LSJ: Question about Derange

Howdy! At the German EC qualifier there was a very interesting and (nearly) game-deciding argument we had... One player played Derange on my Arika and turned her to Malkavian Antitribu claiming that with the change of clan she also loses her title and her votes. I argued that although she changed the *clan*, she didn't change the *sect* and therefore she is still the Inner Circle-member of the Camarilla she has always been and retains her votes. Judge Frank Moeller decided against me which I had to accept but was his decision correct? Does Derange nullify the affected vampire's title and his votes? Vampirically yours, Sascha

In message <3b66715c$0$25866$6e36...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>, Sascha Neumayr <sascha....@gmx.net> writes >One player played Derange on my Arika and turned her to Malkavian Antitribu >claiming that with the change of clan she also loses her title and her >votes. She changed clan and sect. > >I argued that although she changed the *clan*, she didn't change the *sect* >and therefore she is still the Inner Circle-member of the Camarilla she has >always been and retains her votes. Section 10. If a vampire changes clan to a clan that belongs to a difference sect, he changes sects as well. (Removing parenthetical text.) Standard template: If a vampire changes *clan*, they also change *sect*. (Derange, Clan Impersonation etc.) If a vampire changes *sect*, they only change sect. (Writ) >Judge Frank Moeller decided against me which I had to accept but was his >decision correct? Does Derange nullify the affected vampire's title and his >votes? Assuming that the vampire had a sect/clan specific title which is not compatible with Derange (!Malk, Sabbat), yes. e.g. Regina Giovanni is fine if Deranged, her votes and title are innate and not tied to her being Independent. e.g. Gratiano is fine if Deranged, since his votes are tied to his being Sabbat, not Lasombra. e.g. Gitane St Clair will suspend her title and votes if Deranged, since her votes are tied to her being Camarilla. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F HEY, MOM! I FOUND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET B457CA213D7E6 YOU WERE TELLING ME TO NOT TALK TO! 68C3695D623D5D

In message <9j9PlEkz...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> writes >If a vampire changes *sect*, they only change sect. > (Writ) Oh, also the new Assamite works here as well. I'd quite like to see a card that allows similar things for the Sabbat/Independent, or something. But I guess it's too late to get them anytime soon. Maybe they'd fit in Bloodlines, who knows. e.g. a vote Ostracism, P/J/IC, which makes a Camarilla vampire Independent. They'd work on a flavour level, for RPG purists, I guess, and they have a lot of potential for interesting combos/decks. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > > In message <3b66715c$0$25866$6e36...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>, > Sascha Neumayr <sascha....@gmx.net> writes > >One player played Derange on my Arika and turned her to Malkavian Antitribu > >claiming that with the change of clan she also loses her title and her > >votes. > > She changed clan and sect. Right. And with the change of sect, she lost the benefit of her title (including the votes it provides) until such time as she becomes Camarilla again. > > > >I argued that although she changed the *clan*, she didn't change the *sect* > >and therefore she is still the Inner Circle-member of the Camarilla she has > >always been and retains her votes. > > Section 10. > > If a vampire changes clan to a clan that belongs to a difference sect, > he changes sects as well. (Removing parenthetical text.) > > Standard template: > > If a vampire changes *clan*, they also change *sect*. > (Derange, Clan Impersonation etc.) > > If a vampire changes *sect*, they only change sect. > (Writ) Correct. > >Judge Frank Moeller decided against me which I had to accept but was his > >decision correct? Does Derange nullify the affected vampire's title and his > >votes? > > Assuming that the vampire had a sect/clan specific title which is not > compatible with Derange (!Malk, Sabbat), yes. Correct. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/