This is a rebuild of a deck I played and won with last night
(disclaimer: my first predator, a CEL/pot rush deck, got hand-jammed
right out the gate, and my prey, AUS/THAU intercept combat, rarely had
more than 2 intercept and not enough ways around S:CE from Majesty and
Toreador's Bane. In a more competitive environment, I probably would
have been obliterated).
Anyway, in the course of the game it occured to me that it's not that
hard to get the Daughters enough stealth for most situations, and
they're really, really good at voting (I had no problem getting up to
10 votes, with Charming Lobby(2), Bewitching Oration(3), Madrigal(2)
and Echo of Harmonies(2)). The main thing they're vulnerable to is
bleeds and rush. The solution seemed to be Domain Challenge (weenies
usually tap everything) and Banishment (get rid of big vamps).
Deck Name: Heathers
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 12, Max: 23, Avg: 4.42)
----------------------------------------------
2 Muse ani for mel 3, Daughters of Cacophony
2 Celeste mel pre 3, Daughters of Cacophony
2 Delilah Monroe for MEL pre 4, Daughters of Cacophony
3 Angela Preston for MEL PRE 5, Daughters of Cacophony
3 Gael Pilet chi FOR MEL pre 6, Daughters of Cacophony
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (23 cards)
1 Barrens, The
1 Bastille Opera House
2 Creepshow Casino
2 Dreams of the Sphinx
1 Elder Library
2 Information Highway
2 Paris Opera House
2 Parthenon, The
5 Presence
1 Slave Auction
2 Tribute to the Master
2 Visit from the Capuchin
Action (14 cards)
2 Charming Lobby
12 Choir
Action Modifier (27 cards)
4 Bewitching Oration
3 Bribes
2 Business Pressure
4 Echo of Harmonies
2 Freak Drive
6 Missing Voice, The
2 Siren's Lure
4 Voter Captivation
Political Action (12 cards)
5 Banishment
2 Consanguineous Boon
3 Domain Challenge
2 Rumors of Gehenna
Combat (6 cards)
3 Majesty
3 Toreador's Bane
Combo (8 cards)
8 Madrigal
The strategy is to get Daughters out fast (with help from Dreams and
Info Highway), and tool them up with Presence to help the votes and
make Toreador's Bane more effective. The Parthenon and Rumors of
Gehenna will be crucial to making that work. Barrens, Capuchin and
Elder Library all help get the right combos into your hand.
Whenever possible, the Daughters vote. This requires a lot of watching
the table to see when you're least likely to be blocked or outvoted.
If serious intercept is out, you might have to wait for the Paris
Opera House or the Creepshow Casino to come out. When I played it, the
Missing Voice plus the inherent +1 stealth on votes was usually
enough. It's also important to not forget that any vote played can be
played a second time with Echo, which is especially good when the
first vote was Charming Lobbied (making Domain Challenge, in
particular, very nasty).
The Choirs mostly work to mess with the minds of potential blockers.
If they see the first inferior Choir come out, then blockers tend to
not block your second action if it's a vote, because they want to save
their intercept for the huge superior Choir at the end. Which may
never happen. It's usually worth wasting one Choir to get an important
vote through. If the Banishments do their job and leave your prey
open, that's about the only time the superior Choirs get used (though
at that point it might be better just to bleed with all the
Daughters).
Comments? The deck when played had less masters, more Choirs and
different votes (KRC and Autarkis Persecution, only 2 Banishments),
and required serious table playing to work right. Lots of bargaining
to get votes through and mind games to trick people into blocking the
wrong thing or assuming you had a S:CE in hand. Like I said earlier,
I'm not sure it would survive a more hard-core table, but it seems
like it has potential.
JSpektr
In message <196f2577.02060...@posting.google.com>,
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>bleeds and rush. The solution seemed to be Domain Challenge (weenies
>usually tap everything) and Banishment (get rid of big vamps).
Banishment's card text:
"Political Card-Worth 1 Vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth.
Choose a younger ready vampire..."
>Comments?
The deck will only be able to Banish weenies. It may require some
reconstructing.
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
> 12 Choir
I think you need these a LOT more or ditch all of them.
With 90 cards deck you have to get very lucky card flow to get 5 choirs in
your hand. And 5 is max because you only have 5 different minions. That's
maximun of 8 damage which can be easily prevented by blocking the last
action. 5 x KRC would be 15 damage....
> 5 Banishment
As Derek said it only works against younger vampires. Drop all.
> Combat (6 cards)
> 3 Majesty
> 3 Toreador's Bane
Have fun with the rush decks ;)
- Guzmo
Some thoughts:
1. I believe you have too many Master cards, even for a 90-card deck.
With the speed at which you plan to cycle cards (considering 26 action
cards [including referendums] and 35 action modifiers [including
Madrigal]) you're almost assured of drawing more than two per turn.
This deck is reliant on drawing The Parthenon or Rumours of Gehenna
early - a bad thing, since if you DON'T draw one quickly, you won't be
able to easily cycle to one either (even with Visit or Dreams). With
that in mind, Slave Auction is a poor choice for the deck - you likely
won't have spare master phase actions to use it.
2. While I'm all for the idea of a "pure" DoC crypt, in practice,
permanent votes are always better than vote-gaining action modifiers.
No matter how many you have, you'll always face situations where all
you're drawing are political action cards, or just not enough
different types to get the vote through (say, you need both a
Bewitching Oration and a Madrigal but only have one). Negotiating with
other Methuselahs can offset this a bit, but it's hard to negotiate
with a Domain Challenge. Also, like Derek Ray has mentioned, you have
that "younger vampire" clause with the Banishment thing, so those
should probably be KRCs.
Anyway, for permanent votes, consider adding Toreador or Ventrue to
the crypt. Toreador because the Melpominee cards split with the Torrie
clan disciplines, Ventrue because they share two disciplines with the
DoC and let you include Ventrue Headquarters. The younger princes
(Tatiana Romanova, Timothy Crowley) would do nicely. Anson's ability
would be excellent with all the Master cards you want to use. Rake
would work with the deck, too. Another way to go about this is,
instead of using the higher capacity princes, put in younger vampires
(Gideon, Violette) and some Praxis Seizures, which Angela Preston can
use. Incidentally, this is why I suggested the Camarilla clans instead
of the antitribu - better to let Angela (with MEL and PRE) use a
Praxis Seizure, than to have Muse (with just mel) try to pass a
Crusade.
3. Vulnerability to bleeds is the main problem with DoC. Since this is
a vote deck, you can include some Protected Resources, then never
bleed so it stays in play indefinitely. Or, if you do add Toreador or
Ventrue, you can add a bit of bounce. Rush shouldn't be a problem, not
when Daughters have Fortitude. Use a few copies of Skin of Steel and
Superior Mettle to go with the Majesty and Toreador's Bane - if they
Immortal Grapple, prevent damage; if they don't, end combat. It works
for the Ventrue, it should work for the DoC.
4. Your choices of vote-gaining modifiers could use some improvements.
My thoughts:
a) if your deck includes Bewitching Oration, Madrigal and Charming
Lobby, you don't need Bribes
b) ditto with Business Pressure - if you're willing to spend
blood/pool to gain votes, use Awe
c) good idea to use Awe anyway, because Awe + Voter Captivation =
great combo (with PRE)
5. I would just get rid of Choir completely. The bluff factor doesn't
give enough of a benefit to justify including them, and 12 copies
isn't enough to make it a viable secondary offensive strategy. Better
to focus on the politics.
Alright, first off, I just read the text on my actual Banishment cards
instead of checking for updates and errata. Nothing on it about
younger vampires. *sigh* Does anyone else get annoyed that you can't
actually build a VTES deck unless you're sitting in front of a
computer with a net connection or a copy of Elder Library?
I quit playing Mage Knight and Magic because the rules constantly
changed, and it became too much effort to recheck everything I had
before I played each game. VTES is slowly approaching similar
territory.
javel...@yahoo.co.jp (Javelin) wrote in message news:<983fc7e7.02060...@posting.google.com>...
> Some thoughts:
>
> 1. I believe you have too many Master cards, even for a 90-card deck.
> With the speed at which you plan to cycle cards (considering 26 action
> cards [including referendums] and 35 action modifiers [including
> Madrigal]) you're almost assured of drawing more than two per turn.
> This deck is reliant on drawing The Parthenon or Rumours of Gehenna
> early - a bad thing, since if you DON'T draw one quickly, you won't be
> able to easily cycle to one either (even with Visit or Dreams). With
> that in mind, Slave Auction is a poor choice for the deck - you likely
> won't have spare master phase actions to use it.
Possibly. I definately see the point on the Slave Auction. My
experience has been that the deck really only fired off one or two
votes each turn, and didn't cycle that fast. Part of that is because 2
points of stealth come from permanents (Freakshow and Opera House),
meaning only one action can reliably make it past intercept.
I'll just have to see how it works in an actual game. The original
version only had 12 master cards, and saw them very rarely.
> 2. While I'm all for the idea of a "pure" DoC crypt, in practice,
> permanent votes are always better than vote-gaining action modifiers.
> No matter how many you have, you'll always face situations where all
> you're drawing are political action cards, or just not enough
> different types to get the vote through (say, you need both a
> Bewitching Oration and a Madrigal but only have one). Negotiating with
> other Methuselahs can offset this a bit, but it's hard to negotiate
> with a Domain Challenge. Also, like Derek Ray has mentioned, you have
> that "younger vampire" clause with the Banishment thing, so those
> should probably be KRCs.
Yeah, the "younger vampire" change to Banishment completely changes
how the deck works. I'm kind of irritated about that. The original
plan was to get rid of titled vampires using Banishment. With the
errata, I'm not sure it can get around titles any more. Maybe a couple
Command of the Harpies (good for stopping Princely Intercept decks
too, I suppose).
> Anyway, for permanent votes, consider adding Toreador or Ventrue to
> the crypt. Toreador because the Melpominee cards split with the Torrie
> clan disciplines, Ventrue because they share two disciplines with the
> DoC and let you include Ventrue Headquarters. The younger princes
If I put in non-Daughters, it would be presence weenies. It's
important in this deck to conserve pool by using small vampires,
especially with its poor bleed defense and only moderate blote. Also,
the blote is through Consaguinious Boon, less useful with a
non-monoclan crypt. The Bastille Opera House also loses effectiveness
if some of the crypt is non-Daughter.
>
> 3. Vulnerability to bleeds is the main problem with DoC. Since this is
> a vote deck, you can include some Protected Resources, then never
> bleed so it stays in play indefinitely. Or, if you do add Toreador or
> Ventrue, you can add a bit of bounce. Rush shouldn't be a problem, not
> when Daughters have Fortitude. Use a few copies of Skin of Steel and
> Superior Mettle to go with the Majesty and Toreador's Bane - if they
> Immortal Grapple, prevent damage; if they don't, end combat. It works
> for the Ventrue, it should work for the DoC.
Worth considering. I only have one Protected Resources. I might also
throw my only Archon Investigation in. An older version of the deck
(the one posted is version 3) had Aabt Kindred, fortitude cards,
Tourette's Voice for intercept and Atonement. It worked okay, but it
got torn apart by a couple of decks with ways around Fortitude
(Tremere stealing blood and a rush deck with lots of extra strikes and
presses).
> 4. Your choices of vote-gaining modifiers could use some improvements.
> My thoughts:
> a) if your deck includes Bewitching Oration, Madrigal and Charming
> Lobby, you don't need Bribes
Need the bribes for pool gain and to swing cross-table votes. They
turned out to be crucial to several votes when I played version 2.
> b) ditto with Business Pressure - if you're willing to spend
> blood/pool to gain votes, use Awe
Business Pressure isn't there to get votes. It's there to get targets
to spend pool on votes I either don't need to pass, or votes I know I
can outspend them on.
> c) good idea to use Awe anyway, because Awe + Voter Captivation =
> great combo (with PRE)
I also only have one copy of Awe, which makes this problematic. And
they go for way too much on eBay to consider trying to get more (none
of the players around here have any for trade, either, we all used to
play before Sabbat/VTES, then picked it up again with Final Nights).
> 5. I would just get rid of Choir completely. The bluff factor doesn't
> give enough of a benefit to justify including them, and 12 copies
> isn't enough to make it a viable secondary offensive strategy. Better
> to focus on the politics.
I disagree. It worked pretty well when I played it. Granted, version 2
had 16 Choirs instead of 12, and had less master cards, so I had
decent chances of getting off a Choir for 4 or 6 if they blocked the
wrong thing. And after the first Choir, the bluff usually worked.
Like I said in the original post, the deck required a lot of playing
the table to make it work. The Banishment change really shoots a hole
in it, I'm not sure what I'm going to do about that. I'll probably
switch a few things around and just try it, and see what happens.
Thanks for the analysis,
JSpektr
In message <196f2577.0206...@posting.google.com>,
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>Alright, first off, I just read the text on my actual Banishment cards>instead of checking for updates and errata. Nothing on it about
It was reprinted in Final Nights, with the text change.
>younger vampires. *sigh* Does anyone else get annoyed that you can't
>actually build a VTES deck unless you're sitting in front of a
>computer with a net connection or a copy of Elder Library?
Not anywhere near half as annoyed as I got when Gideon Fontaine plays
Awe and Bewitching Oration to pass a Banishment on Sheldon in the face
of 7 hostile table votes.
The Banishment change was long overdue; original card text harshly
penalized playing with larger vampires, because the mechanics of the
game dictate that large vampires are NEVER worth as much pool as you
spend them. This leads to most large vampires spending significant
portions of each game on half or less blood, making them excellent
Banishment targets.
>> a) if your deck includes Bewitching Oration, Madrigal and Charming
>> Lobby, you don't need Bribes>
>Need the bribes for pool gain and to swing cross-table votes. They
>turned out to be crucial to several votes when I played version 2.
Bribes rules. Even if the vote fails, you gain a pool. And usually
there are at least a couple bottom-feeders on the table who are willing
to vote with you; all those scattered Primogen votes, for example.
>> b) ditto with Business Pressure - if you're willing to spend
>> blood/pool to gain votes, use Awe>
>Business Pressure isn't there to get votes. It's there to get targets
>to spend pool on votes I either don't need to pass, or votes I know I
>can outspend them on.
...specifically, it's there to get your predator and grandprey to weaken
themselves fighting over whether your prey loses pool to the KRC or not.
Be warned, if you BP a damage vote such as KRC, your prey will
automatically pitch up to 2 pool against it while it's passing, since
he'll be losing 3 anyway. Sometimes, this works in your favor when you
have a surprise Awe; sometimes you just have to take the free bleed for
2.
[ quoted text not captured ]
jspektr wrote:
> Alright, first off, I just read the text on my actual Banishment cards
> instead of checking for updates and errata. Nothing on it about
> younger vampires. *sigh* Does anyone else get annoyed that you can't
> actually build a VTES deck unless you're sitting in front of a
> computer with a net connection or a copy of Elder Library?
No. I get annoyed playing games that don't work and are filled with
broken/abusive elements.
The current version of Banishment says only younger vampires. I don't think
I own any. I still know what the card does.
>I quit playing Mage Knight and Magic because the rules constantly
>changed, and it became too much effort to recheck everything I had
>before I played each game. VTES is slowly approaching similar
>territory.
Interesting. I quit playing Diskwars 'cause they kept making stupidly broken
game elements and then refused to fix them in the name of limiting errata.
Ce' la vie.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@bigplanet.com
http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6
"I am the autumn in the scarlet
I am the make-up on your eyes"
-Kim Deal
jspektr wrote:
>
> Alright, first off, I just read the text on my actual Banishment cards
> instead of checking for updates and errata. Nothing on it about
> younger vampires. *sigh* Does anyone else get annoyed that you can't
> actually build a VTES deck unless you're sitting in front of a
> computer with a net connection or a copy of Elder Library?
The complete list of card text migrations is at
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/migration.html
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<64i5gu0imngd9q4q4...@4ax.com>...
> In message <196f2577.0206...@posting.google.com>,
> jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>> >younger vampires. *sigh* Does anyone else get annoyed that you can't
> >actually build a VTES deck unless you're sitting in front of a
> >computer with a net connection or a copy of Elder Library?
>
> Not anywhere near half as annoyed as I got when Gideon Fontaine plays
> Awe and Bewitching Oration to pass a Banishment on Sheldon in the face
> of 7 hostile table votes.
>
> The Banishment change was long overdue; original card text harshly
> penalized playing with larger vampires, because the mechanics of the
> game dictate that large vampires are NEVER worth as much pool as you
> spend them. This leads to most large vampires spending significant
> portions of each game on half or less blood, making them excellent
> Banishment targets.
I'm not saying I don't understand the reasoning behind it. I think
it's a good change. Whether or not the change is good has nothing to
do with my complaint that you have to double-check every single card
you put in your deck against the latest list of changes, just in case.
Almost every time we play, someone has to pull out the list of changes
to check something, and often someone's deck concept will be shot
because they didn't realize an important card was changed. We're good
natured about it, but it's still irritating.
It would be nice if there was an economical way for White Wolf to
reprint all the cards with significant text changes, and then just
sell them as singles. I'd happily buy new Banishments, Elysiums, and
other changed cards just so I had the real card text in front of me on
the actual card I'm playing. Sure, this can be done to a limited
extent now, but I bought several boxes of Final Nights and didn't get
enough changed cards to replace all the old ones I have. Some cards
that got changed only appeared in places like the Sabbat Wars
starters, and only one per starter. Good luck getting your hands on
those.
>
> >> a) if your deck includes Bewitching Oration, Madrigal and Charming
> >> Lobby, you don't need Bribes
> >
> >Need the bribes for pool gain and to swing cross-table votes. They
> >turned out to be crucial to several votes when I played version 2.
>
> Bribes rules. Even if the vote fails, you gain a pool. And usually
> there are at least a couple bottom-feeders on the table who are willing
> to vote with you; all those scattered Primogen votes, for example.
Agreed. If you can play the table right, Bribes can be a powerful
tool. And gaining 1 pool even if the vote fails isn't to be sneezed
at.
> >> b) ditto with Business Pressure - if you're willing to spend
> >> blood/pool to gain votes, use Awe
> >
> >Business Pressure isn't there to get votes. It's there to get targets
> >to spend pool on votes I either don't need to pass, or votes I know I
> >can outspend them on.
>
> ...specifically, it's there to get your predator and grandprey to weaken
> themselves fighting over whether your prey loses pool to the KRC or not.
>
> Be warned, if you BP a damage vote such as KRC, your prey will
> automatically pitch up to 2 pool against it while it's passing, since
> he'll be losing 3 anyway. Sometimes, this works in your favor when you
> have a surprise Awe; sometimes you just have to take the free bleed for
> 2.
I usually put the Business Pressure out first if it's available, and
then keep other vote mods in reserve. People frequently forget Echo of
Harmonies is played by non-acting minions, making it easy to get in
two, four, or even six surprise votes. Again, it's up to playing the
table, if you pull out a Business Pressure on an important vote that
changes the balance of the table, a lot of pool can end up getting
spent, weakening everyone.
I'm looking at changing the deck around a bit, and throwing in a
couple of Red Herrings and Mirror Images, along with 3 Chimestry
master cards and 8 Sanguine Instructions (taking out the Choirs and
some master cards). The idea is to use Gael's inherent inferior
Chimestry with a skill card and Sanguine Instruction to boost
everyone's capacity and make the Banishments more usable (one of the
other Daughters can SI Gael for superior Presence). Gael can also SI
with Fortitude.
JSpektr
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3D03C1EB...@white-wolf.com>...
> jspektr wrote:
> >
> > Alright, first off, I just read the text on my actual Banishment cards
> > instead of checking for updates and errata. Nothing on it about
> > younger vampires. *sigh* Does anyone else get annoyed that you can't
> > actually build a VTES deck unless you're sitting in front of a
> > computer with a net connection or a copy of Elder Library?
>
> The complete list of card text migrations is at
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/migration.html
Yeah, thanks. I'll assume that wasn't meant to sound condescending.
Note the whole "computer with a net connection" was intended to imply
one was using said computer to look up the list of card text
migrations.
One of the members of my playgroup has a binder with print-outs of all
the changed cards. The binder is very large, because the list is also
very large. That makes it a pain to look through. I use a handheld
Panasonic computer with a copy of Elder Library, but it's still
annoying to check each card.
I understand and appreciate that VTES is a very complex game, and that
makes it difficult to predict all the consequences of a given card
when it is designed, or how it will change older cards. I also
understand and appreciate why we need errata, and why cards are
changed. That understanding and appreciation in no way changes the
validity of my complaint that you must either throw out all your
changed cards, or spend a great deal of time checking all of them when
making decks. While I have a very good memory, I also have a real
life, and committing all the changed card texts to memory isn't
something I feel should be required to enjoy the game.
JSpektr
In message <196f2577.02060...@posting.google.com>,
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>I'm not saying I don't understand the reasoning behind it. I think>it's a good change. Whether or not the change is good has nothing to
>do with my complaint that you have to double-check every single card
>you put in your deck against the latest list of changes, just in case.
Would you rather check lists before building a deck and have a decently
balanced game, or just go back to weenie PRE/vote push?
I'll be the first to admit that I have a good memory, and rarely need to
check the card lists for anything -- how often do you need to refresh
yourself on what Majesty, Torn Signpost, or KRC do? But then, I also
make a point of building decks with the newest cards I own, and I'm
slowly cycling all the "old" copies into the giveaway box. This means
that while I only own 2 new Banishments, I'll be looking at the correct
text at some point when I build the deck, which saves looking through
ELDB. Though, I build decks at my desk, and I already have ELDB up most
of the time in order to optimize my crypt. The search takes very little
time, and so at least I can be certain that MY deck is current-text
legal. I can't control anyone else's, of course.
>Almost every time we play, someone has to pull out the list of changes
>to check something, and often someone's deck concept will be shot
>because they didn't realize an important card was changed. We're good
>natured about it, but it's still irritating.
...check key cards first?
Seriously, the vast majority of cards can be dismissed out of hand as
"obviously no errata". In the deck I posted in my response to HD, the
number of cards that have received errata or rulings that significantly
changed their function are:
Fame (controller of famous vamp loses pool)
Immortal Grapple (no longer lasts entire combat)
And that's it. Both of those cards have been reprinted multiple times,
and I'm not sure ANYONE doesn't know the IG ruling these days, what with
how much in demand they were. All the rest of the cards are of
ridiculous simplicity: Resilience, "prevent 3 non-agg damage".
Taste of Vitae and Torn Signpost received clarifications, neither of
which changed the card's basic function; Taste still reads "I gain
blood", Signpost still reads "I hit harder". Finding out the Immortal
Grapple ruling as a surprise wouldn't break a deck, as it still performs
mostly the same as before.
This means that 1 card out of 90 needed to be checked, and the vast
majority didn't even need to be looked at; how likely is it that Bum's
Rush got changed, for example?
>It would be nice if there was an economical way for White Wolf to
>reprint all the cards with significant text changes, and then just
>sell them as singles. I'd happily buy new Banishments, Elysiums, and
Most reprints happen in the starter decks. Aim for those if you want
updated copies of stuff.
>other changed cards just so I had the real card text in front of me on
>the actual card I'm playing. Sure, this can be done to a limited
>extent now, but I bought several boxes of Final Nights and didn't get
>enough changed cards to replace all the old ones I have. Some cards
>that got changed only appeared in places like the Sabbat Wars
>starters, and only one per starter. Good luck getting your hands on
>those.
...you only need one to both know that it's changed, and to prove to
your playgroup that it's changed if they're of the "if I can't see the
card it ain't real" variety. Most groups are willing to accept the
website listing.
>I usually put the Business Pressure out first if it's available, and
>then keep other vote mods in reserve. People frequently forget Echo of
>Harmonies is played by non-acting minions, making it easy to get in
>two, four, or even six surprise votes. Again, it's up to playing the
>table, if you pull out a Business Pressure on an important vote that
>changes the balance of the table, a lot of pool can end up getting
>spent, weakening everyone.
I made the finals of a tournament at DragonCon last year with a Business
Pressure deck; my third-round table spent itself down to 1-3 pool en
masse arguing over whether I should be allowed to oust my stealth/bleed
predator in self defense, and whether I'd be a worse threat. In
retrospect (I gained 4VP at that table), they probably should've just
let me kill him WITHOUT blowing all the pool trying to stop me. =)
>some master cards). The idea is to use Gael's inherent inferior
>Chimestry with a skill card and Sanguine Instruction to boost
>everyone's capacity and make the Banishments more usable (one of the
>other Daughters can SI Gael for superior Presence). Gael can also SI
>with Fortitude.
I think that this plan is only suitable for a very long game.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:196f2577.0206...@posting.google.com...
> Alright, first off, I just read the text on my actual Banishment cards
> instead of checking for updates and errata. Nothing on it about
> younger vampires. *sigh* Does anyone else get annoyed that you can't
> actually build a VTES deck unless you're sitting in front of a
> computer with a net connection or a copy of Elder Library?
>
> I quit playing Mage Knight and Magic because the rules constantly
> changed, and it became too much effort to recheck everything I had
> before I played each game. VTES is slowly approaching similar
> territory.
I always use Elder Library to build my decks, it helps me keep my collection
sorted. I build the deck on paper, tweak a few things and then print out a
pick list.
"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:196f2577.0206...@posting.google.com...
> Alright, first off, I just read the text on my actual Banishment cards
> instead of checking for updates and errata. Nothing on it about
> younger vampires. *sigh* Does anyone else get annoyed that you can't
> actually build a VTES deck unless you're sitting in front of a
> computer with a net connection or a copy of Elder Library?
Sure. That's why the rules team tries to keep errata/rulings
not in the rulebook to a minimum.
Banishment was determined to be overpowered as originally
printed, so it got errata, and was reprinted with corrected
text in Final Nights. (One of the starters, I don't remember
which one. Probably Followers of Set.)
> Yeah, the "younger vampire" change to Banishment completely changes
> how the deck works. I'm kind of irritated about that. The original
> plan was to get rid of titled vampires using Banishment. With the
> errata, I'm not sure it can get around titles any more. Maybe a couple
> Command of the Harpies (good for stopping Princely Intercept decks
> too, I suppose).
Actually (sadly), Command of the Harpies also kinda sucks
now. It got errata in the Final Nights (or Sabbat War?
or both) rulebook that it's only callable by a Camarilla
vampire. One of a number of votes that have that restriction,
not all of them as currently printed. Presumably for
backstory reasons or something. (There's one Daughter that
could call it anyway, right? But that's probably not enough.)
Josh
put Command of the Harpies in a Setite deck before realizing
it was totally useless there
Joshua Duffin wrote:
> Actually (sadly), Command of the Harpies also kinda sucks
> now. It got errata in the Final Nights (or Sabbat War?
> or both) rulebook that it's only callable by a Camarilla
> vampire. One of a number of votes that have that restriction,
> not all of them as currently printed. Presumably for
> backstory reasons or something. (There's one Daughter that
> could call it anyway, right? But that's probably not enough.)
CotH got errata in [RTR 12-NOV-1995], which is the RTR that detailed
what "Non-Camarilla" meant (can't be a Prince, can't call CotH, etc.)
The errata was integrated into the next printing of the rulebook
(which was the SW rulebook).
[ quoted text not captured ]
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message news:<ug942q7...@news.supernews.com>...
> "jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> news:196f2577.0206...@posting.google.com...
> > Alright, first off, I just read the text on my actual Banishment cards
> > instead of checking for updates and errata. Nothing on it about
> > younger vampires. *sigh* Does anyone else get annoyed that you can't
> > actually build a VTES deck unless you're sitting in front of a
> > computer with a net connection or a copy of Elder Library?
> >
> > I quit playing Mage Knight and Magic because the rules constantly
> > changed, and it became too much effort to recheck everything I had
> > before I played each game. VTES is slowly approaching similar
> > territory.
I worry about this too. There are so many rules to explain to new
players and keep track of during a game. How do we avoid a similar
fate? (people quiting or avoiding the game because it's too
complicated)
Is there a comprehensive rule book in print that we can order through
the mail or buy at a store? If so, what is it (they) called? How
much does it (they) cost?
I read through a book that had strategy tips, deck building ideas, and
other such information a few years ago. It had a black cover, read
letters or symbols on the cover, and a thin black page marker. If
anyone knows what this book is called from this description (weak as
it is), I'd like to know if it has been updated recently. And what is
it called?
Are there any other sources for the rules and basic strategy that are
fairly easy reading? Where?
> I always use Elder Library to build my decks, it helps me keep my collection
> sorted. I build the deck on paper, tweak a few things and then print out a
> pick list.
I've never used Elder Library before. How does that work? What is
the link for it? Is it really that useful??
> > The complete list of card text migrations is at
> > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/migration.html
>
> Yeah, thanks. I'll assume that wasn't meant to sound condescending.
LSJ, when he's posting as the netrep, is very brief. It's not meant
to be rude, but to save time. He probably spent hours creating the
page at the link above, and so when someone's complaint sounds like "I
wish the card text changes were easier to follow", he provides the
link to the page he made.
> Note the whole "computer with a net connection" was intended to imply
> one was using said computer to look up the list of card text
> migrations.
>
> One of the members of my playgroup has a binder with print-outs of all
> the changed cards. The binder is very large, because the list is also
> very large. That makes it a pain to look through. I use a handheld
> Panasonic computer with a copy of Elder Library, but it's still
> annoying to check each card.
Most of the important changes are easy to remember:
Zip Gun + Dragon Breath is broken. No ammo cards for ZG.
Pulled Fangs is broken. No agg damage.
Tomb of Rameses is broken. No free blood.
Banishment is broken. No older vampires.
Just remember everything that's way too strong. Those cards have
errata.
> I understand and appreciate that VTES is a very complex game, and that
> makes it difficult to predict all the consequences of a given card
> when it is designed, or how it will change older cards. I also
> understand and appreciate why we need errata, and why cards are
> changed. That understanding and appreciation in no way changes the
> validity of my complaint that you must either throw out all your
> changed cards, or spend a great deal of time checking all of them when
> making decks. While I have a very good memory, I also have a real
> life, and committing all the changed card texts to memory isn't
> something I feel should be required to enjoy the game.
You don't have to, just remember the big changes on important cards.
"Dr. Jest's ability is optional" and "Melange works on an ally as well
as a vampire" aren't usually things you have to remember.
Read the list ahead of time, to prevent sour grapes, and don't worry
if you forget most of it. There are 10 Dr. Jests for every one
Banishment.
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message news:<ug942q7...@news.supernews.com>...
> I always use Elder Library to build my decks, it helps me keep my collection> sorted. I build the deck on paper, tweak a few things and then print out a
> pick list.
I've been trying to use it more often, it definately makes it easier
to check the current text on things. Even when I use Elder Library
though I end up changing things as I go through my actual cards, which
means another trip to the computer to make sure some obscure rare I
just stuck in hasn't been changed.
BTW, does anyone know what happened to the Elder Library web site? The
address I have for it is no longer valid.
JSpektr
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4d98guk5cq8iup0ia...@4ax.com>...
> In message <196f2577.02060...@posting.google.com>,
> jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>
> >I'm not saying I don't understand the reasoning behind it. I think
> >it's a good change. Whether or not the change is good has nothing to
> >do with my complaint that you have to double-check every single card
> >you put in your deck against the latest list of changes, just in case.
>
> Would you rather check lists before building a deck and have a decently
> balanced game, or just go back to weenie PRE/vote push
There's no either/or requirement here. As I stated above, being
annoyed at the multitude of erratas is a separate concept from the
question of whether it is good or bad for the game. I think the change
to Banishment is good (as stated above). I also think it's a pain in
the ass to double check every card when you make a deck. Two
completely different statements.
> >It would be nice if there was an economical way for White Wolf to
> >reprint all the cards with significant text changes, and then just
> >sell them as singles. I'd happily buy new Banishments, Elysiums, and
>
> Most reprints happen in the starter decks. Aim for those if you want
> updated copies of stuff.
Maybe you should look at the current prices on Sabbat War starters,
where several changed cards were reprinted. The Ventrue Antitribu
starter, which has the change Telepathic Vote Counting if I recall
correctly, is currently very difficult to find. I ended up buying one
from Slovenia on eBay, for $18 with shipping (though that was to get
another copy of Daniel Day, to be honest).
I think it would be a very good thing if the Camarilla set contained
the bulk of the changed cards, at least the ones appropriate for the
set (ie: no changed Sabbat-only cards, obviously). At least that would
get a large number of the changed cards into wide circulation.
> >I usually put the Business Pressure out first if it's available, and
> >then keep other vote mods in reserve. People frequently forget Echo of
> >Harmonies is played by non-acting minions, making it easy to get in
> >two, four, or even six surprise votes. Again, it's up to playing the
> >table, if you pull out a Business Pressure on an important vote that
> >changes the balance of the table, a lot of pool can end up getting
> >spent, weakening everyone.
>
> I made the finals of a tournament at DragonCon last year with a Business
> Pressure deck; my third-round table spent itself down to 1-3 pool en
> masse arguing over whether I should be allowed to oust my stealth/bleed
> predator in self defense, and whether I'd be a worse threat. In
> retrospect (I gained 4VP at that table), they probably should've just
> let me kill him WITHOUT blowing all the pool trying to stop me. =)
It's a very good card. Now that the Banishments seem unworkable, I am
thinking of putting in more Business Pressures and changing the
Banishments to votes that affect the whole table more, to encourage
other players to spend pool on votes. Maybe Autarkis Persecution (I
suppose I could get people to spend anticipating making it back when
it passes, then cast all my own votes against it) or Ancillae
Empowerment.
> >some master cards). The idea is to use Gael's inherent inferior
> >Chimestry with a skill card and Sanguine Instruction to boost
> >everyone's capacity and make the Banishments more usable (one of the
> >other Daughters can SI Gael for superior Presence). Gael can also SI
> >with Fortitude.
>
> I think that this plan is only suitable for a very long game.
Yeah, I suspect it won't work that well, even with more Freak Drives.
But ideas are best tested through playing, so that's what I intend to
do.
JSpektr
"HD" <hdma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0922a66.0206...@posting.google.com...
> Is there a comprehensive rule book in print that we can order through
> the mail or buy at a store? If so, what is it (they) called? How
> much does it (they) cost?
No, there is not...aside from the one in the Final Nights starter decks. The
general problem with printed rulebooks is that they can quickly become outdated,
as I'm sure you are aware.
> I read through a book that had strategy tips, deck building ideas, and
> other such information a few years ago. It had a black cover, read
Darkness Unveiled.
> it is), I'd like to know if it has been updated recently. And what is
> it called?
It was never reprinted, as it was published by WotC, *and* it was a piece of
crap. A lot of the stuff in there was out-of-date before the book was
published, or shortly thereafter, and the strategy guide was completely nuts.
("Combat Decks...Rely on normal bleeds, since anything that dares to block will
soon end up dead or in torpor." Not if he has any sort of pool gain. "Defense:
Anything that you can block will soon end up either dead or in torpor." I would
like to emphasize the word 'can'.) You can still probably buy it from 'net
dealers, though. Last I checked, www.potomacdist.com had it...you can look for
yourself, or Jeff will correct me before you even get a chance to read this
post. :)
> Are there any other sources for the rules and basic strategy that are
> fairly easy reading? Where?
Many of the *big* websites have strategy articles on them, or linked on them.
Start with www.thelasombra.com . I'm trying to put more on my website, but my
web-related work has not been top-priority recently (I haven't even updated my
link to PDB6's website yet, I think...).
[ELDB]
> I've never used Elder Library before. How does that work? What is
> the link for it? Is it really that useful??
It's a Microsoft *.mdb file with a nifty gui front end that David
Anderson-Davila created. It's very nice. You can run it on basically any
Windows OS. I believe there is a link for it on the White Wolf V:tES webpage,
under Other Resources or something. And yes, it's really that useful. If
you've used Ethan Burrow's (of V:EKN Austin, TX) Monger tools, ELDB is similar,
but doesn't require an internet connection. As a matter of fact, I'm using ELDB
right now. Oh, it also has an inventory available, but it's a little
finicky...you must move to another field after entering a number, otherwise your
most recent entry will be lost.
Xian
In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>,
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>There's no either/or requirement here. As I stated above, being>annoyed at the multitude of erratas is a separate concept from the
>question of whether it is good or bad for the game. I think the change
>to Banishment is good (as stated above). I also think it's a pain in
>the ass to double check every card when you make a deck. Two
>completely different statements.
However, the statements are mutually exclusive. You get to have one, OR
the other. There isn't both. Either you have to check for errata
sometimes (and we all know perfectly well that you don't have to check
every single card), or you have to put up with broken cards.
There isn't really a "both" option there.
>> Most reprints happen in the starter decks. Aim for those if you want
>> updated copies of stuff.>
>Maybe you should look at the current prices on Sabbat War starters,
I looked at the prices on Sabbat War starters when it was released,
actually, and bought quite a few of them then. Same with FN. Same with
Bloodlines. I'm not interested in turning around a year from now and
going "doh! where will i find these cards on the cheap?" Well, that's
easy; on the release date.
The set's what, a year and a half old now? At least? Sold out one
printing, and probably two? I'm not surprised it's difficult to find.
It's a collectible card game. Stuff doesn't stay on the market forever
unless it's an "unlimited base set."
>where several changed cards were reprinted. The Ventrue Antitribu
actually, MANY changed cards were reprinted in SW and FN. Many of those
changes are minor and don't affect the function of the card, but card
text is card text... (Trap, for example, is MUCH nicer in the new
versions, although it does the exact same thing as the old versions).
>starter, which has the change Telepathic Vote Counting if I recall
>correctly, is currently very difficult to find. I ended up buying one
>from Slovenia on eBay, for $18 with shipping (though that was to get
>another copy of Daniel Day, to be honest).
...you only need one to prove things to people.
>I think it would be a very good thing if the Camarilla set contained
>the bulk of the changed cards, at least the ones appropriate for the
>set (ie: no changed Sabbat-only cards, obviously). At least that would
>get a large number of the changed cards into wide circulation.
let's see, new unlimited base set; ya THINK it's likely to have a few
reprints? This is supposed to be the set that new players should go
after, right? That means it needs to contain lots of staple cards.
Staple cards always came from the Jyhad/V:TES sets... (barring
occasional exceptions, such as Pursuit).
[ quoted text not captured ]
>
>Xian wrote
> >
> >HD wrote> >
> > Is there a comprehensive rule book in print that we can order through
> > the mail or buy at a store? If so, what is it (they) called? How
> > much does it (they) cost?
>
> No, there is not...aside from the one in the Final Nights starter decks. The
> general problem with printed rulebooks is that they can quickly become outdated,
> as I'm sure you are aware.
I guess it would be too difficult (and expensive) to keep a hard copy
of the rules updated every few months. I'm looking for something that
I can hand to a new player so they can thumb through it to get a
general understanding of the game in a few minutes (large text,
pictures, graphics... very user friendly). But in the meantime, I'll
just have to stick with those little Final Nights rule books.
I wonder if White Wolf will print a card with the preconstructed decks
with some basic information
Example:
- Untap
- Master Phase
- Minon Phase
etc....
With a short explination of each phase. The other side could contain
basic descriptions of combat, votes, and other actions. It might be
useful if it was done correctly.
> > I read through a book that had strategy tips, deck building ideas, and
> > other such information a few years ago. It had a black cover, read
>
> Darkness Unveiled.
>
> > it is), I'd like to know if it has been updated recently. And what is
> > it called?
>
> It was never reprinted, as it was published by WotC, *and* it was a piece of
> crap. A lot of the stuff in there was out-of-date before the book was
> published, or shortly thereafter, and the strategy guide was completely nuts.
> ("Combat Decks...Rely on normal bleeds, since anything that dares to block will
> soon end up dead or in torpor." Not if he has any sort of pool gain. "Defense:
> Anything that you can block will soon end up either dead or in torpor." I would
> like to emphasize the word 'can'.) You can still probably buy it from 'net
> dealers, though.
Sounds like it was pretty lame. I'll probably skip it and keep
looking.
Last I checked, www.potomacdist.com had it...you can look for
> yourself, or Jeff will correct me before you even get a chance to read this
> post. :)
He's got a ton of information. I should check his web site to see
what I can find there...
> > Are there any other sources for the rules and basic strategy that are
> > fairly easy reading? Where?
>
> Many of the *big* websites have strategy articles on them, or linked on them.
> Start with www.thelasombra.com . I'm trying to put more on my website, but my
> web-related work has not been top-priority recently (I haven't even updated my
> link to PDB6's website yet, I think...).
>
> [ELDB]
> > I've never used Elder Library before. How does that work? What is
> > the link for it? Is it really that useful??
>
> It's a Microsoft *.mdb file with a nifty gui front end that David
> Anderson-Davila created. It's very nice. You can run it on basically any
> Windows OS. I believe there is a link for it on the White Wolf V:tES webpage,
> under Other Resources or something. And yes, it's really that useful. If
> you've used Ethan Burrow's (of V:EKN Austin, TX) Monger tools, ELDB is similar,
I really like Ethan's Library Monger and Crypt Monger tools. They're
very helpful and easy to use. If ELDB is anything like that, then I
should download it and check it out. I hope it doesn't take too long
(my computer's kind of old and slow).
> but doesn't require an internet connection. As a matter of fact, I'm using ELDB
> right now. Oh, it also has an inventory available, but it's a little
> finicky...you must move to another field after entering a number, otherwise your
> most recent entry will be lost.
>
> Xian
Thanks for all the information! :o)
Howard
firstco...@aol.com (Brian) wrote in message news:<80bafd85.02061...@posting.google.com>...
> > > The complete list of card text migrations is at
> > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/migration.html
> >
> > Yeah, thanks. I'll assume that wasn't meant to sound condescending.
>
> LSJ, when he's posting as the netrep, is very brief. It's not meant
> to be rude, but to save time. He probably spent hours creating the
> page at the link above, and so when someone's complaint sounds like "I
> wish the card text changes were easier to follow", he provides the
> link to the page he made.
First off, I didn't complain that the text changes were hard to
follow. I complained that there are so many of them that checking them
becomes burdensome. Posting a link to the changes doesn't really
address that complaint.
While I appreciate that LSJ works hard, I would also advise him to
take the time to be tactful. He's the public face of VTES on the
internet. If I was a more reactionary person, I might have gotten
angry and lost a lot of my enthusiasm for the game. The post was about
being angry at flaws in the game, and having the net rep respond in a
way that could be interpretted as negative is a very poor way to sell
the game.
If there isn't enough time to understand a post fully and craft an
appropriate response, it is probably better to not respond at all. One
post taken the wrong way will undo the work of 20 posts that come
across as they are meant to.
> Just remember everything that's way too strong. Those cards have
> errata.
That's good advice, but the point was that you have to check things
that aren't obvious. Like Elysium. It made sense to me that a unique
master card that can be gotten rid of by a vote could stop combat
between two vampires regardless of sect. Now it only works with
Camarilla vampires, making it practically useless. That was neither
too strong nor obvious, at least to me, and the change took several of
us by surprise at last week's game, significantly harming one player's
deck.
Most of my play group doesn't read the newsgroup, doesn't bother with
the errata lists, and is of the opinion that if you can't play the
game with the cards as they are, the game is broken and not really
worth their time. They're there to have fun, not spend hours searching
for the secret hidden text that isn't on the cards in front of them.
If my job didn't involve me being in front of a computer most of the
day, making it easy to check these things and follow the news group, I
think I'd probably agree with them.
JSpektr
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<tvqagu4lp0lfgd6cm...@4ax.com>...
> In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>,
> jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>
> >There's no either/or requirement here. As I stated above, being
> >annoyed at the multitude of erratas is a separate concept from the
> >question of whether it is good or bad for the game. I think the change
> >to Banishment is good (as stated above). I also think it's a pain in
> >the ass to double check every card when you make a deck. Two
> >completely different statements.
>
> However, the statements are mutually exclusive. You get to have one, OR
> the other. There isn't both. Either you have to check for errata
> sometimes (and we all know perfectly well that you don't have to check
> every single card), or you have to put up with broken cards.
Completely untrue. I can check the list, "fixing" the cards, and still
find it a pain in the ass. Not mutually exclusive at all. Unless
you're suggesting it's not possible to find a necessary task
distasteful?
> >> Most reprints happen in the starter decks. Aim for those if you want
> >> updated copies of stuff.
> >
> >Maybe you should look at the current prices on Sabbat War starters,
>
> I looked at the prices on Sabbat War starters when it was released,
> actually, and bought quite a few of them then. Same with FN. Same with
> Bloodlines. I'm not interested in turning around a year from now and
> going "doh! where will i find these cards on the cheap?" Well, that's
> easy; on the release date.
>
> The set's what, a year and a half old now? At least? Sold out one
> printing, and probably two? I'm not surprised it's difficult to find.
> It's a collectible card game. Stuff doesn't stay on the market forever
> unless it's an "unlimited base set."
I started playing with Jyhad, and quit around Sabbat. I just started
playing again shortly before Bloodlines. Part of my complaint is that
I now have to go hunt down expensive out of print starter boxes to
have up to date copies of my old cards, which used to be fine as they
were. Are you suggesting that no old players should ever return to the
game, or that they should throw out their old collections and start
over?
Some of the changes to old cards have been neccessitated by new cards.
Elysium used to work on all vampires because they were all Camarilla,
no need to limit it. Banishment used to be less of a problem, because
there were less small vampires that could successfully push a vote
through. The dynamics of the game have changed, and that's good, but
it's unfortunate that it's created situations that have broken older
cards.
JSpektr
jspektr wrote:
> firstco...@aol.com (Brian) wrote in message> > > > The complete list of card text migrations is at
> > > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/migration.html
> > >
> > > Yeah, thanks. I'll assume that wasn't meant to sound condescending.
> >> I would also advise him to
> take the time to be tactful. He's the public face of VTES on the
> internet. If I was a more reactionary person, I might have gotten
> angry and lost a lot of my enthusiasm for the game. The post was about
> being angry at flaws in the game, and having the net rep respond in a
> way that could be interpretted as negative is a very poor way to sell
> the game.
Please.
You complained about needing a 'puter with net connection or ELDB.
Being a rational person myself, I concluded that you consider a
download (e.g., ELDB) different from the 'puter with a net connection
(that is you were distinguishing between being online during the game
with having ever had net access in the past).
Since there was a third option - the text migration list - that you
had missed, I pointed it out.
If there's offense in that, feel free to take it with you.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"HD" <hdma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0922a66.02061...@posting.google.com...
> I guess it would be too difficult (and expensive) to keep a hard copy
> of the rules updated every few months. I'm looking for something that
> I can hand to a new player so they can thumb through it to get a
> general understanding of the game in a few minutes (large text,
> pictures, graphics... very user friendly). But in the meantime, I'll
> just have to stick with those little Final Nights rule books.
No pictures, but on the WW website, there's a (huge) photoshop file that is an
excellent playmat (about the size of a placemat for your dinner table), and has
pretty much all of the general stuff that one would need to know. It has an
uncontrolled region, with a detailed explanation of transfers (and starting
transfers), has the turn sequence, lots of others good stuff on it. One could
take it to a professional printer and have a number of them run off and
laminated. I think that Jeff mentioned that it was about $50 for 25 or 30 of
them, and the largest single charge was due to the necessity of one of the
employees opening the file.
Anyway, it's something like a 30 Mb file, so that might be a little tough on
your computer, I dunno, but if you (or someone you know) has a fast net
connection, you could download it, and at least take a look to see if it's
something like what you're looking for.
Oh, and ELDB is about...10 Mb. Might take a while on 56K, but again, if you
have a good net connection, it's definitely worth it to be able to do
Monger-stuff offline.
Xian
jsp...@sprynet.com asked:
> BTW, does anyone know what happened to the Elder Library web site?
MediaOne.net left their customers out to dry when they sold their
broadband internet access to AT&T. David Davila has not found
another webhost that will allow 10MB downloads at a time, and he
hasn't been real interested in looking. He played at the Southeast
Regional Qualifier, but hadn't been seen by local players for 2-3
months prior to that.
The ELDB is still available from White Wolf's site, here:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/downloads/eldb3.0_setup.zip
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
http://www.TheLasombra.com
In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>,
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<tvqagu4lp0lfgd6cm...@4ax.com>...>> However, the statements are mutually exclusive. You get to have one, OR
>> the other. There isn't both. Either you have to check for errata
>> sometimes (and we all know perfectly well that you don't have to check
>> every single card), or you have to put up with broken cards.>
>Completely untrue. I can check the list, "fixing" the cards, and still
>find it a pain in the ass. Not mutually exclusive at all. Unless
>you're suggesting it's not possible to find a necessary task
>distasteful?
No, I'm suggesting that you need to improve your attitude/deal with
it/quit bitching, because the facts of the situation (EXCLUDING your
opinion) REMAIN an either-or situation; therefore your "pain in the ass"
won't be going away. Not everything in life is easy. I'd prefer not to
have to check weird cards for errata before I include them, too. But I
vastly prefer having to check for errata to having to deal with broken
shit in my game.
>> The set's what, a year and a half old now? At least? Sold out one
>> printing, and probably two? I'm not surprised it's difficult to find.
>> It's a collectible card game. Stuff doesn't stay on the market forever
>> unless it's an "unlimited base set.">
>I started playing with Jyhad, and quit around Sabbat. I just started
>playing again shortly before Bloodlines. Part of my complaint is that
>I now have to go hunt down expensive out of print starter boxes to
>have up to date copies of my old cards, which used to be fine as they
Your 8-year-old cards, you mean?
>were. Are you suggesting that no old players should ever return to the
>game, or that they should throw out their old collections and start
>over?
Good lord, I'm SO sorry. You abandoned a game because you thought it
was dead, or because you thought it was broken, and you think that you
should have all the benefits of staying with the game through the "dead"
period handed to you on a silver platter?
I repeat: It is a collectible card game. Stuff doesn't stay on the
market forever, nor will it. You know PERFECTLY well that I am not
suggesting that old players should ever return, but things change over
the course of 8 years, and players who are too hidebound to accept this,
well, that's just going to be their problem. And if you leave a game,
you should expect to miss some things. You have to deal with it.
>Some of the changes to old cards have been neccessitated by new cards.
>Elysium used to work on all vampires because they were all Camarilla,
>no need to limit it. Banishment used to be less of a problem, because
Wrong on Elysium. Elysium made combat decks almost totally non-viable,
all on its own. Rush decks could ALMOST get through it with multiple
actions, Rampage, and including a copy of Elysium to contest. It wasn't
worth it to play decks with only a few Rush actions, because those decks
could NEVER get through Elysium, and someone would always have it at the
table.
Wrong on Banishment. There have always been a TON of small vampires
with Presence; think "5-cap and under". A 4-cap Banishing Sheldon is no
less annoying than a 1-cap doing it -- it still penalizes the player
using large vampires far too harshly.
>there were less small vampires that could successfully push a vote
>through. The dynamics of the game have changed, and that's good, but
>it's unfortunate that it's created situations that have broken older
>cards.
Both the cards you mention have been "broken" since they were printed.
Nothing about the current dynamics of the game has caused this.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <c0922a66.02061...@posting.google.com>,
hdma...@hotmail.com (HD) mumbled something about:
>pictures, graphics... very user friendly). But in the meantime, I'll
>just have to stick with those little Final Nights rule books.
>
>I wonder if White Wolf will print a card with the preconstructed decks
>with some basic information
>
>Example:
>
>- Untap
>
>- Master Phase
>
>- Minon Phase
>>With a short explination of each phase. The other side could contain
>basic descriptions of combat, votes, and other actions. It might be
>useful if it was done correctly.
The back of the Final Nights rulebook (and the Sabbat War rulebook as
well, I believe) has exactly what you're looking for on it.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ac1cguo4klf90ualf...@4ax.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Yeah...we discovered this a week after teaching a new player. Oops. It
would have made his life a LOT easier the first couple games. Alas, it is
there for quick reference, which I seem to need every turn. Still can't get
it through my head that you discard AFTER influencing... :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ti0cgu83d4mi8evll...@4ax.com>...
> In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>,
> jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>
> >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<tvqagu4lp0lfgd6cm...@4ax.com>...> No, I'm suggesting that you need to improve your attitude/deal with> it/quit bitching, because the facts of the situation (EXCLUDING your
> opinion) REMAIN an either-or situation; therefore your "pain in the ass"
> won't be going away. Not everything in life is easy. I'd prefer not to
> have to check weird cards for errata before I include them, too. But I
> vastly prefer having to check for errata to having to deal with broken
> shit in my game.
You might want to consider changing your own attitude. I enjoy VTES. I
thought the changes were good. I thought it was annoying that I have
to check the errata list. It is unfortunate that my having an opinion
that something is annoying causes you great personal pain. It's also
unfortunate that you cannot understand that I can find something 100%
correct and good, yet also annoying at the same time. In no way do I
want to have broken cards, nor have I ever said such.
> >were. Are you suggesting that no old players should ever return to the
> >game, or that they should throw out their old collections and start
> >over?
>
> Good lord, I'm SO sorry. You abandoned a game because you thought it
> was dead, or because you thought it was broken, and you think that you
> should have all the benefits of staying with the game through the "dead"
> period handed to you on a silver platter?
Ah, I see. You're not actually reading my posts at all. You're
creating entirely new ones in your head, and responding to those. That
makes things much clearer. If you'd just state up front that you're
delusional, it would make things easier on all of us.
I don't know what your problem is. It's not like I drove to your house
and kicked your dog. I never abandoned any game. The game itself
vanished after Sabbat, we bought all the available stock from area
stores, and the people I played with moved away, graduated, got jobs,
etc. I was pleasantly surprised to find out White Wolf had started
making new cards one day when I saw them in a comic shop (very few
shops in this area carry them). It happened to coincide with my
finding my old cards in the basement while moving, so I dug them out,
bought some new Final Nights boosters, and got some other friends that
still had old cards to start playing.
No expectation of silver platters here. I just said it was annoying
when old cards were changed, for reasons that weren't immediately
obvious to me. Not sure why that bothers you so much. You might
consider seeking councelling for it.
> >Some of the changes to old cards have been neccessitated by new cards.
> >Elysium used to work on all vampires because they were all Camarilla,
> >no need to limit it. Banishment used to be less of a problem, because
>
> Wrong on Elysium. Elysium made combat decks almost totally non-viable,
> all on its own. Rush decks could ALMOST get through it with multiple
> actions, Rampage, and including a copy of Elysium to contest. It wasn't
> worth it to play decks with only a few Rush actions, because those decks
> could NEVER get through Elysium, and someone would always have it at the
> table.
Maybe that's true for you. I played for years with the old version,
and we never had a problem with it. Being able to cancel a single
combat was never a problem for a good combat deck. Obviously, your
experience might have been different, but that's the points, isn't it?
I said that TO ME Elysium seemed just fine, which is why TO ME the
change came as a surprise. I think it's rather arrogant for you to
tell me my opinion, based on my own experiences and applying only to
me, is wrong.
>
> Wrong on Banishment. There have always been a TON of small vampires
> with Presence; think "5-cap and under". A 4-cap Banishing Sheldon is no
> less annoying than a 1-cap doing it -- it still penalizes the player
> using large vampires far too harshly.
If you want to say that, go ahead. We never had a problem with it.
Again, that's why TO ME and MY experience, it was never an issue.
We've been playing with the old version since we started playing again
last fall, and we STILL don't have a problem with it. Sure, there have
been weenie vote decks on the table, but they're usually taken apart
rather easily. Again, maybe in your environment they're a problem,
over here in St. Louis they haven't been.
> Both the cards you mention have been "broken" since they were printed.
> Nothing about the current dynamics of the game has caused this.
To you. Not to me. That's the point.
JSpektr
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3D05E4FD...@white-wolf.com>...
> jspektr wrote:
> > firstco...@aol.com (Brian) wrote in message
> > > > > The complete list of card text migrations is at
> > > > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/migration.html
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, thanks. I'll assume that wasn't meant to sound condescending.
> > >
> > I would also advise him to
> > take the time to be tactful. He's the public face of VTES on the
> > internet. If I was a more reactionary person, I might have gotten
> > angry and lost a lot of my enthusiasm for the game. The post was about
> > being angry at flaws in the game, and having the net rep respond in a
> > way that could be interpretted as negative is a very poor way to sell
> > the game.
>
> Please.
>
> You complained about needing a 'puter with net connection or ELDB.
>
> Being a rational person myself, I concluded that you consider a
> download (e.g., ELDB) different from the 'puter with a net connection
> (that is you were distinguishing between being online during the game
> with having ever had net access in the past).
>
> Since there was a third option - the text migration list - that you
> had missed, I pointed it out.
>
> If there's offense in that, feel free to take it with you.
I wasn't offended. I was just pointing out that what you wrote could
have been taken that way.
This seems to be an artifact of the web, and the way it allows
representatives of companies to have much more intimate contact with
the consumer. Said representatives tend to adopt an informal attitude,
and don't worry so much about what they say. I see it in the comic and
roleplaying industry, where many consumers can have direct
communications with the people that create the things they buy. I
don't think that's always a good thing, because then the consumers'
opinions of the representative can bias their decisions on whether to
buy the product.
Consider, is it worth making one VTES customer, who over a lifetime
could easily spend several thousand dollars on VTES products, angry
and alienated, just so you can save a few minutes? Maybe it is to you,
it's your right to feel that way. I've worked in advertising for many
years, and that's not a particularly good way to expand your market.
Think about it this way: you, LSJ, are the customer support for all of
VTES. If your computer was broken, and you called up Dell, and you
complained that they had issued too many updates to their bios and
drivers, and you weren't sure which ones you needed to make your
computer work again, how would you feel if their response was "here's
the page with the list of updates." Would you be happy, and more
likely to buy future Dell products?
Obviously, it doesn't matter that much to me what you think about
this. I can buy or not buy the cards and play or not play the game as
I choose. Your methods and attitudes won't change that to any great
degree. But if I am going to continue playing, it'd be nice if it was
as easy as possible to get new players into the game. Under that
scenario, it'd be nice if VTES had friendly custumer support, not
"shut up and deal with it."
JSpektr
thela...@hotmail.com (The Lasombra) wrote in message news:<132cdedd.02061...@posting.google.com>...
> jsp...@sprynet.com asked:
>
> > BTW, does anyone know what happened to the Elder Library web site?
>
>
> MediaOne.net left their customers out to dry when they sold their
> broadband internet access to AT&T. David Davila has not found
> another webhost that will allow 10MB downloads at a time, and he
> hasn't been real interested in looking. He played at the Southeast
> Regional Qualifier, but hadn't been seen by local players for 2-3
> months prior to that.
Sorry to hear that. I would suggest
http://www.nexpoint.net/w2kspecial.php , Nexpoint is running an
unlimited bandwidth special, and if you buy a year at once, it runs
less than $10 a month. I'm considering moving my portfolio site there,
as I've just added some large Flash files that are draining my
bandwidth.
Has he considered releasing the sourcefile, if he's no longer
interested in keeping it up on the web? I'd imagine quite a few people
would be interested in that.
JSpektr
In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>,
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ti0cgu83d4mi8evll...@4ax.com>...>> won't be going away. Not everything in life is easy. I'd prefer not to
>> have to check weird cards for errata before I include them, too. But I
>> vastly prefer having to check for errata to having to deal with broken
>> shit in my game.>
>You might want to consider changing your own attitude. I enjoy VTES. I
>thought the changes were good. I thought it was annoying that I have
Except that you obviously didn't, since you felt the need to post:
"I quit playing Mage Knight and Magic because the rules constantly
changed, and it became too much effort to recheck everything I had
before I played each game. VTES is slowly approaching similar
territory."
That sounds like a threat-to-quit whine to me. In no respect will I
ever consider this statement equivalent to "I think the changes are
good".
>to check the errata list. It is unfortunate that my having an opinion
>that something is annoying causes you great personal pain. It's also
If it caused me great personal pain, you would know.
>unfortunate that you cannot understand that I can find something 100%
>correct and good, yet also annoying at the same time. In no way do I
>want to have broken cards, nor have I ever said such.
You can hold whatever opinions you want. But the situations that you
are referring to remain mutually exclusive.
>Ah, I see. You're not actually reading my posts at all. You're
>creating entirely new ones in your head, and responding to those. That
>makes things much clearer. If you'd just state up front that you're
>delusional, it would make things easier on all of us.
*snort* What a twink. You leave the game for awhile, you come back,
and you expect everything that happened while you were gone to be
readily presented to you at your whim.
Do you not read your OWN posts?
>I don't know what your problem is. It's not like I drove to your house
>and kicked your dog. I never abandoned any game. The game itself
"I started playing with Jyhad, and quit around Sabbat. I just started
playing again shortly before Bloodlines."
>vanished after Sabbat, we bought all the available stock from area>stores, and the people I played with moved away, graduated, got jobs,
>etc. I was pleasantly surprised to find out White Wolf had started
>making new cards one day when I saw them in a comic shop (very few
>shops in this area carry them). It happened to coincide with my
>finding my old cards in the basement while moving, so I dug them out,
No, that's not "abandoned" at all. Your cards didn't have to be in the
back corner of your basement, dude.
>bought some new Final Nights boosters, and got some other friends that
>still had old cards to start playing.
And here we see why they didn't have to be stuffed away, forgotten.
>No expectation of silver platters here. I just said it was annoying
"Some cards that got changed only appeared in places like the Sabbat
Wars starters, and only one per starter. Good luck getting your hands on
those."
"Part of my complaint is that I now have to go hunt down expensive out
of print starter boxes to have up to date copies of my old cards, which
used to be fine as they were."
Nope. No expectation of silver platters here at all.
>when old cards were changed, for reasons that weren't immediately
>obvious to me. Not sure why that bothers you so much. You might
>consider seeking councelling for it.
And more twinky crap. Again, dude, if you think this bothers me, then
you really need to go back and find some of my posts where I *am*
bothered by something. You might learn some new words.
>> >Some of the changes to old cards have been neccessitated by new cards.
>> >Elysium used to work on all vampires because they were all Camarilla,
>> >no need to limit it. Banishment used to be less of a problem, because
>>
>> Wrong on Elysium. Elysium made combat decks almost totally non-viable,
>> all on its own. Rush decks could ALMOST get through it with multiple
>> actions, Rampage, and including a copy of Elysium to contest. It wasn't
>> worth it to play decks with only a few Rush actions, because those decks
>> could NEVER get through Elysium, and someone would always have it at the
>> table.>
>Maybe that's true for you. I played for years with the old version,
>and we never had a problem with it. Being able to cancel a single
Right. But errata isn't made or unmade simply by St. Louis' experience
in playing. It's made with a much wider view, one point of which is
that "can this deck be defeated by decks which are otherwise viable".
Anyone can build a deck that beats Elysium. But can they win a table
with it? When the answer to that is "no" too many times, the card is
broken and needs changing.
Realistically, I suspect the card was probably changed partly to match
Purchase Pact's 'sect' theme, and partly to make Purchase Pact even
printable (why play with PP when Elysium stops everything?). But a side
effect was that it fixed the overpowered-Elysium issue.
>combat was never a problem for a good combat deck. Obviously, your
>experience might have been different, but that's the points, isn't it?
>I said that TO ME Elysium seemed just fine, which is why TO ME the
Those capitalized words weren't in your original statement. It's
reproduced above for your viewing pleasure. Do go back and read your
own posts, please; you might be surprised at what you sound like.
>change came as a surprise. I think it's rather arrogant for you to
>tell me my opinion, based on my own experiences and applying only to
>me, is wrong.
And I think it's rather foolish of you to think that your opinion is
sacred, and nobody should ever tell you that things in the Big Wide
World are otherwise to your own experience.
My opinion is that I should be followed around by gorgeous women with
large breasts everywhere I go, ready to meet my any demand. In the Big
Wide World, this isn't going to happen for me.
>> Wrong on Banishment. There have always been a TON of small vampires
>> with Presence; think "5-cap and under". A 4-cap Banishing Sheldon is no
>> less annoying than a 1-cap doing it -- it still penalizes the player
>> using large vampires far too harshly.>
>If you want to say that, go ahead. We never had a problem with it.
Then nobody tried. Again, errata is made with a wider viewpoint than
"well, St. Louis doesn't have a problem with it".
>Again, that's why TO ME and MY experience, it was never an issue.
More of those words that were missing in your original post.
"Banishment used to be less of a problem, because there were less small
vampires that could successfully push a vote through. The dynamics of
the game have changed, and that's good, but it's unfortunate that it's
created situations that have broken older cards."
This seems to me like you're blaming the newly released sets (and the
changing dynamics they have created) for Banishment being broken. No,
it was always broken, even if you could have played it back in the
Jyhad-only days (it being DS and all). Gideon Fontaine, Violette
Prentiss, Marianna Gilbert, any inferior-PRE weenie with a skill card, a
bunch of 1-caps with 70 vote cards in the deck... and we aren't even
going into "innocuous vote, Cryptic Rider".
>We've been playing with the old version since we started playing again
>last fall, and we STILL don't have a problem with it. Sure, there have
>been weenie vote decks on the table, but they're usually taken apart
>rather easily. Again, maybe in your environment they're a problem,
>over here in St. Louis they haven't been.
Sounds to me like nobody's trying to break the game. That's fine;
usually in groups where people have fun, people DON'T try to break the
game. But sometimes others do, and sometimes the game gets broken, and
then it has to be fixed.
>> Both the cards you mention have been "broken" since they were printed.
>> Nothing about the current dynamics of the game has caused this.>
>To you. Not to me. That's the point.
You're totally missing it, dude. You're complaining about errata,
because you perceive that the errata wasn't necessary. It was. You can
yammer on about "not to you" all you want, but it won't change the fact
of the errata having been necessary in the first place, which leads to
new printings of cards, which leads to you having to check ELDB or the
webpage more than you'd like.
[ quoted text not captured ]
>Yeah...we discovered this a week after teaching a new player. Oops. It
>would have made his life a LOT easier the first couple games. Alas, it is
>there for quick reference, which I seem to need every turn. Still can't get
>it through my head that you discard AFTER influencing... :)
>
Wow! New player alert! Fill me in on all of the details Jon!
Halcyan 2
jspektr wrote:
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message> > If there's offense in that, feel free to take it with you.
>
> I wasn't offended. I was just pointing out that what you wrote could
> have been taken that way.
Either the statement has offense in it or it doesn't.
If you feel it doesn't (which is correct) then please drop the moot ramblings.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
news:196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com...
> This seems to be an artifact of the web, and the way it allows
> representatives of companies to have much more intimate contact with
> the consumer. Said representatives tend to adopt an informal attitude,
> and don't worry so much about what they say.
Of course, LSJ is actually adopting a *formal* approach to communication, in
that he responds to the questions asked, without speculation, and without
responding to the tone of the original post that he is replying to. The post
that he originally responded to sounded really whiny to me (and to at least one
or two other people, I can guarantee you), and LSJ responded to it civilly. You
can't ask for much more than that, especially when LSJ spends a good portion of
his day monitoring at least 5 online forums of some sort for rules questions,
etc. (I don't *think* he reads alt.games.jyhad...I think TheLasombra and
Legbiter are the only ones that regularly check there.)
I'm continually impressed that he is able to remain as level-headed as he does
with all of the bonehead arguments that people try to take up with him.
> Consider, is it worth making one VTES customer, who over a lifetime
> could easily spend several thousand dollars on VTES products, angry
> and alienated, just so you can save a few minutes?
In the big picture, it's not a huge deal. Sure, more customers is a good thing,
but I think that LSJ would probably end up offending more people if he didn't
simply respond to the rules-related portions of the posts.
> Under that scenario, it'd be nice if VTES had friendly custumer support, not
> "shut up and deal with it."
Hardly the case. If you address a question to LSJ, he will always take the time
to look it over, and respond. As is, LSJ responds to more questions buried in
posts than I find reasonable...I'd certainly miss a lot of them. If I were the
netrep, I wouldn't have responded to your post in the first place, because it
looked to be more complaining than an actual question about V:tES.
Xian
In message <132cdedd.02061...@posting.google.com>, The
Lasombra <thela...@hotmail.com> writes:
>MediaOne.net left their customers out to dry when they sold their
>broadband internet access to AT&T. David Davila has not found
>another webhost that will allow 10MB downloads at a time, and he
>hasn't been real interested in looking.
Offer of free web space from over here, if he wants it.
www.eldb.zephyr.org.uk or something similar can be set up.
--
James Coupe
PGP 0x5D623D5D I am woman. Here, me raw.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
13D7E668C3695D623D5D
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<nggdguo51ovvqcfcu...@4ax.com>...
> >To you. Not to me. That's the point.
>
> You're totally missing it, dude. You're complaining about errata,
> because you perceive that the errata wasn't necessary. It was. You can
> yammer on about "not to you" all you want, but it won't change the fact
> of the errata having been necessary in the first place, which leads to
> new printings of cards, which leads to you having to check ELDB or the
> webpage more than you'd like.
I've snipped all the irrelevant posturing. While I like a flame war as
good as the next guy, I suppose if Mr. Ray and I want to have a
pissing contest, we can do it over e-mail.
Perhaps I'm not communicating my point well, perhaps Mr. Ray is
failing to understand it, who knows? I'll restate it:
1. I said it was annoying to have to check for card changes
frequently.
2. I said I understood why said changes were made, and thought it was
good that they were made. It is my belief that people are capable of
understanding why something is good, and still find it annoying that
it is necessary (taxes, death, Mage Revised).
3. I said I had been out of VTES for a while *because the people I
played with were gone and new players couldn't find any cards*. No
abandonment. I wasn't aware White Wolf was printing new cards, and the
shops I frequented didn't carry them, so there was no way for me to
become aware of it. That's only an explaination of why I was surprised
by all the changes. I don't expect the game to stand still for me.
Now, I'm sorry these views upset or annoy people. I wasn't aware that
complaining about the game is anathema around here. Part of the reason
I mentioned it was to see if it was perceived as a problem by others,
and to see how they dealt with it. A lot of the people I play with
find this problem very annoying as well.
Maybe it would have been better to have said "my play group is
composed mostly of people that have come back to the game, after I
found out it was being printed again, and made great effort to find
people that wanted to play. They all find it annoying that some of
their cards work differently than they remember, what is the best way
to handle this without discouraging people and making them less
interested in playing again?"
But I didn't say that. I made an off-the-cuff comment while looking
for advice on a deck idea. And it got a little out of hand.
JSpektr
"Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote in message news:<ae7evt$4hep1$1...@ID-123937.news.dfncis.de>...
> "jspektr" <jsp...@sprynet.com> wrote in message
> news:196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com...> > Under that scenario, it'd be nice if VTES had friendly custumer support, not> > "shut up and deal with it."
>
> Hardly the case. If you address a question to LSJ, he will always take the
> time to look it over, and respond. As is, LSJ responds to more questions
> buried in posts than I find reasonable...I'd certainly miss a lot of them.
> If I were the netrep, I wouldn't have responded to your post in the first
> place, because it looked to be more complaining than an actual question about
> V:tES.
That's exactly the point. I wasn't asking a question. I was
complaining, I totally admit it. It wasn't addressed to him, it was
just venting when I was surprised about a change to a card I'd been
using. Maybe other people interpretted it differently, but his answer
seemed condenscending to me (please note that I said previously that I
understood it probably wasn't meant that way). My first thought was "a
lot of people I know would be really pissed off if they got that
response." So I thought I'd point it out.
When I mentioned I thought it was badly phrased within the context of
the post, the response I got was essentially "I don't care, it's not
my problem." Again, that sounds condenscending. Maybe not to people
that are used to it, but how would someone new, just reading the
newsgroup for the first time interpret it?
If that view bugs you, then I guess I should take the same stance as
LSJ. No offense was intended, and "if there's offense in that, feel
free to take it with you."
JSpektr
In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>,
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<nggdguo51ovvqcfcu...@4ax.com>...>> You're totally missing it, dude. You're complaining about errata,
>> because you perceive that the errata wasn't necessary. It was. You can
>> yammer on about "not to you" all you want, but it won't change the fact
>> of the errata having been necessary in the first place, which leads to
>> new printings of cards, which leads to you having to check ELDB or the
>> webpage more than you'd like.>
>I've snipped all the irrelevant posturing. While I like a flame war as
While adding your own posturing in throughout your entire response,
including an amusingly sarcastic honorific and continuing to hide your
own real name under a blur of letters.
>Perhaps I'm not communicating my point well, perhaps Mr. Ray is
>failing to understand it, who knows? I'll restate it:
Perhaps you aren't comprehending the thrust of my responses.
I rarely address issues where people would like me to, much like a
general rarely makes a frontal attack against a well-fortified position.
Often the assumptions underlying those issues are ill-founded or
inaccurate, and correcting those assumptions would then lead the person
to draw the correct conclusions on their own... removing the need for
any silly "acceptance" of the poorly derived issues.
>2. I said I understood why said changes were made, and thought it was
>good that they were made. It is my belief that people are capable of
>understanding why something is good, and still find it annoying that
>it is necessary (taxes, death, Mage Revised).
Here's the problem. I'll break it down for you.
I don't consider death good. I don't consider taxes good. I don't know
a damn thing about Mage Revised.
I consider taxes better than the alternative. There isn't an
alternative for death. My alternative for Mage Revised is V:TES, which
I make use of often.
I don't complain about taxes, because I realize that they're necessary,
and the alternatives are worse. I don't complain about death, because
it's mandatory and can't be changed. And Mage Revised isn't worth
complaining about.
The purpose of a complaint is either to attempt to provoke a change, or
to listen to the sound of your own voice. I'm giving you the benefit of
the doubt, and assuming that you were attempting to provoke a change.
Hence, I attempt to head off the complaints (I find all random
complaints annoying) by pointing out that there really is no reason to
complain; the alternative is much worse, and explaining why.
It is MY belief that people are perfectly capable of understanding that
something is good, and complaining about it anyway. This reveals an
awful lot about those people, I find.
>Now, I'm sorry these views upset or annoy people. I wasn't aware that
>complaining about the game is anathema around here. Part of the reason
>I mentioned it was to see if it was perceived as a problem by others,
>and to see how they dealt with it. A lot of the people I play with
>find this problem very annoying as well.
I would attempt to offer them the same range of solutions and/or
explanations. There are resources available. It's not like you're just
shit out of luck when building decks and have to guess at random.
>Maybe it would have been better to have said "my play group is
>composed mostly of people that have come back to the game, after I
>found out it was being printed again, and made great effort to find
>people that wanted to play. They all find it annoying that some of
>their cards work differently than they remember, what is the best way
>to handle this without discouraging people and making them less
>interested in playing again?"
Yes, this is a much better option, because it's not a complaint. I'm
surprised that an experienced marketroid such as yourself didn't realize
the importance of precision in one's printed words. Well... not really.
>But I didn't say that. I made an off-the-cuff comment while looking
>for advice on a deck idea. And it got a little out of hand.
Education accomplished.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<snofgugr95fveut2t...@4ax.com>...
> In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>,
> jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
What an amazingly self-agrandizing post. I was feeling a bit bad about
egging you on, thank you for erasing my doubts.
JSpektr, real name reserved for those I care to give it to
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ac1cguo4klf90ualf...@4ax.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I took a look at the back of the Final Nights rulebook, and there it
was... just what I was looking for. AND I took a little while to
read through the rulebook again. It has a lot of useful information
that I had forgotten about (I'm thinking that I just skimmed through
it originally). The print is a bit small and it's kind of a strain on
my eyes after a while, but it's pretty well written and very useful
(IMHO). I think this is what I'll recommend to new players and people
coming back to the game unless someone has other suggestions (anyone?)
or until something else is printed (Camarilla Edition?)
Thanks,
Howard
In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>,
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>What an amazingly self-agrandizing post. I was feeling a bit bad about
>egging you on, thank you for erasing my doubts.
Standard Internet Tactic #12 When Having Lost An Argument: detected
"If you're screwed, claim you were just trying to mess with the person."
pwn3ed! GG $$ EZ
>JSpektr, real name reserved for those I care to give it to
What, you think someone's going to steal your credit card number?
Please. L33t h4x0rs have better things to do with their time. I worry
more about my email address on USENET than I ever would my real name.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Xian wrote
>
> HD wrote> >
> > I guess it would be too difficult (and expensive) to keep a hard copy
> > of the rules updated every few months. I'm looking for something that
> > I can hand to a new player so they can thumb through it to get a
> > general understanding of the game in a few minutes (large text,
> > pictures, graphics... very user friendly). But in the meantime, I'll
> > just have to stick with those little Final Nights rule books.
>
> No pictures, but on the WW website, there's a (huge) photoshop file that is an
> excellent playmat (about the size of a placemat for your dinner table), and has
> pretty much all of the general stuff that one would need to know. It has an
> uncontrolled region, with a detailed explanation of transfers (and starting
> transfers), has the turn sequence, lots of others good stuff on it.
A player who is from another town was in Houston on a business trip
recently and he gave me a playmat (we got together for a few
one-on-one games). It's a great tool for teaching new players or as a
reminder of the basic flow of the game (discard after transfer, master
after untap, etc - I occassionally mess that stuff up... especially
when I'm tired or after several games).
One could
> take it to a professional printer and have a number of them run off and
> laminated. I think that Jeff mentioned that it was about $50 for 25 or 30 of
> them, and the largest single charge was due to the necessity of one of the
> employees opening the file.
Good idea. I'll ask if any of the other players around here want one.
A new game store opened in Houston called "Alpha Centauri" (I think
that's spelled right?) and the owners used to play Jyhad. So, we've
recently met several people that used to play the game and are
interested in getting back into it now that White Wolf has taken over
and is printing the cards again. Making some copies of the playmat
and laminating them could be a really useful tool for building up a
larger playgroup.
> Anyway, it's something like a 30 Mb file, so that might be a little tough on
> your computer, I dunno, but if you (or someone you know) has a fast net
> connection, you could download it, and at least take a look to see if it's
> something like what you're looking for.
>
> Oh, and ELDB is about...10 Mb. Might take a while on 56K, but again, if you
> have a good net connection, it's definitely worth it to be able to do
> Monger-stuff offline.
>
> Xian
I haven't downloaded the ELDB file yet. But thanks for telling me
about it. I will probably get around to it eventually.
Cheers,
Howard
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<tmtigu867nusrnurj...@4ax.com>...
> In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>,
> jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>
> >What an amazingly self-agrandizing post. I was feeling a bit bad about
> >egging you on, thank you for erasing my doubts.
>
> Standard Internet Tactic #12 When Having Lost An Argument: detected
>
> "If you're screwed, claim you were just trying to mess with the person."
Ah, I suspected that's what you were doing, what will all that stuff
about "I rarely address issues where people would like me to." Sounded
a lot like you were trying to claim having no clue was really a
brilliant strategem. Once again, suspicions confirmed.
> >JSpektr, real name reserved for those I care to give it to
>
> What, you think someone's going to steal your credit card number?
Nope. Any real hacker could just trace the post back in innumerable
ways and do that regardless of the name used. But I may see you and
other people that frequent this board at a convention or a tournament
some day. It's much easier to deal with such things if I don't have to
worry about some self-important poser like yourself getting all huffy
in person because of some ridiculous flame-war we had on the internet.
Instead I keep the internet and real life stuff separate.
And I've used the name JSpektr since I've been on Usenet, back in
1992. It's my e-mail address, and Spektr was a nick-name I got in
college from a Russian professor. The J is my first initial. Back in
the day, everyone went by a handle instead of their real name, and
I've just stuck with it. I'm sorry that young'uns like yourself can't
handle that, but it's not really my problem, is it?
JSpektr
> ways and do that regardless of the name used. But I may see you and
> other people that frequent this board at a convention or a tournament
> some day. It's much easier to deal with such things if I don't have to
> worry about some self-important poser like yourself getting all huffy
> in person because of some ridiculous flame-war we had on the internet.
> Instead I keep the internet and real life stuff separate.
To be fair to Derek, there were a few times where Derek and I went at
it on the NG. Nothing much got resolved (from my point of view) and
there were several times where I thought he was a total ass (which he'd
prolly admit to himself). But when I met him in person, he was totally
cool.
YMMV, of course.
Sorrow
---
"I'll be watching the news. If anything is vandalized or explodes
or catches on fire, 'X' is going to equal me kicking your ass!"
- Red Forman
hdma...@hotmail.com (HD) wrote in message news:<c0922a66.02061...@posting.google.com>...
> I took a look at the back of the Final Nights rulebook, and there it
> was... just what I was looking for. AND I took a little while to
> read through the rulebook again. It has a lot of useful information
> that I had forgotten about (I'm thinking that I just skimmed through
> it originally). The print is a bit small and it's kind of a strain on
> my eyes after a while, but it's pretty well written and very useful
> (IMHO). I think this is what I'll recommend to new players and people
> coming back to the game unless someone has other suggestions (anyone?)
> or until something else is printed (Camarilla Edition?)
You could always scan or copy it and blow it up. Generally Kinko's
won't bug you about it if you use the self-service machines (legally
you can copy it for your own use, but Kinko's has been sued a few
times when people abused copyrights, and is understandably paranoid
about it).
You could copy the on-line rulebook and re-arrange it to your liking
in Word or a layout program like Quark or In-Design (if you have such
things, they're a tad expensive for casual users). That way you could
make it bigger and print it at whatever size you'd like.
It'd also be nice if White Wolf posted a version of the play matt
without the background textures. Just leave the background white and
the text black. It'd be more readable, and the file would probably end
up smaller than one meg, making it possible for people with 56k modems
to download it in a reasonable amount of time (I've got broadband, I
downloaded it, I'll see if I can take the PDF apart and remove the
background jpegs, just to see what size it would be without them).
JSpektr
In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>,
jsp...@sprynet.com (jspektr) mumbled something about:
>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<tmtigu867nusrnurj...@4ax.com>...>> In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>,>> Standard Internet Tactic #12 When Having Lost An Argument: detected
>>
>> "If you're screwed, claim you were just trying to mess with the person.">
>Ah, I suspected that's what you were doing, what will all that stuff
>about "I rarely address issues where people would like me to." Sounded
You suspected wrong, then. I just don't follow daisy trails. Everyone
always wants you to answer a whole line of their own leading questions
to come to their predefined conclusion. That's not real thinking at
all, as you've found out in the process of your recent education.
>> What, you think someone's going to steal your credit card number?>
>Nope. Any real hacker could just trace the post back in innumerable
>ways and do that regardless of the name used. But I may see you and
Hardly. USENET posts are very easy to forge; real hackers wouldn't even
bother trying. Again, they have better things to do.
>other people that frequent this board at a convention or a tournament
>some day. It's much easier to deal with such things if I don't have to
>worry about some self-important poser like yourself getting all huffy
>in person because of some ridiculous flame-war we had on the internet.
>Instead I keep the internet and real life stuff separate.
BAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!
Now THIS made me laugh. I recommend you search for my old posts on
Google, where you may find that I've been saying exactly this, on this
newsgroup, since 1998, when I first started posting to this group.
In person, I probably wouldn't even remember we'd argued at all. It's
the Internet, see. It's not real. I think I've argued with damn near
every regular here, and a few of them twice or three times. I KNOW Noal
and I have gotten into it many times, and if I ever get up there to meet
him, I'm sure we'll get smashed and have a grand old time together.
How does that size 12 taste?
>And I've used the name JSpektr since I've been on Usenet, back in
>1992. It's my e-mail address, and Spektr was a nick-name I got in
Congratulations. Do you want to know how long "lorimer" has been my
email address, in some form or other? (hint: predates 1992)
The version @yahoo.com is there as a spam trap, as clever spammers
(almost wrote "good" spammers, but there is no such thing) remove all
the "NOSPAM", etc. insertions that people pepper their addresses with.
It's a real mail address, but I don't check it very often, and I filter
it heavily.
>college from a Russian professor. The J is my first initial. Back in
>the day, everyone went by a handle instead of their real name, and
Back in the day? I doubt you ever saw the REAL day, myself... but in
the interest of avoiding the classic, STUPID "ive been using the
internet for longer than u!!!" flamewar, I'm just going to point out
that I modified my first 300 bps modem with resistors from Radio Shack
to perform at 450 bps. Pick those shoelaces out from between your
teeth, you look stupid.
>I've just stuck with it. I'm sorry that young'uns like yourself can't
>handle that, but it's not really my problem, is it?
*snort* You, like many other marketroids out there, have opened your
mouth long before you realized what you were getting into. You made a
number of cocky, incorrect assumptions, all of which were wrong. You
continued to make those assumptions long after you were shown up, and
you just got shown up again. And now you're calling me a young'un when
I'm probably older than you. =) This is pretty damn funny, from my
point of view, and I'm glad you posted this.
You can continue this if you want, but I notice that you haven't
included any of the original issues. If you decide to get back to those
issues, let me know; if you want to see if you can get your other size
12 into your choppers, that's fine too.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <OfsO8.830$Ie2.1...@newshog.newsread.com>,
"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about:
>To be fair to Derek, there were a few times where Derek and I went at
>it on the NG. Nothing much got resolved (from my point of view) and
>there were several times where I thought he was a total ass (which he'd
>prolly admit to himself). But when I met him in person, he was totally
If anyone reads some of my posts and doesn't think "what a fucking
asshole this guy is", then I'm doing something wrong.
Oh, the check is in the mail, btw.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Derek Ray wrote:
> If anyone reads some of my posts and doesn't think "what a fucking
> asshole this guy is", then I'm doing something wrong.
Pah. I think you are hysterical :-)
-Peter
In message <B9304F35.41B6%PD...@bigplanet.com>,
Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> mumbled something about:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Hysterical doesn't preclude asshole. =)
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<OfsO8.830$Ie2.1...@newshog.newsread.com>...
> To be fair to Derek, there were a few times where Derek and I went at
> it on the NG. Nothing much got resolved (from my point of view) and
> there were several times where I thought he was a total ass (which he'd
> prolly admit to himself). But when I met him in person, he was totally
> cool.
> YMMV, of course.
That's part of the other reason I keep my real name separate. I like
to think I'm a pretty swell guy in person, I don't need people I meet
in real life being prejudiced by reading some rant on-line.
I'm sure Derek's an okay guy off-line. Part of Usenet is that you can
vent, rant, and flame with little consequence, because you're probably
never going to meet anyone inolved. It's kind of fun, really. I
certainly don't harbor any real ill-will towards him, this is all part
of the Usenet game.
But now that I'm getting back into VTES, it occured to me that I may
actually meet some of you. I was almost going to go to Origins to play
in the tournament there (decided to re-fence the back yard instead,
the dog learned she can jump over the existing one). That would have
meant possibly talking to some of the people on the newsgroup
in-person, and that makes a big flamewar much less fun.
JSpektr
In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>, jspektr
<jsp...@sprynet.com> writes:
>That's part of the other reason I keep my real name separate. I like
>to think I'm a pretty swell guy in person, I don't need people I meet
>in real life being prejudiced by reading some rant on-line.
So what you're saying is that you want to be able to act however you
want on-line and never suffer any of the repercussions of your actions?
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<tx2rReLy...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>...
> In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>, jspektr
> <jsp...@sprynet.com> writes:
> >That's part of the other reason I keep my real name separate. I like
> >to think I'm a pretty swell guy in person, I don't need people I meet
> >in real life being prejudiced by reading some rant on-line.
>
> So what you're saying is that you want to be able to act however you
> want on-line and never suffer any of the repercussions of your actions?
In real life, if I have an arguement with someone, there's a whole
level of body language and intent that is lost on the internet. The
same discussion held in person might lead to no hard feelings, while
it leads to someone holding a grudge against me for who knows how long
on the internet.
And let's be frank, while I might meet some of you in real life some
day, it's not real likely. I mostly read this group to get hints on
strategy, and find out what new permutations or re-writes of the rules
I'm going to be expected to know if I make it to a tournament. So
what's my motivation to give out my real name, or worry about the
consequences?
I am, of course, aware that I argued that LSJ should have greater
tact. He's selling something, I'm not. He has a vested interest in
keeping the fan base happy, while I don't. I wish none of you
ill-will, but until the day I meet you, your emmotions have no effect
on my day to day life, while your emmotions have a direct effect on
LSJ's life and position as representative of VTES.
Besides, like I said before, I've used the name "JSpektr" on Usenet
for 10 years, since before there was a Jyhad game or a newsgroup to
discuss it. It's my e-mail address name, my Instant Messenger name,
and the name I use on all groups and message boards. If that really
bugs you, I'll e-mail my real name to you so you can sleep securely at
night, safe in the knowledge I'm someone you've never heard of and
will never meet.
JSpektr - why is this an issue?
You're a funny guy. Didn't show me up once, but you did make a good
case for being exactly what you claim.
Not really interested. Maybe back in the day. We can go fire up the
tape drives on the TI in the closet and have a go at it some time.
JSpektr
In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>, jspektr
<jsp...@sprynet.com> writes:
>You're a funny guy.
Who's a funny guy?
Please follow accepted standards of posting by quoting a snipped section
of the post to which you are responding, including an attribution line.
This allows a 'conversation' to flow naturally.
If you are not referring to anything in a previous post in the thread,
start a new one.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <196f2577.02061...@posting.google.com>, jspektr
<jsp...@sprynet.com> writes:
>JSpektr - why is this an issue?
Because 13 year old l33t h4xx0r d00ds find it necessary to hide behind
pointless names. Real people can actually take responsibility for their
words and actions.
[ quoted text not captured ]