[LSJ] Determine Range

6.4.2. Determine Range ... Note: Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a maneuver at the start of this phase. Shadow Step [obt] Maneuver. [OBT] Only usable at the beginning of a round. This vampire burns 2 blood to set the range for this round. If he or she does so, skip the Establish Range step for this round. Gang Tactics Only usable as an action is announced. If the action is blocked, the combat is at close range. Other effects cannot change this; skip the Determine Range step during that combat. so, based on this rules book quote and the texts of the above cards, if i have set range with something like the above, then there is no opportunity to play 'before range is determined' combat cards, as there is no 'determine range' step to play them in? (or in the case of cards that set range before range is determined, then there is no opportunity to play other before range cards, as the rest of the phase is skipped)? [ELDB maintainer note: online text for Storm Sewers is different to ELDB text] salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

>so, based on this rules book quote and the texts of the above cards, >if i have set range with something like the above, then there is no >opportunity to play 'before range is determined' combat cards, as >there is no 'determine range' step to play them in? >(or in the case of cards that set range before range is determined, >then there is no opportunity to play other before range cards, as the >rest of the phase is skipped)? Even if range is set (and thus there will be no chance to play manuevers), both players still have the opportunity to play cards that are played before range is determined. (Similarly, you could play pre-strike cards like Immortal Grapple if both minions have no strike). The pre-range phase is called pre-range to give an indication of when it takes place. It does not rely on the existence or state of the manuever phase. Halcyan 2

On 09 Jul 2003 06:00:26 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) scrawled: >>so, based on this rules book quote and the texts of the above cards, >>if i have set range with something like the above, then there is no >>opportunity to play 'before range is determined' combat cards, as >>there is no 'determine range' step to play them in? >>(or in the case of cards that set range before range is determined, >>then there is no opportunity to play other before range cards, as the >>rest of the phase is skipped)? > > >Even if range is set (and thus there will be no chance to play manuevers), both >players still have the opportunity to play cards that are played before range >is determined. i don't see this from the rules. the cards that set range actually specify that you _skip_ the determine range step. the rulebook states that the 'before range' cards are played _during_ the determine range step. if you skip the phase, how can you play cards during it? >(Similarly, you could play pre-strike cards like Immortal Grapple if both >minions have no strike). not similarly. the rulebook doesn't imply that 'before strikes' cards are played during the 'choose strike' phase, nor do effects that negate the choosing of stikes say to skip the choose strike phase. >The pre-range phase is called pre-range to give an indication of when it takes >place. It does not rely on the existence or state of the manuever phase. there is no 'pre-range' phase. there is only a 'determine range' phase, during which you play 'before range is chosen' cards before playing maneuvers. [ quoted text not captured ]

>i don't see this from the rules. >the cards that set range actually specify that you _skip_ the >determine range step. >the rulebook states that the 'before range' cards are played _during_ >the determine range step. >if you skip the phase, how can you play cards during it? > See: From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) Subject: Re: "Before Range" View: Complete Thread (2 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Date: 2001-04-09 04:02:04 PST Halcyan 2 wrote: > > Just a pair of quick questions: > > #1: Just to doublecheck, but "at the beginning of" is treated the same as > "before range" right? Thus Weather Control, Concealed Weapon, and Shotgun > Ritual are played with the same timing as Torn Signpost and Carrion Crows? Yes. > #2: I'm just getting picky on the semantics but: if the range is already > established (via Cailean, Shadow Step, or Storm Sewers), does this mean you > cannot play any cards that are "played before range is chosen/determined?" I > know that that clause is supposed to simply tell you that it's played before > the manuevers segment, but if you take a strict interpretation, it seems that > they'd be unplayable? No. If "Determine range" is to be skipped, then cards played "before range" are then played "before strikes" - that is, at their normal time: 1. enter combat 2. before range 3. determine range - might be skipped if something has already set range 4. before strikes (Immortal Grapple, e.g.) 5. choose strikes 6. resolve strikes etc. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ AND From: LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) Subject: Re: LSJ: question View: Complete Thread (21 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Date: 1999/12/07 Frederick Scott wrote: > kor...@my-deja.com writes: > > LSJ <vte...@wizards.com> wrote: > >> Right. "at the beginning of a round" means the same thing as "before > >> range is determined [in a round]". > >> > >> So you can play Shadow Step after a Drawing Out the Beast has been played. > > > >But, could you play Drawing Out the Beast after playing Shadow Step? I > >could see an argument for either case here. LSJ? > > Sure, why couldn't you? All SS says is that you skip the range step, > range is set, and no one can play maneuvers. It doesn't say, "Skip > *TO*...(some other part of the turn)". So all "beginning-of-a-round"/ > "before-range" cards can still be played. Just, once you get past those > cards, don't bother stopping and having a range step because there isn't > one. And as DotB is not a manuever itself, well, what's the problem? Right. "at the beginning of a round" means the same thing as "before range is determined [in a round]". So you can play Drawing Out the Beast after Shadow Step has been played. -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp Halcyan 2

salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<6rfngvs03r3qfg2vg...@4ax.com>... > On 09 Jul 2003 06:00:26 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) scrawled: > > >>so, based on this rules book quote and the texts of the above cards, > >>if i have set range with something like the above, then there is no > >>opportunity to play 'before range is determined' combat cards, as > >>there is no 'determine range' step to play them in? > >>(or in the case of cards that set range before range is determined, > >>then there is no opportunity to play other before range cards, as the > >>rest of the phase is skipped)? > > > > > >Even if range is set (and thus there will be no chance to play manuevers), both > >players still have the opportunity to play cards that are played before range > >is determined. > > i don't see this from the rules. > the cards that set range actually specify that you _skip_ the > determine range step. yes, you skip the determine range step, where you try to out- or "in"-maneuver each other, meaning no need to maneuver since range is already determined !! > the rulebook states that the 'before range' cards are played _during_ > the determine range step. > if you skip the phase, how can you play cards during it? > Well, you're twisting the wording in the rules to invent some way to make some cards very powerful without thinking about what it is White Wolf has tried to clarify in the rules !! > >(Similarly, you could play pre-strike cards like Immortal Grapple if both > >minions have no strike). > > not similarly. the rulebook doesn't imply that 'before strikes' cards > are played during the 'choose strike' phase, nor do effects that > negate the choosing of stikes say to skip the choose strike phase. > > >The pre-range phase is called pre-range to give an indication of when it takes > >place. It does not rely on the existence or state of the manuever phase. > Exactly !! Many cards can be played during this phase, cards that set range, cards that allow larger handsize, viewing other players hand etc. > there is no 'pre-range' phase. there is only a 'determine range' > phase, during which you play 'before range is chosen' cards before > playing maneuvers. > Well, there might not be a pre-range phase according to rules, but every player with a minimum of reason know that you have a 'window' to play cards that are played before you go to the determine range phase or as I call it the 'maneuver phase'. Among these cards are cards that set range and therefore the 'maneuver phase' might be skipped because of such a card. It doesn't mean that you can veto all other 'before range is determined' cards just by playing a card that sets range !! If you exchange 'before range is determined' with 'before maneuvers are played' or 'before maneuver phase' on all of your cards then you can play as happy as always. And then you don't have to trouble your mind, trying to figure out evil ways to spoil the greatest game of them all. Really, Level with me, it might be that you could the rules the way you insist to do it, but it's just not a logic approach !! And Hey, just flame me too, if you feel the need !! Dj Mik

In message <81800800.0307...@posting.google.com>, DJ.Mik <djmi...@hotmail.com> writes: >Really, Level with me, it might be that you could the rules the way >you insist to do it, but it's just not a logic approach !! If you can approach the rules in a given fashion, what's illogical? This is why we have rulings and clarifications - for when the rules can be approached in many ways. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

salem wrote: > 6.4.2. Determine Range > ... > Note: Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be > played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a > maneuver at the start of this phase. [...] > so, based on this rules book quote and the texts of the above cards, > if i have set range with something like the above, then there is no > opportunity to play 'before range is determined' combat cards, as > there is no 'determine range' step to play them in? No. Effects that are played before the determine range step are not played in the determine range step, so do not see their window of opportunity removed when the determine range step is skipped. Effects that are played "before range is determined" are played before the 'determine range' step, per the rules text you quote. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> the cards that set range actually specify that you _skip_ the > determine range step. > the rulebook states that the 'before range' cards are played _during_ > the determine range step. > if you skip the phase, how can you play cards during it? so... you can still play the card that causes the current phase to disappear? I don't think so. according to this interpretation it would not be possible to play a terror frenzy after cailean decides that the range is long for his flamethrower... the _only_ effect of setting range is that no one can attempt to change that range, whether he is using other 'set range' effects or maneuvers. it does not affect which cards people can play. few card texts and rules to support my case: rules 6.4.2.: "Determine Range. Use maneuvers to set the range to close or long." and "As usual, the acting minion always gets first opportunity to use a card or effect before the opposing minion at every stage of combat." and "Note: Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a maneuver at the start of this phase." according to this, the _only_ thing that is done during the DR step is to use maneuvers... what is not so clear in the rules is whether the acting player can play a maneuver card before the blocking player can play any cards (I believe that this is not the case and the acting player has to give the blocking player an opportunity to play cards before he starts playing maneuvers. LSJ?). about setting range and playing cards. if the determine range step is skipped, than cards that would usually be played before range is chosen are played before strikes are chosen, see this post from LSJ: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22set+range%22+author:lsj&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=3AD191CC.BE7C2DC5%40white-wolf.com&rnum=2 High Ground: "Maneuver, only usable to go to long range. If this minion has flight and the opposing minion does not, play before range is determined to set the range for the round to long. A minion can play only 1 High Ground each round." does not mention skipping the determine range phase. Shadow Step: "Maneuver, only usable to go to long range. If this minion has flight and the opposing minion does not, play before range is determined to set the range for the round to long. A minion can play only 1 High Ground each round." skips the determine range step, so if is were being played in that step it would have no effect because the step doesn't exist anymore. Sniper Rifle: "Weapon, Gun. 2R damage each strike. Only usable at long range. If the bearer blocks an action, he or she may set the range for the first round of combat to long; if he or she does so, skip the Determine Range step on the first round, and the bearer must strike with this weapon on the first round." skips the determine range step, so if is were being played in that step it would have no effect because the step doesn't exist anymore. Cailean: "(2) Sabbat Archbishop of Detroit: Each round of combat, before range is determined, Cailean can set the range for that round. If he does so, skip the Determine Range step for that round." skips the determine range step, so if is were being played in that step it would have no effect because the step doesn't exist anymore.

On 9 Jul 2003 06:07:16 -0700, de...@hell.is (hawk_the_demon) scrawled: >> the cards that set range actually specify that you _skip_ the >> determine range step. >> the rulebook states that the 'before range' cards are played _during_ >> the determine range step. >> if you skip the phase, how can you play cards during it? > >so... you can still play the card that causes the current phase to >disappear? >I don't think so. well, i was assuming it would cause the current phase to end. skip the rest of the phase. that sort of thing. >according to this interpretation it would not be possible to play a >terror frenzy after cailean decides that the range is long for his >flamethrower... yup. that's the thrust of what i was getting at. >the _only_ effect of setting range is that no one can attempt to >change that range, whether he is using other 'set range' effects or >maneuvers. it does not affect which cards people can play. well, that's how it does work. i was trying to see how that status quo interpretation of how things work was supported by the rules. >few card texts and rules to support my case: > >rules 6.4.2.: >"Determine Range. Use maneuvers to set the range to close or long." > >and > >"As usual, the acting minion always gets first opportunity to use a >card or effect before the opposing minion at every stage of combat." > >and > >"Note: Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be >played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a >maneuver at the start of this phase." > >according to this, the _only_ thing that is done during the DR step is >to use maneuvers... what is not so clear in the rules is whether the >acting player can play a maneuver card before the blocking player can >play any cards (I believe that this is not the case and the acting >player has to give the blocking player an opportunity to play cards >before he starts playing maneuvers. LSJ?). from the rules you cite, i beleive it is apparent that the acting minion may not 'jump in' and play a maneuver before the opposing minion can play 'before range' cards. >about setting range and playing cards. if the determine range step is >skipped, than cards that would usually be played before range is >chosen are played before strikes are chosen, see this post from LSJ: >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22set+range%22+author:lsj&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=3AD191CC.BE7C2DC5%40white-wolf.com&rnum=2 > >High Ground: >"Maneuver, only usable to go to long range. If this minion has flight >and the opposing minion does not, play before range is determined to >set the range for the round to long. A minion can play only 1 High >Ground each round." > >does not mention skipping the determine range phase. and thus, would not skip it. i was only proposing that the range setting cards that stated they skip the determine range phase would preclude the opportunit to play further 'before range' cards. >Shadow Step: >"Maneuver, only usable to go to long range. If this minion has flight >and the opposing minion does not, play before range is determined to >set the range for the round to long. A minion can play only 1 High >Ground each round." that looks like high ground again.... >skips the determine range step, so if is were being played in that >step it would have no effect because the step doesn't exist anymore. no, you'd play it in that step and then skip the rest of it. mariel tapping to end combat doesn't have no effect because after you tap her it's not in combat anymore...etc. urgh. yukky double negative, but i hope it's clear. >Sniper Rifle: >"Weapon, Gun. 2R damage each strike. Only usable at long range. If the >bearer blocks an action, he or she may set the range for the first >round of combat to long; if he or she does so, skip the Determine >Range step on the first round, and the bearer must strike with this >weapon on the first round." > >skips the determine range step, so if is were being played in that >step it would have no effect because the step doesn't exist anymore. see above. >Cailean: >"(2) Sabbat Archbishop of Detroit: Each round of combat, before range >is determined, Cailean can set the range for that round. If he does >so, skip the Determine Range step for that round." > >skips the determine range step, so if is were being played in that >step it would have no effect because the step doesn't exist anymore. see above. i know that the official line says there is a before determine range phase, even if the rulebook doesn't mention it. i agree that it should work the way it does. i was just trying to understand how we got to the way it works from reading the rules and card texts, that's all. [ quoted text not captured ]

hawk_the_demon wrote: > "As usual, the acting minion always gets first opportunity to use a > card or effect before the opposing minion at every stage of combat." > > and > > "Note: Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be > played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a > maneuver at the start of this phase." > > according to this, the _only_ thing that is done during the DR step is > to use maneuvers... what is not so clear in the rules is whether the > acting player can play a maneuver card before the blocking player can > play any cards (I believe that this is not the case and the acting > player has to give the blocking player an opportunity to play cards > before he starts playing maneuvers. LSJ?). Correct. The acting player is not permitted to skip steps. Similarly, he cannot play Immortal Grapple before allowing the blocker the opportunity to maneuver. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:01:27 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >salem wrote: >> 6.4.2. Determine Range >> ... >> Note: Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be >> played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a >> maneuver at the start of this phase. > >[...] > >> so, based on this rules book quote and the texts of the above cards, >> if i have set range with something like the above, then there is no >> opportunity to play 'before range is determined' combat cards, as >> there is no 'determine range' step to play them in? > >No. Effects that are played before the determine range step are not >played in the determine range step, so do not see their window of >opportunity removed when the determine range step is skipped. > >Effects that are played "before range is determined" are played before >the 'determine range' step, per the rules text you quote. hmmm....if we take the rules quote from above and insert a comma after the word maneuver, we get: Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a maneuver, at the start of this phase. which i think is how i was reading it. that is, you play 'before range' effects at the start of this phase (determine range), before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a maneuver. i'm not sure if the way i read it is a correct alternate english interpretation of the way the rule is actually written, but it was the root of my analysis. also, i don't like the way 'end of round' effects have to happen within the press step (if you get there) at the end, because after the press step it's the next round (or combat is over), there is no 'end of round' phase, but you can have a 'before the determine range' step, even though once combat is started you have to be within the determine range step, because that is the first phase of combat. seems a little inconsistent, is all. [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > hmmm....if we take the rules quote from above and insert a comma after > the word maneuver, we get: > > Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be > played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a > maneuver, at the start of this phase. > > which i think is how i was reading it. That'd do it, yeah. > also, i don't like the way 'end of round' effects have to happen > within the press step (if you get there) at the end, because after the > press step it's the next round (or combat is over), there is no 'end > of round' phase, but you can have a 'before the determine range' step, > even though once combat is started you have to be within the determine > range step, because that is the first phase of combat. > > seems a little inconsistent, is all. There is an "end of round" phase after the press step, consistent with the way the "before range" phase is before the "determine range" step. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EC8F352.4010706%40white-wolf.com [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 09:57:53 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >salem wrote: >> hmmm....if we take the rules quote from above and insert a comma after >> the word maneuver, we get: >> >> Effects that are played "before range is determined" must be >> played before the acting minion decides whether or not to play a >> maneuver, at the start of this phase. >> >> which i think is how i was reading it. > >That'd do it, yeah. > >> also, i don't like the way 'end of round' effects have to happen >> within the press step (if you get there) at the end, because after the >> press step it's the next round (or combat is over), there is no 'end >> of round' phase, but you can have a 'before the determine range' step, >> even though once combat is started you have to be within the determine >> range step, because that is the first phase of combat. >> >> seems a little inconsistent, is all. > >There is an "end of round" phase after the press step, consistent with >the way the "before range" phase is before the "determine range" step. > >http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EC8F352.4010706%40white-wolf.com righto then. i guess i'll go find some other line to misread in the rulebook... :) [ quoted text not captured ]

> i guess i'll go find some other line to misread in the rulebook... :) by all means ;-)

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<eUlS5OD46$C$Ew...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <81800800.0307...@posting.google.com>, DJ.Mik > <djmi...@hotmail.com> writes: > >Really, Level with me, it might be that you could the rules the way > >you insist to do it, but it's just not a logic approach !! > > If you can approach the rules in a given fashion, what's illogical? > > This is why we have rulings and clarifications - for when the rules can > be approached in many ways. What I mean is that it (might be only me who see it that way) is obvious that there was a certain intention with the before range is set indication. It simply means that all cards with this wording on them have to be played at the beginning of a round !! You're right it's possible to make the you-cannot-play-more-'prerange'-cards-when-range-is-set interpretation, but that is only because the wording is less accurate than could be wished for. The above comment was only a reaction to the way some people try to find holes in the current ruling, so they can take advantage of it. We've had some of these discussions in our playgroup and I just don't like that the sentence: "but, it doesn't say so on the card !" is used to verify the weirdest arguments. The range-issue might be a cornercase where it would be reasonable for some to argue that setting range bans all other prerange cards, but I've experienced discussions/questions in playgroup and here on this e-group that I consider far out because they go against plain common sense. eg. Rötschreck This card has always been a problem because the wording on it is confusing with all the 'this minion and this vampire etc. stuff'. In the beginning of my Jyhad/Vtes days I was one of the guys playing with the reverse effect of the card's current ruling. So if you tried to flame me w. a flamethrower I could send you to torpor with a rötschreck and not the opposite !! And yes, I know the card used to be ruled that way as well !! At that time I hadn't really studied the cardtext closely and I didn't know the effect rötschreck from Vampire:the Masquerade so how was I to know ?? Nowadays I could still argue that wording is so inaccurate that I could interpret the card either way, but this is where my logic intervenes !! If I was the vampire being threatened with something that could kill me right away, would it be reason that by some twist of fate it's the one threatening me who is suddenly struck by lightning unable to do anything ? No, not really !! In the same way I could ask: If one of two minions in combat forces the range to long just because he's able to fly away and sit on the top of some building and the other is not able to follow him, would it be reasonable to argue that this would prevent the other from ripping a signpost apart that he intended to strike the opposing minion with ? Well, I'd say no !! And I know that now I'm trying to compare two things that are not the same, but that's the way I have to see things to enjoy playing Vtes, and that's why I oppose to all those rules discussions where the issue is not whether something would appear to be logical following everyday common sense, but whether the cardtext can be interpretated in a certain way (and if this would nullify gravity, make tuesday come before monday etc. it really doesn't matter ! we're talking card text !!) Might as well play cards with nothing but numbers on them then !! On the other hand I'm glad that such an amount of time is spent clarifying and ruling cardtext, so that we all play by the same rules. And I must say that I really think that the Guys at WW do a great job at keeping the cardgame at level with the RPG and still maintain this balance that is so hard to achieve !! DJ MIK

In message <81800800.03071...@posting.google.com>, DJ.Mik <djmi...@hotmail.com> writes: >What I mean is that it (might be only me who see it that way) is >obvious that there was a certain intention with the before range is >set indication. There may be an intention. If the rules and card text don't support that intention, that doesn't make such an interpretation illogical. [ quoted text not captured ]