LSJ: Protected resources/Spying mission

Hi there, There have been so many questions/posts about similar situations, but we just couldn't find any that includes an answer to this one (and as it came up during a tournament last WE): You have Protected resources in play. You attempt to bleed. It works (succesfull bleed) You play Spying Mission (rendering your bleed unsuccesfull,not gaining the edge etc). Does Protected Resources constantly check for succesfull bleeding, or not? In other words, does it burn during the small time window in which your succesfull bleeding allows you to play Spying Mission, or does it only check at the resolution, ie bleed for 0= unsuccesfull, hence staying in play? We had so many decent reasons pro and contra both options, so I really couldn't say which one seems most logical anymore.. Thanks in advance Greetz Jo

wolflord wrote: > Hi there, > There have been so many questions/posts about similar situations, but > we just couldn't find any that includes an answer to this one (and as > it came up during a tournament last WE): > > You have Protected resources in play. > You attempt to bleed. > It works (succesfull bleed) > You play Spying Mission (rendering your bleed unsuccesfull,not gaining > the edge etc). > > > Does Protected Resources constantly check for succesfull bleeding, or > not? > In other words, does it burn during the small time window in which > your succesfull bleeding allows you to play Spying Mission, or does it > only check at the resolution, ie bleed for 0= unsuccesfull, hence > staying in play? The bleed was not successful => your minion did not successfully bleed => the Protected Resources doesn't burn itself. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 07:48:52 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >wolflord wrote: >> Hi there, >> There have been so many questions/posts about similar situations, but >> we just couldn't find any that includes an answer to this one (and as >> it came up during a tournament last WE): >> >> You have Protected resources in play. >> You attempt to bleed. >> It works (succesfull bleed) >> You play Spying Mission (rendering your bleed unsuccesfull,not gaining >> the edge etc). >> >> Does Protected Resources constantly check for succesfull bleeding, or >> not? > >> In other words, does it burn during the small time window in which >> your succesfull bleeding allows you to play Spying Mission, or does it >> only check at the resolution, ie bleed for 0= unsuccesfull, hence >> staying in play? > >The bleed was not successful => your minion did not successfully bleed => >the Protected Resources doesn't burn itself. but....the bleed was successful, otherwise you could not have played Spying Mission: Spying Mission [Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:PM5/PN3] Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Obfuscate [obf] This acting vampire gets +1 stealth. [OBF] ****Only usable when a bleed is successful.**** Instead of removing pool from the Methuselah you're bleeding, put this card on the acting vampire. The next time this vampire successfully bleeds the same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed. emphasis added by me. then, when you play SM, it sort of 'undoes' the success of the bleed...? salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

In message <83b0gvgb4taj56s9b...@4ax.com>, salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> writes: >then, when you play SM, it sort of 'undoes' the success of the >bleed...? The current interpretation of SM is closer to: "Play when a bleed would otherwise be successful." So far as I can tell, anyway. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

Rule book: To bleed a Methuselah, announce the action and tap the acting minion (the minion who is taking the bleed action). If the action is successful, the target Methuselah burns an amount of pool equal to the bleed amount. By default, all minions have a bleed amount of one (most allies have card text that overrides the default). Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it. Spying Mission [Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:PM5/PN3] Cardtype: Action Modifier Discipline: Obfuscate [obf] This acting vampire gets +1 stealth. [OBF] ****Only usable when a bleed is successful.**** Instead of removing pool from the Methuselah you're bleeding, put this card on the acting vampire. The next time this vampire successfully bleeds the same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed. It seems the spying mission is played at the end of the action. Doing a replacement affect for the pool loss. So in my interpetation the bleed is still succesfull (you even get the edge) but the is no pool lost. So I think you lose the protected recourses. Have fun playing Oortje

Oortje4ever wrote: > Rule book: > if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the > bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the > Edge > It seems the spying mission is played at the end of the action. Doing > a replacement affect for the pool loss. > So in my interpetation the bleed is still succesfull (you even get the > edge) but the is no pool lost. So I think you lose the protected > recourses. The bleed amount is not one or more. The bleed is not successful. You do not get the Edge. You don't lose the Protected Resources. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F018685...@white-wolf.com>... > Oortje4ever wrote: > > Rule book: > > if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the > > bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the > > Edge > > > It seems the spying mission is played at the end of the action. Doing > > a replacement affect for the pool loss. > > So in my interpetation the bleed is still succesfull (you even get the > > edge) but the is no pool lost. So I think you lose the protected > > recourses. > > The bleed amount is not one or more. The bleed is not successful. You do > not get the Edge. You don't lose the Protected Resources. so you play it when nobody attempts to block or when attempts to block fail? Do I have to give my opponent an opertunaty to redirect or reduce the bleed? Oortje

Oortje4ever wrote: > so you play it when nobody attempts to block or when attempts to block fail? Yes. You play it when the bleed would be successful. > Do I have to give my opponent an opertunaty to redirect or reduce the bleed? Yes. You play it when the bleed would be successful. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <fd5a4c98.03070...@posting.google.com>, Oortje4ever <oortj...@hotmail.com> writes: >so you play it when nobody attempts to block or when attempts to block fail? When attempts to block fail. (Assuming any were there. e.g. Horrific Countenance.) >Do I have to give my opponent an opertunaty to redirect or reduce the bleed? Yes. It's played when it would be successful, except you stop it being successful. [ quoted text not captured ]

Bleed bounces do require a succesfull bleed right? So I can't use Deflect a bleed of 0? Correct?

On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 02:19:31 +0200, "Ulugh Beg" <dontfe...@spam.me> scrawled: >Bleed bounces do require a succesfull bleed right? > >So I can't use Deflect a bleed of 0? > >Correct? you don't know if it's successful or not until it's resolving/resolved. You can deflect a bleed of 0, or less, if you want. You can deflect before or after block attempts. HOWEVER, once it _is_ a successful bleed (resolving/resolved), it's too late to deflect. [ quoted text not captured ]

> you don't know if it's successful or not until it's > resolving/resolved. > > You can deflect a bleed of 0, or less, if you want. > You can deflect before or after block attempts. > > HOWEVER, once it _is_ a successful bleed (resolving/resolved), it's > too late to deflect. Pffft. The timing keeps on confusing me. "I bleed for one" "k sure, fine with me, I don't block" "Oh, then I'll play Conditioning, not it's a bleed for 4" "Crap, I'll deflect" That's legal right? Now this: "I bleed for one" "k sure, fine with me, I don't block" "Good, well, I play Spying Mission" "Hmm, I deflect in that case" I suppose I can't do that? I don't lose the Protected resources after playing Spying Mission and I don't get the edge, because the bleed is not succesful. But I can only play Spying Mission on a successful bleed... euh?

Ulugh Beg wrote: >>you don't know if it's successful or not until it's >>resolving/resolved. >> >>You can deflect a bleed of 0, or less, if you want. >>You can deflect before or after block attempts. >> >>HOWEVER, once it _is_ a successful bleed (resolving/resolved), it's >>too late to deflect. > > > Pffft. The timing keeps on confusing me. > > "I bleed for one" > "k sure, fine with me, I don't block" > "Oh, then I'll play Conditioning, not it's a bleed for 4" > "Crap, I'll deflect" > > That's legal right? Yes. > Now this: > > "I bleed for one" > "k sure, fine with me, I don't block" "OK. I don't boost". "OK. I don't bounce or reduce." > "Good, well, I play Spying Mission" > "Hmm, I deflect in that case" > > I suppose I can't do that? Correct. > I don't lose the Protected resources after > playing Spying Mission and I don't get the edge, because the bleed is > not succesful. But I can only play Spying Mission on a successful > bleed... euh? ... on a bleed that would've been successful. SM keeps it from being successful. [ quoted text not captured ]

> "OK. I don't boost". > "OK. I don't bounce or reduce." So, if I declare I won't bounce or reduce, you can't increase a bleed anymore? How about Walk of Caine, which specifies you can use it at ANY time during the bleed. Is that meant as a way around this, or more another way of saying that it an action at san and an action modifier at SAN?

Ulugh Beg wrote: >>"OK. I don't boost". >>"OK. I don't bounce or reduce." > > So, if I declare I won't bounce or reduce, you can't increase a bleed > anymore? You only get the chance to declare "no more effects" after the acting play has done so. See 1.6.1.6. > How about Walk of Caine, which specifies you can use it at ANY time > during the bleed. The same. You can't get into a "No, you go first" infinite loop. > Is that meant as a way around this, or more another way of saying that > it an action at san and an action modifier at SAN? It is no way around this, no. [ quoted text not captured ]

> You only get the chance to declare "no more effects" after the acting > play has done so. See 1.6.1.6. "I bleed for one." "I'm not gonna block" "k. I'll play Command of the Beast at superior. it's now a bleed for 2" "Hmm, shit, I'm gonna have to take that. No more modifiers?" "Nope" "k, I can't redirect either, so I lose two pool" "Wait wait, I also want to play Conditoning, so it's 5 pool" Is illegal because of the fifth line (declining any more mods). Is it also true that you can never increase a bleed without the target having the chance to deflect it after the last modifier?

[ quoted text not captured ] I find the easiest way to explain Spying Mission is that it has it's own separate timing window that happens after all normal action modifiers and reactions for the action. All the bleed pumps, reductions, redirections have to be done before Spying Mission is played or [existing ones are] burnt. That it's used in a separate timing window causes the complication/confusion. As for effects in the same timing window as Spying Mission, as I recall Major Boon which only changes who takes the loss and, off the top of my head, nothing else comes to mind though I'm sure LSJ will note anything else.

Ulugh Beg wrote: >>You only get the chance to declare "no more effects" after the acting >>play has done so. See 1.6.1.6. > > > > "I bleed for one." > "I'm not gonna block" > "k. I'll play Command of the Beast at superior. it's now a bleed for 2" > "Hmm, shit, I'm gonna have to take that. No more modifiers?" > "Nope" > "k, I can't redirect either, so I lose two pool" > "Wait wait, I also want to play Conditoning, so it's 5 pool" > > Is illegal because of the fifth line (declining any more mods). Correct. No more mods is no more mods. > Is it also true that you can never increase a bleed without the target > having the chance to deflect it after the last modifier? Yes, per 1.6.1.6. [ quoted text not captured ]