If the following is true:
"If a minion cannot pay the cost of an action when the action resolves,
the action continues with no effect ("fizzles"). [RTR 19961113]"
...then how is it resolved when:
1. A vampire, in torpor, with less than 2 blood, attempts to take an
action to leave torpor?
I believe the vampire should be allowed to attempt the action, with a
blocking attempt allowed and resolved in the normal fashion, if
necessary, and the acting vampire would then end the action tapped, in
torpor, with the same amount of (less than 2) blood as it began the
action.
2. A ready vampire attempts to rescue a vampire in torpor, where the
total blood between them is less than 2?
I believe the vampire should be allowed to attempt the action, with a
blocking attempt allowed and resolved in the normal fashion, if
necessary, and the vampire would then end the action tapped, with both
vampires retaining the same amount of (less than 2) blood as they began
the action.
Also, does this ruling, along with the recent slew of
"May-I-search-my-library-even-though-I-know-I-will-be-unable-to-find-what
-I'm-looking-for" questions, imply, or state, or is it or has it been
stated elsewhere, that you may or may not take actions which you know to
be unresolvable? Since 1.6.1 [3] states "In general, a minion card can
be played only by a minion who meets the requirements given on the card",
it would seem to indicate that, if it were an action CARD, the action
could not be attempted, since you wouldn't meet the requirements, but
there are places in the rulebook where this is contradicted. I also
don't know if it applies to the 'default' action types.
I'm not sure if or how the above question interrelates to the issues
brought up when a vampire has 0 blood but is prevented from hunting,
since in those scenarios the vampire is "locked-down" and unable to take
any actions.
Thank you for going through all that with me. I've tried to be as clear
as possible. Any additional comments you feel are relevant to this
discussion would be welcome.
Kevin J. Mergen, Prince of Madison, WI
(remove PLEASENOSPAMME for direct reply)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, _The_Art_of_War_
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
In article <xS9Y6.68686$mG4.33...@news1.mntp1.il.home.com>,
Kevin M. <kjme...@PLEASENOSPAMMEhome.com> wrote:
>If the following is true:
>
>"If a minion cannot pay the cost of an action when the action resolves,
>the action continues with no effect ("fizzles"). [RTR 19961113]"
>
>...then how is it resolved when:>1. A vampire, in torpor, with less than 2 blood, attempts to take an
>action to leave torpor?
He cannot take the action. In general, a minion cannot take an
action if it is unable to pay the cost at the time the action is
announced.
>I believe the vampire should be allowed to attempt the action, with a
>blocking attempt allowed and resolved in the normal fashion, if
>necessary, and the acting vampire would then end the action tapped, in
>torpor, with the same amount of (less than 2) blood as it began the
>action.
Moot, since he can't attempt the action.
>2. A ready vampire attempts to rescue a vampire in torpor, where the
>total blood between them is less than 2?
The ready vampire cannot attempt the action, since the cost cannot
be paid at the time the action is announced.
>I believe the vampire should be allowed to attempt the action, with a
>blocking attempt allowed and resolved in the normal fashion, if
>necessary, and the vampire would then end the action tapped, with both
>vampires retaining the same amount of (less than 2) blood as they began
>the action.
Moot, since he can't attempt the action.
>Also, does this ruling, along with the recent slew of
>"May-I-search-my-library-even-though-I-know-I-will-be-unable-to-find-what
>-I'm-looking-for" questions, imply, or state, or is it or has it been
>stated elsewhere, that you may or may not take actions which you know to
>be unresolvable?
Search-your-library-for-X actions aren't unresolvable if you don't find
X. You search, fail to find, and reshuffle. That's the action's resolution.
>Since 1.6.1 [3] states "In general, a minion card can
>be played only by a minion who meets the requirements given on the card",
Which includes cost.
>it would seem to indicate that, if it were an action CARD, the action
>could not be attempted, since you wouldn't meet the requirements, but
>there are places in the rulebook where this is contradicted. I also
>don't know if it applies to the 'default' action types.
I'm not sure what those places might be; could you point me to
specific sections? Without specific exception text, what's good for
actions in general is good for cardless and carded types, and what
constrains an action in general constrains both cardless and
carded actions. This includes not being allowed to attempt the action
if a minion cannot pay the action cost at the time the action is
announced.
Going through your library for X is not a cost of the action, but an
effect.
>I'm not sure if or how the above question interrelates to the issues
>brought up when a vampire has 0 blood but is prevented from hunting,
>since in those scenarios the vampire is "locked-down" and unable to take
>any actions.
It doesn't, really.
gomi
--
Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray
What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby
Gomi no Sensei wrote:
>
> In article <xS9Y6.68686$mG4.33...@news1.mntp1.il.home.com>,
> Kevin M. <kjme...@PLEASENOSPAMMEhome.com> wrote:
> >If the following is true:
> >
> >"If a minion cannot pay the cost of an action when the action resolves,
> >the action continues with no effect ("fizzles"). [RTR 19961113]"
> >
> >...then how is it resolved when:
>
> >1. A vampire, in torpor, with less than 2 blood, attempts to take an
> >action to leave torpor?
>
> He cannot take the action. In general, a minion cannot take an
> action if it is unable to pay the cost at the time the action is
> announced.
Correct.
> >2. A ready vampire attempts to rescue a vampire in torpor, where the
> >total blood between them is less than 2?
>
> The ready vampire cannot attempt the action, since the cost cannot
> be paid at the time the action is announced.
Correct. Also note that the way the cost is to be paid is specified when
the action is announced.
> >Also, does this ruling, along with the recent slew of
> >"May-I-search-my-library-even-though-I-know-I-will-be-unable-to-find-what
> >-I'm-looking-for" questions, imply, or state, or is it or has it been
> >stated elsewhere, that you may or may not take actions which you know to
> >be unresolvable?
>
> Search-your-library-for-X actions aren't unresolvable if you don't find
> X. You search, fail to find, and reshuffle. That's the action's resolution.
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"Gomi no Sensei" <go...@best.com> wrote in message
news:9grbgo$11uf$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
> In article <xS9Y6.68686$mG4.33...@news1.mntp1.il.home.com>,
> Kevin M. <kjme...@PLEASENOSPAMMEhome.com> wrote:
[snip now-irrelevant text]
> >Since 1.6.1 [3] states "In general, a minion card can
> >be played only by a minion who meets the requirements given on the
card",
>
> Which includes cost.
>
> >it would seem to indicate that, if it were an action CARD, the action
> >could not be attempted, since you wouldn't meet the requirements, but
> >there are places in the rulebook where this is contradicted. I also
> >don't know if it applies to the 'default' action types.
>
> I'm not sure what those places might be; could you point me to
> specific sections?
In 6.2.3 it is stated "If the action is successful (all block attempts
were unsuccessful), THEN the cost of the action is paid, and the effects
of the successful action take place." [emphasis mine]
So, this seems to contradict 1.6.1 [3], along with your explanation
(which I agree with, btw, thanks for the clarification).
> gomi
> --
> Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray
> What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <QLuY6.73503$mG4.34...@news1.mntp1.il.home.com>,
Kevin M. <kjme...@PLEASENOSPAMMEhome.com> wrote:
>> >Since 1.6.1 [3] states "In general, a minion card can
>> >be played only by a minion who meets the requirements given on the>card",>> Which includes cost.>> >it would seem to indicate that, if it were an action CARD, the action
>> >could not be attempted, since you wouldn't meet the requirements, but
>> >there are places in the rulebook where this is contradicted. I also
>> >don't know if it applies to the 'default' action types.>> I'm not sure what those places might be; could you point me to
>> specific sections?>
>In 6.2.3 it is stated "If the action is successful (all block attempts
>were unsuccessful), THEN the cost of the action is paid, and the effects
>of the successful action take place." [emphasis mine]>So, this seems to contradict 1.6.1 [3], along with your explanation
>(which I agree with, btw, thanks for the clarification).
I'm not sure how it contradicts it:
a) a minion can only attempt an action if it meets the requirements
(including the ability to pay the cost of the action)
b) an action's cost is only paid when the action is successful
These don't contradict, do they? Or have I misunderstood the contradiction
somehow?
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
I don't see the contradiction either. 6.2.3 indicates WHEN the cost is
paid; it doesn't indicate that the cost is not part of the requirements.
[ quoted text not captured ]