OFFICIAL VEKN GIOVANNI NEWSLETTER Vol.III No.6 June.2001

OFFICIAL VEKN GIOVANNI NEWSLETTER Vol.III No.6 June.2001 In this Issue: INTRODUCTION: First Impressions of Final Nights WHISPERS FROM THE DEAD: On Newsletters VAMPIRES OF THE MONTH: Isabel and Regina, the Left AND Right Hands! CARD OF THE MONTH: Shambling Hoooordes! DECK OF THE MONTH: Kooky Kutters CONCLUSION/PREVIEW ================================================================ INTRODUCTION: First Impressions of Final Nights ================================================================ Final(ly) Nights is here! And many would agree that the Necromancers have come out as the "most improved" and "most competitive" of the bunch. Certainly those Snakes have crept up as well, and we need to watch our back from the Assassins and our wallets from the Gypsies, but I expect to have some much more tournament competitive decks coming out the Giovanni. As with the Bi^H^HScribe of the Assamites also said, there's SO much new stuff, it's hard to decide what to concentrate on. I said I'd go over last months wish list, and concentrate on the vampires, since it would take a while to digest the new cards. Changed my mind. I'll pick on the vampires as they become relevant to the Deck of the Month, and ditto with the cards. There are quite a lot of new possibilities, but I'll give some first impressions, that I'll flesh out in later months with some more play experience. ============== THE NEW VAMPS: ============== I won't list them all here, but here's a confusing diagram that sums up the Giovanni before Final Nights: 3 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 7 8 10 n/N n n N n n n n n N n N N N d/D D d d D d D D p/P p p p p p P P p P and after: 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6 7 7 7 8 8 8 9 10 10 11 n/N n n N n n N n n n N n N N N n N N N N N N d/D d D D d D d D D D d D D d D D D D p/P p p p P p p p p P p P P P p P P P P P If you look at it a bit, it makes sense. Some things to note from this: * DOM/NEC, previously on the one 8-cap and one 10-cap, is now found on 8 Giovanni, including a 5 and two 7's. Call of the Hungry Dead, Seduction, and The Sleeping Mind in various mixes will make those cool Necromancy actions (and bleed actions) go through. * NEC/POT, previously on the 7-cap and the 10-cap, is not found on another 7-cap, an 8-cap, and up. Don't expect Soul Stealing to become a big thing. Of course, with Daemonic Possession, you get the body AND the Soul, so who cares? * 3 new vamps with no Necromancy at all, and 9 Giovanni with inferior. But, there's always the Sargon Fragment. * If you squint at the diagram, you see similar empty "holes" in the "discipline-space" before and after. 2-caps aside, Final Nights has atoned for Ancient Hearts by adding solid, in-clan disciplined vamps, i.e., few NEW holes. * I don't know that the game needed another 2-cap Potence weenie, and I'm pretty sure it didn't need another 2-cap Dominate weenie, and I expect to see these two vamps make appearances in FAR more NON-Giovanni decks than Giovanni decks. * There are 6 vamps now (Enzo, Ambrogino, Marianna, Patrizia, Uncle Ian, and Qadir?) that have Tha/Nec. Weird, but fun. Magic of the Smith with new "Get NEC" and "Get THA" items makes it cuter, and Ex Nihilo/Weather Control starts to actually get mean. ============== THE NEW CARDS: ============== Again, I won't list them *all*, but some of the cards that help the most: * Charisma. I never said I was sticking to the Giovanni only cards, but take the clan with the best set of allies and toss this card in? I personally can't wait to have a Charismatic Regina use the Path of Bone to get some FREE Shambling Hordes. * Path of Bone. Sure, you've got to defend it, but having cheap Masquers and free Spectral Divinations makes good intercept/Obedience walls out of those new Old Farts. * Puppeteer: Obviously, you can make decks around these guys, such as the recent incorporation into Noal's MindRape/Rave/ForceOfWill deck. I would also point out that they're non-unique allies that only cost 1 pool, and so make *excellent* blockers, not unlike I've often used Leonardo. * Shroud Mastery: Wallpaper, but I'll take them off your hands, cheap. =) * Shambling Hordes: I'm quite certain it was SUPPOSED to say "+1 strength and +1 fun for each life counter," but nobody at WW will admit it. * Daemonic Possession: Very cool, for a number of reasons. It'll be featured in next months newsletter(s), but first I want to playtest and examine it relative to Graverobbing. (Q: In practice, is it easier for the Giovanni to torporize or burn vamps?) ================================================================ WHISPERS FROM THE DEAD: On Newsletters ================================================================ Digression. What's a newsletter about? Officially, from the NL FAQ: "A) Just about anything on the topic of your clan or the game. Some of the things that have been included in past Newsletters include: Deck designs Clan strategy Discipline overviews Library Card overviews Crypt Card overviews Vampire fiction" But many newsletter editors would tell you it's "whatever I feel like writing," thought they stick to V:TES related material, usually. (Leggy and his Diablo II fiction aside, of course. =) This is especially true for "tried and true" clans like most of the Camarilla. However, some of the best reading in the newsletters are the more general sections. Often, it's an idea that's been brewing about the editor's head and needed to get written up formally to make it gel. Extra-special Kudos to Rob Treasure and Wes for keeping "old" clan newsletters fresh, and apologies to those newsletter editors who do the same, but that I failed to mention by name. However, we're just the *editors* of the newsletters, but that usually becomes "writer." Often the contributions to the Newsletters are decks, but certianly more than that can be contributed. I expect people to have lots of new ideas and thoughts on the Independents now, and they should certainly feel free to pass along ideas to the appropriate newsletter. More general thoughts on the game can always be posted to the newsgroup in general, but some of these editors (again, especially the Camarilla ones) are pretty short on material, and the occasional small essay on deckbuilding, table manipulations, or whatever might fill out a newsletter a lot better. That aside, I imagine I'll have lots to keep me full of ideas for a while to come, both Giovanni and the occasional "driving question." But I'm quite open to input, and do my job as the "editor" instead of the "writer." ================================================================ VAMPIRES OF THE MONTH: Isabel and Regina, the Left AND Right Hands! ================================================================ Isabel Giovanni 5-cap, DOM NEC pot This girl is going to the backbone of just about every Giovanni deck. A bargain at 5-cap with 5 points of in-clan disciplines, she's the Raven, the Felicia, the Ranjan of the Giovanni. Of most importance is being a 5-cap with NEC, small enough to get early, but with enough blood to pay for all those cards, unlike poor Rudolpho, who hunts a lot. Regina Giovanni, the Right Hand of Augustus 10-cap, aus DOM for NEC POT, 2 votes, -1 blood/pool for allies or retainers. With the addition of Felix, Brigette, Masquers, and the Hordes, Regina's special becomes worth her cost. Especially with goodies like Charisma and the Path of Bone floating about. ================================================================ CARDS OF THE MONTH: Shambling Hoooordes! (...well, and Charisma) ================================================================ Shambling Hordes 3 Blood. (2 with the Path, or Charisma, or Regina. 1 with any two of the three!) Ally: 3 or 4 life/strength/fun, (D) Rush action, wither away, yada yada. The most UNunique ally in the game. If you've got one horde, you've got more. Excellent to have with "Night of the Living Dead" moaning sounds as they take actions. Charisma Reduce the cost of all ally/retainer recruit actions by 1 pool or blood. I know the card doesn't have a "G" on the side edge, but it might as well. This card was MADE for the Giovanni, who have always been strong on allies. Now, not only can you Compel Scapelli or Ambrosius back for 0 blood with the Path, but you can get him out for only 2 pool in the first place! However, the most amusing "abuse" is of course, making hordes of Hordes for 1 blood... ================================================================ DECK OF THE MONTH: Kooky Kutters ================================================================ Well, 3 weeks, and a set is just *old*. I mean, who hasn't already played their typical, no-brainer, Shambling Hordes deck? Already labeled as a "cookie cutter" deck, even. However, with every Shambling Hordes deck being like every other, it would seem to be easy to break the deck down into it's component Modules. (Really, treating it more as a box of assorted cookies than a single cut cookie =) Deck Name: Kooky Kutters Created by: Pat Ricochet Description: Your typical "cookie cutter" Shambling Hordes deck. Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 4, Max: 4, Avg: 1] 2 Andreas Giovanni (DOM NEC pot vic, Giovanni, 7) 2 Carlotta Giovanni (dom NEC obf POT, Giovanni, 7) 1 Pochtli (cel dom NEC OBF POT, Giovanni, 8) 1 Enzo Giovanni (ani DOM NEC pot tha, Giovanni, 8) 1 Gillespi Giovanni (aus DOM NEC POT, Giovanni, 7) 2 Isabel Giovanni (DOM NEC pot, Giovanni, 5) 3 Regina Giovanni (aus DOM for NEC POT, Giovanni, 10, 2 votes) Library: (90 cards) "Shambling Mega Module" 15 Shambling Hordes 10 Rave 1 Charisma 1 Tower of London 2 Path of Bone, The "Blood Gain Module" 5 Blood Doll 1 Leonardo, Mortician 1 Morgue Hunting Ground "Stealth Module" 10 Spectral Divination 5 Call of the Hungry Dead 2 Giuseppe, Gravedigger "Bounce Module" 5 Wake with Evening's Freshness 5 Deflection "Block Module" 5 Forced Awakening 5 Obedience "Recycling Module" 5 Summon Soul 1 Whispers from the Dead 2 Compel the Spirit "Ambrosius gets a Meat Hook Module" 2 Ambrosius, The Ferryman (Wraith) 1 Meat Hook "Maybe actually oust someone this game Module" 5 Govern the Unaligned "That One in Every Deck Card" 1 Haunt First time I took it for a spin, I got Charisma on Isabel fairly early, but took a while to get the Hordes out, being unable to cycle cards well. I later got out Regina and the Path of Bone out. Being able to play 2 Hordes for 1 blood each was GREAT fun. The KEY card in this deck is Rave. It solves both "drawbacks" to the Hordes at once. It gets them into your ash heap for the next one, and gets at least one blood back onto the vamp so you can make the Hordes cheap. By mid-game, I was putting 2 blood back onto the vamps and paying 1 to get a new Horde. With Blood Dolls on all 3 vamps I had out, I was acutally *gaining* *pool*, rather than "hemmoraging blood" with this deck. I did rely somewhat on the *threat* of big bleed to let my Rave actions go, despite having fairly few bleed cards. Never underestimate the power of misinformation: One Govern+Stealth+Call of the Grateful Dead bleed kept my prey waiting for "the bomb." Andrea rocks here, but I'm saving him for next newsletter. =) Yes, Ambrosius got the Meat Hook. First game, I had 3 decks at the table with no Potence, actually; and it's not as odd as it sounds. ~140 out of ~400 vamps have Potence, about a third. But not a third of all DECKS have Potence, because decks don't take vamps randomly from the choices. Unless you deck uses potence or is a potence clan(6/20), most of your guys won't have Potence. Overall, I LOVE the Hordes. I do think they're of limited usefulness in limited numbers. You could trim it down a bit, drop to 10 Hordes and ~6 Rave and pack some more bleed (especially if you were playing the "same" deck the following week =) or whatever else. But the Hordes/Rave Combo (I highly recommend Raving when at 2 blood) is better in large numbers. One game, the Hordes went into "the bonegrinder" of Carrion Crows and Aid from Bats, but they did Horde enough to run her out of combat cards, and then get pounding to eventually torp them all and get the oust. ================================================================ CONCLUSION/PREVIEW ================================================================ Well, I've "just a few" ideas for future newsletters. Expect SOME form of a Daemonic Possession deck coming up next month; probably one that Wes and I are working on together. I'm VERY pleased with how Final Nights came out, both overall and for the Giovanni in particular. Kudos to Todd Banister and L. Scott Johnson for the design. (And, the more I look at and actually play with the cards, I'm pleased with the art, even Cristopher Shy's stuff that I disliked so much in SW.) And, for the many people who can now play with all the new Giovanni vamps and toys, both "for fun" and "to win," Welcome to the Family! -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

> * There are 6 vamps now (Enzo, Ambrogino, Marianna, Patrizia, Uncle Ian, and > Qadir?) that have Tha/Nec. Weird, but fun. Magic of the Smith with new > "Get NEC" and "Get THA" items makes it cuter, and Ex Nihilo/Weather Control > starts to actually get mean. > I love this idea about using Magic of the Smith to get the NEC and THA items. For that matter, I don't know why I never thought to use it this way before... it will also work well to find that Ankara Citidel... oh the ideas are growing.. Thanks...Tig

[ quoted text not captured ] Don't forget you can use it to get the POT and OBF items too (though I've never seen it done). And yes, it works great with Ankara Citadel and any other loquipment. You can Magic for a Palatial Estate if you want consistent blood. Or in a Tremere/!Tremere vote deck you can have a high-cap Magic of the Smith for the Lyndhurst Estate for poor man's Awe effect. Magic of the Smith works wonders in equipment decks. Besides Magic'ing for the equipment you can also fetch a Pier 13 for even faster speed. And all of the above Magic of the Smith combos can be done even faster if you're playing !Tremere and you use the Spirit Summoning Chamber... Halcyan 2

> OFFICIAL VEKN GIOVANNI NEWSLETTER Vol.III No.6 June.2001 (snip) Great newsletter! I was thinking around the same lines, and now got a few more idea to toss around... > * Daemonic Possession: Very cool, for a number of reasons. It'll be > featured in next months newsletter(s), but first I want to playtest and > examine it relative to Graverobbing. (Q: In practice, is it easier for the > Giovanni to torporize or burn vamps?) Mmm. Shambling Hordes / Potence cards with Amaranth/Garotte? Should be fairly easy to burn, but I never tried it. > "Shambling Mega Module" > 15 Shambling Hordes > 10 Rave > "Recycling Module" > 5 Summon Soul In greater numbers, inf Summon Soul could also be used to replenish those Vamps without burning the Allies. As much worth in blood than Hunting with Inbase Discotek, I know. You would also need more (different) Allies in the Ash Heap (through discarding?) for the Hordes. Just my two cents!

[ quoted text not captured ] Just make sure to have at least *2* Ankara Citadels in your deck. You can't Magic of the Smith (with the +3 stealth) a card from your hand, and it sucks to have your one copy in your opening hand. And +1 stealth equip actions get blocked way too much. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

>> OFFICIAL VEKN GIOVANNI NEWSLETTER Vol.III No.6 June.2001 > > (snip) > > Great newsletter! Thanks! > I was thinking around the same lines, and now got a > few more idea to toss around... > >> * Daemonic Possession: Very cool, for a number of reasons. It'll be >> featured in next months newsletter(s), but first I want to playtest and >> examine it relative to Graverobbing. (Q: In practice, is it easier for the >> Giovanni to torporize or burn vamps?) > > Mmm. Shambling Hordes / Potence cards with Amaranth/Garotte? Should be > fairly easy to burn, but I never tried it. Right, but all those effects send the guy to torpor, and then burn them on the way. Why take the extra card/trick to burn them and then take a 2 blood, 0-stealth action to steal them(DP), instead of just simply torporizing them and Graverobbing them? (a 0 or 2 blood, zero stealth action). A few reasons: * Inferior Necromancy gives an effect similar to superior Graverobbing. * Superior Necromancy lets the new guy act right away. * If you get blocked, the torped guy can be rescued. The burned guy is either yours, or no ones. The question I'm pondering is "Is it worth the extra work to burn guys, to use Daemonic Possession over Graverobbing?" I have figured that the 2 blood cost is totally worth it. A rescue or superior Graverobbing also cost 2 blood, and you can Path of Bone the Daemonic Possession. Also depends how you burn them. Jar the Soul/Baleful Doll/Society of Leopold with DP would be the mono-Nec way to go. (Don't forget to Grasp the Dolls back. =) >> "Shambling Mega Module" >> 15 Shambling Hordes >> 10 Rave > >> "Recycling Module" >> 5 Summon Soul > > In greater numbers, inf Summon Soul could also be used to replenish > those Vamps without burning the Allies. As much worth in blood than > Hunting with Inbase Discotek, I know. You would also need more > (different) Allies in the Ash Heap (through discarding?) for the > Hordes. Well, my vamps all have NEC, and for me, having a NEC vamp take an action to "gain 2 blood" is a wasted action. (Similarly, I consider 5-cap and up playing Restoration for only 2 blood a waste). My idea also is that a Horde that punches for 3 or 4 is rockin'. A Horded that punches for 2 or 1 isn't so great. He's worth more to me as blood for a fresh one (i.e. me being up a blood instead of the opponent down a blood). Also, you can Rave a Hordes with 1 blood, and Compel him for that 1 blood. Kind of like an action to "add 2 life to a Horde in play," where the "action card" is the Horde in hand. I considered lots more bodies, er, allies, and getting them discarded via Barrens, Fraggy, Relentless Pursuit, Whispers, but what if I've got one in my hand? (I certainly agree that discarding is the way to go, for getting them into your ash heap. =) For the most part, I'd rather have a Shambling Horde than any other ally in my hand, mostly because the deck gains pool so slowly, so even with Charisma, the other allies are Pool I don't know that I can afford. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:B760F884.50AC%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu... [ quoted text not captured ] Hiya Pat, nice Newsletter question: can you compel a discarded card? Compel the Spirit Necro 1 blood Card Text: +1 stealth action. Only usable if a retainer or ally you control has been burned since your last turn. Move the card from your ash heap to your hand. Move the card from your ash heap to your ready region, even if this vampire doesn't meet the requirements, if any, of the card (use the normal version if it requires a Discipline). Move X life coutners from the blood bank to the card, where X is the number of life printed on the card. If a retainer is chosen, it must be played on the acting minion The key phrase in the card text would be "retainer or ally you control has been burned since your last turn." Now by the rulebook definition, burned = discard. cool, problem: was that discarded card controlled? food for thought, cuz i really wanna compel some war ghouls and mental patients -- Oscar Garza Prince of College Station Tx The Crazy Aggie

In article <B760F884.50AC%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote: > Also depends how you burn them. Jar the Soul/Baleful Doll/Society of >Leopold with DP would be the mono-Nec way to go. (Don't forget to Grasp the >Dolls back. =) If it were only possible. Grasp the Ghostly only works on equipment in another Methuselah's ash-heap, making it much, MUCH less fun. And you can't even Pier 13 it, 'cause it's unique. Summon Soul/Vast Wealth is an idea, though. gomi -- Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby

"Skippy" <ski...@tamu.edu> wrote: [huge snip] >Hiya Pat, nice Newsletter > > question: can you compel a discarded card? No. >Compel the Spirit >+1 stealth action. Only usable if a retainer or ally you control has been >burned since your last turn. > >The key phrase in the card text would be "retainer or ally you control has >been burned since your last turn." Now by the rulebook definition, burned = >discard. cool, problem: was that discarded card controlled? No. Controlled is equivalent to "in the controlled region". "You control" is equivalent to "in your controlled region". -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Skippy wrote: > [snip] > question: can you compel a discarded card? > > Compel the Spirit > Necro > 1 blood > Card Text: > +1 stealth action. Only usable if a retainer or ally you control has been > burned since your last turn. > > Move the card from your ash heap to your hand. > > Move the card from your ash heap to your ready region, even if this vampire > doesn't meet the requirements, if any, of the card (use the normal version > if it requires a Discipline). Move X life coutners from the blood bank to > the card, where X is the number of life printed on the card. If a retainer > is chosen, it must be played on the acting minion > > The key phrase in the card text would be "retainer or ally you control has > been burned since your last turn." Now by the rulebook definition, burned = > discard. cool, problem: was that discarded card controlled? No. Controlled cards are in the controlled region. Cards not inthe controlled region are not controlled. [ quoted text not captured ]

> question: can you compel a discarded card? > > Compel the Spirit > Necro > 1 blood > Card Text: > +1 stealth action. Only usable if a retainer or ally you control has been > burned since your last turn. Oscar, By card text, you cannot Compel the Spirit a card that you have discarded, since it was discarded during you last turn during the discard phase and not since your last turn. I don't know how you would handle it if it was discarded with the barrens during another Methuselah's turn. I am pretty sure that discarded cards are not "burned". LSJ? Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

X_Ze...@email.msn.com (XZealot) wrote: >> question: can you compel a discarded card? >> >> Compel the Spirit >> Necro >> 1 blood >> Card Text: >> +1 stealth action. Only usable if a retainer or ally you control has been >> burned since your last turn. > >Oscar, >By card text, you cannot Compel the Spirit a card that you have >discarded, since it was discarded during you last turn during the >discard phase and not since your last turn. I don't know how you >would handle it if it was discarded with the barrens during another >Methuselah's turn. I am pretty sure that discarded cards are not >"burned". LSJ? Discarded cards are burned. However, since Compel the Spirit requires you to have controlled the ally or retainer, it cannot be used for discards. [ quoted text not captured ]

Daemonic Possession is really fun, especially since it allows control of any burned minion. I was fortunate to get out Ambrosius, who in turn did me well by finding Talbot's Chainsaw. My prey brought out Muddled Vampire Hunter, and we thought this might spell doom. I wasn't gonna take any chances, and sent Ambrosius to kill him, and he did. I then did Daemonic Possession the same turn and had a Muddles for myself - yay. FUN NEW STUFF for the Giovanni! I also like the new vamps....

Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:<B75FE9D0.5022%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>... > Deck Name: Kooky Kutters > Created by: Pat Ricochet > Description: Your typical "cookie cutter" Shambling Hordes deck. Hi Pat, Your cookie-cutter Hordeable Shamblers deck looks a lot better than my first draft was. (had *way* too many action cards and non-Hordes allies clogging up my hand - cut seventeen cards after the first game and it ran a lot better. Also I didn't think of using Rave, which is brilliant.) I wonder a couple things, though: one, did you have any trouble with intercept? In the last game I played, after my first oust my next prey was an intercepty deck with a Gas-Powered Chainsaw (and Fortitude... I hate Fortitude...), and it definitely cramped my style. Since he was already kinda low on pool and blood, I was able to oust him too, but after that I was sitting next to *two* intercept decks, both with permanent maneuvers already on the table, and my Hordes were useless, and I was running out of cards. (ok, it was a six-player game and that probably didn't help anything either.) But anyway - it seems to me that having the Hordes-recruit actions blocked kinda sucks, and being unable to bleed until you've given your prey the full Horde treatment sucks even more. Any useful thoughts on that? I guess Potence intimidation might be helpful, except there's not really much of any room for POT when you've got so much NEC taking up almost the entire deck. I also went the opposite route on crypt from you; I figured that since I was only really using Nec and a little Dom that I should minimize the size of my vamps (they can always hunt to get up to enough blood to get more Hordes), so I was only using a few 7+ ones (2 Regina I think, 1 Carlotta, one Andrea or something like that) and four 3-caps. Worked pretty well for me (Rudolpho got Aaron's Feeding Razor and hunted for three w/Inbase Discotek after buying a Horde) but those special abilities might be nice, too... It somehow looks like you had a lot more space to put good stuff in your deck where I put crap... could be because you have a bit more practice building Giovanni decks or something. ;-) I had seven combat cards where you have none (Spiritual Intervention), and before The Cut, twelve extra hand-clogging actions, three extra hand-clogging Shroud Masteries (though I wished I had one when Ambrosius got blocked looking for the Chainsaw store), and two extra hand-clogging masters... Josh the spending-too-much-time-with-dead-things prince of washington dc

> Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message > news:<B75FE9D0.5022%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>... > >> Deck Name: Kooky Kutters >> Created by: Pat Ricochet >> Description: Your typical "cookie cutter" Shambling Hordes deck. > > Hi Pat, > > Your cookie-cutter Hordeable Shamblers deck looks a lot better > than my first draft was. (had *way* too many action cards and > non-Hordes allies clogging up my hand - cut seventeen cards after > the first game and it ran a lot better. Also I didn't think of > using Rave, which is brilliant.) Mind posting yours? I'm curious as to how "cookie cutter" the average Hordes deck is. Post the "after cutting the crap out," of course; most decks have an embarrassing first run; my Hordes deck did surprisingly well, but it sure got off to a sloooow start, and I was down to 1 pool at one point. > I wonder a couple things, though: one, did you have any trouble > with intercept? In the last game I played, after my first oust > my next prey was an intercepty deck with a Gas-Powered Chainsaw > (and Fortitude... I hate Fortitude...), and it definitely cramped > my style. Well, I had Animalism intercept in front of me and OBF weenie behind me, so the well timed Call of the Grateful Dead on the twit with 2 Raven Spies worked great. I figured 10 Divinations and 5 Calls was good enough for light intercept and/or Single-guy Wall decks, especially with 5 Summon Souls. > Since he was already kinda low on pool and blood, I > was able to oust him too, but after that I was sitting next to > *two* intercept decks, both with permanent maneuvers already on > the table, and my Hordes were useless, and I was running out of > cards. (ok, it was a six-player game and that probably didn't > help anything either.) My prey ran out of cards, actually. Animalism combat, but my Hordes did their designated job of getting chewed up (into "the bonegrinder," heh heh, I love that phrase =) BUT eating through all her combat cards. By endgame I was torping and munching (Regina having all the votes in the remaining 2 player game). 6 player game, though? I'd pack about 5 more Governs to actually do some pool damage, and probably still run out of cards. It is pretty card intensive. > But anyway - it seems to me that having the Hordes-recruit > actions blocked kinda sucks, and being unable to bleed until > you've given your prey the full Horde treatment sucks even more. > Any useful thoughts on that? I guess Potence intimidation might > be helpful, except there's not really much of any room for POT > when you've got so much NEC taking up almost the entire deck. Seduction/Sleeping Mind at Inferior/Call of the Grateful Dead. "You, you, and you don't block" is better these days than "+2 stealth is enough, right?" And, of course, Andrea rocks the house. > I also went the opposite route on crypt from you; I figured that > since I was only really using Nec and a little Dom that I should > minimize the size of my vamps (they can always hunt to get up to > enough blood to get more Hordes), so I was only using a few 7+ > ones (2 Regina I think, 1 Carlotta, one Andrea or something like > that) and four 3-caps. Worked pretty well for me (Rudolpho got > Aaron's Feeding Razor and hunted for three w/Inbase Discotek > after buying a Horde) but those special abilities might be nice, > too... I know I only put 5 in, but I wanted the Govern at Superior option, and I was considering Seduction, so I required DOM. Also, with the Rave, I was planning on never hunting, but knew that early on, I might need to pay 3 blood + 1 blood Divination + 1 blood Call = 5 cap minimum. Regina was worth her weight in gold, really. I ALMOST put the Charisma on her, just so I could get the Path later and say "I'll get this Horde for FREE! WA-Hahahahaha!! FREEeeee!" But I put in on Isabel, knowing that the 5-cap was going to need the cost reduction even more. After getting the Path out and recruiting 2 in one turn for only one blood each I got the "respectful praise" of my fellow players and spectators, such as "Ok, now that's sick," and "That's just WRONG." =) > It somehow looks like you had a lot more space to put good stuff > in your deck where I put crap... could be because you have a bit > more practice building Giovanni decks or something. ;-) Well, and since I've got a lot more Newsletters to write, I was trying to stick to as few new cards as possible in a given deck. Part of my job. =) > I had > seven combat cards where you have none (Spiritual Intervention), Hey, I had 5 Obedience! (Used ONE the whole game, though, since my predator was weenie OBF bleed...) > and before The Cut, twelve extra hand-clogging actions, three > extra hand-clogging Shroud Masteries (though I wished I had one > when Ambrosius got blocked looking for the Chainsaw store), and > two extra hand-clogging masters... Yeah, those Shroud Masteries will just clog up every deck. I'll take them off your hands cheap. ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

<snip> > > ================================================================ > WHISPERS FROM THE DEAD: On Newsletters > ================================================================ > Digression. > What's a newsletter about? Officially, from the NL FAQ: > > "A) Just about anything on the topic of your clan or the game. > Some of the things that have been included in past Newsletters include: > Deck designs > Clan strategy > Discipline overviews > Library Card overviews > Crypt Card overviews > Vampire fiction" > > But many newsletter editors would tell you it's "whatever I feel like > writing," thought they stick to V:TES related material, usually. (Leggy and > his Diablo II fiction aside, of course. =) Hey! i resemble that remark! About 80% of my fiction is OT for the clan newsletter, and so, in fact, is about 80% of the rest of the content. This is especially true for > "tried and true" clans like most of the Camarilla. However, some of the > best reading in the newsletters are the more general sections. Often, it's > an idea that's been brewing about the editor's head and needed to get > written up formally to make it gel. Extra-special Kudos to Rob Treasure and > Wes for keeping "old" clan newsletters fresh, and apologies to those > newsletter editors who do the same, but that I failed to mention by name. Yep, seconded. > > However, we're just the *editors* of the newsletters, but that usually > becomes "writer." Often the contributions to the Newsletters are decks, but > certianly more than that can be contributed. I expect people to have lots > of new ideas and thoughts on the Independents now, and they should certainly > feel free to pass along ideas to the appropriate newsletter. More general > thoughts on the game can always be posted to the newsgroup in general, but > some of these editors (again, especially the Camarilla ones) are pretty > short on material, and the occasional small essay on deckbuilding, table > manipulations, or whatever might fill out a newsletter a lot better. i find that begging and stealing work REALLY well. Recently i have panhandled or stolen decks from Pierre Rebstock, Matt Green [2], Eolis, Martin Cubberley and Robert Doktorow. Pretty much every idea in the !Gangrel NL is stolen from somebody i was talking to at a tournament, and often that somebody is Rob Treasure or William Lee; alternatively, the newsgroup is the idea-equivalent of a flash car parked with the keys in the ignition. i commend these tactics to the less-scrupulous of my NL-writing brethren and sistern. Ahem. > > That aside, I imagine I'll have lots to keep me full of ideas for a > while to come, both Giovanni and the occasional "driving question." But I'm > quite open to input, and do my job as the "editor" instead of the "writer." > Alright, well i will send you a Giovanni toolbox deck for your next NL. Although i goggled with the best of them at the FN giovanni cards when they came out i didn't start playing with the Spaghetti-sucking corpse-fucking crimbos until last weekend's Southampton sealed-deck where [slightly tweaked] they swept. Took them [additionally tweaked] for a second spin last night and attracted MANY sour comments from Sarah [Tzimisce with a sprinkling of dominate] and Michael [Ravnos deck which Always Wins, henceforth Ravnos deck which USUALLY wins], eg "Is that a tournament-quality deck?", "That deck is FAR too good at bleeding" and [overheard while Sarah was kissing michael goodnight] "The only way we're going to win is to gang up on Daddy". This deck is commons/uncommons only if you don't count things like Dreams which were in the precon, so it is easy to clone and VERY sweet to play.

legb...@my-deja.com (legbiter) wrote in message news:<68f2e9f8.01070...@posting.google.com>... <snip> > i find that begging and stealing work REALLY well. Recently i have > panhandled or stolen decks from Pierre Rebstock, Matt Green [2], > Eolis, Martin Cubberley and Robert Doktorow. Pretty much every idea in > the !Gangrel NL is stolen from somebody i was talking to at a > tournament, and often that somebody is Rob Treasure or William Lee; > alternatively, the newsgroup is the idea-equivalent of a flash car > parked with the keys in the ignition. i commend these tactics to the > less-scrupulous of my NL-writing brethren and sistern. Ahem. <snip> > Although i goggled with the best of them at the FN giovanni cards > when they came out i didn't start playing with the Spaghetti-sucking > corpse-fucking crimbos until last weekend's Southampton sealed-deck > where [slightly tweaked] they swept. Took them [additionally tweaked] > for a second spin last night and attracted MANY sour comments from > Sarah [Tzimisce with a sprinkling of dominate] and Michael [Ravnos > deck which Always Wins, henceforth Ravnos deck which USUALLY wins], eg > "Is that a tournament-quality deck?", "That deck is FAR too good at > bleeding" <snip> Speaking of begging and stealing... Would Michael be interested in donating this deck to the NG? Or to the Ravnos NL (if Noal is accepting such submissions)? Would love to see this deck. Thanks :) Jim

jack...@hotmail.com (Jim Parker) wrote in message news:<2e1eea41.01070...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Sure, i will do that. He won again with it last night - great game, hinged on top-decking a fata morgana. > > Jim

Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:<B7625A5F.516F%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>... > Mind posting yours? I'm curious as to how "cookie cutter" the average > Hordes deck is. Post the "after cutting the crap out," of course; most > decks have an embarrassing first run; my Hordes deck did surprisingly well, > but it sure got off to a sloooow start, and I was down to 1 pool at one > point. But of course... crypt: 1x Cristofero Giovanni (3 nec) 1x Mario Giovanni (3 nec) 3x Rudolfo Giovannni (3 NEC) 1x Gloria Giovanni (4 nec DOM) 2x Isabel Giovanni (5 NEC DOM) 1x Gillespi Giovanni (7 NEC DOM) 1x Andrea Giovanni (7 NEC DOM) 1x Carlotta Giovanni (7 NEC dom) 1x Regina Giovanni (10 NEC DOM) library: 2x Blood Doll 1x Necromancy 1x Fragment of the Book of Nod 1x The Barrens 1x KRCG News Radio 1x Club Zombie 1x Inbase Discotek Frankfurt 1x Morgue Hunting Ground 1x The Rack 2x Dreams of the Sphinx 1x Charisma 2x The Path of Bone 1x Summon Soul 1x Graverobbing 2x Whispers from the Dead 1x Compel the Spirit 11x Shambling Hordes 1x Leonardo Mortician 1x Vagabond Mystic (almost useless after cutting the other allies) 1x Ambrosius Ferryman 3x Masquer (Wraith) 1x Giuseppe Gravedigger 1x Palatial Estate 1x Aaron's Feeding Razor 3x Meat Hook (too many) 2x Leather Jacket 1x Talbot's Chainsaw 2x Bonding 7x Spectral Divination 5x Call of the Hungry Dead 4x Wake with Evening's Freshness 3x Deflection 7x Spiritual Intervention what was cut: 1x Blood Doll 1x Jake Washington (Hunter) 1x Summon Soul 1x Haunt 2x Ex Nihilo 2x Compel the Spirit 1x Possession 1x Daemonic Possession 3x Shroud Mastery (everyone should trade these to Pat, they suck ;-) 1x Felix "Fix" Hessian 2x Puppeteer 1x Brigitte Gebauer (explain to me how she's better than a Laptop?) > > I wonder a couple things, though: one, did you have any trouble > > with intercept? In the last game I played, after my first oust > > my next prey was an intercepty deck with a Gas-Powered Chainsaw > > (and Fortitude... I hate Fortitude...), and it definitely cramped > > my style. > > Well, I had Animalism intercept in front of me and OBF weenie behind me, > so the well timed Call of the Grateful Dead on the twit with 2 Raven Spies > worked great. I figured 10 Divinations and 5 Calls was good enough for > light intercept and/or Single-guy Wall decks, especially with 5 Summon > Souls. But aren't they gonna block the Summon Souls? Or else you'll have to use one on a SS, so it only nets you one? > 6 player game, though? I'd pack about 5 more Governs to actually do > some pool damage, and probably still run out of cards. It is pretty card > intensive. Yah. I think I was just frustrated about having my Hordes sit there totally useless when the only other two players in the game both had the maneuvers to just ignore their attacks. It almost makes me want to put in Fake Outs for them, but I suspect you're much better off strategically just writing off that kind of situation as a loss and not cluttering the deck up with junk that'll only rarely be useful. > Seduction/Sleeping Mind at Inferior/Call of the Grateful Dead. "You, > you, and you don't block" is better these days than "+2 stealth is enough, > right?" > And, of course, Andrea rocks the house. Hmm, good idea. I should see if I can make room for some Seductions. > I know I only put 5 in, but I wanted the Govern at Superior option, and > I was considering Seduction, so I required DOM. Also, with the Rave, I was > planning on never hunting, but knew that early on, I might need to pay 3 > blood + 1 blood Divination + 1 blood Call = 5 cap minimum. I do like the crypt you used, actually, and I've shifted mine more in that direction for this week. Want to see if Pochtli's built- in can make a difference, as well as Carlotta's, and Andrea's... it's definitely more expensive, though. > Regina was worth her weight in gold, really. I ALMOST put the Charisma > on her, just so I could get the Path later and say "I'll get this Horde for > FREE! WA-Hahahahaha!! FREEeeee!" But I put in on Isabel, knowing that the > 5-cap was going to need the cost reduction even more. After getting the > Path out and recruiting 2 in one turn for only one blood each I got the > "respectful praise" of my fellow players and spectators, such as "Ok, now > that's sick," and "That's just WRONG." =) I did get Charisma on Regina with the Path out, and recruited some number of Hordes at 0 blood. It was great. ;-) Sadly it wasn't long after that that the Hordes started shambling their way into the sunset. > > I had > > seven combat cards where you have none (Spiritual Intervention), > > Hey, I had 5 Obedience! (Used ONE the whole game, though, since my > predator was weenie OBF bleed...) Heh. Lately my group's been playing vast quantities of combat, so some kind of defense is almost always useful (and necessary, and sometimes insufficient). > Yeah, those Shroud Masteries will just clog up every deck. I'll take > them off your hands cheap. ;) I'll give 'em up for Ezmereldas. ;-) Josh lord of the clogged hand

How are you getting vampies in the ash heap to feed the Hordes? Matt

"Matt Latham" <mla...@diamondtoolmfg.com> wrote > How are you getting vampies in the ash heap to feed the Hordes? No need, my friend... You can remove an ally from your ashheap. All you need to do is discard the first Horde you find, and then sacrifice it to pay for the second one. With that many in the deck, it shouldn't take very long to get to the second. Cheers, WES

> Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message > news:<B7625A5F.516F%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>... > >> Mind posting yours? I'm curious as to how "cookie cutter" the average >> Hordes deck is. Post the "after cutting the crap out," of course; most >> decks have an embarrassing first run; my Hordes deck did surprisingly well, >> but it sure got off to a sloooow start, and I was down to 1 pool at one >> point. > > But of course... [snip deck, except for:] > 3x Shroud Mastery (everyone should trade these to Pat, they suck ;-) Truly. And ignoring all the accolades in favor of it, get rid of those Towers of London, too, and I'll find them a home. Whoever said they suck was spot on. =) (Seriously though, most Giovanni decks I play DO have a successful Necromancy action each turn, and with one copy in the deck and a 12-turn game, it should come out about halfway down, giving me 6 pool. If it shows up late, I may end up discarding it. If it shows up early, I gain oodles of pool. =) > 1x Brigitte Gebauer (explain to me how she's better than a Laptop?) * You can't Compel a Laptop. * Laptops can't block. * You can't tap the Vagabond to add one life to a Laptop * Regina with Charisma pays 1 pool for Brigitte, but not -1 for the laptop. * Laptops can't bleed by themselves, much less for 2. * If I get a Laptop, I can bleed for 2, 2, 2, afterwards, but if I get Brigitte, and we both bleed, I can bleed for 2+1,2+1,2+1... * You can't Shroud Mastery a Laptop for stealth. * ...unless you give it to Brigitte... * ...but Laptops can't get Laptops, or Brigittes. * Anarch Troublemaker can't burn your Brigitte. * Laptops don't have glasses and maniacal grins. >>> I wonder a couple things, though: one, did you have any trouble >>> with intercept? In the last game I played, after my first oust >>> my next prey was an intercepty deck with a Gas-Powered Chainsaw >>> (and Fortitude... I hate Fortitude...), and it definitely cramped >>> my style. >> >> Well, I had Animalism intercept in front of me and OBF weenie behind me, >> so the well timed Call of the Grateful Dead on the twit with 2 Raven Spies >> worked great. I figured 10 Divinations and 5 Calls was good enough for >> light intercept and/or Single-guy Wall decks, especially with 5 Summon >> Souls. > > But aren't they gonna block the Summon Souls? Or else you'll have > to use one on a SS, so it only nets you one? True, but that takes a well timed action. If a deck is going to stop ALL your actions, you're dead anyway. Sometimes you're pretty sure they're out of untap, and/or can be pretty sure they'll wait for the "action worth blocking." >> 6 player game, though? I'd pack about 5 more Governs to actually do >> some pool damage, and probably still run out of cards. It is pretty card >> intensive. > > Yah. I think I was just frustrated about having my Hordes sit > there totally useless when the only other two players in the > game both had the maneuvers to just ignore their attacks. It > almost makes me want to put in Fake Outs for them, but I suspect > you're much better off strategically just writing off that kind > of situation as a loss and not cluttering the deck up with junk > that'll only rarely be useful. I thought the same (guns being a real problem, since they have all the maneuvers one needs; you can run a guy out of Flashes). >> Seduction/Sleeping Mind at Inferior/Call of the Grateful Dead. "You, >> you, and you don't block" is better these days than "+2 stealth is enough, >> right?" > > Hmm, good idea. I should see if I can make room for some Seductions. Haven't tooled the deck that way myself, but from the Animalism wall I ran into last time I played the deck, I should have. =) >> I know I only put 5 in, but I wanted the Govern at Superior option, and >> I was considering Seduction, so I required DOM. Also, with the Rave, I was >> planning on never hunting, but knew that early on, I might need to pay 3 >> blood + 1 blood Divination + 1 blood Call = 5 cap minimum. > > I do like the crypt you used, actually, and I've shifted mine more > in that direction for this week. Want to see if Pochtli's built- > in can make a difference, as well as Carlotta's, and Andrea's... > it's definitely more expensive, though. But, you pack on the blood dolls, so they become cheap. The deck needs blood management, badly, but if you get Raving with Hordes that only cost 1 or 2, you start gaining pool. (Even moreso with the Tower, of course) >> Regina was worth her weight in gold, really. I ALMOST put the Charisma >> on her, just so I could get the Path later and say "I'll get this Horde for >> FREE! WA-Hahahahaha!! FREEeeee!" But I put in on Isabel, knowing that the >> 5-cap was going to need the cost reduction even more. After getting the >> Path out and recruiting 2 in one turn for only one blood each I got the >> "respectful praise" of my fellow players and spectators, such as "Ok, now >> that's sick," and "That's just WRONG." =) > > I did get Charisma on Regina with the Path out, and recruited some > number of Hordes at 0 blood. It was great. ;-) Sadly it wasn't > long after that that the Hordes started shambling their way into > the sunset. I got it last game. Got blocked, of course. *sigh* Also, they (I say "they" for having intercept predator and prey) blocked me trying to get Ambrosius for 1 pool. Don't see why... =) >>> I had >>> seven combat cards where you have none (Spiritual Intervention), >> >> Hey, I had 5 Obedience! (Used ONE the whole game, though, since my >> predator was weenie OBF bleed...) > > Heh. Lately my group's been playing vast quantities of combat, so > some kind of defense is almost always useful (and necessary, and > sometimes insufficient). I find blocking with the Hordes is often pretty good. Straight rush will whack me, "stealth rush" will be less focused, and if I'm getting blocked, I need more stealth, not more combat. I find that endless shambling to run my predator and prey out of combat cards actually works in practice, though it may take quite a while. Metagame where everyone has combat, but no one is ONLY combat. >> Yeah, those Shroud Masteries will just clog up every deck. I'll take >> them off your hands cheap. ;) > > I'll give 'em up for Ezmereldas. ;-) Already traded away my on Ez for 2 Shroud Masteries. =) > Josh > > lord of the clogged hand HA! "Master of the custom .sig" you are, but that's the best yet. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 05 Jul 2001 15:09:46 -0500, Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote: >> I did get Charisma on Regina with the Path out, and recruited some >> number of Hordes at 0 blood. It was great. ;-) Sadly it wasn't >> long after that that the Hordes started shambling their way into >> the sunset. > > I got it last game. Got blocked, of course. *sigh* Also, they (I say >"they" for having intercept predator and prey) blocked me trying to get >Ambrosius for 1 pool. Don't see why... =) It's something about the "Ambrosius Gets a Meat Hook" module, I think. =P -- Derek Maintenance: Keep the balls dry and clean and prevent them from violent collisions. Disclaimer: We make no claim that use of these balls will improve health.

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<33g9kt0kpsc9cs912...@4ax.com>... > On Thu, 05 Jul 2001 15:09:46 -0500, Pat Ricochet > <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote: > > I got it last game. Got blocked, of course. *sigh* Also, they (I say > >"they" for having intercept predator and prey) blocked me trying to get > >Ambrosius for 1 pool. Don't see why... =) > > It's something about the "Ambrosius Gets a Meat Hook" module, I think. Is it just me, or is "Ambrosius gets a Talbot's Chainsaw" still a much better thing? I mean yeah, the Meat Hook is mostly good enough for him to kick anyone's ass, but it doesn't come with (a) a built-in rush or (b) a damage prevention in case someone comes up with a Claw or something. Although the Meat Hook does cost three less pool. (I'm running one of each - Chainsaw and Hook - in my Hordes deck right now.) Josh brains.... need brains....

Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:<B76A3285.53AF%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>... > > Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message > > news:<B7625A5F.516F%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>... > [snip deck, except for:] > > 3x Shroud Mastery (everyone should trade these to Pat, they suck ;-) > Truly. And ignoring all the accolades in favor of it, get rid of those > Towers of London, too, and I'll find them a home. Whoever said they suck > was spot on. =) I'm still not sure how good Shroud Mastery really is. Is your plan to build a heavy-Wraith deck and use a pile of them to untap when recruiting and give them stealth when they bleed and steal other people's minions and stuff? Or do I have to wait for the appropriate newsletter issue to find out? ;-) (I suppose that could be pretty good, but man, it'd be a seriously large stack of rares in the deck.) I actually don't have any Towers of London yet - wanna get one or two. > > 1x Brigitte Gebauer (explain to me how she's better than a Laptop?) > * You can't Compel a Laptop. > * Laptops can't block. > * You can't tap the Vagabond to add one life to a Laptop > * Regina with Charisma pays 1 pool for Brigitte, but not -1 for the > laptop. True, but the Laptop would still only cost you 1. ;-) > * Laptops can't bleed by themselves, much less for 2. > * If I get a Laptop, I can bleed for 2, 2, 2, afterwards, but if I get > Brigitte, and we both bleed, I can bleed for 2+1,2+1,2+1... > * You can't Shroud Mastery a Laptop for stealth. > * ...unless you give it to Brigitte... > * ...but Laptops can't get Laptops, or Brigittes. > * Anarch Troublemaker can't burn your Brigitte. > * Laptops don't have glasses and maniacal grins. Yeah. I really like her picture, which is why it's sad that she probably won't go in any deck I ever make, as I'm unlikely to ever have fifteen Shroud Masteries. And Laptop doesn't cost 3 pool up front or (potentially) go away after you use it three times... There are obviously some possibly large advantages to having Brigitte instead (having her bleeding w/Shroud Mastery, for one), but I have trouble seeing how that makes her worth three times as much. Well, I guess she had to be somewhat expensive with a bleed of 2. It just doesn't seem like you'd play her for the ability - more for the possibility of using the ability if you can't bleed with *her* for some reason but *can* get through with someone else. > I thought the same (guns being a real problem, since they have all the > maneuvers one needs; you can run a guy out of Flashes). Yup. The game that I was screwed by maneuvers, there were IR goggles on both sides of me. I think I want to play KRCG and London Evening Star in the Hordes deck, both for potentially blocking those game-ruining equip actions and for giving the Hordes a better chance of getting in a recruit-turn block. (Stupid Club Zombie only giving intercept to vampires... and costing four pool... was playing it for the Hunting Ground angle but I'm not sure it's worth being unable to give intercept to the Hordes.) [seductions] > Haven't tooled the deck that way myself, but from the Animalism wall I > ran into last time I played the deck, I should have. =) Heh. Neither have I, yet, but maybe I will. Your arguments in favor of stealth/not-being-blocked are convincing. :-) > > I do like the crypt you used, actually, and I've shifted mine more > > in that direction for this week. Want to see if Pochtli's built- > > in can make a difference, as well as Carlotta's, and Andrea's... > > it's definitely more expensive, though. > > But, you pack on the blood dolls, so they become cheap. The deck needs > blood management, badly, but if you get Raving with Hordes that only cost 1 > or 2, you start gaining pool. (Even moreso with the Tower, of course) The theory's good, but the execution is (sometimes) weak. Played it again last night, after tweaking back up to 90 cards (mainly in your direction - more Wake/Deflect/Obey, less Spiritual Intervention, more Govern, bigger vamps, etc), and totally sucked. Discovered that, once things start sucking, they aren't going to get any better. Didn't get Regina, which is probably a big problem; didn't get a Path or Charisma until really late, also a big problem; ran Andrea, Gillespi, and Isabel out of blood recruiting Hordes and getting in fights (Assamite predator). Once they were out of blood they never recovered - kept having to hunt, rescue from torpor, hunt, get knocked back into torpor (by a Far Masteried Hordes twice! ignominious!), etc etc. Very bad. Think I want to tweak the deck back to 80 cards or so to increase the chances of early Path/Charisma and better Hordes concentration. Of course, it could have just been bad luck, and it could have just been good luck that it did so well that last game last week. (Regina/Path/ Charisma is pretty much *the* ideal setup...) > I got it last game. Got blocked, of course. *sigh* Also, they (I say > "they" for having intercept predator and prey) blocked me trying to get > Ambrosius for 1 pool. Don't see why... =) Don't they understand that it is your manifest destiny to destroy them all? Resistance is useless! > I find blocking with the Hordes is often pretty good. Straight rush > will whack me, "stealth rush" will be less focused, and if I'm getting > blocked, I need more stealth, not more combat. I find that endless > shambling to run my predator and prey out of combat cards actually works in > practice, though it may take quite a while. Metagame where everyone has > combat, but no one is ONLY combat. Yah... our metagame is sometimes with several people being *only* (or nearly-only) combat lately. First game last night, six players, Assamite qui/cel/tha rush, me (Hordes), Set/Malk stealth-vote, Brujah dom/pot bruise-bleed (more bruise than bleed), Ventrue classic vote, Lasombra vote/bleed/potence. Second game last night, four players, me with !Toreador Miller Delmardigan (Teacher Of Your Mom) intercept combat/ Pulse bleed, then !Ven bleed, Ravnos w/Protean Ravvy stuff/combat, weenie Ani Gangrel/!Nos combat/intercept/bleed. > > I'll give 'em up for Ezmereldas. ;-) > > Already traded away my on Ez for 2 Shroud Masteries. =) Damn! Don't suppose you have any extra Towers of London? heh, yeah right. :-) > > Josh > > > > lord of the clogged hand > > HA! "Master of the custom .sig" you are, but that's the best yet. =) Why thank you. Sheldon has provided me with many amusing phrases. And he's such a great vampire, too. Josh ladies and gentlemen... sheldon flatley, lord of the polka!