Card Text:
(D) Enter combat with a ready minion controlled
by another Methuselah. This acting vampire has +X strength
and +X capacity. Before the combat begins, each chosen
vampire must move 1 blood to the acting vampire or this action
is canceled.
Now I was looking up some stuff and came across this post:
http://tinyurl.com/3axpp
which tells us that for a blocked coagulated entity, the cost does not
need to be paid by the blood brothers.
But the wording on the card seems to contradict this...
As the blood brothers paying 1 each is not a standard, on-the-card cost
like say the 1 blood that Wolf claws costs, I don't see how the blood
brothers would not pay the cost.
According to the card text, if the brothers do not pay the cost the action
is cancelled. As we all know no combat can occur outside of an action
so it would seem if the blood brothers do not pay the 1 blood that the
combat
resulting from the block would be cancelled along with the action.
Where's my reasoning going wrong?
-JTP
John P. wrote:
> But the wording on the card seems to contradict this...
> As the blood brothers paying 1 each is not a standard, on-the-card cost
> like say the 1 blood that Wolf claws costs, I don't see how the blood
> brothers would not pay the cost.
> According to the card text, if the brothers do not pay the cost the action
> is cancelled. As we all know no combat can occur outside of an action
> so it would seem if the blood brothers do not pay the 1 blood that the
> combat
> resulting from the block would be cancelled along with the action.
>
> Where's my reasoning going wrong?
Card text on an action card doesn't trigger if the action is blocked,
unless card text specifies otherwise (eg, Force of Will). Compare: if
your Bum's Rush is blocked, you do not get the manuever.
Similarly, if Coagulate Entity is blocked, the acting minion does not
get the +X strength/capacity, and the BBs do not need to pay the cost.
--Colin McGuigan
"Colin McGuigan" <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:Bs-dnUR4jZ0...@speakeasy.net...
> John P. wrote:> Card text on an action card doesn't trigger if the action is blocked,
> unless card text specifies otherwise (eg, Force of Will). Compare: if
> your Bum's Rush is blocked, you do not get the manuever.
But you still do not replace the Bum's rush because of card text.
Is that because the card text for "do not replace" has already been
triggered, where as the Coagulated Entity's burn blood effect has not been
triggered yet?
Almost there, I think...
-JTP
"John P." <jtpa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<lrEGc.36288$WB5.5743@pd7tw2no>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
First of all, it is not a cost, it is move blood.
It is an action not a combat card.
so you tap a blood brother, you play the card, you
choose x blood brothers and one ready minion to enter
combat with.
If the action is blocked then you enter combat with
the blocking minion as the result of the block, you don't
move any blood and you don't get any benefit from coag.entity.
if it is not blocked, then you do what the card says,
move 1 blood from the chosen blood brothers to the
acting one and you enter combat with the chosen minion.
John P. wrote:
> But you still do not replace the Bum's rush because of card text.
> Is that because the card text for "do not replace" has already been
> triggered, where as the Coagulated Entity's burn blood effect has not been
> triggered yet?
Yes.
"Do not replace" is, by necessity, applied when the card is played.
The effects of the action are not applied until the action (successfully)
resolves.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"John P." <jtpa...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<WlKGc.38854$P7.28146@pd7tw3no>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
When you play bum's rush, you "don't replace it until the end of
the action", that has nothing to do with the action which is "enter
combat and you have a maneuver bla bla bla". The do not replace
condition is active when you play the card, has nothing to do with the
action.
Coagulated Entity's "move x blood bla bla bla" is the result of the
action, but bum's rush "do not replace" is not a result of the action,
it is the result of playing the card and that's why it is effective at
the time you play it.
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<%mQGc.207864$Gx4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> John P. wrote:
> > But you still do not replace the Bum's rush because of card text.
> > Is that because the card text for "do not replace" has already been
> > triggered, where as the Coagulated Entity's burn blood effect has not been
> > triggered yet?
>
> Yes.
> "Do not replace" is, by necessity, applied when the card is played.
> The effects of the action are not applied until the action (successfully)
> resolves.
by the way, i think you should have made coagulated entity a +1
stealth action.
it is not a common card like bum's rush, harash, ambush, game of
insticts e.t.c. it is a rare, bloodline card. So i think it would be
better if it had +1 stealth and maybe some other drawback to make up
for the +1 stealth. like a do not replace clause or something like
this.
but that's just my humble opinion.
> by the way, i think you should have made coagulated entity a +1
> stealth action.
> it is not a common card like bum's rush, harash, ambush, game of
> insticts e.t.c. it is a rare, bloodline card. So i think it would be
> better if it had +1 stealth and maybe some other drawback to make up
> for the +1 stealth. like a do not replace clause or something like
> this.
> but that's just my humble opinion.
Rarity has no influence on card power. +1 stealth would make it very, very
broken.
--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
XZealot wrote:
>
> Rarity has no influence on card power.
Really?
It definetly used to have influence...
More clearly in That Other Cardgame[tm], but also in Jyhad.
//Doc.
--
"Wees jezelf, er zijn al zoveel anderen" - Loesje
begin Your_MS_program_incorrectly_interprets_this_as_an_attachment.txt
The Doctor wrote:
> XZealot wrote:
>>>
>> Rarity has no influence on card power.>
>
> Really?
>
> It definetly used to have influence...
> More clearly in That Other Cardgame[tm], but also in Jyhad.
Not really, no. Garfield learned his lesson from that other
game.
Any official sources to the contrary?
[ quoted text not captured ]
The Doctor wrote:
> Really?
>
> It definetly used to have influence...
> More clearly in That Other Cardgame[tm], but also in Jyhad.
The Other Game(tm) was designed under a principle that people wouldn't
shell out thousands of bucks to get the best cards. RCG learned from
that mistake before Jyhad.
Rares in Jyhad tend to be more cornercase than other cards. Not "You
need to have this card to be competitive".
(Certainly, there are exceptions. Freak Drive is a pretty powerful
card, all told, and is a requirement for multirush. Note that it got
moved from Rare to Uncommon in Camarilla.)
--Colin McGuigan
Colin McGuigan wrote:
> (Certainly, there are exceptions. Freak Drive is a pretty powerful
> card, all told, and is a requirement for multirush. Note that it got
> moved from Rare to Uncommon in Camarilla.)
That's not really an exception.
There's no indication that Freak Drive's rarity contributed to
the power it was afforded in the design stage.
There's a difference between "some rare cards are strong" and
"rarity can be used as a balancing factor: cards designed to
be rare can designed to be stronger than cards designed to be
common"
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ wrote:
> That's not really an exception.
I meant an exception to the idea that rares are more cornercase than
non-rares, not in terms of its power.
--Colin McGuigan
>> Rarity has no influence on card power.>
>Really?
>
>It definetly used to have influence...
>More clearly in That Other Cardgame[tm], but also in Jyhad.
I'm kind of bored. Various thoughts -
Conquer the Beast and Murder of Crows - The former has never been considered a
particularly powerful card and the latter makes sense as being rarer than Wolf
Companion (an uncommon right?).
Psychic Projection and Telepathic Vote Counting - No one plays the former and
the latter is ... isn't it the only pure Auspex card in the game that affects
voting? It's an out of discipline effect.
Cat Burglary and Distraction - Nonstandard effects for the discipline.
Far Mastery and Kine Dominance - Steal permanents effects, kind of different,
eh?
Day Operation and Freak Drive - I believe Freak Drive was just a mistake in
rarity. At least it was a common rare. Mistakes happen.
Behind You and Psychic Veil - Behind You makes sense as a rare in that it does
something out of the ordinary for the discipline (at least back then).
Fists of Death and Immortal Grapple - IG was a mistake. The power of combat
ends was no doubt not realized in design and development.
Business Pressure and Entrancement - 'nother card that hardly sees play and
'nother ally stealer.
Body of Sun and Flesh of Marble - Would have been fine if Flesh had stayed
rare, like reprinted a R2.
Burst of Sunlight and Magic of the Smith - Okay, neither of these have to be
rare. I don't find it hugely odd, though.
Commons (Jyhad) that I've ranked among the 10 best cards in the game before:
Blood Doll, Minion Tap, Wake, Telepathic Misdirection, Majesty, Deflection.
Ones that get consideration: Govern, Conditioning, Earth Meld, Form of Mist.
There are some Jyhad rares someone might want a bunch of copies of for a
particular, unusual deck, like Vampiric Disease. There's nothing that stands
out as "why the hell did they make that rare?" if you factor things in like
unusualness of effect whether in general or in the card's sphere. Freak Drive
is certainly an unusual effect, for instance.
Power rares are a common issue with CCGs. Doesn't hurt as much with card
limits, of course, and contributes to sales for most games. V:TES has mostly
avoided the problem with Bloodlines rares being an obvious exception.
LSJ wrote:
>
> Not really, no. Garfield learned his lesson from that other
> game.
I completely agree there :)
In Jyhad it seemed he wanted to make sure the most powerful cards were
common :P
(Wake, blood doll, etc.)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <20040710014350...@mb-m25.aol.com>,
cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) mumbled something about:
>>> Rarity has no influence on card power.>>I'm kind of bored. Various thoughts -
>
>Conquer the Beast and Murder of Crows - The former has never been considered a
>particularly powerful card and the latter makes sense as being rarer than Wolf
>Companion (an uncommon right?).
The former is only useful for ANI decks playing Trap-like combat; I
imagine that it was predicted to be used in combos with Flesh of Marble
and one or two Wolf Companions, to whale someone to death while still
giving the option to bail out if things looked nasty.
Murder of Crows actually makes sense as a rare. Consider that the only
reason to play Murder of Crows instead of Wolf Companion is if you need
to do damage at range, right? Wolf Companion's extra life is notable in
a Jyhad-only environment; clearly they expected retainers to be targeted
at range whenever possible.
But think carefully: since you only use Murder of Crows to fight at
range, isn't it likely that someone will most likely target the Murder
with their own ranged strike... probably killing it since it has so
little life?
I believe this is the design thought process that led to Murder's
creation -- and I believe that the same design thought process also
undervalued ranged combat significantly for certain clans. For example,
I could easily see the design team at that time reaching the conclusion:
"why would the Gangrel NOT use Drawing out the Beast/Wolf Companion?
they can just prevent all the damage and hit with Claws, instead of a
measly Aid from Bats." Remember Carrion Crows didn't exist then.
>Psychic Projection and Telepathic Vote Counting - No one plays the former and
>the latter is ... isn't it the only pure Auspex card in the game that affects
>voting? It's an out of discipline effect.
I actually have made decks with the former, though it has been eclipsed
by Christopher Houghton. It's relatively corner-case, but there are
times it's very nice to just give everyone +1 intercept. TVC is a
blatantly out-of-discipline effect, yes.
>Cat Burglary and Distraction - Nonstandard effects for the discipline.
Yep.
>Far Mastery and Kine Dominance - Steal permanents effects, kind of different,
>eh?
Yep.
>Day Operation and Freak Drive - I believe Freak Drive was just a mistake in
>rarity. At least it was a common rare. Mistakes happen.
It wasn't a common rare -- it was almost impossible to get Freak Drives.
I only had 7 to my name until the Camarilla Edition came out, and it was
murder trying to find someone who'd trade them without wanting your
testicles in return.
However, as with Majesty, the design team clearly undervalued the
strength of taking multiple actions. This can be further seen as they
printed more and more 1-caps and 2-caps in later sets that didn't have
some horribly debilitating disadvantage.
>Behind You and Psychic Veil - Behind You makes sense as a rare in that it does
>something out of the ordinary for the discipline (at least back then).
And Psychic Veil makes sense in that you really can't make an effective
"psychic veil only" deck -- you still have to ladle the common stealth
in, or the action will be blocked.
>Fists of Death and Immortal Grapple - IG was a mistake. The power of combat
>ends was no doubt not realized in design and development.
Yep.
>Business Pressure and Entrancement - 'nother card that hardly sees play and
>'nother ally stealer.
Kind of an amusing card when you DO play it though. =)
>Body of Sun and Flesh of Marble - Would have been fine if Flesh had stayed
>rare, like reprinted a R2.
Flesh was uncommon in the original set, although a 'rare uncommon'.
It's a staple card, though; it's a good thing that it WAS reprinted.
>Burst of Sunlight and Magic of the Smith - Okay, neither of these have to be
>rare. I don't find it hugely odd, though.
Not that easy to prevent a single point of agg for the Tremere in
Jyhad-only. No Guardian Angel, etc.
Magic of the Smith -- obviously cornercase "kit-up" effect that you want
early on and probably never again.
-- Derek
a host is a host from coast to coast
and no one will talk to a host that's close
unless the host that isn't close
is busy, hung, or dead