 stars total. >The Mole > >I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities >to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally. >Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a >bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed. Massively goonriffic card. I wake, I play the Mole, your bleed fails. How strong is THIS for clans who only have like 1 vampire with Dominate, who can't be doing all the bleed bouncing? The only saving grace is that if you're stuck in front of Mole decks, you've always got the option to go cardless Anarch yourself and stop the card from even being played -- but it could still hurt. 5 stars, of course. -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

"> I think he meant beforehand (as in Cat's Guidance) > > > Also, it can't be used against Anarchs (with the built-in Anarch action > > that's somewhat significant even if you're not facing 'real' Anarch decks, > > your predator might decide to turn his key minions into Anarchs if he > > figures out you're depending on this for defense), and the Cel effect is > > further limited against Cel minions. The Dom effect is superfluous, most of > > the time you're better off with a Redirection. > > Mole is not wallpapered the instant a game hits two players. > > Since titled vamps can't go anarch without some real effort, it means > a player can't make ALL his vampires anarachs unless he's playing > weenies. If he's using mid-caps or fatties at all, chanes are he's > got a primogen, bishop, etc in the crypt somewhere. And if it comes > out, you can at least cycle the card. > You miss a dot. You can only use the Mole if acting minion is not anarch and HAS NO CELERITY. You'll be amased as how many vamps around there got inferior cel. Arika, comes to my mind. Almost all toreadors have. Even those pesky Anton (fact i did realise this weekend, while playing a tournament, and trying to block him equipping with the femur of tomler.) > Would I ever put all my untaps in an ani deck as the Mole? No. But > Where I would go 6 Cat's/6 Forced, I would go 4 Cats/4 Forced/4 Moles. > It's a good, solid card. Not infallible, but worth the card slot > most of the time. > I agree, but no more than 6-4, depending on you play ani or not. If it's solely for the cel, no more than 4. Smiling Tom > Fanboy

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> escribió en el mensaje news:20030611162549...@mb-m20.aol.com... > >Okay here is a quick analysis of the Triple Discipline cards, and why or why > >not they are worth it. > > I've yet to see a reason why it's worth becoming an anarch to play any of > these, though I hold some hope for Diversion. > > I'd rank them from best to worst: > Diversion > Skullduggery > Smash and Grab > The Mole > Improvised Tactics You forgot all permanents related to being anarch. The nice ones.. Anarch free press Anarch railroad Status Perfectus Hospital food Stolen police cruiser And disciplinless/votes Car bomb Anarch salon Firebrand > While the inferiors of Diversion are comparable to superiors on other cards, > it's not that difficult to have superiors in one's crypt. So, I'm not overly > impressed with the quality of the effects. > The idea is to pack small packs with only inferior disciplines. You gain efficiency whit pseudo-weenie decks, that can do OTHER thinks rather than horde-bleeding. Well, not that much. And diversion is extraordinary, if you have something to do with that accessory card, as it does no real-serious damage. Packing it instead of pursuits in a weenie cel-gun deck allows you to lower the crypt. Playing with some skill cards, you can also prevent for the same price.

> You miss a dot. You can only use the Mole if acting minion is not anarch and > HAS NO CELERITY. You'll be amased as how many vamps around there got > inferior cel. Arika, comes to my mind. Almost all toreadors have. Even those > pesky Anton (fact i did realise this weekend, while playing a tournament, > and trying to block him equipping with the femur of tomler.) The celerity only applies to using the celerity facet (intercept) of the card. Celerity won't stop you untapping (ani).

> Would I ever put all my untaps in an ani deck as the Mole? No. But > Where I would go 6 Cat's/6 Forced, I would go 4 Cats/4 Forced/4 Moles. > It's a good, solid card. Not infallible, but worth the card slot > most of the time. Do you not use Rats or Dogs at all?

In article <1bt4vpjb10tmj.uflx5rlnrh2e$.d...@40tude.net>, Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >Do you not use Rats or Dogs at all? Too cornercase to be considered a 'real' untap. gomi -- Individually, I love you all with affection unspeakable; but, collectively, I look upon you with a disgust that amounts to absolute detestation. - Gilbert and Sullivan, 'Pirates of Penzance'

In article <bc85ok$1k3$2...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>, Smiling Tom, The Anarch <t...@almadrava.net> wrote: > >"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> escribió en el mensaje >news:20030611162549...@mb-m20.aol.com... >> >Okay here is a quick analysis of the Triple Discipline cards, and why or >why >> >not they are worth it. >You forgot all permanents related to being anarch. The nice ones.. >Anarch free press >Anarch railroad >Status Perfectus >Hospital food >Stolen police cruiser > >And disciplinless/votes >Car bomb >Anarch salon >Firebrand None of which are triple discipline cards. While Improvised Tactics' [aus] and [pro] lines are pretty much garbage, the [pot] line is pretty darn nice, so I don't quite share Ian's opinion of it. Weenie pot/cel Diverting Tactics might well go somewhere. Well, barring the total lack of response to SCE, which would require one to fold in DOM or AUS for Thoughts Betrayed or Telepathic Tracking (CEL for Psyche would be deprecated as you lose the continuing effect of the Tactics, but it does gain you crypt efficiency) [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <9e4fevgptb78d55eb...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >In message <veec72o...@corp.supernews.com>, >"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> mumbled something about: > >>Okay here is a quick analysis of the Triple Discipline cards, and why or why >>not they are worth it. > >They're all worth it. In spades. one man's spade is another man's trowel, I suppose. >>Diversion >>Type(s): Combat >> >>Rating:4 stars > >This is an absurdly good card. Additional strike at inferior CEL for >free, something you CANNOT GET any other way. Prevent 2 at inferior >Fortitude for free, also something you cannot get. And, of course, >steal 1 + maneuver for inferior THA. >None of these effects are duplicated anywhere else. Just a world-class >card, even if you AREN'T playing with more than one of its disciplines. > >5 stars out of 5, and a big uNF uNF uNF besides. Just because they're effects unavailable elsewhere is no reason to jizz your pants over them. Are they GOOD effects? a free additional strike at inferior cel is definitely strong. prevent 2 damage at inferior for for free is ok, just not huge. steal 1 + maneuver is pretty unimpressive. may as well use wind dance and be done with it, unless you're using Ardan Lane with Drum of Xipe Totec -- then you could go places. but the tha-level alone is pretty enh. So I'd agree with the 4-star rating. Solid, good card, but no UNF. >>Improvised Tactics [discussed elsewhere in thread] >3.5 stars out of 5 for me. sounds about right. Maybe a flat 3 from me. >>Skullduggery >> >>I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of Computer >>Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't do with the normal >>card without becoming anarch (pro is the exception, but really how hard is >>pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel stealth to generate) >The PRO level is easily the weakest -- clans with pro don't typically >need the stealth, they need the bleed increase. Messy. I have to disagree here -- protean didn't have any free stealth, and this is more cyclable than an action modifier to boot. Free stealth is a big deal when everything else you do costs a blood. >4 stars, and it'll go to 5 after some people win with it. 4, tops. Solid, but not OMGSOHOT. >>Smash and Grab [snip analysis] >3 stars for the card, 1 extra star for the +1 stealth Arson. >4 stars total. agreed. >>The Mole >> >>I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities >>to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally. >>Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a >>bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed. > >Massively goonriffic card. I wake, I play the Mole, your bleed fails. >How strong is THIS for clans who only have like 1 vampire with Dominate, >who can't be doing all the bleed bouncing? > >The only saving grace is that if you're stuck in front of Mole decks, >you've always got the option to go cardless Anarch yourself and stop the >card from even being played -- but it could still hurt. > >5 stars, of course. Dude. The Mole is pretty assy. Many decks (anything but a serious titled vote deck) will find the time to take the inherent anarch action, turning all your Moles into deadspace, and the Celery line is further limited -- and there's a lot of random Celery spread out on random vampires. Further, the dom line doesn't work with wake, as it says 'tap to cause the action to fail', which isn't (a) playing a reaction card or (b) attempting to block, which are the only two things Wake/Forced lets you do. The [ani] line is pretty solid. Strong when it works, but cornercase like all get-out. 2 stars, tops. [ quoted text not captured ]

"evil_poot_cat" <evilp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:cf597231.03061...@posting.google.com... > "XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:<veec72o...@corp.supernews.com>... > > Diversion > <snip> > > for the same cost. Thaumaturgy does what none of its not thaumaturgical > > cousins do which is provide a built in maneuver for a strike. > > Take a look at Stone Quills. I don't have cardlist on hand, but I > think that one has a tha outferior of 2R + a maneuver. Nope, the outferior is only 2R and at a cost of 1 blood > > Rating:4 stars > > ========= > > > > Improvised Tactics > <snip> > > This card is nowhere nearly as good as Diversion. At aus and pro this card > > I still like the idea of the potence effect as a counter to maneuvers. > (Increased Strength + Imp. Tactics + Undead Strength) in hand means > you have the option of 3 to 5 damage strike at close range, or 3 to 4 > damage strike at long. The potence angle of the card is quite nice. > > The Mole > <snip> > > I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities > > to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally. > > Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a > > bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed. > > Outside of Aranthebes, I think The Mole is the best card in the set. > Particularly for Nossies that stand a higher chance of successfully > performing a 'go anarch' action. It is a good card for sure, but I don't know if it tops Gather. I would say it is probably the best common in the set. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <veec72o...@corp.supernews.com>, x_zealot@cox- internet.com says... > Discipline(s): > Celerity- Gain one additional strike > Fortitude-Prevent up to 2 damage. > Thaumaturgy- Strike: ranged. Steal 1 blood with an optional maneuver. > Rating:4 stars I think this one's good enough for a 5 star rating. 2 abilities that are duplicated elsewhere but not for free/inferior, and an ability for Thaumaturgy weenies that's even more important than Theft (the ability to get the hell out of close range). > Improvised Tactics > Requires a ready anarch. Only usable before range is determined on the first > round. A minion can play only 1 Improvised Tactics each combat. > aus- During the press step each round, draw one card. Discard down to your > hand size afterward. > pot- At long range, each round, this minion may strike for 2R damage each > strike. > pro- Once each round, this vampire may burn 1 blood to get one maneuver. > This card is nowhere nearly as good as Diversion. At aus and pro this card > mimics the inferior of each of the respective disciplines but yet not as > well (aus-Aura Reading, pro- Quick Meld). Umm... Aura Reading at inferior looks at your opponent's hand. Your analysis overlooks the fact that these abilities are useable *each round*. While combats tend to only last a round or two, this card could easily be combined with Trap to interesting effect. Need to cycle a bunch of cards out of the way during a combat? Use the aus ability. Got a bunch of ranged strikes to throw? Use the pro ability. Got a bunch of maneuvers? .44 magnum for free it is. Rating: 4 stars. > Skullduggery > Type(s): Action > > Discipline(s): Obfuscate (D) Bleed at +1 stealth, with an optional > maneuver in the resulting combat if the action is blocked. > Presence (D) Bleed at +1 bleed. > Protean (D) Bleed at +1 stealth. > > I can't figure out why I would ever play with this card instead of Computer > Hacking. None of these supply anything that I couldn't do with the normal > card without becoming anarch (pro is the exception, but really how hard is > pro, Gangrel, or !Gangrel stealth to generate) Umm... Obfuscate getting an optional maneuver is not something to be taken too lightly. None of Protean's stealth is free. The Presence ability is weak compared to what's already available, but there's a fair amount of vamps with obf/pre, which gives you a lot of versatility when working with this card. Rating: 3.5 > Smash and Grab > > ani-1 stealth action. (D) Burn 2 life from an ally or retainer. > dem- (D) Bleed at +1 bleed. > pot- +1 stealth action. (D) Burn a location controlled by your prey or > predator. > > This is a corner case card except for the +1 bleed dementation power, which > if I was playing with demetation then there are better cards. This card is > basically a non-equipment permanants hoser. Permanents are still not that > common in play. ...? Hunting Grounds are not that common where you play? Or Raven Spy/Mr. Winthrop/Tasha/JS/Muddles? The dem ability is the weakest of the three, but there's also no dementation action card that bleeds for +1 at inferior. Rating: 3 > The Mole > ani- Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to > block. > cel- +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity. > > dom- Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this > vampire > to cause the action to fail. > > I actually have very high expectations for this card. It provides abilities > to disciplines that no other card in the game provides unconditionally. > Intercept for celerity, untap for animalism without requiring a block or a > bleed, and a bleed reduction to zero, regardless of the amount of the bleed. > > Rating: 5 stars Agreed on all counts. -- -Snapcase

>> Take a look at Stone Quills. I don't have cardlist on hand, but I >> think that one has a tha outferior of 2R + a maneuver. > > Nope, the outferior is only 2R and at a cost of 1 blood OUTferior???????????????????????????????????/ Yuck! what a horrible 'word'. What is it supposed to mean anyway?

[ quoted text not captured ] >OUTferior???????????????????????????????????/ [ quoted text not captured ] The discipline on the card that does not have a superior version. This only refers to Bloodlines multi-discipline cards that have a Bloodlines discipline with inferior & superior options, and another discipline option that is not for a Bloodlines specific discipline. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

> >> >Okay here is a quick analysis of the Triple Discipline cards, and why or > >why > >> >not they are worth it. > > >You forgot all permanents related to being anarch. The nice ones.. > >Anarch free press > >Anarch railroad > >Status Perfectus > >Hospital food > >Stolen police cruiser > > > >And disciplinless/votes > >Car bomb > >Anarch salon > >Firebrand > > None of which are triple discipline cards. > Ok, I misread that line. But this cards has to be accounted on the balance of "why anarch" question. > While Improvised Tactics' [aus] and [pro] lines are pretty much garbage, > the [pot] line is pretty darn nice, so I don't quite share Ian's opinion > of it. Weenie pot/cel Diverting Tactics might well go somewhere. Well, > barring the total lack of response to SCE, which would require one to fold > in DOM or AUS for Thoughts Betrayed or Telepathic Tracking (CEL for > Psyche would be deprecated as you lose the continuing effect of the > Tactics, but it does gain you crypt efficiency) > Status Perfectus is your friend. Disciplinless, permanent coordinated attack. Shall prove enough. [ quoted text not captured ]

> >5 stars, of course. > > Dude. The Mole is pretty assy. Many decks (anything but a serious titled > vote deck) will find the time to take the inherent anarch action, turning > all your Moles into deadspace, and the Celery line is further limited -- > and there's a lot of random Celery spread out on random vampires. Further, > the dom line doesn't work with wake, as it says 'tap to cause the action to > fail', which isn't (a) playing a reaction card or (b) attempting to block, > which are the only two things Wake/Forced lets you do. The [ani] line is > pretty solid. > > Strong when it works, but cornercase like all get-out. > > 2 stars, tops. You are wrong, you can play wake and the mole at Dom level just as you can play wake & car bomb or wake & redirection. Wake allows you to play reaction cards, and the mole is. [ quoted text not captured ]

Smiling Tom, The Anarch wrote: > You are wrong, you can play wake and the mole at Dom level just as you can > play wake & car bomb or wake & redirection. Wake allows you to play reaction > cards, and the mole is. Wake won't help for Mole at [dom], since the effect requires you to "tap to" use it. Contrast Redirection and Car Bomb, which merely have "Tap this vampire" as part of the effect. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <jbsgev0m4frtkuvoe...@4ax.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] As a historical note, the thread http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=Pine.SOL.3.90.1011213164241.12586A-100000%40bohm covers the genesis of the term. It looks like we have Heikki Poso to blame for 'outferior'. Those wacky Finns. Greyseer, of blessed memory, suggested 'crap', while our very own Reyda suggested 'cycle' or 'the cycle level'. LSJ listed 'fallback', 'secondary,' 'off-,' 'sub-,' or 'alternate' as possibilities. These days, I like 'comedy option,' as in 'Infection's comedy option lets vampires with only inferior fortitude prevent all strikes, like superior Skin of Steel, for only 1 more blood.' If you read the whole thread you can catch me dissing Darkling Trickery -- and that's just one of the many times I've been hella wrong about stuff. gomi 'dissing' and 'hella' included to up the 'not a word' count [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:29:33 +0100, Timlagor wrote: >Do you not use Rats or Dogs at all? A more elaborate explanation than Gomi's: Rats and Dogs are only useful vs. Bleeds. All the other cards listed are more widely useful. There is pretty much no way I would put Rats or Dogs in virtually any deck, unless I was only planning to see S&B decks at the table. Or tap & bleed, I guess. Xian

On 11 Jun 2003 20:07:56 -0400, Gomi wrote: (in response to Derek, whose thoughts have been snipped) >Just because they're effects unavailable elsewhere is no reason to jizz >your pants over them. Are they GOOD effects? a free additional strike at With you so far. >inferior cel is definitely strong. prevent 2 damage at inferior for for free >is ok, just not huge. Agreed and agreed. > steal 1 + maneuver is pretty unimpressive. may as >well use wind dance and be done with it, Here is where the crack-smoking begins. You're looking at it all wrong. It's not steal 1 + manuever, it's: MANEUVER + steal 1. Note that prior to this, all of the THA maneuver effects come at THA, not tha. Getting the maneuver alone at inferior is worthwhile. The completely unnecessary bonus strike is hella good. Sure, it's not, well, "Steal 2," but it's close, and like you were going to do anything else at long range. And hey, if you were using tha, you were only stealing 1 anyway. >So I'd agree with the 4-star rating. Solid, good card, but no UNF. 4 stars, added UNF. [The Mole] >Strong when it works, but cornercase like all get-out. > >2 stars, tops. Agreed on the cornercaseness, but 3 stars. Xian

Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk writes: >I think you have missed (or at least >understated) the biggest thing about >these cards - YOU CAN CHOOSE WHICH >DISCIPLINE TO USE. This means that you >can play with a much mroe mixed >crypt and still be able to use your cards >whatever comes up -no pot? play the aus version. >I not convinced that this would make it >actually worth playing a mixed >crypt but it certainly makes it easier. The principle works, but not with only 5 mixed discipline cards. At most, a deck could use 2 or 3 reliably. That's not nearly enough for a deck. Diversion is the only really good card anyway; the others aren't substantially better than what you can get from disciplinary cards. Plus, there are no action modifiers. If there were 20 multi cards, it might be a different story. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson