[LSJ] Flicking Bleeds

LSJ, I have previously, in tournaments, had ruled that Flicks cannot be played once you begin to remove pool even if modifiers are later played. I understand the base situation is that a player can react to any action modifier. But is there a point where they can declare they are not flicking a bleed that cannot be retracted (like the No Blocks point)

[ quoted text not captured ] You've ruled wrong. When we get to phase where no Deflections can be played, no action modifiers to increase the bleed can be played either. Not flicking is not a binding decision. Not flicking is not a decision in itself, it's more like declaring "I'll pass", which always leaves a window to play additional reactions after something changes the situation.

[ quoted text not captured ] As noted elsewhere - the 'I am done making block attempts' is a binding decision, that doesn't prevent further modifiers. There is no 'decide if you are redirecting a bleed' step in the rules. In fact, if the acting player has let it get to the 'remove pool' stage, they actually cannot then add another modifier to it. Because the sequencing is this (once blocks have been declined): 1) Acting player plays any and all modifiers he wants to. Then passes priority. 2) Reacting player either a) passes or b) plays a single reaction (including bounce). If 2a), then both players have passed, neither player can play further modifiers or reactions and it resolves. If 2b), then priority passes back to the acting player; go to 1) again. So if the acting player says "do you bounce it", he must be passing priority to the next player; if that person says "no", they do not get to then go back and play more bleed-increasing action modifiers, because we're in an "all-pass" (assuming no other player wants to react either.) (LSJ addresses this in this thread: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/baa358cfa16945c3/e489b6a5a3fcbf6?q=pass+modify+bounce+author:lsj#0e489b6a5a3fcbf6) -John Flournoy

[ quoted text not captured ] This is a silly question, and one which gets asked too many times. It revolves around the fact that people seem to think of "reaching for pool" or "picking up pool counters" as some kind of game event. It is not and never has been. The fundamental concept is priority. If someone is acting, they have priority. If they do nothing and pass priority, their prey has priority. If they do nothing and pass priority, other players receive priority (in case someone wants to Eagle Sight or Folderol or whatever). If nobody does anything with that priority, that's it. Bleed resolves. (or block resolves, or whatever is currently happening). E.g. acting: "I bleed you." prey: "Not blocking. Anybody else blocking? No? Ok, action is unblocked." acting: "ok not playing anything." (here he has *passed priority*) prey: "not playing anything." (if you want to be proper you should then check if any other players are playing reaction cards but it is extremely rare especially after blocks are resolved) Bang! Action resolves. Nobody gets to do squat. Nobody gets to pump, nobody gets to flick. "Reaching for pool" or "picking up counters" is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is whether people have A) played cards or B) not played cards. If you pass priority, you are saying "I am not playing any cards." If nobody else does, you don't then get to. If you have cards you want to play, play them. In the above scenario, the prey "reaching for pool" doesn't reset priority to the acting player, allowing them to play a conditioning. If he had a conditioning he wanted to play, he should have played it. If he is "fishing" or "searching" for a flick to see whether to pump or not, and the player doesn't play any reaction cards, too bad. No pump for you.

[ quoted text not captured ] JH, not to sound rude, but I'd like to hear from LSJ on this.

On Nov 17, 4:21 pm, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote: > LSJ, > > I have previously, in tournaments, had ruled that Flicks cannot be > played once you begin to remove pool even if modifiers are later > played. You have ruled wrong. If action modifiers can be played then the action has not resolved, and reactions may be played.

[ quoted text not captured ] I didn't rule this myself, others made this ruling. I want confirmation from LSJ, thanks.

[ quoted text not captured ] The way you wrote it was "I have <edit> had ruled that Flicks cannot be played...", which makes it look like you are the one doing the ruling.

[ quoted text not captured ] It's okay Norm, not offended. Got other people to get angry at, like the local phone company.

[ quoted text not captured ] IMHO if you are removing pool and other player decides to do something about it then the action has changed... if they modified the action then you can react to it. If your predator/player bleeding you, etc, decides to play a AM to suck more pool, then you can bounce, unless if you refused to do so for that action. If someone else decides to mess with the action with Anneke, or someother minion with folderol, eagle sight, you are not binded to remove pool. You started to do so based on your hand, you cannot evaluate all the variables on the table (you may try). Now if I ask how much and get the answer "only one for now", and I say "in that case I will not deflect", its for the bleed of one, not for something different... and if I start to remove the counters and cannot flick the bleed, then its only fair that the other player cannot play action modifiers as well...

[ quoted text not captured ] He may not reply, because the original question doesn't even make sense from a rules point of view. As I stated above, there are no VTES rules regarding what does or does not happen upon the event of "reaching for pool counters" or "touching / picking up pool counters", because those are not described game events; more specifically, there are no rules around those events. There ARE rules around priority and the passing of priority. If you ask a question around that then he might answer, but once you understand that it is in fact all about priority and the passing thereof, not about whether your hand is or is not touching pool counters, you probably don't need to ask the question.

[ quoted text not captured ] Perhaps the case that you're describing is this: Acting Meth bleeds for 1. Defending Meth says "no blocks." Acting Meth says "no modifiers." Defending Meth reaches for pool and is in the process of putting it in the blood bank. Acting Meth plays Freak Drive. At that point, if the Defending Meth says, "Actually, I changed my mind, I'm going to bounce the bleed," I can understand why a judge might rule that the defending Meth must take the bleed, since the acting meth believed that the defender tacitly declared "no reactions" by taking the pool. The acting meth revealed additional information (like the fact that he was going to play a freak drive), which changed the mind of the defender. The situation I just described is different from the situation related to "before the bleed resolves" Action Modifiers, below. I think the more likely case that you're describing, is this: Acting Meth bleeds for 1. Defending meth says "no blocks", reaches for 1 pool and puts it in the blood bank. Acting Meth says, "I play Conditioning." At this point, the defending Meth can certainly bounce the bleed (IANLSJ, but I'm certain.) The defending meth could also be warned about rushing through the steps, which are correctly: a) Acting Meth bleeds for 1. b) Defending meth says "no blocks. Do you modify it any?" c) Acting Meth plays conditioning or not. d) Defending meth bounces or not. e) Acting Meth plays Freak Drive. I hope this helps! Ira

[ quoted text not captured ] Correct. (Otherwise, reaching for your pool would preclude other bleed modifiers as well).

> Correct. (Otherwise, reaching for your pool would preclude other bleed modifiers > as well). Thanks LSJ. That's what I wanted to know primarily. Clearly that has been ruled incorrectly around my playgroup at tournaments in the past, I'll make sure to try correct around other players it in the future.

[ quoted text not captured ] Note that there are a *few* adjustments to the bleed amount that happen *as the bleed is resolving*, though - Dis Pater, a resolving Spying Mission, Andre LeRoux (an increase if it's happening on his own bleed), possibly some other vampire abilities - that DO take place after reactions can be played. - D.J.

On Nov 18, 2:56 pm, Meej <dj...@comcast.net> wrote: > Note that there are a *few* adjustments to the bleed amount that > happen *as the bleed is resolving*, though - Dis Pater, a resolving > Spying Mission, Andre LeRoux (an increase if it's happening on his own > bleed), possibly some other vampire abilities - that DO take place > after reactions can be played. > > - D.J.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - And of course AI to reduce the bleed to zero.....