Why LBSO is illegal

If I understand the mechanisms of this card correctly. The Life Boon Self Oust for a Victory Point is an illegal move. I will demonstrate in sequence why you should not gain a victory point for a Life Boon Self Oust of your Predator step 1- Your predator is ousted step 2- You play Life Boon substep 2- during the playing of Life Boon, you give your predator all of your pool. Your predator gains six pool and one victory point before Life Boon is resolved. step 3- Life Boon resolves, but is immmediately burnt as you are already ousted from the game, and all your cards are immediately removed from play. You may not collect a victory point from a self oust because your predator has already gained your victory point prior to the resolution of Life Boon and therefore you are not eligible to receive it because you are only eligible to receive the next victory point your predator gains and he gained the victory point for your oust prior to Life boon being resolved. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <87n7vm$2qo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > If I understand the mechanisms of this card correctly. The Life Boon > Self Oust for a Victory Point is an illegal move. I will demonstrate in > sequence why you should not gain a victory point for a Life Boon Self > Oust of your Predator > > step 1- Your predator is ousted > step 2- You play Life Boon > substep 2- during the playing of Life Boon, you give your predator all > of your pool. Your predator gains six pool and one victory point before > Life Boon is resolved. > step 3- Life Boon resolves, but is immmediately burnt as you are already > ousted from the game, and all your cards are immediately removed from > play. > > You may not collect a victory point from a self oust because your > predator has already gained your victory point prior to the resolution > of Life Boon and therefore you are not eligible to receive it because > you are only eligible to receive the next victory point your predator > gains and he gained the victory point for your oust prior to Life boon > being resolved. > The card text states otherwise. Life Boon Card Type: Master Card Text: Master: out-of-turn "Give pool to a Methuselah with no pool to keep him or her in the game; put this card in play. During each of his or her untap phases, you can collect 1 pool from that Methuselah. The first victory point (and ante) that the Methuselah wins is given to you (even if you are ousted by then). This Life Boon is then burned." LBSO is legal. Joe C. V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <87nes1$89s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] I believe that Life Boon does not give you the first victory point that the life booned Methusalah has but rather the first victory point that they get after they have been booned. I believe LSJ posted this earlier in the Life Boon Debate: No, Life Boon reserves the "first" VP that the Methuselah "wins", not one that he has already won. Here "first" means "next". (Lovely language, English, eh?) (cf. Vast Wealth and Horrid Reality - both of which operate on the "first" weapon you find in your library without retroactively affecting the first weapon you found in your library). Answer to a question regarding successive Life Boons: each time a player is saved by Life Boon, that claims the next ante/victory point in line. [TOM 24-SEP-1995] -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp So there is your response I welcome any comments, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > If I understand the mechanisms of this card correctly. The Life Boon > Self Oust for a Victory Point is an illegal move. I will demonstrate in > sequence why you should not gain a victory point for a Life Boon Self > Oust of your Predator > > step 1- Your predator is ousted > step 2- You play Life Boon > substep 2- during the playing of Life Boon, you give your predator all > of your pool. Your predator gains six pool and one victory point before > Life Boon is resolved. > step 3- Life Boon resolves, but is immmediately burnt as you are already > ousted from the game, and all your cards are immediately removed from > play. No. Otherwise Predator of the player ousted in step 1 would gain a VP before Life Boon resolves, as well (in a substep 1a, mirroring your substep 1b). Part of the effect is the movement of pool (to save another Methuselah). Another part of the effect if that the card is put into play, with all the effects that that has. All of the effect takes place immediately when the card resolves (which is when it is played, barring a Sudden Reversal). Step 1- (some substep of another effect) Your predator is losing all her pool. (being ousted, but not already ousted). Step 2- You play Life Boon. substep 2a- Life Boon resolves. Effect: pool moves from here to there, Life Boon is put into play. (Now you are being ousted instead of your predator). substep 2b- Since you are being ousted, All your cards (including the Life Boon) are burnt immediately. But Life Boon has text saying that part of its effect applies "even if you are ousted by then", so that part still applies. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <389F35D8...@wizards.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] It was my intention to show that your predator who you played the life boon on received the victory point for your ousting prior to the resolution of life boon and therefore you were ineligible to receive said victory point [ quoted text not captured ]

(Norm kindly shared:) > It was my intention to show that your predator who you played > the life boon on received the victory point for your ousting prior to > the resolution of life boon and therefore you were ineligible to receive > said victory point Is the resolution of the Boon instantaneous? This discussion of timing, steps, and resolution has me thinking in terms of M:tG, which I positively must not do. Put simply, I would think the order of events would be: a Methuselah is reduced to zero blood; that Meth's prey LBSO's; the LBSOer is reduced to zero blood; no one Boons the LBSOer; the LBSOer is ousted, triggering the "gain 6 pool and 1 VP" phase for his/her predator. The predator in question has had a Boon played on him, and as such loses his first (since the Boon) VP to his now-exited prey. I think the interpretation of the timing might be an issue of perception. Since Life Boon is one of the few (the only?) card that interferes with the ousting and allocation of VPs, it is a single case that has few parallels. I think Norm's perception on this issue is a good way to eliminate the LBSO problem, perhaps on a local "house-rule" level. If your playgroup doesn't believe LBSO to be a problem, the Rules Team explanation is still abided by in tournaments, etc. (and, to draw the matter out further,) After having LBSO'ed yourself, can you then be saved by your prey's LBSO? I am inclined to answer 'yes', but I'm a little uncertain what that implies for the larger question at hand, here. -my apologies, matt

In article <87nihe$b6u$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: [SNIP] > I believe that Life Boon does not give you the first victory point > that > the life booned Methusalah has but rather the first victory point that > they get after they have been booned. I believe LSJ posted this > earlier in the Life Boon Debate: > No, Life Boon reserves the "first" VP that the Methuselah "wins", not > one that he has already won. Here "first" > means "next". (Lovely language, English, eh?) The next as in the next VP, you play the LB, the LB resolves, you are ousted, your predator gains a VP, you have already started packing up your deck, and you now gain that VP. [snip] > Answer to a question regarding successive Life Boons: > > each time a player is saved by Life Boon, that claims the next > ante/victory point in line. > > [TOM 24-SEP-1995] So yes if a player is LB'ed a second time, and hasn't received any VPs, you're next in queue, even if you are not at the table. When LB'ed player obtains a second VP then you will obtain a VP from him during your smoke break. Joe C. V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > LSJ <vte...@wizards.com> wrote: > > No. Otherwise Predator of the player ousted in step 1 would gain > > a VP before Life Boon resolves, as well (in a substep 1a, mirroring > > your substep 1b). > > > > Part of the effect is the movement of pool (to save > > another Methuselah). Another part of the effect if that the card > > is put into play, with all the effects that that has. All of the > > effect takes place immediately when the card resolves (which > > is when it is played, barring a Sudden Reversal). > > > > Step 1- (some substep of another effect) Your predator is losing > > all her pool. (being ousted, but not already ousted). > > Step 2- You play Life Boon. > > substep 2a- Life Boon resolves. > > Effect: pool moves from here to there, Life Boon is put into play. > > (Now you are being ousted instead of your predator). > > substep 2b- Since you are being ousted, All your cards (including > > the Life Boon) are burnt immediately. But Life Boon has text saying > > that part of its effect applies "even if you are ousted by then", > > so that part still applies. > > It was my intention to show that your predator who you played > the life boon on received the victory point for your ousting prior to > the resolution of life boon and therefore you were ineligible to receive > said victory point That intention was clear. It was my intention to correct your view. Your Predator (on whom you played the Life Boon) does not receive a victory point for your ousting prior to the resolution of the Life Boon. This is clear because, prior to the resolution of Life Boon, you still have plenty of pool and are not ousted. It is the resolution of Life Boon that moves your pool away. [ quoted text not captured ]

Matthew Heslin wrote: > Is the resolution of the Boon instantaneous? With the condition that Sudden Reversal can still be played to counter it, yes. > Put simply, I would think the order of events would > be: a Methuselah is reduced to zero blood; that Meth's > prey LBSO's; the LBSOer is reduced to zero blood; no > one Boons the LBSOer; the LBSOer is ousted, triggering > the "gain 6 pool and 1 VP" phase for his/her predator. > The predator in question has had a Boon played on him, > and as such loses his first (since the Boon) VP to his > now-exited prey. Correct. > I think the interpretation of the timing might be > an issue of perception. Since Life Boon is one of the few > (the only?) card that interferes with the ousting and > allocation of VPs, it is a single case that has few parallels. Major Boon has a application here - you can Major Boon someone as they are bled out, taking the bleed loss yourself. In this case, the Methuselah being bled is not ousted, and, if the bleed amount equals or exceeds your available pool, you are ousted. (of course, with a Major Boon, Self-Oust isn't nearly as appealing since you don't get the VP for your oust). > After having LBSO'ed yourself, can you then be > saved by your prey's LBSO? Yes. Or by anyone's Life Boon, whether she self-ousts or not. (The "active" player excluded, of course). [ quoted text not captured ]