rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

[BH Spoiler & LSJ Question] Remover - The wait is over

22 messages from 12 participants · 17 November 2003 – 19 November 2003
original thread on Google Groups

shang

Remover Master. Put this card on a Black Hand vampire. This vampire can tap any card (including a minion) as a +1 stealth (D) action. A vampire can only have one Remover. Has anyone else been waiting as long as I have for the ability to tap a non-minion card controlled by another Methuselah? Intercept locations, freakin' Lasombra Power Structure, hunting grounds, Dreams of the Sphinx, etc. I'm excited! Maybe I'll start playing VTES again instead of PBEM Scrabble. Although PBEM Scrabble is cool. CHix dig it. Questions: What happens when you target a "card controlled by another Methuselah" [ccbaM] that provides "special tap effects" such as Heidelberg, Dreams of the Sphinx, Ventrue HQ, etc.? What happens when you target a ccbaM that can normally only be tapped during a specific phase or action, such as Ventrue HQ, Arcane Library? If the criteria listed on the card cannot be met, is the card text ignored? If you target a ccbaM that they can tap at any time (such as The Barrens) and that Methuselah taps it before resolving the action, does the action fizzle? Does the action fashizzle? Does the action fashizzle my nizzle? (ie no Freak Drive at inferior) Examples: -If you target another Methuselah's Dreams of the Sphinx with the Remover action, are they forced to increase their hand size, as it would be the only legal choice during your minion phase? -If you target another Methuselah's The Barrens, are they forced to discard a card of their choice? -If you target another Methuselah's War Ghoul and succeed, can you also burn the War Ghoul and force someone to burn a location? Mike Ooi The Artist Formely Known as Prince of Austin but now lives in Chicago

Timlagor

shang expounded: > Remover > Master. > Put this card on a Black Hand vampire. This vampire can tap any card > (including a minion) as a +1 stealth (D) action. A vampire can only > have one Remover. > > Has anyone else been waiting as long as I have for the ability to tap a > non-minion card controlled by another Methuselah? Intercept locations, Well it's potentially very nice. > What happens when you target a "card controlled by another Methuselah" > [ccbaM] that provides "special tap effects" such as Heidelberg, Dreams of > the Sphinx, Ventrue HQ, etc.? no effect. Just like when you tap someone else's vampires they don't get to use that to take an action.

salem

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:58:53 -0000, Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] dreams won't even gain a counter, as it only gains counter when you tap it (the controlling meth). if they tap the card in between you announcing your action and it's resolution, it will still succeed as Remover does not require you to be tapping an untapped card, merely a card. so tapping a tapped card is allowed. so, Freak drive ahoy. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

LSJ

Timlagor wrote: > shang expounded: >>Remover >>Put this card on a Black Hand vampire. This vampire can tap any card >>(including a minion) as a +1 stealth (D) action. A vampire can only >>have one Remover. >>What happens when you target a "card controlled by another Methuselah" >>[ccbaM] that provides "special tap effects" such as Heidelberg, Dreams of >>the Sphinx, Ventrue HQ, etc.? > > no effect. Just like when you tap someone else's vampires they don't get > to use that to take an action. Correct. The vampire takes the action to tap the card. If successful, the card is tapped. That is all. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Frederick Scott

shang wrote: > > Remover > Master. > Put this card on a Black Hand vampire. This vampire can tap any card > (including a minion) as a +1 stealth (D) action. A vampire can only > have one Remover. > > Has anyone else been waiting as long as I have for the ability to tap a > non-minion card controlled by another Methuselah? Intercept locations, > freakin' Lasombra Power Structure, hunting grounds, Dreams of the Sphinx, > etc. Er, what good would tapping a hunting ground do? Fred

Gomi no Sensei

In article <3FB98D97...@removethis.com>, Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote: >Er, what good would tapping a hunting ground do? In the long ago and far away, tapping an artifact in Magic: the Gathering made it shut off. It's possible someone is laboring under a misapprehension that this principle applies here. gomi -- Tenser, said the Tensor; Tenser, said the Tensor; Tension, apprehension, and dissension have begun.

Frederick Scott

Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > In article <3FB98D97...@removethis.com>, > Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote: > > >Er, what good would tapping a hunting ground do? > > In the long ago and far away, tapping an artifact in Magic: the Gathering > made it shut off. It's possible someone is laboring under a misapprehension > that this principle applies here. Yea, I thought of that, too. It's just that a Hunting Ground is used during the untap phase. Fred

shang

"Frederick Scott" <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:3FB98D97...@removethis.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I'm missing your point. It's obvious, isn't it? -Mike

Oortje4ever

go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote in message news:<bpc43k$mgn$1...@panix1.panix.com>... > In article <3FB98D97...@removethis.com>, > Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote: > > >Er, what good would tapping a hunting ground do? > > In the long ago and far away, tapping an artifact in Magic: the Gathering > made it shut off. It's possible someone is laboring under a misapprehension > that this principle applies here. > > gomi Like Gomi said: nothing! if it did you could still untap it during your untap phase. Remover is usefull to tap cards which need to be tapped. You could tap: a blooddoll an ivory bow a torpordized vampire the 8th card of the top of a library a muldded vampire hunter with true faith I think and know almost absolutely for sure that remover mean cards in play. but for now keep tapping cards in players library. :) have fun playing Oortje

Frederick Scott

[ quoted text not captured ] > I'm missing your point. It's obvious, isn't it? Er, so you could read it sideways? I give up. You tell me. Fred

hawk_the_demon

> Correct. The vampire takes the action to tap the card. If successful, the > card is tapped. That is all. is it possible for the target methuselah to tap the card for its effect in response to the action, if it doesn't have specific card text like Heidelberg castle?

Colin McGuigan

hawk_the_demon wrote: > is it possible for the target methuselah to tap the card for its > effect in response to the action, if it doesn't have specific card > text like Heidelberg castle? Yes. You could tap the Barrens to discard a card before the Barrens got tapped (with no effect) by the remover. You could tap Dreams of the Sphinx to increase your hand size by two (the other two options not being usable during a minion phase). You could not, however, tap the Parthenon (only usable during your master phase) or Heidelberg (not usable during an action). --Colin McGuigan

Colin McGuigan

shang wrote: > I'm missing your point. It's obvious, isn't it? 1) A hunting ground is used during the untap phase, so even if tapping it did anything, it would still be untapped before it could be used anyways. 2) A hunting ground says "During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control." No mention of tapping. Ergo, a hunting ground doesn't need to be tapped to be used, and it could still be used even if it were tapped (compare to: Alexandra can tap or untap another Toreador even when she herself is tapped.) --Colin McGuigan

Jozxyqk

Colin McGuigan <maguaSP...@speakeasy.net> wrote: > You could tap Dreams of the Sphinx to increase your hand size by two > (the other two options not being usable during a minion phase). [nitpick] Dreams of the Sphinx [AH:R2, FN:PG] Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Unique master. Put a counter on this card each time you tap it; when the third counter is added, burn this card. Tap this card to draw two cards and increase your hand size by two cards until the end of the current turn. Tap during your untap phase to gain an additional pool if you have the Edge. *Tap to move a blood from the blood bank to a vampire in your uncontrolled region.* There is nothing about the last sentence that restricts you from using this ability during any phase, during any turn. You can tap the Dreams to add a counter to an uncontrolled vampire in the middle of an action... Or on someone else's turn.. [/nitpick]

Colin McGuigan

Jozxyqk wrote: > There is nothing about the last sentence that restricts you from using this > ability during any phase, during any turn. You can tap the Dreams to add > a counter to an uncontrolled vampire in the middle of an action... Or on > someone else's turn.. How 'bout that. Live and learn. --Colin McGuigan

shang

"Colin McGuigan" <maguaSP...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message news:E-KdnYPEOM0...@speakeasy.net... [ quoted text not captured ] So what exactly are you saying? What do you mean? 8^} -Mike

shang

"Frederick Scott" <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:3FB9CB11...@removethis.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Exactly. 8^} -Mike

John Flournoy

de...@hell.is (hawk_the_demon) wrote in message news:<63352126.03111...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Hard to tell what you're asking here. If you can 'tap the card for its effect', it must have specific card text like Heidelburg... If the card must be tapped to have an effect (Heidelburg, Dreams, etc), then card text exists that specifies when you can tap the card. Depending on the effect, you should be able to tap it in response to the action being declared (For instance, Heidelburg specifically cannot be tapped during an action. Similarly, you could not tap the Labyrinth to give your Nos +1 Stealth, because you can't give your vamp stealth on somebody else's action. You could tap KRCG in response to give someone +1 intercept, because that *is* an appropriate use in response to an action being declared by someone else.) If the card does not need to be tapped for its effect (like a Spying Mission in play, or Powerbase: Montreal) then the Remover's tapping of it will not make any difference to the use of that card - they're just fine tapped. If there's no card text (or a game effect like 'I successfully block this action') permitting/forcing you to tap a card, no, you cannot just say 'I tap this card just because I want to'. You cannot for instance respond to Remover (or Spirit Marionette, or Mind Numb, etc) by saying "I tap the target vampire in response", because there's no card or game effect allowing you to specifically tap it. -John Flournoy

Mats Ellingsen

do you untap library cards not drawn? or uncontrolled vamps? does taped uncontrolled vamps come out taped? is there leagal to tap cards on other tabels? how does it work when all your cards in your hand is taped? should ww make a card; when all cards in you library is taped you lose? so that it would be any point in taping a card not drawn yet?should it say tap a card in play? anyways this card looks cool :)

Colin McGuigan

shang wrote: > So what exactly are you saying? What do you mean? 8^} I'm saying "I like pudding". --Colin McGuigan

salem

On 18 Nov 2003 13:44:56 -0800, erro...@hotmail.com (Mats Ellingsen) scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] You can only target cards in play (controlled) unless specific card text overrides. This goes for anything, not just Remover. For example, Memory's Fading Glimpse has override text to allow it to target uncontrolled vampires. [ quoted text not captured ]

John Flournoy

> Remover is usefull to tap cards which need to be tapped. > You could tap: > a blooddoll > an ivory bow Both pointless. > a torpordized vampire Sure. > the 8th card of the top of a library Nope! (See below) > a muldded vampire hunter with true faith Good plan. > I think and know almost absolutely for sure that remover mean cards in > play. but for now keep tapping cards in players library. :) It's not that Remover means 'cards in play', it's this part of the rulebook: "If a card is played on another card, or selects or chooses or otherwise targets another card, the target card must be in play (i.e., controlled). Vampires in the torpor region are eligible targets by default, but vampires in the uncontrolled region and contested cards are not." Since Remover lacks any text providing exceptions to this rule (like for instance how Govern The Unaligned specifically targets an uncontrolled vampire), Remover can't tap a card in someone's library. (Or ash heap, or crypt, or contested, or a card in your uncontrolled region. > have fun playing > Oortje -John Flournoy