ShotgunRitual vs ThoughtsBetrayed?

Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to be a generaly principle of the V:tES rules that if two different cards contradict eachother, it is the most recently played card that takes precedence. This seems to me a logical extention of the "Golden Rule for Cards", which states that cards always take precedence over the rules. The base rules, of course, are always the first effects in play. Thus, cards not only take precedence over the rules, but also over any earlier-played cards whose effects are still altering those base rules. Based on this, am I correct in assuming that Shotgun Ritual (played at the beginning of a round) takes precedence over the current (errata'd) version of Thoughts Betrayed (played earlier "as combat begins")? Lupus Australis ____ ____ \ \----/ / |()__()| __\ __ /__ / __\()/__ \ |/ \==/ \| | || |

Lupus Australis <jbwh...@dorsai.org> wrote: > Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to be a generaly principle of the > V:tES rules that if two different cards contradict eachother, it is the > most recently played card that takes precedence. This seems to me a > logical extention of the "Golden Rule for Cards", which states that cards > always take precedence over the rules. The base rules, of course, are > always the first effects in play. Thus, cards not only take precedence > over the rules, but also over any earlier-played cards whose effects are > still altering those base rules. > > Based on this, am I correct in assuming that Shotgun Ritual (played at the > beginning of a round) takes precedence over the current (errata'd) version > of Thoughts Betrayed (played earlier "as combat begins")? Excellent analysis. Shotgun Ritual is "only usable at the beginning of combat", which gives it the same window of opportunity as Thoughts Betrayed ("as combat begins"). But, yes, whichever one is played last takes precedence. If Shotgun Ritual is played after superior Thoughts Betrayed, then the vampire be able to use "not usable on first round" strike cards requiring Thaumaturgy on the first round (but still cannot play any other strike cards on the first round, nor any strike cards at all on the subsequent rounds, if they occur). -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

On Sat, 1 May 1999, Derek S. Ray wrote: > On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:50:16 -0400, Lupus Australis > > >Based on this, am I correct in assuming that Shotgun Ritual (played at the > >beginning of a round) takes precedence over the current (errata'd) version > >of Thoughts Betrayed (played earlier "as combat begins")? > > if someone played TB first, you would be unable to use any strike > cards for the rest of combat. Possibly. But not if most-recently-played cards take precedence. TB takes away your normal power to play *any* strike cards, creating a new situation which is different from the normal rules. SR is played later, and arguably gives *back* a power to play certain kinds of strike cards. Shotgun Ritual specifically grants a power to play certain strike cards, and arguably it should not matter if an earlier card took that power away. > Shotgun Ritual permits you to use 2nd > round strike cards in the 1st round - Indeed it does. It grants you a power you did not have before. > but you cannot use strike cards > anyway, No. Not until you played the SR. But if you already posessed the power that Shotgun Ritual granted, then there would be no point to playing the card, now would there? > so this is probably not a good card to play after TB has been > played. ;) The effects here don't overlap or contradict each other, > from what I can see. One specifically takes from you the power to play strike cards. The other specifically gives you the power to play strike cards (under certain circumstances). One clearly contradicts the other. You are assuming that TB has the power to prevent SR from taking effect. But it seems to me that the only way that TB can do this is to prevent a card from being played at all. But SR is not a strike card, so clearly TB does not prevent it's being played. Once played, it should take effect just like any normal card, even if it's effect contradicts the rulebook, or previous effects still in operation. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sat, 1 May 1999 16:42:06 -0400, Lupus Australis <jbwh...@dorsai.org> wrote: (Side note: despite how i sound in this, IANALSJ. =) >Possibly. But not if most-recently-played cards take precedence. TB takes >away your normal power to play *any* strike cards, creating a new >situation which is different from the normal rules. SR is played later, >and arguably gives *back* a power to play certain kinds of strike cards. >Shotgun Ritual specifically grants a power to play certain strike cards, >and arguably it should not matter if an earlier card took that power away. But SR's scope is significantly more limited than TB's. TB applies to the entire combat - SR only applies to a specific subset of combat cards, and only applies to a specific subset of combat - the first round. >Indeed it does. It grants you a power you did not have before. No, it removes a restriction that is placed on you by card text. Slight difference - but important here. I see it as removing the card text restriction of the not-usable-first-round combat cards per its own text, but its text does not remove the card text restriction of no-strike-cards-this-combat. >One specifically takes from you the power to play strike cards. The other >specifically gives you the power to play strike cards (under certain >circumstances). One clearly contradicts the other. No. as above, one applies to the entire combat, one applies only to a specific subset of THA combat cards. Different focus. >You are assuming that TB has the power to prevent SR from taking effect. >But it seems to me that the only way that TB can do this is to prevent a >card from being played at all. But SR is not a strike card, so clearly TB >does not prevent it's being played. Once played, it should take effect >just like any normal card, even if it's effect contradicts the rulebook, >or previous effects still in operation. TB does not prevent SR's being played, no, as SR is not a strike card and does not fall under TB's card text specifics. SR does not negate TB's effect, though - it merely negates the "not first round" restriction on some THA strike cards. -- Derek (replying by email? remove the nospam from my domain :)