Several Misc. Questions (Multi-Disciplines, Fake Cards, Forgetting Things, "Bribery," and Announcing)

Hey there! Just had a handful of misc. questions I've had on my mind for a bit: #1. From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) Subject: Re: Double Discipline cards Q Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Date: 2001-12-17 06:45:19 PST << Ah. <White Flag> I yield to your ironclad logic. REVERSAL: Infernal Familiar will supply a (single) missing Discipline (at normal) towards the play of a card that requires multiple Disciplines. >> Just to touch base once again, just like with Infernal Familiar, would Infernal Pact and/or Ian Forestal then allow the playing of multi-discipline cards? Infernal Pact seems good ("The vampire with this card can play cards that require that Discipline as though he or she has the superior version of that Discipline"), which seems to follow the function and logic of Infernal Familiar. Ian seems a bit more iffy ("Ian can play cards of any Discipline as though he has the basic level of that Discipline.") but it could be argued designer's intent or something. Ian Forestal and Infernal Familiar seem to have the same functionality, so it would be a bit odd that due to a slight difference in wording (perhaps unintentional), the two end up functioning differently in this regard. In addition, though Ian refers to "Discipline" (singular, not plural), it's quite likely that the designers in Sabbat did not have enough foresight to predict that multi-discipline cards would be introduced 5-6 years down the line. So? #2. Now that VTES has made a resurgence, perhaps it's time to deal with the issue of cards, proofs, and fakes? First off, just curious, but are artist proofs considered legal for tourneys and all? In some cases, they have the appropriate front (but a blank back). But using card sleeves would eliminate the back problem. I don't think so, but I can't really think of a sufficient reason to explain why not. Also, should the VTES community start worrying about possible fakes? Truth be told, I don't think anyone really checks the authenticity of one's cards in tournaments. So if I make some good fakes and stick em in sleeves, most people might just assume that I indeed have 10 ToGP's, etc. In addition, I'm a bit curious if anyone has actually found fake cards traded to them. I haven't discovered any fakes in all my trades yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were a handful in there. And, for all I know, someone I recently traded with might have unknowingly traded me a fake card if they got the fake from someone else and honestly thought it was genuine. Any thoughts? #3. Okay, similar topics have come up before yielding such confirmations as "using locations is not mandatory" (including HG's), and also issues like "if someone forgets to, say, pay the cost or effect of a card like the Infernal cost or some mandatory effect, they can be punished with VEKN Tourney penalties." But I was just a bit curious where responsibility lies. It seems pretty clear that if I control something, I should be responsible for remembering its upkeep costs, etc. But a lot of the time, it's difficult to keep track of all the cards the other players have (for example, if your predator is now literally across the table after ousting a player). So whose responsibility is it to remember the Army of Rats or Egothha he has in play? My playgroup has always used a "too bad, so sad" sort of rule, so if you forget to use something, then too bad. But in tourneys, if my predator doesn't *use* Egothha's special or doesn't remind me, should we do things retroactively? Alternatively, if a penalty is called for, who should get it - my predator or me? Thanks! #4. In a recent thread about collusion and tourney prizes, I posted something that only got partially responded to and I just wanted to confirm the other part. I remember reading a while back that though bribing was against the rules, you were allowed to share/split tourney prizes (supposedly bribing involved outside items whereas tourney prizes were within the scope of the tournament). So say that the final comes down to two players, and either can win. If Player A is more concerned about winning prizes and Player B is more concerned about his rating, they could make a deal where Player A lets Player B win (who gets a better rating), but Player B then lets Player A get the first place prize? So is this legal? This might be slightly more important now with the story-line tournaments, where some people might rather have their clan win than win any particular tournament prizes. So...? #5. I'm pretty sure that announcing discards (or at the very least you're discard something) and using effects have to be announced, right? So if my predator wants to use the Burn option during my turn, they should announce it (instead of just discreetly discarding and drawing)? Similarly, if I want to tap the Fragment, I should tell everyone what I'm doing instead of doing it secretly, correct? Just wanted to confirm it all. Well, that's about it for now. Thanks for the responses! Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > > Hey there! Just had a handful of misc. questions I've had on my mind for a bit: > > #1. From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) > Subject: Re: Double Discipline cards Q > Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad > Date: 2001-12-17 06:45:19 PST > > << Ah. > <White Flag> > I yield to your ironclad logic. > > REVERSAL: > Infernal Familiar will supply a (single) missing Discipline (at normal) towards > the play of a card that requires multiple Disciplines. > >> > > Just to touch base once again, just like with Infernal Familiar, would Infernal > Pact and/or Ian Forestal then allow the playing of multi-discipline cards? Only as far as supplying one of the missing Disciplines. > Infernal Pact seems good ("The vampire with this card can play cards that > require that Discipline as though he or she has the superior version of that > Discipline"), which seems to follow the function and logic of Infernal > Familiar. Ian seems a bit more iffy ("Ian can play cards of any Discipline as > though he has the basic level of that Discipline.") but it could be argued > designer's intent or something. Ian Forestal and Infernal Familiar seem to have > the same functionality, so it would be a bit odd that due to a slight > difference in wording (perhaps unintentional), the two end up functioning > differently in this regard. In addition, though Ian refers to "Discipline" > (singular, not plural), it's quite likely that the designers in Sabbat did not > have enough foresight to predict that multi-discipline cards would be > introduced 5-6 years down the line. So? He can supply one missing (normal, not superior) Discipline. > #2. Now that VTES has made a resurgence, perhaps it's time to deal with the > issue of cards, proofs, and fakes? First off, just curious, but are artist > proofs considered legal for tourneys and all? In some cases, they have the Of course not. [VEKN 4.1] > #3. Okay, similar topics have come up before yielding such confirmations as > "using locations is not mandatory" (including HG's), and also issues like "if > someone forgets to, say, pay the cost or effect of a card like the Infernal > cost or some mandatory effect, they can be punished with VEKN Tourney > penalties." But I was just a bit curious where responsibility lies. It seems Penalties apply only if the oversight is intentional (cheating) or repeated after some initial reminders. > pretty clear that if I control something, I should be responsible for > remembering its upkeep costs, etc. But a lot of the time, it's difficult to > keep track of all the cards the other players have (for example, if your > predator is now literally across the table after ousting a player). So whose > responsibility is it to remember the Army of Rats or Egothha he has in play? My The table's. Typically the onus falls on the controller of the effect or the "beneficiary" of the effect, for obvious reasons. > playgroup has always used a "too bad, so sad" sort of rule, so if you forget to > use something, then too bad. But in tourneys, if my predator doesn't *use* > Egothha's special or doesn't remind me, should we do things retroactively? > Alternatively, if a penalty is called for, who should get it - my predator or > me? Thanks! You retro if possible (judge's decision) - retro'ing means redoing everything after the point of error. If not, you correct the problem as best possible (judge's decision). In Egothha's case (assuming no one has advance knowledge of the card order of the library in question), this could be something as simple as burning the card (and not gaining blood) currently on top of the library. > #4. In a recent thread about collusion and tourney prizes, I posted something > that only got partially responded to and I just wanted to confirm the other > part. I remember reading a while back that though bribing was against the > rules, you were allowed to share/split tourney prizes (supposedly bribing > involved outside items whereas tourney prizes were within the scope of the > tournament). So say that the final comes down to two players, and either can > win. If Player A is more concerned about winning prizes and Player B is more > concerned about his rating, they could make a deal where Player A lets Player B > win (who gets a better rating), but Player B then lets Player A get the first > place prize? So is this legal? This might be slightly more important now with > the story-line tournaments, where some people might rather have their clan win > than win any particular tournament prizes. So...? Judge rules. Splitting the prizes (or anything else not introduced by the players) is allowed [VEKN PG 161] > #5. I'm pretty sure that announcing discards (or at the very least you're > discard something) and using effects have to be announced, right? So if my > predator wants to use the Burn option during my turn, they should announce it > (instead of just discreetly discarding and drawing)? Similarly, if I want to > tap the Fragment, I should tell everyone what I'm doing instead of doing it > secretly, correct? Just wanted to confirm it all. Yes. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> #3. Okay, similar topics have come up before yielding such confirmations as > "using locations is not mandatory" (including HG's), and also issues like "if > someone forgets to, say, pay the cost or effect of a card like the Infernal > cost or some mandatory effect, they can be punished with VEKN Tourney > penalties." But I was just a bit curious where responsibility lies. It seems > pretty clear that if I control something, I should be responsible for > remembering its upkeep costs, etc. But a lot of the time, it's difficult to > keep track of all the cards the other players have (for example, if your > predator is now literally across the table after ousting a player). So whose > responsibility is it to remember the Army of Rats or Egothha he has in play? My > playgroup has always used a "too bad, so sad" sort of rule, so if you forget to > use something, then too bad. But in tourneys, if my predator doesn't *use* > Egothha's special or doesn't remind me, should we do things retroactively? > Alternatively, if a penalty is called for, who should get it - my predator or > me? Thanks! Hunting grounds are not mandatory? People in my play area have always defended that unless a card has "May" printed on it or an activation such as tapping are all mandatory. Like the hunting grounds that say: "a ready vampire you control gains 1 blood from the blood bank" Seems like it just happens. There is no way to avoid it. If its your untap a vampire is gaining 1. Additional questions: "1.2. Necessary Tournament Materials A visible and reliable method to maintain and record game information " Can I force people to use counters instead of dice for pool/blood on a vampire? "1.4 Taking Notes Players are not allowed to take written notes of their opponents' decks or activities, with the exception of the following items: Their opponents' names (and other relevant personal information) Their opponents' V:EKN numbers Which player played first. Status of the game (such as counters in pool, Master: Out-of-Turn cards played, transfers taken, diableries made, resources, and so on) The number of turns that have elapsed. " What is the purpose of this rule? Does this rule prevent me, as a player, from using a transcription system from recording a tournamet game I am playing in? Included in 'status of the game' is it okay to record pool, and what it has been spent for? Example: Wes: (-5 Xfer, -1 bleed) Bernie: (-6 Xfer, +1 blood doll) Aaron (-1 dreams of the sphinx -7 xfers) More useful then: player 1"my notes say you have 3 pool" player 2"well there are 5 here in my stash" player 1"you miscounted, you are at 3" player 2"prove it, i think you just miswrote" Oh, and again(probably the 1 millionth time) What is the ruleing on ancient influence(and the like) votes used for vote pushing? Can they be played later? Can they be used for vote pushing later. If I call ancient influence can someone cross table push with their own copy? It changes every week it seems like? -- Aaron The Nosferatu Stuff

The Nosferatu Stuff wrote: > Hunting grounds are not mandatory? Right. HG are optional. Locations are optional by default. > Additional questions: > "1.2. Necessary Tournament Materials > A visible and reliable method to maintain and record game information " > Can I force people to use counters instead of dice for pool/blood on a > vampire? You can ask the judge to force a player to do so. It's up to the judge to determine if a given method meets the "reliable" criterion above. > "1.4 Taking Notes > Players are not allowed to take written notes of their opponents' decks or > activities, with the exception of the following items: > Their opponents' names (and other relevant personal information) > Their opponents' V:EKN numbers > Which player played first. > Status of the game (such as counters in pool, Master: Out-of-Turn cards > played, transfers taken, diableries made, resources, and so on) > The number of turns that have elapsed. " > What is the purpose of this rule? > Does this rule prevent me, as a player, from using a transcription system > from recording a tournamet game I am playing in? No. "Status of the game" > Included in 'status of the game' is it okay to record pool, and what it has > been spent for? Example: Wes: (-5 Xfer, -1 bleed) Bernie: (-6 Xfer, +1 blood > doll) Aaron (-1 dreams of the sphinx -7 xfers) More useful then: > player 1"my notes say you have 3 pool" > player 2"well there are 5 here in my stash" > player 1"you miscounted, you are at 3" > player 2"prove it, i think you just miswrote" Not sure if there's a question in there or not. > Oh, and again(probably the 1 millionth time) What is the ruleing on ancient > influence(and the like) votes used for vote pushing? Can they be played > later? Can they be used for vote pushing later. If I call ancient > influence can someone cross table push with their own copy? It changes > every week it seems like? "pushed" PAs are "burned", not played, so don't count as played and restrictions on being played won't restrict them from being burned. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Hunting grounds are not mandatory? People in my play area have always >defended that unless a card has "May" printed on it or an activation such >as tapping are all mandatory. Like the hunting grounds that say: "a ready >vampire you control gains 1 blood from the blood bank" Seems like it just >happens. There is no way to avoid it. If its your untap a vampire is >gaining 1. Hunting grounds are *not* mandatory. Aaron, I used to have the same problem (people I knew kept saying there was no "may," so they must be mandatory). But then I asked LSJ and he said that locations weren't mandatory. << From: LSJ (vte...@MailAndNews.com) Subject: RE: Contesting Question for LSJ Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Date: 2001-07-15 05:01:31 PST >But in this case, we are talking about cards that follow the "During X, >do Y" template. So, if someone "forgets" their Hunting Ground location, >they have to go back to their untap phase and use their Hunting Ground, >correct? And wouldn't you as a judge have to issue a Caution or a >Warning, as necessary? It's optional, as stated. So, no. >> [OR] << From: LSJ (vte...@MailAndNews.com) Subject: RE: Contesting Question for LSJ Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad View this article only Date: 2001-07-16 04:09:10 PST >> It's optional, as stated. So, no. > >Forgive me for being difficult, but I don't understand what you mean by >"as stated". Are you saying that you have just made a ruling on Hunting >Grounds in this thread? I meant: "as I stated in the quote above". The "you do X" of locations isn't mandatory in general. You are not forced to tap Al's Army Apparatus. You are not forced to tap Arcane Library during your influence phase. You are not forced to tap Art Museum during your influence phase. You are not forced to tap Backways when a Gangrel you control takes an action. You are not forced to tap The Barrens. You are not forced to use the Chantry during your untap phase (per specific ruling) etc. >It's just that I'm trying to understand how a card that says: > >"During your untap phase, a ready vampire you control gains 1 blood from >the blood bank. A vampire can only gain 1 blood from Hunting Ground >cards each turn." > >...can be considered optional. There is no "may", as with the Edge. >The text states that during a specific phase, you do THIS; doesn't that >mean that, when the time comes, you 'DO IT' ? > >I see no erratta for Hunting Grounds, and the template seems pretty >clear: During X, do Y. I'll update the card lists so that the locations (HGs, those list above, etc.) are explicitly optional. >> >Oh, and again(probably the 1 millionth time) What is the ruleing on ancient >influence(and the like) votes used for vote pushing? Can they be played >later? Can they be used for vote pushing later. If I call ancient >influence can someone cross table push with their own copy? It changes >every week it seems like? When you vote push, you aren't actually playing the card (don't forget that "playing a card" has a specific meaning in Jyhad/VTES, which is also important for, say, Agaitas). So if I vote push with Ancient Influence, it hasn't been played, and can be played later. Once Political Stranglehold has been played, it can still be discarded for votes (which isn't playing it). Hope that helps! Halcyan 2

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3C40BBDB...@white-wolf.com... > The Nosferatu Stuff wrote: > > Hunting grounds are not mandatory? > > Right. HG are optional. Locations are optional by default. Interesting, never considered Elder library optional? So I can have a 7 or 8 card hand? How about secure haven? I mean, its a location, and they are optional.(per LSJ) If I don't want to be immune to directed actions can I opt out so I can play a (D) action on him?(lets say I wanted to Blackmail my own guy to tap him and he has a secure haven?) Or hungary coyote. So I guess if you hunt and only add 1 blood to the vampire, since the location is optional I can't retroactivly add the extra blood cause gaining 2 is optional? > > "1.4 Taking Notes > > Players are not allowed to take written notes of their opponents' decks or > > activities, with the exception of the following items: > > Their opponents' names (and other relevant personal information) > > Their opponents' V:EKN numbers > > Which player played first. > > Status of the game (such as counters in pool, Master: Out-of-Turn cards > > played, transfers taken, diableries made, resources, and so on) > > The number of turns that have elapsed. " > > What is the purpose of this rule? > > Does this rule prevent me, as a player, from using a transcription system > > from recording a tournamet game I am playing in? > > No. "Status of the game" So what does it prevent me from taking notes on? What does the first sentance mean when it says: "players are not allowed to take written notes of their opponents decks or *activites* **scribble scribble** Untaps all minions...plays master card Info Highway...Bernie gets a frustrated look on his.... LSJ: "Hold it right there! Taking notes on other players facial expressions, tournament rules 1.4 I'm giving you a warning!" Aaron: "Add it onto the list with the rest of them! ;)" > > Included in 'status of the game' is it okay to record pool, and what it has > > been spent for? Example: Wes: (-5 Xfer, -1 bleed) Bernie: (-6 Xfer, +1 blood > > doll) Aaron (-1 dreams of the sphinx -7 xfers) More useful then: > > player 1"my notes say you have 3 pool" > > player 2"well there are 5 here in my stash" > > player 1"you miscounted, you are at 3" > > player 2"prove it, i think you just miswrote" > > Not sure if there's a question in there or not. See the first sentance where it says: "is it okay to record pool, and what it has been spent for?" That would be the question! ;) The rest is an explanation as to why it could be helpful to have a record of what my prey has spend/lost pool on. [ quoted text not captured ]

The Nosferatu Stuff wrote: > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > news:3C40BBDB...@white-wolf.com... > > The Nosferatu Stuff wrote: > > > Hunting grounds are not mandatory? > > > > Right. HG are optional. Locations are optional by default. > > Interesting, never considered Elder library optional? So I can have a 7 or > 8 card hand? No. > How about secure haven? I mean, its a location, and they are optional.(per > LSJ) If I don't want to be immune to directed actions can I opt out so I > can play a (D) action on him?(lets say I wanted to Blackmail my own guy to > tap him and he has a secure haven?) No. > Or hungary coyote. So I guess if you hunt and only add 1 blood to the > vampire, since the location is optional I can't retroactivly add the extra > blood cause gaining 2 is optional? No. Those locations describe things that are. Not things that you do. Hungry Coyote is "always on" by explicit card text, as well. [ quoted text not captured ]

"The Nosferatu Stuff" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:a1qr1i$s9d1j$1...@ID-125246.news.dfncis.de: > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > news:3C40BBDB...@white-wolf.com... >> The Nosferatu Stuff wrote: >> > Hunting grounds are not mandatory? >> >> Right. HG are optional. Locations are optional by default. > > Interesting, never considered Elder library optional? So I can have a > 7 or 8 card hand? Hey, that makes Elder Library a super-Barrens, just keep switching between 7 and 8 cards and discard all the garbage until you get the perfect hand... :-P > How about secure haven? I mean, its a location, and they are > optional.(per LSJ) If I don't want to be immune to directed actions > can I opt out so I can play a (D) action on him?(lets say I wanted to > Blackmail my own guy to tap him and he has a secure haven?) Any (D) action taken on your own minions would become undirected, so that is not an issue. However, you can apparently 'turn off' the Secure Haven when you want to pay a Master card on your minion to avoid paying the extra pool. Or avoid burning it when the minion goes to torpor. Obviously Secure Haven's effects should all be mandatory (as should Elder Library), but there's no text to override the 'default' optional status. [to LSJ] Wouldn't it be better to review that ruling? If you want to keep HG (and similar cards) optional, you could add that only locations with a 'During X, do Y' effect are optional, 'always on' locations are mandatory. Flux

> [to LSJ] > Wouldn't it be better to review that ruling? > If you want to keep HG (and similar cards) optional, you could add that > only locations with a 'During X, do Y' effect are optional, 'always on' > locations are mandatory. To quote LSJ "Those locations describe things that are. Not things that you do. Hungry Coyote is "always on" by explicit card text, as well." I think this is actually what he is saying. If it is do something that you do it's optional. Secure Haven and Elder Library don't let you "do" something, they just tells you that you have and additional hand size or you have to pay 1 pool to play masters on the minon and it can't be the target of (D) actions.

In message <u432jfn...@news.supernews.com>, GreySeer <e...@i.think.not> writes: >To quote LSJ > >"Those locations describe things that are. Not things that you do. >Hungry Coyote is "always on" by explicit card text, as well." > >I think this is actually what he is saying. (Referencing locations by LSJ's words.) There are some cards which describe things you "may" do (or similar text). These are optional, of course. (e.g. Pier 13) There are some cards that just change what is the case e.g. an increase in hand size. These are not optional. (e.g. Elder Library) There are other cards which provide you with certain facilities. You are not required to do what they say unless you want to. e.g. Al's Army Appartus. By LSJ's ruling, Hunting Grounds come into this third category. -- James Coupe You remind me of the babe. What babe? PGP 0x5D623D5D The babe with the power. What power? EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Power of voodoo. Who do? 13D7E668C3695D623D5D You do. Do what? Remind me of the babe.

> There are some cards which describe things you "may" do (or similar > text). These are optional, of course. (e.g. Pier 13) > > There are some cards that just change what is the case e.g. an increase > in hand size. These are not optional. (e.g. Elder Library) > > There are other cards which provide you with certain facilities. You > are not required to do what they say unless you want to. e.g. Al's Army > Appartus. > > > By LSJ's ruling, Hunting Grounds come into this third category. Yes, a bit more complete that the rest of the thread. If it's a location and it states something that "is" it fits into category 2. If it's a location and it allows you to "do" something, it fits into category 3.

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3C417016...@white-wolf.com... [ quoted text not captured ] What is the explicit card text you are referring to? It just says it happens, assumingly its not optional when it says it flat out happens(no 'may' in card text) OR(from your ruling that all locations are optional) that the stupid coyote is optional. Because hunting grounds similarly do not allow a may or optional phrase: Hungary Coyote: "Whenever a Sabbat vampire you control hunts successfully, he or she gains an additional blood" When X(sabbat hunts) do Y(gain 1 additional) Hunting Ground: "During your untap phase, a ready vampire you control gains 1 blood from the blood bank." When X(my untap) do Y(add 1 blood) Both refer to specific conditions when something should happen. The above 3 are(I think) the only 'always on' mandatory locations. It seems like the ruling is "locations are always optional...as long as they are hunting grounds" Hunting grounds are the only optional yet non-player initiated locations. I think that if you want locations to be optional it has to be all(including coyote) or the stupid hunting grounds need to get changed to "tap during your untap" to match every other optional once per turn use location in existence. [ quoted text not captured ]

"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in news:u439hr4...@news.supernews.com: [ quoted text not captured ] A few objections: - telling 2 and 3 apart can be problematic in some cases (it doesn't seem like you 'do' anything with a HG, it just happens) - all (or nearly all) locations that fit category 1 would work the same under this ruling if you removed the word 'may'. That seems to indicate that designer intent was that locations were _not_ optional by default. Flux

In message <Xns9195D332C8...@130.133.1.4>, Flux <fl...@netc.pt> writes: >A few objections: >- telling 2 and 3 apart can be problematic in some cases (it doesn't seem >like you 'do' anything with a HG, it just happens) True, hence the need to clarify these things occasionally. >- all (or nearly all) locations that fit category 1 would work the same >under this ruling if you removed the word 'may'. That seems to indicate >that designer intent was that locations were _not_ optional by default. True - though if you go through the lists, a lot of the locations including "may" in their text are from later sets. (Though far from all.) Certain such things are cleared up in later texts and reprints. It would probably be good to see the optionality emphasised in a re- print. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, LSJ wrote: > The Nosferatu Stuff wrote: > > > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > > news:3C40BBDB...@white-wolf.com... > > > The Nosferatu Stuff wrote: > > > > Hunting grounds are not mandatory? > > > > > > Right. HG are optional. Locations are optional by default. > > > > Interesting, never considered Elder library optional? So I can have a 7 or > > 8 card hand? > > No. > > > How about secure haven? I mean, its a location, and they are optional.(per > > LSJ) If I don't want to be immune to directed actions can I opt out so I > > can play a (D) action on him?(lets say I wanted to Blackmail my own guy to > > tap him and he has a secure haven?) > > No. > > > Or hungary coyote. So I guess if you hunt and only add 1 blood to the > > vampire, since the location is optional I can't retroactivly add the extra > > blood cause gaining 2 is optional? > > No. > > Those locations describe things that are. Not things that you do. > Hungry Coyote is "always on" by explicit card text, as well. ok. High museum of Art, Atlanta, describes things that you do. being "when you get control, get 4 pool" (paraphrased) - something you do. when you lose control, lose 4 pool (paraphrased) - another thing you do. can you count these effects as "optional"? like, obviously you shouldn't be able to..but the blanket "optional by default" rule should perhaps be re-worked somehow? salem.

"....salem christ...." <u360...@bohm.anu.edu.au> wrote in news:Pine.SOL.3.90.1020114182453.16451A-100000@bohm: > ok. High museum of Art, Atlanta, describes things that you do. being > "when you get control, get 4 pool" (paraphrased) - something you do. > when you lose control, lose 4 pool (paraphrased) - another thing you > do. can you count these effects as "optional"? > like, obviously you shouldn't be able to..but the blanket "optional by > default" rule should perhaps be re-worked somehow? I thought of that one too. I suppose you could write it simply as '+4 pool', a la Elder Library, and then it becomes clear it's a permanent change, though current cardtext seems otherwise. Flux

"Flux" <fl...@netc.pt> wrote in message news:Xns91967627DB...@130.133.1.4... [ quoted text not captured ] Good point, I'd say that HMoAA falls under the "do" template too.