yes, i've looked at everything i could find on these subjects,
especially with the word lsj attached. yes, i know he's on vacation,
and i wouldn't begrudge him that. so, if i can get some other learned
viewpoints, it would be appreciated.
the meanest one: SACRIFICE
1. so, can i look to my left and see ranjan rishi sitting there, and
call sacrifice with my (mata + fortitude card) AS a sabbat ventrue,
naming ranjan?? if so, it looks like pto/justicar can have company as
soon as you throw a discipline card on her. i think it is NOT, because
the sacrifice doesn't actually "require" the clan, only the sect, so it
doesn't give mata the opportunity to play it as a ventrue.
2. next question has to do with rules of equipment cards that requires
a clan that are already in play. i couldn't find any restriction on
who may equip or be equipped once a card is in play, only to play it.
so not only can mata enter combat via nose of the hound, disguised
weapon/sword of nuln/disguised weapon/femur of toomler, freak drive,
rave one weapon each to ali kar and skidmark, .... BUT once she has
them, ali kar can just equip with the femur from her?? i thought i
remembered that not working at some point, but please let me know.
3. create gargoyle. this is sort of a "why bother when there are
waters of duat" question, but, you would choose either tremere or
!trem! as mata's clan for the action, and you'd get a slave to that
clan, that was Independent (mata's sect) by card text of create
gargoyle?
4. hierophant and a lot of others following a similar
requirement/named-in-text template. since mata is playing it as a
follower of set, she can name herself as the follower of set in the
referendum. if it passes, it goes "on the chosen vampire" and later
references only "the vampire with this card;" so it still affects her
with 1 extra vote and blockers burning a blood?
5. and this one will require lsj... ventrue investment. i read the
other thread where this was discussed. the question was samson and
mata somehow being controlled by the same methuselah, mata in torpor.
"you (and she) may play cards that require a (sect and/or) clan {such
as ventrue investment} as if she were a member of that required (sect
and/or) clan." parentheses obviously added. so you play ventrue
investment (which you can only play because samson is ready) as if she
were a member of that required clan. 2 counters. the official ruling
was the opposite of this, only 1 counter. not trying to be difficult,
but i see the request for further clarification as valid. maybe her
text needs another look, although i don't see an easy fix for this... i
can see the methuselah saying validly "with samson ready, i play
ventrue investment as if mata is a member of that required clan."
seems utterly consistant grammatically with the card text.
thanks to all, and hope you had a good vaca, lsj, when you get back and
read this...
spore
SPORE wrote:
> yes, i've looked at everything i could find on these subjects,
> especially with the word lsj attached. yes, i know he's on vacation,
> and i wouldn't begrudge him that. so, if i can get some other learned
> viewpoints, it would be appreciated.
OK, I will give this a try... :-)
First, the relevant card text:
Mata Hari
[...]
Independent. Red List: Mata Hari has 2 votes (titled). You and she may
play cards that require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that
required sect and/or clan.
> the meanest one: SACRIFICE
> 1. so, can i look to my left and see ranjan rishi sitting there, and
> call sacrifice with my (mata + fortitude card) AS a sabbat ventrue,
> naming ranjan?? if so, it looks like pto/justicar can have company as
> soon as you throw a discipline card on her. i think it is NOT, because
> the sacrifice doesn't actually "require" the clan, only the sect, so it
> doesn't give mata the opportunity to play it as a ventrue.
You are correct with your assumption:
Sacrifice does require a Sabbat vampire. It does not require any clan
to be played.
So Mata Hari's special ability treats her as a Sabbat Ravnos for the
purposes of this card.
> 2. next question has to do with rules of equipment cards that requires
> a clan that are already in play. i couldn't find any restriction on
> who may equip or be equipped once a card is in play, only to play it.
This is almost correct - usually, a clan requirement for equipment is
only of interest when this equipment is brought into play [1.6.1.,
Requirements for Playing Cards].
Note that there are in fact some cards which have card text stating
that they work only for vampires of a certain clan, though - e.g.,
Sword of Judgement.
> so not only can mata enter combat via nose of the hound, disguised
> weapon/sword of nuln/disguised weapon/femur of toomler, freak drive,
> rave one weapon each to ali kar and skidmark, .... BUT once she has
> them, ali kar can just equip with the femur from her?? i thought i
> remembered that not working at some point, but please let me know.
This is allowable. The clan requirement needs only be fulfilled when
the card is played.
A vampire not from the required clan can later get the card by
equipping from another minion.
> 3. create gargoyle. this is sort of a "why bother when there are
> waters of duat" question, but, you would choose either tremere or
> !trem! as mata's clan for the action, and you'd get a slave to that
> clan, that was Independent (mata's sect) by card text of create
> gargoyle?
Yes.
> 4. hierophant and a lot of others following a similar
> requirement/named-in-text template. since mata is playing it as a
> follower of set, she can name herself as the follower of set in the
> referendum. if it passes, it goes "on the chosen vampire" and later
> references only "the vampire with this card;" so it still affects her
> with 1 extra vote and blockers burning a blood?
Yes.
> 5. and this one will require lsj...
Well, then no more work here for me... :-)
Greetings,
Hardy
SPORE wrote:
> 2. next question has to do with rules of equipment cards that requires
> a clan that are already in play. i couldn't find any restriction on
> who may equip or be equipped once a card is in play, only to play it.
> so not only can mata enter combat via nose of the hound, disguised
> weapon/sword of nuln/disguised weapon/femur of toomler, freak drive,
> rave one weapon each to ali kar and skidmark, .... BUT once she has
> them, ali kar can just equip with the femur from her?? i thought i
> remembered that not working at some point, but please let me know.
Mata Hari cannot use Disguise Weapon to bring a piece of non-Ravnos
weaponry into play. Her special only affects cards that are played in
the normal fashion. A Disguised Sword of Nuln or a Charming
Lobby/Heirophant is not possible, since she fails to meet the
requirements of the "abnormally" played card.
> 5. and this one will require lsj... ventrue investment. i read the
> other thread where this was discussed. the question was samson and
> mata somehow being controlled by the same methuselah, mata in torpor.
> "you (and she) may play cards that require a (sect and/or) clan {such
> as ventrue investment} as if she were a member of that required (sect
> and/or) clan." parentheses obviously added. so you play ventrue
> investment (which you can only play because samson is ready) as if she
> were a member of that required clan. 2 counters. the official ruling
> was the opposite of this, only 1 counter. not trying to be difficult,
> but i see the request for further clarification as valid. maybe her
> text needs another look, although i don't see an easy fix for this... i
> can see the methuselah saying validly "with samson ready, i play
> ventrue investment as if mata is a member of that required clan."
> seems utterly consistant grammatically with the card text.
Barring the grouping issues of using Samson and Mata Hari, if Mata Hari
were ready you could have two counters on the Ventrue Investment. A
vampire has to be ready to meet the requirements of a Master card, so
you can't play a Ventrue Investment without a ready !Ventrue. Since
Mata Hari is in torpor, she cannot be the vampire that allows you to
legally play the Ventrue Investment, therefore the Venture Investment
sees Mata Hari for what she really is, a Ravnos.
"Karl Schaefer" <k.sch...@icarnegie.com> wrote in message
news:1141064882....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> 5. and this one will require lsj... ventrue investment. i read the
>> other thread where this was discussed. the question was samson and
>> mata somehow being controlled by the same methuselah, mata in torpor.
>> "you (and she) may play cards that require a (sect and/or) clan {such
>> as ventrue investment} as if she were a member of that required (sect
>> and/or) clan." parentheses obviously added. so you play ventrue
>> investment (which you can only play because samson is ready) as if she
>> were a member of that required clan. 2 counters. the official ruling
>> was the opposite of this, only 1 counter. not trying to be difficult,
>> but i see the request for further clarification as valid. maybe her
>> text needs another look, although i don't see an easy fix for this... i
>> can see the methuselah saying validly "with samson ready, i play
>> ventrue investment as if mata is a member of that required clan."
>> seems utterly consistant grammatically with the card text.> Barring the grouping issues of using Samson and Mata Hari,
Mata used two Corruption cards on an opponent's Samson... ;-)
> if Mata Hari
> were ready you could have two counters on the Ventrue Investment. A
> vampire has to be ready to meet the requirements of a Master card, so
> you can't play a Ventrue Investment without a ready !Ventrue.
The card requires a !Ventrue, but Samson fulfills that requirement. Card
text on Ventrue Investment doesn't require that the other !Ventrue be ready;
from monger.vekn.org:
[ quoted text not captured ]
great point, karl. you saved me some trouble. will have to find a new
way to get all the toys out...
john spore
i wrote: > so not only can mata enter combat via nose of the hound,
disguised
> weapon/sword of nuln/disguised weapon/femur of toomler, freak drive,
> rave one weapon each to ali kar and skidmark, .... BUT once she has
> them, ali kar can just equip with the femur from her?? i thought i
> remembered that not working at some point, but please let me know.
karl schaefer wrote: Mata Hari cannot use Disguise Weapon to bring a
[ quoted text not captured ]
"David Zopf" <david...@snetx.net> wrote in message
news:u_HMf.1796$at2....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
F$&%(*(ng message editor sent my message when I hit <return>
from monger:
"Move one blood counter from the blood bank to this card for each Ventrue
antitribu you control. You may use a master phase action to move 1 blood
from this card to your pool. Burn this card when the last blood counter on
it is removed."
The question is whether a player can invoke Mata's special from torpor, not
in the sense of fulfilling a clan requirement (no torporized vampire can do
that), but in the sense of using her phrase "YOU and she may play cards that
require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required sect and/or
clan.", for the YOU part of "YOU and she"... i.e. merely using her special
to count Mata as one of a number of !Ventrue you control... I think its a
valid use of her special ability, and one which wasn't answered directly by
LSJ in the original thread (in all fairness to LSJ, someone other than the
Original Poster side-tracked him away from the John Newquist's question)...
By everything I've seen, Mata doesn't need to be ready for a player to
invoke her speical ability.
DZ
AW
David Zopf wrote:
> from monger:
> "Move one blood counter from the blood bank to this card for each Ventrue
> antitribu you control. You may use a master phase action to move 1 blood
> from this card to your pool. Burn this card when the last blood counter on
> it is removed."
>
> The question is whether a player can invoke Mata's special from torpor, not
> in the sense of fulfilling a clan requirement (no torporized vampire can do
> that), but in the sense of using her phrase "YOU and she may play cards that
> require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required sect and/or
> clan.", for the YOU part of "YOU and she"... i.e. merely using her special
> to count Mata as one of a number of !Ventrue you control... I think its a
> valid use of her special ability, and one which wasn't answered directly by
> LSJ in the original thread (in all fairness to LSJ, someone other than the
> Original Poster side-tracked him away from the John Newquist's question)...
> By everything I've seen, Mata doesn't need to be ready for a player to
> invoke her speical ability.
She can use her ability from torpor. For instance, she could use
Recure of the Homeland to leave torpor for free. However, this does
not mean you can get around other requirements for playing a card. The
Ventrue Investment is still looking for a ready !Venture. In torpor,
Mata Hari can be a !Ventrue, but not a ready one, and therefore cannot
pretend to be part of the !Ventrue when playing Ventrue Investment when
she is in torpor because the card is only looking for a ready vampire
to meet its requirements and since it won't see Mata as a !Ventrue when
played, it can't count Mata among the !Ventrue you control.
David Zopf wrote:
> The question is whether a player can invoke Mata's special from torpor, not
> in the sense of fulfilling a clan requirement (no torporized vampire can do
> that), but in the sense of using her phrase "YOU and she may play cards that
> require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required sect and/or
> clan.", for the YOU part of "YOU and she"... i.e. merely using her special
> to count Mata as one of a number of !Ventrue you control... I think its a
> valid use of her special ability, and one which wasn't answered directly by
> LSJ in the original thread (in all fairness to LSJ, someone other than the
> Original Poster side-tracked him away from the John Newquist's question)...
> By everything I've seen, Mata doesn't need to be ready for a player to
> invoke her speical ability.
The answer was "No," as I recall it. I'm not absolutely certain, but
I've since assumed that Mata Hari's text should be read as only usable
when Mata Hari is being used to meet the requirements of that card. It
wasn't entirely clear if that was his intent, but I declined to press
the issue, because a) it seems unlikely to matter in the vast array of
things, and b) that man had enough work answering the Sonja Blue, Mata
Hari, and Keminitri questions at the time.
But now I may as well ask it directly, even though he won't get to it
for a while:
Is it correct to assume that Mata Hari's ability (and others with
similar wording) can only apply to cards that Mata Hari would otherwise
be able to meet the requirements for, even though her text is
ambiguous? If so, would it be wise to update the text to something
like: "You and Mata Hari may play cards that require a clan and/or sect
as if Mata Hari met that clan and/or sect requirement"?
It's possible that text was already considered and rejected for one
reason or another, but it seems clearer to me.
John
"David Zopf" <david...@snetx.net> wrote in message
news:7mIMf.1797$Hp2....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
>> "Karl Schaefer" <k.sch...@icarnegie.com> wrote in message
>> news:1141064882....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...>>>> 5. and this one will require lsj... ventrue investment. i read the
>>>> other thread where this was discussed. the question was samson and
>>>> mata somehow being controlled by the same methuselah, mata in torpor.
>>>> "you (and she) may play cards that require a (sect and/or) clan {such
>>>> as ventrue investment} as if she were a member of that required (sect
>>>> and/or) clan." parentheses obviously added. so you play ventrue
>>>> investment (which you can only play because samson is ready) as if she
>>>> were a member of that required clan. 2 counters. the official ruling
>>>> was the opposite of this, only 1 counter. not trying to be difficult,
>>>> but i see the request for further clarification as valid. maybe her
>>>> text needs another look, although i don't see an easy fix for this... i
>>>> can see the methuselah saying validly "with samson ready, i play
>>>> ventrue investment as if mata is a member of that required clan."
>>>> seems utterly consistant grammatically with the card text.
...
>>> if Mata Hari
>>> were ready you could have two counters on the Ventrue Investment. A
>>> vampire has to be ready to meet the requirements of a Master card, so
>>> you can't play a Ventrue Investment without a ready !Ventrue.>>
>> The card requires a !Ventrue, but Samson fulfills that requirement. Card text on Ventrue Investment doesn't require that the
>> other !Ventrue be ready;
...
> from monger:
> "Move one blood counter from the blood bank to this card for each Ventrue
> antitribu you control. You may use a master phase action to move 1 blood
> from this card to your pool. Burn this card when the last blood counter on
> it is removed."
>
> The question is whether a player can invoke Mata's special from torpor, not
> in the sense of fulfilling a clan requirement (no torporized vampire can do
> that), but in the sense of using her phrase "YOU and she may play cards that
> require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required sect and/or
> clan.", for the YOU part of "YOU and she"... i.e. merely using her special
> to count Mata as one of a number of !Ventrue you control... I think its a
> valid use of her special ability, and one which wasn't answered directly by
> LSJ in the original thread (in all fairness to LSJ, someone other than the
> Original Poster side-tracked him away from the John Newquist's question)...
> By everything I've seen, Mata doesn't need to be ready for a player to
> invoke her speical ability.
Mata doesn't need to be ready to for a player to invoke her special ability
per se. For instance, I've used Recur of the Homeland to get Mata out of
torpor before and that's fine. But to use Ventrue Investment, you need to
have a ready !Ventrue in order to play it. Since it's not Mata who is
specifically allowing you to play Ventrue Investment in the example being
cited, her special ability makes no difference for purposes of the effects
of other cards and therefore she is considered Ravnos, not !Ventrue. (If
Mata were ready, I guess it would be the acting player's choice whether to
play it using her ability - and thus get two counters - or not - and thus
get only one.)
This issue comes up a lot when allies are playing cards "as a vampire".
Apparently, the card being played using the special ability of the minion
only regards that minion as being some different type of minion at the
moment it's played and only for the purpose of that card's immediate effect.
For the purposes of any other effects, not created through that minion's
ability or created through that minion's ability but at some previous point
in time, the minion is regarded as its true type. So in this case, when
Ventrue Investment is played not using Mata's ability, Mata is an
independent Ravnos, nothing else.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/ca15d28071ec0f41/df05a3cb5b42fe94?lnk=st&q='play+card+as+a'+group%3Arec.games.trading-cards.jyhad+author%3ALSJ&rnum=4&hl=en#df05a3cb5b42fe94
Fred
"Karl Schaefer" <k.sch...@icarnegie.com> wrote in message
news:1141075739.9...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
It can. Ventrue Investment counts the number of !Ventrue you control, _not_
the number which are ready... Again, in this scenario;
1. Samson is ready (fulfilling the clan requirement for playing Ventrue
Investment).
2. Ventrue Investment checks for the number of !Ventrue you _control_
3. Mata Hari's special operates from torpor, allowing YOU (the player) to
play cards (such as Ventrue Investment) as if Mata were a !Ventrue...
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
<jnew...@difsol.com> wrote in message
news:1141079365.3...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> David Zopf wrote:>> The question is whether a player can invoke Mata's special from torpor,
>> not
>> in the sense of fulfilling a clan requirement (no torporized vampire can
>> do
>> that), but in the sense of using her phrase "YOU and she may play cards
>> that
>> require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required sect and/or
>> clan.", for the YOU part of "YOU and she"... i.e. merely using her
>> special
>> to count Mata as one of a number of !Ventrue you control... I think its
>> a
>> valid use of her special ability, and one which wasn't answered directly
>> by
>> LSJ in the original thread (in all fairness to LSJ, someone other than
>> the
>> Original Poster side-tracked him away from the John Newquist's
>> question)...
>> By everything I've seen, Mata doesn't need to be ready for a player to
>> invoke her speical ability.>
> The answer was "No," as I recall it.
I read the whole thread, and found no direct response to your question from
LSJ... Here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/9ae7e5ae4fb503c9?dmode=source
LSJ replies to Daneel, but he mentions Mata needing to be ready to "fulfill
the clan requirement" for playing a master card, which wasn't what the
question was about...
Later, a minor thread-jack by "carl" got LSJ to post a link to this thread
in response:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/11099869a914f58d?hl=en
But this ruling treats situations where the card played has a later or
lasting "in play" effect that references "this !Ventrue", for example.
Unless I'm reading Ventrue Investment wrong, it names/checks for your number
of !Venture "as it is played", so this, too, doesn't address the specific
scenario at hand. (...or does it? Perhaps VI is put into play, and _then_
checks the table for your number of controlled !Ventrue, putting the
"!Ventrue head count" past the timing window for using Mata's special to
count her as a !Ventrue. *shrug* damned ambiguity of the English language
again... :-)
> I'm not absolutely certain, but
> I've since assumed that Mata Hari's text should be read as only usable
> when Mata Hari is being used to meet the requirements of that card. It
> wasn't entirely clear if that was his intent, but I declined to press
> the issue, because a) it seems unlikely to matter in the vast array of
> things, and b) that man had enough work answering the Sonja Blue, Mata
> Hari, and Keminitri questions at the time.
>
Aye, its a niche problem, but we all strive for better understanding, right?
;-)
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
"David Zopf" <david...@snetx.net> wrote in message
news:Li%Mf.2631$Ff4...@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
> "Karl Schaefer" <k.sch...@icarnegie.com> wrote in message
> news:1141075739.9...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...>> In torpor,
>> Mata Hari can be a !Ventrue, but not a ready one, and therefore cannot
>> pretend to be part of the !Ventrue when playing Ventrue Investment when
>> she is in torpor because the card is only looking for a ready vampire
>> to meet its requirements and since it won't see Mata as a !Ventrue when
>> played, it can't count Mata among the !Ventrue you control.>
> It can. Ventrue Investment counts the number of !Ventrue you control, _not_
> the number which are ready...
Sure. But Mata Hari is a Ravnos.
> Again, in this scenario;
>
> 1. Samson is ready (fulfilling the clan requirement for playing Ventrue
> Investment).
> 2. Ventrue Investment checks for the number of !Ventrue you _control_
> 3. Mata Hari's special operates from torpor,
No, it doesn't. Mata Hari's special only operates when it allows you to
play a card. It does not allow you to count her as any being of any
clan and any time for any purpose. Since the card being played requires an
!Ventrue not in torpor, her special can not be in effect, therefore Mata Hari
is counted as a Ravnos.
Fred
"Fred Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
news:C10Nf.7568$z82.1356@fed1read07...
> Mata Hari's special only operates when it allows you to
> play a card.
I must have been missing that piece, then. I never saw that as a salient
point in LSJ's posts (admittedly, Mata generated a whole bunch of thread
'white noise' which I didn't have the fortitude to read). Damned game is
starting to require extensive "how to" guides for individual cards now...
Mata needs one, a Google search yields too much white noise for me to gather
the above.
You wouldn't happen to have a thread reference, for where the above
assertion came from?
> It does not allow you to count her as any being of any
> clan and any time for any purpose.
As I elaboraed on in my response to John, I don't assert anything that
broad. I understand that her special only effects the "while playing"
timing of cards, but without the above little extra tidbit, the "you and she
may play cards as if" parses out to me like you could count her, so long as
the counting is done "while playing" the card in question. (Counter
example; I don't assert that Mata could count for any clan for the purposes
of a Consanguineous Boon, since that card checks for clan count at the
resolution of the referendum/action, but VI doesn't follow this pattern.)
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
"David Zopf" <david...@snetx.net> wrote in message
news:Mf0Nf.2634$E_3....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
> "Fred Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:C10Nf.7568$z82.1356@fed1read07...>> Mata Hari's special only operates when it allows you to
>> play a card.>
> I must have been missing that piece, then. I never saw that as a salient
> point in LSJ's posts (admittedly, Mata generated a whole bunch of thread
> 'white noise' which I didn't have the fortitude to read).
...
> You wouldn't happen to have a thread reference, for where the above
> assertion came from?
I guess I never saw him say exactly that either, no. I was just reasoning
from everything else I know about "play-cards-as-a" effects. After all, would
you assume that Ghouled Street Thug would get the stealth bonus from inferior
Psychic Veil just because he is allowed to play Potence cards "as a vampire"?
He isn't playing a potence card as a vampire, another minion is playing an
obfuscate card so he isn't a vampire, he's an ally. By the same token, I'm
saying Mata Hari isn't allowing you to play the Ventrue Investment card as
if she were a Ventrue Antitribu, therefore, she's a Ravnos. Thus, I believe
her ability wouldn't allow you change her clan at any moment by simply deeming
it so; she has to be the one allowing you to play the Ventrue Investment or
her ability doesn't matter.
>> It does not allow you to count her as any being of any>> clan at any time for any purpose.>
> As I elaboraed on in my response to John, I don't assert anything that
> broad. I understand that her special only effects the "while playing"
> timing of cards, but without the above little extra tidbit, the "you and she
> may play cards as if" parses out to me like you could count her, so long as
> the counting is done "while playing" the card in question.
I don't know. I suppose it might be handled differently based on the
notion that it's the Methuselah playing the card, not the actual vampire
so the effect might be interpreted differently. I'm pretty sure that isn't
the intent of the text but if LSJ didn't see a reason to mind that,
perhaps the coincidences involved (the Methuselah treating Mata Hari as
a Ventrue antitribu for purposes of counting counters, not for meeting
the requirements of the card) might mean that you could be right. I
can't find any other relavent examples with which to compare this, so
I'll back off and just state that this is my opinion, until I hear
otherwise.
> (Counter
> example; I don't assert that Mata could count for any clan for the purposes
> of a Consanguineous Boon, since that card checks for clan count at the
> resolution of the referendum/action, but VI doesn't follow this pattern.)
I agree that Mata Hari wouldn't count but not for the reason you give. I
believe "play-cards-as-a" effects work fine for the resolution of a
political action card that gets played in line with the requirements of
the "play-as-a" effect. The delay between playing the card and resolving
the effect aren't significant. In this case, however, if Mata Hari is not
actually playing the card, her special doesn't kick in. And even if
she is, it still doesn't kick in because it specifically requires that
the card being played "requires a sect and/or clan". Consanguineous
Boon does not.
Fred
Fred Scott wrote:
> I don't know. I suppose it might be handled differently based on the
> notion that it's the Methuselah playing the card, not the actual vampire
> so the effect might be interpreted differently. I'm pretty sure that isn't
> the intent of the text but if LSJ didn't see a reason to mind that,
> perhaps the coincidences involved (the Methuselah treating Mata Hari as
> a Ventrue antitribu for purposes of counting counters, not for meeting
> the requirements of the card) might mean that you could be right. I
> can't find any other relavent examples with which to compare this, so
> I'll back off and just state that this is my opinion, until I hear
> otherwise.
Played by the methuselah is exactly the point of contention. Minions
can only play cards that they meet the requirements for. Methuselahs
generally only care that at least one of their ready minions meets the
requirement for non-minion cards they play. So Mata Hari obviously
can't play minion cards that require a ready whatever when in torpor
because she doesn't meet the requirements. But her controller may
otherwise meet the requirements of master cards that require a clan,
and her text states that I may play cards that require a clan as if she
were a member of that clan without specifying that she herself must
meet the other requirements - so if another minion does meet those
requirements, a literal reading suggests that her controller has the
option of treating her as a member of that clan for the play of that
master.
You're almost certainly right about the intent of the text, which is
why I brought up the possibility of clarifying the text in my earlier
post.
Based on the current card base, I'm not sure it matters. Only a couple
of things like Ventrue Investment and Acquired Ventrue Assets even look
at non-ready minions of a certain clan, and adding one extra counter to
them when Mata's in torpor doesn't seem to powerful by any stretch.
This may not be the case for future cards, though.
John
In message <Mf0Nf.2634$E_3....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>, David Zopf
<david...@snetx.net> writes:
>"Fred Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
>news:C10Nf.7568$z82.1356@fed1read07...>> Mata Hari's special only operates when it allows you to
>> play a card.>
>I must have been missing that piece, then. I never saw that as a salient
>point in LSJ's posts (admittedly, Mata generated a whole bunch of thread
>'white noise' which I didn't have the fortitude to read). Damned game is
>starting to require extensive "how to" guides for individual cards now...
>Mata needs one, a Google search yields too much white noise for me to gather
>the above.
>
>You wouldn't happen to have a thread reference, for where the above
>assertion came from?
This one will probably help:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/9ae7e5
ae4fb503c9>
About playing Ventrue Investment when Mata Hari is in torpor. She's not
meeting the requirement, so she's a Ravnos.
LSJ also appears to confirm it in <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.ga
mes.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/e606ab772af72b29> in that he doesn't correct
jnewquist's interpretation that Mata Hari's text only applies if she's
the one being used to meet the requirement. (Which, in torpor, she
can't be.)
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:ijMshh6e4VBEFw0$@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> In message <Mf0Nf.2634$E_3....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>, David Zopf
> <david...@snetx.net> writes:>>"Fred Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
>>news:C10Nf.7568$z82.1356@fed1read07...>>> Mata Hari's special only operates when it allows you to
>>> play a card.>>
>>I must have been missing that piece, then. I never saw that as a salient
>>point in LSJ's posts (admittedly, Mata generated a whole bunch of thread
>>'white noise' which I didn't have the fortitude to read). Damned game is
>>starting to require extensive "how to" guides for individual cards now...
>>Mata needs one, a Google search yields too much white noise for me to
>>gather
>>the above.
>>
>>You wouldn't happen to have a thread reference, for where the above
>>assertion came from?>
> This one will probably help:
>
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/9ae7e5
> ae4fb503c9>
>
> About playing Ventrue Investment when Mata Hari is in torpor. She's not
> meeting the requirement, so she's a Ravnos.
Hi James,
Yeah, I cited that one up-thread, myself. (To borrow a legal term) I found
it non-responsive, because the quesiton at hand wasn't about Mata being used
to fulfill the clan requirement of playing a card at all, it was a request
for clarification about the limits are to the "YOU" portion of "you and she"
in Mata's special.
> LSJ also appears to confirm it in <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.ga
> mes.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/e606ab772af72b29> in that he doesn't correct
> jnewquist's interpretation that Mata Hari's text only applies if she's
> the one being used to meet the requirement. (Which, in torpor, she
> can't be.)
Lack of correction, aye. Its the reason I'm requesting a more affirmative
confirmation now...
DZ
AW
About playing Ventrue Investment when Mata Hari is in torpor. She's
not
meeting the requirement, so she's a Ravnos.
LSJ also appears to confirm it in
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.ga
mes.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/e606ab772af72b29> in that he doesn't
correct
jnewquist's interpretation that Mata Hari's text only applies if she's
the one being used to meet the requirement. (Which, in torpor, she
can't be.)
--
James Coup
at no place in mata's text does it say that she must be the vampire
meeting the requirement for her special to function. this is the crux
of the original question, and as dzopf and jnewquist obviously
understood my question (above.) this is why a clarifying sentence on
mata or some such is desirable. the intention seems obvious both from
the ruling on this AND on the non-correction of jnewquist's
interpretation that you cite. as dzopf said, this is why we hope for
clarification. as it stands, it is perfectly logical to alternatively
interpret her text in this situation as: you are playing a card that
requires a clan as if she is a member of that clan. a clarification,
or text like:
You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan as if she
were of that required sect and/or clan. if mata's special is not used
to fulfill the requirement of the card being played, she is treated as
her own current sect and/or clan.
...yes, it's clunky and i don't like it. but it's clear. that's why i
asked...
-john
In message <1141253088.4...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
SPORE <spore...@hotmail.com> writes:
>as it stands, it is perfectly logical to alternatively
>interpret her text in this situation as: you are playing a card that
>requires a clan as if she is a member of that clan. a clarification,
>or text like:
In such instances (two or more logical interpretations), a ruling is
typically used rather than errata.
[ quoted text not captured ]
IMHO (I have been wrong so often recently I added the H)
There seems to be no logical requirement why you must be invoking the
special in order to play a card you couldn't otherwise play as oposed
to invoking it to add to the effect of a card you can already play.
So in the !Ventrue Investment example there is nothing on the card that
says you couldn't count her as another !Ventrue for the purpose of the
card effect even if you already have a number of ready !Ventrue and can
play the card.
Basically "You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan
as if she were of that required sect and/or clan." can be read as "You
may play cards that require a clan as if she were of that required
clan." by simply removing the redundant sections. So you can play a
!Ventrue investment as if she were a !Ventrue. It does not have a
clause saying "provided that you can not already play this card" or
"she must be the vampire through whom the card is played".
I would have thought.
jibbajibba wrote:
> Basically "You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan
> as if she were of that required sect and/or clan." can be read as "You
> may play cards that require a clan as if she were of that required
> clan." by simply removing the redundant sections. So you can play a
> !Ventrue investment as if she were a !Ventrue. It does not have a
> clause saying "provided that you can not already play this card" or
> "she must be the vampire through whom the card is played".
OK. Everyone seems to be missing the point.
If Mata Hari were your only ready vampire, could you play Ventrue
Investment?
Yes and it would have one counter.
If Mata Hari were your only vampire and were in torpor, could you play
Ventrue Investment?
No because Ventrue Investment can only be played when you have a ready
!Ventrue.
If Mata Hari and another !Ventrue were ready, could you play Ventrue
Investment?
Yes and it would have one or two counters (your choice). You could
choose Mata Hari to be the vampire that allowed you to play Ventrue
Investment and in so doing the card will see her as !Ventrue and count
her along with you other !Ventrue (giving two counters). You could
choose not to use Mata Hari's special to play the card and in this case
the card will not see Mata as an !Ventrue, but as a Ravnos, and thus
you would gain only one counter.
If Mata Hari is in torpor and you have another ready !Ventrue, can you
play Ventrue Investment?
Yes and it would have only one counter. Since Mata Hari cannot allow
you to play Ventrue Investment (because she is not ready, a requirement
of the card) the Ventrue Investment will never see Mata Hari as an
!Ventrue. Thus, when the number of !Ventrue you control is totaled,
you will place one counter on the Ventrue Investment.
"Karl Schaefer" <k.sch...@icarnegie.com> wrote in message
news:1141327123....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> jibbajibba wrote:>> Basically "You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan
>> as if she were of that required sect and/or clan." can be read as "You
>> may play cards that require a clan as if she were of that required
>> clan." by simply removing the redundant sections. So you can play a
>> !Ventrue investment as if she were a !Ventrue. It does not have a
>> clause saying "provided that you can not already play this card" or
>> "she must be the vampire through whom the card is played".> OK. Everyone seems to be missing the point.
>
Are you sure?
> If Mata Hari is in torpor and you have another ready !Ventrue, can you
> play Ventrue Investment?
> Yes and it would have only one counter. Since Mata Hari cannot allow
> you to play Ventrue Investment (because she is not ready, a requirement
> of the card)
Ventrue Investment requires one ready !Ventrue to be playable. Once that
criterium is fulfilled, Ventrue Investment gains counters equal to the
number of !Ventrue you CONTROL. It counts both your ready !Venture, and
your torpored !Ventrue. The question remains unanswered by your reply.
> the Ventrue Investment will never see Mata Hari as an
> !Ventrue.
Why not? Mata's special allows me to play cards as if Mata were a !Ventrue.
Mata's special works from torpor. I am playing Ventrue Investment (enabled
by another ready !Ventrue) as if Mata were a torporized !Ventrue. Barring
additional rulings, I'm legally following all relevant card texts.
DZ
AW
I HATE Google. Grrrrrr! This is the fourth rewrite. Hopefully, this
will post correctly.
David Zopf wrote:
> "Karl Schaefer" <k.sch...@icarnegie.com> wrote in message
> news:1141327123....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > jibbajibba wrote:
> >> Basically "You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan
> >> as if she were of that required sect and/or clan." can be read as "You
> >> may play cards that require a clan as if she were of that required
> >> clan." by simply removing the redundant sections. So you can play a
> >> !Ventrue investment as if she were a !Ventrue. It does not have a
> >> clause saying "provided that you can not already play this card" or
> >> "she must be the vampire through whom the card is played".
> > OK. Everyone seems to be missing the point.
> >
> Are you sure?
Yes.
> > If Mata Hari is in torpor and you have another ready !Ventrue, can you
> > play Ventrue Investment?
> > Yes and it would have only one counter. Since Mata Hari cannot allow
> > you to play Ventrue Investment (because she is not ready, a requirement
> > of the card)
>
> Ventrue Investment requires one ready !Ventrue to be playable. Once that
> criterium is fulfilled, Ventrue Investment gains counters equal to the
> number of !Ventrue you CONTROL. It counts both your ready !Venture, and
> your torpored !Ventrue. The question remains unanswered by your reply.
>
> > the Ventrue Investment will never see Mata Hari as an
> > !Ventrue.
>
> Why not? Mata's special allows me to play cards as if Mata were a !Ventrue.
> Mata's special works from torpor. I am playing Ventrue Investment (enabled
> by another ready !Ventrue) as if Mata were a torporized !Ventrue. Barring
> additional rulings, I'm legally following all relevant card texts.
If Mata Hari's special allows you to play a card, then the card refers
to Mata Hari as necessary for her or you to have played the card. So,
if you play Ventrue Investment, using Mata Hari as the vampire to
allowed you to play the card, then the Ventrue Investment will see her
as an !Ventrue. But, Ventrue Investment has two requirements: being an
!Ventrue and being ready. A Mata Hari in torpor can meet the first,
but not the second requirement. Therefore, you cannot use Mata Hari to
bring the Ventrue Investment into play. Because Mata Hari was not used
to bring the card into play, the card can only see her for what she
truly is (a Ravnos).
"Karl Schaefer" <k.sch...@icarnegie.com> wrote in message
news:1141335972.9...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> David Zopf wrote:>> Ventrue Investment requires one ready !Ventrue to be playable. Once that
>> criterium is fulfilled, Ventrue Investment gains counters equal to the
>> number of !Ventrue you CONTROL. It counts both your ready !Venture, and
>> your torpored !Ventrue. The question remains unanswered by your reply.
>>
>> > the Ventrue Investment will never see Mata Hari as an !Ventrue.
>>
>> Why not? Mata's special allows me to play cards as if Mata were a !Ventrue.
>> Mata's special works from torpor. I am playing Ventrue Investment (enabled
>> by another ready !Ventrue) as if Mata were a torporized !Ventrue. Barring
>> additional rulings, I'm legally following all relevant card texts.> If Mata Hari's special allows you to play a card, then the card refers
> to Mata Hari as necessary for her or you to have played the card. So,
> if you play Ventrue Investment, using Mata Hari as the vampire to
> allowed you to play the card, then the Ventrue Investment will see her
> as an !Ventrue. But, Ventrue Investment has two requirements: being an
> !Ventrue and being ready. A Mata Hari in torpor can meet the first,
> but not the second requirement. Therefore, you cannot use Mata Hari to
> bring the Ventrue Investment into play. Because Mata Hari was not used
> to bring the card into play, the card can only see her for what she
> truly is (a Ravnos).
I think David's point is, why is it necessary that Mata Hari be the
minion that allows you to play Ventrue Investment in order to allow
her card text to affect the play of the card? If it's a minion
card, the reason is that obviously that Mata Hari can't play a card
if she can't meet its requirements. But if it's a master card, her
text simply says _the methuselah_ may play master cards as if she
belonged any particular clan. It does not strictly say that it
requires that Mata Hari be the minion who allowed the methuselah to
play the card in order to play the master card that way; it just gives
the Methuselah an option when playing a card. LSJ may want us to infer
this requirement but I couldn't find anywhere he's said anything like
that. Nor have I found a rule that says it either. If you can, be
my guest.
Fred
A second time, since Google ate the first.
David Zopf wrote:
> "Karl Schaefer" <k.sch...@icarnegie.com> wrote in message
> news:1141327123....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > jibbajibba wrote:
> >> Basically "You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan
> >> as if she were of that required sect and/or clan." can be read as "You
> >> may play cards that require a clan as if she were of that required
> >> clan." by simply removing the redundant sections. So you can play a
> >> !Ventrue investment as if she were a !Ventrue. It does not have a
> >> clause saying "provided that you can not already play this card" or
> >> "she must be the vampire through whom the card is played".
> > OK. Everyone seems to be missing the point.
> >
> Are you sure?
Yes.
> > If Mata Hari is in torpor and you have another ready !Ventrue, can you
> > play Ventrue Investment?
> > Yes and it would have only one counter. Since Mata Hari cannot allow
> > you to play Ventrue Investment (because she is not ready, a requirement
> > of the card)
>
> Ventrue Investment requires one ready !Ventrue to be playable. Once that
> criterium is fulfilled, Ventrue Investment gains counters equal to the
> number of !Ventrue you CONTROL. It counts both your ready !Venture, and
> your torpored !Ventrue. The question remains unanswered by your reply.
>
> > the Ventrue Investment will never see Mata Hari as an
> > !Ventrue.
>
> Why not? Mata's special allows me to play cards as if Mata were a !Ventrue.
> Mata's special works from torpor. I am playing Ventrue Investment (enabled
> by another ready !Ventrue) as if Mata were a torporized !Ventrue. Barring
> additional rulings, I'm legally following all relevant card texts.
You must "use" Mata Hari to bring the card into play for the played
card to see Mata Hari as anything other than what she truly is (a
Ravnos). This means Mata Hari must meet all of the other requirements
of the card. For Ventrue Investement there are two requirements: being
!Ventrue and being ready. A Mata Hari in torpor can fufill the first,
but not the second requirement of the Ventrue Investment. Therefore,
you cannot use Mata Hari to bring the Ventrue Investment into play.
For Mata Hari to be treated as an !Ventrue by a card that requires one,
she would have to be the vampire that "allowed the play to happen"
which, being in torpor in our example, is not possible. Therefore,
Ventrue Investment will not see her as an !Ventrue.
David Zopf wrote:
> "Karl Schaefer" <k.sch...@icarnegie.com> wrote in message
> news:1141327123....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > jibbajibba wrote:
> >> Basically "You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan
> >> as if she were of that required sect and/or clan." can be read as "You
> >> may play cards that require a clan as if she were of that required
> >> clan." by simply removing the redundant sections. So you can play a
> >> !Ventrue investment as if she were a !Ventrue. It does not have a
> >> clause saying "provided that you can not already play this card" or
> >> "she must be the vampire through whom the card is played".
> > OK. Everyone seems to be missing the point.
> >
> Are you sure?
Yes.
> > If Mata Hari is in torpor and you have another ready !Ventrue, can you
> > play Ventrue Investment?
> > Yes and it would have only one counter. Since Mata Hari cannot allow
> > you to play Ventrue Investment (because she is not ready, a requirement
> > of the card)
>
> Ventrue Investment requires one ready !Ventrue to be playable. Once that
> criterium is fulfilled, Ventrue Investment gains counters equal to the
> number of !Ventrue you CONTROL. It counts both your ready !Venture, and
> your torpored !Ventrue. The question remains unanswered by your reply.
>
> > the Ventrue Investment will never see Mata Hari as an
> > !Ventrue.
>
> Why not? Mata's special allows me to play cards as if Mata were a !Ventrue.
> Mata's special works from torpor. I am playing Ventrue Investment (enabled
> by another ready !Ventrue) as if Mata were a torporized !Ventrue. Barring
> additional rulings, I'm legally following all relevant card texts.
Since you snipped other important parts of my response, such as the
corollary examples. A card played by you can see Mata Hari as the
thing relevant to the card in question, if you USE Mata Hari to bring
the card into play. In this case with Ventrue Investment, since Mata
Hari is in torpor, you cannot use her ability to bring the card into
play because one of the cards requirements is readyness (which Mata
Hari cannot meet), and therefore the card CANNOT see her as anything
[ quoted text not captured ]
Karl Schaefer wrote:
> A card played by you can see Mata Hari as the
> thing relevant to the card in question, if you USE Mata Hari to bring
> the card into play.
This does not come from Mata Hari's text. Her text states that "You and
Mata Hari may play cards that require a clan and/or sect as if she were
a member of that clan or sect."
>From which you can parse out "You ... may play cards that require a
clan .. as if [Mata Hari] were a member of that clan..."
While this may in fact be meant to *imply* that you must be using this
text to meet the requirements of a card in order to activate this text
for that card, it does not *state* this. It states that "You," a
methuselah, may play a certain class of cards (those that require a
clan) as if Mata Hari belonged to that clan.
Hence the request for an official ruling/clarification.
John
[ quoted text not captured ]
Check this out:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/e5662370a1a0257c?hl=fi&
Here's the relavent text from that LSJ post:
Cards a minion plays as something treat him as that something (for
purposes of playing the card). But once in play, the minion is no
longer playing the card, so is no longer playing the card as something
else, so is no longer treated as anything other than what the minion
actually is.
jnew...@difsol.com wrote:
> Karl Schaefer wrote:
> > A card played by you can see Mata Hari as the
> > thing relevant to the card in question, if you USE Mata Hari to bring
> > the card into play.
>
> This does not come from Mata Hari's text. Her text states that "You and
> Mata Hari may play cards that require a clan and/or sect as if she were
> a member of that clan or sect."
Actually, yes, it does. Note that Mata Hari's text allows you to PLAY
cards that require a clan and/or sect, etc. It doesn't say anything
about what the effects of that card will be, though LSJ has ruled that
a vampire who allows you to play cards that require a clan or sect
other than that possessed by the vampire in question counts as that
clan or sect until the end of the card being played. However, if you're
not playing a card as a direct result of such a vampire's special, the
vampire counts as its default clan and sect.
> >From which you can parse out "You ... may play cards that require a
> clan .. as if [Mata Hari] were a member of that clan..."
>
> While this may in fact be meant to *imply* that you must be using this
> text to meet the requirements of a card in order to activate this text
> for that card, it does not *state* this. It states that "You," a
> methuselah, may play a certain class of cards (those that require a
> clan) as if Mata Hari belonged to that clan.
Right. You may play them. However, if Mata Hari doesn't meet other
requirements of playing that card (being in torpor disallows the
playing of master cards that would otherwise require her, in this
example), she doesn't count as a member of that clan or sect while the
card is being played.
Really, I think that the confusion over this issue stems from a verbal
shorthand that's probably been in use since 1994. It's a shorthand that
was totally valid until the printing of Mata Hari, Tatiana Stepanova
and Kemintiri (ADV). However, it's never been technically correct. The
best way to illustrate this shorthand is through the use of an example:
I have four Ventrue in play. One of them happens to be Horatio Ballard.
During my master phase, I play Ventrue Headquarters. I ask if there are
any Suddens, and if not I pay my pool and put the Ventrue HQ into play.
After finishing up any other master phase effects, I move on to my
minion phase.
Technically speaking, this is incorrect play. I should have had to
announce which vampire allowed me to play Ventrue Headquarters, since
it requires a ready Ventrue to play. However, since everyone can see
that I've got at least one ready Ventrue and it doesn't make a
difference as to which vampire I used to put the HQ into play, we've
all gotten used to not announcing which it is. With the three imposter
vampires from KMW, though, it's suddenly become important which vampire
is allowing you to play which card, if only for those three.
For this example, in which Mata Hari is in torpor and Blackhorse Tanner
(a different !Ventrue than Samson, but it'll get around the grouping
issue) is not, it matters quite a bit when it comes to the playing of
Ventrue Investment. Karl didn't go through this explicitly when
delineating what happens when Mata is or isn't ready and you play this
card, so I will.
1) Mata is ready and so is Blackhorse. When you play the Investment,
you can either announce that you're using Blackhorse to play it
(because he's a !Ventrue) or Mata (because of her special). If you
choose Blackhorse, the Investment only gets one counter; when it checks
for !Ventrue you control, it sees Mata as a Ravnos. If you choose Mata,
she is considered a !Ventrue as far as the Investment is concerned
until the card enters play, so you get two counters.
2) Mata is in torpor, but Blackhorse is ready. When you play the
Investment, it can only get one counter. Since Mata is in torpor, she
cannot allow you to play master cards that require a given clan (since
all master cards with a clan requirement need a ready vampire of that
clan, not any vampire of that clan). So when the Investment checks for
how many !Ventrue you control, it sees Mata as a Ravnos, exactly as in
the example above if you chose Blackhorse to play the card.
Does this make more sense?
John Eno
invisibl...@gmail.com wrote:
> jnew...@difsol.com wrote:
> > Karl Schaefer wrote:
> > > A card played by you can see Mata Hari as the
> > > thing relevant to the card in question, if you USE Mata Hari to bring
> > > the card into play.
> >
> > This does not come from Mata Hari's text. Her text states that "You and
> > Mata Hari may play cards that require a clan and/or sect as if she were
> > a member of that clan or sect."
>
> Actually, yes, it does. Note that Mata Hari's text allows you to PLAY
> cards that require a clan and/or sect, etc. It doesn't say anything
> about what the effects of that card will be,
Yes it does. It says that I may play that card as if Mata Hari were a
member of that clan. What it most specifically does NOT say is that it
is only usable when Mata Hari
LSJ has ruled that
> a vampire who allows you to play cards that require a clan or sect
> other than that possessed by the vampire in question counts as that
> clan or sect until the end of the card being played. However, if you're
> not playing a card as a direct result of such a vampire's special, the
> vampire counts as its default clan and sect.
>
> > >From which you can parse out "You ... may play cards that require a
> > clan .. as if [Mata Hari] were a member of that clan..."
> >
> > While this may in fact be meant to *imply* that you must be using this
> > text to meet the requirements of a card in order to activate this text
> > for that card, it does not *state* this. It states that "You," a
> > methuselah, may play a certain class of cards (those that require a
> > clan) as if Mata Hari belonged to that clan.
>
> Right. You may play them. However, if Mata Hari doesn't meet other
> requirements of playing that card (being in torpor disallows the
> playing of master cards that would otherwise require her, in this
> example), she doesn't count as a member of that clan or sect while the
> card is being played.
Her text does not say that. Her text says that I may play cards as if
she were a member of a clan that she is not. It does not state that I
must also play the card as if she were the member of that clan that
meets the ready minion requirement of that card.
[ quoted text not captured ]
It all makes perfect sense. It's still not what Mata Hari's text
actually says. It makes no mention of only being usable to meet the
requirements of the cards I play, as opposed to being more general.
> John Eno
[ quoted text not captured ]
Certainly. So how does this ruling apply to non-minion cards that
minions are not playing? Approximately the same way, except that since
the minion isn't playing the card, there's no reason to assume that
THAT minion must meet the other requirements of the card, so long as
the card can be otherwise legally played by the methuselah.
It's pretty clear that minions must meet the requirements of cards
minions play, and that methuselahs must meet the requirements of cards
methuselahs play, but it's in no way clear that minions can only use
their card text when they are being used to meet the requirements of
cards a methuselah plays.
Have we decreed that Baldesar Rosellini can only reduce the cost of
locations that require Giovanni?
A general ruling that "Minions can only pretend to be x when they're
used to meet the requirements of a card that requires x" is all I need
to shut me up. But it's not out there yet.
John
>It all makes perfect sense. It's still not what Mata Hari's text
>actually says. It makes no mention of only being usable to meet the
>requirements of the cards I play, as opposed to being more general.
I agree entirely. If the text were saying
'If you chose to play card through Mata Hari, you may treat her as if
... etc'
but it doesn't.
LSJ's example seems to be more about subsequent to the card being
played , so she doesn't remain tapped after a Toreador Grand Ball but
equally can't get any benefit from a Sword of Judgement. Doesn't really
cover the whole issue at hand which is that, from the text, you seem to
be able to invoke her special whenever you play a card even if that
invokation is only to increase the effect of the card and not just to
enable the card to be played.
I would prefer to use it as written simply because it simplifies stuff.
After all I can't envisage this as being a game breaker even if it does
make for a nice semantic debate.
"Fred Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
news:QVJNf.7739$z82.2172@fed1read07...
> I think David's point is, why is it necessary that Mata Hari be the
> minion that allows you to play Ventrue Investment in order to allow
> her card text to affect the play of the card? If it's a minion
> card, the reason is that obviously that Mata Hari can't play a card
> if she can't meet its requirements. But if it's a master card, her
> text simply says _the methuselah_ may play master cards as if she
> belonged any particular clan. It does not strictly say that it
> requires that Mata Hari be the minion who allowed the methuselah to
> play the card in order to play the master card that way; it just gives
> the Methuselah an option when playing a card. LSJ may want us to infer
> this requirement but I couldn't find anywhere he's said anything like
> that. Nor have I found a rule that says it either. If you can, be
> my guest.
>
Thank you, Fred. That expresses my point perfectly...
DZ
AW
"Karl Schaefer" <k.sch...@icarnegie.com> wrote in message
news:1141348444.1...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
A minion does not play master cards. YOU (the player) play master cards.
Quoted thread is not relevant to the scenario posed.
DZ
AW
"jibbajibba" <jibba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141394578.7...@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> >It all makes perfect sense. It's still not what Mata Hari's text>>actually says. It makes no mention of only being usable to meet the
>>requirements of the cards I play, as opposed to being more general.>
> I agree entirely. If the text were saying
> 'If you chose to play card through Mata Hari, you may treat her as if
> ... etc'
> but it doesn't.
>
Yeah.. The idea that LSJ is using an entrenched shorthand doesn't really
jive with me. His card texts are a lot more deliberate (although there is
certainly room for error!)... It depends upon how you choose to parse the
text, in addition to designer intent.
Actual text:"You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan as
if she were of that required sect and/or clan."
Obviously there was some editing done to conserve space, but I read this as
(at least) two different effects:
1. 'You (Player) may play cards that require a sect and/or clan as if she
(Mata) were of that required sect and/or clan'
and,
2. '(Mata) may play cards that require a sect and/or clan as if (Mata) were
of that required sect and/or clan'
I suppose you could parse this down further into a sect special and a clan
special each for you and Mata, resulting in a further subdivision to four
distint "abilities"...
1. 'You (Player) may play cards that require a sect as if she (Mata) were of
that required sect'
and,
2. '(Mata) may play cards that require a sect as if (Mata) were of that
required sect'
and,
3. 'You (Player) may play cards that require a clan as if she (Mata) were of
that required clan'
and,
4. '(Mata) may play cards that require a clan as if (Mata) were of that
required clan'
DZ
AW
jnew...@difsol.com wrote:
> invisibl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > jnew...@difsol.com wrote:
> > > Karl Schaefer wrote:
> > > > A card played by you can see Mata Hari as the
> > > > thing relevant to the card in question, if you USE Mata Hari to bring
> > > > the card into play.
> > >
> > > This does not come from Mata Hari's text. Her text states that "You and
> > > Mata Hari may play cards that require a clan and/or sect as if she were
> > > a member of that clan or sect."
> >
> > Actually, yes, it does. Note that Mata Hari's text allows you to PLAY
> > cards that require a clan and/or sect, etc. It doesn't say anything
> > about what the effects of that card will be,
>
> Yes it does. It says that I may play that card as if Mata Hari were a
> member of that clan. What it most specifically does NOT say is that it
> is only usable when Mata Hari
>
> LSJ has ruled that
> > a vampire who allows you to play cards that require a clan or sect
> > other than that possessed by the vampire in question counts as that
> > clan or sect until the end of the card being played. However, if you're
> > not playing a card as a direct result of such a vampire's special, the
> > vampire counts as its default clan and sect.
Just to finish this out clearly: The LSJ post just above confirms my
earlier statement (above) that I will reiterate here:
A card played by you can see Mata Hari as the thing relevant to the
card in question, if you USE Mata Hari to bring the card into play.
LSJ's post does not differentiate between minion and Master cards
because there is no need; Mata's special treats them the same way.
> > > >From which you can parse out "You ... may play cards that require a
> > > clan .. as if [Mata Hari] were a member of that clan..."
> > >
> > > While this may in fact be meant to *imply* that you must be using this
> > > text to meet the requirements of a card in order to activate this text
> > > for that card, it does not *state* this. It states that "You," a
> > > methuselah, may play a certain class of cards (those that require a
> > > clan) as if Mata Hari belonged to that clan.
> >
> > Right. You may play them. However, if Mata Hari doesn't meet other
> > requirements of playing that card (being in torpor disallows the
> > playing of master cards that would otherwise require her, in this
> > example), she doesn't count as a member of that clan or sect while the
> > card is being played.
>
> Her text does not say that. Her text says that I may play cards as if
> she were a member of a clan that she is not. It does not state that I
> must also play the card as if she were the member of that clan that
> meets the ready minion requirement of that card.
So, you want LSJ to come confirm that you can't break the rules?
No one is denying the Mata gives you the ability to play Ventrue
Investment, but Ventrue Investment has TWO requirements (where's that
dead horse?): !Ventrue and readyness. If any other vampire (you know,
besides Mata Hari) has to meet both requirements for you to be able to
play the card, how do you expect Mata Hari in torpor to meet the
readiness requirement?
Think about it this way: If Mata Hari is ready can I play Recure of the
Homeland?
No. She doesn't meet the requirement of being in torpor. So, if we go
back to the LSJ post, which doesn't differentiate between minion and
master cards and work forward, we come to the logical question of:
If Mata Hari must meet all the requirements to play a minion card
(granted that some of those requirements may be fulfilled by her
special), must she meet all of the requirements of a Master card that I
play?
I guess you know what side of the fence I'm on here. It's a clear and
logical progression to understand that if Mata is the reason for the
play of the card then Mata must also fulfill all the requirements.
> > Really, I think that the confusion over this issue stems from a verbal
> > shorthand that's probably been in use since 1994. It's a shorthand that
> > was totally valid until the printing of Mata Hari, Tatiana Stepanova
> > and Kemintiri (ADV). However, it's never been technically correct. The
> > best way to illustrate this shorthand is through the use of an example:
> >
> > I have four Ventrue in play. One of them happens to be Horatio Ballard.
> > During my master phase, I play Ventrue Headquarters. I ask if there are
> > any Suddens, and if not I pay my pool and put the Ventrue HQ into play.
> > After finishing up any other master phase effects, I move on to my
> > minion phase.
> >
> > Technically speaking, this is incorrect play. I should have had to
> > announce which vampire allowed me to play Ventrue Headquarters, since
> > it requires a ready Ventrue to play. However, since everyone can see
> > that I've got at least one ready Ventrue and it doesn't make a
> > difference as to which vampire I used to put the HQ into play, we've
> > all gotten used to not announcing which it is. With the three imposter
> > vampires from KMW, though, it's suddenly become important which vampire
> > is allowing you to play which card, if only for those three.
> >
> > For this example, in which Mata Hari is in torpor and Blackhorse Tanner
> > (a different !Ventrue than Samson, but it'll get around the grouping
> > issue) is not, it matters quite a bit when it comes to the playing of
> > Ventrue Investment. Karl didn't go through this explicitly when
> > delineating what happens when Mata is or isn't ready and you play this
> > card, so I will.
Actually, I did go through all these in a much earlier post. David,
stripped all but one of my examples in his reply.
> > 1) Mata is ready and so is Blackhorse. When you play the Investment,
> > you can either announce that you're using Blackhorse to play it
> > (because he's a !Ventrue) or Mata (because of her special). If you
> > choose Blackhorse, the Investment only gets one counter; when it checks
> > for !Ventrue you control, it sees Mata as a Ravnos. If you choose Mata,
> > she is considered a !Ventrue as far as the Investment is concerned
> > until the card enters play, so you get two counters.
> >
> > 2) Mata is in torpor, but Blackhorse is ready. When you play the
> > Investment, it can only get one counter. Since Mata is in torpor, she
> > cannot allow you to play master cards that require a given clan (since
> > all master cards with a clan requirement need a ready vampire of that
> > clan, not any vampire of that clan). So when the Investment checks for
> > how many !Ventrue you control, it sees Mata as a Ravnos, exactly as in
> > the example above if you chose Blackhorse to play the card.
> >
> > Does this make more sense?
>
> It all makes perfect sense. It's still not what Mata Hari's text
> actually says. It makes no mention of only being usable to meet the
> requirements of the cards I play, as opposed to being more general.
Well, this is where I get confused again. Cause in my mind, this is
exactly what Mata Hari's text says. Perhaps, we can move this to a
more fruitful end, by determining what logical leap that I am making
that you are not or vice versa. So, what step in my logic (above)
doesn't sit well with you? Where do you start to differ with my
assertions?
Karl Schaefer wrote:
> So, you want LSJ to come confirm that you can't break the rules?
>
> No one is denying the Mata gives you the ability to play Ventrue
> Investment, but Ventrue Investment has TWO requirements (where's that
> dead horse?): !Ventrue and readyness. If any other vampire (you know,
> besides Mata Hari) has to meet both requirements for you to be able to
> play the card, how do you expect Mata Hari in torpor to meet the
> readiness requirement?
Mata Hari's text does not give me the ability to play Ventrue
Investment. It allows me to play Ventrue Investment *as if Mata Hari
were a Ventrue antitribu*. This can allow me to play the card without
actually controlling a Ventrue antitribu, provided Mata Hari meets the
all the requirements (i.e., she's ready and does not have, say, Seeds
of Corruption negating her card text).
If I can otherwise play Ventrue Investment (i.e., I meet the
requirement with another minion), I should STILL be able to play that
card as if she were a Ventrue antitribu, because that's what her text
says that I can do.
> Think about it this way: If Mata Hari is ready can I play Recure of the
> Homeland?
Yes, provided one of my other minions meets the requirements.
> No. She doesn't meet the requirement of being in torpor.
Yeah. I understand the part where minions can't play minion cards
without meeting the requirements. I also understand the part where
methuselahs must meet the requirements of cards they play. But Mata
Hari's text doesn't actually state, physically, on the card, that she
must be the one to meet the requirements of cards that *I* play as if
she were of a clan that she is not. Nor does any place in the rulebook
or any ruling I've read.
> So, if we go
> back to the LSJ post, which doesn't differentiate between minion and
> master cards and work forward, we come to the logical question of:
> If Mata Hari must meet all the requirements to play a minion card
> (granted that some of those requirements may be fulfilled by her
> special), must she meet all of the requirements of a Master card that I
> play?
Minions must *always* meet all the requirements of cards they play. But
not every minion has to meet all the requirements of cards a methuselah
plays. And a minion's card text remains active even when they aren't
being used to meet the requirements of a master card.
But Beckett (adv) doesn't have to be a Ventrue when I play Ventrue
Headquarters as long as I control a ready Alan Sovereign, and just
because Beckett didn't meet the requirements of a card I played doesn't
make me lose the hand size his text grants.
> I guess you know what side of the fence I'm on here. It's a clear and
> logical progression to understand that if Mata is the reason for the
> play of the card then Mata must also fulfill all the requirements.
It's pretty obvious looking at her that that's the designer's intent. I
understand that it will almost certainly be ruled that way. It makes
perfect sense to rule it that way. But it *needs* a ruling, because
it's not explicit in the text.
> > It all makes perfect sense. It's still not what Mata Hari's text
> > actually says. It makes no mention of only being usable to meet the
> > requirements of the cards I play, as opposed to being more general.
> Well, this is where I get confused again. Cause in my mind, this is
> exactly what Mata Hari's text says. Perhaps, we can move this to a
> more fruitful end, by determining what logical leap that I am making
> that you are not or vice versa. So, what step in my logic (above)
> doesn't sit well with you? Where do you start to differ with my
> assertions?
The assumption that her card text can only apply under certain
conditions not specified by her card text is the one I'm having trouble
with.
Examples: Mata Hari's in torpor and I control a ready Gangrel. I meet
the requirements of Zoo Hunting Ground, so I may play Zoo Hunting
Ground. Since Zoo Hunting Ground requires a Gangrel, I may play it as
if Mata Hari were a Gangrel. This has no effect, but I can do it
anyway. HA!
Mata Hari's in torpor, and I have no Gangrel. I may play Zoo Hunting
Ground as if Mata Hari were a Gangrel, which means not at all because
she's not ready and I control no ready Gangrel.
Beckett's in torpor and I control a ready Ramona. I may play Zoo
Hunting Ground as if Beckett were a Gangrel because he is. He doesn't
allow me to play the card, but I'm still playing it as if he were a
Gangrel, because he is.
Samson's in torpor and I control a ready Kyle Strathcona. I may play
Ventrue Investment as if Samson were a Ventrue antitribu, because he
is. I may do this in spite of the fact that he does not meet the
requirement to play that card. In fact, I have no choice.
If Mata Hari's in torpor, and her text tells me that I may play cards
as if she were a Ventrue antitribu, and a vampire's text is active in
torpor by default, then I may play all my masters that require clans as
if she were a member of that clan. For many of them, that will mean
that I cannot play them at all, because she's not ready. But there may
be one or two that I *can* play, meeting the requirements with another
vampire, and according to the literal words on her card, I may play
them as if she were a member of the required clan.
The only two cards it matters for (IIRC) are Ventrue Investment and
Acquired Ventrue Assets. It's a stupid, corner-case, pointless
scenario, and obviously not what the designer intended, but it is what
the text actually says.
John
James Coupe wrote:
> In message <Mf0Nf.2634$E_3....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>, David Zopf
> <david...@snetx.net> writes:
>>>"Fred Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message
>>news:C10Nf.7568$z82.1356@fed1read07...
>>>>> Mata Hari's special only operates when it allows you to
>>>play a card.>>
>>I must have been missing that piece, then. I never saw that as a salient
>>point in LSJ's posts (admittedly, Mata generated a whole bunch of thread
>>'white noise' which I didn't have the fortitude to read). Damned game is
>>starting to require extensive "how to" guides for individual cards now...
>>Mata needs one, a Google search yields too much white noise for me to gather
>>the above.
>>
>>You wouldn't happen to have a thread reference, for where the above
>>assertion came from?>
>
> This one will probably help:
>
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/9ae7e5
> ae4fb503c9>
Yeah, that seems to be doing it -- a direct response to this exact
issue.
But wrong, by card text, as DZ, FS, &c. have noted.
You can play Ventrue Investment as if Mata were a Ventrue anti, even
if she is in torpor (as long as you have some other enabling ready
Ventrue anti, of course).
For those who see the post cited by JC above as a direct response
to this question (which it is), treat this as a REVERSAL (which
it is).
So it will take effect in 30 days for VEKN tournaments.
--
That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet.
Keep a little and let a little come back to me.
LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/