Catiff-anyone use them

I was just wonder does anyone actually use catiff in their decks as most of the decks I see here never touch them. Are they actually any good at all. I usually stick either Nik or smudge the ignored in just to give smudge fame or try and get Nik that +1 hamd damage. It's never going to happen but its something to aim for :-) mark wilkin "I was one of seventeen children.We were all named Wilkinson-I suppose it was roughest on the girls,but we all got used to it in the end....Mustn't grumble.Our parents were the salt of the earth.Lovely people.It was just when they found a name they liked,they stuck with it." Sandman, A Game of You.

mark.wilkin wrote: > > I was just wonder does anyone actually use catiff in their decks as most > of the decks I see here never touch them. > Are they actually any good at all. It really depends on (a) what kind of deck you're playing and (b) how bad the disad. on the particular Caitiff/Pander is. For example, Hasina Kesi is rather mighty, since she's got Potence. She can Bum's Rush, play Torn Signpost, Immortal Grapple, ... all the good combat cards you'd want her to, and then she can Disarm and diablerize you. Her disadvantage simply makes her cost 2 (like KoKo or Lupo), and you just make sure she doesn't go to torpor again. A vampire like Navar McCracken is just plain bad. He's only got Animalism, which is really good for blocking people (which he can't do), and really good in combination with other disciplines (which he doesn't have). Vliam Andor is 10 times better (but still pretty bad himself). Someone like Igo the Hungry is kind of middle of the road. For example, in my Deep Space Bled For Nine deck (a Pre/Obf weenie bleed deck), Igo is perfect, since he's a 1 with presence. His disadvantage is kind of minor, as long as you have Hunting Grounds or some other way to prevent him from having to hunt. So, you see, it really varies, though some of the Caitiff/Pander are really bad, and some are exceptionally good (I didn't even mention Jimmy Dunn). James -- James Hamblin ham...@math.wisc.edu "Oh, there you are. Out of donuts, are we?" -- Fraser Official Jyhad/V:tES FAQ Maintainer http://www.math.wisc.edu/~hamblin/faq.html

In article <6vnhf1$7jt$1...@orac.sunderland.ac.uk>, mark.wilkin <aa4...@zen.sunderland.ac.uk> writes > >I was just wonder does anyone actually use catiff in their decks as most >of the decks I see here never touch them. If they've got the disciplines I want, I'll use them. eg Magdalena in a Tremere deck, Navar/Igo in a Gangrel deck. >Are they actually any good at all. I usually stick either Nik or smudge >the ignored in just to give smudge fame or try and get Nik that +1 hamd >damage. It's never going to happen but its something to aim for :-) Don't look at their abilities, just their disciplines. They'll slot into decks. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net

In article <361F7442...@math.wisc.edu>, James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> writes >A vampire like Navar McCracken is just plain bad. Actually, I'm inclined to disagree. In a deck with Animalism in it, he makes a good weenie who is just as capable of bleeding for 1 as everyone else. Also, he can defend himself with animalism cards like other people (Song, Carrion Crows etc.) and he can just cycle away the useless cards you're not using for you. [ quoted text not captured ]

aa4...@zen.sunderland.ac.uk (mark.wilkin) wrote: >I was just wonder does anyone actually use catiff in their decks as most >of the decks I see here never touch them. >Are they actually any good at all. I usually stick either Nik or smudge >the ignored in just to give smudge fame or try and get Nik that +1 hamd >damage. It's never going to happen but its something to aim for :-) Caitiff need a deck built around them that allows for their weaknesses (low capacity, often easily torpored, etc.). When used as flavor/support for favorite decks, they often end up as just a punching dummy for whomever comes at you. When used as a deck concept unto themselves, they can be devastating. When you think about it, you get all the abilities of any other basic vampire, but for a single pool. Caitiff can bleed for one, hunt, diablerize, equip, etc., and you haven't cashed out even a minor fraction of your pool. Extend this to a crypt that includes all the one capacities (including Pander), and you have 14 vampires (although most people would leave out Uriah Winter). Build a deck heavy on the Parthenon, Effective Managements, Info Highway, and Computer Hackings, and you'll have 14 seperate bleed actions per turn at the expense of 14-18 pool. If you're worried about losing too many to combat, include some Leather Jackets. If the pool loss bothers you, Tribute to the Master (so you hunt for a turn...you've just gained 14 pool). Stick to free equipment, and the basics that every Vampire gets, and you have a pretty intimidating deck... Yeah, Caitiff can be good, even Nik... Regards, R. David Zopf guenh...@mindspring.com Atom Weaver and future Prince of Charlotte, NC

In article <6vnhf1$7jt$1...@orac.sunderland.ac.uk>, mark.wilkin <aa4...@zen.sunderland.ac.uk> wrote: > >I was just wonder does anyone actually use catiff in their decks as most >of the decks I see here never touch them. >Are they actually any good at all. I usually stick either Nik or smudge >the ignored in just to give smudge fame or try and get Nik that +1 hamd >damage. It's never going to happen but its something to aim for :-) Hesina Kesi Kicks ass, and I'm pretty fond of Royce too. Not to mention all the 1 caps with presence. -- /\ Jasper Phillips /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--. * http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`

Mark Wilkin wrote: "I was just wonder does anyone actually use catiff in their decks as most of the decks I see here never touch them. Are they actually any good at all. I usually stick either Nik or smudge the ignored in just to give smudge fame or try and get Nik that +1 hamd damage. It's never going to happen but its something to aim for :-)" Nah. People use the Caitif all the time. Most deck archtypes have a Caitif or two that can easily fit in, like incredibly handy Hasina Kessi in a Potence Rush deck or Nik in a Brujah deck. More often than that, however, the Caitif show up in weenie based decks that rely on all small vampires. Very strong and fast Presence based bleed decks use plenty of Caitif (as there are a good supply with Pre). The archtypical "wennie vote" deck tends to use all Caitif with complete disregard to their disciplines, as does some sort of inhuman wave bleed deck, that consists of nothing but Caitif, Effective Management, Info Highway, Misdirection, and Computer Hacking. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "If we can focus, keep discipline, and not have quite as many mysterious deaths, Sunnydale is gonna _RULE_!" -Bobby

> I was just wonder does anyone actually use catiff in their decks as most > of the decks I see here never touch them. > Are they actually any good at all. Depends on the deck I'm building. If I'm building a deck that requires a specific clan (or 2 or 3), probably not. If I'm building a deck that uses unusual discipline combinations (like Igo's Protean-Presence) or a weenie deck, by all means I will. I've looked at making a for-dom-pot deck and tossed about the idea of putting Uriah Winter in it. Dan Murdock will easily go into a Malk deck. I'm also trying to come up with a way that makes Uriah's weakness an advatage. Maybe something with Betrayer. I find the Panders to be great. I put together a aus-obf-pre deck that had Lena Rowe in it and Jimmy Dunn is a great add for any Brujah deck. Noal -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

In article <6vnhf1$7jt$1...@orac.sunderland.ac.uk>, aa4...@zen.sunderland.ac.uk (mark.wilkin) wrote: > > I was just wonder does anyone actually use catiff in their decks as most > of the decks I see here never touch them. > Are they actually any good at all. I usually stick either Nik or smudge > the ignored in just to give smudge fame or try and get Nik that +1 hamd > damage. It's never going to happen but its something to aim for :-) > Can we say "Smudge gets lots of hand damage" deck? Hell, yeah! Woo-hoo! I'll get that 7 hand damage one of these days... Xian "you can just ignore it....and let hand jam sort them out." -Jasper Phillips [ quoted text not captured ]

aa4...@zen.sunderland.ac.uk (mark.wilkin) wrote: >I was just wonder does anyone actually use catiff in their decks as most >of the decks I see here never touch them. >Are they actually any good at all. I usually stick either Nik or smudge >the ignored in just to give smudge fame or try and get Nik that +1 hamd >damage. It's never going to happen but its something to aim for :-) An all-Caitiff (plus Pander?) deck got second place at the VTES tournament at Dragon*Con '98 (out of a field of 19 players). Speed Kills. :-) -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | "Sorry, the florist was closed," http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | Tom said lackadaisically. Graphics Specialist and V:TES Rulemonger |

Dhar...@yahoo.com wrote: >I'm also trying to come up with a way that makes Uriah's weakness an >advatage. Maybe something with Betrayer. Uriah Winter, Revelations of the Sire to Setite, and play with a ton of Jackals (hee, hee, hee) It makes use of a mostly useless vamp, plus a mostly useless retainer, all at once! This can also overlap with the Betrayer idea... The only problem is having Uriah roaming to your grand-prey etc., once you really start to hammer your prey with stealth presence bleeds using the Jackals... [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <6vnhf1$7jt$1...@orac.sunderland.ac.uk>, aa4...@zen.sunderland.ac.uk (mark.wilkin) wrote: > > I was just wonder does anyone actually use catiff in their decks as most > of the decks I see here never touch them. > Are they actually any good at all. I usually stick either Nik or smudge > the ignored in just to give smudge fame or try and get Nik that +1 hamd > damage. It's never going to happen but its something to aim for :-) > > mark wilkin > "I was one of seventeen children.We were all named Wilkinson-I suppose it > was roughest on the girls,but we all got used to it in the end....Mustn't > grumble.Our parents were the salt of the earth.Lovely people.It was just > when they found a name they liked,they stuck with it." > Sandman, A Game of You. > > A Friend of mine actually has a very good weenie rush deck. With all of the Catiff and the Pandor, with Jimmie Dunn, and some of the lower cost clan members, Big Bad weapons, Info Highway, and so on. By his third turn he usually had 4+ vamps out and bleeding you. very nasty. I've been able to bet it bairly sometimes with a combat deck by burning the wimps or at least sending them to torpor, but it's always very close. Umbradomo, the Shadow Mage [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <6vu8q9$qht$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <umbr...@rocketmail.com> wrote: > >A Friend of mine actually has a very good weenie rush deck. With all of the >Catiff and the Pandor, with Jimmie Dunn, and some of the lower cost clan >members, Big Bad weapons, Info Highway, and so on. By his third turn he >usually had 4+ vamps out and bleeding you. very nasty. I've been able to bet >it bairly sometimes with a combat deck by burning the wimps or at least >sending them to torpor, but it's always very close. One of my Rush decks has an average capacity just above 3 (and that's with Beast). I've never really thought of it as a weenie deck, but I guess it's pretty damn close. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Uriah Winter, Revelations of the Sire to Setite, and play with a ton > of Jackals (hee, hee, hee) It makes use of a mostly useless vamp, > plus a mostly useless retainer, all at once! This can also overlap > with the Betrayer idea... The only problem is having Uriah roaming to > your grand-prey etc., once you really start to hammer your prey with > stealth presence bleeds using the Jackals... Not a bad idea... I'm working up a Animalism-Auspex-Dominate deck. I was going to go the route of wake, intercept, Obedience...but I could try this idea in it as well. Aisha having Auspex and Animalism, and being a Setite to boot... You need animalism to get the Jackals in the first place. Auspex to use Eagle's Sight to block any move that makes your grand prey have less pool than your prey. Dominate for heavy bleed and pool management. Hmm.... Noal McDonald Bleary Eyed Bastard of Westland, MI [ quoted text not captured ]

L. Scott Johnson wrote: > > An all-Caitiff (plus Pander?) deck got second place at the VTES tournament > at Dragon*Con '98 (out of a field of 19 players). > > Speed Kills. :-) > Yes, but it also helps me finish my CS homework and still post volumes on USENET (although I suppose I've been awfully quiet lately).... Or how about... Methamphetamine Laced Blood Master: Out of Turn Play this card on a vampire that has successfully hunted. A vampire with this card may untap between Methuselahs' turns and may take actions at the end of any Methuselah's minion phase. At the end of this vampire's Methuselah's untap phase, burn this card and all blood on this vampire, and tap this vampire. -Chris

In article <6vnhf1$7jt$1...@orac.sunderland.ac.uk>, aa4...@zen.sunderland.ac.uk says... > > >I was just wonder does anyone actually use catiff in their decks as most >of the decks I see here never touch them. A friend of mine has a good "tiny-toons" deck, as he calls it. Basically a lot of the catiff, and smaller camarilla vampires with 2 or 3 blood. He then proceeds to bring out five or six vampires while everyone else only has 2 or 3. He also makes the all princes or justicars through votes, has lots of stealth and avoids combat like nobodies business. Then votes people to death or simply uses overwhelming odds agaiinst you. Seems to work well in large games with all the in-fighting and such.