rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Blocking and Reaction Timing

6 messages from 4 participants · 17 December 2006 – 19 December 2006
original thread on Google Groups

Ben Swainbank

Recently, the rulings on timing for additional strike declaration and damage prevention were reversed. Playing those kinds of cards was brought into line with the general priority-passing scheme used in most aspects of the game. The controversy around the blocking and deflection timing has me thinking it might be valuable to apply the same principles, and remedy, to the rules surrounding playing reaction cards and blocking. The rules, as outlines in 6.2.2 don't restrict what kinds of reaction cards can be played except to say intercept can only be played when it is needed. This implies other kinds of reactions can be played, even during a block attempt. I would suggest a successful block occurs when: 1. A block attempt has been announced. 2. Intercept of the blocking minion is >= stealth of the acting minion 3. Priority, and the option play effects, has passed around as per 1.6.1.5. and everyone has passed Is that just a restatement of the current rules? Would adopting that definition bring blocking and reacting more into line with other aspects of the game? Would it eliminate the need for some of the current reaction rulings? An acting player saying "you block" would translate to "I pass". The reacting player would still get the opportunity to pay effects (handing priority back the actor) - wake a different minion, play deflection, etc... They couldn't announce a different block attempt. Traffic on the other thread suggests many players don't feel the ruling on deflection timing is well-grounded in the rules. There does not seem to be a similar objection to the ruling that you can't play Deflection after you announce a block attempt (until it fails). But the two rulings do seem equally well (or un) justified. Should we do away with both? -Ben Swainbank

Kushiel

Ben Swainbank wrote: > An acting player saying "you block" would translate to "I > pass". The reacting player would still get the opportunity to pay > effects (handing priority back the actor) - wake a different minion, > play deflection, etc... They couldn't announce a different block > attempt. I'm pretty sure they can only play reaction cards that won't do anything to mess with the current block attempt. You can Wake a second minion, because that doesn't affect the current block attempt. Ditto reducing a bleed. Bouncing a bleed DOES affect the current block attempt, though, which is why I think it's forbidden. > Traffic on the other thread suggests many players don't feel the > ruling on deflection timing is well-grounded in the rules. There does > not seem to be a similar objection to the ruling that you can't play > Deflection after you announce a block attempt (until it fails). I think that's just because it hasn't really come up at all in that other thread. Could be that it did and I missed it, though. > But the > two rulings do seem equally well (or un) justified. They don't to me. > Should we do away with both? Nope. Deflecting during a successful block is an counterintuitive to me as is cancelling a Deflection equalling the deflectors stating that they don't block (if they never stated it). John Eno

LSJ

Kushiel wrote: > Ben Swainbank wrote: >> An acting player saying "you block" would translate to "I >> pass". The reacting player would still get the opportunity to pay >> effects (handing priority back the actor) - wake a different minion, >> play deflection, etc... They couldn't announce a different block >> attempt. > > I'm pretty sure they can only play reaction cards that won't do > anything to mess with the current block attempt. You can Wake a second > minion, because that doesn't affect the current block attempt. Ditto > reducing a bleed. Bouncing a bleed DOES affect the current block > attempt, though, which is why I think it's forbidden. > >> Traffic on the other thread suggests many players don't feel the >> ruling on deflection timing is well-grounded in the rules. There does >> not seem to be a similar objection to the ruling that you can't play >> Deflection after you announce a block attempt (until it fails). > > I think that's just because it hasn't really come up at all in that > other thread. Could be that it did and I missed it, though. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/1a0d5e4ae2f6c261 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/43e6daa61184065e http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/0c4cd550dc2f8576 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/aa0821d9507fa7c5 >> But the >> two rulings do seem equally well (or un) justified. > > They don't to me. Yet they are. They both find themselves without supporting text in either cards or the rulebook. >> Should we do away with both? > > Nope. Deflecting during a successful block is an counterintuitive to me > as is cancelling a Deflection equalling the deflectors stating that > they don't block (if they never stated it). Well, the prohibition on pitching a pool to draw out a modifier seems counterintuitive to some, so that isn't really a good criterion to use in isolation.

Ben Swainbank

LSJ wrote: > Kushiel wrote: > > Ben Swainbank wrote: > > > >> Traffic on the other thread suggests many players don't feel the > >> ruling on deflection timing is well-grounded in the rules. There does > >> not seem to be a similar objection to the ruling that you can't play > >> Deflection after you announce a block attempt (until it fails). > > >> But the > >> two rulings do seem equally well (or un) justified. > > > > They don't to me. > > Yet they are. They both find themselves without supporting text in either cards > or the rulebook. > I did a fair bit of groping for answers in my initial post. It's coming together for me now. I am concerned with key aspects of the game where the rules exist in the form of rulings rather than the rule book or card text. I am less concerned about whether players can play deflection before announcing block attempts. I advocate the following (which may be what LSJ is doing (has done) and may be restatements of the existing rules): If there are restrictions about when bleed redirection cards can be played (and players seem to agree that there should be some) then those restrictions should be added as card text. That text could be "not playable during a block attempt or after a successful block" it could be "only usable after blocks are declined". The existing rulings about Deflection timing should be voided (reversed, moot, etc...). A reaction card could be printed that redirected a bleed with different (or no) timing restrictions. After an acting player says "you block" priority passes. A reacting player has the opportunity to play more effects. For example, if a reaction card reduced intercept, it could be played at this time, and potentially result in a non-block (following more priority passing). Presumably, this is not new, but I expect it's sufficiently non-clear that I won't embarrass myself by pointing it out. -Ben Swainbank

Bram Vink

LSJ schreef: [ quoted text not captured ] It seems to me that the ruling "cannot interrupt a block attempt with cards that change the target of the action (ie. can't play deflection while blocking)" is the one currently used by most people. Also, the ruling on deflection et al. only being playable after blocking (ie. playing deflection means you do not block) seems to me, and if I'm not mistaken from the thread, counterintuitive to most people. Given that almost all options, apart from cornercase card cancellation in the case of not waiting to play the deflection in case action modifiers after declaring not to block, are covered by the first ruling, and that the second ruling apparently is new to people, I would suggest sticking to the first ruling (ie. can't play deflection while blocking) if only for the sake of popular vote on intuitive play. Over here we've always played that tossing in pool means you're not blocking, btw. ;) B Why are there no women involved when talking about intuition?

Kushiel

LSJ wrote: > Yet they are. They both find themselves without supporting text in either cards > or the rulebook. Yeah. I need to remember to not make comments in these kinds of threads, because I never know what the hell is being talking about... John Eno