If Millicent Smith is out and someone has their vote blocked while controlling
Millicent, will Telepathic Vote Counting [cancel current action and return
vote card to your hand] keep trhe acting minion from being burned?
I say no, but it happened last night and I'd like an official ruling from
Tom if possible. I say the minion should be burned because the action was
blocked.
In article <3opu8g$b...@nntp.msstate.edu>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
You can't play TVC at all unless the vote is called. Just like you can't play
Business Pressure, Bribes, Scorn of Adonis, Bewitching Oration, Dread Gaze,
nor Surpirise Influence unless the vote is actually called.
So, no.
--
-----
L. Scott Johnson (lsc...@crl.com) | The opinions expressed are mine
Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger | and subject to card text
lsc...@crl.com (L. Scott Johnson)
>In article <3opu8g$b...@nntp.msstate.edu>,
>Charles Richard Robb <cr...@Ra.MsState.Edu> wrote:>>If Millicent Smith is out and someone has their vote blocked while
controlling
>>Millicent, will Telepathic Vote Counting [cancel current action and
return
>>vote card to your hand] keep trhe acting minion from being burned?>>>I say no, but it happened last night and I'd like an official ruling
from
>>Tom if possible. I say the minion should be burned because the action
was
>>blocked.>
>You can't play TVC at all unless the vote is called. Just like you can't
play
>Business Pressure, Bribes, Scorn of Adonis, Bewitching Oration, Dread
Gaze,
>nor Surpirise Influence unless the vote is actually called.
TVC doesn't say "only usable during a political action", so I don't see
any reason why you can't play it prior to the vote being called. Also, I
understood the political action (or any action) to include the attempt.
If something said "only usable during a bleed action" would you say it
could only be played at the instant the bleed resolves?
Anyway, if you can play TVC during the runup, you can definitely escape
combat. You play during your last opportunity to play stealth. The
action has not yet been blocked.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
In article <3oqm2s$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
>lsc...@crl.com (L. Scott Johnson)
>>>In article <3opu8g$b...@nntp.msstate.edu>,
>>Charles Richard Robb <cr...@Ra.MsState.Edu> wrote:>>>If Millicent Smith is out and someone has their vote blocked while
>>>controlling
>>>Millicent, will Telepathic Vote Counting [cancel current action and
>>>return
>>>vote card to your hand] keep trhe acting minion from being burned?
>>>
>>>I say no, but it happened last night and I'd like an official ruling
>>>from
>>>Tom if possible. I say the minion should be burned because the action
>>>was
>>>blocked.>>
>>You can't play TVC at all unless the vote is called. Just like you can't
>>play
>>Business Pressure, Bribes, Scorn of Adonis, Bewitching Oration, Dread
>>Gaze,
>>nor Surpirise Influence unless the vote is actually called.>
>TVC doesn't say "only usable during a political action", so I don't see
>any reason why you can't play it prior to the vote being called. Also, I
>understood the political action (or any action) to include the attempt.
>If something said "only usable during a bleed action" would you say it
>could only be played at the instant the bleed resolves?
Well, unfortunately Political Actions don't have nice terminology.
Cryptic Rider says: after a successful Politcal Action (vote)"
but means (DTR:) after a successful Referendum.
TVC says "cancel the *current* Political Action", meaning the current
Referendum, and must therefore be played during the referendum.
It should probably have errata (like Business Pressure) that it "can only
be used during a Political Action", esp. since it says "current Political
Action" on the card.
Bleed action is clear.
Political Action is not - since the rulebook uses it for too many things
(the action and the referendum).
>
>Anyway, if you can play TVC during the runup, you can definitely escape
>combat. You play during your last opportunity to play stealth. The
>action has not yet been blocked.
True enough.
[ quoted text not captured ]
>Well, unfortunately Political Actions don't have nice terminology.
Amen.
>TVC says "cancel the *current* Political Action", meaning the current
>Referendum, and must therefore be played during the referendum.
My terminology is:
Political Action: Vampire attempting to call a vote
Vote: Vampires and Methuseleh vote on a referendum.
>It should probably have errata (like Business Pressure) that it "can only
>be used during a Political Action", esp. since it says "current Political
>Action" on the card.
I've mentioned that the + vote cards look like they should be used only
during the runup, as the "cancel vote" cards (TVC and Pulling Strings)
have complicated mechanics if vampires can change the number of votes they
cast during a referendum.
>Bleed action is clear.
>Political Action is not - since the rulebook uses it for too many things
>(the action and the referendum).
What would you call the political analogue to a bleed action?
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
In article <3or59h$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Well, unfortunately Political Actions don't have nice terminology.>Amen.
>>My terminology is:
>Political Action: Vampire attempting to call a vote
>Vote: Vampires and Methuseleh vote on a referendum.
That's fine, but the cards' texts don follow your convention - or
all of the "only usable during a political action" cards would say
"only usable during a vote". (As I understand them).
>>>It should probably have errata (like Business Pressure) that it "can only
>>be used during a Political Action", esp. since it says "current Political
>>Action" on the card.>
>I've mentioned that the + vote cards look like they should be used only
>during the runup, as the "cancel vote" cards (TVC and Pulling Strings)
>have complicated mechanics if vampires can change the number of votes they
>cast during a referendum.
Well, I don't share that opinion - it is easy enough to retro-cancel and
preempt-cancel a vampire's votes no matter when the votes are gained.
>>>Bleed action is clear.
>>Political Action is not - since the rulebook uses it for too many things
>>(the action and the referendum).>
>What would you call the political analogue to a bleed action?
a bleed is instantaneous, a referendum is not.
in that there is not analog.
[ quoted text not captured ]
lsc...@crl.com (L. Scott Johnson) writes:
>>I've mentioned that the + vote cards look like they should be used only
>>during the runup, as the "cancel vote" cards (TVC and Pulling Strings)
>>have complicated mechanics if vampires can change the number of votes
they
>>cast during a referendum.>Well, I don't share that opinion - it is easy enough to retro-cancel and
>preempt-cancel a vampire's votes no matter when the votes are gained.
Easy - but not entirely obvious that one should.
>>>>Bleed action is clear.
>>>Political Action is not - since the rulebook uses it for too many
things
>>>(the action and the referendum).>>>What would you call the political analogue to a bleed action?> a bleed is instantaneous, a referendum is not.
>in that there is not analog.
A bleed action refers to the runup. What refers to the runup for a vote?
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) writes:
>lsc...@crl.com (L. Scott Johnson) writes:>>>I've mentioned that the + vote cards look like they should be used only
>>>during the runup, as the "cancel vote" cards (TVC and Pulling Strings)
>>>have complicated mechanics if vampires can change the number of votes>they>>>cast during a referendum.>>Well, I don't share that opinion - it is easy enough to retro-cancel and
>>preempt-cancel a vampire's votes no matter when the votes are gained.>Easy - but not entirely obvious that one should.
Easy but complicated, eh? which argument do you want to use? :-)
>>>>Bleed action is clear.
>>>>Political Action is not - since the rulebook uses it for too many>things>>>>(the action and the referendum).>>>>>What would you call the political analogue to a bleed action?>> a bleed is instantaneous, a referendum is not.
>>in that there is not analog.>A bleed action refers to the runup. What refers to the runup for a vote?
Political Action refers to the runup. Unfortunately, it also refers to
the Referendum.
If it does not (as you seem to propose), then you can only play:
Bewitching Oration, Surprise Influence, Dread Gaze, Business Pressure,
Disarming Presence, Elder Kindred Network, etc. *before* terms are set (during
the runup - the Political Action part).
And some of these cards become redundant (Only during a Political Action
before Votes are cast is redundant if Political Action doesn't refer to the
Referendum).
If the DT had been more clear, and used the term Referndum, then this
conversation would not be necessary.
To use "Bleed" for both the action runup and the action resolution creates
no problems because the action resolution is instantaneous.
The two are not the same animal.
[ quoted text not captured ]
lsc...@crl.com (L. Scott Johnson)
>curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) writes:>>lsc...@crl.com (L. Scott Johnson) writes:>>>>I've mentioned that the + vote cards look like they should be used
only
>>>>during the runup, as the "cancel vote" cards (TVC and Pulling Strings)
>>>>have complicated mechanics if vampires can change the number of votes>>they>>>>cast during a referendum.>>>Well, I don't share that opinion - it is easy enough to retro-cancel
and
>>>preempt-cancel a vampire's votes no matter when the votes are gained.>>Easy - but not entirely obvious that one should.>Easy but complicated, eh? which argument do you want to use? :-)
If a prince votes and then throws a Dread Gaze, IS he casting his votes
again? If so, can he change how he cast the new votes - he should, since
he is casting votes. Or is is that since he has already cast his votes,
the new ones sit around uselessly? If he's not casting votes, how does
his opponent use PS? Ick.
>>>>Bleed action is clear.
>>>>Political Action is not - since the rulebook uses it for too many>things>>>>(the action and the referendum).>>>>>What would you call the political analogue to a bleed action?>> a bleed is instantaneous, a referendum is not.
>>in that there is not analog.>A bleed action refers to the runup. What refers to the runup for a vote?>Political Action refers to the runup. Unfortunately, it also refers to
>the Referendum.
>If it does not (as you seem to propose), then you can only play:
>Bewitching Oration, Surprise Influence, Dread Gaze, Business Pressure,
>Disarming Presence, Elder Kindred Network, etc. *before* terms are set
(during
>the runup - the Political Action part).>And some of these cards become redundant (Only during a Political Action
>before Votes are cast is redundant if Political Action doesn't refer to
the
>Referendum).
Actions refer to the entire sequence. The vote, and the aftermath, are
all part of the political action.
>If the DT had been more clear, and used the term Referndum, then this
>conversation would not be necessary.
Except "political action" always can refer the the whole shebang, and vote
only to the sitting around in the Camarilla part. Replace "political
action" with "vote action" and the whole things becomes clear. The DT put
on the business about "political action" sometimes only referring to the
vote, but that is not in the rules nor the cards.
>To use "Bleed" for both the action runup and the action resolution
creates
>no problems because the action resolution is instantaneous.>The two are not the same animal.
Note the restriction on action modifiers: "The same action modifier card
cannot be used twice by the same minion *during* the same action".
There's similar wording for reactions.
So clearly action refers to the runup.
The phrase "vote" is used in the list of possible actions - but that's
perfectly reasonable as all of the listed actions describe the result of
the action - e.g. "bleed", not "bleed action".
Cryptic Rider does say "only usable after a political action is
successful" and we all agree with the interpretation that that requires
that the vote succeed, not just be called. But that's entirely consistent
with other actions - an unblocked bleed for 0 is also considered
unsuccessful.
If you look at the cards, every card that mentions political action is
consistent with the interpretation that political action is just like any
other kind of action and includes the runup phase. OTOH, Natasha's
special ability and the "call a vote to burn" cards both imply that
"political action" refers to more than the voting phase.
So political actions are exactly analogous to other actions:
Equip actions cause equiping.
Bleed actions cause bleeds.
Political actions cause votes.
and "political action" includes the runup.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) writes:
>lsc...@crl.com (L. Scott Johnson)
[deleted]
[ quoted text not captured ]
[deleted]
>Cryptic Rider does say "only usable after a political action is
>successful" and we all agree with the interpretation that that requires
>that the vote succeed, not just be called. But that's entirely consistent
>with other actions - an unblocked bleed for 0 is also considered
>unsuccessful.
An unsuccessful Bleed, yes. But it is still a successful action (for
purposes of Freak Drive, etc.) - you just don't get the Edge.
>If you look at the cards, every card that mentions political action is
>consistent with the interpretation that political action is just like any
>other kind of action and includes the runup phase. OTOH, Natasha's
>special ability and the "call a vote to burn" cards both imply that
>"political action" refers to more than the voting phase.>So political actions are exactly analogous to other actions:>Equip actions cause equiping.
>Bleed actions cause bleeds.
>Political actions cause votes.>and "political action" includes the runup.
Unfortunately the DT does not agree with you. Cards that can be played "Only
During a Political Action" can only be played during the Referendum, not
the runup.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) | These opinions are mine and
Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger. | are subject to card text.
sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:
Peace Scott,
>>with other actions - an unblocked bleed for 0 is also considered
>>unsuccessful.>An unsuccessful Bleed, yes. But it is still a successful action (for
>purposes of Freak Drive, etc.) - you just don't get the Edge.
So bleed is an action. How can it be successful and unsuccessful at
the same time? An unsuccessful bleed is also a successful action? This
could only be the case if you interpret all unblocked actions to be
successful. In zero bleed to your prey your minion was successful in
"taking the action" but the action itself did not fullfil any
requirements for successful action (pool reduction, edge).
I hope this never becomes an official ruling that 0 bleed is a
succesful action. Too much confusion, as if Rotschreck is not enough.
))marko
--
I would give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
ma...@beta.hut.fi (Marko Puumalainen) writes:
>sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:>Peace Scott,>>>with other actions - an unblocked bleed for 0 is also considered
>>>unsuccessful.>>An unsuccessful Bleed, yes. But it is still a successful action (for
>>purposes of Freak Drive, etc.) - you just don't get the Edge.>So bleed is an action. How can it be successful and unsuccessful at
>the same time? An unsuccessful bleed is also a successful action? This
The same way that you can have a failed vote after successfully calling
the vote.
>could only be the case if you interpret all unblocked actions to be
>successful. In zero bleed to your prey your minion was successful in
All unblocked actions *are* successful, for purposes of Freak Drive.
The bleed (of zero) is not successful for purposes of the Edge.
A failed vote is not successful for purposes of Cryptic Rider.
>"taking the action" but the action itself did not fullfil any
>requirements for successful action (pool reduction, edge).>I hope this never becomes an official ruling that 0 bleed is a
>succesful action. Too much confusion, as if Rotschreck is not enough.
It is official, and fairly intuitive.
[14]: "If unblocked, the minion's action is successful."
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