intercept decks

"Linna Juho" <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote in message news:90mn5j$qir$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi... > I've never had the cards to try Tremere but a friend of mine managed > to put together a rather nice deck based on the old Burst of Sunlight > +Rotchreck combo. Also uses Amaranth (with 3 Muaziz in crypt). Not bad, I'm guessing Flak Jackets or Merrill to prevent the 1 agg? > Against POT or FOR decks it was quite helpless but it scored some nice > wins. Now with Telepathic Tracking I'd like to try Tremere but the > amount of rare cards I'd need is a pain :P Rare cards? I can't think of any, except Burst of Sunlight, that I'd want to put in this sort of deck. Telepathic Tracking, Thaumaturgy strikes, Apportation, intercept, that's about it, isn't it? Xian -- I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold. A cold that sleeps within my heart, It tears the earth and sun apart. --_Shellshock_, New Order www.waste.org/~xian

> > "Linna Juho" <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote in message > news:90mn5j$qir$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi... >> I've never had the cards to try Tremere but a friend of mine managed >> to put together a rather nice deck based on the old Burst of Sunlight >> +Rotchreck combo. Also uses Amaranth (with 3 Muaziz in crypt). > > Not bad, I'm guessing Flak Jackets or Merrill to prevent the 1 agg? No, he's using Rotschreck to "prevent the agg." The strike never actually happens, so the Burst doesn't send the victim to torpor, the Rotschreck does. -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

On 7 Dec 2000 00:55:15 GMT, Linna Juho <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote: > >During my 3 years of V:TES playing I've been trying to make decent >deck based on intercept. I'm interested in hearing from your >succesful intercept decks, and of course deck critique is welcome. The subject has come up and been wandered 'round repeatedly in Atlanta, with numerous deck types; the intercept wall, the intercept horde, and the aggressive intercept. David Davila has an article written summarizing our views, which can be found here: http://people.atl.mediaone.net/intj/jpa/strat_intercept02.htm (Next up for the intercepty-hell deck trial is Omaya, who with AUS/ANI/FOR and a built-in free prevent for those punch-punch intercepts, can potentially last just about forever.) I have, of course, many opinions of my own, and even a deck if I can make ELDB save to text (d'oh! bug for Dave!). >Some past experiences: >First I tried toreadors with guns (of course) but found them too >vulnerable. Sure Masika rocks _if_ he gets a gun and jacket, but >naked Masika looking for eq with 1 stealth is just asking for a >beating. Maybe Rave helps a bit here. Even after getting the gear >there's still too many ways to whack him. (Kiss of Ra being the >classic at my playgroup) Losing a 10 cap vampire with gear usually >can't be recovered from. You've pretty much hit it on the head here. The Toreador intercept/gun/Blur deck sounds wonderful in practice, but trying to actually get the guns on them is just a worthless cause. Nobody is usually willing to let anyone with Celerity get a gun; heck, most people will block gun actions on principle, because guns are a real nuisance once they come out. And a deck relying on such as Masika suffers from "intercept wall trouble", where one Elder Intervention, Pentex Subversion, Hostile Takeover, or the like will completely toast your deck. The other problem the Toreador have is lack of convenient untap. If they DO use the source of untap available to them (Majesty), they pretty much are forced to move into an "intercept-and-run-away" style of deck, which leaves them untapped lots but makes it very difficult to move forward -- AND tends to run out of blood. I've considered making a Toreador PRE/AUS deck that relies on Pulse to bleed forwards and tap out during its own turn, and then will Force Awake/intercept/Majesty to intercept actions it doesn't like; but the Pulses combined with Majesty's untap get awful expensive. Replacing them with Legal Manip seems functional, but begins to increase your chances of hand jam; and adding stealth is a lost cause. >I have yet to see a good toreador gun deck. Recently I've began >to toy with the idea of Francois Villon/Anneke deck with 12+ 2nd >Trad: Domains. Francois sucks 2 blood every turn, wakes&blocks >with Domain and pulls out a .44 with Disguised Weapon. Hmm. Anyone with obf/CEL/AUS has a much better time of actually getting any intercepting done. One of Pat's first decks was the Zoe/Victoria/Dancin' Dave combo that fetched Celerity skill cards out and made use of Fast Reaction and intercepty weenies. It never had trouble with the guns. Francois suffers from "target syndrome", of course; he's too big and his special really invites people to come over and beat his ass. Anneke >So next up was Tscimisce. I thought that with their innate source >of aggravated damage they'd prove more consistent. Although it wasn't >necessary to get gear anymore I had to stay at close range, which >brought new problems like Potence. In many games all my Tscimisce >except maybe Dragos/Meshenka ran out of blood and I was slowly >ousted. Yep. They have a lot more useful cards now, but close range is just hazardous to vampires' health; the first POT deck you run across will beat you with a very large stick and make you unhappy, since their actions are all at 0 stealth and you won't be able to move your intercept cards. And even with the agg damage, they DO tend to run out of blood. Let me throw in here that Spirit's Touch should be the backbone of any intercept deck's transient cards. At superior, the maneuver on the first round can save your butt whether you're planning offense OR defense with your deck. Sorely underestimated by many, IMO. I have a Tzimisce deck (mentioned in another thread) that I'll post at the bottom; it seems to be a very effective approach of its type. >Now I'm thinking a more defensive approach might work better with >the new cards Bloodform, Meld with Land, Inner Essence, Skin Trap. >Or maybe super offensive with Trap and lotsa Horrid Forms backed up >with Telepathic Trackings. And 5-6 War Ghouls. (At first I somehow >missed that they weren't unique. Should've traded me some more :) This is possible. I generally avoid defensive intercept decks because they simply can't move forward very well; sure, you stop all his actions, but all his defense still works fine, and you never oust. >I've never had the cards to try Tremere but a friend of mine managed >to put together a rather nice deck based on the old Burst of Sunlight >+Rotchreck combo. Also uses Amaranth (with 3 Muaziz in crypt). >Against POT or FOR decks it was quite helpless but it scored some nice >wins. Now with Telepathic Tracking I'd like to try Tremere but the >amount of rare cards I'd need is a pain :P Actually, against FOR decks it should've done fine since Rotshit even supersedes prevent cards. Again, though, it's vulnerable to any of the hose-one-vampire strategies. [snip deck description] >1 Atonement > >2 Sport Bike > >1 Rumor Mill >1 KRCG >1 London Evening Star > >6 Eagle's Sight >6 Telepathic Misdirection >1 Spirit's Touch > >1 Mr. Winthrop I'd worry about not getting enough intercept out early enough with this; the transient is only 13 cards, and TM costs a blood whether you use it to bounce or to intercept. The locations are fine, but the Sport Bikes and Winthrop are likely to be blocked; maybe have more of those so you can keep trying to equip until someone's light intercept runs dry, or more transient intercept so you can live until the locations show up. I'm personally a fan of aggressive intercept; ie, trying to stop EVERYTHING your prey does while surviving your predator as well, and attempting to toast a few of your prey's vampires while you're at it. I've seen intercept wall and horde decks "go" before, but they tend to face rightward instead of leftward, and occasionally a prey who has burned through 3 other players at the table will be too much to handle when it's down to you and him. In addition, you will have plenty of support from your grandprey when you're actively beating up his predator, as opposed to the "wall" deck which usually earns a great deal of scorn (and sometimes damage votes) from the grandprey who has a predator with a free hand. I think the wall and horde styles tend to just not put enough pressure on their prey, and thus unbalance the table. This is the deck I played at the War Room tourney a year ago and took to the finals in 3rd place; I suffered from seating position, as the 1st and 2nd place players who had stealth actions both sat as far away from me as they could, and I was left as the prey of a POT Rush deck and the predator of a light intercept deck itself. Ouch. Explanation and theory at bottom. (Yes, the deck is pre-Sabbat War. I am not telling what changes I'm making to it yet, other than the new vamps and some new cards helped it out enormously.) Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 19, Max: 35, Avg: 6.92] 2 Anton (Tzimisce, 8, AN AU ce ob vi) 1 Corine Marcon (Tzimisce, 6, an AU VI) 2 Devin Bisley (Tzimisce, 5, AN AU vi) 1 Dragos (Tzimisce, 7, AN AU vi) 1 Jost Werner (Toreador Antitribu, 6, an AU PR) 1 Lambach (Tzimisce, 10, AN AU DO pr VI, Cardinal) 2 Meshenka (Tzimisce, 8, AN AU VI, Priscus) 1 Stravinsky (Tzimisce, 9, AN AU po VI, Archbishop) 1 Wendy Wade (Tzimisce, 3, an au) Library: (90 cards) 15 Aid from Bats 8 Blood Doll 5 Carrion Crows 10 Cats' Guidance 8 Eagle's Sight 8 Enhanced Senses 8 Spirit's Touch 8 Forced Awakening 5 Guard Dogs 2 Wake with Evening's Freshness 2 Hungry Coyote, The 6 Murder of Crows 5 Pulse of the Canaille ...First thing you'll notice is the total lack of Vicissitude, and the fact that absolutely none of my cards aside from Pulse and Murder cost any blood whatsoever. :) This means that I can use the Blood Dolls freely, and once the Hungry Coyote comes out, I can tap out guys who AREN'T Pulsed and have them hunt for 2, and have a nasty blood-gain machine going that is difficult to get rid of since you can't bleed or vote at it. It is sort of amusing to get Dragos out though, who will be spending no blood for my free combat cards. :) Second thing is the total lack of permanent intercept, except for Anton. It takes time to recruit Raven Spies, Revenants, and the like; while this deck could probably do just as well with a few tossed in, if it's also taking recruit actions for Murder of Crows, it could take awhile to be functional. As it stands, it's effective (although not very damaging) out of the box - the first guy out can slap around everything his prey does. The transient intercept is 24 base cards with the Cat's Guidance as an optional extra; total intercept available is generally +3/+4 at any given moment, enough to deal with Forgotten Labyrinth and MORE than enough to deal with the typical Lost in Crowds/Faceless Night. It packs 8 Eagle's Sights, which are very important to have in stopping your prey's actions; especially that pesky +1 stealth bleed for the oust. The combat is simple and range-based, which will save you from all kinds of surprise nastiness that you might not like. Use Aid from Bats, Spirit's Touch, and Guard Dogs to guarantee long range at nearly any time. Stack up two Murder of Crows on a vampire, and now you have 3 points of damage in one round from every Aid from Bats, with an optional press, two of which are not preventable by Skin of Steel. If they S:CE, no problem. They'll run out before you will. Carrion Crows are handy to drop when you want someone to go away immediately, or if you have a vampire with a lot of blood on them. Also works for your Pulsed vampire; even though he won't have the Crows on him, the Aid from Bats will save him when he gets blocked. There are 25 untap cards in the deck. That should be plenty to ensure that you can tap out taking actions and still be able to deal with everything your predator AND prey do. And that's about it. It's important to stop almost everything you can so as to move through your deck; otherwise you tend to jam up on something or other. Looking back on it now, there are a number of changes I'd have made. I'd probably include a few more Raven Spies and fewer Enhanced Senses; maybe a few less Cat's Guidance. I might throw an intercept location such as London Evening Star in, but I hate using locations when Disputed Territory is so common (must Eagle's Sight to block the cross-table steal). I would use a few more Carrion Crows and fewer Murder of Crows/Bats, although that makes it more vulnerable to S:CE. I would put a few Meld with the Land cards in, of course, just for all-purpose ass-saving, and to save Deflected bleeds. I probably would've found room for one Direct Intervention and one Sudden Reversal, although I'm growing to dislike DI intensely. It is also designed for a tournament environment where you won't see a whole lot of random combat floating around; one gun or Sewer Lid can really screw with this deck. And of course, Omaya and Caliban have to make their appearance in it as well. :) -- Derek Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - C. Darwin, 1871

On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 03:27:59 +0000, James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >In article <1lpt2tklrbkv0iv37...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray ><lor...@yahoo.com> writes >> Replacing >>them with Legal Manip seems functional, but begins to increase your >>chances of hand jam; and adding stealth is a lost cause. > >(Obvious) Suggestion: Throw in a few Aura Reading and Revelations into >the deck. Chuck out minor intercept with basic Revelations when you get >the chance, and try and throw a superior Revelations into play for when >you want to see if they can block. Revelations is a card I keep forgetting, since I only have two and that just since Sabbat War. It makes excellent sense in an intercept deck, of course, since the only person who gives a crap is your prey, and it's nice to have him taking (D) actions against YOU. Everyone else is sort of amused by the thing. :) Even if your predator decides to stick his nose in the pie, it's much nicer to fail at blocking his (D) action to burn Revelations than it is to fail blocking his (D) action to bleed you for 6. [ quoted text not captured ]

During my 3 years of V:TES playing I've been trying to make decent deck based on intercept. I'm interested in hearing from your succesful intercept decks, and of course deck critique is welcome. Some past experiences: First I tried toreadors with guns (of course) but found them too vulnerable. Sure Masika rocks _if_ he gets a gun and jacket, but naked Masika looking for eq with 1 stealth is just asking for a beating. Maybe Rave helps a bit here. Even after getting the gear there's still too many ways to whack him. (Kiss of Ra being the classic at my playgroup) Losing a 10 cap vampire with gear usually can't be recovered from. I have yet to see a good toreador gun deck. Recently I've began to toy with the idea of Francois Villon/Anneke deck with 12+ 2nd Trad: Domains. Francois sucks 2 blood every turn, wakes&blocks with Domain and pulls out a .44 with Disguised Weapon. Hmm. So next up was Tscimisce. I thought that with their innate source of aggravated damage they'd prove more consistent. Although it wasn't necessary to get gear anymore I had to stay at close range, which brought new problems like Potence. In many games all my Tscimisce except maybe Dragos/Meshenka ran out of blood and I was slowly ousted. Now I'm thinking a more defensive approach might work better with the new cards Bloodform, Meld with Land, Inner Essence, Skin Trap. Or maybe super offensive with Trap and lotsa Horrid Forms backed up with Telepathic Trackings. And 5-6 War Ghouls. (At first I somehow missed that they weren't unique. Should've traded me some more :) I've never had the cards to try Tremere but a friend of mine managed to put together a rather nice deck based on the old Burst of Sunlight +Rotchreck combo. Also uses Amaranth (with 3 Muaziz in crypt). Against POT or FOR decks it was quite helpless but it scored some nice wins. Now with Telepathic Tracking I'd like to try Tremere but the amount of rare cards I'd need is a pain :P Anyways, while waiting for more new Vicissitude trades I made my so far most succesful intercept deck which has even managed to win a few games. It's AUS/CEL/(obf) weenies. (list below) The main idea dicipline wise is to get as many CEL vamps as possible to Psyche!. Works sweetly with guns and stops the almighty Form of Mist. Also uses obf for Disguised weapon and a little stealth. And with 5-7 minions out it doesn't hurt that much if someone gets whacked and I got more actions/blockers. I guess this is the biggest advantage compared to the earlier decks. And don't underestimate Watenda in this deck! Actually I'm thinking of adding another. With all my diciplineless intercept his lack of AUS doesn't hurt that much and the spec is oh so sweet with a .44 :) AUS/CEL/(obf) weenie intercept crypt(4 toreador, 4 malk, 1 !brujah, 3 caitiff ): 1 Nik 1 cel 1 Antoinette 1 cel 1 Franciscus 1 aus 1 Dieter Kleist 2 aus 2 Zöe 3 AUS,cel,obf 1 Isabel 3 AUS 1 Watenda 3 obf 1 Sarah Brando 3 CEL 1 Colin Flynn 3 aus,cel 1 Dorian Strack 4 AUS,cel 1 Victoria 5 AUS,cel,obf deck(90): action(4): 1 Revelations 1 Arson 1 Pulse of the C. 1 Atonement action modifier(4): 1 Swallowed by the Night 1 Cloak the Gathering 1 Lost in Crowds 1 Faceless Night allies(1): 1 Muddled Vampire Hunter combat(24): 4 Blur 3 Side Strike 7 Flash 6 Psyche! 2 Disguised Weapon 2 Fast Hands eq(18): 1 Assault Rifle 7 .44 Magnum 2 Saturday Night Spec. 1 IR Goggles 4 Leather Jacket 1 Palatial Estate 2 Sport Bike master(19): 5 Celerity 2 Effective Management 1 Rumor Mill 1 KRCG 1 London Evening Star 4 Blood Doll 1 Asylum HG 1 Society HG 1 The Rack 1 Powerbase: Chicago 1 Art Museum reaction(19): 6 Eagle's Sight 6 Telepathic Misdirection 6 Forced Awakening 1 Spirit's Touch retainers(1): 1 Mr. Winthrop -- Juho

In article <1lpt2tklrbkv0iv37...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes > Replacing >them with Legal Manip seems functional, but begins to increase your >chances of hand jam; and adding stealth is a lost cause. (Obvious) Suggestion: Throw in a few Aura Reading and Revelations into the deck. Chuck out minor intercept with basic Revelations when you get the chance, and try and throw a superior Revelations into play for when you want to see if they can block. -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "It's hard to carry on when you feel all alone. Now I've swung back again, it's worse than it was before. If I hadn't seen such riches I could live with being poor." - James, "Sit Down"

Xian <xi...@waste.org> wrote: > > "Linna Juho" <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote in message > news:90mn5j$qir$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi... >> I've never had the cards to try Tremere but a friend of mine managed >> to put together a rather nice deck based on the old Burst of Sunlight >> +Rotchreck combo. Also uses Amaranth (with 3 Muaziz in crypt). > > Not bad, I'm guessing Flak Jackets or Merrill to prevent the 1 agg? Close. I think he had 2 Merrils because of the spec and used fortitude too (Skin of Night, Skin of Steel). I thought using fortitude was so obvious that I didn't have to mention it:) Muaziz and couple other good Tremere have it. Also used some Precognitions. >> Against POT or FOR decks it was quite helpless but it scored some nice >> wins. Now with Telepathic Tracking I'd like to try Tremere but the >> amount of rare cards I'd need is a pain :P > > Rare cards? I can't think of any, except Burst of Sunlight, that I'd want > to > put in this sort of deck. Telepathic Tracking, Thaumaturgy strikes, > Apportation, intercept, that's about it, isn't it? Ah, but you're thinking Tremere without for, right? I think they're a bit too vulnerable. You can't count too heavily on the Rotchreck combo. Cross- table Suddens do happen and you only have one OOT master action. So the for version would like plenty of hard to get cards like Burst, Rotchreck, Dawn Op, Weather Control, Arcane Library. Not all rare but still hard enough to trade the needed amounts. -- Juho

Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote: >> "Linna Juho" <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote in message >> news:90mn5j$qir$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi... >>> I've never had the cards to try Tremere but a friend of mine managed >>> to put together a rather nice deck based on the old Burst of Sunlight >>> +Rotchreck combo. Also uses Amaranth (with 3 Muaziz in crypt). >> >> Not bad, I'm guessing Flak Jackets or Merrill to prevent the 1 agg? > > No, he's using Rotschreck to "prevent the agg." The strike never > actually happens, so the Burst doesn't send the victim to torpor, the > Rotschreck does. Heh, actually no. I think he meant how does Muaziz use Burst with Amaranth (since Rotchreck doesn't combo with Amaranth). So Muaziz has to prevent the Burst damage, and IMHO for is the way to go here. -- Juho

On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 18:39:51 GMT, Myrmidian <pha...@sfopera.com> wrote: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Yep. They have a lot more useful cards now, but close range is just >> hazardous to vampires' health; the first POT deck you run across will >> beat you with a very large stick and make you unhappy, since their >> actions are all at 0 stealth and you won't be able to move your >> intercept cards. And even with the agg damage, they DO tend to run >> out of blood. > >I think this one depends on whether you want to go all out with the >Horrid Form cards (as you mention below). There's nothing like >slapping down 5 or 6 of them plus a Body Arsenal (or Chiropteran >Marauder, now) against a Potence deck. If you have enough Horrid Forms to slap down 4-5 consistently, how do you actually intercept anything? :) I doubt I'd EVER go that route - awful lot of danger of jamming up on Horrid Forms. >"Okay, lessee, your guy tears off a signpost in order to hit mine for >6, I'm gonna play these 5 Horrids to prevent 5 per round and hit you >for 6 too. Oh, and with the Arsenal thats 7... aggravated. Oh, and >I'll drop a Taste of Vitae as well." That's great. But the next guy up is going to hit for the same amount, and you'll burn through Horrid Forms pretty damn quickly... or possibly not have any in hand. I don't think it's feasible to rely on Horrid Form in large quantities to prevent POT-deck damage. And anyone deciding to Dodge and Blur is going to ruin your vampire's day as well. :) It's just very risky to be at close range constantly. >It's just mean, and you aren't really adding any cards that you only >need against combat decks. Of course, if you want to be a total >bastard, you can go head-hunting for those Potence decks with Blood of >Acid. >(Note: I see a lot of combat in my playgroup here, so the BoAcid really >scares the hell out of everyone, including me when I see a Tzimisce >deck across from me and I just slapped down 5 Horrid Forms.) I usually toss one or two BoA in any Tzimisce deck to deter Potence from hitting me so often. Much better than Horrid Form in quantities, IMO, although you do actually have to get hit to burn them. But you also have room to intercept things as well. :) >> Let me throw in here that Spirit's Touch should be the backbone of any >> intercept deck's transient cards. At superior, the maneuver on the >> first round can save your butt whether you're planning offense OR >> defense with your deck. Sorely underestimated by many, IMO. > >Yep, but I tend to use it to make sure the range stays close. >Definitely nice, though, to have that option. Well, yeah. Offense or Defense. ;) >*snip the Tzimisce deck* >Holy doppelganger, Batman! I had a deck *very* similar to this one a >while ago (very little Vicissitude, tons of Aid from Bats). I ended up >changing out a lot of cards in favor of Vicissitude, though. It's just >so much fun for me. And scary. I still love the Blood Dolls, Hungry >Coyote and Palatial Estate though. Blood goes where I want it when I >want it. I thought about putting The Rack in there too, but that's >invited the whole table to come at me, rather than just my prey. Vicissitude is fun, but people playing S:CE really honks up your day when you've just spent a lot of blood on Toys. I ditched the Rack from this deck because, yeah, the whole table DOES come to get it. Same with the Fragment. >Hmm... I know you're not wanting to say, but I wonder if any of the >changes you will make to the deck will involve putting Vicissitude in >there. With cheaper aggravated damage, Haven Affinity and >PoMetamorphosis, the Fiends can, IMO, lay down the law as they should. Not in the way you're thinking. I will probably toss a few Marauders in there as opposed to Bats, because sometimes having an agg-poke is handy, and the Marauder can still be used to run away if necessary (note the 'free'). I could see dropping about 8 Bloodform (free) in there as well; Carrion Crows/Murder of Crows/Bloodform makes for a real convenient combat, although finding a press is difficult. Some Meld with the Land will undoubtedly make its way in there, just for its offensive bleed assistance. I've considered swapping out the Bats for Horrid Forms, but that's more risky and actually costs. I also considered a few Skin Traps just to tick someone off, but no more than 2-3. Haven Affinity is neat, but no. Same with the Path; especially since my VIC cards i'm seriously considering don't cost blood. Agg damage is nice, but then you HAVE to stop the self-rescue, and it's going to happen every turn until someone eats that vampire. >Previously you were only truly golden if you had out Meshenka and >Dragos with VIC. But now everybody gets in on the act. Of course, I >can't yet build the deck I'd like to build as I must wait for the >reprint to get the cards I need (don't we all?). ...or trade. Not that I would ever trade. ;) >Yeah, at my last tournament, I got some serious clumps of intercept >towards the end and blocked 2 (3?) Night Moves aimed at my predator to >try and keep him in the game. Didn't amount to much in the end, but it >was damn good fun. I was regularly slapping down inferior Night Moves at that tournament. Superior was beyond me and I knew it, but inferior was just a "catch me, catch me" type of deal. :) >Yessir. This is one of the problems I ran into in that final. My >predator and prey really weren't taking many actions because of me (I >think), but my grand-predator and grand-prey were going to town, >gaining pool and bringing out more minions. I pulled off to heal my >guys up a little bit, when I think I should have gone over and popped a >few minions cross-table to even things up. Very difficult. I don't EVER use Rush actions in an intercept deck; it's risking hand jam enough as it is. :) An interesting note is that on a 5-player table, if you vaporize your prey, your grandprey has a free hand and becomes strong, who victimizes your grandpredator, and then your predator becomes strong. It is wise to table-manage carefully sometimes. :) >And Revelations is definitely a card to play with when using this type >of deck. I've been thinking of trying to swap out a couple of cards >for Aggressive Tactics, but I wonder if it's worth it when I only have >2. Though it is another card where probably only my prey will care >about coming after me to remove it. Hmm... anyone have any thoughts on >that? Revelations has a good chance of making it into this deck. Aggressive Tactics... no. Expensive, and while it's probably worth it, someone else might decide i'm being too vicious and come pop the Tactics for my prey. Revelations is amusing to everyone else at the table though. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <90onvi$km4$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi>, Linna Juho <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote: > Xian <xi...@waste.org> wrote: > > Telepathic Tracking, Thaumaturgy strikes, > > Apportation, intercept, that's about it, isn't it? > > Ah, but you're thinking Tremere without for, right? I think they're a > bit too vulnerable. You can't count too heavily on the Rotchreck > combo. Precognition and Flak/Leather Jackets can work wonders. :) > So the for version would like plenty of hard to get cards like Burst, > Rotchreck, Dawn Op, Weather Control, Arcane Library. Not all rare but > still hard enough to trade the needed amounts. Hmm. I play something similar...I'm sure it's posted lots of places...my newsletters, Lasombra's website. dom/for/tha bleed with Dawn Op/Skin of Night/Weather Control. Probably the most efficient way to do it...though it's not intercept. Lots of Deflections, though. :) Xian -- But rain falls down and I feel cold A cold that sleeps within my heart It tears the earth and sun apart --New Order, "Shellshock" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On 7 Dec 2000 00:55:15 GMT, Linna Juho <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote: > > David Davila has an article > written summarizing our views, which can be found here: > > http://people.atl.mediaone.net/intj/jpa/strat_intercept02.htm Indeed a nice summary of intercept concepts, thanks. > Let me throw in here that Spirit's Touch should be the backbone of any > intercept deck's transient cards. At superior, the maneuver on the > first round can save your butt whether you're planning offense OR > defense with your deck. Sorely underestimated by many, IMO. Spirit's Touch is good but I still find it hard to fit in. The obligatory 6+ T.Misdirection and 6+ Eagle's Sight eat most of the transient slots. (Unless you're going for the heavy intercept which your deck represents, and I have to admit I never even thought of Tscimisce without vic.) > I have a Tzimisce deck (mentioned in another thread) that I'll post at > the bottom; it seems to be a very effective approach of its type. I'll have to try this out. Looks good, though I fear the 1 maneuver per combat doesn't do much against rush. Also S+B can be nasty because we're lacking bounce. Getting through is still possible since S+B will have about equal amount of stealth cards. And Elder Impersonation hurts intercept a lot. But I have to admit it has to be a tad stealthier bleed deck than usual to get past these guys regularly:P > [snip deck description] > >>1 Atonement >> >>2 Sport Bike >> >>1 Rumor Mill >>1 KRCG >>1 London Evening Star >> >>6 Eagle's Sight >>6 Telepathic Misdirection >>1 Spirit's Touch >> >>1 Mr. Winthrop > > I'd worry about not getting enough intercept out early enough with > this; the transient is only 13 cards, and TM costs a blood whether you > use it to bounce or to intercept. The locations are fine, but the > Sport Bikes and Winthrop are likely to be blocked; maybe have more of > those so you can keep trying to equip until someone's light intercept > runs dry, or more transient intercept so you can live until the > locations show up. It's enough to get one gun at start of game. So usually it's sufficient to get 1 small vamps out right away and they'll have a good chance to grab some eq. With one gun you'll be able to cycle your combat cards nicely and ususlly this is how the deck will start rolling. Not many decks can block your 5-6 equip actions on rounds the first few rounds, especially if some stealth or Disguised Weapon shows up. > I'm personally a fan of aggressive intercept; ie, trying to stop > EVERYTHING your prey does while surviving your predator as well, and > attempting to toast a few of your prey's vampires while you're at it. > I've seen intercept wall and horde decks "go" before, but they tend to > face rightward instead of leftward, and occasionally a prey who has > burned through 3 other players at the table will be too much to handle > when it's down to you and him. In addition, you will have plenty of > support from your grandprey when you're actively beating up his > predator, as opposed to the "wall" deck which usually earns a great > deal of scorn (and sometimes damage votes) from the grandprey who has > a predator with a free hand. I think the wall and horde styles tend > to just not put enough pressure on their prey, and thus unbalance the > table. I'm trying to make my intercept decks more and more aggressive too, but IMO you're better off if you wait at least the first 10 rounds before attacking your prey aggressively. Giving him some time to damage his prey and maybe making him believe you're playing a wallish deck. And luring him to influence bit more pool out than usual, to strengthen his attack. (decklist and explanations snipped) I need to find some room for 2 Dreams of the Sphinx though. Can't think of a non-weenie deck that shouldn't pack 2 Dreams. Pool + transfers or awesome hand cycling in the early game or just +2 pool in late game. I've been happy to draw them every time. Thanks for the thorough explanations. -- Juho

In article <90p198$g70$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi>, Linna Juho <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote: > I'll have to try this out. Looks good, though I fear the 1 maneuver > per combat doesn't do much against rush. Also S+B can be nasty That's one at the absolute worst. You get one from the Spirit's Touch, one from the Aid from Bats, and one from the Guard Dogs, if used, I believe. > because we're lacking bounce. Getting through is still possible > since S+B will have about equal amount of stealth cards. And Elder > Impersonation hurts intercept a lot. Never seen Elder Impersonation used that much, so perhaps I'm not. And once they get up to really high stelath, just Telepathic-ally Misdirect them! :) [ quoted text not captured ]

Xian <xi...@waste.org> wrote: > In article <90p198$g70$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi>, > Linna Juho <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote: >> I'll have to try this out. Looks good, though I fear the 1 maneuver >> per combat doesn't do much against rush. Also S+B can be nasty > > That's one at the absolute worst. You get one from the Spirit's Touch, > one from the Aid from Bats, and one from the Guard Dogs, if used, I > believe. But rush decks don't do anything at stealth and they also won't bleed you. (Unless your vamps are already in torpor or they're out of rush and trying to cycle desperately.) So the only maneuver left is from Bats. *splat* Bye-bye bat-hippie. >> because we're lacking bounce. Getting through is still possible >> since S+B will have about equal amount of stealth cards. And Elder >> Impersonation hurts intercept a lot. > > Never seen Elder Impersonation used that much, so perhaps I'm not. And > once they get up to really high stelath, just Telepathic-ally Misdirect > them! :) The original deck by Derek Ray that I was commenting on didn't use any T.Misdirections. But that's understandable, that amount of intercept should stop most S+B decks. I'd still add a few though.. those deflected +2 stealth bleeds are easily worth the blood. Also there's this OBF/aus stealth deck in our playgroup that bleeds a steady 3 (pulse or IC member) with enough stealth. It wouldn't be so nasty if it didn't pack so many Spying Missions. Damn those can be frustrating for a deflecting deck. Someone should errata them unstackable :P -- Juho

In article <B654553E.115B%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote: > No, he's using Rotschreck to "prevent the agg." The strike never > actually happens, so the Burst doesn't send the victim to torpor, the > Rotschreck does. Oh, duh. I just wasn't paying attention. Thanks for smacking me upside the head. :) OF course, I'd probably play with a little extra damage prevent, just in case I don't have the Rotschreck in hand at the time... [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <90ohr4$nd2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote: > In article <B654553E.115B%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, > Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote: > > No, he's using Rotschreck to "prevent the agg." The strike never > > actually happens, so the Burst doesn't send the victim to torpor, the > > Rotschreck does. > > Oh, duh. I just wasn't paying attention. Thanks for smacking me > upside the head. :) > > OF course, I'd probably play with a little extra damage prevent, just > in case I don't have the Rotschreck in hand at the time... > > Xian I thought there was a rule saying that you cannot prevent damage from your own strikes?? [ quoted text not captured ]

> In article <B654553E.115B%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, > Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote: >> No, he's using Rotschreck to "prevent the agg." The strike never >> actually happens, so the Burst doesn't send the victim to torpor, the >> Rotschreck does. > > Oh, duh. I just wasn't paying attention. Thanks for smacking me > upside the head. :) > > OF course, I'd probably play with a little extra damage prevent, just > in case I don't have the Rotschreck in hand at the time... Well, with 3 Mua-Cheezes, some scattered Skins of Rock might help out. Go Tha-For! =) [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I think there's a ruling that "a strike" is one from the opposing minion, so "prevent all damage from one strike" or "prevent all damage from all strikes" don't prevent damage from your own strikes, if any. You can still use the Flak Jacket or Skin of Rock, etc. to just "Prevent 1 Damage." [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <90oj78$ok9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, cantila <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote: > In article <90ohr4$nd2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [snip] > I thought there was a rule saying that you cannot prevent damage from > your own strikes?? No rule to that effect. But, you can't play cards that state "Prevent x damage from a strike" to prevent damage from your strike, ala Skin of Steel. Joe C. - V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC Editor: Tzimisce Clan Newsletter www.warghoul.com [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >Linna Juho <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote: > >So next up was Tscimisce. I thought that with their innate source > >of aggravated damage they'd prove more consistent. Although it wasn't > >necessary to get gear anymore I had to stay at close range, which > >brought new problems like Potence. In many games all my Tscimisce > >except maybe Dragos/Meshenka ran out of blood and I was slowly > >ousted. > > Yep. They have a lot more useful cards now, but close range is just > hazardous to vampires' health; the first POT deck you run across will > beat you with a very large stick and make you unhappy, since their > actions are all at 0 stealth and you won't be able to move your > intercept cards. And even with the agg damage, they DO tend to run > out of blood. I think this one depends on whether you want to go all out with the Horrid Form cards (as you mention below). There's nothing like slapping down 5 or 6 of them plus a Body Arsenal (or Chiropteran Marauder, now) against a Potence deck. "Okay, lessee, your guy tears off a signpost in order to hit mine for 6, I'm gonna play these 5 Horrids to prevent 5 per round and hit you for 6 too. Oh, and with the Arsenal thats 7... aggravated. Oh, and I'll drop a Taste of Vitae as well." It's just mean, and you aren't really adding any cards that you only need against combat decks. Of course, if you want to be a total bastard, you can go head-hunting for those Potence decks with Blood of Acid. (Note: I see a lot of combat in my playgroup here, so the BoAcid really scares the hell out of everyone, including me when I see a Tzimisce deck across from me and I just slapped down 5 Horrid Forms.) And you're absolutely right about SW helping them a lot. Path of Metamorphosis alone makes all those Horrid Forms free. And the Tzimisce are *the* clan to be able to protect it. > Let me throw in here that Spirit's Touch should be the backbone of any > intercept deck's transient cards. At superior, the maneuver on the > first round can save your butt whether you're planning offense OR > defense with your deck. Sorely underestimated by many, IMO. Yep, but I tend to use it to make sure the range stays close. Definitely nice, though, to have that option. > I have a Tzimisce deck (mentioned in another thread) that I'll post at > the bottom; it seems to be a very effective approach of its type. *snip a bunch of things I agree with* > This is the deck I played at the War Room tourney a year ago and took > to the finals in 3rd place; I suffered from seating position, as the > 1st and 2nd place players who had stealth actions both sat as far away > from me as they could, and I was left as the prey of a POT Rush deck > and the predator of a light intercept deck itself. Ouch. Explanation > and theory at bottom. (Yes, the deck is pre-Sabbat War. I am not > telling what changes I'm making to it yet, other than the new vamps > and some new cards helped it out enormously.) *snip the Tzimisce deck* Holy doppelganger, Batman! I had a deck *very* similar to this one a while ago (very little Vicissitude, tons of Aid from Bats). I ended up changing out a lot of cards in favor of Vicissitude, though. It's just so much fun for me. And scary. I still love the Blood Dolls, Hungry Coyote and Palatial Estate though. Blood goes where I want it when I want it. I thought about putting The Rack in there too, but that's invited the whole table to come at me, rather than just my prey. > ...First thing you'll notice is the total lack of Vicissitude, and the > fact that absolutely none of my cards aside from Pulse and Murder cost > any blood whatsoever. :) This means that I can use the Blood Dolls > freely, and once the Hungry Coyote comes out, I can tap out guys who > AREN'T Pulsed and have them hunt for 2, and have a nasty blood-gain > machine going that is difficult to get rid of since you can't bleed or > vote at it. It is sort of amusing to get Dragos out though, who will > be spending no blood for my free combat cards. :) Hmm... I know you're not wanting to say, but I wonder if any of the changes you will make to the deck will involve putting Vicissitude in there. With cheaper aggravated damage, Haven Affinity and PoMetamorphosis, the Fiends can, IMO, lay down the law as they should. Previously you were only truly golden if you had out Meshenka and Dragos with VIC. But now everybody gets in on the act. Of course, I can't yet build the deck I'd like to build as I must wait for the reprint to get the cards I need (don't we all?). > Second thing is the total lack of permanent intercept, except for > Anton. It takes time to recruit Raven Spies, Revenants, and the like; > while this deck could probably do just as well with a few tossed in, > if it's also taking recruit actions for Murder of Crows, it could take > awhile to be functional. As it stands, it's effective (although not > very damaging) out of the box - the first guy out can slap around > everything his prey does. > > The transient intercept is 24 base cards with the Cat's Guidance as an > optional extra; total intercept available is generally +3/+4 at any > given moment, enough to deal with Forgotten Labyrinth and MORE than > enough to deal with the typical Lost in Crowds/Faceless Night. It > packs 8 Eagle's Sights, which are very important to have in stopping > your prey's actions; especially that pesky +1 stealth bleed for the > oust. Yeah, at my last tournament, I got some serious clumps of intercept towards the end and blocked 2 (3?) Night Moves aimed at my predator to try and keep him in the game. Didn't amount to much in the end, but it was damn good fun. *snip more things I agree with* > There are 25 untap cards in the deck. That should be plenty to ensure > that you can tap out taking actions and still be able to deal with > everything your predator AND prey do. And that's about it. It's > important to stop almost everything you can so as to move through your > deck; otherwise you tend to jam up on something or other. Yessir. This is one of the problems I ran into in that final. My predator and prey really weren't taking many actions because of me (I think), but my grand-predator and grand-prey were going to town, gaining pool and bringing out more minions. I pulled off to heal my guys up a little bit, when I think I should have gone over and popped a few minions cross-table to even things up. And Revelations is definitely a card to play with when using this type of deck. I've been thinking of trying to swap out a couple of cards for Aggressive Tactics, but I wonder if it's worth it when I only have 2. Though it is another card where probably only my prey will care about coming after me to remove it. Hmm... anyone have any thoughts on that? p. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <90p7a0$k6o$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi>, Linna Juho <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote: > But rush decks don't do anything at stealth and they also won't bleed > you. (Unless your vamps are already in torpor or they're out of rush > and trying to cycle desperately.) See, kids...this is what happens when I only give a cursory read to things and post from work. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. > The original deck by Derek Ray that I was commenting on didn't use any > T.Misdirections. But that's understandable, that amount of intercept > should stop most S+B decks. > I'd still add a few though.. those deflected +2 stealth bleeds are > easily worth the blood. Definitely > Also there's this OBF/aus stealth deck in our playgroup that bleeds a > steady 3 (pulse or IC member) with enough stealth. It wouldn't be so > nasty if it didn't pack so many Spying Missions. Damn those can be > frustrating for a deflecting deck. Someone should errata them > unstackable :P Intriguing concept. I'll have to think about it. :) Xian -- But rain falls down and I feel cold A cold that sleeps within my heart It tears the earth and sun apart --New Order, "Shellshock" [ quoted text not captured ]

"Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> a écrit dans le message news: B654553E.115B%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu... > > > > > > "Linna Juho" <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote in message > > news:90mn5j$qir$1...@baker.cc.tut.fi... > >> I've never had the cards to try Tremere but a friend of mine managed > >> to put together a rather nice deck based on the old Burst of Sunlight > >> +Rotchreck combo. Also uses Amaranth (with 3 Muaziz in crypt). > > > > Not bad, I'm guessing Flak Jackets or Merrill to prevent the 1 agg? > > No, he's using Rotschreck to "prevent the agg." The strike never > actually happens, so the Burst doesn't send the victim to torpor, the > Rotschreck does. > Humm... Well, sorry but I don't get it. The opposing vampire is not trying to inflict aggravated damage, so how can you play a Rotschreck in this situation? Stabe

"Stabe" <gilles....@wanadoo.fr> wrote: > Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> a écrit dans le message news: > > > "Linna Juho" <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote > > >> deck based on the old Burst of Sunlight > > >> +Rotchreck combo. > > > I'm guessing Flak Jackets or Merrill to prevent the 1 agg? > > > > No, he's using Rotschreck to "prevent the agg." The strike never > > actually happens, so the Burst doesn't send the victim to torpor, > > the Rotschreck does. > > Humm... Well, sorry but I don't get it. The opposing vampire is not > trying to inflict aggravated damage, so how can you play a Rotschreck > in this situation? Rotschreck is played when "a minion" is attempting to use aggravated damage on "a vampire. The above situation meets this requirement, so Rotschreck can be played. When played, Rotschreck sends "That vampire" to torpor. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message news: 90qros$h3n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... > "Stabe" <gilles....@wanadoo.fr> wrote: > > Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> a écrit dans le message news: > > > > "Linna Juho" <ju...@cc.tut.fi> wrote > > > >> deck based on the old Burst of Sunlight > > > >> +Rotchreck combo. > > > > I'm guessing Flak Jackets or Merrill to prevent the 1 agg? > > > > > > No, he's using Rotschreck to "prevent the agg." The strike never > > > actually happens, so the Burst doesn't send the victim to torpor, > > > the Rotschreck does. > > > > Humm... Well, sorry but I don't get it. The opposing vampire is not > > trying to inflict aggravated damage, so how can you play a Rotschreck > > in this situation? > > Rotschreck is played when "a minion" is attempting to use > aggravated damage on "a vampire. > > The above situation meets this requirement, so Rotschreck can > be played. When played, Rotschreck sends "That vampire" to > torpor. Dooohhh. My mistake. Thanks for the clarification. He, he he, my Tremere deck will see some change tonight! Stabe

>> > Telepathic Tracking, Thaumaturgy strikes, >> > Apportation, intercept, that's about it, isn't it? >> >> Ah, but you're thinking Tremere without for, right? I think they're a >> bit too vulnerable. You can't count too heavily on the Rotchreck >> combo. > >Precognition and Flak/Leather Jackets can work wonders. :) If you're playing Bursts and Rotchrecks and you're up for it, you can always throw in Talaq and (gasp!) Order of Hermes Cabal. Never thought they'd be useful. Talaq can use the Bursts without taking any of the damage, and the Order does consistent agg damage (as in you don't need a card) which works okay with Rotchreck. Of course you'll probably need to rely on KRCG/London Evening Star/ Rumour Mill for the intercept. Also, it could be a problem if someone steals the Order, but then again you ARE playing an intercept deck! Halcyan 2

>You've pretty much hit it on the head here. The Toreador >intercept/gun/Blur deck sounds wonderful in practice, but trying to >actually get the guns on them is just a worthless cause. Nobody is >usually willing to let anyone with Celerity get a gun; heck, most >people will block gun actions on principle, because guns are a real >nuisance once they come out. And a deck relying on such as Masika >suffers from "intercept wall trouble", where one Elder Intervention, >Pentex Subversion, Hostile Takeover, or the like will completely toast >your deck. Well besides going for obfuscate, the new Pier 13 will help, though you might have problems with getting the Pier 13 in the first place. You can always pack a Zip Gun if you need one in a pinch. BTW: Just thought of it. How about Vast Wealth? If your deck mainly uses gun equipment, the Vast Wealth might help tremendously with equipping (since if blocked, it doesn't waste your gun card). >The other problem the Toreador have is lack of convenient untap. If >they DO use the source of untap available to them (Majesty) Um...there's Alexandra? Besides the 11 cap, the Toreador have quite a stable of good Princes (for 2nd Tradition). How about trying something similar but with the !Toreador? At least you have the new card of Patronage, which will help with untapping... Halcyan 2

On 10 Dec 2000 02:01:56 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: >>You've pretty much hit it on the head here. The Toreador >>intercept/gun/Blur deck sounds wonderful in practice, but trying to >>actually get the guns on them is just a worthless cause. Nobody is >>usually willing to let anyone with Celerity get a gun; heck, most >>people will block gun actions on principle, because guns are a real >>nuisance once they come out. And a deck relying on such as Masika >>suffers from "intercept wall trouble", where one Elder Intervention, >>Pentex Subversion, Hostile Takeover, or the like will completely toast >>your deck. > >Well besides going for obfuscate, the new Pier 13 will help, though you might >have problems with getting the Pier 13 in the first place. You can always pack >a Zip Gun if you need one in a pinch. Expect every Pier 13 action to be blocked if possible. :) Successfully using Pier 13 is going to require +2 to +3 stealth minimum, or no intercept available when you actually get it out. That isn't usually impossible to arrange, but it's not going to be much easier for the Tories than before; the problem is that Pier 13 is so obviously a key component of an equipment deck, it's not difficult to decide to burn your Direct Intervention or last Wake and intercept card to make sure it gets stopped and you don't have a flood of .44s coming into play while your prey happily Minion Tap/5ths to pay for them all. The big help Pier 13 provides is that you only have to get away with the equip action ONCE; anything else you need comes into play automatically after that. This makes Alacrity worth it for a one-time shot, or you can pick and choose your time carefully to try the Pier 13 action. :) Zip Gun... well.. if you're going for Masika and the intercept wall, he needs more than a Zip Gun as a deterrent. Usually I see him with an Assault Rifle and a handful of Pursuit/Blur. Norm? ;) >BTW: Just thought of it. How about Vast Wealth? If your deck mainly uses gun >equipment, the Vast Wealth might help tremendously with equipping (since if >blocked, it doesn't waste your gun card). Convenient, if you get the Vast Wealth on top of your deck. It's not unique, so if you include 3 or 4 to make sure you get one high up, you can at least drop them on multiple minions, but this starts to burn your master card slots. It is a better option than just going after the gun in the first place, but tougher to guarantee being available. >>The other problem the Toreador have is lack of convenient untap. If >>they DO use the source of untap available to them (Majesty) > >Um...there's Alexandra? Besides the 11 cap, the Toreador have quite a stable of >good Princes (for 2nd Tradition). Well, I was thinking DEFENSIVE untap along the lines of Guard Dogs, Cat's Guidance, and 2nd Tradition. Alexandra doesn't have access to 2nd Tradition, so bringing her out in an intercept-wall deck would pretty much be a self-bleed for 11 until you managed to Minion Tap her. The Toreador Princes don't SUCK, but they're not suitable for fighting; Tatiana only has inferior cel, and Anson and Klaus only have inferior aus. Francois has AUS CEL and the obf you need for Disguised Weapon, but he's a 10-cap and a big-ass target as soon as he comes out because of his special. Marcellus has AUS CEL, but doesn't have the PRE to use Majesty or to bleed, which he might need to once in awhile. Anneke is an interceptor par excellence, but again is a 10-cap and doesn't have the OBF. :( Andreas is actually an excellent option, even though he's only a Primogen; AUS/CEL/PRE, and his special and an Enhanced Senses puts you at +3 intercept, which is the bare minimum you want to be able to generate at any time. He can't untap with 2nd Tradition though; more of the untap weakness. You could go the Anneke/Francois route and drop an OBF skill card on Anneke eventually (or just get the extra gun with Francois and have Anneke fetch it from HIM later), which seems safest - but you won't have both of them out in the early going, and someone with a quick "hose this vampire" card will stomp you, and might be able to do it later as well since you're relying on such huge-ass monkeys. >How about trying something similar but with the !Toreador? At least you have >the new card of Patronage, which will help with untapping... Patronage, also only on your turn, and it's a +1 stealth action that many people will try to block. :) Otherwise, the !Toreador are much better with the vampire draw; the big guys have lots more AUS/CEL available except for Miller, who didn't need it anyway, and Donatien, who is still a bad, bad man as a Cardinal for 9. The advantage with the !Tories is that you aren't tempted to rely on 2nd Tradition, so you can lower your crypt size by a good chunk and include a pile of Forced Awakening, Enhanced Senses, Spirit's Touch, and Eagle's Sight. :) Or Sport Bikes if your art-posers are the leather type. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Expect every Pier 13 action to be blocked if possible. :) >Successfully using Pier 13 is going to require +2 to +3 stealth >minimum, or no intercept available when you actually get it out. That >isn't usually impossible to arrange, but it's not going to be much >easier for the Tories than before; the problem is that Pier 13 is so >obviously a key component of an equipment deck, it's not difficult to >decide to burn your Direct Intervention or last Wake and intercept >card to make sure it gets stopped and you don't have a flood of .44s >coming into play while your prey happily Minion Tap/5ths to pay for >them all. > >The big help Pier 13 provides is that you only have to get away with >the equip action ONCE; anything else you need comes into play >automatically after that. This makes Alacrity worth it for a one-time >shot, or you can pick and choose your time carefully to try the Pier >13 action. :) While not awfully reliable (and another waste of Master slots), I forgot to mention Toreador Grand Ball. One of the only ways to make a truly unblockable action! Use it to get that Pier 13 through! Also helps with the other gun equips too. Also, it's not unique and you can choose the same vampire to not untap for all of them. Sure other people may try to burn them, but once again that's why you have an intercept deck! Halcyan 2

In article <05f63tgsm307l4l9o...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes >Successfully using Pier 13 is going to require +2 to +3 stealth >minimum, or no intercept available when you actually get it out. That >isn't usually impossible to arrange, but it's not going to be much >easier for the Tories than before; Toreador Grand Ball with a weenie. *salivates* [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Yep. They have a lot more useful cards now, but close range is > > > just hazardous to vampires' health; the first POT deck you run > > > across will beat you with a very large stick and make you > > > unhappy, since their actions are all at 0 stealth and you won't > > > be able to move your intercept cards. And even with the agg > > > damage, they DO tend to run out of blood. > > > > I think this one depends on whether you want to go all out with the > > Horrid Form cards (as you mention below). There's nothing like > > slapping down 5 or 6 of them plus a Body Arsenal (or Chiropteran > > Marauder, now) against a Potence deck. > > If you have enough Horrid Forms to slap down 4-5 consistently, how do > you actually intercept anything? :) I doubt I'd EVER go that route - > awful lot of danger of jamming up on Horrid Forms. I know what you mean. I can't say I slap down 4-5 every time. Usually it's 1 or 2. It's only when I run into that Potence deck that I'm trying to go for 4-5. It's damn hard for me to hold onto cards, but I know it's worth it for that situation. That's when I try to just prevent enough that I'm going to be really hurt after combat, but still ready, and his guy is going to not just be crispy, but ash. If I can manage that once or twice, then the Potence deck usually heads off in another direction. This deck is far less effective in my playgroup, where I see more combat. (In the pickup games prior to the tourney, I played this deck about 4 times to tweak it. It didn't garner a single VP, and I almost didn't play it in the tournament. I stuck to the thought that I'd see less combat in the event, so I went with it. Got to the final. *shrug*) > >"Okay, lessee, your guy tears off a signpost in order to hit mine for > >6, I'm gonna play these 5 Horrids to prevent 5 per round and hit you > >for 6 too. Oh, and with the Arsenal thats 7... aggravated. Oh, and > >I'll drop a Taste of Vitae as well." > > That's great. But the next guy up is going to hit for the same > amount, and you'll burn through Horrid Forms pretty damn quickly... or > possibly not have any in hand. I don't think it's feasible to rely on > Horrid Form in large quantities to prevent POT-deck damage. No, definitely not. What I'm hoping for is: 1) I'm not sitting with a table of POT-decks. =) 2) I can scare the POT-deck off by burning one of his guys in a fight in which I come through relatively unscathed. There are a couple of Leather Jackets in the deck as well, which can help me if I need them. But I will say that if he doesn't turn away, I'm going to be in trouble. With the aggravated damage I can still do, it'll hurt us both, though, and that's another asset to help nudge the POT-deck away. I've got some guys in the group that like to hold grudges though (damn you), and will not take kindly to any sort of defending yourself. > And anyone deciding to Dodge and Blur is going to ruin your vampire's > day as well. :) It's just very risky to be at close range > constantly. True, but I don't see much of that. If I did, I'm sure I'd throw in more Scorpion Stings. > > It's just mean, and you aren't really adding any cards that you only > > need against combat decks. Of course, if you want to be a total > > bastard, you can go head-hunting for those Potence decks with Blood > > of Acid. > > (Note: I see a lot of combat in my playgroup here, so the BoAcid > > really scares the hell out of everyone, including me when I see a > > Tzimisce deck across from me and I just slapped down 5 Horrid > > Forms.) > > I usually toss one or two BoA in any Tzimisce deck to deter Potence > from hitting me so often. Much better than Horrid Form in quantities, > IMO, although you do actually have to get hit to burn them. But you > also have room to intercept things as well. :) Yeah, I think I only have 1 in there now, but I may add another. Same dilemma: gotta be able to intercept. > > *snip the Tzimisce deck* > > Holy doppelganger, Batman! I had a deck *very* similar to this one > > a while ago (very little Vicissitude, tons of Aid from Bats). I > > ended up changing out a lot of cards in favor of Vicissitude, > > though. It's just so much fun for me. And scary. I still love > > the Blood Dolls, Hungry Coyote and Palatial Estate though. Blood > > goes where I want it when I want it. I thought about putting The > > Rack in there too, but that's invited the whole table to come at > > me, rather than just my prey. > > Vicissitude is fun, but people playing S:CE really honks up your day > when you've just spent a lot of blood on Toys. I ditched the Rack > from this deck because, yeah, the whole table DOES come to get it. > Same with the Fragment. Yep. Damn them. Telepathic Tracking will help, especially since the Horrid Forms (and most of the Vicissitude cards) will still be in effect. Still, adding in enough of those takes away from something else. Geh. > >Hmm... I know you're not wanting to say, but I wonder if any of the > >changes you will make to the deck will involve putting Vicissitude in > >there. With cheaper aggravated damage, Haven Affinity and > >PoMetamorphosis, the Fiends can, IMO, lay down the law as they > >should. > > Not in the way you're thinking. I will probably toss a few Marauders > in there as opposed to Bats, because sometimes having an agg-poke is > handy, and the Marauder can still be used to run away if necessary > (note the 'free'). I could see dropping about 8 Bloodform (free) in > there as well; Carrion Crows/Murder of Crows/Bloodform makes for a > real convenient combat, although finding a press is difficult. Some > Meld with the Land will undoubtedly make its way in there, just for > its offensive bleed assistance. Yeah, I'll have to get my hands on more SW cards before I start tinkering with a ton of new cards. Right now I'm still at the stage where I'm just adding a few here and there to enhance already-existing decks. I might also have to make a deck with those Bloodforms. Fun. > I've considered swapping out the Bats for Horrid Forms, but that's > more risky and actually costs. I also considered a few Skin Traps > just to tick someone off, but no more than 2-3. > > Haven Affinity is neat, but no. Same with the Path; especially since > my VIC cards i'm seriously considering don't cost blood. Agg damage > is nice, but then you HAVE to stop the self-rescue, and it's going to > happen every turn until someone eats that vampire. Yeah, if you don't burn them outright in combat. With the Horrid Forms being free, then your choice of either Chiropteran Marauder or Body Arsenal for only 1 blood, you can have 3-4 aggravated hand damage easily. > >Previously you were only truly golden if you had out Meshenka and > >Dragos with VIC. But now everybody gets in on the act. Of course, I > >can't yet build the deck I'd like to build as I must wait for the > >reprint to get the cards I need (don't we all?). > > ...or trade. Not that I would ever trade. ;) Misers, all of you. Heh.. > >Yessir. This is one of the problems I ran into in that final. My > >predator and prey really weren't taking many actions because of me (I > >think), but my grand-predator and grand-prey were going to town, > >gaining pool and bringing out more minions. I pulled off to heal my > >guys up a little bit, when I think I should have gone over and > >popped a few minions cross-table to even things up. > > Very difficult. I don't EVER use Rush actions in an intercept deck; > it's risking hand jam enough as it is. :) Oh no. I meant via the Eagle's Sight cards. > An interesting note is > that on a 5-player table, if you vaporize your prey, your grandprey > has a free hand and becomes strong, who victimizes your grandpredator, > and then your predator becomes strong. It is wise to table-manage > carefully sometimes. :) Yep. By the end of the game I had Dragos and Anton with 3 and 2 bleeds respectively, and could add to them with Changeling. After taking out my prey's minions, I really needed to get through his pool faster to keep my grand-predator from building up. The horrible cycle I kept seeing was I bleed for 3 with Dragos, my prey deflects, his prey deflects, his prey deflects, my predator has to eat the bleed. Everyone kept deflecting the bleeds until they hit either me or my predator, and after a couple of times they didn't come to me. > > And Revelations is definitely a card to play with when using this > > type of deck. I've been thinking of trying to swap out a couple of > > cards for Aggressive Tactics, but I wonder if it's worth it when I > > only have 2. Though it is another card where probably only my prey > > will care about coming after me to remove it. Hmm... anyone have > > any thoughts on that? > > Revelations has a good chance of making it into this deck. Aggressive > Tactics... no. Expensive, and while it's probably worth it, someone > else might decide i'm being too vicious and come pop the Tactics for > my prey. Revelations is amusing to everyone else at the table though. Yeah, I think the other thing Revelations has going is that my grand- prey might actually want to keep it, and do what he can to make sure it stays out there. [ quoted text not captured ]