Simple Math [Camarilla Edition]

Simple Math (ie, why the price of Freak Drive will not decrease with the release of the Camarilla Edition) Display Boxes - $57 - 36 boosters per box, 11 cards per booster 1 rare / 2 vampire / 3 uncommon / 5 common 396 total cards per booster display Camarilla Edition booster pack distinct cards: 100 Common 100 Uncommon 100 Vampire 85 Rare (70 R1, 15 R2) 36 rares per box 72 vampires per box 108 uncommons per box 180 commons per box In a random distribution, you will not get more than 1.08 of any individual uncommon in a box of boosters. This works out to 1 Freak Drive per box. Compare this to Jyhad, 92 different rares, but still 36 boosters per box. This works out to 1 Freak drive per 3 boxes. When Jyhad cost $5 per box, it was relatively reasonable to buy 3 boxes and expect to get a Freak Drive. Therefore, a Freak Drive could reasonably cost up to $15. It will cost $57 to acquire 1 single Freak Drive (or any other specific uncommon) from the new set with any reliability when buying from boosters. There is no reason to suspect that players will acquire Camarilla Edition in the quantities they did for Jyhad (that $52 difference), so Freak Drive will not be in any more significant circulation than it was previously. And, now back to your regularly scheduled newsgroup rantings.

The Lasombra wrote: || Simple Math || (ie, why the price of Freak Drive will not decrease with || the release of the Camarilla Edition) (snip) || In a random distribution, you will not get more than 1.08 of any || individual uncommon in a box of boosters. || || This works out to 1 Freak Drive per box. (snip) This is an excellent analysis !! I never had the idea to calculate this out. I just sold 3 derange to another player, but i guess the card will be rare and very hard to find with this rarity scheme. And it's still quite powerful imho... i think i'll stick with my freak drives... reyda

"The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d3afff5...@text.giganews.com... > Simple Math > (ie, why the price of Freak Drive will not decrease with > the release of the Camarilla Edition) While I agree with most of the statistical analysis, a few market related points are left out: primarily related to the supply of freak drives available. Previously there were X (number released in Jyhad) + Y (Number released in VTES) freak drives available. Now there will be X + Y + Z (number released in CE). As supply increases, a number of effects are expected to occur: More people will be willing to sell a freak drive for the right price. They will either have more than they think that they can use, or are eager to cash in on the expected high prices that people have been paying for freak drives. Result: more sellers => competitive practices => decrease in price Marginal value to the potential buyer: As the supply of freak drives increases, the marginal value, or price that the buyer is willing to pay for 1 more Freak drive, should decrease. Example (with made up prices) say they have 1 freak drive and really want more, they are willing to pay 50$ for a second freak drive, 40$ for a third freak drive, 30$ for a fourth freak drive, etc until they are unwilling to buy any more freak drives. They buy CE and get a single freak drive, they now have two, and while before CE came out they were willing to pay 50$ for their next freak drive they are now only willing to pay 40$ (if that) for their next freak drive. The demand for freak drives should decrease. Similar to marginal value decreasing, as there are more freak drives out there, some people will decide that "now they have enough" and will no longer actively seek to trade for or buy freak drives. Less demand => lower prices. Now all of this requires a free market (and thats a little idealistic). If everybody who has freak drives gets together and decides to charge the same "price" no matter what (however unlikely) the price could remain stable(You do get into a "prisoner's dilemma" situation though where individuals are encouraged to take advantage of the situation and ignore such an agreement). Also, several of these effects will require some time before they affect the average price of freak drives. Other than that, the price of freak drives will decrease overall. How much will prices decrease? When will they decrease? Well you can't expect me to have all of the answers.... :-D -JTP

The Lasombra wrote: > > Simple Math > (ie, why the price of Freak Drive will not decrease with > the release of the Camarilla Edition) > > Display Boxes - $57 - 36 boosters per box, 11 cards per booster > 1 rare / 2 vampire / 3 uncommon / 5 common > 396 total cards per booster display > > Camarilla Edition booster pack distinct cards: > 100 Common > 100 Uncommon > 100 Vampire > 85 Rare (70 R1, 15 R2) > > 36 rares per box > 72 vampires per box > 108 uncommons per box > 180 commons per box > > In a random distribution, you will not get more than 1.08 of any > individual uncommon in a box of boosters. > > This works out to 1 Freak Drive per box. > > Compare this to Jyhad, 92 different rares, but still 36 boosters per > box. This works out to 1 Freak drive per 3 boxes. When Jyhad cost $5 > per box, it was relatively reasonable to buy 3 boxes and expect to > get a Freak Drive. Therefore, a Freak Drive could reasonably cost up > to $15. Actually, Freak Drive was an R2. In Jyhad, all of the rares were not distributed evenly. There were 92 different rares but 29 of them were listed as R2s. Therefore, the R1s should be thought of as coming up one time in 121 packs vs. R2s which come up one time in 60 1/2 packs. So actually you'd get one Freak Driver per about one and two-thirds of a box (or three in every five boxes). > It will cost $57 to acquire 1 single Freak Drive (or any other > specific uncommon) from the new set with any reliability when buying > from boosters. > > There is no reason to suspect that players will acquire Camarilla > Edition in the quantities they did for Jyhad (that $52 difference), so > Freak Drive will not be in any more significant circulation than it > was previously. It's an interesting point but I think your last paragraph is the huge weakness in your analysis. The truth is that we have no idea whatsoever how well CE boxes will sell in comparison to Jyhad. Without thinking about what the array of players and card collectors will do, just look at how singles dealers operate: they have to make a profit from singles sales that justifies paying for boxes and themselves for their time in opening and selling the singles. If CE turns out to have some very lucrative rares and uncommons apart from Freak Drive, singles dealers will have a much larger supply of the latter gained incidentally from the increased quantity of boxes they'll break open to sell. This would inevitably drive the price down. On the other hand, if other sellable CE singles turn out to be sparse and not highly demanded, you won't see many boxes being cracked open and the effect on the price of existing Freak Drives will be negligible (or at least more negligible then my first scenario). In short, it all just depends on a bunch of information we don't have yet. Fred

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002 18:42:49 GMT, The Lasombra wrote: >Simple Math >(ie, why the price of Freak Drive will not decrease with > the release of the Camarilla Edition) You calculation is interesting but irrelevant. What determines the price is supply vs demand. If the supply is going up (as it will be), you need to show that the demand will increase in proportion to keep the price from falling. Andrew

John wrote: || "The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> wrote in message || news:3d3afff5...@text.giganews.com... || The demand for freak drives should decrease. No. 1- Jaroslav Pacek calls the referendum to becomes an archon. Referendum passes. freak drive. I rush your vampire. I crush him, amaranth him. Freak drive. I rush another vampire. I crush him, amaranth him. Freak drive.... 2- Reg Driscoll equips with a sport bikes. Place the equipment on my tapped cardinal with Eternal vigilance on him. Freak drive. Reg driscoll equips with a flamethrower. Place the equipment on my tapped Vigilane cardinal. Reg driscoll equips with a laptop. Freak drive. Computer hacks you for 4. don't forget the new NRA rule. Equipping multiple times or rushing multiple times via Archon or Templar or wahtever will widen Freak Drive's demand. reyda

In message <3d3afff5...@text.giganews.com>, The Lasombra <thela...@hotmail.com> writes: >Simple Math >(ie, why the price of Freak Drive will not decrease with > the release of the Camarilla Edition) This works on the basis of a number of assumptions. One important one - which may or may not prove to be valid - is that it won't be reprinted in a starter. Any inclusion of Freak Drive in a starter drops it down to approximately 10 dollars to acquire one, as well as a rake of other cards at the same time. -- James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D You don't need to hear it but I'm dried up EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 and sick to death of love. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

thela...@hotmail.com (The Lasombra) wrote in message news:<3d3afff5...@text.giganews.com>... > Simple Math > (ie, why the price of Freak Drive will not decrease with > the release of the Camarilla Edition) > > Yes, I absolutely agree with that. And the same would have to be spoken for several other nice uncommons too. Though, it is a bit of bad news for people wanting new or just plain more freak drives. But who knows, maybe people will want the new Freak Drives because of the new layout. Or just the same they might trade down for the old ones. It makes no difference to me, a card is a card. I just wish I still had the few I that I did still. They were old and I didn’t have any need for them at the time, but I do now. Hell maybe we'll be lucky and get blessed with one in the Ventrue Starter so a freak drive will only cost us $10 guaranteed to get one. That and on top of whatever other cards and vampires that come in the new starter. Heck it was done with Dreams of the Sphinx in the Giovanni starter. But of course I understand that a card such as Freak Drive has a broader application in game terms then the Dreams. I will just keep my fingers crossed, and not let my hopes run anywhere. Aaron, the guy over there

thela...@hotmail.com (The Lasombra) wrote in message news:<3d3afff5...@text.giganews.com>... > Simple Math > (ie, why the price of Freak Drive will not decrease with > the release of the Camarilla Edition) > > Yes, I absolutely agree with that. And the same would have to be spoken for several other nice uncommons too. Though, it is a bit of bad news for people wanting new or just plain more freak drives. But who knows, maybe people will want the new Freak Drives because of the new layout. Or just the same they might trade down for the old ones. It makes no difference to me, a card is a card. I just wish I still had the few I that I did still. They were old and I didn’t have any need for them at the time, but I do now. Hell maybe we will be lucky and get blessed with one in the Ventrue [ quoted text not captured ]

>I just sold 3 derange to another player, but i guess the card will be rare >and very hard to find with this rarity scheme. And it's still quite powerful >imho... As a sidenote, it may be important to note that there seems to be quite a few people who don't really like the new look. If that is so, there may be a difference between Jyhad/VTES Freak Drives vs. CE Freak Drives and Sabbat Deranges vs. CE Deranges (i.e. people that want to play with the old cards but think the two styles clash may still want the older cards). Halcyan 2

>It's an interesting point but I think your last paragraph is the huge >weakness in your analysis. The truth is that we have no idea whatsoever >how well CE boxes will sell in comparison to Jyhad. Without thinking >about what the array of players and card collectors will do, just look >at how singles dealers operate: they have to make a profit from singles >sales that justifies paying for boxes and themselves for their time in >opening and selling the singles. I don't know, I think Lasombra still has a point. Remember that Wizards totally overproduced Jyhad. While White Wolf has seen very good sales, I doubt they'd recklessly overproduce the CE. Anyway, in addition to how many boxes were actually produced, the old days of $5-$10 boxes of Jyhad also led to an increase in Freak Drive supply. I really don't think as many people will buy $50-$60 CE boxes. (I do think plenty of people will buy it. I'm just saying that when Jyhad boxes were so cheap, lots of people were picking up lots). Halcyan 2

>1- Jaroslav Pacek calls the referendum to becomes an archon. Referendum >passes. freak drive. I rush your vampire. I crush him, amaranth him. Freak >drive. I rush another vampire. I crush him, amaranth him. Freak drive.... > >2- Reg Driscoll equips with a sport bikes. Place the equipment on my tapped >cardinal with Eternal vigilance on him. Freak drive. Reg driscoll equips >with a flamethrower. Place the equipment on my tapped Vigilane cardinal. Reg >driscoll equips with a laptop. Freak drive. Computer hacks you for 4. > > >don't forget the new NRA rule. Equipping multiple times or rushing multiple >times via Archon or Templar or wahtever will widen Freak Drive's demand. Which is why I constantly pray that the people at White Wolf had the sense to limit Freak Drive to once a turn... Halcyan 2 ::crosses fingers::

>One important one - which may or may not prove to be valid - is that it >won't be reprinted in a starter. Any inclusion of Freak Drive in a >starter drops it down to approximately 10 dollars to acquire one, as >well as a rake of other cards at the same time. But then again, I'd say that there's still very good demand for Direct Intervention, Dreams of the Sphinx, and Kiss of Ra, even though all of those are in starters too. Halcyan 2

> don't forget the new NRA rule. Equipping multiple times or rushing multiple > times via Archon or Templar or wahtever will widen Freak Drive's demand. > > reyda the new NRA rule only allows you to use the ability provided by a card in play (archon and templar for example) once each turn, so for it to be _really_ useful, you have to have many different cards allowing actions in play _and_ many freak drives.... this will fill up your deck really quickly.

Hawk the Demon wrote: ||| don't forget the new NRA rule. Equipping multiple times or rushing ||| multiple times via Archon or Templar or wahtever will widen Freak ||| Drive's demand. ||| ||| reyda || || || the new NRA rule only allows you to use the ability provided by a || card in play (archon and templar for example) once each turn, yeah, yeah, but repeat after me : ARCHON is NEVER PUT IN PLAY =) So i can rush you 4 times in a row, in the same turn, using 3 freak drives if my deck allows it. period.

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020721220445...@mb-da.aol.com... [freaky Archon rush] > Which is why I constantly pray that the people at White Wolf had the sense to > limit Freak Drive to once a turn... Or reworded Archon to be put in play? Xian

In message <20020721220656...@mb-da.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 [ quoted text not captured ] True. But - especially for people in the US - ordering through White Wolf's online store, even if local stores/distributors won't order single boosters, should be relatively simple. Ł3.95 P+P on orders less than $50, free otherwise. Concoction of Vitality, Crusade: Mexico City, Daring the Dawn, Eternal Vigilance, Far Mastery, Kindred Manipulation, Life Boon, Pulse of the Canaille, Purchase Pact, Sudden Reversal, Telepathic Vote Counting, Thoughts Betrayed, Undead Persistence and Ventrue Investment are all available for $10 on the White Wolf shopping cart. The !Ventrue starter being in stock, and those are the major cards that leapt to my attention, other than really obvious commons like Wake, Forced Awake and Leather Jackets and stuff. All the Final Nights starters are in stock. Giovanni turns up Dreams of the Sphinx, Depravity, Ambrosius (specific to Giovanni, of course, but a bloomin' good card), Akhenaten (mostly Giovanni, but potentially usable in any deck that wants Necromancy, together with the Sargon Fragment, not in the starter, but R2 so available-ish), The Parthenon and Vial of Garou Blood. Probably not as good a steal as the !Ventrue starter, investment wise. Assamites turns up Legendary Vampire, Alamut (again, specific), Ruins of Villars Abbey (which isn't bad now), Garrote (cute), Tomb of Rameses III, Psyche! (twice), Quickness, Atonement, Forgotten Labyrinth. Investment-wise, I'd plump for the Giovanni there, I think. Followers of Set gets you Catatonic Fear, 4 lots of Corruption (always useful), The Damned (urgle), Humanitas, Marijava Ghoul, Secure Haven, Banishment, Elder Impersonation, Aire of Elation (three) and White Phosphorus Grenade. If Staredown becomes more popular, assuming the re- write of Majesty does happen, that's there too. Enchant Kindred is pretty good, though Govern is probably still better. Oh, and Catacombs too. Ravnos get Kiss of Ra, London Evening Tabloid Hate Rag, Heidelberg, Guardian Angel, Red Herring, Palatial Estate, Daring the Dawn, Force of Will (twice) (oh, the lovely Fortitude) and so on. Not a bad investment, from here. [ quoted text not captured ]

Well, I'm guessing there will be a tremendous amount of Freak Drives here in Trondheim, Norway as each booster box costs $140. wohoo...

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020721220445...@mb-da.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I thought you were an atheist? > Halcyan 2 > > ::crosses fingers::

"Martin Bruset Solberg" <tha...@online.no> wrote in message news:7IU_8.1482$Py1....@news2.ulv.nextra.no... > Well, I'm guessing there will be a tremendous amount of Freak Drives here in > Trondheim, Norway as each booster box costs $140. wohoo... Shipping can't be *that* expensive! At this cost, I'd suggest ordering through Potomac or the distributor of your choice. I used Potomac, and the booster boxes are going to be $57 per box for me, no shipping at all (as my order is over $100), I believe these prices are average for distributors. Patrick

In message <ZaX_8.11$I14....@twister.columbus.rr.com>, Patrick van der Reest <pat...@vekn.net> writes: >"Martin Bruset Solberg" <tha...@online.no> wrote in message >news:7IU_8.1482$Py1....@news2.ulv.nextra.no... >> Well, I'm guessing there will be a tremendous amount of Freak Drives here >in >> Trondheim, Norway as each booster box costs $140. wohoo... > >Shipping can't be *that* expensive! Assuming this is US dollars, try: http://secure.white-wolf.com/catalog/default.tpl?section=68 Current boxes of boosters for Sabbat War, Final Nights and Bloodlines are $99.00. http://secure.white-wolf.com/catalog/terms.tpl All other customers (including Alaska, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico) must pay shipping as follows: Europe, Asia, Africa, Mexico, and Australia/NZ $39.95 Last time I checked, Norway was in Europe. Throw half a dozen people in your playgroup together, buy half a dozen boxes, pay $5-10 dollars each for shipping and save yourself about $30 a box. You'll lose a bit on the credit card transaction, too, but a lot of credit card companies (at least in the UK and US that I'm aware of) have fairly competitive exchange rates - a lot better than they used to be, anyway, probably to encourage Internet use. Also, it may be worth pointing this out to your local store (or wherever you're buying from currently). If they're thinking buying up a stock of them for sale, there may be enough of a margin on a large shipment for them to make a profit at, say, $120. $99 + a small amount of shipping (say, a 20 box order = $101 per box), wait, sell for $120, profit = $19. If that's too many for one shop, and there's more than one shop in your area, or there's another city nearby you sometimes visit, organise a group deal. Buy ten for one, ten for another (get it in writing...), stick a couple of sneaky boxes on for yourself and deliver. Bear in mind that you can order multiple different boxes in one order. Sabbat War is out (all but !Ven starters), but all of Final Nights is in. Order a couple of boxes of Final Nights boosters for each, order a couple of boxes of Bloodlines for each, throw a box of each on top for yourself. 10 boxes = $103 each - $40 shipping is $4 per box, plus $99. You could even pick and choose a few starters while you were at it, if you want specific cards from them (e.g. Kiss of Ra, Dreams of the Sphinx). Seems doable. And if you sell them to the stores for even, say, $105, you should make enough money to cover petrol and stuff. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:s2Z$yZJ9QA...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > > Followers of Set gets you Catatonic Fear, 4 lots of Corruption (always > useful), The Damned (urgle), Humanitas, Marijava Ghoul, Secure Haven, > Banishment, Elder Impersonation, Aire of Elation (three) and White > Phosphorus Grenade. If Staredown becomes more popular, assuming the re- > write of Majesty does happen, that's there too. Enchant Kindred is > pretty good, though Govern is probably still better. Oh, and Catacombs > too. > Also Temptation. Oh, and... The Damned??? One pool and an MPA for conditionally emptying out a weenie vamp, very slowly? Something I'm missing here?

In message <oNZ_8.628480$cQ3.101497@sccrnsc01>, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes: >"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message >news:s2Z$yZJ9QA...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... >> Followers of Set gets you Catatonic Fear, 4 lots of Corruption (always >> useful), The Damned (urgle), Humanitas, Marijava Ghoul, Secure Haven, >> Banishment, Elder Impersonation, Aire of Elation (three) and White >> Phosphorus Grenade. If Staredown becomes more popular, assuming the re- >> write of Majesty does happen, that's there too. Enchant Kindred is >> pretty good, though Govern is probably still better. Oh, and Catacombs >> too. >> >Also Temptation. Forgot about that one, and was tending to drop the specific cards unless there was something really notable - like having four lots of Corruption. [ quoted text not captured ]

"The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d3afff5...@text.giganews.com... > Simple Math > (ie, why the price of Freak Drive will not decrease with > the release of the Camarilla Edition) > > In a random distribution, you will not get more than 1.08 of any > individual uncommon in a box of boosters. > > This works out to 1 Freak Drive per box. Quite so. Which is better than buying more Jyhad boxes looking for Freak Drives. And it was less rare in Jyhad than in VTES, and hasn't been in any other set since. :-) I think you're right that Freak Drive isn't going to become nearly as cheap as people might hope - I'm sure it's not going to be selling on Ebay for any $0.50 any time soon. But it could, IMO, pretty easily end up at a "strong uncommon" price in the $3 range, where 2nd Tradition and Taste of Vitae often seem to be valued. That'd at least be an improvement over the current $5-10. ;-) Plus, speaking for myself, I'm seriously considering buying, say, four boxes of Camarilla Edition boosters, largely to get the 4 expected Freak Drives (and of course the other good rares and uncommons and new cards and vampires). As I mentioned a moment ago, it's more cost-efficient than buying Jyhad or VTES boxes, at *today's* prices ($59 for Jyhad boosters and $118 for VTES boosters at Potomac). Of course it's also true that I could buy four existing Freak Drives for probably not more than $40 - quite a bit less than the $228 I'm contemplating spending on Camarilla Edition boxes. But I wouldn't be buying the CE boxes *just* for the Freaks... I'd be getting more Taste of Vitae, 2nd Tradition, all kinds of other good stuff too. Not to mention the new vampires that you've recently been suggesting will be selling for big bucks. :-) > There is no reason to suspect that players will acquire Camarilla > Edition in the quantities they did for Jyhad (that $52 difference), so > Freak Drive will not be in any more significant circulation than it > was previously. Not in the quantities that Jyhad has been purchased, sure. But if it's bought at all, there'll be more Freak Drives out there than there were before. Josh and some of them will be mine, all mine!

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ahhths$srge6$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>... > and uncommons and new cards and vampires). As I mentioned a > moment ago, it's more cost-efficient than buying Jyhad or VTES > boxes, at *today's* prices ($59 for Jyhad boosters and $118 for > VTES boosters at Potomac). You do realize you can get a box of Jyhad booster for around $20 on eBay, don't you? You can also get a box of Jyhad starters for around that much. Granted, you have to keep an eye out for the good deals, but I've bought several boxes of original Jyhad that way, and have plenty of Freak Drives now, along with the Traditions, Tastes, Soul Gems, Ivory Bows, etc. I really recommend eBay to anyone over the distributors like Potomac, though Diverzions sometimes had good prices on their site (http://corporate.auctionworks.com/store/default.asp?sfid=1203 or www.diverzions.com). JSpektr

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<6o7aV1g0...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > >> Well, I'm guessing there will be a tremendous amount of Freak Drives here > in > >> Trondheim, Norway as each booster box costs $140. wohoo... > > > >Shipping can't be *that* expensive! > Assuming this is US dollars, try: > Bear in mind that you can order multiple different boxes in one order. > Sabbat War is out (all but !Ven starters), but all of Final Nights is > in. Order a couple of boxes of Final Nights boosters for each, order a > couple of boxes of Bloodlines for each, throw a box of each on top for > yourself. 10 boxes = $103 each - $40 shipping is $4 per box, plus $99. > You could even pick and choose a few starters while you were at it, if > you want specific cards from them (e.g. Kiss of Ra, Dreams of the > Sphinx). > Seems doable. And if you sell them to the stores for even, say, $105, > you should make enough money to cover petrol and stuff. Ordering from white wolf isn't very rewarding because the list prices are quite high. When receiving stuff from outside of EU to EU, they add the VAT and tariffs to the total price of the sent goods (including S&H) at the border. So for instance back in Finland a booster box ordered from WW would cost me 99$ + 1$ (for S&H of 40 boxes per box :) so the price for each box would be 100$, but since they add VAT (22%) and tariffs (around 3%), it comes to 125$ per box, and that ain't cheap. It must be similar kind of thing in Norway. So one should use ebay for the purchases since that is the place I think the base price will be lowest. I've bought a couple boxes of boosters from there and the final price has been quite comfortable. Jukka Lindstrom - Big in Japan

prime_at_...@hotmail.com (Jukka Lindstrom) wrote in message news:<74b21954.02072...@posting.google.com>... > James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<6o7aV1g0...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > > >> Well, I'm guessing there will be a tremendous amount of Freak Drives here > in > > >> Trondheim, Norway as each booster box costs $140. wohoo... > 99$ + 1$ (for S&H of 40 boxes per box :) > > so the price for each box would be 100$, but since they add VAT (22%) > and tariffs (around 3%), it comes to 125$ per box, and that ain't > cheap. > (Posted mostly in jest) C'mon, now. You cannot blame White Wolf for the obscene amount of taxes levvied to keep a cushy, socialist, care for you cradle-to-grave, government adequately funded to care for your carcass 'till its buried... Retail cost of boosters is the same as with US citizens, and CE is ripe for the buying in Europe, what with the US dollar being in the proverbial crapper. ...See if you cannot get a cultural VAT tax exemption. Start a movement... spread some flyers, distribute some pamphlets. ;-) DaveZ Atom Weaver

In message <74b21954.02072...@posting.google.com>, Jukka Lindstrom <prime_at_...@hotmail.com> writes: >99$ + 1$ (for S&H of 40 boxes per box :) > >so the price for each box would be 100$, but since they add VAT (22%) >and tariffs (around 3%), it comes to 125$ per box, and that ain't >cheap. Which is still cheaper than the $140 per box cited. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <74b21954.02072...@posting.google.com>, Jukka Lindstrom <prime_at_...@hotmail.com> wrote: >Ordering from white wolf isn't very rewarding because the list prices >are quite high. When receiving stuff from outside of EU to EU, they >add the VAT and tariffs to the total price of the sent goods >(including S&H) at the border. So for instance back in Finland a >booster box ordered from WW would cost me > >99$ + 1$ (for S&H of 40 boxes per box :) Wait. They charge you tax on economic activity taking place _outside_ your national borders? *boggle* gomi buying a very fast cigarette boat, smuggling VAT-free VTES to Europe -- Blood, guts, guns, cuts Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts

In message <ahp95i$ril$1...@panix2.panix.com>, Gomi no Sensei <go...@panix.com> writes: >Wait. They charge you tax on economic activity taking place _outside_ >your national borders? > >*boggle* Try going on holiday and bringing back lots of goods to your own country that aren't duty free. [ quoted text not captured ]

prime_at_...@hotmail.com (Jukka Lindstrom) wrote in message news:<74b21954.02072...@posting.google.com>... > Ordering from white wolf isn't very rewarding because the list prices > are quite high. When receiving stuff from outside of EU to EU, they > add the VAT and tariffs to the total price of the sent goods > (including S&H) at the border. So for instance back in Finland a > booster box ordered from WW would cost me > > 99$ + 1$ (for S&H of 40 boxes per box :) > > so the price for each box would be 100$, but since they add VAT (22%) > and tariffs (around 3%), it comes to 125$ per box, and that ain't > cheap. > > It must be similar kind of thing in Norway. So one should use ebay for > the purchases since that is the place I think the base price will be > lowest. I've bought a couple boxes of boosters from there and the > final price has been quite comfortable. > > Jukka Lindstrom > > - Big in Japan Have you looked at potomac dis. ? http://www.potomacdist.com/ CE booster boxes for 57$.

Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > In article <74b21954.02072...@posting.google.com>, > Jukka Lindstrom <prime_at_...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >Ordering from white wolf isn't very rewarding because the list prices > >are quite high. When receiving stuff from outside of EU to EU, they > >add the VAT and tariffs to the total price of the sent goods > >(including S&H) at the border. So for instance back in Finland a > >booster box ordered from WW would cost me > > > >99$ + 1$ (for S&H of 40 boxes per box :) > > Wait. They charge you tax on economic activity taking place _outside_ > your national borders? > > *boggle* Actually, they'd be "importing" stuff - so it wouldn't be taking place outside their borders. (Of course, if they were to open all the packs and just bring back the cards in an old box, I'm not sure how anyone could prove they hadn't taken the stuff out with them in the first place...) I'm sure the EU doesn't charge tax on, say, food you bought and ate in the U.S. Fred

In article <3D406736...@removethis.com>, Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote: >Actually, they'd be "importing" stuff - so it wouldn't be taking place >outside their borders. (Of course, if they were to open all the packs >and just bring back the cards in an old box, I'm not sure how anyone >could prove they hadn't taken the stuff out with them in the first place...) Yeah, you and James are quite right -- I wasn't paying attention. 22.5% does seem awful high, tho. gomi FATVAT [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <ahpppq$9t3$1...@panix2.panix.com>, Gomi no Sensei <go...@panix.com> writes: >22.5% does seem awful high, tho. Varies from country to country. And the burden of tax may fall in all sorts of different areas. One important point to note with the UK is that, unlike the US, Sales Tax (VAT in the UK) doesn't apply to quite a lot of basic items - basic foodstuffs, some clothing items (generally children) and the like. It's also notable that the Scandinavian countries have a generally high tax burden, relative to other countries, which generates some *extremely* good public services. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:kXxN8KBy$JQ9...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <ahpppq$9t3$1...@panix2.panix.com>, Gomi no Sensei > One important point to note with the UK is that, unlike the US, Sales > Tax (VAT in the UK) doesn't apply to quite a lot of basic items - basic > foodstuffs, some clothing items (generally children) and the like. Actually, I am unaware of any area in the US that has sales tax on basic food items. :) Restaurants, candy, etc. don't count as basic food, though... Additionally, here in Minnesota (stupid frozen north), there is no tax on clothing either. Something to do with how the textile industry used to be (still is?) huge here. Nifty, hmm? Then again, we're not quite caught up on that whole health care thing and such. > It's also notable that the Scandinavian countries have a generally high > tax burden, relative to other countries, which generates some > *extremely* good public services. We are most certainly aware of this. However, I'm guessing that most of the Scandinavian countries don't have as many backwoods moonshiners (and the like) that are concerned about the gummint, and the UN black helicopters and all. :) Xian unconcerned

"Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote: >"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message >news:kXxN8KBy$JQ9...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... >> In message <ahpppq$9t3$1...@panix2.panix.com>, Gomi no Sensei >> One important point to note with the UK is that, unlike the US, Sales >> Tax (VAT in the UK) doesn't apply to quite a lot of basic items - basic >> foodstuffs, some clothing items (generally children) and the like. > >Actually, I am unaware of any area in the US that has sales tax on basic food >items. South Carolina does. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson

In message <ahqko5$vcfnd$1...@ID-123937.news.dfncis.de>, Xian <xi...@waste.org> writes: >Actually, I am unaware of any area in the US that has sales tax on basic food >items. :) Restaurants, candy, etc. don't count as basic food, though... The British lists for stuff can be quite extensive and bizarre. It's only recently that a number of things like tampons have been put on it, and from my basic bits of reading, it can vary a lot in America as to what goes where. Looking through some of the stuff from Utah was amusing, mostly because it proved just how weird politicians are the world over. One of the bizarre arguments in the past has been Jaffa Cakes. Are they cakes (in which case they're basic food items and exempt from VAT) or are they biscuits (in which case they're not)? Yes, that *is* the right way round - biscuits are the luxury, here. The argument happened to do with whether or not they went hard or soft when stale. As I recall, the side with the most expensive lawyers won. This can even go as far as milkshakes and cartons of milk bought from McDonald's for take-away purposes being exempt. (Eating in is separate. Hot food is separate.) Oh, as I recall, sales tax is payable on books in America? Ours are zero rated but, annoyingly, books with CDs (or similar, lots of computer books) don't count as books for this purpose, damnit. This can explain some of the bizarre price differentials on the back of books when you think "But that book was $35 and this one was $40, so why's the UK price gone up so much?" One common dodge for this sort of thing, however, is to ask someone in America (or wherever) to post it to you in wrapping paper, with a card saying "Happy Birthday <blah>" stuck to it too. Gifts don't generally attract additional taxes. Or, if you have a trustworthy face, just walk through customs the next time you're on holiday/business there with a couple of boxes in your luggage. One friend who travels round the world a lot, mostly Europe and America, has, in the past, attempted to pay the duty on some items. When they opened his case and saw some clothes, some books, some CDs and so on, and that in all they'd probably get 50-100 quid out of him, they decided it was just too complex to be even remotely worth it, probably costing them more than that in all the forms. [ quoted text not captured ]

"L. Scott Johnson" <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote in message news:ahrd1p$vimgv$1...@ID-99714.news.dfncis.de... > "Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote: > >Actually, I am unaware of any area in the US that has sales tax on basic food > >items. > > South Carolina does. Well, I'll be damned. </wiggum> That's what I get for never having visited South Carolina. Anyway, before this gets too wildly OT, it'd be interesting if anyone can recall which states (drat that independence thing) have 0% sales tax across the board, because in theory, it would be cheaper (for anyone, really) to order V:tES cards from someplace located in one of those crazy crazy states. IIRC, Florida doesn't have an income tax, but has a hefty sales tax on all non-essentials (to help out all those retirees). I recall Alaska being pretty weird too, but don't remember the details. Xian

Xian wrote: > > "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message > news:kXxN8KBy$JQ9...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > > In message <ahpppq$9t3$1...@panix2.panix.com>, Gomi no Sensei > > One important point to note with the UK is that, unlike the US, Sales > > Tax (VAT in the UK) doesn't apply to quite a lot of basic items - basic > > foodstuffs, some clothing items (generally children) and the like. > > Actually, I am unaware of any area in the US that has sales tax on basic food > items. :) Restaurants, candy, etc. don't count as basic food, though... South Dakota did, when I lived there. I believe (that was a _long_ time ago...). I remember being surprised when I moved to Minnesota and discovered some things didn't have sales tax. It seemed pretty weird: how do they figure out whether chocolate-covered broccoli is candy or basic food? Fred

Xian wrote: > > Anyway, before this gets too wildly OT, it'd be interesting if anyone can recall > which states (drat that independence thing) have 0% sales tax across the board, > because in theory, it would be cheaper (for anyone, really) to order V:tES cards > from someplace located in one of those crazy crazy states. IIRC, Florida > doesn't have an income tax, but has a hefty sales tax on all non-essentials (to > help out all those retirees). I recall Alaska being pretty weird too, but don't > remember the details. Um, why are you worried about it? Any mail order that crosses state lines cannot be charged sales tax. Taxing interstate commerce is a power reserved for the federal government, who currently declines to so (at least, not in the form of a sales tax). Therefore, for your purposes (or anyone who doesn't live in Virginia), buying from Potomac Distribution works just fine. Fred

> yeah, yeah, but repeat after me : ARCHON is NEVER PUT IN PLAY =) > So i can rush you 4 times in a row, in the same turn, using 3 freak drives > if my deck allows it. period. ARCHON is NEVER PUT IN PLAY.... ARCHON is NEVER PUT IN PLAY.... ARCHON is NEVER PUT IN PLAY.... HEY!!! stop that! :-) I tried to respond to this earlier but wasn't able to send the message... I started a thread on this in the WW forum. this is certainly true, but there was a suggestion on changing 'card in play' to 'card played'. the only cards really affected would be templar and archon. nice idea IMO, but two cards that open loopholes (where you also need additional resources) is not that bad anyway.

"Frederick Scott" <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:3D41757F...@removethis.com... > Xian wrote: > > > I remember being surprised when I moved to Minnesota and discovered some things > didn't have sales tax. It seemed pretty weird: how do they figure out whether > chocolate-covered broccoli is candy or basic food? *Anything* with chocolate is basic food, of course. It's the broccoli that's the luxury :) Patrick

Frederick Scott wrote: > Any mail order that crosses state lines cannot > be charged sales tax. Possibly, but only because the sales tax is called a "use tax" in that case (the effect is the same). For instance: www.revenue.state.il.us/legalinformation/ letter/rulings/st/1999/sg990271.PDF www.michigan.gov/documents/48f7_5048_7.pdf -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > > Frederick Scott wrote: > > Any mail order that crosses state lines cannot > > be charged sales tax. > > Possibly, but only because the sales tax is called a "use tax" in that > case (the effect is the same). > > For instance: > www.revenue.state.il.us/legalinformation/ letter/rulings/st/1999/sg990271.PDF > www.michigan.gov/documents/48f7_5048_7.pdf Interesting. I did not know that. I wonder how many states have that law. (And I wonder what the compliance rate is. Sounds like another personal property tax in terms of enforcement headaches to me.) Fred

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<kXxN8KBy$JQ9...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > One important point to note with the UK is that, unlike the US, Sales > Tax (VAT in the UK) doesn't apply to quite a lot of basic items - basic > foodstuffs, some clothing items (generally children) and the like. You consider children to generally be clothing items? I knew you were disturbed, but that's a bit much. JSpektr This is sarcasm, in case anyone doesn't realize it.

"Frederick Scott" <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:3D4185A6...@removethis.com... > Interesting. I did not know that. I wonder how many states have that law. Many, if not most, AFAIK. > (And I wonder what the compliance rate is. Low. :) Xian taxing

"Frederick Scott" <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:3D41757F...@removethis.com... > I remember being surprised when I moved to Minnesota and discovered some things > didn't have sales tax. It seemed pretty weird: how do they figure out whether Fred, Minnesota is weird. Very very weird. :) (And this is coming from someone born & raised in Wisconsin, land of serial killers.) > chocolate-covered broccoli is candy or basic food? Tough call. Heh. Xian Tremere thug of Minneapolis and Cardano's bitch

Howdy, > Anyway, before this gets too wildly OT, it'd be interesting if anyone can recall > which states (drat that independence thing) have 0% sales tax across the board, Having lived for a while in New Hampshire, I can report that unless things have changed fairly recently, they not only have no sales tax, but also have no income tax. And yet somehow the roads were pretty OK, and snow removal was miraculously good. Or maybe that was just Hanover (college town). 'Live free or die,' indeed. > because in theory, it would be cheaper (for anyone, really) to order V:tES cards > from someplace located in one of those crazy crazy states. IIRC, Florida > doesn't have an income tax, but has a hefty sales tax on all non-essentials (to > help out all those retirees). I recall Alaska being pretty weird too, but don't > remember the details. I remember there beind at least one other state with similar tax law - I just don't remember which anymore. I know Alaska is weird - they pay you to live there. Hope that helps, Alex

In message <15a537b3.02072...@posting.google.com>, Alex Broadhead <wum...@attbi.com> writes: >Having lived for a while in New Hampshire, I can report that unless >things have changed fairly recently, they not only have no sales tax, >but also have no income tax. And yet somehow the roads were pretty >OK, and snow removal was miraculously good. Or maybe that was just >Hanover (college town). 'Live free or die,' indeed. As I recall, New Hampshire has pretty high property taxes, however. A lot of the state garnered revenue - that other people spread about amongst sales tax, state income tax or whatever - is got through property tax. http://www.state.nh.us/revenue/forms/forms.htm "New Hampshire does not have a general sales tax or an income tax on an individual's earned income. Therefore, you will not find sales or income tax forms on this site. There are taxes on an individual's interest and dividends income, inheritance, business taxes, consumer excise taxes and other taxes as listed below. Fuel taxes are administered by the NH Dept. of Safety Road Toll office..." Also, try: http://www.bankrate.com/yho/itax/edit/state/profiles/state_tax_NH.asp [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <196f2577.02072...@posting.google.com>, jspektr <jsp...@sprynet.com> writes: >You consider children to generally be clothing items? I find that three year olds can produce extremely useful scarves. It's the tenderness of the skin, you see. Very soft and silky. [ quoted text not captured ]