Mad, bad, and cap in hand! Help needed!

Hello all, I played this deck last saturday at the Wedding of Anam and Ian, and although it is work in progress, I can;t help thinking I'm missing something. Deck name: Coming around again Description: Main party piece - bring out the Escaped Mental patients, let them rush minions for ag damage, and keep bringing them back out! Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 12, Max: 32, Avg: 5.00] 2 Carlotta Giovanni (Giovanni, 7, do NE ob PO) 1 Claven (Malkavian Antitribu, 4, au de ob) 1 Enzo Giovanni, Pentex Board of Directors (Giovanni, 8, an DO NE po th) 1 Francesca Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, do ne po) 2 Gloria Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, DO ne) 1 Mario Giovanni (Giovanni, 3, ne po) 1 Regina Giovanni, The Right Hand of Augustus (Giovanni, 10, au DO fo NE PO, 2 votes) 1 Rudolpho Giovanni (Giovanni, 3, NE) 2 Yorik (Malkavian Antitribu, 3, de ob) Library: (85 cards) Master (14) 3 Blood Doll 1 KRCG News Radio 1 London Evening Star, Tabloid Newspaper 1 Minion Tap 2 Tribute to the Master 2 Obfuscate 2 Necromancy 1 Potence 1 Minion Tap 1 Morgue Hunting Ground 1 Elysium: The Arboritum Minion (71) Dominate (10) 6 Deflection 2 Kindred Coercion 2 Govern the Unalligned Necromancy (16) 4 Spectral Divination 2 Spiritual Intervention 2 Whispers from the Dead 1 Death Pact 7 Compel the Spirit Potence (8) 1 Death of my Conscience 3 Throw Gate 2 Torn Signpost 2 Immortal Grappel Obfuscate (9) 3 Lost in Crowds 5 Cloak the Gathering 1 Sacrificial Lamb Other (28) 1 Ambrosius, The Ferryman (Wraith) 1 Dauntain Black Magician (Changeling) 7 Escaped Mental Patient 1 Laptop Computer 1 Palatial Estate 2 Sports Bike 1 Talbot's Chainsaw 2 Arson 2 Clan Impersonation 3 Computer Hacking 2 Trap 5 Wake with Evenings Freshness It's a bit of an "everything at once deck", but ideally it should have a horde of Mentalists that just won't die because the Giovanni just keep bringing them back out at very little cost. Seems to be short on blood gen and intercept, and also a bit weak on stealth. Any suggestions? David Hammond Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <8sh8qm$946$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] i liked this deck when i saw it in action. If you are finding it to be slightly "sticky" i suggest going for three disciplines instead of 4. i would also double up on Enzo and Rudolpho and leave out Mario and Francesca because you REALLY need NEC for this deck to work. Probably you don't need the obf and pot skill cards which leaves two-three slots for extra pool gain and/or power cards. The Succubus club could be good in this deck - hire your loonies out for pool. There's maybe a case for replacing some of the !Malks with malkavians and slipping in the Muddled Vampire Hunter. Forgotten Labyrinth is probably a good addition to this deck and if, as i suggest, you lose the potence then you might want to build in some Disguised Weapon/Weapon combo action to replace it, and Heidelberg Castle, too. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8sh8qm$946$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > Hello all, > > I played this deck last saturday at the Wedding of Anam and Ian, and > although it is work in progress, I can;t help thinking I'm missing > something. > I shouldn't really start talking about focus when such a bizarre idea builds the foundation, but as you asked ;-) Question: What is this deck going to do? It brings out Escaped Mental Patients to go out and torporize vampires, then tries to resurrect the lunatics via Necromancy. And it has to oust ist prey somehow. EMP need !Malk, NEC Giovanni. For the part about ousting your prey that leaves you with two generic strategies: bruise/bleed (Giovanni) or setalth/bleed (!Malk). What you did is basically a standard Giovanni deck with some !Malks and EMPs: > > Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 12, Max: 32, Avg: 5.00] > 2 Carlotta Giovanni (Giovanni, 7, do NE ob > PO) > 1 Claven (Malkavian Antitribu, 4, > au de ob) > 1 Enzo Giovanni, Pentex Board of Directors (Giovanni, 8, an DO NE > po th) > 1 Francesca Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, do ne po) > 2 Gloria Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, DO ne) > 1 Mario Giovanni (Giovanni, 3, ne po) > 1 Regina Giovanni, The Right Hand of Augustus (Giovanni, 10, au DO fo > NE PO, 2 votes) > 1 Rudolpho Giovanni (Giovanni, 3, NE) > 2 Yorik (Malkavian Antitribu, 3, > de ob) > Even for a Giovanni deck I find the average capacity of your vamps a bit, err, intimidating. To get this looney parade going you need a !Malk and someone with NEC as early as possible. Best bet for this are Rudolpho and Yorik, but the odds are against this. Actually the odds are against having a !Malk in your uncontrolled region at the start of the game reliably. I would suggest going with the best vampires for Plan A (EMPs going, well, crazy) and make Plan B (ousting your prey) according to the result. I would suggest more smallish !Malks, an extra Rudolpho and Rafaele as well (obf/NEC at 6). Get rid of Enzo and Regina – too expensive. The skills you use would be: Necromancy, Obfuscate and one bleeder – either Dominate or Dementation (add skill cards to get your choice on as many vampires as possible). Dominate would let you steal the (hopefully) torporized victims of the EMPs with Grave Robbing, so maybe that's the better (theme wise) choice. What I find irritating is that your deck even has Plan C: intercept and D: card retrieval through Carlotta and Whispers. I would think the whole setup is complicated enough with just A and B. You have to recruit the EMPs, resurrect them, maybe even clan impersonate to !Malk to start the whole affair, and as soon as all opposing vampires are torporized get done with your prey. That takes a lot of time and actions. Please excuse what might read like harsh critizising and the lack of more detailed suggestions (not enough time and resources at hand), I just got carried away because I like to toy around with bizarre ideas myself as well ;-) And please post what sort of progress you are making. Regards Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich "Our hearts discern wild images of Death, Shadows and shoals that edge eternity." [ quoted text not captured ]

<snip promising deck> > i liked this deck when i saw it in action. If you are finding it to be > slightly "sticky" i suggest going for three disciplines instead of 4. I could happily ditch the Potence, it was mainly there as a "frightner" - to stop me being the target of too many rushes! i > would also double up on Enzo and Rudolpho and leave out Mario and > Francesca because you REALLY need NEC for this deck to work. Yup. Probably you > don't need the obf and pot skill cards which leaves two-three slots for > extra pool gain and/or power cards. That said, I was thinking of adding a couple more Sacrificial Lambs which really needs the superior OBF. It worked a treat against John's Lisette on Saturday (mentalists attack, Yorick (with superior OBF) played Sacrificial Lamb, Enzo brought teh Mentalist back. Nice. > The Succubus club could be good in > this deck - hire your loonies out for pool. I like this idea a lot. Very Malky! There's maybe a case for > replacing some of the !Malks with malkavians and slipping in the Muddled > Vampire Hunter. Due to the number of !Malk allies, you HAVE to have a !Malk out in the first 2 turns. The Muddled one suffers from being unique and slightly more expensive. One of the nicer visions for this deck would be to have a horde of mentalists out at once. Not possible with a normal malk and a Muddled. Forgotten Labyrinth is probably a good addition to this > deck and if, Well spotted! I'd forgotten about this and also Psychic Veil. as i suggest, you lose the potence then you might want to > build in some Disguised Weapon/Weapon combo action to replace it, and > Heidelberg Castle, too. I suppose on a good draw, you could end up with multi Talbots action on Ambrosius and Daunten, Plus Mentalist. Nice! I'll do that. Might even play it at Watford... Cheers Mr Biter! DH [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8shsd5$p9e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <8sh8qm$946$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > I played this deck last saturday at the Wedding of Anam and Ian, and > > although it is work in progress, I can;t help thinking I'm missing > > something. > > > > I shouldn't really start talking about focus when such a bizarre idea builds > the foundation, but as you asked ;-) > > Question: What is this deck going to do? It brings out Escaped Mental > Patients to go out and torporize vampires, then tries to resurrect the > lunatics via Necromancy. And it has to oust ist prey somehow. This is a good point. I was hoping that a consolidated attacking front (ie loads of d attacking agg mentalists) are enough to torpoise my prey, allowing hassle free bleeds. Small bleeds, but hassle free bleeds. With many of the minions being cheap, it could also allow quite a few through at once. [ quoted text not captured ] 25% of the crypt is !Malky, and there are a couple of Clan Imps. in there. I thought those were reasonable odds of at least 1 coming up. [ quoted text not captured ] I suppose the vamps have to be burned really. Good point. > Please excuse what might read like harsh critizising and the lack of more > detailed suggestions (not enough time and resources at hand), I just got > carried away because I like to toy around with bizarre ideas myself as well > ;-) And please post what sort of progress you are making. > > Regards > > Skaffen > Chantry Elder Of Munich > > "Our hearts discern wild images of Death, > Shadows and shoals that edge eternity." > [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8shu7s$r22$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <8shsd5$p9e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote: > > In article <8sh8qm$946$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > 25% of the crypt is !Malky, and there are a couple of Clan Imps. in > there. I thought those were reasonable odds of at least 1 coming up. Just a note you may want to consider Derange, it's a lot cheaper than Clan Imps, but it does requires dementation. Joe C. - V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC Editor: Tzimisce Clan Newsletter www.warghoul.com [ quoted text not captured ]

Okay, back at home, resources at hand, so here's my rough sketch for a deck following your basic idea. After some consideration I went the !Malk way, because the Giovanni are only needed for their NEC, and the heavy hitters from Italy come at a somewhat steep cost, especially if you want Necromancy, Dominate and stealth. Anyway, this is obviously a different approach, but maybe insightful as to how this might work. Note that this is a bare-bones deck, so if you need for intercept due to the local metagame, it should be possible to add an appropriate "module". Here we go, and as always a big thanks to ELDB. Eccentric Maniacal Pulses (I love acronyms...) Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 11, Max: 25, Avg: 4,50] 2 Artemis (Malkavian Antitribu, 6, au ce DE fo OB) 1 Boy Toy (Malkavian Antitribu, 2, de) 1 Carlotta Giovanni (Giovanni, 7, do NE ob PO) 1 Claven (Malkavian Antitribu, 4, au de ob) 1 Muriel Foucade (Malkavian Antitribu, 5, au DE) 2 Rafaele Giovanni (Giovanni, 6, ce NE ob) 2 Rudolpho Giovanni (Giovanni, 3, NE) 2 Yorik (Malkavian Antitribu, 3, de ob) Library: Master (11) 3 Blood Doll 1 Institution Hunting Ground 2 Obfuscate 3 Necromancy 2 Tribute to the Master Minion (60) 5 Cloak the Gathering 7 Compel the Spirit 5 Computer Hacking 3 Confusion 1 Dauntain Black Magician (Changeling) 2 Dodge 2 Enchanted Marionette 7 Escaped Mental Patient 3 Eyes of Chaos 4 Fake Out 4 Kindred Spirits 3 Lost in Crowds 2 Mind Tricks 3 Sacrificial Lamb 3 Spectral Divination 3 Spiritual Intervention 3 Swallowed by the Night [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8sh8qm$946$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > Hello all, > > I played this deck last saturday at the Wedding of Anam and Ian, and > although it is work in progress, I can;t help thinking I'm missing > something. > > Deck name: Coming around again > > Description: Main party piece - bring out the Escaped Mental patients, > let them rush minions for ag damage, and keep bringing them back out! > > Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 12, Max: 32, Avg: 5.00] > 2 Carlotta Giovanni (Giovanni, 7, do NE ob > PO) > 1 Claven (Malkavian Antitribu, 4, > au de ob) > 1 Enzo Giovanni, Pentex Board of Directors (Giovanni, 8, an DO NE > po th) > 1 Francesca Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, do ne po) > 2 Gloria Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, DO ne) > 1 Mario Giovanni (Giovanni, 3, ne po) > 1 Regina Giovanni, The Right Hand of Augustus (Giovanni, 10, au DO fo > NE PO, 2 votes) > 1 Rudolpho Giovanni (Giovanni, 3, NE) > 2 Yorik (Malkavian Antitribu, 3, > de ob) > > Library: (85 cards) > Master (14) > 3 Blood Doll > 1 KRCG News Radio > 1 London Evening Star, Tabloid Newspaper > 1 Minion Tap > 2 Tribute to the Master [ quoted text not captured ] > 1 Dauntain Black Magician (Changeling) > 7 Escaped Mental Patient > > 1 Laptop Computer > 1 Palatial Estate > 2 Sports Bike > 1 Talbot's Chainsaw > > 2 Arson > 2 Clan Impersonation > 3 Computer Hacking > 2 Trap > 5 Wake with Evenings Freshness > > It's a bit of an "everything at once deck", but ideally it should have > a horde of Mentalists that just won't die because the Giovanni just > keep bringing them back out at very little cost. > > Seems to be short on blood gen and intercept, and also a bit weak on > stealth. > > Any suggestions? > I was thinking of a very similar idea just this morning on the way to work...maybe there really is a collective unconscious... i was leaning the malk way though as both share dom and you could use it to deflect instead of getting into combat. the slight drawback is that muddles is unique but he strikes with first strike so he won't necessarily die and therefore you won't need as many of him or as many compels. you seem to have two coercions for vote defense but if you go with smaller vampires as some of the other posters suggest then perhaps pulling strings and mausoleum would be better. [ quoted text not captured ]

Thanks for this. I went home and had a think myself, and came up with a few more ideas - especially along the lines of how to oust my prey. I think I had been missing a way of stripping my preys resources, and I had it under my nose all the time. More as we get there! > Okay, back at home, resources at hand, so here's my rough sketch for a > deck following your basic idea. After some consideration I went the > !Malk way, because the Giovanni are only needed for their NEC, and the > heavy hitters from Italy come at a somewhat steep cost, especially if > you want Necromancy, Dominate and stealth. Yes, but you were missing that a significant portion of the deck was the Dominate: Deflections (6 in my first attempt),dominate bleed (which is also better than Dementation bleed as it is more flexible - hence Govern the unalligned for the Superior to mitigate the pool cost of influencing vampires). My new approach goes... Crypt: (12 cards) (High:26, Low:12, Average 4.08) 1 Gloria Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, DOM nec) 1 Francesca Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, dom, nec, pot) 2 Carlotta Giovanni (Giovanni, 7, do NE ob PO) 1 Claven (Malkavian Antitribu, 4, au de ob) 1 Quira the Bitch queen (Malkavian Antitribu, 6, AU OBF tha obt) 1 Rafaele Giovanni (Giovanni, 6, ce NE ob) 2 Rudolpho Giovanni (Giovanni, 3, NE) 2 Yorik (Malkavian Antitribu, 3, de ob) 1 Watenda (Malkavian, 3 obf) Library: Master (15) 2 Blood Doll 1 Elysium: the arboritum 1 Morgue Hunting Ground 2 Obfuscate 1 Necromancy 2 Tribute to the Master 2 Dominate 1 Succubus Club 1 Minion Tap 1 KRCG News Radio 1 London Evening Star Minion (60) 1 Ambrosuis the Ferryman (wraith) 1 Arson 1 Clan Impersonation 4 Cloak the Gathering 7 Compel the Spirit 2 Computer Hacking 1 Dauntain Black Magician (Changeling) 5 Deflection 1 Diguised Weapon 7 Escaped Mental Patient 1 Flamethrower 2 Govern the Unalligned 3 Graverob 1 Hidden pathways 2 Kindred Coercion 3 Lost in Crowds 1 Muddeld Vampire Hunter 1 Palatial Estate 5 Spectral Divination 3 Spiritual Intervention 1 Talbots Chainsaw 2 Trap 4 Wake with Evenings Freshness 1 Whispers of the Dead As you can see, I have replaced the Sacrificial Lambs with Graverob, giving me more scope to steal my prey "on the cheap" and use them to hit my prey. By using agg damage, I get them (hopefully) full of blood. Of course, this is full of holes (S:CE / Prevention!!!) but the idea is I get (a maximum of) 15 shots - sooner or later a typical deck will run out!! I have also added a very small amount of Malkavian action in, just to see if I can pull a Muddled Vampire Hunter. But also because of Watendas useful ability! Any more thoughts? DH [ quoted text not captured ]

You could up the !Malk part a bit, with 2-3 Mind of a Childs. Which I know is expensive, however after you've stolen the Vampire from their torpor you could use a Heidelberg to move around some of the Blood on them. I have actually used this strategy in an all !Malks deck and that is effective in torporizing. And you might consider Defedra, as she has nec-obf. All in all very interesting, though. Tim In article <8sjsfi$f28$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] -- PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: On The First Day Of Gehenna The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8sjt61$ff9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tim Eijpe <t_e...@my-deja.com> wrote: > You could up the !Malk part a bit, with 2-3 Mind of a Childs. Which I > know is expensive, however after you've stolen the Vampire from their > torpor you could use a Heidelberg to move around some of the Blood on > them. > I have actually used this strategy in an all !Malks deck and that is > effective in torporizing. > And you might consider Defedra, as she has nec-obf. > All in all very interesting, though. I looked at Defedra, and she is useful at only 5 points, but she has neither ability at superior and she is another clan into the mix. I don't really have any MoaC left (wait for Sabbat War, eh...) and it is a bit expensive, and removable. I do like the Heidelburg idea. I was going to stick one in, but obviously forgot! Good stuff DH [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Okay, back at home, resources at hand, so here's my rough sketch for a > > deck following your basic idea. After some consideration I went the > > !Malk way, because the Giovanni are only needed for their NEC, and the > > heavy hitters from Italy come at a somewhat steep cost, especially if > > you want Necromancy, Dominate and stealth. > > Yes, but you were missing that a significant portion of the deck was > the Dominate: Deflections (6 in my first attempt),dominate bleed > (which is also better than Dementation bleed as it is more flexible - > hence Govern the unalligned for the Superior to mitigate the pool cost > of influencing vampires). > Obviously you are right. My deck suggestion went into a differnet dirrection, and I freely admit that I left out all defence apart from casual intercept and WWEF. While I still think that this concept cannot contain too many different aspects without loosing focus completely, I agree that bleed bounce via Deflections is a good strategy – at least it costs just 5 card slots. My EMP deck tries to be as fast as possible (not that fast I fear...) and just live through all bleed attempts by my prey – it has Tributes, Blood Dolls and some pool gain through Dementation bleeds (Kindred Spirits, isn't it? Again at work, so just guessing). Maybe I should check it in play, if I could only get the necessary Patients... > My new approach goes... > > Crypt: (12 cards) (High:26, Low:12, Average 4.08) > 1 Gloria Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, DOM nec) > 1 Francesca Giovanni (Giovanni, 4, dom, nec, pot) > 2 Carlotta Giovanni (Giovanni, 7, do NE ob PO) > 1 Claven (Malkavian Antitribu, 4, au de ob) > 1 Quira the Bitch queen (Malkavian Antitribu, 6, AU OBF tha obt) > 1 Rafaele Giovanni (Giovanni, 6, ce NE ob) > 2 Rudolpho Giovanni (Giovanni, 3, NE) > 2 Yorik (Malkavian Antitribu, 3, de ob) > 1 Watenda (Malkavian, 3 obf) > Library: > This looks much better, although the Watenda/Muddled thing is a bit off – prayer cards, nothing more (or less). > Master (15) > 2 Blood Doll > 1 Elysium: the arboritum > 1 Morgue Hunting Ground > 2 Obfuscate > 1 Necromancy > 2 Tribute to the Master > 2 Dominate > 1 Succubus Club > 1 Minion Tap > 1 KRCG News Radio > 1 London Evening Star > Maybe get rid of the Minion Tap, the vampires are not that big any more, and a lot of cards you want to play cost blood. You could add Heidelberg Castle to swap resources (especially blood). [ quoted text not captured ] The flame thrower is okay, but one Disguised Weapon looks like a prayer card again. Maybe another use for Heidelberg, as you could equip with say Rudolpho before he has to Compel too many Spirits. > As you can see, I have replaced the Sacrificial Lambs with Graverob, > giving me more scope to steal my prey "on the cheap" and use them to > hit my prey. By using agg damage, I get them (hopefully) full of blood. > Yeah, that's neat. > Of course, this is full of holes (S:CE / Prevention!!!) but the idea is > I get (a maximum of) 15 shots - sooner or later a typical deck will run > out!! > Nobody would expect a deck like this to cover every strategy. It's a halfway decent stealth bleeder (not the worst strategy at all), and it has potential to wreak some havoc in combat as well. > I have also added a very small amount of Malkavian action in, just to > see if I can pull a Muddled Vampire Hunter. But also because of > Watendas useful ability! > Hmm, as I said earlier – a bit off. Why would Watenda want to fight anyway? Regards Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich "Our hearts discern wild images of Death, Shadows and shoals that edge eternity." [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8sk37b$jqn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] Yes, but in the best case scenario, a Muddled is still a useful thing to have. > > Master (15) > > 2 Blood Doll > > 1 Elysium: the arboritum > > 1 Morgue Hunting Ground > > 2 Obfuscate > > 1 Necromancy > > 2 Tribute to the Master > > 2 Dominate > > 1 Succubus Club > > 1 Minion Tap > > 1 KRCG News Radio > > 1 London Evening Star > > > > Maybe get rid of the Minion Tap, the vampires are not that big any more, and > a lot of cards you want to play cost blood. You could add Heidelberg Castle > to swap resources (especially blood). Agreed. Or maybe just add another card (it is a small-ish deck). [ quoted text not captured ] The one disguised weapon is a prayer card, but allows a minion to equip without the hassle of taking an action. Best case is a minion gets attacked, plays disguised weapon, and ends combat (elysium / Spiritual Intervention). Then use Heibelburg to move it arround! > > As you can see, I have replaced the Sacrificial Lambs with Graverob, > > giving me more scope to steal my prey "on the cheap" and use them to > > hit my prey. By using agg damage, I get them (hopefully) full of blood. > > > > Yeah, that's neat. > > > Of course, this is full of holes (S:CE / Prevention!!!) but the idea is > > I get (a maximum of) 15 shots - sooner or later a typical deck will run > > out!! > > > > Nobody would expect a deck like this to cover every strategy. It's a halfway > decent stealth bleeder (not the worst strategy at all), and it has potential > to wreak some havoc in combat as well. > > > I have also added a very small amount of Malkavian action in, just to > > see if I can pull a Muddled Vampire Hunter. But also because of > > Watendas useful ability! > > > > Hmm, as I said earlier – a bit off. Why would Watenda want to fight anyway? As a way of protecting my useful vamps! He is a pawn to throw in the way of Bums Rushes / Ambushes / etc. The fact he has obf is also a bonus. To be honest, I wanted Normal, but ran out in my collection!! I may get to play this tommorrow, and I'll kep you all posted as to how it goes. DH [ quoted text not captured ]

> As a way of protecting my useful vamps! He is a pawn to throw in the > way of Bums Rushes / Ambushes / etc. The fact he has obf is also a > bonus. To be honest, I wanted Normal, but ran out in my collection!! > Isn't that what the Escaped Mental Patients are supposed to do? Any dedicated combat deck will cream your vampires anyway,but the EMPs are a threat not to be ignored. On a side note: You ran out of NORMAL?!! I have something like 12 of the critters in my boxes, and would rarely use more than one in any of my abominations. Or do you have some monstrous single vampire deck up your sleeve? "Back to Normal" or something... Maybe we should ask Mike Ooi ;-) Regards Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich "Our hearts discern wild images of Death, Shadows and shoals that edge eternity." Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <8skcf0$rke$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > As a way of protecting my useful vamps! He is a pawn to throw in the > > way of Bums Rushes / Ambushes / etc. The fact he has obf is also a > > bonus. To be honest, I wanted Normal, but ran out in my collection!! > > > > Isn't that what the Escaped Mental Patients are supposed to do? Any dedicated > combat deck will cream your vampires anyway,but the EMPs are a threat not to > be ignored. On a side note: You ran out of NORMAL?!! I have something like 12 > of the critters in my boxes, and would rarely use more than one in any of my > abominations. Or do you have some monstrous single vampire deck up your > sleeve? "Back to Normal" or something... Maybe we should ask Mike Ooi ;-) Crypt 15 x normal Masters 10 x Fortitude 10 x Dominate 5 x Effective management 4 x Parthenon 1 x Elder Library Minion 10 x Daring the Dawn 10 x Conditioning 10 x Govern the Unalligned Classic 10 bleed deck - bring out Normal, Tap parthenon to give him fortitude and dominate, bleed using Daring the Dawn to get it through, burn Normal, bring out another normal (repeat and fade)... It cleared 3 tables. Honest! ;-) [ quoted text not captured ]

Ehmm, this is Baaaaad(tm)...you evil man, you. But on the other hand would it be better to go for Ingrid Russo instead of Normal, even though she's twice as expensive. Then at least you could leave out all the Skill cards and include Command of the Beast for even more bleed punch. Just an idea. Tim > Crypt > > 15 x normal > > Masters > > 10 x Fortitude > 10 x Dominate > 5 x Effective management > 4 x Parthenon > 1 x Elder Library > > Minion > 10 x Daring the Dawn > 10 x Conditioning > 10 x Govern the Unalligned > > Classic 10 bleed deck - bring out Normal, Tap parthenon to give him > fortitude and dominate, bleed using Daring the Dawn to get it through, > burn Normal, bring out another normal (repeat and fade)... > > It cleared 3 tables. > > Honest! > > ;-) > > DH > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > -- PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: On The First Day Of Gehenna The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise [ quoted text not captured ]

Surely, but then I couldn't call the deck "Return to Normal!!!" Really, the "proper" version of this would have Ohanna in as the vampire and have 1 Gideon Fontain, 1 Bewitching Oration, and a Mark of the Damned!!! Or have Royce, Ohanna, Christine Bosacci, Samson, and Mustapha Ramin (or whatever that Tremere is called) repeated as the crypt, ditch all but 2 of the Dominate skill cards and add Command of the Beast. Waek as a kitten, but would get you about 1 vp on every table you play. To make the deck last, add 6 Deflections. Blimey, this could work!!! Anyone got 10 Daring the Dawns for trade? ;-) DH [ quoted text not captured ] > > DH > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > -- > PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: > On The First Day Of Gehenna > The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent > And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky > Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise > [ quoted text not captured ]

Surely, but then I couldn't call the deck "Return to Normal!!!" Really, the "proper" version of this would have Ohanna in as the vampire and have 1 Gideon Fontain, 1 Bewitching Oration, and a Mark of the Damned!!! Or have Royce, Ohanna, Christine Bosacci, Samson, and Mustapha Ramin (or whatever that Tremere is called) repeated as the crypt, ditch all but 2 of the Dominate skill cards and add Command of the Beast. Weak as a kitten, but would get you about 1 vp on every table you play. [ quoted text not captured ] ;-) DH [ quoted text not captured ] > > DH > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > -- > PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: > On The First Day Of Gehenna > The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent > And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky > Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise > [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > Classic 10 bleed deck - bring out Normal, Tap parthenon to give him > fortitude and dominate, bleed using Daring the Dawn to get it through, > burn Normal, bring out another normal (repeat and fade)... You forgot to give Normal the Soul Gem. -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "And all the while I'm thinking things that I can never share with him. I'm a bundle of confusion, yet it has a strange appeal. Did it all begin with him and the way he makes me feel?"

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0010191327550.1009- 100...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Classic 10 bleed deck - bring out Normal, Tap parthenon to give him > > fortitude and dominate, bleed using Daring the Dawn to get it through, > > burn Normal, bring out another normal (repeat and fade)... > > You forgot to give Normal the Soul Gem. Nice cheap way of getting the extra Normals for free and therefore replaces the Effective Managements, freeing up master phase actions! *sound of 3 cards being pulled out of deck, and 1 card being inserted* Of course, it won't get the free Normal because they are all the same capacity. Hmmm... I think I have a cunning plan... [ quoted text not captured ]

> Of course, it won't get the free Normal because they are all the same > capacity. > ummm..... you're adding fortitude and dominate masters... thus increasing his capacity... right? Cameron [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8smtbn$ufo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, inr...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > Of course, it won't get the free Normal because they are all the same > > capacity. > > > > ummm..... you're adding fortitude and dominate masters... thus > increasing his capacity... right? Oh yeah. Wow!! Actually, this is a bad thing, because if if he is ready in someone elses turn, that makes him a phenominal target! If he gets torporised, it is game over for this deck - it loses it's speed. *sound of SGoE getting removed and 1 Malkavian Rider clause and 1 Rumours of Gehenna and 3 Effective managements being slipped in instead* Incidentally, LSJ, If a Normal with discipline cards and the Soul Gem was burned and brought back another Normal, would the NRA ruling apply? And also, is a Golconda "removal from play" considered burning? [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > Of course, it won't get the free Normal because they are all the same > capacity. But you added two skill cards, thus upping the capacity. Hence, you have a 4 capacity Normal being burned, which is replaced by a 2 capacity Normal. (So it works when the skill cards are there.) The use of minion cards for extra capacity, a la Camarilla Vitae Slave, is what makes the Aurora Van Brande deck so funny in concept. All the vampires have an extra capacity, and the minion card is passed over. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8smukp$vj7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <8smtbn$ufo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > inr...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > > > > Of course, it won't get the free Normal because they are all the > same > > > capacity. > > > > > > > ummm..... you're adding fortitude and dominate masters... thus > > increasing his capacity... right? > > Oh yeah. Wow!! > > Actually, this is a bad thing, because if if he is ready in someone > elses turn, that makes him a phenominal target! > > If he gets torporised, it is game over for this deck - it loses it's > speed. Yeah probably > > *sound of SGoE getting removed and 1 Malkavian Rider clause and 1 > Rumours of Gehenna and 3 Effective managements being slipped in > instead* > > Incidentally, LSJ, If a Normal with discipline cards and the Soul Gem > was burned and brought back another Normal, would the NRA ruling apply? > I don't think so, because when you use a Giovanni to bring back a burnt vampire, he doesn't remember what he'd done that turn, so the 'new' normal wont remember what old normal had done. > And also, is a Golconda "removal from play" considered burning? > > DH dont know, kind of hope not, until i get a golconda anyway. Cameron [ quoted text not captured ]

> The use of minion cards for extra capacity, a la Camarilla Vitae Slave, is > what makes the Aurora Van Brande deck so funny in concept. All the > vampires have an extra capacity, and the minion card is passed over. > lack of sabbat == lack of understanding, what is the Aurora deck? Cameron [ quoted text not captured ]

> > The use of minion cards for extra capacity, a la Camarilla Vitae > Slave, is > > what makes the Aurora Van Brande deck so funny in concept. All the > > vampires have an extra capacity, and the minion card is passed over. > > > > lack of sabbat == lack of understanding, what is the Aurora deck? Aurora Van Brande is a Lasombra vampire with a relatively diverse spread of disciplines (has OBT pot dom for). I think the concept referred to here is that you tool Aurora up with a Camarilla Vitae Slave ( which increases the capacity of the vampire by 1 and allows the vampire to have any discipline he or she has at superior) and add loads of discipline cards. I suppose Auroras "Partner" in this deck would be Ian Forrestal, who has this ability at basic! [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8smv36$2b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, inr...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > The use of minion cards for extra capacity, a la Camarilla Vitae > Slave, is > > what makes the Aurora Van Brande deck so funny in concept. All the > > vampires have an extra capacity, and the minion card is passed over. > > > > lack of sabbat == lack of understanding, what is the Aurora deck? Recycling Aurora 12 copies of Aurora Van Brande as the crypt some Camarilla Vitae Slaves some Freak Drives some Soul Gems some Force of Wills some Conditionings some Daring the Dawns Get Aurora into play. Get a CVS. Freak Drive. Get a Soul Gem. Force of Will with Conditioning and Daring the Dawn to burn Aurora, and trigger the Soul Gem. Repeat until all 12 Auroras are burned, and you have swept the table. Usually in one turn if you don't jam your hand, and own the required cards in sufficient quantity. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8smv06$vvf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, D. Hammond wrote: > And also, is a Golconda "removal from play" considered burning? No. It is considered removal from play. Playing Golconda on a vampire will not trigger the Soul Gem of Etrius. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8smukp$vj7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <8smtbn$ufo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > inr...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > > > > Of course, it won't get the free Normal because they are all the > same > > > capacity. > > > > > > > ummm..... you're adding fortitude and dominate masters... thus > > increasing his capacity... right? > > Oh yeah. Wow!! > > Actually, this is a bad thing, because if if he is ready in someone > elses turn, that makes him a phenominal target! > > If he gets torporised, it is game over for this deck - it loses it's > speed. > > *sound of SGoE getting removed and 1 Malkavian Rider clause and 1 > Rumours of Gehenna and 3 Effective managements being slipped in > instead* > > Incidentally, LSJ, If a Normal with discipline cards and the Soul Gem > was burned and brought back another Normal, would the NRA ruling apply? No, because he is not the same minion. > > And also, is a Golconda "removal from play" considered burning? No. Don't even think about Golconda-ing Normal, you don't want to include THAT many skill cards: Golconda: Inner Peace (Jyhad, V:TES) Master Master. Only usable on a vampire with a capacity above 7. <= !!!!! {Remove the vampire from play}. His or her controller gains pool equal to the vampire's capacity. The controller may cancel this card by burning 2 pool. I think the change on Golconda was brought along by abusive pool-gain monstroities like this: bring out Anson, play skill card, equip with soul gem. Next round Minion Tap and Golconda. Regards Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich "Our hearts discern wild images of Death, Shadows and shoals that edge eternity." [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8sn0ai$15p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] Wow! Potential sweep in (best case) turn 2 or (worst case) turn 3. Of course, Soul Gem, CVS, Freak Drive, and Daring the Dawn are all very rare. Anyone able to do a deal? ;-) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 inr...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Incidentally, LSJ, If a Normal with discipline cards and the Soul Gem > > was burned and brought back another Normal, would the NRA ruling > apply? > > > > I don't think so, because when you use a Giovanni to bring back a burnt > vampire, he doesn't remember what he'd done that turn, so the 'new' > normal wont remember what old normal had done. Indeed. A vampire in the ash-heap forgets everything about him/herself, including NRA restrictions, and NRA functions based on a copy of a card, not based on vampire name. The new vampire didn't take any actions, so would be fine. [ quoted text not captured ]

<snip> > I think the change on Golconda was brought along by abusive pool-gain > monstroities like this: bring out Anson, play skill card, equip with soul > gem. Next round Minion Tap and Golconda. and the play Redeem the Lost Soul. Damn, I was counting on that! [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > Aurora Van Brande is a Lasombra vampire with a relatively diverse > spread of disciplines (has OBT pot dom for). I think the concept > referred to here is that you tool Aurora up with a Camarilla Vitae > Slave ( which increases the capacity of the vampire by 1 and allows the > vampire to have any discipline he or she has at superior) and add loads > of discipline cards. Actually, it involves tooling up with a Camarilla Vitae Slave and doing nasty things involving costly blood cards and aggravated damage from Daring the Dawn, along with a Soul Gem and, I think, Force of Will. You spend so much blood that all the aggravated damages burns the vampire. Camarilla Vitae Slave moves across with the Soul Gem power, since it's a minion card, and allows you to do it again. And again. And again. Very vulnerable to bad card flow and bounce, but funny nonetheless. [ quoted text not captured ]

inr...@my-deja.com wrote: > hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Incidentally, LSJ, If a Normal with discipline cards and the Soul Gem > > was burned and brought back another Normal, would the NRA ruling apply? > > I don't think so, because when you use a Giovanni to bring back a burnt > vampire, he doesn't remember what he'd done that turn, so the 'new' > normal wont remember what old normal had done. He would not, correct. The new normal doesn't have anything to do with the old one - the amount of blood on the old one, the cards on the old one, the actions of the old one - all are forgotten. The new Normal has a clean slate. > > And also, is a Golconda "removal from play" considered burning? > > dont know, kind of hope not, until i get a golconda anyway. Removal from play is not burning. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> You spend so much blood that all the aggravated damages burns the > vampire. Camarilla Vitae Slave moves across with the Soul Gem power, > since it's a minion card, and allows you to do it again. And again. And > again. Are you certain? The only thing that goes to the new vamp is the Soul Gem as per card text and I do not see any errata saying anything to the contrary. LSJ? Sorrow --- "Are they dead?" - Pugsly "Does it matter?" - Wednesday

> > Aurora Van Brande is a Lasombra vampire with a relatively diverse > > spread of disciplines (has OBT pot dom for). I think the concept > > referred to here is that you tool Aurora up with a Camarilla Vitae > > Slave ( which increases the capacity of the vampire by 1 and allows the > > vampire to have any discipline he or she has at superior) and add loads > > of discipline cards. > > Actually, it involves tooling up with a Camarilla Vitae Slave and doing > nasty things involving costly blood cards and aggravated damage from > Daring the Dawn, along with a Soul Gem and, I think, Force of Will. > > You spend so much blood that all the aggravated damages burns the > vampire. Camarilla Vitae Slave moves across with the Soul Gem power, > since it's a minion card, and allows you to do it again. And again. And > again. > > Very vulnerable to bad card flow and bounce, but funny nonetheless. > They just die laughing... thanks for the explain. Cameron [ quoted text not captured ]

Sorrow wrote: > > > You spend so much blood that all the aggravated damages burns the > > vampire. Camarilla Vitae Slave moves across with the Soul Gem power, > > since it's a minion card, and allows you to do it again. And again. And > > again. > > Are you certain? The only thing that goes to the new vamp is the Soul > Gem as per card text and I do not see any errata saying anything to the > contrary. > LSJ? Right. The Soul Gem moves. All other cards on the burned vampire are burned. (Except as allowed by card text - Death Pact or Charnas the Imp, for example). [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Sorrow wrote: > Are you certain? The only thing that goes to the new vamp is the Soul > Gem as per card text and I do not see any errata saying anything to the > contrary. Sorry, my apologies. I was forgetting that the first action of the second vampire was used to recruit another Vitae Slave, and thought the Slave was being passed over. [ quoted text not captured ]