Greetings :)
This following idea came about from a conversation with one of my coterie who
saw a player do some thing similar to this with Democritus as opposed to
Stanislava. I haven't checked yet to see if this is covered by errata somehow
though will do that later today... :)
Anyway, wondered what people thought (high possibility that someone has seen
this sort of play before anyway) I also didn't work it out too carefully so
there may well be more efficient ways of making this work, especially in
regards to the ensuring Stanislava gets burned to bring the soul gem effect
into play.
I wondered what the thoughts were on the following series of moves:
Round 3
1) Player brings out Stanislava
Round 4
2) Player places a skill card on Stanislava
3) Player equips Stanislava with a soul gem of Etrius
Round 5
4) Player minion taps Stanislava for 9 (leaving 2)
5) Player recruits renegade garou with Stanislava
6) Garou equips with sengir dagger
Round 6
7) Player recruits renegade garou with Stanislava or bleeds for +2 if no garou
in hand)
8) Player attacks Stanislava with garou (equipped with sengir) and Stanislava
is burned.
(reduced to 0 by 2 hand damage first round, 2 aggravated 2nd strike from
dagger)
9) Players replaces Stanislava with another Stanislava from crypt
(the only vampire they have in the crypt, and whom is 1 less than
soul-gem'd Stanislava due to skill card)
Round 7
10) Player places a skill card on Stanislava
11) Player recruits renegade garou with Stanislava or bleeds for +2 if no
garou in hand)
13) Player attacks Stanislava with garou (equipped with sengir) and Stanislava
is burned.
(reduced to 0 by 2 hand damage first round, 2 aggravated 2nd strike from
dagger)
14) Player replaces Stanislava with another Stanislava from crypt
(the only vampire they have in the crypt and whom is 1 less than
soul-gem'd Stanislava due to skill card)
Round 8
10) Player minion taps Stanislava for 9
11) Player recruits renegade garou with Stanislava or bleeds for +2 if no
garou in hand)
13) Player attacks Stanislava with garou (equipped with sengir) and Stanislava
is burned.
(reduced to 0 by 2 hand damage first round, 2 aggravated 2nd strike from
dagger)
14) Player replaces Stanislava with another Stanislava from crypt
(the only vampire they have in the crypt and whom is 1 less than
soul-gem'd Stanislava due to skill card)
Round 9
15) Player places a skill card on Stanislava
16) Player recruits renegade garou with Stanislava or bleeds for +2 if no
garou in hand)
17) Player attacks Stanislava with garou (equipped with sengir) and Stanislava
is burned.
(reduced to 0 by 2 hand damage first round, 2 aggravated 2nd strike from
dagger)
18) Player replaces Stanislava with another Stanislava from crypt
(the only vampire they have in the crypt and whom is 1 less than
soul-gem'd Stanislava due to skill card)
Round 10
19) Player minion taps Stanislava for 9
20) Player recruits renegade garou with Stanislava or bleeds for +2 if no
garou in hand)
21) Player attacks Stanislava with garou (equipped with sengir) and Stanislava
is burned.
(reduced to 0 by 2 hand damage first round, 2 aggravated 2nd strike from
dagger)
22) Player replaces Stanislava with another Stanislava from crypt
(the only vampire they have in the crypt and whom is 1 less than
soul-gem'd Stanislava due to skill card)
and so on...
Crypt:
12+ Stanislava (however many above 12 you can get :)
Library:
Garou x 20
Minion Tap by 20
Sengir Dagger by 10
(to increase odds of getting it and to assure burning Stanislava, is also a
nice addition
for all the garou's made possible by the blood being tapped off Stanislava)
Soul-Gem Of Etrius by 10
(to increase odds of getting it, also to replace it if it gets stolen or
destroyed somehow)
Any skill card which Stanislava doesn't have at superior x 20
Simidh: V:EKN Prince Of Adelaide
__ __ ,-~_~, __
,-._______.-.___.----------' '--~~ ~~ (___\`, (__ . _ _ . __/ )_
',_.-------._.---.__________ __ ) __)( / ) )( (_/ / )
`--' ~~--~~,(~_~/,' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Email: sim...@vampire.tne.net.au ~---' URL: vampire.tne.net.au
If the above picture looks a jumble, you probably didn't read this
email in a proportional font >;-<=
In article <3839...@news.world-link.com.au>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
Umm, I'm pretty sure that you can't attack your own minions with a
Renegade Garou. However, you can get around this problem by using
Daring the Dawn, or Force of Will to do 2 aggravated damage and burn
her anyway.
Justicar.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Justicar wrote:
> Umm, I'm pretty sure that you can't attack your own minions with a
> Renegade Garou. However, you can get around this problem by using
> Daring the Dawn, or Force of Will to do 2 aggravated damage and burn
> her anyway.
You can never have two minions you control in combat together. You cannot
initiate an action to do such and, should you ever find yourself in that
situation (e.g. getting them via some form of control transfer mid
combat), the combat is immediately aborted.
--
James Coupe
In article <81dhe1$dcl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Justicar <just...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Umm, I'm pretty sure that you can't attack your own minions with a
> Renegade Garou. However, you can get around this problem by using
> Daring the Dawn, or Force of Will to do 2 aggravated damage and burn
> her anyway.
>
Specifically, if I'm not mistaken, you may never take a directed action
against yourself. As Renegade Garou's ability is a directed action, it
may not attack your own minions.
-Korric
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe wrote:
>
> On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Justicar wrote:
> > Umm, I'm pretty sure that you can't attack your own minions with a
> > Renegade Garou. However, you can get around this problem by using
> > Daring the Dawn, or Force of Will to do 2 aggravated damage and burn
> > her anyway.
>> You can never have two minions you control in combat together. You cannot
> initiate an action to do such and, should you ever find yourself in that
> situation (e.g. getting them via some form of control transfer mid
> combat), the combat is immediately aborted.
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp
On Tue, 23 Nov 1999 kor...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Specifically, if I'm not mistaken, you may never take a directed action
> against yourself. As Renegade Garou's ability is a directed action, it
> may not attack your own minions.
That used to be the case but the ruling stating such was over-turned.
Any (D) action you take can, by default, only be blocked by the Methuselah
it is aimed at (Eagle's Sight, Anneke etc. not withstanding). If the (D)
action is aimed at you, your prey and then your predator get the chance to
block as normal.
Hence, if I am playing a Graverobbing deck, I might put a Haven Uncovered
on your copy of Etrius. I rush Etrius, torporise him and then graverob
him (bringing him to the active region). Etrius *can* then take the
action to burn the Haven Uncovered - I control the Haven so the action is
"against" me. My prey, and then my predator, then both have the option to
block the burning of the action. (A slightly silly example, perhaps,
given that you might choose not to use Havens in such a deck - but if you
did, hoping to, say, wear down persisent use of Majesty, this would work
as stated.)
--
James Coupe
kor...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <81dhe1$dcl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,> Justicar <just...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > Umm, I'm pretty sure that you can't attack your own minions with a
> > Renegade Garou. However, you can get around this problem by using
> > Daring the Dawn, or Force of Will to do 2 aggravated damage and burn
> > her anyway.
>> Specifically, if I'm not mistaken, you may never take a directed action
> against yourself. As Renegade Garou's ability is a directed action, it
> may not attack your own minions.
Actually, actions are directed or undirected based on their target,
not the other way around. [6.2.2.1]
That is, you have to figure out the target before the action can be
directed.
So, while it is true that you can never take a directed action against
yourself, that is merely because *any* action you take against yourself
is not directed by definition.
The presence (or absence) of a (D) symbol does not affect the available
targets, nor does it determine the directedness of the action.
For instance, you can take a Cryptic Mission action against a retainer
employed by one of your own minions (Charnas the Imp, for example), since
card text on Cryptic Mission doesn't limit your choice of targets: "...
any ally or retainer."
The (D) symbol is used only to indicate that an action is *typically*
directed (that is, typically taken against another Methuselah or
against cards controller by another Methuselah). [6.2.2.1] But it does
not, in itself, prevent you from taking the action against yourself
(which would be an undirected action).
Beyond that (D) symbol and directed stuff, however, there are some
other pertinent rules:
A minion cannot bleed his controller. [6.1.1]
Two minions with the same controller can't enter combat with each other. [6.4]
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <81dhe1$dcl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Justicar <just...@my-deja.com> wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]>Umm, I'm pretty sure that you can't attack your own minions with a
>Renegade Garou. However, you can get around this problem by using
>Daring the Dawn, or Force of Will to do 2 aggravated damage and burn
>her anyway.
>>Justicar.>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Okay, I stuffed up on the idea of the attacking your own minion with another
(though I thought it was allowed in the case of diablerie at least). (i
shouldn't post at 3am ;) The main point of the concept though wasn't centred
on the attacking of the minion via the garou so much as the idea of repeatedly
bringing out stanislava with the soul gem with her being burned by whatever
means possible. It seemed to lend itself to a way of looping a method of
gaining pool that I wondered about being legal?
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 05:48:59 GMT, sim...@vampire.tne.net.au (Simidh)
wrote:
>Okay, I stuffed up on the idea of the attacking your own minion with another
>(though I thought it was allowed in the case of diablerie at least). (i
>shouldn't post at 3am ;) The main point of the concept though wasn't centred
>on the attacking of the minion via the garou so much as the idea of repeatedly
>bringing out stanislava with the soul gem with her being burned by whatever
>means possible. It seemed to lend itself to a way of looping a method of
>gaining pool that I wondered about being legal?
Perfectly legal - much tougher than you think, unless you do it with
Anson. Fortitude master on Anson, THEN minion tap him for 6, THEN he
Legal Manips with Daring the Dawn + Aire of Elation so he burns. Next
turn, lather, rinse, repeat. With Stanislava, this can't happen every
turn - you can't slap the master card on her, so she's not older than
the vampire in the crypt.
Also, you have to get the Soul Gem out early on, which Magic of the
Smith can do (reducing the number of actual real Soul Gems you have to
have), but then you run into the only-one-master problem again since
Anson doesn't have thaumaturgy...
There's always the Spiridonas deck, in which he Magics the first Gem,
then when he bleeds he burns all his blood for +bleed. But when you
get Deflected it kinda sucks, and any "hose any one vampire" deck
tends to... well... you get the idea. :)
in summary: Legal? Yes. Easy to pull off? ...no. =)
-- Derek
PEACE, n. In international affairs, a period of cheating
between two periods of fighting.
Then is the combo Goth Band/Dreams of the Sphinx valid?
I Have the Band in play, Dreams of the Sphinx and say a short-term
investment...
Can i use Goth Band ability to take away one counter of the Dreams, put
it on the Investment...giving me a (kinda) permanent Dreams as well as a
permanent Short-term Investment???
P.
pierre rebstock <por...@soton.ac.uk> wrote:
> Then is the combo Goth Band/Dreams of the Sphinx valid?
No. Goth Band has ruling/clarification/errata that says it can't move
counters between two cards it's controller owns.
--
--
for more info msaari
finger msa...@cc.jyu.fi @jyu.fi
225 "was ist ist / was nicht ist ist möglich" -e.n.
On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Derek S. Ray wrote:
> Perfectly legal - much tougher than you think, unless you do it with
> Anson. Fortitude master on Anson, THEN minion tap him for 6, THEN he
> Legal Manips with Daring the Dawn + Aire of Elation so he burns. Next
> turn, lather, rinse, repeat. With Stanislava, this can't happen every
> turn - you can't slap the master card on her, so she's not older than
> the vampire in the crypt.
Actually, it is also possible with the Lasombra, using Camarilla Vitae
Slave, though just as problematic. (First used by Chris Berger, I
believe.)
--
James Coupe
On 24 Nov 1999, Mikko Saari wrote:
> pierre rebstock <por...@soton.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Then is the combo Goth Band/Dreams of the Sphinx valid?
>
> No. Goth Band has ruling/clarification/errata that says it can't move
> counters between two cards it's controller owns.
(Addition, not correction.)
...because when it was created that's how (D) actions worked. The errata
is, therefore, there not to scupper the card but preserve its intent.
--
James Coupe
And another way --
A deck involving a lot of Amaranth cards
and a single big voting vamp (I'm partial to Lambach)
can Minion Tap all but two blood from the big guy,
equip with the Soul Gem. On the next turn, you
apply a Protean skill card, attack with some form of
agg damage, then Amaranth the torpor-ed vamp.
You then call the Blood Hunt on yourself,
hopefully winning with your static vote power (heh,
hopefully...), and burning your hungry vote monster.
...rinse, repeat.
-Matt