Why doesn´t Nagaraja get any good clan cards?

Any suggestions? Is it because Le Dinh Tho and Sennadurek are so awesome? This far we have: Consume the Dead [LoB:R] Cardtype: Action/Reaction Clan: Nagaraja Burn Option [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or burn a wraith retainer. [REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood, where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer. Emergency Rations [LoB:R] Cardtype: Action Clan: Nagaraja +1 stealth action. Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one Emergency Rations. Ritual Scalpel [HttB:R] Cardtype: Equipment Clan: Nagaraja Burn Option Unique equipment. If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal (ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action. None of these cards are playable in any decent decks. Compared with the cards for Trujahs and Salubri they are shit.

[ quoted text not captured ] Emergency Rations are good. But the Nagaraja clan is really a support clan, so you won't play more than 1 (therefore any Nagaraja card is a bit useless).

Ashur <ashur.a...@gmail.com> wrote: > Consume the Dead [LoB:R] > Cardtype: Action/Reaction > Clan: Nagaraja > Burn Option > [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or > burn a wraith retainer. > [REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by > any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped > Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This > Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood, > where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer. Shambling Hordes cost 3 blood. Gain 4 blood when they burn. Profit! Just add Unmasking! It isn't bad...

On Jun 3, 2:38 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > Any suggestions? Is it because Le Dinh Tho and Sennadurek are so > awesome? They do usually have good special abilities. Which may be why their clan specific cards aren't as super awesome as others. But they are also better than you seem to imagine. > Consume the Dead [LoB:R] > Cardtype: Action/Reaction > Clan: Nagaraja > Burn Option > [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or > burn a wraith retainer. > [REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by > any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped > Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This > Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood, > where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer. When the Shambling Hordes you made with your NEC get killed blocking, you play this and get 4 blood back? How is this bad? > Emergency Rations [LoB:R] > Cardtype: Action > Clan: Nagaraja > +1 stealth action. > Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from > the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap > phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full > capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one > Emergency Rations. When you have an ash heap full of start up allies for your Shambling Hordes, you can get full of blood? A bit less handy than Consume the Dead in general, but hardly bad. > Ritual Scalpel [HttB:R] > Cardtype: Equipment > Clan: Nagaraja > Burn Option > Unique equipment. > If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional > blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal > (ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action. Do you *not* see Carleton Van Wyk in every single game you play? How is being able to hit him for 1 damage and gain 2 blood (and make his block fail) not a good idea? It is free. It has a totally reasonable default ability. It hoses the Imbued and Carleton. Seems completely solid. > None of these cards are playable in any decent decks. Yeah, I dunno about that. Shambling Horde decks are "decent" decks. Many "decent" decks can use a way to deal with Carleton. -Peter

On 3 juin, 20:38, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Revelations, Govern the Unaligned, Seduction, Call of the Hungry Dead, Conditioning. How could this not be good enough?

On 3 Juni, 21:38, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 3, 2:38 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Any suggestions? Is it because Le Dinh Tho and Sennadurek are so > > awesome? > > They do usually have good special abilities. Which may be why their > clan specific cards aren't as super awesome as others. But they are > also better than you seem to imagine. No, they are not. And except for those mentioned, the vamps aren´t that hot. I haven´t seen them in any tournament decks. Nice specials maybe, but too weird discipline spreads to put to any serious use. Peter D, are you still on WW´s payroll? They still can´t make anything worth critizing huh? > > Consume the Dead [LoB:R] > > Cardtype: Action/Reaction > > Clan: Nagaraja > > Burn Option > > [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or > > burn a wraith retainer. > > [REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by > > any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped > > Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This > > Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood, > > where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer. > > When the Shambling Hordes you made with your NEC get killed blocking, > you play this and get 4 blood back? How is this bad? Because there is no way this card is going to fit in any good deck. > > Emergency Rations [LoB:R] > > Cardtype: Action > > Clan: Nagaraja > > +1 stealth action. > > Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from > > the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap > > phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full > > capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one > > Emergency Rations. > > When you have an ash heap full of start up allies for your Shambling > Hordes, you can get full of blood? A bit less handy than Consume the > Dead in general, but hardly bad. See above. Haven´t seen it in any good deck. > > Ritual Scalpel [HttB:R] > > Cardtype: Equipment > > Clan: Nagaraja > > Burn Option > > Unique equipment. > > If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional > > blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal > > (ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action. > > Do you *not* see Carleton Van Wyk in every single game you play? How > is being able to hit him for 1 damage and gain 2 blood (and make his > block fail) not a good idea? It is free. It has a totally reasonable > default ability. It hoses the Imbued and Carleton. Seems completely > solid. What deck would I play this in? Giovanni S&B w Le Dinh Tho? I don´t think so. If it worked on any ally it would have been another thing. > > None of these cards are playable in any decent decks. > > Yeah, I dunno about that. Shambling Horde decks are "decent" decks. > Many "decent" decks can use a way to deal with Carleton. Try taking a look at the cards for Trujah and Salubri, then get back to me. Not to mention the tem and obe cards.

[ quoted text not captured ] I meant the clan cards. The cards with the Nagaraja symbol to the left of the illustration. The cards that require a Nagaraja in play to play. Do you understand?

[ quoted text not captured ] You do recognize, right, that there's something called balance? Assamites have some kickass clan cards both for story reasons (clan is important) and mechanical reasons (their disciplines are... lackluster). Nagaraja have few and poor clan cards both for story reasons (small, not clan-focused, few advantages) and mechanical reasons (their discipline spread is pretty darn strong). Or do you need a more jackass-ish response, since that's the debate style you seem to prefer? I can try that, if you want - do you not understand the game concept of balance? Are you still on the WW- bashing payroll? Wow. Nothing they make is good enough for you, is it? - D.J.

On Jun 3, 3:53 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > No, they are not. And except for those mentioned, the vamps aren´t > that hot. I haven´t seen them in any tournament decks. Nice specials > maybe, but too weird discipline spreads to put to any serious use. They Dom/Aus/Nec. Which is a very good discipline spread and fits in lots of decks. They a lot of good special abilities--Jozz has a great one; Vejay isn't brilliant, but still not bad a for a 3 cap with AUS; Prejudice's doesn't come up much, but when it does, it is gold; Aguresh has weird disciplines but a very good special; Anu gives all of your minions +1 bleed; Kanimana has great disciplines and a gold special. What isn't to like? > Peter D, are you still on WW´s payroll? Yes. Yes I am. They pay me tons and tons of money. > They still can´t make anything worth critizing huh? Well considering how you seem to be incapable of doing anything other than bitch about things that seem mostly irrelevant, apparently they can. Why do you even play this game? > Because there is no way this card is going to fit in any good deck. If you are using the Nagaraja (who have NEC/DOM, just like the Giovanni) to get your hordes, why would you *not* use this card? I mean, I'm not using 10 or anything, but every time I build a Hordes deck, it has a few Le Din Tho and one of these in it. And it pays off. > See above. Haven´t seen it in any good deck. Considering how much you hate everything in this game, have you ever even *seen* a good deck? > What deck would I play this in? A deck that has a few Nagaraja in it. Whatever deck that is. Mixed into Shambling Hordes Giovanni. Maybe mixed in with the HoS for a Trochomancy deck. The Imbued and Carleton are both not uncommon mortal allies. Carleton reliably shows up in pretty much every game I ever play these days. > Try taking a look at the cards for Trujah and Salubri, then get back > to me. Not to mention the tem and obe cards. Ok? The Salubri get Path of Tears, Sight Beyond Sight, and Journal of Hrosh. Path of Tears is difficult to use (as you need to have it in hand when you play the guy) and doesn't do much (the 3 pool savings is nice, but a Villein is just as good and more likely to pay off) and can be burned. Woo. Sight Beyond Sight is fine, but something you can get in any number of ways. Journal of Hrosh is funny and possibly effective. None of these cards are bad, but none of them are earth shattering either. The Trujah get Path of the Scorched Heart (which is pretty good), Tabriz Assembly (also pretty good), and Vaticination (not horrible). None of these, however, are mind numbingly better than Consume the Dead ("gain 4 blood on a tapped minion when the ally that your are building and fighting with anyway blocks something") or Ritual Scalpel. And yeah, Temporis and Obtenebration have good cards. So do Dominate and Auspex. -Peter

On Jun 3, 1:23 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 3, 3:53 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > No, they are not. And except for those mentioned, the vamps aren´t > > that hot. I haven´t seen them in any tournament decks. Nice specials > > maybe, but too weird discipline spreads to put to any serious use. > > They Dom/Aus/Nec. Which is a very good discipline spread and fits in > lots of decks. They a lot of good special abilities--Jozz has a great > one; Vejay isn't brilliant, but still not bad a for a 3 cap with AUS; > Prejudice's doesn't come up much, but when it does, it is gold; > Aguresh has weird disciplines but a very good special; Anu gives all > of your minions +1 bleed; Kanimana has great disciplines and a gold > special. What isn't to like? The fact that they have crappy clan cards. :) > > Because there is no way this card is going to fit in any good deck. > > If you are using the Nagaraja (who have NEC/DOM, just like the > Giovanni) to get your hordes, why would you *not* use this card? I > mean, I'm not using 10 or anything, but every time I build a Hordes > deck, it has a few Le Din Tho and one of these in it. And it pays off. Ashur's argument is poor, but the real reason you don't use that card in any Hordes decks is because the ashed hordes are removed from the game! This prohibits you from using the dead horde to make more hordes! Major fail with this card. > > What deck would I play this in? > > A deck that has a few Nagaraja in it. Whatever deck that is. Mixed > into Shambling Hordes Giovanni. Maybe mixed in with the HoS for a > Trochomancy deck. The Imbued and Carleton are both not uncommon mortal > allies. Carleton reliably shows up in pretty much every game I ever > play these days. > > > Try taking a look at the cards for Trujah and Salubri, then get back > > to me. Not to mention the tem and obe cards. > > Ok? The Salubri get Path of Tears, Sight Beyond Sight, and Journal of > Hrosh. Path of Tears is difficult to use (as you need to have it in > hand when you play the guy) and doesn't do much (the 3 pool savings is > nice, but a Villein is just as good and more likely to pay off) and > can be burned. Woo. Sight Beyond Sight is fine, but something you can > get in any number of ways. Journal of Hrosh is funny and possibly > effective. None of these cards are bad, but none of them are earth > shattering either. The Trujah get Path of the Scorched Heart (which is > pretty good), Tabriz Assembly (also pretty good), and Vaticination > (not horrible). None of these, however, are mind numbingly better than > Consume the Dead ("gain 4 blood on a tapped minion when the ally that > your are building and fighting with anyway blocks something") or > Ritual Scalpel. And yeah, Temporis and Obtenebration have good cards. > So do Dominate and Auspex. Thing is, you'd have to build a deck around any of the Nagaraja cards to make them even sort of useful. Consume the Dead requires another card in play to be useful--another Methuselah's wraith or

[ quoted text not captured ] (stupid keyboard) ...or a minion being burnt (doesn't happen all the time) and you need the card in hand when the event occurs. Emergency Rations also requires the presence of a mortal in someone's ash heap. The Ritual Scalpel is possibly the best of the lot. It's really a glorified Aaron's Feeding Razor. Perhaps if an additional stealth were awarded, or an untap after hunting, or something decent it might see play. Tabriz Assembly just rocks. All you need is a ready Trujah to play it. Same with Vaticination which gives HUGE information to you, AT THREE STEALTH! The Path of True Heart is kinda meh, but if you're playing combat Trujah, it can be worthwhile. For the Salubri, Path of Tears is not great because it needs to be in hand when the event occurs. I have never played with the Journal of Hrorsh, but at least it doesn't require anything else other than the Salubri who owns it to successfully act. And Sight Beyond Sight is good and doesn't require anything special to use it. And we all know how much Temporis and particularly Obeah rock. So I totally agree with Ashur. Nagaraja clan cards totally suck. They need to get something really darn good to make them playable next set. I kind of think of the Nagaraja as the Ventrue antitribu of the scarce world. !Ventrue used to be pretty horrible until they got good discplines and better cards for Auspex. Just because the Nagaraja can bleed a bit doesn't make them good. Jeff

[ quoted text not captured ] Aside from Le Dinh Tho, he of the incredible special ability, the other Nagaraja have only made spot appearances in the TWDA. It's not good enough. Jeff

On Jun 3, 5:06 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > Ashur's argument is poor, but the real reason you don't use that card > in any Hordes decks is because the ashed hordes are removed from the > game! This prohibits you from using the dead horde to make more > hordes! Major fail with this card. Losing 1 horde to the RFG pile to refill Le Din Tho (who gets -1 stealth when hunting...) is a totally reasonable price to pay for a strong effect. As noted, I'm not gonna use 10 of them. But 1 is totally solid. > Thing is, you'd have to build a deck around any of the Nagaraja cards > to make them even sort of useful. I dunno. Consume the Dead (in limited numbers) is totally reasonable a deck where you are already putting allies into play and already blocking things with them (see: Shambling Hordes). Ritual Scalpel has much less opportunity cost than an ally specific killing card, and is good in many situations (see: Imbued and Carleton). Are they the best cards in the world? Of course not. But they are worth using in the appropriate decks. -Peter

On Jun 3, 5:33 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > Aside from Le Dinh Tho, he of the incredible special ability, the > other Nagaraja have only made spot appearances in the TWDA. That's almost certainly due to the amazing stupidity of the scarce rule, rather than the lack of good clan cards. John Eno

On Jun 3, 6:24 pm, Kushiel <invisibleking...@gmail.com> wrote: > That's almost certainly due to the amazing stupidity of the scarce > rule, rather than the lack of good clan cards. Because the Nagaraja don't have any new disciplines *and* they are scarce, there is zero incentive to build Nagaraja focused decks like there are Salubri or Trujah focused decks. They have new disciplines that do crazy stuff, so people make "Salubri" decks (or more realistically "Matthias" or "Saulot" decks) and "Trujah" decks. People don't do that with the Nagaraja. As they have mundane disciplines. You can get Nec/Dom with the Giovanni or Aus/Dom with the Tremere. So pretty much anything you are going to do with just the Nagaraja, you are going to do more effectively with a non scarce clan and not have to worry about scarcity issues. But the Nagaraja show up all the time as a support clan (Le DIn Tho and Sennadurek most often for obvious reasons). No one is building Salubri or Trujah decks 'cause of their 3 clan specific cards either. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] funny how Nagaraja show up in more TWDA decks than True Brujah and Salubri combined.

Whatever, I'm in the process of building a full Nagaraja deck, it will use Consume the Dead and Emergency Rations a lot for bloat (which won't be that nice due to scarce cost, but it's bloat). What'll probably happen is that in the end it will have only one Nagaraja and support from other clans, though, the scarce price is obviously too high to pay for any reason other than for the lulz.

On 3 kesä, 21:38, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > Any suggestions? Is it because Le Dinh Tho and Sennadurek are so > awesome? It's because they're a clan of individual supporting vampires, sort of like Abominations. You might as well ask why there aren't any cards specific to 3-caps with AUS.

[ quoted text not captured ] Peter, you raise a great point. Because True Brujah, Salubri and Nagaraja are scarce, that drawbacks need to be mitigated somewhat. It seems to me that Temporis and Obeah are stronger disciplines to balance the scarce drawback. However, the Nagaraja have no such balancing factor. True, they do have access to two very strong disciplines (AUS/DOM) and one decent support discipline (NEC), but on the whole I don't think those make up for their lack of other "goodies." So yeah, give 'em one really kick ass clan card next set and we'll quit bitching. :) Jeff

[ quoted text not captured ] Which is probably why this is coming up now - with the Battlelines rules, people are looking again to see if the Nag's can work as a coherent clan. Then they see that really, they have teh suck clan cards, and throw up their hands - nothing new to do with them. Either you can run them as either Powerbleed or Shamblers, Nagaraja style for Battlelines. But nothing new, because a) they don't have their own discipline, and b) they don't have "good" clan cards, just average clan cards. best - chris

[ quoted text not captured ] You can spin it however you like really. Nagaraja are decent as a singular vamp supporting a different crypt. Again, this is part of the whole Scarce thing. As far as in clan stuff they are not that great at all, esp. compared to fellow bloodline members. However, I would never make an all Nagaraja crypt due to 1) Scarce, and 2) They will never be Tier 1. To be quite honest I don't typically aspire anymore to build anything other than Tier 1 decks (90% of the time anyway) and I will look their way for support to my other decks. In that regard they are not bad.

On Jun 3, 10:10 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > Peter, you raise a great point. Because True Brujah, Salubri and > Nagaraja are scarce, that drawbacks need to be mitigated somewhat. It > seems to me that Temporis and Obeah are stronger disciplines to > balance the scarce drawback. However, the Nagaraja have no such > balancing factor. True, they do have access to two very strong > disciplines (AUS/DOM) and one decent support discipline (NEC), but on > the whole I don't think those make up for their lack of other > "goodies." Maybe? The Nagaraja show up a lot in tournament winning decks. Well, by "Nagaraja", I mean "Le Dinh Tho", but Sennadurek and Kanimana show up a bunch as well. But simply 'cause they don't have their own discipline, there isn't really a reason to make a deck out of them. Which strikes me as fine, as the intention of Sacrce vampires is, generally speaking, for them to be support vampires rather than the focus of a deck. Which is what the Nagaraja are. > So yeah, give 'em one really kick ass clan card next set and we'll > quit bitching. :) I mean, I wouldn't pooh-pooh some sort of super cool Nagaraja card or anything. But the ones they have already are totally reasonable and thematically appropriate. I mean, again, no one is going to burn up the NAC with Death Eater or anything, but it is a totally playable and useful card. -Peter

> > So yeah, give 'em one really kick ass clan card next set and we'll > > quit bitching. :) > I mean, I wouldn't pooh-pooh some sort of super cool Nagaraja card or > anything. But the ones they have already are totally reasonable and > thematically appropriate. I mean, again, no one is going to burn up > the NAC with Death Eater or anything, but it is a totally playable and > useful card. Death Eater is a Harbingers card and it is ass. But I agree with you, that those Nagaraja Cards that are kind of like Death Eater but better are playable but not great. What would a kick-ass Nagaraja card be like? Unnatural Tribute Master, Trifle, requires Nagaraja Place this card on a ready Nagaraja you control. You may use a discard phase action to move this card from to your hand and move two blood from this Nagaraja to your pool. Morsel of Flesh 1 blood, requires Nagaraja Burn this card during your untap phase. [action modifier] Only usable when a bleed action is declared. Place this card on this acting vampire. When a bleed is successful, this Nagaraja may burn this card for +1 bleed. [combat] Place this card on this vampire before range is determined on a round of combat. The Nagaraja with this card has +2 strength. (worded so as to thwart Mata Hari)

I mean, again, no one is going to burn up > > the NAC with Death Eater or anything, but it is a totally playable and > > useful card. > > Death Eater is a Harbingers card and it is ass. But I agree with you, > that those Nagaraja Cards that are kind of like Death Eater but better > are playable but not great. Oh, wait, that's GHOST Eater. There's no such card as Death Eater, right?

On Jun 4, 10:04 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > Death Eater is a Harbingers card and it is ass. Yes. Clearly I meant "Consume the Dead" or whatever. -Peter

On Jun 4, 8:18 am, RoddPrime <roddpr...@gmail.com> wrote: >Nagaraja are decent as a singular vamp supporting a different crypt. As that was the intention for scarce bloodlines vamps, they are doing just fine then. -Peter

On Jun 4, 10:06 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > I mean, again, no one is going to burn up > > Oh, wait, that's GHOST Eater. There's no such card as Death Eater, > right? Maybe? It strikes me as clear enough from the context of the discussion that I meant to say "Consume the Dead", as that is: A) A Nagaraja card, which is what is under discussion. and B) A Nagaraja card that is being discussed by me in this thread as a card that is reasonably good. as well as C) A card with a name similar enough to "Death Eater" that if one were posting in a rush, one might accidentally write that instead of "Consume the Dead". In that last post, I wrote "Death Eater" as I was in a rush and made a simple error. I'm not quite sure why it is getting your panties in a twist. -Peter

Peter D Bakija wrote: > > In that last post, I wrote "Death Eater" as I was in a rush and made a > simple error. I'm not quite sure why it is getting your panties in a > twist. > What if his panties looked like this? http://tinyurl.com/rosie-panties (not safe for some works, like elementary schools, junior high schools, certain religious organizations, etc. Yay for the new Transformers girl!) best - chris

[ quoted text not captured ] I'm not sure of that. If Truejah and Salubri were meant to be played as single support vamps, why give them their own discipline? Having their own discipline just begs to build a full deck around them. Especially Truejah, who don't really combo well with other existing clans, except perhaps Brujah (Pot/Pre). Of course, I am mostly just thinking of G2 Bloodlines vamps, the first wave of them as it were. best - chris

[ quoted text not captured ] Yeah, I need some more jackass-ish response. Fire at will! floppyzedolfin reply was clearly intended to make me look like a fool, and I replied approriately. The nagaraja clan cards suck. Just check the TWDA for gods sake. Nothing about "game balance" hinders them to get some decent clan cards.

On 3 Juni, 22:23, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 3, 3:53 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > No, they are not. And except for those mentioned, the vamps aren´t > > that hot. I haven´t seen them in any tournament decks. Nice specials > > maybe, but too weird discipline spreads to put to any serious use. > > They Dom/Aus/Nec. Which is a very good discipline spread and fits in > lots of decks. They a lot of good special abilities--Jozz has a great > one; Vejay isn't brilliant, but still not bad a for a 3 cap with AUS; > Prejudice's doesn't come up much, but when it does, it is gold; > Aguresh has weird disciplines but a very good special; Anu gives all > of your minions +1 bleed; Kanimana has great disciplines and a gold > special. What isn't to like? What decks does it fit in? Giovanni power-bleed and Shambling decks are the almost only decks I´ve seen them in. I don´t think the Nags got better specials than Trujahs or Salubri, if that is your argument. > > Peter D, are you still on WW´s payroll? > > Yes. Yes I am. They pay me tons and tons of money. Then I really don´t think it´s nice of you to speak out here without stating that. > > > They still can´t make anything worth critizing huh? > > Well considering how you seem to be incapable of doing anything other > than bitch about things that seem mostly irrelevant, apparently they > can. Why do you even play this game? Because I think it´s fun. Why do you play? Because you like Gary Chatterton artwork? > > Because there is no way this card is going to fit in any good deck. > > If you are using the Nagaraja (who have NEC/DOM, just like the > Giovanni) to get your hordes, why would you *not* use this card? I > mean, I'm not using 10 or anything, but every time I build a Hordes > deck, it has a few Le Din Tho and one of these in it. And it pays off. > > > See above. Haven´t seen it in any good deck. > > Considering how much you hate everything in this game, have you ever > even *seen* a good deck? I don´t hate everything about this game. Check the TWDAs for example, for some good decks. That is the kind of decks that see play in my playgroup, and that is the kind of material I would like when I open a booster. If now WW is into selling boosters. Maybe they are more into selling crap to people like you, I don´t know. > > > What deck would I play this in? > > A deck that has a few Nagaraja in it. Whatever deck that is. Mixed > into Shambling Hordes Giovanni. Maybe mixed in with the HoS for a > Trochomancy deck. Yeeeah, a trochomancy deck. Try to win some tournaments with that, or at least take some VPs in a enviroment with not only total morons. > The Imbued and Carleton are both not uncommon mortal > allies. Carleton reliably shows up in pretty much every game I ever > play these days. So why not use Far mastery or a rush, which is much more versetile? > > Try taking a look at the cards for Trujah and Salubri, then get back > > to me. Not to mention the tem and obe cards. > > Ok? The Salubri get Path of Tears, Sight Beyond Sight, and Journal of > Hrosh. Path of Tears is difficult to use (as you need to have it in > hand when you play the guy) and doesn't do much (the 3 pool savings is > nice, but a Villein is just as good and more likely to pay off) and > can be burned. Woo. Sight Beyond Sight is fine, but something you can > get in any number of ways. LOL! How do you get a permantent non-conditional intercept on a vamp without taking an action? > Journal of Hrosh is funny and possibly > effective. None of these cards are bad, but none of them are earth > shattering either. The Trujah get Path of the Scorched Heart (which is > pretty good), Tabriz Assembly (also pretty good), "Pretty good". Are you serious? +1 hand size and personal HG, "pretty good"? > and Vaticination (not horrible). See Jeff Kutas answer. Total information about all hands, discard a card AND +3 stealth, and you think it´s just "not horrible". > None of these, however, are mind numbingly better than > Consume the Dead ("gain 4 blood on a tapped minion when the ally that > your are building and fighting with anyway blocks something") or > Ritual Scalpel. And yeah, Temporis and Obtenebration have good cards. > So do Dominate and Auspex. Please get back to reviewing Gary Chatterton artwork.

> In that last post, I wrote "Death Eater" as I was in a rush and made a > simple error. I'm not quite sure why it is getting your panties in a > twist. I think you're projecting...

On Jun 4, 12:18 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > I'm not sure of that. If Truejah and Salubri were meant to be played as > single support vamps, why give them their own discipline? 'Cause they had their own discipline in the source material. Which is why historically, the Nosferatu sucked for an incredibly long time and the Malkavians were ridiculously powerful for a long time--'cause in the RPG, they got those disciplines, so in the CCG, they got those disciplines, and it just happened to turn out that, say, Obf/Dom was incredibly effective at winning the game where, say, Obf/Pot, not as much. They could have made the Trujah and the Salubri without their own disciplines, and then people would have been all "Why the hell didn't the Trujah and the Salubri get their own disciplines?!?!?" > Having their own discipline just begs to build a full deck around them. Sure. But the scarcity penalty begs to not build a full deck around them. Which results in wacky compromises of deck building. I mean, I'm sure someone somwhere has built an all Nagaraja deck at some point that was good at, well, something. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Uh, yeah. That's it. -Peter

On Jun 4, 1:03 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > What decks does it fit in? What? Kanimana Belgazi giving you increased hand size and having DOM/ AUS/NEC/pro? A deck that wants increased hand size while using those disciplines. > Giovanni power-bleed and Shambling decks > are the almost only decks I´ve seen them in. I don´t think the Nags > got better specials than Trujahs or Salubri, if that is your argument. I never said they got better specials than the Trujah or the Salubri. I said they got good specials. > Then I really don´t think it´s nice of you to speak out here without > stating that. Blink. Blink. > Because I think it´s fun. Why do you play? Because you like Gary > Chatterton artwork? Wow. You are simply too much of a douche bag to continue discussing this with. Good luck. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Don't worry Peter, it has to do with our friends Harry, Ron, and Hermione... best - chris http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Reviews/HarryPotter/Docs/Quiz-House.html

Peter D Bakija wrote: > On Jun 4, 12:18 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: >> I'm not sure of that. If Truejah and Salubri were meant to be played as >> single support vamps, why give them their own discipline? > > 'Cause they had their own discipline in the source material. Which is > why historically, the Nosferatu sucked for an incredibly long time and > the Malkavians were ridiculously powerful for a long time--'cause in > the RPG, they got those disciplines, so in the CCG, they got those > disciplines, and it just happened to turn out that, say, Obf/Dom was > incredibly effective at winning the game where, say, Obf/Pot, not as > much. > > They could have made the Trujah and the Salubri without their own > disciplines, and then people would have been all "Why the hell didn't > the Trujah and the Salubri get their own disciplines?!?!?" > >> Having their own discipline just begs to build a full deck around them. > > Sure. But the scarcity penalty begs to not build a full deck around > them. Which results in wacky compromises of deck building. Ok, didn't know that about source material. I mean, I'm > sure someone somwhere has built an all Nagaraja deck at some point > that was good at, well, something. > I challenge you on that. Maybe good at sucking. I really hoped the Battlelines would bring out the Nagaraja clan lovers. But I bet there are few. Nagaraja as clan are just plain boring. Although they have a pretty good discipline spread, they don't have much spice... best - chris

On Jun 4, 5:05 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > What if his panties looked like this? > > http://tinyurl.com/rosie-panties > > (not safe for some works, like elementary schools, junior high schools, > certain religious organizations, etc. Yay for the new Transformers girl!) > It shows how out of the loop I am that I initially thought you were making a Kiss Players reference. Kevin Walsh

On Jun 4, 6:57 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Don't worry Peter, it has to do with our friends Harry, Ron, and Hermione... Damn those Death Eaters! -Peter

On Jun 4, 7:01 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > I challenge you on that. Maybe good at sucking. I'm sure someone out there was like "I love the Nagaraja! I want to make a deck out of them!" and, ya know, they have Dominate and Auspex, both of which can make something happen, and Necromancy to help the happening occur. Or something. I mean, I doubt it was super awesome. Or even particularly good. But I'm sure someone has tried. I mean, like, some deck of 3 each of Le Dinh Tho and Kanimana Belgazi that is backed up by 6 random dominate weenies (heck, if you go G2-3, you can get a bunch of dom/aus and dom/nec 3-4 caps) is gonna get some VPs. > Nagaraja as clan are just plain boring. Although they have a pretty good > discipline spread, they don't have much spice... Oh, sure. I don't dispute that at all. But given that the initial plan for the Bloodlines clans was to make clans that mix in as a sideline to other clans for the most part, rather than be clans that stand on their own, the Nagaraja are some of the most successful at that, in a design sense (and an actual sense--they are great adjuncts to other clans, and don't do much on their own). Yeah, the Trujah and the Salubri are much sexier and much more likely to be the basis for decks. But until, like, Summon History hit the streets, were the Trujah really tearing up the competitive scene? The Salubri are pretty much the best of all three (oh, those poor Abominations...) and they have a lot going on with Healiristry. But in terms of what I have all the reason in the world to believe was the initial intention of (certainly the scarce) Bloodlines clans, the Nagaraja work just fine. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Douche bag or not, at least I got some solid arguments.

[ quoted text not captured ] Except that BECAUSE you sound and come across like a complete and utter over filled, some what rotting douche bag, no one will listen to what you say, cos, yah know, you sound like a douche bag

On Jun 5, 5:15 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > Douche bag or not, at least I got some solid arguments. And how! I'm convinced! Oh, wait. We have previously established your inability to understand sarcasm. Never mind. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Obviously someone listens. And yes, I am sorry if I seem to be somewhat stupid, but I´m tired of always getting the same kind of replies on any critizism versus WW from Peter B. And always a bunch of "sarcasm" from people that don´t have any good arguments.

Ashur <ashur.a...@gmail.com> wrote: >Obviously someone listens. And yes, I am sorry if I seem to be >somewhat stupid, but I´m tired of always getting the same kind of >replies on any critizism versus WW from Peter B. You don't. Peter quite often admits that a whole bunch of cards are crappy. (I think he tends to use the word "janky".) If he's disagreeing with you, it's usually because he sees a potential use for good. It might not be a Tier 1, super super must win the NAC use for the card, but it can be a solid use for an interesting deck that has potential. And, you know, sometimes people are wrong. People might think bad cards are good. That doesn't mean WW employ them. >And always a bunch of >"sarcasm" from people that don´t have any good arguments. Given that you hurl abuse at people who disagree with you, you're not really in a position to complain about things like this. It completely devalues the arguments you might or might not have. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

On 5 Jun., 20:11, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > >Obviously someone listens. And yes, I am sorry if I seem to be > >somewhat stupid, but I´m tired of always getting the same kind of > >replies on any critizism versus WW from Peter B. > > You don't. Peter quite often admits that a whole bunch of cards are > crappy. (I think he tends to use the word "janky".) While I have to admit that Peter is on the whole reasonable and civil, he is using a seemingly apologist-like style of discussion in almost anything related with WW. "Yeah, I agree, X is not great, but it's not end of the world..." "Yeah, Y might suck, but it doesn't really matter..." "Z seems to be not so great, but that's not big deal..." The more you read stuff like that, the more you get the notion that a person is defending "sucky" things for a reason. On the other hand, it might be a not-native-language-thing and I'm missing a certain point here. However, I remember quite clearly some art-discussion (Chatterton!) here on usenet going, as well as threads about WW doing things allegedly badly, seemingly wall-paperish cards, allegedly missed opportunities for reprints, etc. All I'm saying is, people *might* get an impression of Peter having stakes with WW... ;)

Amenophobis <preac...@gmx.at> wrote: >On 5 Jun., 20:11, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >> Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >Obviously someone listens. And yes, I am sorry if I seem to be >> >somewhat stupid, but I´m tired of always getting the same kind of >> >replies on any critizism versus WW from Peter B. >> >> You don't. Peter quite often admits that a whole bunch of cards are >> crappy. (I think he tends to use the word "janky".) > >While I have to admit that Peter is on the whole reasonable and civil, >he is using a seemingly apologist-like style of discussion in almost >anything related with WW. > >"Yeah, I agree, X is not great, but it's not end of the world..." >"Yeah, Y might suck, but it doesn't really matter..." >"Z seems to be not so great, but that's not big deal..." > >The more you read stuff like that, the more you get the notion that a >person is defending "sucky" things for a reason. Apply Occam's Razor. Which is more likely: - WW secretly pay Peter to post to newsgroups when a discussion comes up every few months about how some cards are crap. They don't pay a web designer to keep the website up to date. They don't pay a marketer to drip feed interesting tit-bits to the press and to fans. They don't pay a programmer to keep the tournament rankings up to date. No, the real secret to V:TES's success is that someone has to post to the newsgroup once every few months and say "Hey, I don't think those cards are as bad as you make out" so they totally pay him to do that. - Peter thinks some cards are usable, and doesn't think it's the end of the world if a few cards are crappy. Take your pick. Option A can be filed alongside believing that Elvis didn't die and that Christopher Marlowe faked his own death so he could write Shakespeare's plays. Honestly, some people just don't think it's the end of the world if some cards aren't as good as Govern the Unaligned. People play the game for different reasons, people enjoy playing different sorts of decks, people enjoy different sorts of challenges. Some people take a different view of game design - I'm perfectly happy to see some conservative additions to the game that become better later. (Example: some of the Anarchs set is pap, but better with Twilight Rebellion.) Hurling abuse and questioning people's motives because - heaven forfend - someone doesn't share your priorities about how V:TES must be designed is... unhelpful. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I have no idea what to name these cards, but here are some ideas: Nagaraja Meat Locker Unique Location Nagaraja Burn Option Whenever a minion controlled by another Methuselah loses any amount of blood or life, put 1 blood counter on this card. If a mortal is burned, put 2 counters on this card. Once each action, you may burn a counter from this card to give an acting Nagaraja +1 stealth or +1 bleed. During your discard phase, burn 1 counter from this card for every Nagaraja you control. Foodie Master Nagaraja Put this card on a Nagaraja and choose a clan. Once per action when a vampire of the chosen clan gains blood or when a mortal gains life, this Nagaraja gains 1 blood. A vampire may have only one Foodie. Caterer 2 pool Nagaraja Wraith Ally 3 Life, 0 Strength, 1 Bleed. The Caterer may move one blood or life from any minion or retainer to a ready untapped Nagaraja as a 2s (D) action. Just some ideas. :) Jeff

On 6 Jun., 15:53, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] All you say is profound and valid. I wouldn't say otherwise. However, Peter's style makes me sometimes wonder if he has a strong urge to defend (almost) everything said/done by WW that would be debateable. I yet have to see a post where Peter wholeheartedly concurs with criticism about WW. I know that most of that criticism is unfounded, but once in a while some are substantial. If I remember correctly, Peter's take on the matters seems always the same ("yeah... but... "). Rock on Peter. :)

On Jun 6, 6:17 am, Amenophobis <preache...@gmx.at> wrote: > While I have to admit that Peter is on the whole reasonable and civil, > he is using a seemingly apologist-like style of discussion in almost > anything related with WW. How is this becoming a discussion about whether or not I am a "WW Apologist" or not? It's kind of baffling. This discussion started with Ashur complaining about something, me (sadly knowing full well how it would end up) pointing out that at least 2 of the 3 cards he was complaining about were playable and actually not bad, in a completely civil and rational manner. And Ashur comes back in immediately throwing punches. And here we are. > "Yeah, I agree, X is not great, but it's not end of the world..." > "Yeah, Y might suck, but it doesn't really matter..." > "Z seems to be not so great, but that's not big deal..." How is any of that at all an unreasonable viewpoint? Yes. Sometimes things suck. Sometimes things have bad art. Sometimes cards are bad. And yet, still, overall, the game works and is a good product. I doubt that anyone who is remotely invested in the game would disagree with that. This past expansion? Had some bad cards and some bad art (of which Chatterson was certainly not the worst...). But bad cards, which there are in every set? They just get ignored and not played and who cares? The occasional bit of bad art? If it is bad art on a good card, people complain about the bad art and play the good card, and everyone moves on. If it is bad art on a bad card, again, it just gets ignored and occasionally mocked. > The more you read stuff like that, the more you get the notion that a > person is defending "sucky" things for a reason. On the other hand, it > might be a not-native-language-thing and I'm missing a certain point > here. Who the fuck cares why I am defending things? Really? If you want to imagine that I am secretly a shill for the company ('cause, ya know, White Wolf certainly has the money for that sort of activity...), and it helps you sleep at night, go nuts. I'm not, but apparently, that isn't really relevant. > However, I remember quite clearly some art-discussion (Chatterton!) > here on usenet going, as well as threads about WW doing things > allegedly badly, seemingly wall-paperish cards, allegedly missed > opportunities for reprints, etc. Yes. Clearly you are my fan. Woo! But sadly, you aren't enough of a super fan of my work to remember some of my greatest hits like "The game really needs to do something to make combat a viable strategy!", "Anarch Revolt is completely broken and needs fixing!" and "Protect Thine Own is completely broken and needs fixing!" and "Banishment is completely broken and needs fixing!" and "the rules for Contestation kind of make the game suck and should get changed!" etc. See, I'm concerned about things that make the game not work well. And put effort into getting them fixed. And not concerned with stupid crap like 4 or 5 cards having silly artwork and a couple clan cards being possibly under the power curve. And find that when people get all tweaked about something stupid like 4 or 5 cards having silly art and decrying that is "The End Of The Game!", it is usually, at the very least, entertaining to argue with them about it. > All I'm saying is, people *might* get an impression of Peter having > stakes with WW... ;) We *all* have stakes with WW. If the company goes under, so does the game. Which, presumably, we all like. In the name of full disclosure, I'll point out that: A) White Wolf once paid me $21 and change for an article I wrote for the Players Guide update supplement. B) I have, in the past, playtested for this game in an official capacity. If that makes me a shill for WW with stakes in the company, so be it. -Peter

On 6 kesä, 18:03, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > Who the fuck cares why I am defending things? Really? If you want to > imagine that I am secretly a shill for the company ('cause, ya know, > White Wolf certainly has the money for that sort of activity...), and > it helps you sleep at night, go nuts. I'm not, but apparently, that > isn't really relevant. Settle down. Amenophobis made a humorous observation (which, frankly, isn't completely unfounded) and followed the add-a-smiley-so-Peter- doesn't-take-it-seriously protocol correctly. Nobody has to go nuts over this. :)

Jeff Kuta <jeff...@gmail.com> wrote: >Foodie >Master >Nagaraja >Put this card on a Nagaraja and choose a clan. Once per action when a >vampire of the chosen clan gains blood or when a mortal gains life, >this Nagaraja gains 1 blood. A vampire may have only one Foodie. I quite like this, but perhaps the other way round. Nagaraja are well-known for their superlative control of wraiths, through use of the Path of the Sepulchre and the Path of Vitreous. So, for example: Bobby (Wraith) Unique wraith retainer, 2 life Requires Nagaraja Once per turn, after a successful action performed by this Nagaraja, you may add a blood to another vampire you control. Perhaps "No more than one Bobby per vampire" rather than unique, although that won't necessarily matter. An alternative option might be something like: Spectral Augmentation +1 stealth action, 1 blood Requires Nagaraja Search your library, hand, and/or ash heap for a wraith retainer. Move that retainer to this Nagaraja (paying the cost as normal for employment, but ignoring requirements (if any)). Put this card on that retainer. Once per turn, after a successful action performed by this Nagajara, you may add a blood to another vampire you control. A Nagaraja can have only one Spectral Augmentation on all of its retainers. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Jun 3, 11:38 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > Any suggestions? Is it because Le Dinh Tho and Sennadurek are so > awesome? > > This far we have: > > Consume the Dead [LoB:R] > Cardtype: Action/Reaction > Clan: Nagaraja > Burn Option > [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or > burn a wraith retainer. > [REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by > any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped > Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This > Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood, > where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer. > > Emergency Rations [LoB:R] > Cardtype: Action > Clan: Nagaraja > +1 stealth action. > Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from > the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap > phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full > capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one > Emergency Rations. > > Ritual Scalpel [HttB:R] > Cardtype: Equipment > Clan: Nagaraja > Burn Option > Unique equipment. > If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional > blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal > (ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action. > > None of these cards are playable in any decent decks. Compared with > the cards for Trujahs and Salubri they are shit. Well, to start, players have yet to support (play) Nag much. So, the designers do not focus on them. That said, they have given us three good cards, as yet no one has chosen to exploit them. Ritual Scalpel is in every way better then Aaron Feeding Razor, but nothing is to stop one from having both. Senerderik could hunt for 5 a turn, likely good enough to bring out the rest of your crypt. Do not forget that it can hit mortal retainers as well. Consume the Dead, while useless as an action is very good as a reaction. How often do "minions" burn in a game? I see it in most games. Let us assume you are playing Shambling Hordes. Your horde blocks and burns. CtD will give you the blood to pay for another one. Granted it will not be able to be used for the next horde, but if you didn't have the blood the point is moot. On top of that, it HOSES turbo decks. And can be used to preserve counters on FBI Special Affairs Division. Emergency Rations is one of the few cards that will fill up a vampire. Even though, it does not have flexibility of Giants Blood or Renewed Vigor. It can be played with only one minion in play and need not be used until you deem it necessary. It has a MAY in its burn clause. Dam shame procurer isn't a mortal, guess there is always Neighborhood Watch Commander. Matt

On 6 Juni, 15:53, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > Honestly, some people just don't think it's the end of the world if some > cards aren't as good as Govern the Unaligned. Has anyone stated that it´s the end of the world if some cards aren´t as good as Govern the Unaligned? No. So why do you bring this up? I think the clan cards for Nagaraja suck, and I asked if someone has an idea why. Some people said it´s because of game balance, but I haven´t seen any really good arguments for that. > I'm perfectly happy to see some conservative additions > to the game that become better later. (Example: some of the Anarchs set > is pap, but better with Twilight Rebellion.) Nagaraja came into the game 2001. Now, nine years later, they still don ´t have a decent clan card. > Hurling abuse and questioning people's motives because - heaven forfend > - someone doesn't share your priorities about how V:TES must be designed > is... unhelpful. Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think that is very interesting considering what he is writing on this newgroup. "Unhelpful" for you or not.

On Jun 6, 12:08 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Check this out: Billy (Wraith) Wraith Ally Nagaraja 1 pool 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed. Billy may not act or block. If Billy is untapped and a vampire you control successfully completes an action (after combat if any), tap Billy and move 1 blood from that vampire to any ready Nagaraja. Control of Billy passes to your predator at the end of your turn. Spectre (Wraith) Nagaraja Wraith Retainer Put the Spectre on any minion controlled by your prey as a (D) action. When this retainer's employer plays an action card, you may see its replacement. A minion may have only one Spectre. Hour of Death 1 stealth Action 1 blood aus/nec: Look at the hand of your predator or prey. Remove one of the revealed cards from the game. AUS/NEC: Look at the hand of any Methuselah who controls a Wraith. Remove one of the revealed cards from the game and this vampire untaps. Soul Judgment 1 stealth Action aus/dom/nec: Untap this vampire and take control of a ready Wraith ally. AUS/DOM/NEC: Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +2 bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith ally or Wraith retainer. How about them apples? ;) Jeff

On Jun 6, 9:52 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think that is > very interesting considering what he is writing on this newgroup. > "Unhelpful" for you or not. Dude, put the glass pipe down, step away, crack is wack, m'kay? Peter got paid, once, years ago, for writing an addition to the players handbook. That to you means he is on their payroll? Seriously, you need to come back from whatever planet you are currently orbiting, Earth is pretty cool.

On Jun 6, 9:56 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > Check this out: > > Billy (Wraith) > Wraith Ally > Nagaraja > 1 pool > 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed. > Billy may not act or block. If Billy is untapped and a vampire you > control successfully completes an action (after combat if any), tap > Billy and move 1 blood from that vampire to any ready Nagaraja. > Control of Billy passes to your predator at the end of your turn. Maybe make this clause: "Control of Billy passes counterclockwise to the next Methuselah controlling a Nagaraja at the end of your turn." > > Spectre (Wraith) > Nagaraja > Wraith Retainer > Put the Spectre on any minion controlled by your prey as a (D) action. > When this retainer's employer plays an action card, you may see its > replacement. A minion may have only one Spectre. > > Hour of Death > 1 stealth Action > 1 blood > aus/nec: Look at the hand of your predator or prey. Remove one of the > revealed cards from the game. > AUS/NEC: Look at the hand of any Methuselah who controls a Wraith. > Remove one of the revealed cards from the game and this vampire > untaps. > > Soul Judgment > 1 stealth Action > aus/dom/nec: Untap this vampire and take control of a ready Wraith > ally. > AUS/DOM/NEC: Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +2 > bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith ally or Wraith > retainer. > > How about them apples? ;) > > Jeff yummy!

On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 12:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Ashur <ashur.a...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hurling abuse and questioning people's motives because - heaven forfend >> - someone doesn't share your priorities about how V:TES must be designed >> is... unhelpful. > >Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think that is >very interesting considering what he is writing on this newgroup. >"Unhelpful" for you or not. Unless I missed a post somewhere, all he "confessed" was that he once wrote an article for them and had acted as a playtester. And really, the idea that White Wolf pays a guy to viral market their game on a Newsgroup with maybe 40 regular Posters by posting such tried and true marketing slogans as "It`s not that bad" or "Yeah, it sucks but it isn`t the end of the world" seems phenominally retarded.

On Jun 6, 12:00 pm, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: > Settle down. Amenophobis made a humorous observation (which, frankly, > isn't completely unfounded) and followed the add-a-smiley-so-Peter- > doesn't-take-it-seriously protocol correctly. Nobody has to go nuts > over this. :) I assure you, there is nothing over here that needs settling. If I seemed ranty, it is 'cause Amenophobis (who seems like an otherwise completely reasonable guy) has previously accused me of being a White Wolf shill, and is yet again doing the same thing, even after I previously pointed out that, in fact, no, I don't work for White Wolf and I'm not secretly defending White Wolf as some sort of incredibly obtuse marketing campaign. -Peter

On Jun 6, 3:52 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think that is > very interesting considering what he is writing on this newgroup. > "Unhelpful" for you or not. Are you freaking kidding me? At no point did I "confess" that I am on the White Wolf payroll. When I wrote: "Yes. Yes I am. They pay me tons and tons of money." I was, as noted in a later message (where I pointed out that you were clearly incapable of understanding sarcasm) being sarcastic. There was no smiley, as they was nothing jokey about it. It was straight forward, totally clear sarcasm, which you apparently chose to take as fact. Even though I pointed out in various other locations that I don't, in fact, work for white wolf. No. I am not on White Wolf's payroll. I don't work for White Wolf. I have never worked for White Wolf in any capacity other than writing a single freelance article for the Player's Guide PDF update (go team Abomination!) some number of years ago that I got paid 21 bucks for. Just like an awful lot of people who play this game and post on this here newsgroup. And I have, in the past, playtested sets in production. This makes me "on WWs payroll"? -Peter

Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> wrote: >On Jun 6, 9:56 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Check this out: >> >> Billy (Wraith) >> Wraith Ally >> Nagaraja >> 1 pool >> 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed. >> Billy may not act or block. If Billy is untapped and a vampire you >> control successfully completes an action (after combat if any), tap >> Billy and move 1 blood from that vampire to any ready Nagaraja. >> Control of Billy passes to your predator at the end of your turn. >Maybe make this clause: "Control of Billy passes counterclockwise to >the next Methuselah controlling a Nagaraja at the end of your turn." It's actually potentially much more fun this way. If the movement is mandatory, then when it passes to the other Methuselahs they have to give a blood from their vampires back to you (the Nagaraja player). I play it, control goes to you. You act with Arika, who is successful. You tap Billy and have to give a blood from Arika to a Nagaraja - which is likely to be my vampire. (Yeah, there could be fun if two people play Nagaraja.) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Jun 6, 10:58 am, Amenophobis <preache...@gmx.at> wrote: > All you say is profound and valid. I wouldn't say otherwise. > However, Peter's style makes me sometimes wonder if he has a strong > urge to defend (almost) everything said/done by WW that would be > debateable. And yet the last time we had this same discussion I said "No, I don't work for White Wolf. Really." Apparently that didn't stick? I'm sure there are some public records you can look through if you really want and see if I am on their payroll in any actual capacity if you want. Hurrah for freedom of information! > I yet have to see a post where Peter wholeheartedly concurs with > criticism about WW. Like what? Like when I was like "Huh, these cards are broken. They need to get fixed. A lot." a hundred different times? PTO? Succubus Club? Anarch Revolt? Banishment? Oh, wait. That was clearly me being on WW's payroll. And in 1997, when LSJ presented us all with the new rulings, and I was like "Yeah, X, Y, and Z? These are insane!". Oh, wait. At that point, VTES wasn't owned by WW yet. So I guess that doesn't count, 'cause me being on the WW payroll wasn't really an option yet. > I know that most of that criticism is unfounded, > but once in a while some are substantial. If I remember correctly, > Peter's take on the matters seems always the same ("yeah... but... "). And I'll point out that the times you have taken note of this was around the Gary Chatterton issue (which, again, is an issue of "who the hell cares of 10 reprints in a set of 2000+ cards have harmlessly schlocky art?"), something about what cards got reprinted in starters (where I probably explained that there was probably a reason that Parity Shift didn't get reprinted as opposed to it just being capricious or random) and, uh, this one? Where me pointing out that 2 of the 3 Nagaraja clan cards are playable is some sort of deep level stealth marketing tactic? > Rock on Peter. :) I do what I can, man. I do what I can. -Peter

Ashur wrote: > Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think > that is very interesting considering what he is writing on this > newgroup. "Unhelpful" for you or not. Ok, Ashur is officially a troll. Everyone, please stop talking to him. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please bid on my auctions! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html

On Jun 6, 3:40 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Yes! That was the intent at least. I wanted to make something like the Informant which helped give Nagaraja blood instead of card information. I don't know a lot about their "theme" but it seemed this was kinda close to theirs. Billy is supposed to be Unique as well. It's also kind of a little like Millicent Smith since there's a disincentive to act. Plus, I wanted a Wraith to be on the table, and wandering around, so the other Wraith affecting cards of Necromancy and the Nagaraja could be used against opposing Methuselahs. Jeff

On Jun 6, 5:09 pm, Pascal <Pasca...@nospam.com> wrote: > On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 12:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Ashur > [ quoted text not captured ] funny how it never goes both ways. I propose that all players who criticize new VTES expansion cards' artwork or functionality, and/or being critical towards White Wolf and their policies, are secretly viral marketers being paid by Konami to demoralize VTES players and convert them to playing Yu-Gi-Oh! Don't listen to Ondore's lies!

On Jun 3, 7:53 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > Because the Nagaraja don't have any new disciplines *and* they are > scarce, there is zero incentive to build Nagaraja focused decks like > there are Salubri or Trujah focused decks. Agreed. But the scarce rule is still dumb and serves no useful purpose. John Eno

Kushiel wrote: > Peter D Bakija wrote: >> Because the Nagaraja don't have any new disciplines *and* they are >> scarce, there is zero incentive to build Nagaraja focused decks like >> there are Salubri or Trujah focused decks. > > Agreed. But the scarce rule is still dumb and serves no useful > purpose. It serves as an RPG-crossover, as do many things in VTES. Whether those are useful or not is up the individual... ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

Kevin M. wrote: > Ashur wrote: >> Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think >> that is very interesting considering what he is writing on this >> newgroup. "Unhelpful" for you or not. > > Ok, Ashur is officially a troll. > > Everyone, please stop talking to him. > > Yes, agreed. Please. A full 75% of the posts in this topic are about Ashur and Peter, not enough about why Nagaraja Clan cards suck. Because they do. 3 Nagaraja Clan Cards (Consume the Dead, Emergency Rations, and Ritual Scalpel). Their texts are up thread somewhere. The thing is, none of them are compelling enough to inspire someone to build a deck around them, unless they are really into janky strategies and masochism; and their playgroup accepts experimental decks. I'm going to go through every clan's cards and list one card that is better (Either more versatile, more inspiring to build a deck around, or just more useful to any of the basic strategies that lead to VP and GW) than any of the Naga cards. Consume the Dead and Emergency Rations are too cornercase and have low opportunity thresholds; while Ritual Scalpel is a glorified Aaron's feeding razor, so could be used in bloat strategies I guess. But not very inspiring. Abomination: Doh! They have no clan cards, so Nagaraja win this one. Ahrimane: Blessing of the Beast Akunanse: Wise Spider Assamite: Alamut (and many others) Baali: Call the Great Beast Blood Brother: Oppugnant Night (Blood Brothers also only have 3 clan cards, and 2 of them are better than all 3 Naga cards(I mean Thicker than Blood)) Brujah: New Carthage !Brujah: Waste Mgmt Operation Daugther of Cacophony: Paris Opera House Follower of Set: Corruption Gangrel: Ecoterrorists !Gangrel: Bay and Howl, Leathery Hide Gargoyle: Rock Cat Giovanni: Sudario Refraction Guruhi: Guruhi are the Land (versatility) Harbinber of Skulls: Slaughterhouse Ishtarri: Ok, Informant is ok, as is Uncontrolled Impulse, but I might give Ritual Scalpel the nod over either of these. Nah, Naga cards still don't match up. Kiasyd: Chanjelin Ward, seriously. Lasombra: Political Struggle Malkavian: Madness Network !Malkavian: Cracking the wall (jk!) really: Enchanted Marionette Nosferatu: Warsaw Station !Nosferatu:Nosferatu Kingdom Osebo: 419 Operation Pander: Legacy of Pander Ravnos: Week of Nightmares Salubri: Sight Beyond Sight !Salubri: Blessing of the Name Samedi: Little Mountain Cemetary Toreador: Aching Beauty !Toreador: Art Scam Tremere: Ankara Citadel !Tremere: Nephandus True Brujah: Vaticination (+3stealth!) Again a clan with only 3 clan cards, of which I would argue all 3 are better than any of the 3 Nag cards. Tzimisce: War Ghoul Ventrue: Island of Yiaros, Hostile Takeover !Ventrue: Demonstration Give us something for Nagaraja that meets Ankara, or Madness Netowrk, or Sudario Refractino. That would be nice. best - chris

On 6 Cze, 21:56, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 6, 12:08 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > > Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >Foodie > > >Master > > >Nagaraja > > >Put this card on a Nagaraja and choose a clan. Once per action when a > > >vampire of the chosen clan gains blood or when a mortal gains life, > > >this Nagaraja gains 1 blood. A vampire may have only one Foodie. > > > I quite like this, but perhaps the other way round. Not bad, but how often it will pay off ? Could be tasty with Mercy of Seth loop. > > Nagaraja are well-known for their superlative control of wraiths, > > through use of the Path of the Sepulchre and the Path of Vitreous. So, > > for example: > > > Bobby (Wraith) > > Unique wraith retainer, 2 life > > Requires Nagaraja > > Once per turn, after a successful action performed by this Nagaraja, > > you may add a blood to another vampire you control. > > > Perhaps "No more than one Bobby per vampire" rather than unique, > > although that won't necessarily matter. > > > An alternative option might be something like: Unique Wraith that cost 0 blood. Could work with that necromancy-burn- wraith-to-get-5-blood. Other than that, it would be 4th blood gaining tech for nagaraja (i'd say better than ritual scalpel, as you may do something other than hunt to gain blood). > > Spectral Augmentation > > +1 stealth action, 1 blood > > Requires Nagaraja > > Search your library, hand, and/or ash heap for a wraith retainer. > > Move that retainer to this Nagaraja (paying the cost as normal for > > employment, but ignoring requirements (if any)). Put this card on > > that retainer. Once per turn, after a successful action performed by > > this Nagajara, you may add a blood to another vampire you control. A > > Nagaraja can have only one Spectral Augmentation on all of its > > retainers. There are few wraith retainers out there. And none is good for its price used with card in question (masquer is too costly, protector outright sucks, charigger is waste on nagaraja). > Check this out: > > Billy (Wraith) > Wraith Ally > Nagaraja > 1 pool > 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed. > Billy may not act or block. If Billy is untapped and a vampire you > control successfully completes an action (after combat if any), tap > Billy and move 1 blood from that vampire to any ready Nagaraja. > Control of Billy passes to your predator at the end of your turn. Good. Have some minor wording issues. > Spectre (Wraith) > Nagaraja > Wraith Retainer > Put the Spectre on any minion controlled by your prey as a (D) action. > When this retainer's employer plays an action card, you may see its > replacement. A minion may have only one Spectre. Effect is not worth the effort imo. > Hour of Death > 1 stealth Action > 1 blood > aus/nec: Look at the hand of your predator or prey. Remove one of the > revealed cards from the game. > AUS/NEC: Look at the hand of any Methuselah who controls a Wraith. > Remove one of the revealed cards from the game and this vampire > untaps. Twist on revelation. Combo well with wraiths above. Unless people will play more wraiths (or there will be decent tech for the card), it's wallpaper (i don't think that Nagaraja will get more than 1 card in next bloodline set) > Soul Judgment > 1 stealth Action > aus/dom/nec: Untap this vampire and take control of a ready Wraith > ally. > AUS/DOM/NEC: Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +2 > bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith ally or Wraith > retainer. > > How about them apples? ;) > > Jeff As i said above, i don't think that Nagaraja will get more than 1 card, so there will be no combo. About Nagaraja cards: Emergency Rations Action Nagaraja +1 stealth action. Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one Emergency Rations. Many people play Carlton, Mr. Winthrop, Tasha, Simmons. Vagabond and Youngbloods are not scarce either. Nobody is stopping you to play some of them (Carlton and Winthrop seems like the best choices, Youngbloods are not bad in horde deck. With liquidations you are likely to move some of them into your ash heap. If not, possibly other player will do it). Best nagaraja vampires tend to be small, Amu/Sennadurek/Le Dinh/ Veejay. Yavu is not good enough. So in best case it's 7 blood gained. Not bad, especially for Amu who REALLY need the blood. Consume the Dead Action Reaction Nagaraja +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or burn a wraith retainer. Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood, where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer. Action is cornercase, until AUS/DOM/NEC get some decent combat cards (or when there will be some good wraiths to warrant breath of thanatos inclusion). Reaction would be good in Horde deck IF there would be some way to give Shamblers some additional intercept (IF there would be some auspex or auspex/necromancy or auspex/dominate that give intercept to other vampires). Right now it have too big opportunity cost, but it's likely to change in the future. Ritual Scalpel Equipment Nagaraja Unique equipment. If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal (ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action. Would be good, but no Nagaraja have good way to multiact ... other than Sennadurek in 11 cap seraph's deck (she have AUS dom and good special, he want sargon to get necromancy anyway)(not best deck, just an idea).

On Jun 6, 11:24 pm, Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 6 Cze, 21:56, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 6, 12:08 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > > > Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >Foodie > > > >Master > > > >Nagaraja > > > >Put this card on a Nagaraja and choose a clan. Once per action when a > > > >vampire of the chosen clan gains blood or when a mortal gains life, > > > >this Nagaraja gains 1 blood. A vampire may have only one Foodie. > > > > I quite like this, but perhaps the other way round. > > Not bad, but how often it will pay off ? Could be tasty with Mercy of > Seth loop. I intended it to pay off every time. It's almost like a personal hunting ground. Perhaps it needs a 1 pool cost. Mainly though, you would choose the primary clan of your prey or predator. Then the effect would likely disappear. Could perhaps put a "Burn this card if there are no vampires of the chosen clan in play" clause so it could be reused or a new one could be played. [ quoted text not captured ] Which is why a clan specific Wraith for Nagaraja is kinda cool. > > Check this out: > > > Billy (Wraith) > > Wraith Ally > > Nagaraja > > 1 pool > > 2 life, 1 strength, 0 bleed. > > Billy may not act or block. If Billy is untapped and a vampire you > > control successfully completes an action (after combat if any), tap > > Billy and move 1 blood from that vampire to any ready Nagaraja. > > Control of Billy passes to your predator at the end of your turn. > > Good. Have some minor wording issues. > > > Spectre (Wraith) > > Nagaraja > > Wraith Retainer > > Put the Spectre on any minion controlled by your prey as a (D) action. > > When this retainer's employer plays an action card, you may see its > > replacement. A minion may have only one Spectre. > > Effect is not worth the effort imo. I had also thought about making it "Nagaraja get +1 bleed when bleeding this minion's controller" instead. See below. > > Hour of Death > > 1 stealth Action > > 1 blood > > aus/nec: Look at the hand of your predator or prey. Remove one of the > > revealed cards from the game. > > AUS/NEC: Look at the hand of any Methuselah who controls a Wraith. > > Remove one of the revealed cards from the game and this vampire > > untaps. > > Twist on revelation. Combo well with wraiths above. Unless people will > play more wraiths (or there will be decent tech for the card), it's > wallpaper (i don't think that Nagaraja will get more than 1 card in > next bloodline set) It's discipline based! Harbingers can also benefit from this card so it'd be a candidate for inclusion in a set separate from clan cards. Was also supposed to be "every Methuselah who controls a Wraith." That way it can combo even better with all the Spectres scattered about the table. > > Soul Judgment > > 1 stealth Action > > aus/dom/nec: Untap this vampire and take control of a ready Wraith > > ally. > > AUS/DOM/NEC: Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +2 > > bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith ally or Wraith > > retainer. > > > How about them apples? ;) > > > Jeff > > As i said above, i don't think that Nagaraja will get more than 1 > card, so there will be no combo. Then the Nagaraja clan card better be a wraith! :) The only reason I made it Aus/Dom/Nec is to get around the Clan restriction since this card is from the Path of Vitreous. If it were Aus/Nec or Dom/Nec, then it'd be too widely useful. Make the AUS/DOM/NEC version instead: Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +1 bleed and an additional +1 bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith. Always useful, with a bonus vs Wraiths. [ quoted text not captured ] Again, my only complaint about the first two is that there's a pre- existing game state that must be met for the cards to be played, aka corner case. The Scalpel is all fine and dandy, but it seems more of a metagame choice than something you'd really want to play with all the time. If you're using Nagaraja, OUST with them. Jeff

On 7 Juni, 00:48, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 6, 3:52 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think that is > > very interesting considering what he is writing on this newgroup. > > "Unhelpful" for you or not. > > Are you freaking kidding me? At no point did I "confess" that I am on > the White Wolf payroll. When I wrote: > > "Yes. Yes I am. They pay me tons and tons of money." Yes, and you have many times noted that I "don´t understand sarcasm" and yet you continue using it in posts aimed at me. Why? It might also be that me stating you as being on WWs payroll also being some kind of sarcasm, but never mind. I don´t have time for your sarcasms. Put some effort in your arguments on the topic instead. I started a thread about Nagaraja clan cards being bad, and I will continue to argue that giving them better clan cards would wreck game balance.

On 7 Juni, 01:32, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Ashur wrote: > > Peter B has confessed that he is on WWs payroll, and I think > > that is very interesting considering what he is writing on this > > newgroup. "Unhelpful" for you or not. > > Ok, Ashur is officially a troll. > > Everyone, please stop talking to him. Very nice comment. Thanks a lot. Feel free to ignore me, my sarcasms and Peter B´s sarcasms, and just reply about your thought on the topic (Why doesn´t Nagaraja get any good clan cards?).

[ quoted text not captured ] I don´t understand what you are talking about. Is it not interested why a person every single time I write something negative about WW, argues that WW is almost flawless? OK, maybe it isn´t, so I get back to the subject: I understand that it is hard to make wellbalanced cards for this game, but the clan cards for Nagaraja is just a bit to bad to be playable. Sure, you can play any card and get use of it once in a blue moon, but I think that is boring. What do you think?

Raziel <angel...@gmail.com> wrote: >There are few wraith retainers out there. And none is good for its >price used with card in question (masquer is too costly, protector >outright sucks, charigger is waste on nagaraja). Up to a point, I think that's okay. It just means we also ask for more useful wraiths to be printed too! [ quoted text not captured ]

Jeff Kuta <jeff...@gmail.com> wrote: >The only reason I made it Aus/Dom/Nec is to get around the Clan >restriction since this card is from the Path of Vitreous. If it were >Aus/Nec or Dom/Nec, then it'd be too widely useful. > >Make the AUS/DOM/NEC version instead: >Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gets +1 bleed and an >additional +1 bleed against any Methuselah who controls a Wraith. >Always useful, with a bonus vs Wraiths. An alternative option is to go the Aire of Elation route. [aus nec] This card does something useful but a bit bland. If this vampire is a Nagaraja, it gets +1 fun! [AUS NEC] As [aus nec], but better. And funner! [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Peter, I have never *seriously* accused you of anything. Just for the record. I'm not thinking that you are on WWs payroll, nevermind. (To be fair: I also have written articles for the WW Players Guide.) But it seems you are missing *my* point: your style and discussion- techniques can leave the *impression* that you are a bit more closely related to WW than the average player. It's how you go about defending stuff that isn't really worth defending - like the 3 Nagaraja clan cards, which are extremely underpowered to see ever play in at least a half-serious deck. Or is this just a posture of yours? ;) Back to the topic: I'm of the opinion that WW making it "not too bad" is not good enough. There is always room for improvement, and clearly underpowered cards are really not necessary. Take a look at some of the HttB cards (Din of the Damned, Treat the Sick Mind, Olid Loa, The Ailing Spirit, Hay Ride, Masca, e.g.). They are underpowered by varying degrees. The 3 Nagaraja clan cards *are* sucky, while Ritual Scalpel is the best of those 3. And the Nagaraja are taken for their specials, not their disciplines. The rest of the deck is then build around the given disciplines - no wonder mostly Giovanni show up along the Nagaraja. Le Dinh Tho is clearly the best of the bunch. Kanimana seems nice, but wasting an action for the +1 handsize is not really worth it.

On Jun 7, 4:40 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes, and you have many times noted that I "don´t understand sarcasm" > and yet you continue using it in posts aimed at me. Why? 'Cause really, as much as you come across like a beligerent loon, I suspect you are actually a reasonably intellegent person. And even with English not being your first language, you should be able to suss out that when I say things like "Yes. Yes I am. They pay me tons of money" in the context of: A) A snarky slap fight of an argument, and B) Me saying "No, I don't work for White Wolf" in multiple other places in the discussion. I'm just being a wise ass. > It might also > be that me stating you as being on WWs payroll also being some kind of > sarcasm, but never mind. Sure. It might be. But probably not. As there isn't really a level on which that works, in the context of your statements, as sarcasm. 'Cause when you continue to defend your argument based on my clearly insincere comment, such a possibility kind of falls apart. > I don´t have time for your sarcasms. Put some > effort in your arguments on the topic instead. I started a thread > about Nagaraja clan cards being bad, Yes, you did. And my first response was about nothing but Nagaraja clan cards, and how they were (at least a couple of them) completely playable if not the best cards in the world. And was totally civil and discussing exactly what you seemed to be intending to discuss. And you very first reply? Full of belligerence and accusations that I was secretly a company shill. For someone who has no time for sarcasm and/ or is only interested in actually discussing the topic at hand, that seems like a really bad way to go about that. > and I will continue to argue that > giving them better clan cards would wreck game balance. I assume you mean "not wreck game balance". And I suspect you are right. I'm sure they could give the Nagaraja better clan cards without wrecking the balance of the game. And it would be nice if they did. But the ones they already have, again, aren't horrible, and at least 2 of the 3 are playable and effective in decks that are already good. -Peter

On Jun 7, 4:52 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > I don´t understand what you are talking about. Is it not interested > why a person every single time I write something negative about WW, > argues that WW is almost flawless? Was that going on here? Nope. You said "These 3 cards suck! Waaa!" and I said in response "I dunno, at least 2 of them are actually pretty good". You read this as "WW is almost flawless!" You seem to be confusing: A) Me thinking that your regular beligerent whiny complaint is entertaining to poke holes in. with B) Me being secretly a company shill, embarking on some sort of really deep level stealth marketing campaign. For a company that is willing to pay, at most, one full time employee (who is not me). See, if you could maintain an argument that was actually just about the game and the game mechanics without instinctively flying off the handle and degenerating into an abusive attack on anyone who decides to engage you, you might actually get somewhere, argument wise. -Peter

On Jun 7, 5:49 am, Amenophobis <preache...@gmx.at> wrote: > Peter, I have never *seriously* accused you of anything. Just for the > record. > I'm not thinking that you are on WWs payroll, nevermind. (To be fair: > I also have written articles for the WW Players Guide.) Fair enough. Let's move on! > But it seems you are missing *my* point: your style and discussion- > techniques can leave the *impression* that you are a bit more closely > related to WW than the average player. It's how you go about defending > stuff that isn't really worth defending - like the 3 Nagaraja clan > cards, which are extremely underpowered to see ever play in at least a > half-serious deck. > Or is this just a posture of yours? ;) Nah. As noted, as this game goes, I object to things that make the game not work well--things that are too powerful, things that push the game play into one particular strategy or play style or another. These things strike me as important and worth discussing and arguing about and taking a stance on. Which I do all the time. I find the stupid arguments, like about how 10 cards in a set of 2000+ cards have harmlessly schlocky art or how the Nagraja have waek clan cards, just that. Kind of stupid. So I will argue with them on the side of "That is stupid. Who the hell cares?". And in cases where something happens that makes people cranky (like not reprinting Parity Shift) and people get all irrationally cranky about it, I argue with them on the grounds of "Yeah, it is a pain that X didn't get reprinted, but there is probably a rational reason for it, so stop bellyaching about it." In this instance, we got Ashur, who has a long history of showing up, complaining about things sucking and then tossing abuse at anyone who disagrees with him, showing up and complining about things sucking. I, knowing full well where this will go, decided to attempt to engage him on a completely civil and on topic level. Which goes badly. But ya know, what are you gonna do? In any case, are the 3 Nagaraja clan cards the best cards in the world or anything? Not at all. But I stand by the claim that Consume the Dead is very playable in limited numbers in the right decks--you have the Nagaraja. They have NEC. You probably have Shambling Hordes and you probably have The Unmaskening. Your Shambling Hordes are probably blocking stuff, and probably getting killed once and a while when they do so. Check. Having a Consume the Dead or two in there to refil your Nagaraja in play, even while tapped, is a completely reasonable thing to consider. I have done so. And it worked great. Saved Le Dinh Tho from embarassingly having to hunt at 0 stealth at least once. Ritual Scalpel is a totally playable, free piece of equipment, that has a solid mundane use (+1 blood when hunting) *and* a good backup use (kill allies) if it comes up. Put it on Anu Dippitydo. Have her hunt with it as a Perfectionist. That is generating +3 bleed for the rest of your minions per turn. Not at all horrible. Yes. Emergency Rations is kind of super corner case and unlikely to see much play (primarily due to the need for it to target a mortal ally). And as a result, is kind of extra lame. > Back to the topic: > I'm of the opinion that WW making it "not too bad" is not good enough. > There is always room for improvement, and clearly underpowered cards > are really not necessary. Take a look at some of the HttB cards (Din > of the Damned, Treat the Sick Mind, Olid Loa, The Ailing Spirit, Hay > Ride, Masca, e.g.). They are underpowered by varying degrees. Sure. Not every card can be Govern the Unaligned. All sets have a good chunk of cards that are either: A) Limited in scope. or B) Just kind of weak. That happens. This is a CCG, where lots of people play for lots of different reasons. Yes. Some people only like playing with the best, most super competitive strategies at all times. Which is fine, and every set has *something* for that kind of play. Some people like experimenting with crazy stuff and trying to find ways to make, like, Olid Loa (which blows) into a solid card. And the game works fine for both kinds of players. Yes. Some cards suck. But some cards *always* suck. In all CCGs. All the time. Designers often err on the side of caution (for good reason), and this will sometimes result in cards being just bad. And sometimes a card seems like a good idea on paper, but in practice, not so much. And sometimes something seems like it sucks in practice, and eventually someone figures out something really good to do with it in the long run. That is how CCGs work. -Peter

On Jun 7, 12:16 am, Kushiel <invisibleking...@gmail.com> wrote: > Agreed. But the scarce rule is still dumb and serves no useful > purpose. Ya think? I think the purpose of the scarcity rule is to disincentiveize using multiples of a given clan in the same deck. Which it does pretty well--whenever I am building a deck with a scarce clan, I rarely put two different members of that clan in the crypt, specifically 'cause of the scarcity rule. And when I do put multiples in, I know full well that I might either screw myself or just not get out the second guy. I mean, I certainly can see why someone might think scarcity is stupid if you really want to make an all Abomination crypt or something. But presumably, when making the Bloodlines set, they wanted to make the scarce clans scarce. Which works out if that was their intention. (Hey! White Wolf! I want my two dollars!) -Peter

On Jun 7, 7:18 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 7, 4:52 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I don´t understand what you are talking about. Is it not interested > > why a person every single time I write something negative about WW, > > argues that WW is almost flawless? > > Was that going on here? Nope. You said "These 3 cards suck! Waaa!" and > I said in response "I dunno, at least 2 of them are actually pretty > good". You read this as "WW is almost flawless!" > > You seem to be confusing: > > A) Me thinking that your regular beligerent whiny complaint is > entertaining to poke holes in. > > with > > B) Me being secretly a company shill, embarking on some sort of really > deep level stealth marketing campaign. For a company that is willing > to pay, at most, one full time employee (who is not me). To summarize the positions Ashur- "You are just a meat-puppet dancing on the strings of an invisible corporate entity whose goal is nothing more than the subversion of the VTES newsgroup to their imperceptible motives and care not one wit for the games health which I justify by calling you names because you refuse to support my paranoid delusions of self- grandeur" Peter- "That's cute, but this is a game."

On Jun 6, 12:46 pm, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 3, 11:38 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Any suggestions? Is it because Le Dinh Tho and Sennadurek are so > > awesome? > > > This far we have: > > > Consume the Dead [LoB:R] > > Cardtype: Action/Reaction > > Clan: Nagaraja > > Burn Option > > [ACTION] +1 stealth action. (D) Enter combat with a wraith ally or > > burn a wraith retainer. > > [REACTION] Only usable when a minion or retainer is being burned by > > any means except diablerie. Usable during combat. Usable by a tapped > > Nagaraja. Remove that minion or retainer from the game instead. This > > Nagaraja gains 1 blood if the minion was a vampire or gains X+1 blood, > > where X is the blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer. > > > Emergency Rations [LoB:R] > > Cardtype: Action > > Clan: Nagaraja > > +1 stealth action. > > Remove a mortal (ally or retainer) in any Methuselah's ash heap from > > the game to put this card on the acting Nagaraja. During your untap > > phase you may burn this card to restore this ready Nagaraja to full > > capacity with blood from the blood bank. A vampire may have only one > > Emergency Rations. > > > Ritual Scalpel [HttB:R] > > Cardtype: Equipment > > Clan: Nagaraja > > Burn Option > > Unique equipment. > > If this Nagaraja successfully hunts, he or she gains 1 additional > > blood. This Nagaraja may inflict 1 unpreventable damage on a mortal > > (ally or retainer) to gain 2 blood as a (D) action. > > > None of these cards are playable in any decent decks. Compared with > > the cards for Trujahs and Salubri they are shit. > > Well, to start, players have yet to support (play) Nag much. So, the > designers do not focus on them. That said, they have given us three > good cards, as yet no one has chosen to exploit them. > > Ritual Scalpel is in every way better then Aaron Feeding Razor, but > nothing is to stop one from having both. > Senerderik could hunt for 5 a turn, likely good enough to bring out > the rest of your crypt. Do not forget that it can hit mortal > retainers as well. > > Consume the Dead, while useless as an action is very good as a > reaction. How often do "minions" burn in a game? I see it in most > games. Let us assume you are playing Shambling Hordes. Your horde > blocks and burns. CtD will give you the blood to pay for another one. > Granted it will not be able to be used for the next horde, but if you > didn't have the blood the point is moot. On top of that, it HOSES > turbo decks. And can be used to preserve counters on FBI Special > Affairs Division. > > Emergency Rations is one of the few cards that will fill up a > vampire. Even though, it does not have flexibility of Giants Blood or > Renewed Vigor. It can be played with only one minion in play and need > not be used until you deem it necessary. It has a MAY in its burn > clause. Dam shame procurer isn't a mortal, guess there is always > Neighborhood Watch Commander. > > Matt Erergency Rations is no more difficult than shambling hordes to pull off, in fact easier, because you can target any ash heap for a mortal ally OR retainer.

On Jun 7, 8:50 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > Ya think? I think the purpose of the scarcity rule is to > disincentiveize using multiples of a given clan in the same deck. > Which it does pretty well--whenever I am building a deck with a scarce > clan, I rarely put two different members of that clan in the crypt, > specifically 'cause of the scarcity rule. And when I do put multiples > in, I know full well that I might either screw myself or just not get > out the second guy. Yeah. That's what it does. Discouraging deckbuilding variety in a deckbuilding game, when that variety is of the non-broken kind, isn't really a good basis for a rule. > I mean, I certainly can see why someone might think scarcity is stupid > if you really want to make an all Abomination crypt or something. But > presumably, when making the Bloodlines set, they wanted to make the > scarce clans scarce. Which works out if that was their intention. Which intention would have also been fulfilled without the scarce rule, because you could only put three guys from that clan in your deck anyway. That's the gist of my beef - why bother with a cornercase rule that can occasionally screw someone for playing Clan X, when there's already a perfectly good way to keep people doing what you want them to do when they're building decks? John Eno

On Jun 7, 12:58 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > It serves as an RPG-crossover, as do many things in VTES. That purpose was already served by printing only three members of each of the scarce clans. They were already scarce in-game; adding a rule that arbitrarily punishes someone else for wanting to play the same clan you're playing, as well as reducing those vampires to one-trick ponies when no other vampires are, is dumb. John Eno

On Jun 7, 11:57 am, Kushiel <invisibleking...@gmail.com> wrote: > Yeah. That's what it does. Discouraging deckbuilding variety in a > deckbuilding game, when that variety is of the non-broken kind, isn't > really a good basis for a rule. I certainly see where you are coming from. But presumably, when designing the first BL set all those many years ago, someone said "Huh. These Salubri (or whatever) are really rare and almost never hang out together. 'Cause there are only 3 in the world. How about we make a rule that makes it so you really only ever want to have 1 in play at a time?", and thus, you get the scarce rule. Was it the best possible way to do that? Probably not, especially now that the Bloodlines have grown far out of proportion to what they were probably originally envisioned as. But as a design plan, I see why they went that way. > Which intention would have also been fulfilled without the scarce > rule, because you could only put three guys from that clan in your > deck anyway. Sure, but if the "game world" theory was "you only ever see one Salubri at a time" (or whatever) 'cause they are that rare, putting 3 in play isn't something that fits the background. So they could have just said "Scarce: You may only have 1 vampire of this clan in play at a time.", which would have been more restrictive than the current rule. > That's the gist of my beef - why bother with a cornercase > rule that can occasionally screw someone for playing Clan X, when > there's already a perfectly good way to keep people doing what you > want them to do when they're building decks? Yeah, the random screwology of it is a drag occasionally in that "I had to pay 14 for Saulot 'cause someone randomly got out Mr. Noir on the other side of the table" kind of way. But still less of a drag than contestation. There probably could have been a better way to have made the rule that only affected the way you built your deck, but I suspect that the designers didn't necessarily envision either lots more of each clan being made or the grouping rule at that point. -Peter

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 7, 11:57 am, Kushiel <invisibleking...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Yeah. That's what it does. Discouraging deckbuilding variety in a > > deckbuilding game, when that variety is of the non-broken kind, isn't > > really a good basis for a rule. > I certainly see where you are coming from. But presumably, when > designing the first BL set all those many years ago, someone said > "Huh. These Salubri (or whatever) are really rare and almost never > hang out together. 'Cause there are only 3 in the world. How about we > make a rule that makes it so you really only ever want to have 1 in > play at a time?", and thus, you get the scarce rule. Was it the best > possible way to do that? Probably not, especially now that the > Bloodlines have grown far out of proportion to what they were probably > originally envisioned as. But as a design plan, I see why they went > that way. And, when designed, the Scarce rule was originally "they contest with each other", so you know it could have been a lot worse.

[ quoted text not captured ] "Suspect"? This coming from someone who was on the WW payroll in the past!??!!! WHAT ARE YOU HIDING FROM US MISTER BAKIJA!!!!??? :) You know, Scarce is a trait. It's a mechanic of the game. If it's becoming a problem, we can always try to lobby to make it changed. Perhaps WW would consider lowering the Scarce penalty to 2 pool instead of the current 3. Or maybe make it 2X where X is the number of Scarce vampires in play so the first one is cheap, but it gets progressively more expensive. But I don't think it's a problem really. I would like to see more ways for the Trujah to all hang out together, but the problem is that means the Salubri, which are already very powerful, would get stronger too. So, that's why we need better clan cards for the scarce clan which isn't terribly powerful right now. :) Jeff

On 7 Jun., 18:20, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] You mean, originally, before playtest round 1 of BL?

[ quoted text not captured ] No, I mean *during* playtest round 1 of BL. NDA on that is long since expired...

> (stupid keyboard) > > ...or a minion being burnt (doesn't happen all the time) and you need > the card in hand when the event occurs. then why don't you maximize the odds to see vampire/minion burn when you build the deck ? any combo with milicent smith, society of leopold, scourge of the enochians or recall to the founder can make those nagaraja cards really shine... But you'll have to use your deckbuilding skills for this ! And by a strange ocurrence, that's what the bloodlines are made for. Isn't life beautiful ? :)

On 4 juin, 16:10, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 4, 8:18 am, RoddPrime <roddpr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >Nagaraja are decent as a singular vamp supporting a different crypt. > > As that was the intention for scarce bloodlines vamps, they are doing > just fine then. > > -Peter Totally agree with you, (it's about time ;) ) and i'm surprised Ashur didn't mention there are no Abomination clan cards either :P

[ quoted text not captured ] HOLY SHIT ASHUR! YOU ARE SLEEPING ON THE JOB!

On Jun 7, 12:20 pm, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > And, when designed, the Scarce rule was originally "they contest with > each other", so you know it could have been a lot worse. True. But (total stupidity < stupidity) =/= (not stupid) John Eno droppin' algebra bombs

On 7 Jun., 18:58, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I know. Strange though, we must have had different playtest materials. In our version the scarce rule was quite the way it is now, IIRC.

[ quoted text not captured ] It is my belief that Ashur saw the Anu, A.I., Daemonic Possession combo and went fishing to see if others had. Everything after was just Obfuscation. I have been wrong before. Matt

On Jun 7, 12:12 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > I certainly see where you are coming from. But presumably, when > designing the first BL set all those many years ago, someone said > "Huh. These Salubri (or whatever) are really rare and almost never > hang out together. 'Cause there are only 3 in the world. How about we > make a rule that makes it so you really only ever want to have 1 in > play at a time?", and thus, you get the scarce rule. Right. I get that they did it out of an attempt to maintain fidelity to the RPG. But in so doing, they eliminated an interesting menu of choices ("How many of these Nagaraja do I want in the deck? How many can I get away with having in the crypt and still use their clan cards? Who, if anyone, should I use to support them?") and replaced it with no choice other than 1) play no more than one of them per deck, or 2) make a deck which attempts to complete the victory condition of I Can Get a Lot of Scarce Guys Into Play rather than the victory condition everyone is playing towards. At some point, fidelity to an outside source needs to be eschewed in favor of good gameplay. The scarce rule, in this case, was that point, particularly given that the backstory scarcity of these vampires is also enforced elsewise (by only printing three of them for each clan). > Was it the best > possible way to do that? Probably not, especially now that the > Bloodlines have grown far out of proportion to what they were probably > originally envisioned as. But as a design plan, I see why they went > that way. Me too. I wish they hadn't, though. And it'd be so easy to fix, even now. > Sure, but if the "game world" theory was "you only ever see one > Salubri at a time" (or whatever) 'cause they are that rare, putting 3 > in play isn't something that fits the background. So they could have > just said "Scarce: You may only have 1 vampire of this clan in play at > a time.", which would have been more restrictive than the current > rule. In theory, you're right. In practice, the scarce rule already effectively reads "You may only have one vampire of this clan in play at a time." > Yeah, the random screwology of it is a drag occasionally in that "I > had to pay 14 for Saulot 'cause someone randomly got out Mr. Noir on > the other side of the table" kind of way. It's worth noting that the scarce rule is really weird in that it almost never affects gameplay, but has a very deleterious effect during deckbuilding. (Well, assuming you care about the clans it screws with.) Since deckbuilding is the one part of the game in which there's zero randomness involved, it strikes me as extra strange to eliminate interesting choice in favor of foregone conclusion in that part of the game. > But still less of a drag > than contestation. There probably could have been a better way to have > made the rule that only affected the way you built your deck, but I > suspect that the designers didn't necessarily envision either lots > more of each clan being made or the grouping rule at that point. All true. But I am entirely confident that the scarce rule could be dropped from the game entirely at this point, with no negative effects and some positive effects. Hell, two of the scarce clans just got guys who've got more scarceness built into them, if someone was worried that having four of the same scarce clan in play was somehow going to irrevocably destroy the canon backstory. John Eno

On Jun 7, 12:22 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > You know, Scarce is a trait. It's a mechanic of the game. If it's > becoming a problem, we can always try to lobby to make it changed. It could just be dropped. > But I don't think it's a problem really. It's not a problem so much as an annoyance, as I noted in my response to Peter. It limits deckbuilding choices, with no corresponding gameplay or backstory reason to do so. > I would like to see more ways > for the Trujah to all hang out together, but the problem is that means > the Salubri, which are already very powerful, would get stronger too. Seriously? Even if you could play four Salubri at a time, I don't see how they would even be as good as one of the Big-Boy-Pants clans like Ventrue or Lasombra, let alone better than them. Have you had bad experiences on the receiving end of a Marionette deck lately or something? :) John Eno

[ quoted text not captured ] So your suggestion would be to change the scarce rules to something like: Scarce: When a Methuselah moves a scarce vampire from her uncontrolled region to her ready region during her influence phase, she must burn 3 pool for every other vampire of the same clan she already controls. Or something like that? best - chris

On 7 Juni, 14:18, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 7, 4:52 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I don´t understand what you are talking about. Is it not interested > > why a person every single time I write something negative about WW, > > argues that WW is almost flawless? > > Was that going on here? Nope. You said "These 3 cards suck! Waaa!" and > I said in response "I dunno, at least 2 of them are actually pretty > good". You read this as "WW is almost flawless!" Why do you use citation marks on things I´ve never stated? And no, those cards are not "pretty good". That is because they cannot be used with any solid effect in any serious play enviroment and that is why they don´t show up in any TWDs and that is why they can be bought for 1 dollar or less each at ebay. > You seem to be confusing: > > A) Me thinking that your regular beligerent whiny complaint is > entertaining to poke holes in. So why don´t you do so instead of going on bragging on how you work for WW? > with > > B) Me being secretly a company shill, embarking on some sort of really > deep level stealth marketing campaign. For a company that is willing > to pay, at most, one full time employee (who is not me). Well, what do I know. I´ve read about viral marketing. Stranger things have happened.

[ quoted text not captured ] Oh, quotation marks again. No interested in the topic, just putting words in other peoples mouths? And no, that is not my position. My position is that the Nagaraja clan cards suck and that WW might think about getting them some better ones. (My position about Peter B is that he is wrong and kind of strange.)

On 7 Juni, 19:02, "Reyda !" <rey...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 4 juin, 16:10, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 4, 8:18 am, RoddPrime <roddpr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >Nagaraja are decent as a singular vamp supporting a different crypt. > > > As that was the intention for scarce bloodlines vamps, they are doing > > just fine then. > > > -Peter > > Totally agree with you, (it's about time ;) ) and i'm surprised Ashur > didn't mention there are no Abomination clan cards either :P But there is no Abomination clan cards, right? So I don´t have to draw one when I buy a booster pack, so it is not such a big deal. But now when I come to think of it, the Abominations are underpowered, and has only 4 vamps. I don´t know why, maybe someone knows? Lorrie is very angry though.

On 7 Juni, 19:39, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > On Jun 7, 12:02 pm, "Reyda !" <rey...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 4 juin, 16:10, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 4, 8:18 am, RoddPrime <roddpr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >Nagaraja are decent as a singular vamp supporting a different crypt. > > > > As that was the intention for scarce bloodlines vamps, they are doing > > > just fine then. > > > > -Peter > > > Totally agree with you, (it's about time ;) ) and i'm surprised Ashur > > didn't mention there are no Abomination clan cards either :P > > HOLY SHIT ASHUR! YOU ARE SLEEPING ON THE JOB! What "job"? And why the caps? Are you upset?

On Jun 7, 1:26 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 7 Juni, 17:19, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 7, 7:18 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 7, 4:52 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > I don´t understand what you are talking about. Is it not interested > > > > why a person every single time I write something negative about WW, > > > > argues that WW is almost flawless? > > > > Was that going on here? Nope. You said "These 3 cards suck! Waaa!" and > > > I said in response "I dunno, at least 2 of them are actually pretty > > > good". You read this as "WW is almost flawless!" > > > > You seem to be confusing: > > > > A) Me thinking that your regular beligerent whiny complaint is > > > entertaining to poke holes in. > > > > with > > > > B) Me being secretly a company shill, embarking on some sort of really > > > deep level stealth marketing campaign. For a company that is willing > > > to pay, at most, one full time employee (who is not me). > > > To summarize the positions > > > Ashur- "You are just a meat-puppet dancing on the strings of an > > invisible corporate entity whose goal is nothing more than the > > subversion of the VTES newsgroup to their imperceptible motives and > > care not one wit for the games health which I justify by calling you > > names because you refuse to support my paranoid delusions of self- > > grandeur" > > > Peter- "That's cute, but this is a game." > > Oh, quotation marks again. No interested in the topic, just putting > words in other peoples mouths? > > And no, that is not my position. My position is that the Nagaraja clan > cards suck and that WW might think about getting them some better > ones. (My position about Peter B is that he is wrong and kind of > strange.) Your position was derailed long ago. Mono-Nagaraja is the bomb. Try it out

Kushiel <invisibl...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 7, 12:20 pm, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > > And, when designed, the Scarce rule was originally "they contest with > > each other", so you know it could have been a lot worse. > True. But > (total stupidity < stupidity) =/= (not stupid) My opinion: If the Scarce Rule went away, and Scarce was relegated to a rules-less keyword (mentioned in a handful of cards already, and that wouldn't need to change, except for making no sense on Path of Tears), I don't know if I'd notice one way or the other.

[ quoted text not captured ] Mightily Upset and Requiring Therapy M.U.R.T for short

On Jun 7, 2:19 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > Why do you use citation marks on things I´ve never stated? It is a short cut for paraphrasing what you said. > And no, those cards are not "pretty good". That is because they cannot > be used with any solid effect in any serious play enviroment and that > is why they don´t show up in any TWDs and that is why they can be > bought for 1 dollar or less each at ebay. And yet, still, Consume the Dead is a completely reasonable card in a Nagaraja backed Shambling Hordes deck. And the Ritual Scalpel is a completely effective piece of free equipment that has a good general effect and a good secondary effect. That you claim that they can't be used to any solid effect in any serious play environment is only supported up by you saying that. Circular arguments don't go real far. > So why don´t you do so instead of going on bragging on how you work > for WW? What the hell are you even talking about here? > Well, what do I know. That is a very good question. -Peter

On Jun 7, 2:15 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > So your suggestion would be to change the scarce rules to something like: > > Scarce: When a Methuselah moves a scarce vampire from her uncontrolled > region to her ready region during her influence phase, she must burn 3 pool > for every other vampire of the same clan she already controls. > > Or something like that? Nope. My suggestion is to remove the scarce rule entirely. Path of Tears and Mistrust can go hang out with Smoke Grenade in the Wallpapered But Never Played Anyway Lounge. John Eno

Kushiel <invisibl...@gmail.com> wrote: > Nope. My suggestion is to remove the scarce rule entirely. Path of > Tears and Mistrust can go hang out with Smoke Grenade in the > Wallpapered But Never Played Anyway Lounge. Actually, if the Scarce Rule went away, but the Scarce Keyword stuck around, then Mistrust would get a slight *boost* in power, since more Scarce vampires would start showing up.

On Jun 7, 7:07 am, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Ahrimane: Blessing of the Beast Blessing of the Beast? Really? It's like a sucky version of Storage Annex. Kevin Walsh

On Jun 7, 10:55 am, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 7, 10:47 am, Kushiel <invisibleking...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 7, 12:20 pm, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > > > > And, when designed, the Scarce rule was originally "they contest with > > > each other", so you know it could have been a lot worse. > > > True. But > > > (total stupidity < stupidity) =/= (not stupid) > > > John Eno > > droppin' algebra bombs > > It is my belief that Ashur saw the Anu, A.I., Daemonic Possession > combo and went fishing to see if others had. > Everything after was just Obfuscation. I have been wrong before. > > Matt On Feb 26, 1:51 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > wedge wrote: > > I would say that, if you do not scout you are breaking play to win. > Play To Win only applies when a game is being played, not after > a game is over, when you are chatting with other players, getting > some food, taking a dump in the restroom, etc. I guess I have to say I was half kidding. That there is a PTW rule is silly. I play ever game to win. In a Tourney I will look at the remaining games, too see what people are playing. If one of those games looks tense, I may stay to watch it play out, over scouting the rest of the room. I love a well contested game of vtes. It is good to see what people bring to the table, no matter of standing just the meta. Which I believe will be shifting soon. NO, I will not say. Come to L.A. in May. You will see, if you don't already. Matt To bad I didn't make good my promise a play it, but nobody but Darby came out. I was hoping it would stay under the radar, Oh well.

On Jun 7, 1:55 pm, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote: > It is my belief that Ashur saw the Anu, A.I., Daemonic Possession > combo and went fishing to see if others had. > Everything after was just Obfuscation. I kinda doubt it. He's said that he's not interested in playing anything other than the best decks, which means he's not likely to experiment to see what the new best decks are going to look like. John Eno

Amenophobis wrote: > But it seems you are missing *my* point: your style and discussion- > techniques can leave the *impression* that you are a bit more closely > related to WW than the average player. It really doesn't, in any way, give that impression, no. That's just a silly fantasy, based on nothing more than pure speculation. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please bid on my auctions! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html

Peter D Bakija wrote: > In this instance, we got Ashur, who has a long history of showing > up, complaining about things sucking and then tossing abuse at > anyone who disagrees with him, showing up and complining about > things sucking. I, knowing full well where this will go, decided > to attempt to engage him on a completely civil and on topic level. > Which goes badly. But ya know, what are you gonna do? Not act like an idiot and reply to him when you know the result? /hint [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Really???? That's what you get from this card??? Master. Put this card on an Ahrimane with any number of cards that require Spiritus [spi] from your hand (face down). You may look at these cards at any time. This Ahrimane may play these cards as if from your hand. Burn this card when it has no more of these cards on it. A vampire may have only one Blessing of the Beast. I have now seen this played a number of times in my local playgroup. Every singe time the guy plays it on Howler, we all know we are in deep shit. Reason being, giving Howler 2-4 Muricia's calls, and some SPI wakes? Totally, totally strong. And best if when it burns, you can play it again....

On Jun 7, 2:55 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > And yet, still, Consume the Dead is a completely reasonable card in a > Nagaraja backed Shambling Hordes deck. And the Ritual Scalpel is a > completely effective piece of free equipment that has a good general > effect and a good secondary effect. > > -Peter super ultra corner-case use for Consume the Dead: stop a turbo deck completely in its tracks! you remove the vampire from the game instead of burning it, therefore soul gem doesn't activate. at least I think it works that way... I believe Emergency Rations deserves more credit than you give it, since you can build your deck to take advantage of it. throw in some extra copies of Tasha/Simmons/Winthrop to discard and become Nagaraja snacks. or maybe extras of Leonardo the Mortician, if you're also using Giovanni. and I guess when the game gets really cornercase, use that Ritual Scalpel to ping someone else's Winthrop into the ash heap.

[ quoted text not captured ] Still, that's 3 actions (play scalpel, burn mortal, play ratios). 3 Turns. Slow. I toyed with card ideas for nagaraja (that are linked with my secret storyline plan, but whatever) that would make other cards for nagaraja useful. Gajrup, Driven Cabbie Action Retainer Nagaraja Burn Option Unique Mortal Wraith with 2 life. During your untap phase, Gajrup burns 1 life if he didn't lost 1 life last untap phase. Gajdrup does not untap as normal. During your untap phase any Nagaraja may burn 1 blood to untap Gajdrup. You may tap Gajrup to untap a Nagaraja. It's similar to homonculus, but it allow multi acting in turn it's employed (or work as wake). It's wraith, so the Nagaraja in question can use Shroud Mastery to untap after successful employ action, and use breath of thanatos to get stealth. It's mortal, so you can use it as Emergency Ratios fodder (not to mention that more actions = more likely to have spare time). It burns in untap phase (sure, you gain only one blood, but you can cycle card). It allows more action (so more blood from scalpel). Sure, it's similar to two freak drives (technically 3 untaps for 2 blood, but you have to tap to employ it. So it's more like two untaps, if none kill your vamp/this retainer earlier), and require action and can be burned. I think it's good card design. I have also idea for another driven (possessed by wraiths), that can help Nagaraja clan. I'll post them somewhere probably.

On 7 Juni, 21:55, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 7, 2:19 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Why do you use citation marks on things I´ve never stated? > > It is a short cut for paraphrasing what you said. No, it´s a way to win argumentations for people who don´t have any good arguments. > > And no, those cards are not "pretty good". That is because they cannot > > be used with any solid effect in any serious play enviroment and that > > is why they don´t show up in any TWDs and that is why they can be > > bought for 1 dollar or less each at ebay. > > And yet, still, Consume the Dead is a completely reasonable card in a > Nagaraja backed Shambling Hordes deck. And the Ritual Scalpel is a > completely effective piece of free equipment that has a good general > effect and a good secondary effect. > > That you claim that they can't be used to any solid effect in any > serious play environment is only supported up by you saying that. > Circular arguments don't go real far. You are the one using petitio principii here, it is you. You say that the Nagaraja clan cards do not suck, because they are completely resonable/completely effective. I say the Nagaraja clan cards (as well as way too many other cards WW put out, see earlier topics) suck because they are bad. I base this on a.) they don´t ever turn up in any TWDs, and b.) they can be bought for less than 1 dollar (ie, low demand). I can add to this c.) that I have never seen them being played - and I play about 200 games every year, in multiple enviroments. Also, on the constructive critism account: It´s not very difficult making cards like these a bit more playable. Just add a secondary effect that is not so cornercase as the main effect. > > So why don´t you do so instead of going on bragging on how you work > > for WW? > > What the hell are you even talking about here? See a bunch of your replies on this thread. Some later stated as "sarcasms", some not.

Kushiel <invisibl...@gmail.com> wrote: >Right. I get that they did it out of an attempt to maintain fidelity >to the RPG. But in so doing, they eliminated an interesting menu of >choices Well, sort of. I'm jumping in here, but also as a more general response to your "scrap scarce" posts. In the more general sense, I think "scarce" added an interesting menu of choices - for the designers. I would imagine (with reasonable certainty) that the designs of Obeah and Temporis would be pretty different if LSJ new that people could easily get three vampires out with each. Particularly easy with group 2 Salubri, who are mid-priced. I think that knowing that only one vampire would come out in a lot of games, and that a reasonably hefty price would be extracted for 2, and that 3 is right out, gives interesting scope for designs. As a designer, you know that the vampire becomes a target for any sort of minion control or hassle (Pentex, Banishment, Mind Rape, Fame, just rushing the bastard). Quite different to a bunch of vampires coming out with Spiritis, or a bunch of vampires coming out with Thaumaturgy. I think both disciplines would probably be somewhat more... conservative in their design in Bloodlines, if Scarce wasn't there. From my point of view, they have some of the better fallback options on their cards (not all, by any means) - Spirit Marionette is good bleed, Domain of Evernight is good stealth. I think Speak with Spirits and Strength of the Bear are both somewhat weaker at fallback, due to costs/restrictions. I think Obeah and Temporis would be more like that. I think it's arguable that Scarce doesn't significantly add to the Abominations (who are barely usable together - and in some cases, barely usable) - and I think that's an argument you could win, really. And you could make a similar argument for the Nagaraja because they don't have a unique discipline. However, I don't think that scarce itself was entirely worthless. I'm sure it didn't all work out as LSJ thought it might, and later developments have been because of that, but that's different. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

[ quoted text not captured ] I'm getting a bit annoyed here. Although I do understand the intention of this thread, your last post makes my eyes hurt. So let me get something straight here. If, in some future tournament, I play an Edward Vignes deck, and manage to win the tournament, and I have put one Consume the Dead and one Ritual Scalpel in the deck (totally useless, but nevertheless), which make them appear on my deck list, and thus in the TWDA, it would make them suck less? Or if I decide to place a bid of, say, $ 35 for a Consume the Dead or a Ritual Scalpel, which proves that they can be bought for insane high amounts of cash, it would make them suck less? Or if I decide to put one Nagaraja and one copy of both Consume the Dead and Ritual Scalpel in every deck I play from now on, which makes it so that I will see them being played (in over 200 games in multiple environments), it would make them suck less? I get that you think the Nagaraja cards suck. But I also see viable arguments being offered for the cards to be used. Which makes them suck less, in my opinion. That seems to be something that you don't want to see. It's just that I am not so sure about your standards for cards to 'suck'. And also, a statement like "So why don´t you do so instead of going on bragging on how you work for WW?" against Peter doesn't just make you look like an ass; it makes you an ass all the way. Please grow up, mmkay? And no, I don't know Peter in real life, I just think that your accusations are the most ridiculous ones I have ever seen here in this newsgroup.

On Jun 8, 3:26 am, Raziel <angelofc...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 8 Cze, 09:40, Haze <headlessr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > and I guess when the game gets really cornercase, use that Ritual > > Scalpel to ping someone else's Winthrop into the ash heap. > > Still, that's 3 actions (play scalpel, burn mortal, play ratios). 3 > Turns. Slow. It was an obvious joke, as I said it's a really cornercase scenario. It's still an option. On the other hand, it may not be all that slow, at least from the way I'm seeing this clan. Two of the most powerful Nagaraja, Anu Diptinatpa and Sennadurek, are better as support vampires than superstars. 1. Sennadurek is an excellent blocker/bouncer thanks to her untap ability. She can afford to spend actions tooling up or doing "table chores", knowing she'll very likely get untapped on other player's turns. Multiple times. Even having her hunt isn't that bad, if it means she can play one more Deflection. 2. Anu's main role is to boost bleeds left and right. This works even while she's tapped, so she might as well spend all her actions gaining more blood to keep the bleed engine running. Coincidentally, all 3 Nagaraja clan cards are designed for gaining lots of blood, woo. Hunting with perfectionist and ritual scalpel for 3 blood = gaining +3 bleed. Of course, it's always great to have them bleed for lots and oust your prey, if the opportunity comes up. But these Nagaraja offer an alternative approach, since they can keep up your offense without bleeding at all. You still don't want to spend 2 actions to be able to use Emergency Rations, since it's so much easier to just play the Barrens and discard a mortal from your hand. But if you really had to have Anu scalpel an annoying mortal, you could do it, and gain 2 blood in the process. That's another +2 bleed there.

On Jun 8, 3:40 am, Haze <headlessr...@gmail.com> wrote: > super ultra corner-case use for Consume the Dead: stop a turbo deck > completely in its tracks! you remove the vampire from the game instead > of burning it, therefore soul gem doesn't activate. at least I think > it works that way... Yeah, I'm pretty sure it does. That Consume the Dead works when you are tapped is what makes it good--you put a couple in your deck (that already has allies in it anyway), and your tapped Nagaraja can fill up once or twice a game. And possibly foil some goofy other strategies or shenanagins as you go. It's totally a worthwhile card in limited numbers in the appropriate deck. It isn't going in every deck, no. But certainly worth playing. > I believe Emergency Rations deserves more credit than you give it, > since you can build your deck to take advantage of it. Oh, sure--but in general, it is a lot harder to use than Consume the Dead (it takes set up conditions *and* an action). You certainly can build your deck to take advantage of it, but the extra mortal allies just to discard probably aren't helping out *that* much, as opposed to just having more good cards in your deck. I've used this one too, and generally found it kind of lacking. I mean, certainly better than, like, Eyes of the Dead or something, but not much :-) -Peter

On Jun 8, 5:23 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > No, it´s a way to win argumentations for people who don´t have any > good arguments. Uh, yeah. You did, in fact, start this thread with "These 3 cards suck" and go from there. Which is a paraphrase. > You are the one using petitio principii here, it is you. You say that > the Nagaraja clan cards do not suck, because they are completely > resonable/completely effective. And pointing out specific instances and examples of where and how they are effective. Use Consume the Dead for when your blocking Hordes are killed so your tapped Nagaraja can gain 4 blood. Use Ritual Scalpel to make Anu gain lots of blood quickly so she can pay for her powerful special ability over and over again (and occasionally kill allies if it comes up too). > I say the Nagaraja clan cards (as well as way too many other cards WW > put out, see earlier topics) suck because they are bad. I base this > on > a.) they don´t ever turn up in any TWDs, and > b.) they can be bought for less than 1 dollar (ie, low demand). > I can add to this c.) that I have never seen them being played - and I > play about 200 games every year, in multiple enviroments. You are way too hung up on the TWDA. I'm familiar with the TWDA. I have lots of decks in the TWDA. I don't hang what is or is not effective in a general sense on the TWDA. Not every card is going to be Govern the Unaligned. Some cards are good and will see play while not tearing up the tournament scene. That *you* don't see these cards as remotely effective does not mean that, in a general sense, that they can't be effective. > Also, on the constructive critism account: It´s not very difficult > making cards like these a bit more playable. Just add a secondary > effect that is not so cornercase as the main effect. Sure! Just like Ritual Scalpel... > See a bunch of your replies on this thread. Some later stated as > "sarcasms", some not. Uh, you see "refutation of the ravings of a madman" as "bragging", huh. Are you brain damaged? -Peter

On 8 Juni, 12:30, Mark <markangel1...@gmail.com> wrote: > > If, in some future tournament, I play an Edward Vignes deck, and > manage to win the tournament, and I have put one Consume the Dead and > one Ritual Scalpel in the deck (totally useless, but nevertheless), > which make them appear on my deck list, and thus in the TWDA, it would > make them suck less? No. Single occurances like that would make me think you are a good player, or one with much luck, and that the rest of the deck was really solid. A friend of mine won some swedish championship in MTG with 4 basic islands in the deck because he lost the actual cards which was on the decklist. That say more about the strenght of his deck concept and his ability to play, than the strenght of those 4 basic islands. Ie, Vignes is a very strong deck type which can be won with even with 2 Nagaraja clan cards. > Or if I decide to place a bid of, say, $ 35 for a Consume the Dead or > a Ritual Scalpel, which proves that they can be bought for insane high > amounts of cash, it would make them suck less? No. I refered to the average price, not some freak occurance. > Or if I decide to put one Nagaraja and one copy of both Consume the > Dead and Ritual Scalpel in every deck I play from now on, which makes > it so that I will see them being played (in over 200 games in multiple > environments), it would make them suck less? No. I was talking about the cards turning up in other peoples decks, over a period of 9 years. Are you even trying to understand me? > I get that you think the Nagaraja cards suck. But I also see viable > arguments being offered for the cards to be used. Which makes them > suck less, in my opinion. That seems to be something that you don't > want to see. It's just that I am not so sure about your standards for > cards to 'suck'. How do you judge them as "viable"? Cards suck if no one or very few feels them worthy of playing with. And generally an experienced player can notice which cards suck just by reading the card text. > And also, a statement like "So why don´t you do so instead of going on > bragging on how you work for WW?" against Peter doesn't just make you > look like an ass; it makes you an ass all the way. Please grow up, > mmkay? Does making comments like this make you feel better? Big, strong? Congratulations in that case, for I feel kind of hurt. I thought Peter B worked for WW (or at least had some strong personal connections to WW) and you, and several others, think that makes it ok to call me "ass", "douchebag", "troll" etc? Think that is "netiquette"? :)

On Jun 8, 8:10 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > Does making comments like this make you feel better? Big, strong? > Congratulations in that case, for I feel kind of hurt. I thought Peter > B worked for WW (or at least had some strong personal connections to > WW) and you, and several others, think that makes it ok to call me > "ass", "douchebag", "troll" etc? Think that is "netiquette"? :) I called you a douche bag as, well, you were acting like a douche bag. I opened this back and forth dialogue with a completely civil, on topic discussion where I was not being remotely rude or even particularly snarky, and you came back immediately throwing punches. I responded in kind, and your next response was a beligerent diatribe. So rather than continuing to deal with that, I pointed out that you were a huge douche bag and called it a day. I just asked if you are brain damaged as, well, I'm beginning to think that you are. -Peter

On 8 Juni, 14:06, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 8, 5:23 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > No, it´s a way to win argumentations for people who don´t have any > > good arguments. > > Uh, yeah. You did, in fact, start this thread with "These 3 cards > suck" and go from there. Which is a paraphrase. No. I started with implying that Nagaraja never gets any good clan cards, and that those they have are not playable in any decent decks, and that they are shit compared with the cards for Trujahs and Salubri. When you paraphrase, why not do it more correctly? > > You are the one using petitio principii here, it is you. You say that > > the Nagaraja clan cards do not suck, because they are completely > > resonable/completely effective. > > And pointing out specific instances and examples of where and how they > are effective. Use Consume the Dead for when your blocking Hordes are > killed so your tapped Nagaraja can gain 4 blood. Use Ritual Scalpel to > make Anu gain lots of blood quickly so she can pay for her powerful > special ability over and over again (and occasionally kill allies if > it comes up too). OK, but I haven´t experienced those uses as being effective, and it seems most people use other cards instead for doing those things, or use vamps of other clans. Perfectionist or Aquired Ventrue Assets to gain blood for example. > > I say the Nagaraja clan cards (as well as way too many other cards WW > > put out, see earlier topics) suck because they are bad. I base this > > on > > a.) they don´t ever turn up in any TWDs, and > > b.) they can be bought for less than 1 dollar (ie, low demand). > > I can add to this c.) that I have never seen them being played - and I > > play about 200 games every year, in multiple enviroments. > > You are way too hung up on the TWDA. I'm familiar with the TWDA. I > have lots of decks in the TWDA. I don't hang what is or is not > effective in a general sense on the TWDA. How can you not? Those decks work. People win with them. The cards in those decks are usually better than the cards we are discussing here. > Not every card is going to be Govern the Unaligned. Some cards are > good and will see play while not tearing up the tournament scene. That > *you* don't see these cards as remotely effective does not mean that, > in a general sense, that they can't be effective. I really don´t get the logic in this. Cards are good without turning up in good decks? And please quit talking about Govern the Unaligned - I haven´t compared the Nagaraja clan cards to Govern the Unaligned. > > Also, on the constructive critism account: It´s not very difficult > > making cards like these a bit more playable. Just add a secondary > > effect that is not so cornercase as the main effect. > > Sure! Just like Ritual Scalpel... Sure, that is an attempt in the right direction, just not good enough. > > See a bunch of your replies on this thread. Some later stated as > > "sarcasms", some not. > > Uh, you see "refutation of the ravings of a madman" as "bragging", > huh. Are you brain damaged? No, and I really don´t understand why you have to sink to asking me things like this. Please explain how good cards don´t show up in good decks instead. Thanks in advance.

On 8 Juni, 14:30, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 8, 8:10 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Does making comments like this make you feel better? Big, strong? > > Congratulations in that case, for I feel kind of hurt. I thought Peter > > B worked for WW (or at least had some strong personal connections to > > WW) and you, and several others, think that makes it ok to call me > > "ass", "douchebag", "troll" etc? Think that is "netiquette"? :) > > I just asked if you are brain damaged as, well, I'm beginning to think > that you are. Thanks. Just continue please, if you like, if this is a free forum for this kind of insult. If you can´t stick to the topic and argue without insulting people.

On Jun 8, 8:31 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > No. I started with implying that Nagaraja never gets any good clan > cards, and that those they have are not playable in any decent decks, > and that they are shit compared with the cards for Trujahs and > Salubri. When you paraphrase, why not do it more correctly? Calling them "shit" compared to something else? Functional equivalent to saying "they suck". > OK, but I haven´t experienced those uses as being effective, and it > seems most people use other cards instead for doing those things, or > use vamps of other clans. Perfectionist or Aquired Ventrue Assets to > gain blood for example. Sure. But having a card or two in a deck that can in one fell swoop gain you 4 blood while tapped and doing something that your deck was doing anyway? This is a reasonable plan. That people aren't doing it a lot isn't the result of it not being worth doing. It is the result of people not having vision. Or being too narrow minded to see past the TWDA. > How can you not? Those decks work. People win with them. The cards in > those decks are usually better than the cards we are discussing here. Usually, sure. But for every deck that is in the TWDA, there are 4 other decks that were just as good and made it to the finals and just didn't win. And many decks in the TWDA got into the TWDA as last seed into the finals and then ended up winning due to being in the right place at the right time. The TWDA is a good record of what people are playing. And a reasonably good measure of what works well. But is not the be all and end all record of what is or is not worth playing. > I really don´t get the logic in this. Cards are good without turning > up in good decks? And please quit talking about Govern the Unaligned - > I haven´t compared the Nagaraja clan cards to Govern the Unaligned. Govern the Unaligned is a good benchmark of "Card that is one of the best in the game". And also a good benchmark of "Card that shows up in the TWDA in excessive numbers." As such, expecting every card in the game to be one of the best in the game and show up in the TWDA in excessive numbers (which seems to be the benchmark you use for something being worth using or not) is similar to expecting every card to be as good as Govern. I'd never claim that you said that you want every card to be Govern, as you have never actually said such a thing. But it is a viable metaphor for conversational purposes. > Sure, that is an attempt in the right direction, just not good enough. Goalposts! Moving! > No, and I really don´t understand why you have to sink to asking me > things like this. Please explain how good cards don´t show up in good > decks instead. Thanks in advance. Dude. You started the hostilities here. Let me directly quote from your two initial responses: "Peter D, are you still on WW´s payroll? They still can´t make anything worth critizing huh?" "Because I think it´s fun. Why do you play? Because you like Gary Chatterton artwork?" "Maybe they are more into selling crap to people like you, I don´t know." "Try to win some tournaments with that, or at least take some VPs in a enviroment with not only total morons." "Please get back to reviewing Gary Chatterton artwork." Please spare us the wounded victim pose. You could have responded to my initial completely on topic and civil post in kind, but chose not to. And here we are. -Peter

On Jun 8, 8:40 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks. Just continue please, if you like, if this is a free forum for > this kind of insult. If you can´t stick to the topic and argue without > insulting people. I tried that the first time. You apparently decided that you didn't want to go in that direction. -Peter

On 8 Juni, 15:06, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 8, 8:31 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > No. I started with implying that Nagaraja never gets any good clan > > cards, and that those they have are not playable in any decent decks, > > and that they are shit compared with the cards for Trujahs and > > Salubri. When you paraphrase, why not do it more correctly? > > Calling them "shit" compared to something else? Functional equivalent > to saying "they suck". No. Can´t you understand the difference between "they are shit compared with the cards for Trujahs and Salubri" and just "they suck"? > > OK, but I haven´t experienced those uses as being effective, and it > > seems most people use other cards instead for doing those things, or > > use vamps of other clans. Perfectionist or Aquired Ventrue Assets to > > gain blood for example. > > Sure. But having a card or two in a deck that can in one fell swoop > gain you 4 blood while tapped and doing something that your deck was > doing anyway? This is a reasonable plan. That people aren't doing it a > lot isn't the result of it not being worth doing. It is the result of > people not having vision. Or being too narrow minded to see past the > TWDA. I don´t think that is a logical conclusion. I think the people that win tournaments have vision, and sometimes really original ideas show up at the TWDA, and when it´s really good those ideas are repeated (either in TWDs or in frequent game play.) > > How can you not? Those decks work. People win with them. The cards in > > those decks are usually better than the cards we are discussing here. > > Usually, sure. But for every deck that is in the TWDA, there are 4 > other decks that were just as good and made it to the finals and just > didn't win. And many decks in the TWDA got into the TWDA as last seed > into the finals and then ended up winning due to being in the right > place at the right time. The TWDA is a good record of what people are > playing. And a reasonably good measure of what works well. But is not > the be all and end all record of what is or is not worth playing. And I guess, by your logic, the 6th place deck is also as good as the winning deck? And the world is full of secret Consume the Dead-decks that is just as good as all the more fortunate decks with KRC? > > I really don´t get the logic in this. Cards are good without turning > > up in good decks? And please quit talking about Govern the Unaligned - > > I haven´t compared the Nagaraja clan cards to Govern the Unaligned. > > Govern the Unaligned is a good benchmark of "Card that is one of the > best in the game". And also a good benchmark of "Card that shows up in > the TWDA in excessive numbers." As such, expecting every card in the > game to be one of the best in the game and show up in the TWDA in > excessive numbers (which seems to be the benchmark you use for > something being worth using or not) is similar to expecting every card > to be as good as Govern. I'd never claim that you said that you want > every card to be Govern, as you have never actually said such a thing. > But it is a viable metaphor for conversational purposes. Yes, Govern is a good benchmark for "Card that is one of the best in the game". What has that to do with the Nagaraja clan cards being so bad they don´t get played at all? You don´t seem to understand what I am writing, and mix in "viable metaphors". Lots and lots of cards are not as great as Govern, I have no problem with that. > > No, and I really don´t understand why you have to sink to asking me > > things like this. Please explain how good cards don´t show up in good > > decks instead. Thanks in advance. > > Dude. You started the hostilities here. Let me directly quote from > your two initial responses: > > "Peter D, are you still on WW´s payroll? They still can´t make > anything worth critizing huh?" > > "Because I think it´s fun. Why do you play? Because you like Gary > Chatterton artwork?" > > "Maybe they are more into selling crap to people like you, I don´t > know." > > "Try to win some tournaments with that, or at least take some VPs in a > enviroment with not only total morons." > > "Please get back to reviewing Gary Chatterton artwork." > > Please spare us the wounded victim pose. You could have responded to > my initial completely on topic and civil post in kind, but chose not > to. And here we are. I don´t think any of these quotes are really insulting compared to calling me an "ass" or "douchebag" (or strongly implying that), or questioning why I play the game. You generally like WWs work? You like Gary Chatterton artwork, or at least have no problem with it? You have worked for WW, right? I somewhat understand why you feel insultet by being suspected for being a viral marketing agent, but it isn´t like asking someone if he is "brain damaged".

On Jun 8, 9:46 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > No. Can´t you understand the difference between "they are shit > compared with the cards for Trujahs and Salubri" and just "they suck"? Really? Now your plan is to make your point look suddenly valid through semantic nitpicking? Good luck with that. > I don´t think that is a logical conclusion. I think the people that > win tournaments have vision, and sometimes really original ideas show > up at the TWDA, and when it´s really good those ideas are repeated > (either in TWDs or in frequent game play.) Yes. People who have decks in the TWDA often have vision and often have very good ideas. But often, people who have decks not in the TWDA have vision and good ideas as well. Again. The TWDA is a good approximation of what kind of stuff is good and what kind of stuff people are playing. It is not the be all and end all of the game. > And I guess, by your logic, the 6th place deck is also as good as the > winning deck? Really? You want me to stop making comparisons and using viable metaphors and then wrote this? You slay me. > Yes, Govern is a good benchmark for "Card that is one of the best in > the game". What has that to do with the Nagaraja clan cards being so > bad they don´t get played at all? Wait. I thought they didn't suck? 'Cause I understand the difference between them being "shit" compared to other cards and "they suck". > I don´t think any of these quotes are really insulting compared to > calling me an "ass" or "douchebag" Clearly you don't. Which is why you thought it was a good idea to use them as a conversational gambit and then become surprised that people react negatively to you. -Peter

On Jun 8, 8:30 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 8, 8:10 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > "douchebag" > > douche bag > douche bag. > huge douche bag http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/6/2/ John Eno

On Jun 8, 5:25 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In the more general sense, I think "scarce" added an interesting menu of > choices - for the designers. I would imagine (with reasonable > certainty) that the designs of Obeah and Temporis would be pretty > different if LSJ new that people could easily get three vampires out > with each. I think you're right that such was the intent. I don't think that Obeah or Temporis are so much better than other disciplines, bloodlines or otherwise, that scarceness really worked out the way it was intended to, much like the infernal rule (particularly its original iteration). > I think both disciplines would probably be somewhat more... conservative > in their design in Bloodlines, if Scarce wasn't there. From my point of > view, they have some of the better fallback options on their cards (not > all, by any means) - Spirit Marionette is good bleed, Domain of > Evernight is good stealth. I think Speak with Spirits and Strength of > the Bear are both somewhat weaker at fallback, due to > costs/restrictions. I think Obeah and Temporis would be more like that. Probably. I consider the weakness of most outferior effects to be a design flaw, though, given that said weakness prevented the building of the kinds of decks that the Bloodlines set was meant to promote; ie, decks which mixed vanilla clans with bloodlines. Had those outferiors followed in the mold of Domain and Marionette, mixed-clan decks would be a lot more common. Since it's much easier to work around a small crypt selection than it is to to work around being forced to sometimes play with cards which provide distinctly inferior effects, it's not surprising that so many people ignored the designer's intent and built monoclan bloodlines decks. More to the point, since we're at the point where it seems like scarceness isn't interesting any more to the designer (see Al- Muntathir and Obaluaye, whose super-scarceness text continue to befuddle me), why not admit that the design didn't work as planned and move on, thus opening up options to the players? John Eno

[ quoted text not captured ] Melted butter. check.

[ quoted text not captured ] Yay! Buttery Popcorny goodness! Teeka, you want some?

On Jun 8, 11:36 am, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> wrote: > Popcorn. > check. Channel changer. <fumbles around under couch> Doh!

[ quoted text not captured ] No, stay, this show gets better! ;)

On Jun 8, 5:06 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 8, 5:23 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > No, it´s a way to win argumentations for people who don´t have any > > good arguments. > > Uh, yeah. You did, in fact, start this thread with "These 3 cards > suck" and go from there. Which is a paraphrase. > > > You are the one using petitio principii here, it is you. You say that > > the Nagaraja clan cards do not suck, because they are completely > > resonable/completely effective. > > And pointing out specific instances and examples of where and how they > are effective. Use Consume the Dead for when your blocking Hordes are > killed so your tapped Nagaraja can gain 4 blood. Use Ritual Scalpel to > make Anu gain lots of blood quickly so she can pay for her powerful > special ability over and over again (and occasionally kill allies if > it comes up too). I've been trying to avoid the Ashur vs Peter portion of this thread, but I did want to make one more point. There are compounding effects at play, Scarcity and Clan specific cards. When you play with Scarce vampires, you generally have three options: A) Use them as support vampires, B) Work them as a clan and spend extra card slots to mitigate the scarce penalty, or C) Go with a superstar concept and use support weenies (typically). When you start off with these design constraints, it is really hard to justify putting in conditional or prayerish cards. I think that the Nagaraja cards generally fit into this category. So as a result, you don't see them in use because they are marginal to begin with. Sure, those cards are decent, but I don't think there are enough other reasons to put them in your deck. That's why I tried to create some Wraiths that move around so you can force the issue on other Methuselahs (or at least try before you get blocked). Too bad my Turbo Lydia thread didn't get as much action. :) Jeff

On 8 Juni, 15:58, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Jun 8, 9:46 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > No. Can´t you understand the difference between "they are shit > > compared with the cards for Trujahs and Salubri" and just "they suck"? > > Really? Now your plan is to make your point look suddenly valid > through semantic nitpicking? Good luck with that. Thanks. Answer the question? > > I don´t think that is a logical conclusion. I think the people that > > win tournaments have vision, and sometimes really original ideas show > > up at the TWDA, and when it´s really good those ideas are repeated > > (either in TWDs or in frequent game play.) > > Yes. People who have decks in the TWDA often have vision and often > have very good ideas. But often, people who have decks not in the TWDA > have vision and good ideas as well. Again. The TWDA is a good > approximation of what kind of stuff is good and what kind of stuff > people are playing. It is not the be all and end all of the game. Oh. Now I see - we disagree on the definition of "good" then. I think "good" is cards that see game play and not become wallpaper. You have... other ideas. > > And I guess, by your logic, the 6th place deck is also as good as the > > winning deck? > > Really? You want me to stop making comparisons and using viable > metaphors and then wrote this? You slay me. I asked a question. You don´t answer. > > Yes, Govern is a good benchmark for "Card that is one of the best in > > the game". What has that to do with the Nagaraja clan cards being so > > bad they don´t get played at all? > > Wait. I thought they didn't suck? 'Cause I understand the difference > between them being "shit" compared to other cards and "they suck". I compared with the clan cards for Trujah and Salubri (of which some is good or at least worth playing). You compared with Govern the Unaligned (maybe the strongest, most versetile card in the game). See the difference? > > I don´t think any of these quotes are really insulting compared to > > calling me an "ass" or "douchebag" > > Clearly you don't. Which is why you thought it was a good idea to use > them as a conversational gambit and then become surprised that people > react negatively to you. Seriously, I don´t understand what you mean here. Yes, I am surprised with people (mainly you) think it´s ok to imply me being an "ass", "douchebag" and "brain damaged", words you generally hear small children call each other, when all I did was to suggest you worked for WW, like Gary Chatterton artwork and maybe play in a less competitive enviroment than many other players.

On 8 Cze, 20:26, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I don´t think any of these quotes are really insulting compared to > > > calling me an "ass" or "douchebag" > > > Clearly you don't. Which is why you thought it was a good idea to use > > them as a conversational gambit and then become surprised that people > > react negatively to you. > > Seriously, I don´t understand what you mean here. Yes, I am surprised > with people (mainly you) think it´s ok to imply me being an "ass", > "douchebag" and "brain damaged", words you generally hear small > children call each other, when all I did was to suggest you worked for > WW, like Gary Chatterton artwork and maybe play in a less competitive > enviroment than many other players. Peter just like to use the words. He even thinks he is right, you know. It's well known what i think about it. But we sidetracked the discussion. Jeff Kuta raised valid question. I am sure that Nagaraja cards would be used if opportunity cost was lower (you have to fish for nagaraja in question, mostly using Wider View or play superstar. Nagaraja are bad stars, Anu is most likely to be good star, shame her group is not filled yet). Sure, they have burn option, but it does not help much if you can't reliably use them. Scalpel would be good choice if there would be some Nagaraja with fortitude (multiple freak drives, both razor and scalpel) who have decent special (to make xe good star). Emergency Ratios would be good choice if there would be good big cap Nagaraja and mortals with burn option for non-nagaraja (so you can rely on mortal in your ash heap). Another way to make it good would be 90 card deck with liquidations and mortal allies - Anu + gio support + hordes is the way to go., too bad there are no G6 giovanni (emergency ratios could be played in 1/2 copies and we all know that sudario is full of win to bring it back). Last card would be good if there would be some good card that give more intercept to the hordes (so you can block with them, and die in process).

On Jun 8, 2:26 pm, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote: > I asked a question. You don´t answer. 'Cause you "asked a question" with a preposterous metaphor, right after you demanded that I stop using metaphors. You understand the concept of irony, right? > > Yes, Govern is a good benchmark for "Card that is one of the best in > > > the game". What has that to do with the Nagaraja clan cards being so > > > bad they don´t get played at all? > > > Wait. I thought they didn't suck? 'Cause I understand the difference > > between them being "shit" compared to other cards and "they suck". > > I compared with the clan cards for Trujah and Salubri (of which some > is good or at least worth playing). You compared with Govern the > Unaligned (maybe the strongest, most versetile card in the game). See > the difference? No, no, you specifically just said "What has that to do with the Nagaraja clan cards being so bad they don't get played at all" after putting an awful lot of effort into trying to refute that you thing the cards suck (remember when I paraphrased you as saying "these 3 cards suck", and you were all like "I never said that!" And here you are saying they are "so bad they don't get played at all." Which is worse than sucking, for my money). > Seriously, I don´t understand what you mean here. Then you are being either preposterously naive or completely disingenuous. You waded into your response to my completely civil and on topic discussion with accusations, dickishness, and general douche- baggery. Acting all surprised that people took it badly is just ridiculous. > when all I did was to suggest you worked for > WW, like Gary Chatterton artwork and maybe play in a less competitive > enviroment than many other players. No, no. You were striking out with belligerence. There were no innocent suggestions. There was you being a dick. Which is fine if that is how you want to play it. But don't then act all outraged that people call you on it. -Peter

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >Some people like >experimenting with crazy stuff and trying to find ways to make, like, >Olid Loa (which blows) into a solid card. I could see tossing a few into a Samedi gun deck, so that when you face - say - Brujah Flash decks, you can more easily get range. I think the bigger problem there is that Samedi equipment strategies are a pain in the ass, for a variety of reasons. Pool gain/cost of equipment is one side. Other decks that go for gun strategies - say, EuroBrujah, Toreador etc. - often have decent ousting power to go alongside it (Dominate, Presence etc.). So they can fire guns, get ousts (and therefore pool), and so on. I wonder if one option here might be to add a bleed action to Necromancy. The Giovanni wouldn't need to care about it (they have Dominate), but it could add more aggression to the Samedi and the Harbingers. Maybe the Nagaraja too. It'd be fine if the Giovanni did care about it, of course. I'd be aiming for something more reliable than Trochomancy. Just scratching around: Zombie Attack Action, Necromancy, 0 or 1 blood (unsure) [nec] (D) Bleed your prey at +1 bleed. [NEC] As [nec] above, and if you control a ready wraith ally or zombie ally, cards that require Dominate, Auspex or Vision cost an additional blood or life for the rest of this action. That superior is intended to apply to everyone - your reactions, but also my bleed mods. [ quoted text not captured ]

Kushiel <invisibl...@gmail.com> wrote: >More to the point, since we're at the point where it seems like >scarceness isn't interesting any more to the designer (see Al- >Muntathir and Obaluaye, whose super-scarceness text continue to >befuddle me), why not admit that the design didn't work as planned and >move on, thus opening up options to the players? Because then LSJ might feel unable to print cards that appear to be as powerful as Summon History, and thus shut off that option to the players? The new Temporis cards, in particular, seem to have attracted a lot of interest. Outside the Hourglass is very solid. Summon History is extremely flashy (though whether it works out well remains to be seen). Pocket Out Of Time seems to be interesting. I don't doubt that Scarce wasn't perfectly implemented when it first came in, but - to me - it certainly seems that later cards have attempted to pump the power curve a little harder. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:30:54 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >>Some people like >>experimenting with crazy stuff and trying to find ways to make, like, >>Olid Loa (which blows) into a solid card. > >I could see tossing a few into a Samedi gun deck, so that when you face >- say - Brujah Flash decks, you can more easily get range. Wouldn`t Rigor mortis be better in this situation? or cold aura? >I think the bigger problem there is that Samedi equipment strategies are >a pain in the ass, for a variety of reasons. Pool gain/cost of >equipment is one side. Other decks that go for gun strategies - say, >EuroBrujah, Toreador etc. - often have decent ousting power to go >alongside it (Dominate, Presence etc.). So they can fire guns, get >ousts (and therefore pool), and so on. These decks also have intercept, bounce and a better combat discipline. While we`re on this topic I`ve heard the idea of a samedi gun deck thrown around on for quite a while, but I still don`t really get why.None of the Combat cards are that spectacular with guns, and while Hag`s Wrinkles is nice gun decks are usually just better off with disguised/concealed weapon. Nosferatu gun decks seem better, just because they have carrion crows and terror frenzy, but people don`t seem to consider those. >I wonder if one option here might be to add a bleed action to >Necromancy. The Giovanni wouldn't need to care about it (they have >Dominate), but it could add more aggression to the Samedi and the >Harbingers. Maybe the Nagaraja too. It'd be fine if the Giovanni did >care about it, of course. I'd be aiming for something more reliable >than Trochomancy. Not gonna comment on your card design in detail, I`ll just point out that most samedi have at most inferior nec, so it`s really no better than computer hacking for them. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Jun 8, 8:16 am, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Jun 7, 11:02 pm, Kevin Walsh <hjal...@redbrick.dcu.ie> wrote: > > Blessing of the Beast? Really? It's like a sucky version of Storage > > Annex. > > Really???? That's what you get from this card??? > Yeah. It's really what I get from this card. About 30% of my deck is Spiritus cards, so on average Blessing of the Beast will let me store 2 cards, at the expense of a Master Phase Action (in a deck that's very tight on Masters already), and frequently it will only let me store 1. I'd rather play Monster, or The Rack, or Powerbase: Montreal, or Smiling Jack, or Vessel/Blood Doll, or Powerbase: Savannah, if I expect another Wall deck to be around. Kevin Walsh

> 27. XZealot Profiel weergeven Naar het Nederlandsvertalen Vertaald (origineel weergeven) > > Your position was derailed long ago. Mono-Nagaraja is the bomb. Try > it out Mono Nagaraja is the bomb? Huh what did I mis an expansion set or 2? Xzealot can I ask you a personal question? What do you do in real life? You know as a proffesion. Do you sell sand to the iraqies? Do you promote plasma TV's for the blind? You are so undiscribebly possitive about every vtes card ever released. Have you seen the movie Adams Apples? Or la Vita et Bella? You remind me of those movies for some reason? Greetz, Oortje

On Jun 9, 4:30 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > I could see tossing a few into a Samedi gun deck, so that when you face > - say - Brujah Flash decks, you can more easily get range. Oh, sure. That being said, in the name of making the people who envision me as a WW shill/apologist, I'll still stand on the side of Olid Loa being a pretty janky card :-) > I think the bigger problem there is that Samedi equipment strategies are > a pain in the ass, for a variety of reasons. Pool gain/cost of > equipment is one side. Other decks that go for gun strategies - say, > EuroBrujah, Toreador etc. - often have decent ousting power to go > alongside it (Dominate, Presence etc.). So they can fire guns, get > ousts (and therefore pool), and so on. All true. But I did have, for a while, a reasonably solid Jack Dawson multi rush gun deck that could reliably get VPs and win once and a while. Not the best deck ever (and needed grafted on CEL to Jack for the Psyches). But between the For for defense and Freaks and Obf to disguise guns, it was ok. > I wonder if one option here might be to add a bleed action to > Necromancy. The Giovanni wouldn't need to care about it (they have > Dominate), but it could add more aggression to the Samedi and the > Harbingers. Maybe the Nagaraja too. It'd be fine if the Giovanni did > care about it, of course. I'd be aiming for something more reliable > than Trochomancy. Yeah, that would probably be a good idea. I mean, I'm totally pro Trochomancy, myself--it tends to work fine in decks that are built to make it work (see: Slaughterhouse) and has the hilarious side effect of hosing the Imbued and recursion strategies. But pure Necromancy could certainly use a bleed card. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] I see this all the time in a deck that uses the SPI eagles sight, and it is nasty as hell. He usually gets about 3-5 cards down on howler, and that is usually very bad for everyone else

On Jun 9, 5:32 am, Pascal <Pasca...@nospam.com> wrote: > While we`re on this topic I`ve heard the idea of a samedi gun deck > thrown around on for quite a while, but I still don`t really get > why. Something fun to do with the Samedi? No, really, having Obf/For is pretty good for a gun strategy--you can disguise out good weapons (like the Ivory Bow), protect yourself in combat (fortitude), and multi act (Freak Drive). And stealth rush. I mean, not the best deck ever or anything, but not horrible. You can use Off Kilter for bloat, maybe Baroque for built in rush. Graft on some sort of defense (Lubomira and Truth in Ink?) and you got something to work with. Josette with a gun strategy suddenly becomes really good (torp/freak/steal). Again, not going to be as good, as, say, Kindred Spirits S+B or anything. But fun and possibly effective. > Nosferatu gun decks seem better, just because they have carrion crows > and terror frenzy, but people don`t seem to consider those. Lack of consistent fortitude. And lack of complimentary specials--Jack Dawson gets a free additional strike with a gun, Lithrac gets stealth on rushes and a bonus in a blood hunt, Baroque rushes (although the Nosferatu get some of that too), Josette steals folks. And the Nosferatu don't need guns. They have Potence. -Peter

Kushiel <invisibl...@gmail.com> writes: > On Jun 7, 12:22 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote: > > You know, Scarce is a trait. It's a mechanic of the game. If it's > > becoming a problem, we can always try to lobby to make it changed. > > It could just be dropped. > > > But I don't think it's a problem really. > > It's not a problem so much as an annoyance, as I noted in my response > to Peter. It limits deckbuilding choices, with no corresponding > gameplay or backstory reason to do so. > > > I would like to see more ways > > for the Trujah to all hang out together, but the problem is that means > > the Salubri, which are already very powerful, would get stronger too. > > Seriously? Even if you could play four Salubri at a time, I don't see > how they would even be as good as one of the Big-Boy-Pants clans like > Ventrue or Lasombra, let alone better than them. Have you had bad > experiences on the receiving end of a Marionette deck lately or > something? :) Two words: Renewed Vigor. A pair of vampires: Saulot and Eurayle. Seriously, I once played the hell out of a deck that slapped Obtenebration masters on Saulot, mainly to play Descent into Darkness and alleviate the scarce penalty while bringing Eurayle to play. That deck was the bomb. Playing Renewed Vigor *on* Saulot instead of *by* him is devastatingly powerful. Obeah is an awesome discipline. It's balanced because of the scarce trait. (Now, if we only had a ruling about making all vampires with superior Dominate scarce... (half-joking)). HG

Kushiel <invisibl...@gmail.com> writes: > More to the point, since we're at the point where it seems like > scarceness isn't interesting any more to the designer (see Al- > Muntathir and Obaluaye, whose super-scarceness text continue to > befuddle me), why not admit that the design didn't work as planned and > move on, thus opening up options to the players? "Super-scarceness" text befuddles you? Then allow me to explain. I think it's clever: It enforces the scarceness of the scarce vampires, while not restricting the choice of minions when building a deck. Only three Salubri or three Trujah are allowed per grouping, as before. But now you get to choose from four, not three, alternatives. HG

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 05:07:05 -0700 (PDT), Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >On Jun 9, 5:32 am, Pascal <Pasca...@nospam.com> wrote: >> While we`re on this topic I`ve heard the idea of a samedi gun deck >> thrown around on for quite a while, but I still don`t really get >> why. > >Something fun to do with the Samedi? Yeah, but I was curious about this specific thing. >No, really, having Obf/For is pretty good for a gun strategy--you can >disguise out good weapons (like the Ivory Bow), protect yourself in >combat (fortitude), and multi act (Freak Drive). And stealth rush. I >mean, not the best deck ever or anything, but not horrible. You can >use Off Kilter for bloat, maybe Baroque for built in rush. Graft on >some sort of defense (Lubomira and Truth in Ink?) and you got >something to work with. Josette with a gun strategy suddenly becomes >really good (torp/freak/steal). I`d change the really good part to pretty good, but those are certainly decent reasons. Thanks. Btw, I´d actually propose that Samedi get some defensive cards in the next bloodlines set. It would fit in with the defensive subtheme they`ve got going on their combat cards and with the RPG background about them being hired as bodyguards. >> Nosferatu gun decks seem better, just because they have carrion crows >> and terror frenzy, but people don`t seem to consider those. > >Lack of consistent fortitude. TBH, I just forgot that nosferatu don`t have for as a clan discipline. In my defense it`s been a while since i`ve seen one without it in play. Though I`d still say that quasi-setting the range via Terror frenzy and the 2 extra damage from crows make the nossie gun deck better. Deep song also helps. >And lack of complimentary specials--Jack >Dawson gets a free additional strike with a gun, Lithrac gets stealth >on rushes and a bonus in a blood hunt, Baroque rushes (although the >Nosferatu get some of that too), Josette steals folks. And the >Nosferatu don't need guns. They have Potence. Yeah, but it`s still something fun to do with Nosferatu. Like that Arika multi rush deck somebody build.

On Jun 9, 8:33 am, Pascal <Pasca...@nospam.com> wrote: > I`d change the really good part to pretty good, but those are > certainly decent reasons. Thanks. Well, yeah, ok. But if you can reliably torp folks (which is the trick, I suppose), being able to steal them from torpor could be huge. Especially if you can pay for the ability with your opponent's blood via Taste :-) > TBH, I just forgot that nosferatu don`t have for as a clan discipline. > In my defense it`s been a while since i`ve seen one without it in > play. > Though I`d still say that quasi-setting the range via Terror frenzy > and the 2 extra damage from crows make the nossie gun deck better. > Deep song also helps. Oh, sure--granted, I have seen plenty of Nosferatu Prince with disguised Assault Rifles and Parity Shift to pay for them decks in circulation (heck, I think at least one is in the TWDA), so *someone* is playing Nosferatu with Guns. > Yeah, but it`s still something fun to do with Nosferatu. > Like that Arika multi rush deck somebody build. Give the Nosferatu Royalty with Assault Rifles a whirl--Sheldon/Selma/ Nikolaus can freak and play damage prevention as needed, 2nd Tradition to block, pass Parity Shifts to pay for the guns. Not a horrible deck. And probably better than the Samedi :-) -Peter

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 05:46:57 -0700 (PDT), Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >> Yeah, but it`s still something fun to do with Nosferatu. >> Like that Arika multi rush deck somebody build. > >Give the Nosferatu Royalty with Assault Rifles a whirl--Sheldon/Selma/ >Nikolaus can freak and play damage prevention as needed, 2nd Tradition >to block, pass Parity Shifts to pay for the guns. Not a horrible deck. >And probably better than the Samedi :-) But is it better than Nagaraja? ;-)

On Jun 9, 9:13 am, Pascal <Pasca...@nospam.com> wrote: > But is it better than Nagaraja? ;-) Probably not. It doesn't have dominate :-) -Peter

On Jun 9, 8:32 am, h...@iki.fi (Janne Hägglund) wrote: > "Super-scarceness" text befuddles you? Yeah, because it's text that'll never actually have an effect on the game. Like, I agree with your assessment of what it was trying to do. But aside from preventing the Salubri and Trujah Embrace decks which, well, already didn't exist, it doesn't matter during play. John Eno

[ quoted text not captured ] But is it better than all three of the Nagaraja clan cards? I say yes it is. Storage Annex is better than all 3 Nagaraja clan cards. (With my original meaning of the word better in this case: Either more versatile, more inspiring to build a deck around, or just more useful to any of the basic strategies that lead to VP and GW). best - chris

On Jun 9, 12:35 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Storage Annex is better than all 3 Nagaraja clan cards. (With my original > meaning of the word better in this case: Either more versatile, more > inspiring to build a deck around, or just more useful to any of the basic > strategies that lead to VP and GW). Yeah, I dunno--I mean, I'm not going to defend Emergency Rations, but still, Consume the Dead (in a deck that is already having allies die anyway) is a totally solid card, and Anu+Ritual Scalpel seems like solid tech to me. I'd much rather use a Consume the Dead or a Ritual Scalpel in the appropriate deck than a Storage Annex. -Peter

Kushiel <invisibl...@gmail.com> writes: [ quoted text not captured ] VTES is a trading card game. One half of the game is sitting down at a table and playing the game, but there's the other half: creating decks. The "super-scarce" rule may not affect the "playing the game" part, but it helps the "building a deck" part, by giving players more options. Likewise, the reprinting of Villeins, Deflections and other wanted cards in starter decks has not affected the "playing the game" part. Not one bit. But it has been a tremendous help for the "building a deck" part. Hope you understand now...? HG

[ quoted text not captured ] Weighing in late, but the biggest problem I see with the comparison to Trujah and Salubri is that the Nagaraja don't seem to have many vampires fit to build "Star Vampire" decks around, and with Scarce, that causes a problem. LDT and Senna are good, but are going to be auxillary. Of the 42 decks in the TWDA that have Nagaraja, 5 have 3 instances of Le Dinh Tho. No other deck has more than 2 Nagaraja, often just the 1. Scarce really limits any chance of an increase there. With that portion of your crypt devoted to such a minor instance of a clan, having unusable cards even with Burn Icons seems wasted. The fact that some of these would be quite well stackable in the right kind of deck, seems to put the blame of these on Scarce, rather than any real issues with the cards themselves. Having 3-4 vamps gain up to 4 blood each when a retainer or ally goes poof? Will it be as competitive as Stealth/Power Bleed? Probably not. But if that's the only yardstick, that's pretty sad. And boring. Of course, any number of vampires Clan Impersonating to Nagaraja and using Weather Control, or Pack Alpha (sup) when blocking, makes Consume great. Or a Nagaraja with tha/THA/ANI. Venificorum could work. And they share two in-clans with Tremere. Anyway, YMMV. Morgan Vening

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Give the Nosferatu Royalty with Assault Rifles a whirl-- > Sheldon/Selma/Nikolaus can freak and play damage prevention as > needed, 2nd Tradition to block, pass Parity Shifts to pay for the > guns. Not a horrible deck. And probably better than the Samedi :-) But that isn't because of anything clan-related. It's because Parity Shift is better than anything the Samedi have. :P Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please bid on my auctions! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html

On Jun 9, 1:02 pm, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> wrote: > I see this all the time in a deck that uses the SPI eagles sight, and > it is nasty as hell. He usually gets about 3-5 cards down on howler, > and that is usually very bad for everyone else Hmm...what's the combat package like in the deck? Kevin Walsh

On 9 Cze, 19:48, Morgan Vening <mor...@optusnet.com.au> wrote: > On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:51:44 -0700 (PDT), Peter D Bakija > > <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > >On Jun 9, 12:35 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > >> Storage Annex is better than all 3 Nagaraja clan cards. (With my original > >> meaning of the word better in this case: Either more versatile, more > >> inspiring to build a deck around, or just more useful to any of the basic > >> strategies that lead to VP and GW). > > >Yeah, I dunno--I mean, I'm not going to defend Emergency Rations, but > >still, Consume the Dead (in a deck that is already having allies die > >anyway) is a totally solid card, and Anu+Ritual Scalpel seems like > >solid tech to me. I'd much rather use a Consume the Dead or a Ritual > >Scalpel in the appropriate deck than a Storage Annex. > > >-Peter > > Weighing in late, but the biggest problem I see with the comparison to > Trujah and Salubri is that the Nagaraja don't seem to have many > vampires fit to build "Star Vampire" decks around, and with Scarce, > that causes a problem. LDT and Senna are good, but are going to be > auxillary. Of the 42 decks in the TWDA that have Nagaraja, 5 have 3 > instances of Le Dinh Tho. No other deck has more than 2 Nagaraja, > often just the 1. Scarce really limits any chance of an increase > there. Anu is material for the star. Shame she don't have G6 gio buddies. Ritual Scalpel is not as good for her, but i can see splash copy of it. Emergency Ratios seems like a very good card for her with sudario and liquidations, I think it would be not bad deck, and instance where it's actually worth it. In most Le Dinh Tho decks, it's not really worth it to include prayer gain 4 blood i think. Build without it have less moving part, and is less likely to success. > With that portion of your crypt devoted to such a minor instance of a > clan, having unusable cards even with Burn Icons seems wasted. The > fact that some of these would be quite well stackable in the right > kind of deck, seems to put the blame of these on Scarce, rather than > any real issues with the cards themselves. Having 3-4 vamps gain up to > 4 blood each when a retainer or ally goes poof? Nope, just 1 can gain anything each ally/retainer. Check wording. Wider View MIGHT make cards with burn option more useful. > Will it be as competitive as Stealth/Power Bleed? Probably not. But if > that's the only yardstick, that's pretty sad. And boring. Nah, there is also weenie auspex, imbued, parity shift politics ;) > Of course, any number of vampires Clan Impersonating to Nagaraja and > using Weather Control, or Pack Alpha (sup) when blocking, makes > Consume great. Or a Nagaraja with tha/THA/ANI. Venificorum could work. > And they share two in-clans with Tremere. > > Anyway, YMMV. > > Morgan Vening Not worth it.

On Jun 9, 1:42 pm, h...@iki.fi (Janne Hägglund) wrote: > VTES is a trading card game. One half of the game is sitting down at a table > and playing the game, but there's the other half: creating decks. > > The "super-scarce" rule may not affect the "playing the game" part, but it > helps the "building a deck" part, by giving players more options. > > Likewise, the reprinting of Villeins, Deflections and other wanted cards in > starter decks has not affected the "playing the game" part. Not one bit. > But it has been a tremendous help for the "building a deck" part. > > Hope you understand now...? I've understood all along. I just don't agree. Crazy how that happens, innit? :) Since there is the scarce mechanism in the game, there's never been any need to limit the scarce clans to only three vampires per grouping pair. You're never going to have more than three in play at a time, so there could have been as many printed of them as the other bloodlines - more, in fact - without affecting sit-at-the-table gameplay. That's what irks me about the scarce rule - it's a rule built to limit how many of the scarce clans you can have in play, but that limit already exists due to real cardboard availability. So having the super-scarce guys be printed cool, because it apparently allows WW to print all the scarce vampires which they could have already been printing. Having the super-scarce guys be printed would also be cool if the scarce mechanic was dropped (and the text on those guys is just all the more reason to drop that rule, since it maintains the "no more than three" restriction). Put another way, there's just no reason to limit the scarce clans both in terms of the scarce rule and in terms of their actual scarceness by grouping pair. Even if you think that Temporis and Obeah are Sooper- Disciplines (which I don't), both of those limiters don't need to exist to keep the scarce clans from being overpowered. And since one of those limiters affects both deckbuilding and sit-at-the-table play, and the other only matters to sit-at-the-table play, I'm not sure why the former still exists. John Eno

On 9 Juni, 10:30, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > I wonder if one option here might be to add a bleed action to > Necromancy. The Giovanni wouldn't need to care about it (they have > Dominate), but it could add more aggression to the Samedi and the > Harbingers. Maybe the Nagaraja too. It'd be fine if the Giovanni did > care about it, of course. I'd be aiming for something more reliable > than Trochomancy. Yes, I have thought about this one too. I think it would be great. > Just scratching around: > > Zombie Attack > Action, Necromancy, 0 or 1 blood (unsure) > [nec] (D) Bleed your prey at +1 bleed. > [NEC] As [nec] above, and if you control a ready wraith ally or > zombie ally, cards that require Dominate, Auspex or Vision cost an > additional blood or life for the rest of this action. > > That superior is intended to apply to everyone - your reactions, but > also my bleed mods. Sounds nice. I guess a cost of 0 is ok.

[ quoted text not captured ] Murders and Manuevers, C Crows, Some untaps... Kind of annoying grind you down, similar to !Ven grinder. Just having that Muricia's call sit there is gold. See table state, fetch cept if neede, 1r otherwise. It is pretty impressive with deck recursion tech He plays it in such a way that he is playing a LOT of Spiritus and about 4-5 Spirit Beast. I have seen him play 3 in one game, it was sick.....

[ quoted text not captured ] Also Aid from Bats, so annoying combat

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >On Jun 9, 5:32 am, Pascal <Pasca...@nospam.com> wrote: >> While we`re on this topic I`ve heard the idea of a samedi gun deck >> thrown around on for quite a while, but I still don`t really get >> why. > >Something fun to do with the Samedi? > >No, really, having Obf/For is pretty good for a gun strategy Also that the Samedi seem to have been intended to have a little fun with equipment - Jack and Hag's Wrinkles. Since guns are - typically - among the better equipment choices and the Samedi have some combative disciplines, it seems like this was something that might have been thought about by the designers. Obviously, the melee weapon side is covered reasonably by the !Samedi. Of the clans introduced in Bloodlines, I'd be most interested to know what the playtest experience was like of the Samedi and the !Salubri. Both seem to have some sort of design coherence behind them (e.g. the !Salubri melee weapon theme), while lacking any... oomph in the Bloodlines set. [ quoted text not captured ]

Pascal <Pasc...@nospam.com> wrote: >On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:30:54 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> >wrote: > >>Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >>>Some people like >>>experimenting with crazy stuff and trying to find ways to make, like, >>>Olid Loa (which blows) into a solid card. >> >>I could see tossing a few into a Samedi gun deck, so that when you face >>- say - Brujah Flash decks, you can more easily get range. >Wouldn`t Rigor mortis be better in this situation? or cold aura? For much the same reason that you (rightly) criticize the potential effectiveness of a Necromancy bleed action, these can have problems too. The lack of discipline coherence can prove tricky. Jack Dawson lacks THAN, as does Lithrac. Lithrac also lacks any nec/NEC at all. Both would be interesting vampires to use for such a deck. Then there are several who do have such disciplines, but lack other useful ones to help out - as Peter points out, obf/for is a reasonable combination for this. Angel lacks useful disciplines, Toy is just weird, Tangine lacks fortitude etc. Later groups do somewhat better than earlier groups. I did feel a bit when looking at later BL sets that the vampires were designed to bolster earlier library cards, and the library cards were designed to bolster earlier crypt cards. [ quoted text not captured ]