"Play when action is announced" querry

An issue came up in our last tournament. An individual announced a bleed action, playing a bleed modifier and sleeping mind at the same time as announcing the bleed. eg I bleed you for 5 (2 inate and sup forshadowing destruction) as a sleeping mind. Laying down all cards as he announced the action. This was objected to by the person being bled. Claiming it was a breech of the "play when action is announced" clause. The prson being bled stated that the action was to bleed for 2 and when it was modified by the bleed modifier, broke the ability to play a sleeping mind. This objection was supported buy a judge that was observing the game. I am also a judge and disagree with this rulling, I feel that as the card was played as the action was anounced as required buy the sleeping mind, this was a valid modifier. As I was the person bleeding, I defered to the observer as any view I had on the matter was deemed to be self benifiting and not in the interest of fair play. I ask LSJ that you clairify this issue for me. Is it possible to play the sleeping mind in the above situation.

If you read your post correctly then the player did wrong. He can play the bleed action and then The Sleeping Mind, then the bleed mod. He cannot play the bleed action, followed by the bleed mod and then The Sleeping Mind. ------------------------- Cambridge by Night. http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html

Neandertal wrote: > > An issue came up in our last tournament. An individual announced a > bleed action, playing a bleed modifier and sleeping mind at the same > time as announcing the bleed. Note: Cards are never played at the same time, but sequentially. > eg > I bleed you for 5 (2 inate and sup forshadowing destruction) as a > sleeping mind. Laying down all cards as he announced the action. > > This was objected to by the person being bled. Claiming it was a > breech of the "play when action is announced" clause. The prson being > bled stated that the action was to bleed for 2 and when it was > modified by the bleed modifier, broke the ability to play a sleeping > mind. This objection was supported buy a judge that was observing the > game. The action declaration does not end until the acting player says so. So the acting player can play as many (legally-playable) action modifiers as he chooses during the declaration of the action. [...] Greetings, Damnans

Colin Goodman wrote: [...] > He cannot play the bleed action, followed by the bleed mod and then The > Sleeping Mind. Why not? The action is still in the action declaration step. Name: The Sleeping Mind [Sabbat:C, SW:C] Cardtype: Action Modifier Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Dominate Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. [dom] Choose a tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to block this action. [DOM] Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this action. Greetings, Damnans

>> He cannot play the bleed action, followed by the bleed mod and then The >> Sleeping Mind. > >Why not? The action is still in the action declaration step. I've always read "Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced." to be you nominate your action and then you play this card. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] You can play SM when the action is announced. The illegal part above seems to be the play of Foreshadowing of Destruction as the action is announced. FoD cannot be played as the action is announced. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Hmm... This would appear to contradict the Anarchs Rulebook, specifically: <snip> 6.2. Taking an Action Any ready untapped minion you control can take an action. The procedure for resolving an action is described in the following sections. Note that action modifiers and reaction cards can be played at any time in this process as appropriate, subject to the restrictions on adding stealth and intercept listed below and the restrictions against the same minion playing the same action modifier or reaction card more than once (see Minion Cards, sec. 1.6.3), and following the same sequencing strictures of all effects (see Sequencing, sec. 1.6.1.6). Summary of the Course of an Action *The action is declared, and the card used for the action (action card, equipment, etc.) is played, if any. Tap the minion who is taking the action (the "acting minion"). </snip> My confusion is that the dot point (above) easily falls within the time described in: "Note that action modifiers and reaction cards can be played at any time in this process as appropriate...". Is not this first point 'any time'? If so, then any (non-stealth) action modifier should be able to be played when the action is declared, including (as required) those that must be played then. The funny thing is that this question came up in a game yesterday and is an interesting coincidence (unless of course 'Neandertal' is an Aussie (and didn't let me know his newsgroup handle)! :) I said that I would ask this question when I next got online, and when I next got online, there was the question.. Cheers! "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3F47DA92...@white-wolf.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

To me, the action is no longer in the "declare during action" stage only when the defending methuselah states whether or not he/she is blocking and with whom. I think of it like combat. Before range is chosen cards can be played only before manuvers are settled. Same thing here, but the "Before Range" step is the action declaration step. I think it perfectly fine the way he did it, but if you want to be picky, just rearange the order in which the cards were played, ie. Bleed action, Sleeping Mind, then Foreshadowing. Since you can play the action modifier whenever you want after the action is declared, he could have done it that way. If it is a question of drawing into the Sleeping Mind, then I would say that redraw into the hand happens immediatly after the card is played (in theory), so the player could claim his opponent didn't give him enough time to declare everything. Dr. Fish

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:20:18 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >You can play S[leeping] M[ind] when the action is announced. > >The illegal part above seems to be the play of Foreshadowing of >Destruction as the action is announced. FoD cannot be played as >the action is announced. To clarify: From my own memory and a refesher course i read from doing a google groups search: ONLY effects that explicitly say '(only) usable as an action is announced' are playable during the 'as an action is announced' step. Other effects that are playable during an action must wait until after the 'as an action is announced' step. EXCEPT things that don't actually effect the action, for example, Wake with Evening's Freshness. You seem to be allowed to play WwEF and then a Rewind Time even before the 'as an action is announced' step. **** From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) Subject: Re: LSJ : Rewind Time Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Date: 2001-11-12 11:06:37 PST Shaun McIsaac wrote: > Player A announces GtU at inferior. > > 1) Should Player A play seduction now, or does B have his opportunity > to play Rewind Time before the seduction could be played? The latter. > 2) If B has a tapped vampire with at least 2 blood and at least tem, > can he Wake With Evening's Freshness that vamp and play Rewind Time > (tem version), or has his window of opportunity already passed -- thus > making the True Brujah too late to rewind time? The former. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ **** can you confirm/deny please Mr. J, LS? salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:29:59 +1000, "Blargleman" <glen_r...@optusnet.com.au> scrawled: >The funny thing is that this question came up in a game yesterday and is an >interesting coincidence (unless of course 'Neandertal' is an Aussie (and >didn't let me know his newsgroup handle)! :) I said that I would ask this >question when I next got online, and when I next got online, there was the >question.. > >Cheers! his email address is ...@cqnet.com.au which suggests to me that he is indeed an aussie. aussie. aussie. oi. oi. oi. [ quoted text not captured ]

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote > From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) > Subject: Re: LSJ : Rewind Time > Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad > Date: 2001-11-12 11:06:37 PST (snip) > > 2) If B has a tapped vampire with at least 2 blood and at least tem, > > can he Wake With Evening's Freshness that vamp and play Rewind Time > > (tem version), or has his window of opportunity already passed -- thus > > making the True Brujah too late to rewind time? > > The former. > > -- > LSJ HEY !? me thought you had to be untapped all the time to play rewind time ?

> > > 2) If B has a tapped vampire with at least 2 blood and at least tem, > > > can he Wake With Evening's Freshness that vamp and play Rewind Time > > > (tem version), or has his window of opportunity already passed -- thus > > > making the True Brujah too late to rewind time? It is never too late for anything when you have Temporis... ;-) > HEY !? me thought you had to be untapped all the time to play rewind time ? Why would that be ? Rewind Time is a reaction like any other, so you just have to be able to react "as if untapped", right ? Orpheus

"Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> wrote > > HEY !? me thought you had to be untapped all the time to play rewind time > > Why would that be ? Rewind Time is a reaction like any other, so you just > have to be able to react "as if untapped", right ? > > Orpheus Oh i remember : it's only when you want to cancel a master card because there is no action to react to.

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:34:22 +0200, "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> scrawled: >HEY !? me thought you had to be untapped all the time to play rewind time ? i know you have to be genuinely untapped to play RW at superior TEM. Because the card itself lets you play it (a reaction card) during a master phase, when normally you wouldn't be allowed to play a reaction card (because there was no action to react to), whereas wake and forced awake have no special text on them allowing them to be played when there is no action, so you can't play a wake/forced awake to allow you to play a RW at superior TEM if the vampire is tapped. [ quoted text not captured ]

Blargleman wrote: > My confusion is that the dot point (above) easily falls within the time > described in: "Note that action modifiers and reaction cards can be played > at any time in this process as appropriate...". Is not this first point 'any > time'? If so, then any (non-stealth) action modifier should be able to be > played when the action is declared, including (as required) those that must > be played then. It is "at any time" but it is not "as appropriate". Since it is not an "as announced" modifier, it cannot be played "as announced", but can only be played after the action is announced. [ quoted text not captured ]

Thank you LSJ for your prompt reply. I understand your rulling and now understand that there are stages to playing actions and action modifiers, not all playable at once. many thanks

LSJ expounded: > Blargleman wrote: > > My confusion is that the dot point (above) easily falls within the time > > described in: "Note that action modifiers and reaction cards can be played > > at any time in this process as appropriate...". Is not this first point 'any > > time'? If so, then any (non-stealth) action modifier should be able to be > > played when the action is declared, including (as required) those that must > > be played then. > > It is "at any time" but it is not "as appropriate". > Since it is not an "as announced" modifier, it cannot be played "as > announced", but can only be played after the action is announced. I don't understand this at all. I suppose it doesn't really matter so long as everyone knows and plays the same but without the specific ruling I can't see why they would play like this. It certainly isn't clear (or even implied) in the rules that actions cannot be modified as they are declared -Sleeping Mind REQUIRES it- and FoS doesn't in any way indicate that it can't be played then. How should I distinguish between a card I can play whenever I like in the process of taking an action and one that I can't if it doesn't say? In other words: what is your definition of "appropriate"?

Timlagor wrote: > How should I distinguish between a card I can play whenever I like in > the process of taking an action and one that I can't if it doesn't say? > In other words: what is your definition of "appropriate"? Card text. Cards are played one at a time. Action Modifiers cannot be played before the action is announced, so must be played after. Some have special text requiring them to be played as the action is announced, so can be. See also Sudden and playing cards "as" other cards are played (not normally allowed). [ quoted text not captured ]

[snip] > > You can play SM when the action is announced. > > The illegal part above seems to be the play of Foreshadowing of > Destruction as the action is announced. FoD cannot be played as > the action is announced. So can you bleed, play SM and then FoD? Or do you have to wait for another player to do something before playing FoD? Chris.

LSJ expounded: > Timlagor wrote: > > How should I distinguish between a card I can play whenever I like in > > the process of taking an action and one that I can't if it doesn't say? > > In other words: what is your definition of "appropriate"? > > Card text. > > Cards are played one at a time. > Action Modifiers cannot be played before the action is announced, so must > be played after. Does this mean that you can't redraw between playing the action and playing the SM? This doesn't appear to have anything to do with "appropriate". SM and others 'create a phase in which cards can be played' (just like before range) and there is no reason in the rules to say that you can't play other cards in that window. "As apporpriate" can certainly be interpreted as saying you can't modify an action you haven't announced yet -I'll agree to that much ;-) I recommend a rewording: "Note that action modifiers and reaction cards can be played at any time [<snip> in this process as appropriate] *AFTER THE ACTION IS ANNOUNCED* , subject to the restrictions on adding stealth and intercept ..." (except where overruled by card text of course) > Some have special text requiring them to be played as the action is > announced, so can be. > > See also Sudden and playing cards "as" other cards are played (not normally > allowed). (can't find it) SM (etc.) are not played "AS" other cards are played; they are played "WHEN" an action is announced -ie at the time of the announcement but not necessarily the precise moment -contiguous in time but not necessarily simultaneous. The normal sequence in VTES is "acting Meth plays all they want, reacting Meth plays one, Acting Meth,... Reacting Meth declines to play" then you move on. I haven't seen anything to indicate that "play when the action is announced" is any different. Sorry to bang on but I just can't see any consistancy here.

Timlagor expounded: > LSJ expounded: > > Some have special text requiring them to be played as the action is > > announced, so can be. > > > > See also Sudden and playing cards "as" other cards are played (not normally > > allowed). > (can't find it) OK found something after all (don't know if it's waht you are referring to): LSJ says "Direct Intervention. Is also played immediately after the card you want to cancel, or not at all. This screws up some timing involving modifiers that must be played "as the action is announced", so I'd suggest allowing the acting player to "undo" such action modifiers (pick it back up, return the card drawn to replace it back on the library, etc.). The clean solution to this is to announce each action (and play the card) and then ask "any direct intervention?" before going on to play the required action modifiers. But that's a bit cumbersome." Seems to say that "WHEN the action is announced" (Seduction/SM/etc) occurs AFTER "AS the action is announced" (Direct Intervention) and furthermore that you can play multiple cards (are redraw for them) in this period (when the action) -e.g. SM then Seduction. <semantic pedantry> Furthermore the cards say "ONLY PLAYABLE WHEN..." which is a restriction and does not actually empower them to be played at that time -but does imply that they are *already* playable at that time.

"Chris Arthur" <chr...@comcen.com.au> wrote in message <snip> > > So can you bleed, play SM and then FoD? Or do you have to wait for > another player to do something before playing FoD? > > Chris. The Former. As you can play FoD at any time in the action beween SM and any kind of deflection or anything, this whole arguement seems a bit stupid to me... Cheers JK -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Timlagor wrote: > LSJ expounded: > >>Timlagor wrote: >> >>>How should I distinguish between a card I can play whenever I like in >>>the process of taking an action and one that I can't if it doesn't say? >>>In other words: what is your definition of "appropriate"? >> >>Card text. >> >>Cards are played one at a time. >>Action Modifiers cannot be played before the action is announced, so must >>be played after. > > > Does this mean that you can't redraw between playing the action and > playing the SM? No. >>See also Sudden and playing cards "as" other cards are played (not normally >>allowed). > > (can't find it) > SM (etc.) are not played "AS" other cards are played; they are played > "WHEN" an action is announced -ie at the time of the announcement but > not necessarily the precise moment -contiguous in time but not > necessarily simultaneous. True. That doesn't invalidate the parallel drawn, however. > The normal sequence in VTES is "acting Meth plays all they want, > reacting Meth plays one, Acting Meth,... Reacting Meth declines to play" > then you move on. I haven't seen anything to indicate that "play when > the action is announced" is any different. > > Sorry to bang on but I just can't see any consistancy here. Parallel spelled out: Sudden can only be played when the master card is played, so can be played when the master card is played. Other cards, lacking the "only as played" stipulation cannot be. SM can only be played when the action is announced, so can be played when the action is announced. Other cards, lacking the "only as announced" stipulation cannot be. [ quoted text not captured ]

Timlagor wrote: > LSJ says > "Direct Intervention. Is also played immediately after the card you want > to cancel, or not at all. > > This screws up some timing involving modifiers that must be played "as > the action is announced", so I'd suggest allowing the acting player to > "undo" such action modifiers (pick it back up, return the card drawn to > replace it back on the library, etc.). The clean solution to this is to > announce each action (and play the card) and then ask "any direct > intervention?" before going on to play the required action modifiers. > But that's a bit cumbersome." > Seems to say that "WHEN the action is announced" (Seduction/SM/etc) > occurs AFTER "AS the action is announced" (Direct Intervention) and > furthermore that you can play multiple cards (are redraw for them) in > this period (when the action) -e.g. SM then Seduction. Note: DI is not "AS the action is announced". It is "as the card is played". "As the card is played" is, effectively, before the action is announced. The two events are effectively one and the same except for cases like Direct Intervention. Just as the play of a master card and the resolution of a master card are one and the same except for cases like Sudden. [LSJ 06-JUN-2002] http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CFF7650.1528FB1E%40white-wolf.com [LSJ 16-DEC-2002] http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DFE2B29.40850F61%40white-wolf.com [LSJ 15-APR-2003] http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3E9BF33E.2070105%40white-wolf.com You can play multiple "as announced" effects as you are announcing the action, yes. [LSJ 05-MAR-2002] http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3C84C731.C7FA8E50%40white-wolf.com > <semantic pedantry> > Furthermore the cards say "ONLY PLAYABLE WHEN..." which is a restriction > and does not actually empower them to be played at that time -but does > imply that they are *already* playable at that time. Welcome to English as a CG language. See Hidden Lurker and Mask of a Thousand Faces "Only usable by a ready untapped vampire other than the acting minion." By your assertion, that restriction implies that modifiers are already playable by such minions. See Save Face, Martyr's Resilience, etc. By your assertion, the restrictions imply that combat cards are already playable by minions not involved in the combat. [ quoted text not captured ]