Sleeping Mind in power bleed

I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks (like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me like this card? Dorrinal Blackmantle Chronicler of Clan Tremere The Sleeping Mind [Sabbat:C, SW:C] Cardtype: Action Modifier Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Dominate Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. [dom] Choose a tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to block this action. [DOM] Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this action.

Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: > I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks > (like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can > anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me > like this card? > > The Sleeping Mind [Sabbat:C, SW:C] > [dom] Choose a tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to > block this action. It gets a bunch of use at the inferior in that sort of deck (Gio power-bleed.) Plenty of examples of decks with it in the past have been posted to the newsgroup and/or tourney archive. Primarily because it's a 'he can't block' effect that stacks on top of Seduction and Call the Hungry Dead - if you can play all three, your prey needs four minions to block your big bleed. Most of the time with a Giovanni power-bleed deck, your original prey may not ever be able to transfer out that many; often simply being able to consistently knock-out two minions is going to leave them hurting. (Plus, the variety allows you to get around having your Seduction DI'ed.) -John Flournoy

A couple of copies are fine. It's like a second Seduction when you know they're playing a lot of Wakes. Stopping various untaps is also excellent check out this list: Second Tradition Guard Dogs Rat's Warning Special Report Eternal Vigilance Zillah's Tears Babble Speak With Spirits Black Sunrise The Mole Read The Winds There are probably more. Plus if you are blocked it can stop these untaps: Cat's Guidance Majesty Earth Meld Most of the cards in these lists are used in many decks. Other things to consider: -Easily Cyclable ( though it does cost a blood ) -If a Seduction is cancelled you can use the Seeping Mind as an alternate (if they're tapped, of course). I still believe this is a good card and the amount you're using is perfect. It is by no means a 'prayer' card and can be that ace in your pocket for quite a few situations. Robert Scythe

Helpful against eternal vigilance and animalism untap. I haven't used it since I realized that is doesn't stop the 2 most used cards Wake with Evening's Freshness and Forced Awakening. At inferior, it's like seduction that sucks. -John

Dorrinal Blackmantle <john.m...@gmail.com> wrote: > I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks > (like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can > anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me > like this card? This is one of a few cards where the inferior version is generally better than the superior version. And I highly support it. Seduction + Sleeping Mind + Call of the Hungry Dead is 3 vampires that simply can't block you. The superior version not only doesn't stop vampires from playing Wake cards, but it does stop the acting minion (who played it!) from playing Freak Drive! The only good thing about the superior version is that it stops 2nd Traditions across the board, and it stops vampires from untapping with Majesty/Earth Meld. That can come in useful (but again, the acting vamp can't untap with Majesty either).

[ quoted text not captured ] Ok, is this your personal experience? [ quoted text not captured ]

"There are probably more. Plus if you are blocked it can stop these untaps: Cat's Guidance Majesty Earth Meld " Does it prevent Majesty and Earth from being played, or just the untap part? (Of course... if it does, they can just play both at inferior... but I'm curious.)

johnmeier1 a écrit : [ quoted text not captured ] ...except you can choose an older vampire even if you have inferior dominate. Can be cool in midcap deck, or an anarch deck with dominate amongst other disciplines.

*previous commentary snipped* Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: > Ok, is this your personal experience? Of course not. I would _never_ play something as sleazy as Giovanni power-bleed or Crypt Machine decks etc. :) *polishes his halo* I've certainly seen it used in my playgroup by, uh, assorted people over the last few years. > Dorrinal Blackmantle > Chronicler of Clan Tremere -John Flournoy -bastion of purity and innocence

<adam....@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1114718271....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... > Does it prevent Majesty and Earth from being played, or just the untap > part? > (Of course... if it does, they can just play both at inferior... but > I'm curious.) No - he must be talking about using it at superior when he's observed that one or more opponent(s) who might be prone to block the action are known to use Majesty or Earth Meld. It doesn't strike me as being that useful but at least the superior version is a blanket prohibition - not simply a single named minion or even the minions of a single named methuselah. Fred

"Robert Scythe" <rob...@exploretalent.com> wrote in message news:1114716205.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... >A couple of copies are fine. It's like a second Seduction when you know > they're playing a lot of Wakes. Um, I don't believe it does anything against an actual Wake. Fred

"Robert Scythe" <rob...@exploretalent.com> wrote in message news:1114716205.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > There are probably more. Plus if you are blocked it can stop these > untaps: > > Cat's Guidance > Majesty > Earth Meld Another nit: the Sleeping Mind is only playable on action announcement. Once you're actually blocked, it's too late. Fred

[ quoted text not captured ] You Seduce one and Sleep another. If they're playing a lot of Wakes that usually means they're TAPPED.

[ quoted text not captured ] Assume that I played the card correctly, Fred, and then read the sentence that begins with "Plus" again. Anymore nits, picker. :)

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes, but it may mean a reconsideration on the block. If someone is playing a Majesty multi-block (like I did last night, where one vamp held off 3 Gangrel), it makes you have to consider. There is no "Hey, suprise!", but it does make a tactical consideration if he has another minion or two, and your deck is relying on those 3 cards instead of a larger amount of wakes. Morgan Vening

"Robert Scythe" <rob...@exploretalent.com> wrote in message news:1114721918.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I guess I'm completely confused, then. You said, "*Plus* if you are blocked...". Since the function which stops untaps is a separate function than the one that prevents players from using Guard Dogs and such***, it only makes sense to extol it as an *additional* value to the card if you thought it could be played after a block attempt had been announced. That is, why would you ever play it at superior unless you were explicitly trying to stop untaps from the get-go? (*** - Note that the superior does not use the common clause, "AS ABOVE, AND..." that so many other discipline cards use.) In any event, if you knew what you meant and I was just misled by the sort of strange wording you used, sorry. But it's still useful to point out the nit for anyone else who might have been misled by the same wording. Fred

"Robert Scythe" <rob...@exploretalent.com> wrote in message news:1114721711.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > Frederick Scott wrote: >> "Robert Scythe" <rob...@exploretalent.com> wrote in message >> news:1114716205.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... >> >A couple of copies are fine. It's like a second Seduction when you know >> > they're playing a lot of Wakes. >> >> Um, I don't believe it does anything against an actual Wake. > > You Seduce one and Sleep another. If they're playing a lot of Wakes > that usually means they're TAPPED. Right - and they can still play a Wake and play reaction cards and block AS IF untapped. Unless this ruling has changed, recently. I may be confused by I've always been told Sleeping Mind does not affect the use of WwEF and Forced Awakening. Fred

Frederick Scott wrote: > > Right - and they can still play a Wake and play reaction cards and > block AS IF untapped. > > Unless this ruling has changed, recently. I may be confused by I've > always been told Sleeping Mind does not affect the use of WwEF and > Forced Awakening. > *superior* Sleeping Mind does not affect Wakes, it only affects untaps. The original version of the card was sick. Inferior Sleeping Mind only checks if the minion is tapped when it targets them. Sure, they can still Wake and Deflect, but they can't Wake and block.

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:1114725319.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > Frederick Scott wrote: >> >> Right - and they can still play a Wake and play reaction cards and >> block AS IF untapped. >> >> Unless this ruling has changed, recently. I may be confused by I've >> always been told Sleeping Mind does not affect the use of WwEF and >> Forced Awakening. >> > *superior* Sleeping Mind does not affect Wakes, it only affects untaps. Well, yea, I knew that. I was referring to the inferior. > The original version of the card was sick. Inferior Sleeping Mind > only checks if the minion is tapped when it targets them. Sure, they > can still Wake and Deflect, but they can't Wake and block. Well, that certainly makes sense. But I could have *sworn* that at least some years ago, for a fair amount of time, the card texts and rulings between the three cards (Sleeping Mind vs. WwEF and Forced) was such that inferior Sleeping Mind was deemed not to prevent players from playing a Wake and still blocking. I don't recall the rationale exactly but I often don't totally understand the rationale behind the various rulings. Does anyone else recall this or is this particular hallucination only affecting me? Fred

Frederick Scott wrote: > "Robert Scythe" <rob...@exploretalent.com> wrote in message > news:1114721711.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > > > Frederick Scott wrote: > >> "Robert Scythe" <rob...@exploretalent.com> wrote in message > >> news:1114716205.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > >> >A couple of copies are fine. It's like a second Seduction when you know > >> > they're playing a lot of Wakes. > >> > >> Um, I don't believe it does anything against an actual Wake. > > > > You Seduce one and Sleep another. If they're playing a lot of Wakes > > that usually means they're TAPPED. > > Right - and they can still play a Wake and play reaction cards and > block AS IF untapped. > > Unless this ruling has changed, recently. I may be confused by I've > always been told Sleeping Mind does not affect the use of WwEF and > Forced Awakening. > > Fred Fred, you are completely missing what I originally wrote at the top there, so here it is again: "It's like a second Seduction". If they are playing a lot of Wakes then they are tapped, giving you the opportunity to use Sleep at inferior on another minion; exactly (and nothing more than) a second Seduction. That's it, that's all I was stating. And I still believe that this effect is worthy of a couple of slots.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: | I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks | (like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can | anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me | like this card? It's a game-winner. | The Sleeping Mind [Sabbat:C, SW:C] | Cardtype: Action Modifier | Cost: 1 blood | Discipline: Dominate | Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. | [dom] Choose a tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to | block this action. Stacks with Seduction. "Neither Teresita nor Cailean may attempt to block this action." So good, it's not even funny -- the only reason you don't see more of it is the 1 blood cost, and even then I'm not sure we shouldn't see more. Giovanni bleed decks can now, for 2 blood, outright negate 3 blockers. This is enough to shred any intercept wall. | [DOM] Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. | Minions cannot untap during this action. The 2nd Tradition, Read the Winds, etc. etc. killer. Particularly good against Ventrue Law Firm decks, who would love to play 2nd Tradition, untap, fail to block, and then bounce a big honkin' bleed. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFCcWprtQZlu3o7QpERAo5NAKDTvi7GCtdirjSBO8V24QEFbUrvygCdE9eV 5GvhYJr6bbUxunioMOH5kaA= =8ska -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: > I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks > (like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can > anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me > like this card? It isn't that useful, as it doesn't prevent the most common reaction tech--Wake and Forced. It prevents untapping during the action, but Wake and Forced don't untap you. It works against, like, Guard Dogs and Special Report, but more often than not, you'll run into Wake or Forced, and Sleeping Mind doesn't help against those. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

Frederick Scott wrote: > "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message [ quoted text not captured ] Just you. The original card text is functionally equivalent to the current. The inferior has always thwarted blocking, wake-induced or otherwise, on the part of the target. The original superior card text merely (redundantly) reminded players of the rule that tapped minions cannot block. You must have extended some part of the conversation on that topic to the inferior case as well. -- LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> I guess I'm completely confused, then. You said, "*Plus* if you are > blocked...". Since the function which stops untaps is a separate > function than the one that prevents players from using Guard Dogs > and such***, it only makes sense to extol it as an *additional* value > to the card if you thought it could be played after a block attempt > had been announced. That is, why would you ever play it at superior > unless you were explicitly trying to stop untaps from the get-go? No, the function which stops untaps is NOT a separate function than the one that prevents players from using Guard Dogs and such. There is no additional value that I am adding to the card at all. If you play it at superior and you are still blocked (by, oh let's say a Wake) then that minion still cannot untap by any other means ( such as Majesty, Earth Meld and Cat's Guidance). > (*** - Note that the superior does not use the common clause, "AS > ABOVE, AND..." that so many other discipline cards use.) Of, course. Nowhere did I say or make it sound like I was using both effects when I spoke of it preventing untaps. > In any event, if you knew what you meant and I was just misled by > the sort of strange wording you used, sorry. But it's still useful > to point out the nit for anyone else who might have been misled by > the same wording. > > Fred I still do not believe I used any strange wording. When I referred to preventing untaps I stuck to only that. When I mentioned its use as a second Seduction I also stuck to just that effect, i.e. its inferior. The current card text was written in the first post, I expect that if anybody may be confused at all they should read the first post, then assume anyone referring to the card is using correctly, then, if any discrepancies arise, point those out.

Peter D Bakija a écrit : > Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: > > >>I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks >>(like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can >>anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me >>like this card? > > > It isn't that useful, as it doesn't prevent the most common reaction > tech--Wake and Forced. It prevents untapping during the action, but Wake and > Forced don't untap you. It works against, like, Guard Dogs and Special > Report, but more often than not, you'll run into Wake or Forced, and > Sleeping Mind doesn't help against those. You can still use the inferior version to trump a wake...

"Robert Scythe" <rob...@exploretalent.com> wrote in message news:1114729378.3...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > I still do not believe I used any strange wording. OK, I understand the confusion now. I was suffereing from a brain fart about the superior version that's hard to explain right off hand so I won't bother. Anyway, yea - I see what you were trying to say now and it makes total sense. Fred

[ quoted text not captured ] Cool, man. But, I tell you, Fred, if I wasn't already drinking I'd be needing one right now! 8)

"Robert Scythe" <rob...@exploretalent.com> wrote in message news:1114732112.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > Frederick Scott wrote: > But, I tell you, Fred, if I wasn't already drinking I'd be > needing one right now! 8) Oh, man, you're telling me. I'm still not sure what my misunderstanding was about the inferior version. I can remember CLEAR AS A BELL that this card didn't prevent people from using Wakes to block. I remember thinking that was just stupid, the card would be interesting to use if it stopped people from using Wakes to block and the game would be more interesting for it. And I distinctly recall reading that point (that you couldn't use it to stop reacting minions from using Wakes in order to be able to block) on Usenet on this newsgroup. I vaguely recall some explanation being given not unlike the reason you can't use Leathery Hide to prevent aggravated damage being treated as normal by something like the new Heart of Darkness. But that could only have been if it were worded differently and LSJ states that it was worded pretty much the same as it is now. So I am up the creek without a clue, here. I don't mind the instances of forgetting what to buy at the store or why I walked into a room. But those FALSE memories that seem to be hallucinations come out of nowhere - man, those I could use a few stiff drinks to forget those. Fred

On 28 Apr 2005 11:09:25 -0700, "Dorrinal Blackmantle" <john.m...@gmail.com> wrote: >I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks >(like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can >anyone provide experiences that would help? Yes. Three rounds of tournament play, 4 vps per round, won the tournament. Lasombra bleed, of course, not that worthless Giovanni stuff. >Does anyone besides me like this card? Yes. DragonCon 2004 Atlanta, Georgia September 5th, 2004 16 players 2R + F Jeffrey Thompson won using this deck with 4 victory points in every round, including the finals. Only 1 victory point was acquired via Dramatic Upheaval, this happened in the first round. Deck Name: A Sudden Anarch Troublemaker Created By: The Lasombra Description: Get the Anarch Troublemaker in play early. Use it on the turn you expect to finish your prey, or on a turn where it will make a big enough difference that you can afford to have it used by your prey. Optimally, you will play another one on the turn you give it to your prey to prevent them from using it should they survive your attack. Sudden Reversal is key to preventing other decks from destroying you or your strategy. Successful Sudden targets included Minion Taps, Blood Dolls, Fame, and Ventrue Headquarters. Crypt: (13 cards, Min: 16, Max: 34, Avg: 6.31) ---------------------------------------------- 1 Cameron dom pot 3, Lasombra:2 1 Ramiro dom obt vic 4, Lasombra:2 1 Ignacio dom obt pot 4, Lasombra:2 1 Banjoko obt pot DOM 5, Lasombra:3 1 Guido Lucciano dom obf OBT 5, Lasombra:2 1 Aurora Van Brande dom for OBT pot 6, Lasombra:2 1 Talley aus dom OBT POT 6, Lasombra:2 1 Tobias Smith DOM OBT pot PRE 7, Lasombra:3 1 Lucita cel DOM FOR OBT pot 8, Lasombra:2 1 Lucita (ADV) cel pot DOM FOR OBT 8, Lasombra:2, Archbishop 2 Gratiano DOM obf OBT pot 8, Lasombra:2, Priscus 1 Angelica cel DOM obf OBT POT 10, Lasombra:2, Cardinal Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (16 cards) 4 Anarch Troublemaker 1 Dia de los Muertos 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 1 Fame 2 Major Boon 1 Power Structure 6 Sudden Reversal Action (12 cards) 12 Govern the Unaligned Action Modifier (23 cards) 1 Blanket of Night 3 Foreshadowing Destruction 6 Seduction 3 Shadow Play 2 Shroud of Absence 3 Shroud of Night 5 Sleeping Mind, The Political Action (10 cards) 5 Consanguineous Boon 3 Domain Challenge 2 Dramatic Upheaval Reaction (26 cards) 9 Deflection 2 Delaying Tactics 7 Obedience 8 Wake with Evening's Freshness Combat (3 cards) 3 Shadow Body Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com Your best online source for information about V:TES. Now also featuring individual card sales and sales of booster and starter box displays.

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht news:Dr-dnUEv5df...@giganews.com... > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: > | I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks > | (like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can > | anyone provide experiences that would help? Does anyone besides me > | like this card? > > It's a game-winner. > agreed, with a but... see below. I see it fitting better in a lasombra bleed deck or a Kyasid deck, like Jeff's above. But 2 should be fine in such a deck. > > Stacks with Seduction. "Neither Teresita nor Cailean may attempt to > block this action." So good, it's not even funny -- the only reason you > don't see more of it is the 1 blood cost, and even then I'm not sure we > shouldn't see more. > > Giovanni bleed decks can now, for 2 blood, outright negate 3 blockers. > This is enough to shred any intercept wall. > And that's the problem, i guess, I always want to include it in a gio bleed deck but my vamps seem to run low on blood too fast. In REAL* powerbleed deck: govern+seduction+Sleeping Mind+ Call of the Hungy Dead + Command of The Beast + Spectral divination + conditioning = a nigh impossible to block bleed for 7 but it costs 5 blood and is a bit too big a combo to pull of reliably. (which is of course not nesecarry) still, 5 blood for Giovanni is quite a high cost. Even if the Spectral Divination is not really needed it costs 4 blood. * Yes, I know you can go the scouting mission and bonding route to both lower the number of cards and the total cost, but, that's not what I understand with the term "powerbleed"

Derek Ray wrote: > > Giovanni bleed decks can now, for 2 blood, outright negate 3 blockers. > This is enough to shred any intercept wall. > Even better, if you use superior Bonding and maybe a few Spiritual Divinations, you can Seduce the guy with the Sport Bike, Sleeping Mind the tapped one, then add stealth when blocked, Hungry Dead after they add intercept, and they'll need to get intercept twice. Assuming they have at least 4 blockers... Giovanni don't ever need to get blocked if they don't want to. Just bounced. 8) > | [DOM] Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. > | Minions cannot untap during this action. > > The 2nd Tradition, Read the Winds, etc. etc. killer. Particularly good > against Ventrue Law Firm decks, who would love to play 2nd Tradition, > untap, fail to block, and then bounce a big honkin' bleed. > And the best part about these is that a) you can usually tell when a deck will be using one of the big untappers, and b) most decks don't use Wakes *and* untappers at the same time (maybe some Forced Awakenings in a true wall deck that has access to untappers). So you usually have a real good idea of when superior Sleeping Mind is gonna be useful.

LSJ wrote: > > The original card text is functionally equivalent to the current. > > The inferior has always thwarted blocking, wake-induced or otherwise, > on the part of the target. > > The original superior card text merely (redundantly) reminded players of > the rule that tapped minions cannot block. You must have extended > some part of the conversation on that topic to the inferior case > as well. > I recall that before you ruled the original to work the way it currently does, most people (AFAIK) played that Wakes didn't allow vampires to block after sup Sleeping Mind. And IIRC, you ruled that the card should be played "as written, rather than as intended". Since the phrase "tapped vampires cannot block" couldn't have done anything, the card had to previously be played according to intention which was "tapped vampires cannot block regardless of effects that allow them to block." Of course, that was sick and wrong. Not arguing with you, just saying that previous to saying "play the card as written, which means sup Sleeping Mind doesn't effect Wakes", the card played much differently.

Chris Berger wrote: > I recall that before you ruled the original to work the way it > currently does, most people (AFAIK) played that Wakes didn't allow > vampires to block after sup Sleeping Mind. And IIRC, you ruled that > the card should be played "as written, rather than as intended". Since > the phrase "tapped vampires cannot block" couldn't have done anything, > the card had to previously be played according to intention which was > "tapped vampires cannot block regardless of effects that allow them to > block." Of course, that was sick and wrong. > > Not arguing with you, just saying that previous to saying "play the > card as written, which means sup Sleeping Mind doesn't effect Wakes", > the card played much differently. Right on all points. Designer intent, although a factor, was dropped in favor of balance using the actual effect of card text as an excuse/shield. Them, of course, card text was "clarified" to remove the unintentionally-redundant verbiage. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:57:47 -0400, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >Stacks with Seduction. "Neither Teresita nor Cailean may attempt to >block this action." So good, it's not even funny -- the only reason you >don't see more of it is the 1 blood cost, and even then I'm not sure we >shouldn't see more. I can provide a reason or two, at least for my metagame: - Since the superior does not prevent Wake and Forced from being played, many players miss the point that the inferior is a Seduction that can be played on any vampire. - People still think that stealth'ing by all potential blockers is generally better than getting specific blockers out of the way. Myself, I'm trying to find the best combination of block-fails cards in a single deck - say, Pochtli fun with Seduction, Sleeping Mind, Elder Impersonation and Call of the Hungry Dead? Let them choke on intercept cards, or tap their locations for nothing... best, Fabio "Sooner" Macedo V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil Giovanni Newsletter Editor ----------------------------------------------------- V for Vendetta on the big screen! http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/

The Lasombra wrote: > On 28 Apr 2005 11:09:25 -0700, "Dorrinal Blackmantle" > <john.m...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >I try to include one or two copies of this card in power bleed decks > >(like Giovanni bleed) but I'm not entirely convinced it is useful. Can > >anyone provide experiences that would help? > > Yes. > > Three rounds of tournament play, 4 vps per round, won the tournament. > Lasombra bleed, of course, not that worthless Giovanni stuff. > Well, congratulations! (I will snip the deck to save a little space.) I see you have 5 copies of The Sleeping Mind in that 90-card deck. It seems like a high ratio to me. Do you recall how often you discarded it? Or played it even though it wasn't crucial, to move cards? And how often was it a game-winner? (rare occurence in my experience) Thanks for your response. :) Dorrinal Blackmantle Chronicler of Clan Tremere Tremeres have Dominate, too.

I totally agree with your assessment of the card. Yet I still discard it as often as I play it on a bleed (and then, I am not always convinced prey has wake in hand - I was simply not underestimating them). Aside from likely witnessing The Lasombra's DragonCon deck, what are your experiences? [ quoted text not captured ]

Eyes went straight to the bold text, eh Peter? ;) Sleeping Mind is clearly more useful at inferior, especially when coupled with Seduction. My experience suggests it's good but not in large quantities - have you played with it much? [ quoted text not captured ]

Dorrinal wrote: >Eyes went straight to the bold text, eh Peter? ;) Sleeping Mind is >clearly more useful at inferior, especially when coupled with >Seduction. My experience suggests it's good but not in large >quantities - have you played with it much? The unferior is fairly useful, but then you are using 2 cards to foil blocking (Sleeping and Seduction), which, given the overall effectivness of Dominate, usually not more effective than just using, like, Bonding instead. Dom bleed usually comes with either a stealth discpline (making Sleeping mostly unecessary) or hordes of vampires, making Sleeping not that needed. I'd generally rely on Bonding at DOM before I'd use Sleeping at dom. It isn't, like, a bad card, but for 1 blood it is generally less effective than most other highly effective strategies that use Dominate (S+B or weenie dominate horde) -Peter

p...@lightlink.com wrote: > Dorrinal wrote: > >Eyes went straight to the bold text, eh Peter? ;) Sleeping Mind is > >clearly more useful at inferior, especially when coupled with > >Seduction. My experience suggests it's good but not in large > >quantities - have you played with it much? > > The unferior is fairly useful, but then you are using 2 cards to foil > blocking (Sleeping and Seduction), which, given the overall > effectivness of Dominate, usually not more effective than just using, > like, Bonding instead. Dom bleed usually comes with either a stealth > discpline (making Sleeping mostly unecessary) or hordes of vampires, > making Sleeping not that needed. I'd generally rely on Bonding at DOM > before I'd use Sleeping at dom. I hear you, but even a dom/obf deck typically runs Elder Impersonation. In the type of deck I am talking about, low-to-no-stealth power bleed, I don't see how eliminating the third blocker is as good as +1 stealth. It's strong versus bounce due to its blockability. And if you rely on Bonding you are limiting the size of your bleeds - which might as well be for 5 if you're bleeding at 0 stealth. I see the matchup versus a bunch of weenie blockers (4+ minions) being poor. Heaven forbid they have an intercept location; so much for Bonding as well! > It isn't, like, a bad card, but for 1 blood it is generally less > effective than most other highly effective strategies that use Dominate > (S+B or weenie dominate horde) Well that comparison doesn't make much sense. Sleeping Mind isn't the strategy unto itself! If you mean to say that block-denial power bleed is not as effective as stealth-bleed or weenie dominate horde, you may be right, but that's beyond the scope of the thread :) [ quoted text not captured ]

Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: > I hear you, but even a dom/obf deck typically runs Elder Impersonation. > In the type of deck I am talking about, low-to-no-stealth power bleed, > I don't see how eliminating the third blocker is as good as +1 stealth. > It's strong versus bounce due to its blockability. And if you rely on > Bonding you are limiting the size of your bleeds - which might as well > be for 5 if you're bleeding at 0 stealth. Sure, but how many Sleeping are going in the deck? Unless you have, like, 10 each of Seduction and Sleeping, you are better off with just a bunch of Seductions (as the Sleeping is really only useful in conjunction with the Seduction), and if you are using 10 Sleepings, personally, I'd much rather have the Bondings as in a general sense, +1 stealth is going to be more useful than inferior Sleeping. > I see the matchup versus a bunch of weenie blockers (4+ minions) being > poor. Heaven forbid they have an intercept location; so much for > Bonding as well! The intercept location stops one bleed. The rest get through. Not really a problem there. > Well that comparison doesn't make much sense. Sleeping Mind isn't the > strategy unto itself! If you mean to say that block-denial power bleed > is not as effective as stealth-bleed or weenie dominate horde, you may > be right, but that's beyond the scope of the thread :) No, it isn't a strategy in and of itself. But I'm pretty convinced that it is the poor cousin of Seduction (which does the same thing as Sleeping inferior, mostly, but for free) and Bonding (+1 stealth is always good). Yeah, Stacking Sleeping and Seduction might make a bleed completely unblockable, but it also might mean that they just wake the third guy to block. The combo of Seduction and +1 stelath from Bonding usually make a deck go quite nicely (especially when backed up by Anarch Troublemake and/or Misdirection). There isn't anything *wrong* per-se with Sleeping, but really, if you only have 1 of Seduciton or Sleeping in your hand, you probably want the Seduction (i.e. I'd much rather play *just* Seduction than *just* Sleeping). So you probably want more Seductions than Sleepings. And for my money, reliable +1 stealth bleeds of 4 that are backed by a Seduction (i.e. Govern, Seduction, Bonding) is usually as much killing power as you need. Sure, if you can stack a Sleeping on top, that isn't going to hurt at all, but that is another moving part that you probably don't want too many of anyway. Having a couple in a deck that is rich with dom bleed can't hurt, no, but I'd tend to not build a strategy around the card, as there are other cards to build a strategy around (Seduction, Bonding, general stealth from Obf or Obt or Pro) that are more reliable and more likely to be cards I'd want in my hand by themselves as opposed to as part of a set. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 29 Apr 2005 07:47:36 -0700, "Dorrinal Blackmantle" <john.m...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. >> Three rounds of tournament play, 4 vps per round, won the tournament. >> Lasombra bleed, of course, not that worthless Giovanni stuff. >Well, congratulations! >(I will snip the deck to save a little space.) http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k4dragoncon2 >I see you have 5 copies of The Sleeping Mind in that 90-card deck. It >seems like a high ratio to me. Do you recall how often you discarded >it? Never. >Or played it even though it wasn't crucial, to move cards? I don't recall that ever being the case, though it may have happened. >And how often was it a game-winner? (rare occurence in my experience) It made all the difference in the finals. My grand-prey was playing Maris Streck - Cock Robin with Second Traditions. Being able to say neither of your vampires can even attempt to block was great each time it happened. It also helped push thru a few of the final bleeds against my grand-prey, a Ventrue princely vote deck (non-lawfirm). [ quoted text not captured ]

"Fabio "Sooner" Macedo" <fabio_...@NOSPAMyahoo.com.br> schreef in bericht news:b0i4711o5kua6ad52...@4ax.com... > On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:57:47 -0400, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > - People still think that stealth'ing by all potential blockers is > generally better than getting specific blockers out of the way. > Myself, I'm trying to find the best combination of block-fails cards > in a single deck - say, Pochtli fun with Seduction, Sleeping Mind, > Elder Impersonation and Call of the Hungry Dead? Let them choke on > intercept cards, or tap their locations for nothing... not only that: if your big bleed gets bounced, your grandprey won't have problems blocking you 'cause you're still at 0 stealth.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: | I totally agree with your assessment of the card. Yet I still discard | it as often as I play it on a bleed (and then, I am not always | convinced prey has wake in hand - I was simply not underestimating | them). Aside from likely witnessing The Lasombra's DragonCon deck, | what are your experiences? I won the Dragon's Breath tournament at DragonCon 2002 with it in a Giovanni mondo-bleed deck -- the ability to negate 2nd Tradition at will was unparalleled, since this was the last tournament before Camarilla Edition became legal (and the changes to 2nd and 5th took effect). I expected to see tons of Camarilla, and I did; each round there was a Prince/Justicar deck with 2nds on the table with me. I also used it successfully against a Meshenka/Dragos Tzimisce wall at inferior, as well as a few times against incidental Sport Bikers. I've also used it in several Tremere decks as well as one Euro-Brujah deck. In those, it doesn't prevent you from being blocked -- but it does allow you to select which of your prey's minions can get in a fight with you, and that can be just as powerful (when the guy with the Femur of Toomler can't ever attempt to block, for example, your prey's whole defensive strategy can go in the pooper). It pairs well with Seduction to force your prey to throw his crunchy minions in the way first... and eventually he has only two minions left, at which point you are unblockable. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFCc5b8tQZlu3o7QpERAnnXAKDxPBEHj70jqR5zXTjSYbfNCFkG+wCcDbsF 0EDbg+8aQiPJ+tDiKFDB/jA= =pR0H -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----