expansion ideas

I was thinking about the upcoming expansion and if I could think up some new ideas on the game for future expansions. Apart from new clans, or ones that haven't been used yet from white wolf, or additional cards for clans like ravnos or assamite, I haven't seen anything really new. I don't mean completely new ofcourse, but something I haven't mentioned in the above. Personally, I'd like to see some more of the lupines. Not simply as allys, but more as a type of clan, or group. The person playing the lupines would not be a Methuselah, but an old lupine himself, with toughness points instead of blood counters. The lupine-minions would be partly human, so I was thinking perhaps somekind of 'flip-over' card with counters to indicate when the lupine, or human is about to shapeshift. Additional rules have to be thougth up ofcourse, but I think it could be fun. carpe noctem,

In article <36D51F...@wxs.nl>, [ quoted text not captured ] Ahem, you know that there is a game called "rage" that does (almost) exactly what you propose? IMO, introducing a new "faction" is a bad thing. The mechanis of VTES are simply not suitable for that kind of thing. Carl -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

>I was thinking about the upcoming expansion and if I could think up some >new ideas on the game for future expansions. Apart from new clans, or >ones that haven't been used yet from white wolf, or additional cards for >clans like ravnos or assamite, I haven't seen anything really new. >I don't mean completely new ofcourse, but something I haven't mentioned >in the above. >Personally, I'd like to see some more of the lupines. Not simply as >allys, but more as a type of clan, or group. The person playing the >lupines would not be a Methuselah, but an old lupine himself, with >toughness points instead of blood counters. This is a VAMPIRE game.... not Werewolf... there's already a relatively balanced representation of the other WW games systems in V:tES and there doesn't need to be anymore (I think 3 garou in the game is enough since for the most part the Kindred spend more time dodging them than making them allies) >The lupine-minions would be partly human, so I was thinking perhaps >somekind of 'flip-over' card with counters to indicate when the lupine, >or human is about to shapeshift. Additional rules have to be thougth up >ofcourse, but I think it could be fun. >carpe noctem, Ummm... go play Rage. You'll never find "flip-over" cards in this game because it would give you a slight advantage of knowing where it's at. You've even described most of Rage's system as it is, go play that if you're so intent on having the all important garou. Incidentally, no-one must be reading the posts that it will be in all likelihood more of a "promo" type expansion of very few cards. We don't need to be adding a whole new set of rules for a small select set of cards. Vince

In article <7b4acs$gre@simba>, Vince Johnson <john...@tcnj.edu> writes >Incidentally, no-one must be reading the posts that it will be in all >likelihood more of a "promo" type expansion of very few cards. We don't >need to be adding a whole new set of rules for a small select set of cards. And you must be failing to read the posts where WotC (and subsidiary) employees have been reported as stating exactly the opposite ie large- ish (40-50 minimum) print run and sold through stores. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net http://www.obeah.demon.co.uk

In article <n+h6nRAh...@obeah.demon.co.uk>, James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote: > In article <7b4acs$gre@simba>, Vince Johnson <john...@tcnj.edu> writes > >Incidentally, no-one must be reading the posts that it will be in all > >likelihood more of a "promo" type expansion of very few cards. We don't > >need to be adding a whole new set of rules for a small select set of cards. > > And you must be failing to read the posts where WotC (and subsidiary) > employees have been reported as stating exactly the opposite ie large- > ish (40-50 minimum) print run and sold through stores. James, I seem to have missed that post, too. Could you please post that again, for the convenience of us all? :) Furthermore, is this really confirmed? Carl (VEKN Prince of Vienna) [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <7b5hij$hdo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at wrote: > In article <n+h6nRAh...@obeah.demon.co.uk>, > James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > And you must be failing to read the posts where WotC (and subsidiary) > > employees have been reported as stating exactly the opposite ie large- > > ish (40-50 minimum) print run and sold through stores. > > James, I seem to have missed that post, too. Could you please post that > again, for the convenience of us all? :) > Furthermore, is this really confirmed? Assuming James is correct, let's say there are 50 cards. Our first goal has got to be flushing out the newer clans. The first place to do that is with vampires: 3 Ravnos 3 Giovanni 5 Assamites 5 Followers of Set 5 Lasombra 5 Tzimisce 5 Malkavian Antitribu 3 City Gangrel Antitribu (Pro, Obf, Cel) That's 34 cards there, leaving 16 of our 50. If you give each of the unique disciplines of the above 2 new cards, you're down to 2 cards remaining. With those two cards, I'd like to see something give a card for joining a sect of choice (Declaration of Alignment equipment?) and a card that gives some inter-sect interaction fun of some type. As much as I like library cards, we really need to go with vampires first. If I remember right, someone said that this is goign to be a yearly type thing. So in 2000, maybe we can see a mini-expansion of all library cards. Mike -- Mike Bohlmann, MAIP - Prince of Urbana-Champaign http://www.shout.net/~mbohlman/ [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <ve...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:n+h6nRAh...@obeah.demon.co.uk... >In article <7b4acs$gre@simba>, Vince Johnson <john...@tcnj.edu> writes >>Incidentally, no-one must be reading the posts that it will be in all >>likelihood more of a "promo" type expansion of very few cards. We don't >>need to be adding a whole new set of rules for a small select set of cards. > >And you must be failing to read the posts where WotC (and subsidiary) >employees have been reported as stating exactly the opposite ie large- >ish (40-50 minimum) print run and sold through stores. > >-- Comparitive to other expansions that WotC releases for it's other games, this is a promo or filler set, especially for Vampire. Not that I mind this so much. I'm hoping though they realize that smaller, cheaper boxes and sets, will probably influence more people to play. Also I was refering to the rules system and they have not made significant rules changes to the game except in the larger sets like V:tES and Sabbat releases. I have been reading the posts, nothing is set in stone from everything I've heard and there's a lot of time between now and the end of the year when this expansion is supposed to be released. I've heard as large as 90 cards in the set to as small as a 2 dozen(with the smaller end being highly reinforced). They may even find, between now and then, that they want to release a full expansion or even forget the idea all together, and they don't have anything going to print as far as I know at this moment. Vince

I think a good expansion would be one with only or mainly vampires because there are really enough library cards for choice. But to get new ideas for a nice deck you are in need for a good and sufficient variety of Vampires! This is especially true for the newest clans. Regards, Marco.

In article <7b6bup$7li$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <mboh...@shout.net> wrote: >3 Ravnos >3 Giovanni >5 Assamites >5 Followers of Set >5 Lasombra >5 Tzimisce >5 Malkavian Antitribu >3 City Gangrel Antitribu (Pro, Obf, Cel) > >That's 34 cards there, leaving 16 of our 50. If you give each of the That's exactly what we need. I hope the relavent people are listening. -- /\ Jasper Phillips /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--. * http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`

In article <7b5hij$hdo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at writes >James, I seem to have missed that post, too. Could you please post that >again, for the convenience of us all? :) >Furthermore, is this really confirmed? I'll dig out the post I wrote a while back but confirmed = no. The only time it'll be confirmed one way or the other is when it's actually being distributed. But UK WotC/RPGA reps have said that it should be the same size as the Spellfire one, which could not work at 20 cards, and 40-50 is more likely. It's also possibly being distributed in a three different boosters in one box layout (eg 10 Netrunner boosters, 10 Spellfire, 10 V:TES) And we're most probably talking about stores. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <7b6hq1$nj6$1...@news.dnsg.net>, [ quoted text not captured ] Right to the point. I hope the others will see it that way, too. Carl (VEKN Prince of Vienna) PS: Marco, ist die e-mail adresse korrekt? Ich meine, ich habe versucht Dich anzumailen, und hab nur eine Fehlermeldung bekommen. Meine ist Carl.Pi...@at.ccmail.philips.com [ quoted text not captured ]

CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at a écrit dans le message <7bdcie$q2i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... >In article <7b6hq1$nj6$1...@news.dnsg.net>, > "Marco" <man...@primus-online.de> wrote: >> I think a good expansion would be one with only or mainly vampires because >> there are really enough library cards for choice. But to get new ideas for a >> nice deck you are in need for a good and sufficient variety of Vampires! >> This is especially true for the newest clans. > >Right to the point. I hope the others will see it that way, too. > >Carl >(VEKN Prince of Vienna) Yeah! New vampires (with reasonable blood points capacity: no more than 7) that have nice game text would definately be a good addition to the game. Some examples from existing vampires that have a good game text: Lazar Dobrescu (Ravnos, cap. 3), as a D action he transfers a blood point from a vampire in the prey's uncontrolled region to yours. :) That's good, even in a Gangrel, Ventrue or any Fortitude deck. Carlotta Giovanni (Giovanni, cap. 7), as a +1 stealth action that costs her a blood point, she can replace a card from your hand to one from the ash heap. Let's Return to Innocence .... again? :) ------------------------------ Now, what I would like to see is the Talbot (Brujah?, Giovanni? Nosferatu?...) from Talbot's Chainsaw! Maybe in the game text of that vampire it could be written that: If Talbot is equipped with Talbot's Chainsaw he have not to deal 3 damage to one of your minion at your untap phase and he may hunt normally. Or Ruthor (Tremere with Fortitude and major Thaumaturgy?...) from Rutor's Hand! -1 hand damage until he plays a Ruthor's Hand. Ruthor's Hand game text is doubled for him. +1 damage to Thaumaturgy strikes. Or a Follower of Set (generation 5) that adds a counter to any Serpentis or Setite action just played by him?

In article <7blmp8$fl9$1...@news.quebectel.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] A Gangrel, or possibly Gangrel antitribu, according to the Sabbat Storyteller's book. > Maybe in the game text of that vampire it could be written that: If Talbot > is equipped with Talbot's Chainsaw he have not to deal 3 damage to one of > your minion at your untap phase and he may hunt normally. Either that or may search your deck to find Talbot's chainsaw [text template from Arms Dealer]. I think that would be better. The story-telling point of the chainsaw is that Talbot went postal with it. > > Or Ruthor (Tremere with Fortitude and major Thaumaturgy?...) from Rutor's > Hand! > -1 hand damage until he plays a Ruthor's Hand. Ruthor's Hand game text is > doubled for him. +1 damage to Thaumaturgy strikes. > > Or a Follower of Set (generation 5) that adds a counter to any Serpentis or > Setite action just played by him? > Or that adds a counter to any card requiring followers of Set or Serpentis. But dream on on that one, soul-sister - you and i are DEFINITELY going to be in a minority of 2 as regards the balance of that one! [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:39:01 GMT, legb...@my-dejanews.com wrote: >> Or Ruthor (Tremere with Fortitude and major Thaumaturgy?...) from Rutor's >> Hand! >> -1 hand damage until he plays a Ruthor's Hand. Ruthor's Hand game text is >> doubled for him. +1 damage to Thaumaturgy strikes. >> >> Or a Follower of Set (generation 5) that adds a counter to any Serpentis or >> Setite action just played by him? >> > >Or that adds a counter to any card requiring followers of Set or Serpentis. >But dream on on that one, soul-sister - you and i are DEFINITELY going to be >in a minority of 2 as regards the balance of that one! The weenie Embrace + 30 Corruption deck is pretty effective already, even WITHOUT a 5-cap who can Embrace twice and then start Corrupting for 2 each turn. =) He'd have to come without any Obfuscate, just as a natural form of balance. =) -- Derek (replying by email? remove the nospam from my domain :)

Some other card ideas that I've had: A master card that allows you to play a unique MC that's already in play. Brujah retainer-The Cold Dawn A MC that cancels a unique MC already in play ie:kinda like sudden reverse that Millicent Smith after it's in play

[ quoted text not captured ] > Maybe in the game text of that vampire it could be written that: If Talbot > is equipped with Talbot's Chainsaw he have not to deal 3 damage to one of > your minion at your untap phase and he may hunt normally. > > Or Ruthor (Tremere with Fortitude and major Thaumaturgy?...) from Rutor's > Hand! > -1 hand damage until he plays a Ruthor's Hand. Ruthor's Hand game text is > doubled for him. +1 damage to Thaumaturgy strikes. > > Or a Follower of Set (generation 5) that adds a counter to any Serpentis or > Setite action just played by him? Nice ideas. How about this Herbert Schwedt, Master Impersonator Ravnos, cap 4, CHI Non-Camarilla. If Herbert comes into the active region, search your hand, ash heap or library for up two skill-cards and put them on him. If Herbert becomes uncontrolled, burn all skill-cards on him. I'd think of him as the guy who always changes his appearance and tricks all the other vampires. :) Carl (VEKN Prince of Vienna) -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <7bntdp$v97$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at writes >Herbert Schwedt, Master Impersonator >Ravnos, cap 4, CHI >Non-Camarilla. If Herbert comes into the active region, search your hand, >ash heap or library for up two skill-cards and put them on him. If Herbert >becomes uncontrolled, burn all skill-cards on him. > >I'd think of him as the guy who always changes his appearance and tricks >all the other vampires. :) And, unfortunately, has the ability to do absolutely horrendous Soul Gem combos. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <rY9CQDAL...@obeah.demon.co.uk>, James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote: > In article <7bntdp$v97$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, CPilh...@bhak12.ac.at > writes > >Herbert Schwedt, Master Impersonator > >Ravnos, cap 4, CHI > >Non-Camarilla. If Herbert comes into the active region, search your hand, > >ash heap or library for up two skill-cards and put them on him. If Herbert > >becomes uncontrolled, burn all skill-cards on him. > > > >I'd think of him as the guy who always changes his appearance and tricks > >all the other vampires. :) > > And, unfortunately, has the ability to do absolutely horrendous Soul Gem > combos. I don't think that he is ripe for abuse. Of course, I can't think of every possibility, but who can anyway? :) In Herbert Schwedt's case, you save 2 pool when you bring him out, though he wouldn't be at full capacity. He would then be cap.6 with either 2 skills superior, or 1 sup. and 2 normal. If the new disciplines were in-clan, then he would be overpriced for 1 or 2 points according to Sabbat template, and 2 points if they were out-of-clan. His biggest advantage is that you can bring him for 4, where he is effectively a 6cap. But that's all, from there on he is a bit weak. He has an edge against Banishments or Peace of Khetamons. Soul Gem combos? Would you do it with a 6cap vamp, who only has CHI and one other sup discipline? Ok, you could make your crypt up entirely of Herbert Schwedt's. You would always be able to bring the next vamp into your active region. And? You have ever only 1 vamp. That's a big disadvantage! Another thing would be Mind Rape. You bring Herbert out (with DOM) and in your next turn you rob a vampire (cause Herbert is 2 older than any other vamp could be at this time). Additionally, Herbert has CHI, which has some stealth. Nice combo, but worth the effort? I doubt it. Return to Innocence? Hm, too low capacity as that it would pay off. ;) Now, it's your turn. Show me a deck that really abuses him. Would be nice if you'd make the effort and *really* playtest it! :) Post the deck then, please. Thanks [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <7c0fqp$sub$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <carl.pi...@at.ccmail.philips.com> wrote: > >I don't think that he is ripe for abuse. Of course, I can't think of every >possibility, but who can anyway? :) > >In Herbert Schwedt's case, you save 2 pool when you bring him out, though >he wouldn't be at full capacity. He would then be cap.6 with either 2 skills >superior, or 1 sup. and 2 normal. If the new disciplines were in-clan, then >he would be overpriced for 1 or 2 points according to Sabbat template, and >2 points if they were out-of-clan. His biggest advantage is that you can >bring him for 4, where he is effectively a 6cap. But that's all, from >there on he is a bit weak. He has an edge against Banishments or Peace >of Khetamons. Soul Gem combos? Would you do it with a 6cap vamp, who only >has CHI and one other sup discipline? Geez, talk about straw men. Yah, the vamp in question doesn't compare well to 6 capacity vampires, ability wise -- but then again there aren't many 4 capacity vampires that do! Now, back up, and compare him to most 4 capacity vampires. "Herbert" is definitly underpriced. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 08 Mar 1999 12:29:20 GMT, carl.pi...@at.ccmail.philips.com wrote: >> And, unfortunately, has the ability to do absolutely horrendous Soul Gem >> combos. > >I don't think that he is ripe for abuse. Of course, I can't think of every >possibility, but who can anyway? :) Heh. Since you automatically make him older when he comes out, a crypt full of Herberts doesn't even require individual turns spent putting Master cards on him. And since you can fetch them from the ash heap, you never have to worry about it. >of Khetamons. Soul Gem combos? Would you do it with a 6cap vamp, who only >has CHI and one other sup discipline? Hell yeah. Watch below. >Ok, you could make your crypt up entirely of Herbert Schwedt's. You would >always be able to bring the next vamp into your active region. And? You >have ever only 1 vamp. That's a big disadvantage! No, since you only spent 4 pool for him, you have a much bigger "buffer" to use for defense than you normally would. Unless you're playing a BIG bleed deck, it takes awhile to get through 26 pool. even with a BIG bleed deck, it don't go quickly - 3 turns assuming you successfully bleed for 12 each turn. >Now, it's your turn. Show me a deck that really abuses him. Would >be nice if you'd make the effort and *really* playtest it! :) >Post the deck then, please. Right. Bring Herbie out. Slap Dominate and Fortitude on him - you only need 1 card of each in your deck since you may search your library. On turn two, he equips the Soul Gem of Etrius. Turn three is where he really gets rolling. First thing you do is Sensory Deprivation your prey's vampire. Use Fata Morgana to get the +1 stealth for it. If your prey has no vampires, hit your predator. This leaves Herbie with 1 blood and tapped. Since he has Fortitude, he now takes a Force of Will action to bleed. Modify with another token Dominate card, and if anyone wants to block you, slap Daring the Dawn on it (although the 2 agg from Force of Will is going to burn him anyway, satisfying the Soul Gem's requirements.) Burn Herbie at the conclusion of the action - bring out a new Herbie, who automatically gets the two skill cards and the Gem. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Since Herbie is still in play, the Sensory Deprivation cards stay in effect, I believe? Hmm. they might not. If that doesn't work, hafta come up with another nifty action first to scrape all the blood off of him. But Fortitude and specifically Force of Will is ever so convenient for causing agg damage to yourself if you need to burn a vampire... Salbatore Bokkengro (4 cap, CHI for pro) would also work for this deck, come to think of it. But he would rely a lot more on having 10 Dominate skill cards handy since you can't fish them back out the same way as Herbie. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <202058463881B15C.E22F1BC9D22E9DE5.20CACCCFDCA335D2@library- proxy.airnews.net>, lor...@nospam.nineball.org (Derek S. Ray) wrote: > On Mon, 08 Mar 1999 12:29:20 GMT, carl.pi...@at.ccmail.philips.com > wrote: > > >> And, unfortunately, has the ability to do absolutely horrendous Soul Gem > >> combos. > > > >I don't think that he is ripe for abuse. Of course, I can't think of every > >possibility, but who can anyway? :) > > Heh. Since you automatically make him older when he comes out, a > crypt full of Herberts doesn't even require individual turns spent > putting Master cards on him. And since you can fetch them from the > ash heap, you never have to worry about it. Ok, you have a point here. So would it be better to make him cap5 and get only 1 skill card free, or to simply say that he can only take skill cards from your library or hand? > > >of Khetamons. Soul Gem combos? Would you do it with a 6cap vamp, who only > >has CHI and one other sup discipline? > > Hell yeah. Watch below. > > >Ok, you could make your crypt up entirely of Herbert Schwedt's. You would > >always be able to bring the next vamp into your active region. And? You > >have ever only 1 vamp. That's a big disadvantage! > > No, since you only spent 4 pool for him, you have a much bigger > "buffer" to use for defense than you normally would. Unless you're > playing a BIG bleed deck, it takes awhile to get through 26 pool. > even with a BIG bleed deck, it don't go quickly - 3 turns assuming you > successfully bleed for 12 each turn. I still believe that one vamp only is *no* defence even against a decent bleed deck. It just takes one or two turns longer. With only Herbert and the Soul Gem, there is no pool gaining! i.e. in a few turns you are out of the game, no matter what you do. > >Now, it's your turn. Show me a deck that really abuses him. Would > >be nice if you'd make the effort and *really* playtest it! :) > >Post the deck then, please. > > Right. Bring Herbie out. Slap Dominate and Fortitude on him - you > only need 1 card of each in your deck since you may search your > library. On turn two, he equips the Soul Gem of Etrius. Turn three > is where he really gets rolling. First thing you do is Sensory > Deprivation your prey's vampire. Use Fata Morgana to get the +1 > stealth for it. If your prey has no vampires, hit your predator. > This leaves Herbie with 1 blood and tapped. Since he has Fortitude, > he now takes a Force of Will action to bleed. Modify with another > token Dominate card, and if anyone wants to block you, slap Daring the > Dawn on it (although the 2 agg from Force of Will is going to burn him > anyway, satisfying the Soul Gem's requirements.) Burn Herbie at the > conclusion of the action - bring out a new Herbie, who automatically > gets the two skill cards and the Gem. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Since > Herbie is still in play, the Sensory Deprivation cards stay in effect, > I believe? Hmm. they might not. I don't think they stay in play, as Herbert is burned, effectively. Right, LSJ? > If that doesn't work, hafta come up > with another nifty action first to scrape all the blood off of him. > But Fortitude and specifically Force of Will is ever so convenient for > causing agg damage to yourself if you need to burn a vampire... > Salbatore Bokkengro (4 cap, CHI for pro) would also work for this > deck, come to think of it. But he would rely a lot more on having 10 > Dominate skill cards handy since you can't fish them back out the same > way as Herbie. So the problem is fishing back the skill cards from the ash heap? [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 09 Mar 1999 06:52:39 GMT, carl_pi...@my-dejanews.com wrote: >> >Ok, you could make your crypt up entirely of Herbert Schwedt's. You would >> >always be able to bring the next vamp into your active region. And? You >> >have ever only 1 vamp. That's a big disadvantage! >> >> No, since you only spent 4 pool for him, you have a much bigger >> "buffer" to use for defense than you normally would. Unless you're >> playing a BIG bleed deck, it takes awhile to get through 26 pool. >> even with a BIG bleed deck, it don't go quickly - 3 turns assuming you >> successfully bleed for 12 each turn. > >I still believe that one vamp only is *no* defence even against a decent >bleed deck. It just takes one or two turns longer. With only Herbert and >the Soul Gem, there is no pool gaining! i.e. in a few turns you are out >of the game, no matter what you do. Since Herbie has Dominate and comes out of your crypt untapped due to the Soul Gem thingy, you may also use about 10 Deflections in your deck, which even at the slow slow rate of one bounce per turn will put a big crimp in any BIG-bleed deck's style, and also potentially move Herbie's deck a lot faster. Bouncing one good bleed for 5 or 6 per turn will make your predator pull his hair out and your prey want to help pull your predator's hair out. Add 10 Wakes and Herbie can potentially Deflect an awful lot - but you risk hand jamming on Wakes since Herbie isn't going to be tapped much unless someone packs Misdirections. (And he has to forgo some Sensory Deprivations if he spends blood Deflecting, but at 3 blood he only has to play Force of Will and Daring the Dawn to guarantee his own burning (1 blood to play FoW, 2 agg from FoW, 2 agg from DtD - with only 2 blood left, he burns.) Besides, I'll trade a Sense Dep for a bleed-my-prey-for-6 most days.) >> gets the two skill cards and the Gem. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Since >> Herbie is still in play, the Sensory Deprivation cards stay in effect, >> I believe? Hmm. they might not. > >I don't think they stay in play, as Herbert is burned, effectively. >Right, LSJ? The Sensory Deprivation card reads "(S) As above, but a vampire may be chosen; he or she does not untap during the untap phase as long as the acting vampire remains in play." This wording is slightly ambiguous since it doesn't use the more-useful template that it could: "Place this card on that vampire. That vampire does not untap during the untap phase. Burn this card if the acting vampire is removed from play." I'd like to see it read "if the acting vampire leaves the ready region", myself, but that's another story entirely ;) Herbie definitely leaves play when he is burned from agg damage. I think the real question is, is it the same Herbie who comes back, or Herbie II: Electric Boogaloo? Other instances, I believe, have ruled that it's a different vampire who comes back, so this would make that trick useless. Bugger ;) >> Salbatore Bokkengro (4 cap, CHI for pro) would also work for this >> deck, come to think of it. But he would rely a lot more on having 10 >> Dominate skill cards handy since you can't fish them back out the same >> way as Herbie. > >So the problem is fishing back the skill cards from the ash heap? The problem is a 'build your own' vampire, really. Ian Forrestal has a HIDEOUSLY overpowered special ability, but nobody really worries about it too much because he costs 8 to bring out in the first place - with no special help he usually will take 3 turns to bring out, and 22 pool is only 2 turns for a monster bleed deck. The natural disadvantages of big vamps eventually catch up with him, making him good, but not TOO good. Or at least I've never seen anyone successfully abuse him yet, and someone in our group who shall remain nameless but owns approx. 438 freak drives (i know you're reading this, so :P to you) has been trying for quite some time... and while he's produced effective decks, it's been nothing that anyone would look at and go "oh, ghod, Ian is broken, he must be errata'd at once." Herbie's cost of 4, though, qualifies him as a borderline weenie - max of 2 turns to bring out and a 40% chance that you'll get him immediately. Guaranteed to get him out before your predator can get moving TOO fast. His access to superior Sensory Deprivation is pretty scary in and of itself, and to permit essentially a free pick of any two disciplines to best back up that card... ick. He'd be a fine adjunct to a weenie deck - pack on enough Recruitments, and let Herbie Sense Dep anything that looks like a problem, Restore himself inbetween 'problems' (with superior FOR, gaining 3 blood to match the cost of SD, and god forbid he should Force of Will and Regeneration himself while in torpor, gaining 5 blood.).... Just icky. Salbatore can't work that fast because he needs FOR cards and has to draw them up, meaning you may hand jam on FOR cards. Although... hmm. weenie horde bleed with Fortitude and a pile of Skin of Rock? (*ponders*) nah. take too many skin of rocks to make them survive and if nobody blocks you, hand jam. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <AC72958B4001B3A9.F84E54D9985C89C1.1792E16755DED0D9@library- proxy.airnews.net>, lor...@nospam.nineball.org (Derek S. Ray) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Ian's ability is not overpowered. Believe me, during Sabbat playtesting I tried again and again to break him; I didn't succeed. Initially he was cap.7, after much arguing he was raised to 8. I think that's ok. The natural > disadvantages of big vamps eventually catch up with him, making him > good, but not TOO good. Or at least I've never seen anyone > successfully abuse him yet, and someone in our group who shall remain > nameless but owns approx. 438 freak drives (i know you're reading > this, so :P to you) has been trying for quite some time... and while > he's produced effective decks, it's been nothing that anyone would > look at and go "oh, ghod, Ian is broken, he must be errata'd at once." > > Herbie's cost of 4, though, qualifies him as a borderline weenie - max > of 2 turns to bring out and a 40% chance that you'll get him > immediately. So should he be cap.5 ? Would it make any difference? Or ani and chi instead of CHI? > Guaranteed to get him out before your predator can get > moving TOO fast. His access to superior Sensory Deprivation is pretty > scary in and of itself, and to permit essentially a free pick of any > two disciplines to best back up that card... ick. Bah! I thought chimerstry is not a useful discipline? At least, that's what most players say. Sensory deprivation is at 0 stealth. One Fata Morgana won't do you much good. Chances that either your pred or prey play at least a deck with *some* intercept are quite good. So Herbert won't bring Sens. Depr. through all the time (if ever). Most people go to lengths trying to kill vamps with CHI, just because of Sens.Depr., also your grand prey or predator. > He'd be a fine > adjunct to a weenie deck - pack on enough Recruitments, and let Herbie > Sense Dep anything that looks like a problem, Restore himself > inbetween 'problems' (with superior FOR, gaining 3 blood to match the > cost of SD, and god forbid he should Force of Will and Regeneration > himself while in torpor, gaining 5 blood.).... Just icky. Salbatore > can't work that fast because he needs FOR cards and has to draw them > up, meaning you may hand jam on FOR cards. Although... hmm. weenie > horde bleed with Fortitude and a pile of Skin of Rock? (*ponders*) > nah. take too many skin of rocks to make them survive and if nobody > blocks you, hand jam. [ quoted text not captured ]

carl_pi...@my-dejanews.com wrote: > Ok, you have a point here. So would it be better to make him cap5 and get > only 1 skill card free, or to simply say that he can only take skill > cards from your library or hand? *shrug* So it takes an Info Highway or a Dreams to get him out in one turn... The extra blood could actually be a big advantage...the difference between Conditioning and Bonding. As for "library or hand", that's not a huge restriction depending on deck design. > I still believe that one vamp only is *no* defence even against a decent > bleed deck. It just takes one or two turns longer. With only Herbert and > the Soul Gem, there is no pool gaining! i.e. in a few turns you are out > of the game, no matter what you do. I think that you're missing the point that once Herbert is in play with the Soul Gem, say turn 3, you can conceivably continuously play until you oust the table. For example: Sensory Dep (or other high blood costing action) Bleed with Force of Will Burn New Herbert comes out and dig for Discipline cards Sensory Dep Bleed with Force of Will Burn ...and so forth. You're also missing the point that the best defense is a superior offense. If you can oust the table on turn 3, you don't have to concern yourself with defense. > > Since > > Herbie is still in play, the Sensory Deprivation cards stay in effect, > > I believe? Hmm. they might not. > > I don't think they stay in play, as Herbert is burned, effectively. > Right, LSJ? Even still, there are numerous other cards that use three blood that would be useful. Kiss of Ra, for example, could be used to modify an action at zero stealth. > > If that doesn't work, hafta come up > > with another nifty action first to scrape all the blood off of him. Could always go with Pulse to look at everyone's hands. > > Salbatore Bokkengro (4 cap, CHI for pro) would also work for this > > deck, come to think of it. But he would rely a lot more on having 10 > > Dominate skill cards handy since you can't fish them back out the same > > way as Herbie. > > So the problem is fishing back the skill cards from the ash heap? No...not really. You can design your deck in such a way as to have the amount of discipline cads in your library that you need. Noal -- "Excuse me. Are you a yuppie?" -woman at a gas station in Detroit [ quoted text not captured ]

lor...@nospam.nineball.org (Derek S. Ray) wrote: > carl_pi...@my-dejanews.com wrote: > >[Derek S. Ray wrote:] [snip] > >> gets the two skill cards and the Gem. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Since > >> Herbie is still in play, the Sensory Deprivation cards stay in effect, > >> I believe? Hmm. they might not. > > > >I don't think they stay in play, as Herbert is burned, effectively. > >Right, LSJ? > > The Sensory Deprivation card reads "(S) As above, but a vampire may be > chosen; he or she does not untap during the untap phase as long as the > acting vampire remains in play." This wording is slightly ambiguous > since it doesn't use the more-useful template that it could: "Place > this card on that vampire. That vampire does not untap during the > untap phase. Burn this card if the acting vampire is removed from > play." While the wording does have some problems, they do not pose any problem to this situation. The Herbert who was the acting vampire referred to by Sensory Deprivation is in the Ash Heap. The one who is in play is not Sensory Deprivation's "acting vampire". So, no matter the other ambiguity on Sensory Deprivation, it doesn't work "through" a Soul Gem (or through a contesting if the "acting" Herbert is yieled, and so on). This is standard for all cards that "select", "choose" or otherwise refer to a specific card in play - they refer to cards by specific instance of the card, not by specific "name" that applies to all copies of that card. Beyond that, however, the bit about "remaining" in play is also important. If the vampire leaves play and then returns to play (that is, the same instance of the card returns to play), it doesn't matter, since he has not "remained" in play. As soon as he left play, the effects of Sensory Deprivation ended. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] After reading many other peoples thoughts on him what about putting text which says cost 6 to influence or make him a 6 point vampire with text that his capacity cannot increase. This would essentially make him a 6 point vampire with semi-modifiable abilities which you pay for with one extra capacity. This would (I believe) reduce the abuse of the soul gem and really give the effect you were looking for to begin with at the correct cost. Kevin

In article <7c37qq$9mp$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <Dhar...@yahoo.com> wrote: > carl_pi...@my-dejanews.com wrote: >I think that you're missing the point that once Herbert is in play with the >Soul Gem, say turn 3, you can conceivably continuously play until you >oust the table. > >For example: >Sensory Dep (or other high blood costing action) >Bleed with Force of Will >Burn >New Herbert comes out and dig for Discipline cards >Sensory Dep >Bleed with Force of Will >Burn >...and so forth. I tested a very similar deck in playtest15 game on JOL; it only got 1 VP, but that was because it was an untuned version. An optimized version would be very very nasty. It even has built-in combat defense: contest your own vamp. (You only want to do this when facing rush decks, since this tactic only allows you to act every other turn, but it does make your vamp immune to every form of rush except for Madness Network rush.) (For those who don't know, the playtest set is a bunch of entirely unofficial cards a bunch of people started making up about 2 years ago, when it looked like WotC had effectively dropped V:TES support. It includes a vamp who used to have a power similar to the one under discssuion here, until we realized how dangerous it was and changed it.) >Even still, there are numerous other cards that use three blood that >would be useful. Kiss of Ra, for example, could be used to modify >an action at zero stealth. I used The Embrace, in hopes of not just infinite-loop bleeding, but also weenie-swarm bleeding. -- Justin Fang (jus...@ugcs.caltech.edu) This space intentionally left blank.