Questions re: Jack of Both Sides

I have some questions regarding ordering the sequence of things that occur when someone plays Jack of Both Sides. Say it is my turn, I tap one of my minions and announce to the table (put the card down) that they are attempting the action "Jack of Both Sides", at +2 stealth. As far as I understand things, the first thing that happens is I replace the card to go back to my hand size. Then we have the "as it is being played" window, which would for example let someone else play Direct Intervention. Now I'm guessing what happens next is that I show (but not *play*, i.e. keep in my hand and remain at my current hand size) an equipment or retainer card to all other players and declare that this is the card that Jack of Both Sides is targeting? And then, having seen what card I am attempting to equip/employ, other players (beginning with my predator) can commence block attempts. Is this correct? We often have some confusion when this card is played (it's usually me, I'm quite a fan of it) as far as what is put on the table, what is replaced, when do I have to announce it, etc. For example can someone wait until I declare what equipment/retainer card is before they decide to Direct Intervention the Jack of Both Sides? Does the equipment retainer card stay in my hand or go onto the table while block attempts are being made / resolved?

On 19 Apr 2007 17:55:04 -0700, Dasein <dasei...@hotmail.com> wrote: >I have some questions regarding ordering the sequence of things that >occur when someone plays Jack of Both Sides. >Say it is my turn, I tap one of my minions and announce to the table >(put the card down) that they are attempting the action "Jack of Both >Sides", at +2 stealth. Not done announcing the action yet. You must state the card you wish to acquire at this point, before you replace. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/ 6.2.1. Announce the Action Announce the action and tap the acting minion (only ready untapped minions can take actions). Any card required for the action is played (face up) at this time. All details of the action are declared when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, etc. >As far as I understand things, the first thing that happens is I >replace the card to go back to my hand size. Then we have the "as it >is being played" window, which would for example let someone else play >Direct Intervention. Almost. >Now I'm guessing what happens next is that I show (but not *play*, >i.e. keep in my hand and remain at my current hand size) an equipment >or retainer card to all other players and declare that this is the >card that Jack of Both Sides is targeting? You cannot show the card. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=veknRules 4.4. Card Elevation and Disposition Players must keep their cards above the level of the playing surface. Revealing cards in your hand or uncontrolled area to any opponent is not allowed. >And then, having seen what card I am attempting to equip/employ, other >players (beginning with my predator) can commence block attempts. Not having seen it, no. But since you announced it when you played Jack, they know before they make their block decisions. >Is this correct? Almost. >We often have some confusion when this card is played >(it's usually me, I'm quite a fan of it) as far as what is put on the >table, what is replaced, when do I have to announce it, etc. For >example can someone wait until I declare what equipment/retainer card >is before they decide to Direct Intervention the Jack of Both Sides? Yes, indeed they must. >Does the equipment retainer card stay in my hand or go onto the table >while block attempts are being made / resolved? All cards except Jack of Both Sides stay in your hand. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com Your best online source for information about V:TES. Now also featuring individual card sales and sales of booster and starter box displays.

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:30:44 -0400, The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>Now I'm guessing what happens next is that I show (but not *play*, >>i.e. keep in my hand and remain at my current hand size) an equipment >>or retainer card to all other players and declare that this is the >>card that Jack of Both Sides is targeting? > >You cannot show the card. > >http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=veknRules > >4.4. Card Elevation and Disposition > >Players must keep their cards above the level of the playing surface. >Revealing cards in your hand or uncontrolled area to any opponent is >not allowed. What's the penalty associated with this? We have one specific player who when questioned, will show his hand or a specific card, to prove a point. At other times, he'll play with his hand forward far enough that it's visible to predator and/or prey. Repeated requests to not do so are accepted, but forgotten again after a game or two. Both instances have been ongoing for more than two years now, and while the former has been cut down to maybe once every 3 weeks (we play 1-2 games a week), the latter happens at least once a week. What's the solution? Morgan Vening

On Apr 19, 8:55 pm, Dasein <dasein2...@hotmail.com> wrote: > And then, having seen what card I am attempting to equip/employ, other > players (beginning with my predator) can commence block attempts. I assume that this is a typo and you meant "beginning with my prey," yes? John Eno

> Both instances have been ongoing for more than two years now, and > while the former has been cut down to maybe once every 3 weeks (we > play 1-2 games a week), the latter happens at least once a week. > > What's the solution? Castration? :P Or implement a house rule that everytime he does it, he gives 1 pool to his prey. After all, I assume that this is just during social play...? --> J grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com

In message <5f9g239vd5dfde7dh...@4ax.com>, Morgan Vening <mor...@optusnet.com.au> writes: >On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:30:44 -0400, The Lasombra ><TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>>Now I'm guessing what happens next is that I show (but not *play*, >>>i.e. keep in my hand and remain at my current hand size) an equipment >>>or retainer card to all other players and declare that this is the >>>card that Jack of Both Sides is targeting? >> >>You cannot show the card. >> >>http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=veknRules >> >>4.4. Card Elevation and Disposition >> >>Players must keep their cards above the level of the playing surface. >>Revealing cards in your hand or uncontrolled area to any opponent is >>not allowed. > >What's the penalty associated with this? We have one specific player >who when questioned, will show his hand or a specific card, to prove a >point. In order to enforce discipline and eschew disorder, the official recommendations for this are, in ascending order of seriousness: - satanic-blood orgy - exile - death - disqualification. More helpfully, in a judging situation, you have to decide whether the player was intentionally breaking the rules or not. Do they know the behavior is illegal? If it's an unintentional oversight, it falls most closely (IMO) to Procedural Error - Minor. "(C) A player repeatedly holds her cards below the table" seems pretty close. The penalty is a caution. Essentially, the player just gets told not to do it again, though the judge bears it in mind later. If it's intentional, or repeated (and since the player has been told about it, it's probably intentional then!), you'd need to upgrade the penalty. I'd be wary about going beyond a Warning. Correcting the game state... some people would just leave it as it is which provides a small amount of information to the table. Others would make the player discard the card, or shuffle it back into their library, or similar. If always done by a given judge, this might leave you with a situation where a player could use it as a "free" discard in a crunch spot, which wouldn't be great. However, it's a very simple resolution. <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/fbe8fd 987393a831> is an interesting thread. It starts from the assumption that the showing is unintentional/not cheating, but restoration of game state would be similar in both cases. Following some objections to judges meddling with people's hands, I make a suggestion in <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading- cards.jyhad/msg/f9eea9c6546ff365> where - if it matters to a current situation, such as seeing a Delaying Tactics during a vote - you could give a Methuselah a random decision which is hidden from the table temporarily, to restore doubt and uncertainty to a situation. Some people might like it, some people might not. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

On Apr 20, 2:55 am, Dasein <dasein2...@hotmail.com> wrote: > I have some questions regarding ordering the sequence of things that > occur when someone plays Jack of Both Sides. > > Say it is my turn, I tap one of my minions and announce to the table > (put the card down) that they are attempting the action "Jack of Both > Sides", at +2 stealth. > As far as I understand things, the first thing that happens is I > replace the card to go back to my hand size. Then we have the "as it > is being played" window, which would for example let someone else play > Direct Intervention. > Now I'm guessing what happens next is that I show (but not *play*, > i.e. keep in my hand and remain at my current hand size) an equipment > or retainer card to all other players and declare that this is the > card that Jack of Both Sides is targeting? Incorrect. Sequence of evenements is : - Announce wich minion plays which action card. - Announce the terms of the action card, if any (inferior / superior level, cards targetted for Sudario Refraction or Jack, ...) - You tap your minon when doing one of the 2 points above. - At that moment, any one could call ask for a check that the equipment / retainer you announced for your Jack is in your 6 card hand) - Wait for Direct Intervention. - Replace the action card. - Play any "As the action is announced" cards as you want. > And then, having seen what card I am attempting to equip/employ, other > players (beginning with my predator) can commence block attempts. > > Is this correct? No. First player having a block opportunity is your prey, and then your predator. > For > example can someone wait until I declare what equipment/retainer card > is before they decide to Direct Intervention the Jack of Both Sides? There's no time window before the terms declaration to play a Direct Intervention. > Does the equipment retainer card stay in my hand or go onto the table > while block attempts are being made / resolved? While the action is not succesful, the equipment / retainer remains in your hand. As a result of the succesful action, put the equipment / retainer on the minion. By the way, the "announce the target card / wait for direct intervention / replace card" is the same for Concealed Weapon.

[ quoted text not captured ] Correct, except that tapping comes after DI (that is, if the action card is DI'ed, the minion doesn't tap). >> And then, having seen what card I am attempting to equip/employ, other >> players (beginning with my predator) can commence block attempts. >> >> Is this correct? > > No. First player having a block opportunity is your prey, and then > your predator. Correct. >> For >> example can someone wait until I declare what equipment/retainer card >> is before they decide to Direct Intervention the Jack of Both Sides? > > There's no time window before the terms declaration to play a Direct > Intervention. > >> Does the equipment retainer card stay in my hand or go onto the table >> while block attempts are being made / resolved? > > While the action is not succesful, the equipment / retainer remains in > your hand. As a result of the succesful action, put the equipment / > retainer on the minion. > > By the way, the "announce the target card / wait for direct > intervention / replace card" is the same for Concealed Weapon. Correct.

Morgan Vening <mor...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in news:5f9g239vd5dfde7dh...@4ax.com: > On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:30:44 -0400, The Lasombra > <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>You cannot show the card. >> >>http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=veknRules >> >>4.4. Card Elevation and Disposition >> >>Players must keep their cards above the level of the playing surface. >>Revealing cards in your hand or uncontrolled area to any opponent is >>not allowed. > > What's the penalty associated with this? We have one specific player > who when questioned, will show his hand or a specific card, to prove a > point. > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/index.php?line=veknjudgesguide Check out section 110: Procedural Errors Basically, you run him up the ladder of penalties, starting with a Caution for the first minor infraction(I'd say playing with hand forward is a 111 Minor, deliberately showing a card illegally would be at least a 112 Major), and upgrading to a formal Warning and later Game Loss for subsequent infractions. When you get to the point where the next time it happens, you'll be issueing that Game Loss, let the player know beforehand. Also, if this would represent a shift in judging habits from prior events, its fair to announce the Judge's increased alertness to these kinds of infractions _before_ the tournament begins. > At other times, he'll play with his hand forward far enough that it's > visible to predator and/or prey. Repeated requests to not do so are > accepted, but forgotten again after a game or two. > > Both instances have been ongoing for more than two years now, and > while the former has been cut down to maybe once every 3 weeks (we > play 1-2 games a week), the latter happens at least once a week. > > What's the solution? > In casual play, its tough to prevent this kind of thing, other than perhaps by getting everyone's agreement to play by the VEKN tourney rules for the purposes of "training up" for tournament play. DZ AW > Morgan Vening