"The minion with this card burns one riddle counter instead of untapping
during his untap phase".
Does that mean that if he wasn't tapped the counters stay ?
--
Yours,
Orpheus, Prince of Marseille
http://no.exit.free.fr (onlive novel)
http://cypheranima.free.fr (goth band)
news://news.zoo-logique.org/VTES-francophone
audio...@yahoogroups.com
Orpheus wrote:
>
> "The minion with this card burns one riddle counter instead of untapping
> during his untap phase".
>
> Does that mean that if he wasn't tapped the counters stay ?
No. A counter is removed instead of untapping the minion.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
> > "The minion with this card burns one riddle counter instead of untapping
> > during his untap phase".
> >
> > Does that mean that if he wasn't tapped the counters stay ?
>
> No. A counter is removed instead of untapping the minion.
OK, thanks.
Speajing of tapped / untapped : do all the powers that concern "controlled"
or "untapped" vampires (like Bart's) apply, as logic would dictate, even if
they are in torpor ?
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3CA0BCEB...@white-wolf.com...
> Orpheus wrote:
> >
> > "The minion with this card burns one riddle counter instead of untapping
> > during his untap phase".
> >
> > Does that mean that if he wasn't tapped the counters stay ?
>
> No. A counter is removed instead of untapping the minion.
>
Yeah, but if you're not going to untap the minion, then what? See Charnas on a
minion who is already untapped beore his untap phase.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Charnas doesn't do anything instead of untapping.
Charnas activates when the minion untaps.
Charnas doesn't notice the minion remaining untapped.
The riddle counter is removed instead of applying the useless untap effect.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Orpheus wrote:
> Speajing of tapped / untapped : do all the powers that concern "controlled"
> or "untapped" vampires (like Bart's) apply, as logic would dictate, even if
> they are in torpor ?
Yes.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3CA0CE4F...@white-wolf.com...
> Chris Berger wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, but if you're not going to untap the minion, then what? See Charnas
on a
> > minion who is already untapped beore his untap phase.
>
> Charnas doesn't do anything instead of untapping.
> Charnas activates when the minion untaps.
> Charnas doesn't notice the minion remaining untapped.
> The riddle counter is removed instead of applying the useless untap effect.
>
What useless untap effect? I am genuinely confused. Charnas happens when the
minion untaps. Riddle Phantastique burns a counter when a minion *would*
untap. The situations seem exactly the same, as far as I can tell. I was
under the impression that only tapped vampires are untapped during your
untapped phase. If untapped vampires are also untapped during the phase, then
shouldn't Charnas deal damage regardless (please let the answer be no... I hate
that little imp).
On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:24:43 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
wrote:
>Orpheus wrote:>>
>> "The minion with this card burns one riddle counter instead of untapping
>> during his untap phase".
>>
>> Does that mean that if he wasn't tapped the counters stay ?>
>No. A counter is removed instead of untapping the minion.
>
>
Not possible. You have a choice of removing instead of untapping. If
you cant or dont untap, you cannot remove.
T
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3CA0E1A3...@white-wolf.com...
> Chris Berger wrote:
>
> > What useless untap effect? I am genuinely confused. Charnas happens when
the
> > minion untaps. Riddle Phantastique burns a counter when a minion *would*
> > untap. The situations seem exactly the same, as far as I can tell. I was
> > under the impression that only tapped vampires are untapped during your
> > untapped phase. If untapped vampires are also untapped during the phase,
then
> > shouldn't Charnas deal damage regardless (please let the answer be no... I
hate
> > that little imp).
>
> The answer, as above, is indeed no.
>
Okay, thanks for the non-helpful reply.
My question was: What useless untap effect?
Are only tapped vampires untapped during the untap phase, or are untapped
vampires also untapped?
Chris Berger wrote:
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3CA0E1A3...@white-wolf.com...
> > Chris Berger wrote:
> >
> > > What useless untap effect? I am genuinely confused. Charnas happens when
> the
> > > minion untaps. Riddle Phantastique burns a counter when a minion *would*
> > > untap. The situations seem exactly the same, as far as I can tell. I was
> > > under the impression that only tapped vampires are untapped during your
> > > untapped phase. If untapped vampires are also untapped during the phase,
> then
> > > shouldn't Charnas deal damage regardless (please let the answer be no... I
> hate
> > > that little imp).
> >
> > The answer, as above, is indeed no.
> >
> Okay, thanks for the non-helpful reply.
?
OK.
> My question was: What useless untap effect?
Untapping an untapped vampire.
> Are only tapped vampires untapped during the untap phase, or are untapped
> vampires also untapped?
Trying to untap an untapped vampire has no effect.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3CA12CEB...@white-wolf.com...
> Chris Berger wrote:
> > >
> > > The answer, as above, is indeed no.
> > >
> > Okay, thanks for the non-helpful reply.
>
> ?
> OK.
>
> > My question was: What useless untap effect?
>
> Untapping an untapped vampire.
>
> > Are only tapped vampires untapped during the untap phase, or are untapped
> > vampires also untapped?
>
> Trying to untap an untapped vampire has no effect.
>
"They don't untap" no effect, or "Nothing happens" no effect.
That is, why do you do something "instead of untapping them", but not do things
that would happen when they are untapped. Either that untapped vampire is
being untapped or it isn't, no?
Chris Berger wrote:
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3CA12CEB...@white-wolf.com...
> > Chris Berger wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The answer, as above, is indeed no.
> > > >
> > > Okay, thanks for the non-helpful reply.
> >
> > ?
> > OK.
> >
> > > My question was: What useless untap effect?
> >
> > Untapping an untapped vampire.
> >
> > > Are only tapped vampires untapped during the untap phase, or are untapped
> > > vampires also untapped?
> >
> > Trying to untap an untapped vampire has no effect.
> >
> "They don't untap" no effect, or "Nothing happens" no effect.
?
> That is, why do you do something "instead of untapping them", but not do things
> that would happen when they are untapped. Either that untapped vampire is
> being untapped or it isn't, no?
Applying a tap effect to a tapped vampire doesn't tap him - it leaves him tapped.
If there were some effect that occured every time a vampire tapped, then that
effect would not occur if the vampire were already tapped and received, say,
a Rotschreck.
Applying an untap effect to an untapped vampire doesn't untap him - it leaves
him untapped.
So, at the untap phase you apply the untap effect to the untapped vampire, but
he doesn't untap (no Charnas). And you can, instead of applying the worthless
untap effect, skip it and remove a counter instead.
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ wrote:
> he doesn't untap (no Charnas). And you can, instead of applying the worthless
> untap effect, skip it and remove a counter instead.
>
>
Er, I thought untapping at the start of the untap-phase was mandatory,
unless prohibited by some effect, so you couldn't really 'skip' the
admittedly worthless effect? Have I misunderstood this, and if so,
in what way?
Sten During
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3CA1A804...@white-wolf.com>...
<snip>
> Applying a tap effect to a tapped vampire doesn't tap him - it leaves him tapped.
> If there were some effect that occured every time a vampire tapped, then that
> effect would not occur if the vampire were already tapped and received, say,
> a Rotschreck.
>
> Applying an untap effect to an untapped vampire doesn't untap him - it leaves
> him untapped.
>
> So, at the untap phase you apply the untap effect to the untapped vampire, but
> he doesn't untap (no Charnas). And you can, instead of applying the worthless
> untap effect, skip it and remove a counter instead.
Why couldn't you give that kind of answer on the very beginning?
I observe all the posts and I must write that answering in that
fashion would limit the number of postings. You always write ambiguous
clarifications like "Correct." or "Yes, as above.". Rules clarifiction
should always be c l e a r, explained step by step. That is definition
of a clarification, please correct me if I am wrong.
I am not trying to be Mr. Smart just want to be helpful.
Regards,
KM
Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote in message news:<3ca5e84f.440240323@news>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Possible.
What LSJ explains (stop me if i'm wrong, netrep), is :
At your untap, all your minion can untap.(1)
When they are already untap, they just stay untapped.(2)
If tapped, they untap.(3)
Charnas's effect triggers at point (3).
Riddle's effect triggers at point (1). Riddle doesn't look at tap or
untap status of a minion.
Maybe, talon, your logical sense is hurted by this explanation, but
it's logical -in an other sense...
Now, you can discuss for one hundred post, and then, finish by quoting
all the encyclopedia britannica...
Kindred SPIRIT.
kamel...@yvelines.pref.gouv.fr writes:
>At your untap, all your minion can untap.(1)
>When they are already untap, they just stay untapped.(2)
>If tapped, they untap.(3)
>Charnas's effect triggers at point (3).
>Riddle's effect triggers at point (1). Riddle doesn't look at tap or
>untap status of a minion.>Maybe, talon, your logical sense is hurted by this explanation, but
>it's logical -in an other sense...
The problem is that "to untap" is being used for both (1)
and (3) There's no way to determine from card text
which meaning Charnas uses and which meaning RP uses.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
CurtAdams wrote:
> >At your untap, all your minion can untap.(1)
> >When they are already untap, they just stay untapped.(2)
> >If tapped, they untap.(3)
> >Charnas's effect triggers at point (3).
> >Riddle's effect triggers at point (1). Riddle doesn't look at tap or
> >untap status of a minion.
>
> >Maybe, talon, your logical sense is hurted by this explanation, but
> >it's logical -in an other sense...
>
> The problem is that "to untap" is being used for both (1)
> and (3) There's no way to determine from card text
> which meaning Charnas uses and which meaning RP uses.
To distinguish them:
One is being done to the minion (1), the other is a result of
what the minion does (3).
[ quoted text not captured ]
vte...@white-wolf.com writes:
>> The problem is that "to untap" is being used for both (1)
>> and (3) There's no way to determine from card text
>> which meaning Charnas uses and which meaning RP uses.>To distinguish them:>One is being done to the minion (1), the other is a result of
>what the minion does (3).
Distinguishing by passive vs. active voice is too subtle IMO.
In any case, the wording of Riddle Phantastique:
"The minion with this card burns 1 riddle counter instead of untapping"
certainly sounds like (3), active voice. A better wording
would be "The minion with this card burns 1 Riddle Counter
during untap and does not untap as normal." "Untap" is
still ambiguous here but since the burning is no longer
linked it's not a problem.
[ quoted text not captured ]
CurtAdams wrote:
>
> vte...@white-wolf.com writes:
>
> >> The problem is that "to untap" is being used for both (1)
> >> and (3) There's no way to determine from card text
> >> which meaning Charnas uses and which meaning RP uses.
>
> >To distinguish them:
>
> >One is being done to the minion (1), the other is a result of
> >what the minion does (3).
>
> Distinguishing by passive vs. active voice is too subtle IMO.
Try:
Distinguishing between something to be done and something that
is being / has been done.
If an untapped minion tries to untap, nothing happens - he merely
remains untapped. Instead of trying to untap, he can remove a
riddle counter.
> In any case, the wording of Riddle Phantastique:
>
> "The minion with this card burns 1 riddle counter instead of untapping"
> certainly sounds like (3), active voice. A better wording
OK. Active voice is not a problem.
> would be "The minion with this card burns 1 Riddle Counter
> during untap and does not untap as normal." "Untap" is
> still ambiguous here but since the burning is no longer
> linked it's not a problem.
Alters functionality, though, if the minion was already not untapping
as normal.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3CA22017...@white-wolf.com...
>
> > would be "The minion with this card burns 1 Riddle Counter
> > during untap and does not untap as normal." "Untap" is
> > still ambiguous here but since the burning is no longer
> > linked it's not a problem.
>
> Alters functionality, though, if the minion was already not untapping
> as normal.
>
It seems like you are making a distinction between "untapping" and "trying to
untap". Where "trying to untap" is what you do to all vampires during your
untap phase. And "untapping" is what happens if this attempt is successful.
Both are denoted simply with the word "untap", and there is no way to
differentiate. Apparently, you are saying that Riddle kicks in when the
vampire "tries to untap". Is this true for all cards that say "instead of
untapping", or is this a special ruling for Riddle Phantastique? I ask,
because there is certainly no way to guess this from card text.
Similarly, can two effects that happen "instead of untapping" both be used, or
do you "use up" your untapping effect on one of them. Can I burn a Fata Amria
(or similar cards) off of my vamp that has a Riddle on him? If yes, can I
choose not to?
If I have a Kindred Society Games on the Riddled vamp, what happens if he
burns a blood to untap via KSG (after we have already burned a counter off the
Riddle)? Do I just burn another counter off the Riddle?
----
Legacy of Pander Power
Pander
Reaction
5 blood
Only usable when a vampire you control enters combat. A second vampire you
control may play this card to end combat. Tap the second vampire. Combat ends.
Both vampires engaged in combat go into torpor. Put this card in play. Each
non-titled Pander has one vote. Any Sabbat vampire may call a referendum to
burn this card as a +1 stealth political action.
----
Chris Berger wrote:
>
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> news:3CA22017...@white-wolf.com...
> >
> > > would be "The minion with this card burns 1 Riddle Counter
> > > during untap and does not untap as normal." "Untap" is
> > > still ambiguous here but since the burning is no longer
> > > linked it's not a problem.
> >
> > Alters functionality, though, if the minion was already not untapping
> > as normal.
> >
> It seems like you are making a distinction between "untapping" and "trying to
> untap".
I should hope that that was beyond "seems" by now.
> Where "trying to untap" is what you do to all vampires during your
> untap phase.
It's what you do anytime something tells you to untap something else,
including at the start of your untap phase, yes.
> And "untapping" is what happens if this attempt is successful.
... is what happens if the state (tapped/untapped) of the minion
is changed from tapped to untapped.
> Both are denoted simply with the word "untap", and there is no way to
> differentiate. Apparently, you are saying that Riddle kicks in when the
Context differentiates. Some effects trigger by an untap. Other effects
attempt to effect an untap.
"Do X when Y untaps" as opposed to "untap Z".
> vampire "tries to untap". Is this true for all cards that say "instead of
> untapping", or is this a special ruling for Riddle Phantastique?
The former.
> Similarly, can two effects that happen "instead of untapping" both be used, or
> do you "use up" your untapping effect on one of them. Can I burn a Fata Amria
The latter. cf. Jyhad-text investments.
> (or similar cards) off of my vamp that has a Riddle on him? If yes, can I
Sure. But then you don't lose a Riddle counter.
> choose not to?
Fata Amria: Of course (card text: "may").
> If I have a Kindred Society Games on the Riddled vamp, what happens if he
> burns a blood to untap via KSG (after we have already burned a counter off the
> Riddle)? Do I just burn another counter off the Riddle?
KSG prevents the vampire from untapping as normal, so you would not
have burned a Riddle counter for that nonexistent untap.
It seems very likely that Riddle should work only on "as normal" untaps, but
card text doesn't reach that goal, and the alternatives are too corner case
to bother with errata, so sure: if you get another untap effect in your
untap phase, it will just "eat" a riddle counter as well.
I'll put that last one on the RT list, since it likely will not match
player intuition.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Parnassus wrote:
> Why couldn't you give that kind of answer on the very beginning?
> I observe all the posts and I must write that answering in that
> fashion would limit the number of postings. You always write ambiguous
> clarifications like "Correct." or "Yes, as above.". Rules clarifiction
> should always be c l e a r, explained step by step. That is definition
> of a clarification, please correct me if I am wrong.
> I am not trying to be Mr. Smart just want to be helpful.
As you can see, having observed all the posts, even "that kind of answer"
has not stemmed the number of postings. It's very difficult to always know
exactly what answer is going to satisfy a given reader (and impossible to
give only answers that will satisfy all readers).
At any rate, "Correct" could hardly be considered either amgiguous or
a clarification, in its usual usage.
And, point of order, I don't "always" write such answers, as my
post you've quoted illustrates.
Your definition of a clarification is all well and good, but, naturally,
not all answers need to be clarifications.
If anyone is volunteering to write lengthy step-by-step explanations
for every question that gets asked here or on other on-line forum,
feel free.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3CA22BC4...@white-wolf.com...
> Chris Berger wrote:> > Where "trying to untap" is what you do to all vampires during your
> > untap phase.
>
> It's what you do anytime something tells you to untap something else,
> including at the start of your untap phase, yes.
A bit of a tangent here: In the current online rulebook,
at [4] it says that at the beginning of your untap phase,
"you must untap all of your tapped cards." The implication
here is clearly that cards which are already untapped do
not have any effect applied to them at all.
This is contradicted at [3] where the one-line summary
of the untap phase is "Untap all your cards", and this
is reiterated in the text paragraph which says that
"you are required to untap all of your cards in your untap
phase."
I think this difference ought to be eliminated - the
game could make sense either way, but the "untap only
tapped cards" version isn't what's been used up to now,
I think.
Josh
untappy
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3CA22BC4...@white-wolf.com...
>
> > Similarly, can two effects that happen "instead of untapping" both be used,
or
> > do you "use up" your untapping effect on one of them. Can I burn a Fata
Amria
>
> The latter. cf. Jyhad-text investments.
>
> > (or similar cards) off of my vamp that has a Riddle on him? If yes, can I
>
> Sure. But then you don't lose a Riddle counter.
>
Okay. I think I'm all cleared up. As long as you allow me to consider the
phrase "instead of untapping" to be ruled to mean "instead of trying to untap",
and all other instances of things that happen when a minion untaps happen when
the minion actually untaps instead of "trying to untap".
One last thing: if a minion has two "instead of untapping" effects on him (say,
Riddle Phantastique and Left for Dead) that are not optional, I assume that I
can pick which one to use? So I either burn the Left for Dead, or I burn a
Riddle counter, but not both?
Joshua Duffin wrote:
> A bit of a tangent here: In the current online rulebook,
> at [4] it says that at the beginning of your untap phase,
> "you must untap all of your tapped cards." The implication
> here is clearly that cards which are already untapped do
> not have any effect applied to them at all.
Yes. That will be fixed in the next rulebook.
You untap all your cards.
> This is contradicted at [3] where the one-line summary
> of the untap phase is "Untap all your cards", and this
> is reiterated in the text paragraph which says that
> "you are required to untap all of your cards in your untap
> phase."
This is correct.
> I think this difference ought to be eliminated - the
> game could make sense either way, but the "untap only
> tapped cards" version isn't what's been used up to now,
> I think.
Right.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Chris Berger wrote:
> Okay. I think I'm all cleared up. As long as you allow me to consider the
> phrase "instead of untapping" to be ruled to mean "instead of trying to untap",
> and all other instances of things that happen when a minion untaps happen when
> the minion actually untaps instead of "trying to untap".
Of course. "Instead of untapping" is not a "thing that happens when a minion
untaps", though.
Two types of things:
"When X untaps, do Y"
and
"instead of untapping X, do Z"
The former happens when X untaps (from a tapped position)
The latter happens when some effect would untap X (and then, instead of
untapping X, you do Z).
> One last thing: if a minion has two "instead of untapping" effects on him (say,
> Riddle Phantastique and Left for Dead) that are not optional, I assume that I
> can pick which one to use? So I either burn the Left for Dead, or I burn a
> Riddle counter, but not both?
Correct.
[ quoted text not captured ]
vte...@white-wolf.com writes:
>Try:
>Distinguishing between something to be done and something that
>is being / has been done.>If an untapped minion tries to untap, nothing happens - he merely
>remains untapped. Instead of trying to untap, he can remove a
>riddle counter.
A distinction between "untap" and "try/attempt to untap"
could be clear; but RP doesn't use any "try" language. In
another post you distinguish between what a minion does
and what its controller does to it - but, again, RP isn't
"instead of untapping this minion, the controller burns
a riddle counter". I'm just envisioning trying to explain
this to a newbie and it sounds almost humorous:
"You're not untapping him"
"Well, actually I am untapping him, even though he's
not untapping. Untapping as a transitive verb refers
to the attempt to untap, while untapping as a transitive
verb refers to the actual event."
I know if *I* were the newbie, I'd say "Oh please,
how much of a sucker do you think I am?"
Since we have two quite different concepts here (merely
frequently co-occuring) distinct language would make it
much easier. "Ready" and "untap" spring to mind, although
I suppose it's too late for that. Although, a lot of cards
got errated for the political action -> referendum shift.
[ quoted text not captured ]
I goof with:
>"Well, actually I am untapping him, even though he's
>not untapping. Untapping as a transitive verb refers
>to the attempt to untap, while untapping as a transitive
>verb refers to the actual event."
oops, should be:
"while untapping as a INtransitive verb refers to the actual event."
Of all the words to goof on. Sigh.
[ quoted text not captured ]
CurtAdams wrote:
>
> vte...@white-wolf.com writes:
>
> >Try:
> >Distinguishing between something to be done and something that
> >is being / has been done.
>
> >If an untapped minion tries to untap, nothing happens - he merely
> >remains untapped. Instead of trying to untap, he can remove a
> >riddle counter.
>
> A distinction between "untap" and "try/attempt to untap"
> could be clear; but RP doesn't use any "try" language. In
Nothing does.
The distinstion is between an effect which untaps something
and an effect which happens when something untaps.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 02:22:15 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>> Are only tapped vampires untapped during the untap phase, or are untapped
>> vampires also untapped?>
>Trying to untap an untapped vampire has no effect.
>
Except for certain cards that trigger when a vampire untaps. Why are
you making such rulings that aren't backed by the rules?
Untap phase: you must untap all of your tapped cards
You do not 'untap' untapped cards.
T
On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:40:07 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
wrote:
>If an untapped minion tries to untap, nothing happens - he merely
>remains untapped. Instead of trying to untap, he can remove a
>riddle counter.
No such situation. Untapped miniond do not 'try to untap' as per the
rules.
T
Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote:
>
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 02:22:15 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >> Are only tapped vampires untapped during the untap phase, or are untapped
> >> vampires also untapped?
> >
> >Trying to untap an untapped vampire has no effect.
> >
>
> Except for certain cards that trigger when a vampire untaps.
No. Those effects only trigger when the vampire changes from a tapped
to an untapped state.
> Why are
> you making such rulings that aren't backed by the rules?> Untap phase: you must untap all of your tapped cards
Untap phase: you must untap all of your cards. [3]
> You do not 'untap' untapped cards.
Glad you see it.
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
Cite the reference that you claim above that states untapped
{minion|vampire|card} cannot receive an untap effect.
Or better, stop making false claims.
[ quoted text not captured ]
vte...@white-wolf.com writes:
>> A distinction between "untap" and "try/attempt to untap"
>> could be clear; but RP doesn't use any "try" language. In>Nothing does.>The distinstion is between an effect which untaps something
>and an effect which happens when something untaps.
I understand what RP does and I understand what Charnas does.
I'm just pointing out that when you use the same language
for two different effects, you're going to generate confusion.
Insofar as there's a distinction, the RP wording implies the
second condition (albeit ambiguously) even though the card
follows the first.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 23:56:49 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote:>>
>> On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:40:07 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >If an untapped minion tries to untap, nothing happens - he merely
>> >remains untapped. Instead of trying to untap, he can remove a
>> >riddle counter.
>>
>> No such situation. Untapped miniond do not 'try to untap' as per the
>> rules.>
>Cite the reference that you claim above that states untapped
>{minion|vampire|card} cannot receive an untap effect.
>
>Or better, stop making false claims.
>
The rulebook.
4. Untap Phase
You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your
untap phase, you must untap all of your tapped cards.
At no point do you 'untap' untapped cards, only tapped cards.
T
[ quoted text not captured ]
You cite a reference that says that tapped cards aer untapped.
No one disputes this. All cards are untapped at the start of
the untap phase. That you untap your tapped cards does not
indicate that you do not untap your other cards.
> At no point do you 'untap' untapped cards, only tapped cards.
This doesn't follow from your cited source.
Moreover, it is not true, per section 3, as previously cited by
both Joshua Duffin and myself.
Please cite a rulebook reference that says that an untapped card
cannot be the target of an "untap" effect.
Or better, admit that the claim is not true.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:26:04 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
wrote:
>>
>> The rulebook.
>>
>> 4. Untap Phase
>> You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your
>> untap phase, you must untap all of your tapped cards.>
>You cite a reference that says that tapped cards aer untapped.
>No one disputes this. All cards are untapped at the start of
>the untap phase.
No, just the tapped ones LSJ.
>That you untap your tapped cards does not
>indicate that you do not untap your other cards.
>
The absence of such enabling text does indicate that though, and you
have provided nothing to the contrary.
>> At no point do you 'untap' untapped cards, only tapped cards.>
>This doesn't follow from your cited source.
>
It must. We cannot assume an effect without something to clearly
provide that effect.
>Moreover, it is not true, per section 3, as previously cited by
>both Joshua Duffin and myself.
>
Section 3 is a summary. Section 4 is the direct section that deals
specefically with the untap phase, and thus is the applicable section.
>Please cite a rulebook reference that says that an untapped card
>cannot be the target of an "untap" effect.
>
You know there is no such thing, and you also know that there are
cards that do untap other cards. What you fail to admit is that there
is no effect in the game that untapps untapped minions in the untap
phase.
>Or better, admit that the claim is not true.
>
Not necesary. For once though, I'd like to see you do so, or at the
very least entertain the notion that yours is not true.
T
Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 14:26:04 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>> >> The rulebook.
> >>
> >> 4. Untap Phase
> >> You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your
> >> untap phase, you must untap all of your tapped cards.
> >
> >You cite a reference that says that tapped cards aer untapped.
> >No one disputes this. All cards are untapped at the start of
> >the untap phase.
>
> No, just the tapped ones LSJ.
No. All of them. [3]
> >That you untap your tapped cards does not
> >indicate that you do not untap your other cards.
>
> The absence of such enabling text does indicate that though, and you
> have provided nothing to the contrary.
It isn't absent. It's in [3]
> >> At no point do you 'untap' untapped cards, only tapped cards.
> >
> >This doesn't follow from your cited source.
>
> It must. We cannot assume an effect without something to clearly
> provide that effect.
[3] clearly provides the effect. As stated.
What you want to do is assume that 3 is overridden somehow without
something taht provides the overriding effect.
> >Moreover, it is not true, per section 3, as previously cited by
> >both Joshua Duffin and myself.
> >
>
> Section 3 is a summary. Section 4 is the direct section that deals
> specefically with the untap phase, and thus is the applicable section.
And section 4 doesn't contradict section 3. As I said.
> You know there is no such thing, and you also know that there are
> cards that do untap other cards. What you fail to admit is that there
> is no effect in the game that untapps untapped minions in the untap
> phase.
The untap phase produces such an effect. [3]
> >Or better, admit that the claim is not true.
>
> Not necesary. For once though, I'd like to see you do so, or at the
> very least entertain the notion that yours is not true.
"Untap phase. Untap all your cards" [3]
It is, therefore, clearly "true"
Thanks for playing.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:08:43 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
wrote:
>>>> No, just the tapped ones LSJ.>
>No. All of them. [3]
>
Interesting that your entire counter argument is based on a summary of
play that only refers to the untap phase in general, and not the
specefic section that applies to the untap phase instead.
That's flat out laughable.
If you cannot see why, you should not be in the position you hold
over this game.
T
[ quoted text not captured ]
Better to base on argument on a summary than on nothing at all.
As I've said, you untap all of your cards [3]. This includes
the fact that you untap all of your tapped cards [4]. The latter
doesn't preclude the former.
There is nothiong to indicate that you do not untap all of your
cards as stated in section 3, so there is no reason to believe
that the rules are not correct on that point.
Laugh away.
[ quoted text not captured ]
<Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3caca8ba.557765396@news...
> On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:08:43 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
> wrote:> >No. All of them. [3]
> >
>
> Interesting that your entire counter argument is based on a summary of
> play that only refers to the untap phase in general, and not the
> specefic section that applies to the untap phase instead.
Your argument relies on claiming that [4]'s text that "At the
beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your tapped
cards." *secretly* means "And don't untap the untapped ones,
either." This despite the fact that [3]'s description of the
phases of the game clearly states that *all* your cards untap
during the untap phase.
Obviously it would be clearer if [4] didn't only mention
tapped cards, and that'll probably be clarified in the next
printing of the rulebook, but it's apparent enough from reading
both [3] and [4] that everything's supposed to untap.
Also note that [3] isn't referring to the untap phase in any
particularly "general" manner; it isn't the section that deals
specifically with the untap phase, but it does give specific
instructions for what happens during the untap phase and a
reinforcing reiteration just after the "phases of play" bit.
Josh
say, where's that coupe guy been lately? off actually doing
his schoolwork or something?
>Interesting that your entire counter argument is based on a summary of
>play that only refers to the untap phase in general, and not the
>specefic section that applies to the untap phase instead.
>
>That's flat out laughable.
Talonz, will you please give it up?
Do you feel some obligation to take up the mantle of the Troll King, since
Andrew hasn't been posting much lately?
>If you cannot see why, you should not be in the position you hold
>over this game.
And this clearly shows how little you know of the game and what it's been
through.
Besides being extremely well-versed in the rules, LSJ (even before becoming the
rules monger) did a lot to help keep the game alive. I've been around for quite
some time but even I must admit that LSJ's previous contributions are beyond
the scope of my knowledge, though from what other forumites have alluded to,
they have indeed been quite significant.
In addition, it just seems that people just whine and moan because they can't
get their way. At least the way I see it, LSJ and Rules Team serve as sort of a
judiciary branch. It's not their job to do things just because they feel like
it, because they think it would be cool, or because it would "follow the
storyline" (that's the legislative branch's job). In general, LSJ and the Rules
Team try to maintain consistency and uphold precedent (even if sometimes they
don't like it). They often have to make their rulings based on "the framer's
intent" (designer's intent) and only when something is really becoming abusive
(RotI, ToRIII, TB, etc.) are things errata'ed down.
Halcyan 2
On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:53:49 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
wrote:
>> >
>>
>> Interesting that your entire counter argument is based on a summary of
>> play that only refers to the untap phase in general, and not the
>> specefic section that applies to the untap phase instead.
>>>>Better to base on argument on a summary than on nothing at all.
>
No, better to base an argument on the applicable rules section, like
4. Untap phase for instance.
>As I've said, you untap all of your cards [3]. This includes
>the fact that you untap all of your tapped cards [4]. The latter
>doesn't preclude the former.
>
It most certainly does, when the latter is the applicable rules
section on the untap phase in its entirety, instead of a 4 word blurb
on what happens during the phase in the turn sequence summary.
>There is nothiong to indicate that you do not untap all of your
>cards as stated in section 3,
Because its a summary only, for general reference and not specefic
rules application.
>so there is no reason to believe
>that the rules are not correct on that point.
>
Besides common sense you mean.
>Laugh away.
>
I'm not. I am now happy how you have increased the strength of such
cards that rely on minions untapping, like charnas or whispers of the
nikitu.
Genius move LSJ.
T
On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:44:19 -0500, "Joshua Duffin"
<jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
><Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3caca8ba.557765396@news...>> On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:08:43 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
>> wrote:>>> >No. All of them. [3]
>> >
>>
>> Interesting that your entire counter argument is based on a summary of
>> play that only refers to the untap phase in general, and not the
>> specefic section that applies to the untap phase instead.>
>Your argument relies on claiming that [4]'s text that "At the
>beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your tapped
>cards." *secretly* means "And don't untap the untapped ones,
>either."
Not quite. Without a specefic direction to untap all cards, you
follow the direction given in 4. to untap the tapped cards. What I
find amazing is that everyone seems to ignore this and slavishly
follow the supposed 'direction' given in 3. to untap all cards,
despite the fact that 3. is clearly a summary of sequence of play
only, and not the specefic rules on each phase.
When in doubt, and this does appear to be a contradiction if one takes
both sections literally (untap all/untap tapped) then you go with the
specefic rules section on the situation in question; 4. untap phase.
As an alternative example, if a prosecutor were to practice law by
using only the barest of definitons instead of the exact applicable
section of code 'gosh judge, he admitted he had a drink, so he must be
drunk, and he was driving, so he must be driving under the influence,
lock him up!' will get you laughed out of court.
You CANNOT use only a summary or refernce and stop there to give final
judgement. You MUST go to the most directly applicable source and see
what it says there.
In this case, reading a one line blurb on the untap phase in 3.
summary of the minion phase is clearly misleading. 4. untap phase,
has a paragraph plus in more detail that must be looked at, and there
there is no untapping of untapped cards. It would be preposterious to
suggest otherwise, for practical and textual reasons.
T
Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:44:19 -0500, "Joshua Duffin"
> <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Your argument relies on claiming that [4]'s text that "At the
> >beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your tapped
> >cards." *secretly* means "And don't untap the untapped ones,
> >either."
>
> Not quite. Without a specefic direction to untap all cards, you
> follow the direction given in 4. to untap the tapped cards.
Specific direction:
"You are required to untap all of your cards in your untap phase."
> When in doubt, and this does appear to be a contradiction if one takes
> both sections literally (untap all/untap tapped) then you go with the
> specefic rules section on the situation in question; 4. untap phase.
No contradiction.
[ quoted text not captured ]
<Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3cb08586.51306775@news...
> On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:44:19 -0500, "Joshua Duffin"
> <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote:> >Your argument relies on claiming that [4]'s text that "At the
> >beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your tapped
> >cards." *secretly* means "And don't untap the untapped ones,
> >either."
>
> Not quite. Without a specefic direction to untap all cards, you
> follow the direction given in 4. to untap the tapped cards. What I
> find amazing is that everyone seems to ignore this and slavishly
> follow the supposed 'direction' given in 3. to untap all cards,
> despite the fact that 3. is clearly a summary of sequence of play
> only, and not the specefic rules on each phase.
Everyone else was reading when I went over this with LSJ a
couple weeks ago. In his post of 3-27-2002, he explained
that the wording at [4] would be corrected in the next rulebook
and that the description of the untap phase at [3] was the
correct one. It's been that way (like it says in [3]) for the
entire existence of the game.
Perhaps you're being confused by the fact that cards that are
already untapped don't end up "untapping" during the untap
phase - if a card doesn't physically change states from tapped
to untapped, it has not "untapped" and will not be affected
by Charnas the Imp or Vampiric Disease. However, you must (try
to) untap all your cards during the untap phase, just like it
says in the rulebook at [3].
Josh
not a lawyer either