Illusion vs Psyche! & TT

I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers to the following maybe not so clear questions. So just to get things straight: Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the Kindred? If so is does IotK fizzle or is the Illusion simply delayed? If delayed would the Illusion work if the minion that played it was burnt or placed in torpor? It's probably only me but the card text on TT drives my brain into an unsolvable puzzle mode. What does "with no uncanceled press to continue" actually mean? Is this just another way of saying, can not be you used to cycle cards? -Kenneth

Kenneth wrote: > > I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers to the > following maybe not so clear questions. > So just to get things straight: > Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the Kindred? No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat, other combat-starters cannot be used. > If so is does IotK fizzle or is the Illusion simply delayed? Moot. > If delayed would the Illusion work if the minion that played it was > burnt or placed in torpor? Moot. > It's probably only me but the card text on TT drives my brain into an > unsolvable puzzle mode. > What does "with no uncanceled press to continue" actually mean? Is this > just another way of saying, can not be you used to cycle cards? If combat is continuing already, you cannot use TT. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: :: Kenneth wrote: ::: ::: I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers ::: to the following maybe not so clear questions. ::: So just to get things straight: ::: Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the ::: Kindred? :: :: No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat, :: other combat-starters cannot be used. Until we have another change in the incredibly inconsistent rulings, in a bout 3 months, 5 days and 4 hours. ::: It's probably only me but the card text on TT drives my brain ::: into an unsolvable puzzle mode. ::: What does "with no uncanceled press to continue" actually mean? ::: Is this just another way of saying, can not be you used to cycle ::: cards? :: :: If combat is continuing already, you cannot use TT. You can play TT inferior to get a press though.

reyda wrote: > LSJ wrote: > :: No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat, > :: other combat-starters cannot be used. > > Until we have another change in the incredibly inconsistent rulings, in a > bout 3 months, 5 days and 4 hours. Such vitriole. Tsk. I answered the question incorrectly once. Try to keep some perspective. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: :: reyda wrote: ::: LSJ wrote: ::::: No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a ::::: combat, other combat-starters cannot be used. ::: ::: Until we have another change in the incredibly inconsistent ::: rulings, in a bout 3 months, 5 days and 4 hours. :: :: Such vitriole. Tsk. :: I answered the question incorrectly once. :: Try to keep some perspective. mmm... you may be right, i'm getting on my nerves easily those days. Sorry for that =/ perspective, that's right, perspective...

LSJ wrote: :: reyda wrote: ::: LSJ wrote: ::::: No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a ::::: combat, other combat-starters cannot be used. ::: ::: Until we have another change in the incredibly inconsistent ::: rulings, in a bout 3 months, 5 days and 4 hours. :: :: Such vitriole. Tsk. :: I answered the question incorrectly once. :: Try to keep some perspective. mm just to be sure : there is actually no way to avoid an Illusion of the Kindred Combat ?

reyda wrote: > mm just to be sure : there is actually no way to avoid an Illusion of the > Kindred Combat ? Besides Direct Intervention? I don't think so, no. And you can "escape" the combat with Mariel, Lady Thunder or Elysium: The Arboretum or yet another Illusions, of course. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3DE614DB...@white-wolf.com... > Kenneth wrote: > > > > I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers to the > > following maybe not so clear questions. > > So just to get things straight: > > Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the Kindred? > > No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat, other > combat-starters cannot be used. > Umm... what about the ruling that cards that end combat and then do something else can be interrupted when combat ends? If Illusions of the Kindred has already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has caused the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic? In that case, Psyche! could not be played after Rotschreck, because both minions are not ready ("on the way to torpor" = not ready). Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of Mist to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another combat is queued? Can Psyche! be played after a Blissful Agony? The point is that when a card does multiple things, you have specifically said that it's okay to interrupt in the middle of them. Thus they must happen sequentially, and all card play is not atomic. So IotK has not yet queued another combat at the time when it ends combat. Unless you consider the imminent combat (the one which *will* be caused by IotK approximately 40 words in the future) to be "queued", in which case, you have to consider that in the above two cases as well.

>Besides Direct Intervention? I don't think so, no. > >And you can "escape" the combat with Mariel, Lady Thunder or Elysium: The >Arboretum or yet another Illusions, of course. Watenda! Watenda! Halcyan 2

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:<jSrF9.159048$NH2.11050@sccrnsc01>... > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > news:3DE614DB...@white-wolf.com... > > Kenneth wrote: > > > > > > I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers to the > > > following maybe not so clear questions. > > > So just to get things straight: > > > Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the Kindred? > > > > No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat, other > > combat-starters cannot be used. > > > Umm... what about the ruling that cards that end combat and then do something > else can be interrupted when combat ends? If Illusions of the Kindred has > already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has caused > the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic? In that > case, Psyche! could not be played after Rotschreck, because both minions are > not ready ("on the way to torpor" = not ready). AFAIK there is a difference being made for new combat in queue and "other effects" in queue. You cannot start a new combat if there already is one in queue due to another card, but you can start another combat if there already is another "effect" in queue, which is then cancelled (torporizing with Rötschreck) > > Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of Mist > to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another combat > is queued? You cannot play Form of Mist at superior to continue an action that already was successful (and therefore you don't need the stealth for). > > Can Psyche! be played after a Blissful Agony? > No > The point is that when a card does multiple things, you have specifically said > that it's okay to interrupt in the middle of them. Thus they must happen > sequentially, and all card play is not atomic. So IotK has not yet queued > another combat at the time when it ends combat. Unless you consider the > imminent combat (the one which *will* be caused by IotK approximately 40 words > in the future) to be "queued", in which case, you have to consider that in the > above two cases as well. As i said. There is a difference being made for combats in queue and "other effects" in queue.

"Angus, the Unruled" <athosg...@gmx.at> wrote in message news:690c2085.02112...@posting.google.com... > > > > Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of Mist > > to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another combat > > is queued? > > You cannot play Form of Mist at superior to continue an action that > already was successful (and therefore you don't need the stealth for). > A *blocked* Bum's Rush is not yet successful.

In article <jSrF9.159048$NH2.11050@sccrnsc01>, ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu says... > Umm... what about the ruling that cards that end combat and then do something > else can be interrupted when combat ends? If Illusions of the Kindred has > already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has caused > the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic? In that > case, Psyche! could not be played after Rotschreck, because both minions are > not ready ("on the way to torpor" = not ready). Indeed, there seems to be no intuitive distinction between "post ending combat effects" here. Why would a queued combat be any different than Psyche preventing a Rotshrecked vampire from going to torpor? It would seem more consistent/intuitive to have all post-combat effects be prevented by Psyche/TT. > Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of Mist > to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another combat > is queued? I'd say Psyche would be playable, since the Bum's Rush combat isn't actually queued until after the Bum's Rush is successful. -- -Snapcase

Chris Berger wrote: > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > news:3DE614DB...@white-wolf.com... > > Kenneth wrote: > > > > > > I've searched the newsgroup and can't seem to find clear answers to the > > > following maybe not so clear questions. > > > So just to get things straight: > > > Does Psyche! and/or Telepathic Tracking cancel Illusion of the Kindred? > > > > No. They cannot be played. Since IotK has already queued a combat, other > > combat-starters cannot be used. > > > Umm... what about the ruling that cards that end combat and then do something > else can be interrupted when combat ends? It's still in effect. If Psyche! could be played at all, it would interrupt the IotK. But since it cannot be played, it won't. > If Illusions of the Kindred has > already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has caused > the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic? No. It has queued a "go to torpor" event, though. > Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of Mist > to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another combat > is queued? No. No other combat is yet queued. The action would have to be successful again to begin combat. Psyche! can be played before that success. > Can Psyche! be played after a Blissful Agony? No. > The point is that when a card does multiple things, you have specifically said > that it's okay to interrupt in the middle of them. And that if a combat is queued, it is not OK to try to start a new combat. > Thus they must happen > sequentially, and all card play is not atomic. So IotK has not yet queued > another combat at the time when it ends combat. It has. > Unless you consider the > imminent combat (the one which *will* be caused by IotK approximately 40 words > in the future) to be "queued", I do, since that's exactly what queued means. >in which case, you have to consider that in the > above two cases as well. I do. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3DECA86B...@white-wolf.com... > Chris Berger wrote: > > > > If Illusions of the Kindred has > > already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has caused > > the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic? > > No. It has queued a "go to torpor" event, though. > If a "go to torpor" event is queued, doesn't that mean that the minion is going to torpor? Just as an Undead Persistance will queue a "go to torpor" event? > > Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of Mist > > to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another combat > > is queued? > > No. No other combat is yet queued. The action would have to be successful again > to begin combat. Psyche! can be played before that success. > So having a combat queued by an action card is somehow different from it being queued by a combat card? In order for the Illusions of the Kindred combat to be queued, one would have to successfully complete the resolution of the card which could otherwise be interrupted by something like Psyche! (that is, if not for the ruling to the contrary). To preserve the queued combat, you rule that the rest of the card cannot be interrupted or cancelled. In that case, why not rule that a Bum's Rush can't be blocked, because you will then have interrupted a queued combat with another combat (the block combat)?

Chris Berger wrote: > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > news:3DECA86B...@white-wolf.com... > > Chris Berger wrote: > > > > > > If Illusions of the Kindred has > > > already queued another combat, then wouldn't you say that Rotschreck has > caused > > > the opposing minion to be "on the way to torpor" by the same logic? > > > > No. It has queued a "go to torpor" event, though. > > > If a "go to torpor" event is queued, doesn't that mean that the minion is going > to torpor? Just as an Undead Persistance will queue a "go to torpor" event? No. [TOM 31-MAY-1996] E.g., I have queued a trip to doctor's this morning (an appointment). I am not currently on my way to the doctor however. > > > Or how about if someone is blocked while Bum's Rushing and plays Form of > Mist > > > to continue the action. Should Psyche! not be playable because another > combat > > > is queued? > > > > No. No other combat is yet queued. The action would have to be successful > again > > to begin combat. Psyche! can be played before that success. > > > So having a combat queued by an action card is somehow different from it being > queued by a combat card? No. Having a combat not yet queued is different than having one queued. > In order for the Illusions of the Kindred combat to > be queued, one would have to successfully complete the resolution of the card > which could otherwise be interrupted by something like Psyche! (that is, if not > for the ruling to the contrary). Playing IotK queues combat. > To preserve the queued combat, you rule that > the rest of the card cannot be interrupted or cancelled. In that case, why not > rule that a Bum's Rush can't be blocked, because you will then have interrupted > a queued combat with another combat (the block combat)? Combat isn't queued until the action is successful. The effects of actions aren't applied when the action card is played. [ quoted text not captured ]