I have a question about Faceless Night (superior).
For example: acting minion is blocked, and he plays superior Faceless Night.
Is the blocker tapped NOW, or he can play intercept cards as normal (without
having to WAKE first) ?
Second question is about Wolf Claws and Claws of the Dead.
When are they played - before strikes are chosen, during choose strike phase
or during strike resolution phase ?
Third question is about Charnas the Imp. Is there any way of getting rid of
Charnas except burning the minion who has it, or making a bargain with
someone via Succubus Club ? Is it possible to transfer Charnas to another
minion (of the same controller) via Heidelburg Castle ?
I also have a opinion about errata of Thoughts Betrayed. I agree that the
card was too powerful and out-of-balance, but I think it was crippled too
hard. Now the opponent can maneuver, press, prevent damage, and even use
Wolf Claws/Claws of the Dead. I beleive they overdid it.
In article <8f5rg9$3gf$1...@as102.tel.hr>,
"Braddock" <ek-...@elektrokem.tel.hr> wrote:
> I have a question about Faceless Night (superior).
> For example: acting minion is blocked, and he plays superior Faceless
Night.
> Is the blocker tapped NOW, or he can play intercept cards as normal
(without
> having to WAKE first) ?
You can continue to play intercept and try to counter the stealth that
is being played with your intercept, but you are tapped regardless of
whether the block is successful or not.
> Second question is about Wolf Claws and Claws of the Dead.
> When are they played - before strikes are chosen, during choose strike
phase
> or during strike resolution phase ?
any of the above
> Third question is about Charnas the Imp. Is there any way of getting
rid of
> Charnas except burning the minion who has it, or making a bargain with
> someone via Succubus Club ? Is it possible to transfer Charnas to
another
> minion (of the same controller) via Heidelburg Castle ?
NO
> I also have a opinion about errata of Thoughts Betrayed. I agree that
the
> card was too powerful and out-of-balance, but I think it was crippled
too
> hard. Now the opponent can maneuver, press, prevent damage, and even
use
> Wolf Claws/Claws of the Dead. I beleive they overdid it.
Tough Cookies,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Braddock wrote:
>
> I have a question about Faceless Night (superior).
> For example: acting minion is blocked, and he plays superior Faceless Night.
> Is the blocker tapped NOW, or he can play intercept cards as normal (without
> having to WAKE first) ?
He can play intercept, etc.
He is not tapped he (or another minion) successfully blocks the action,
or his controller declines to block.
> Second question is about Wolf Claws and Claws of the Dead.
> When are they played - before strikes are chosen, during choose strike phase
> or during strike resolution phase ?
Any time before strike resolution.
Typically they are played after both minions have chosen their respective
strikes.
> Third question is about Charnas the Imp. Is there any way of getting rid of
> Charnas except burning the minion who has it, or making a bargain with
> someone via Succubus Club ? Is it possible to transfer Charnas to another
> minion (of the same controller) via Heidelburg Castle ?
Yes. You could also get rid of him through contesting, or by taking a
Cryptic Mission against him.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
>> "Braddock" <ek-...@elektrokem.tel.hr> wrote:
>> I have a question about Faceless Night (superior). For example:
>> acting minion is blocked, and he plays superior Faceless Night.
>> Is the blocker tapped NOW, or he can play intercept cards as
>> normal (without having to WAKE first)?>> X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
> You can continue to play intercept and try to counter the
> stealth that is being played with your intercept, but you are
> tapped regardless of whether the block is successful or not.
Point of note: The blocking minion is tapped (regardless of whether the
block was successful) after the action is resolved.
>> Second question is about Wolf Claws and Claws of the Dead. When
>> are they played - before strikes are chosen, during choose strike
>> phase or during strike resolution phase ?>> any of the above
Incorrect. Cards that modify a strike (i.e., Wolf's Claws and ammo
cards) must be played _before_ the strike resolution phase. For
example, you can't wait to see if you opponent will prevent the damage,
but you can wait to see if they will play a S:CE card.
>> Third question is about Charnas the Imp. Is there any way of
>> getting rid of Charnas except burning the minion who has it,
>> or making a bargain with someone via Succubus Club ? Is it'
>> possible to transfer Charnas to another minion (of the same
>> controller) via Heidelburg Castle?>> NO
Incorrect.
You may use Heidelburg Castle to transfer retainers between two vampires
you control. There is no stipulation that you must control the
retainers being transferred.
Succubus Club allows you to trade cards that are in play. However,
since the person that placed Charnas on your minion is the one that
controls it, I'm fairly certain that you cannot trade Charnas or any
other card that you do not control (i.e., Haven Uncovered).
Another option is Cryptic Mission. Charnas cannot be harmed by the
minion he is on, but he may be harmed by one of your other minions.
Since Cryptic Mission's text does not specifically restrict the target
to other players and the rule in the new rule book:
As a convenience, when a card describes an action that is typically
directed at another Methuselah, the card's text will usually include an
encircled D as a reminder that the action is typically directed.
...does not specifically restrict cards with a (D) to other players,
Cryptic Mission, or any other card that damages, destroys or otherwise
affects retainers, can be directed at Charnas.
>> I also have a opinion about errata of Thoughts Betrayed. I agree
>> that the card was too powerful and out-of-balance, but I think it
>> was crippled too hard. Now the opponent can maneuver, press,
>> prevent damage, and even use Wolf Claws/Claws of the Dead. I
>> beleive they overdid it.>> Tough Cookies.
Hrm. Not the wording I would have chosen. Of course you are welcome to
your opinion, but you are widely disagreed with. Both the VEKN and the
NJL have adopted this ruling.
Noal McDonald
Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI
National Jyahd League
--
"What you cannot enforce, do not command."
-- Socrates
[ quoted text not captured ]
>> Third question is about Charnas the Imp. Is there any way of
>> getting rid of Charnas except burning the minion who has it,
>> or making a bargain with someone via Succubus Club ? Is it
>> possible to transfer Charnas to another minion (of the same>> controller) via Heidelburg Castle ?>
> Yes. You could also get rid of him through contesting, or by taking a
> Cryptic Mission against him.> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Scott, I would expect that you couldn't trade cards that you do not
control. Since Charnas is controlled by the player that put in on your
minion, I would think that you could no more trade it than you could
trade Haven Uncovered.
Noal
[ quoted text not captured ]
Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> [LSJ wrote:]
> >[Citation lost wrote:]> >> Third question is about Charnas the Imp. Is there any way of
> >> getting rid of Charnas except burning the minion who has it,
> >> or making a bargain with someone via Succubus Club ? Is it
> >> possible to transfer Charnas to another minion (of the same
> >> controller) via Heidelburg Castle ?
> >
> > Yes. You could also get rid of him through contesting, or by taking
a
> > Cryptic Mission against him.
> > LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
>
> Scott, I would expect that you couldn't trade cards that you do not
> control.
You cannot.
> Since Charnas is controlled by the player that put in on your
> minion, I would think that you could no more trade it than you could
> trade Haven Uncovered.
Minion cards (like Charnas) are controlled by the controller of
the minion they are on, by default (unlike Master cards like
Haven Uncovered).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/[ quoted text not captured ]
d.
>
> >> Second question is about Wolf Claws and Claws of the Dead. When
> >> are they played - before strikes are chosen, during choose strike
> >> phase or during strike resolution phase ?
> >
> > any of the above
>
> Incorrect. Cards that modify a strike (i.e., Wolf's Claws and ammo
> cards) must be played _before_ the strike resolution phase. For
> example, you can't wait to see if you opponent will prevent the
damage,
> but you can wait to see if they will play a S:CE card.
As I understood it, damage prevention happens during damage resolution
not strike resolution. So once someone played a non-dodge, non-S:CE
strike then you could play wolf claws/ claws of the dead. The strike now
resolve, so you can play it, but damage has not resolved yet so no
damage prevention is played.
> >> Third question is about Charnas the Imp. Is there any way of
> >> getting rid of Charnas except burning the minion who has it,
> >> or making a bargain with someone via Succubus Club ? Is it'
> >> possible to transfer Charnas to another minion (of the same> >> controller) via Heidelburg Castle?
> >
> > NO
>
> Incorrect.
>
> You may use Heidelburg Castle to transfer retainers between two
vampires
> you control. There is no stipulation that you must control the
> retainers being transferred.
It was my understanding that you could not move Charnas as you do not
control him, but if you can quote a ruling on it, I will be happy to go
along with it.
> Succubus Club allows you to trade cards that are in play. However,
> since the person that placed Charnas on your minion is the one that
> controls it, I'm fairly certain that you cannot trade Charnas or any
> other card that you do not control (i.e., Haven Uncovered).
You cannot use the succubus club to trade Charnas, but the controller
of Charnas could trade control of him. This would not move charnas, but
merely change control of him. His effect would be the same even if you
controlled Charnas and he was on a vampire you controlled.
> Another option is Cryptic Mission. Charnas cannot be harmed by the
> minion he is on, but he may be harmed by one of your other minions.
> Since Cryptic Mission's text does not specifically restrict the target
> to other players and the rule in the new rule book:
Yes, you can kill charnas, I don't think that was in dispute
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
[ quoted text not captured ]
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:>> Scott, I would expect that you couldn't trade cards that you do not
>> control.>
> You cannot.
>> Minion cards (like Charnas) are controlled by the controller of
> the minion they are on, by default (unlike Master cards like
> Haven Uncovered).
Hrm. I thought I remembered that Charnas had been ruled to be
controlled by the player that placed it on the current minion, or
something to that effect. However, I see over the last year, that is
exactly contrary to what you've said. *nods* The current ruling is much
better, anyway.
Thanks,
Noal
--
"What you cannot enforce, do not command."
-- Socrates
[ quoted text not captured ]
>> Incorrect. Cards that modify a strike (i.e., Wolf's Claws and ammo
>> cards) must be played _before_ the strike resolution phase. For
>> example, you can't wait to see if you opponent will prevent the
>> damage, but you can wait to see if they will play a S:CE card.>
> As I understood it, damage prevention happens during damage
> resolution not strike resolution.
Damage resolution happens at the time that the strike (or other source)
resolves and is not a separate phase. Damage resoluton of Weather
Control, for example, happens before range is determined. Damage
resolution from strikes happens during strike resolution.
> So once someone played a non-dodge, non-S:CE strike then you could
> play wolf claws/ claws of the dead.
Correct. You can use it after they have declared their strike, but
before it has resolved. This still leaves open the opportunity to play
cards that, like Rotschreck, are played and resolved before strike
resolution.
> The strike now resolve, so you can play it, but damage has not
> resolved yet so no damage prevention is played.
Wrong. Strike modification cards _must_ be played before the strike
resolution phase:
Ammo (Dragon's Breath Rounds, Glaser Rounds, Manstopper Rounds) are
played "before resolution of a gun's strike", not "when damage from a
gun is being resolved". That is, it is played after the strike is
announced, but before the strike resolution phase. [RTR 19990105]
The damage modifier must be played before the end of the Choose Strike
phase in order to affect the current strike. [RTR 19960112]
>> You may use Heidelburg Castle to transfer retainers between two
>> vampires you control. There is no stipulation that you must
>> control the retainers being transferred.>
> It was my understanding that you could not move Charnas as you do
> not control him, but if you can quote a ruling on it, I will be
> happy to go along with it.
>> You cannot use the succubus club to trade Charnas, but the
> controller of Charnas could trade control of him. This would
> not move charnas, but merely change control of him. His effect
> would be the same even if you controlled Charnas and he was on
> a vampire you controlled.
You control all minion cards on your minions, including Charnas. He can
be traded or moved as any other minion. I refer you to LSJ's posts in
this thread.
Noal McDonald
NJL Rules Team member
[ quoted text not captured ]
>
> You control all minion cards on your minions, including Charnas. He
can
> be traded or moved as any other minion. I refer you to LSJ's posts in
> this thread.
It appears to me that you were arguing the exact same thing I was until
LSJ corrected you this morning.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
[ quoted text not captured ]
Concerning Thoughts Betrayed.
Revised Thoughts Betrayed still costs 2 blood to play, and the effect is
almost the same as for Immortal Grapple which is free. That's my point - the
card was out of balance before the errata, and is out of balance after the
errata.
Noal McDonald wrote in message <8f6ghu$49k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>> I also have a opinion about errata of Thoughts Betrayed. I agree
>>> that the card was too powerful and out-of-balance, but I think it
>>> was crippled too hard. Now the opponent can maneuver, press,
>>> prevent damage, and even use Wolf Claws/Claws of the Dead. I
>>> beleive they overdid it.>>
>> Tough Cookies.>
>Hrm. Not the wording I would have chosen. Of course you are welcome to
>your opinion, but you are widely disagreed with. Both the VEKN and the
>NJL have adopted this ruling.
>
>Noal McDonald
>Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI
>National Jyahd League>--
>"What you cannot enforce, do not command."
>-- Socrates
>
>[ quoted text not captured ]
On Tue, 9 May 2000, Braddock wrote:
> Revised Thoughts Betrayed still costs 2 blood to play, and the effect is
> almost the same as for Immortal Grapple which is free. That's my point - the
> card was out of balance before the errata, and is out of balance after the
> errata.
Immortal Grapple is in a combat discipline.
Thoughts Betrayed is not.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"But I don't have the right to be with you tonight, so please leave me
alone with no saviour in sight. I will sleep safe and sound with nobody
around me."
>> Revised Thoughts Betrayed still costs 2 blood to play, and the
>> effect is almost the same as for Immortal Grapple which is free.
>> That's my point - the card was out of balance before the errata,
>> and is out of balance after the errata.>
> Immortal Grapple is in a combat discipline.
> Thoughts Betrayed is not.
Not to mention that Thoughts Betrayed prevents the playing of all strike
cards by your opponent for the duration of combat, while imposing no
such limitation on yourself. IG limits both minions to hand strikes and
it only lasts (per errata) one round. Thoughts Betrayed gives you
sufficient bang for your buck.
Noal
[ quoted text not captured ]
OK I see your point but, for example, Fast Reaction costs no pool and is
also from a non-combat discipline (Auspex). You could say that Fast Reaction
is not a combat card which is, of course, true but usage of this card is
obviously intended for combat-oriented decks to counter strike: combat ends
cards.
In my opinion, creators of the game tried to take roleplaying rules as a
guideline for cost of playing certain cards, and did not make any
combat/non-combat distinction.
For example, in Vampire TM roleplaying rules cost for most Obfuscate powers
is 0 blood, while cost for all Protean powers is at least 1 blood, therefore
Lost in Crowds costs 0 blood while Earth Control costs 1 blood although
their effect is exactly the same (+1 / +2 stealth). Furthermore, Dominate
and Potence are both disciplines that don't require any blood expenditure
(in roleplaying, of course).
So, if my thinking is correct (I'm not saying that it is, this is just my
guess) both Thoughts Betrayed and Immortal Grapple should cost the same
amount of blood to play (0 or 2 or 1 - it doesn't really matter).
On the other hand it is true that almost all Potence cards are combat
oriented while Dominate cards really vary a lot in their usage, so I think
that this is where the balance has already been established.
James Coupe wrote in message ...
>On Tue, 9 May 2000, Braddock wrote:>> Revised Thoughts Betrayed still costs 2 blood to play, and the effect is
>> almost the same as for Immortal Grapple which is free. That's my point -
the
>> card was out of balance before the errata, and is out of balance after
the
>> errata.>
>Immortal Grapple is in a combat discipline.
>
>Thoughts Betrayed is not.
>[ quoted text not captured ]
On Tue, 9 May 2000, Braddock wrote:
> OK I see your point but, for example, Fast Reaction costs no pool and is
> also from a non-combat discipline (Auspex). You could say that Fast Reaction
> is not a combat card which is, of course, true but usage of this card is
> obviously intended for combat-oriented decks to counter strike: combat ends
> cards.
Fast Reaction already has a very great cost - the need to block a vampire
already, and then use a second. Very expensive with resources.
> So, if my thinking is correct (I'm not saying that it is, this is just my
> guess) both Thoughts Betrayed and Immortal Grapple should cost the same
> amount of blood to play (0 or 2 or 1 - it doesn't really matter).
I fail to see this one. Obfuscate is a stealth based discipline, hence
its cards are free. Protean is not, hence its stealth cards have a cost.
Potence has a combat discipline, hence many of its cards are
free. Dominate is not a combat discipline, hence its combat card is
not. Also, TB has a considerably larger affect than IG - you cannot play
Undead Strength under a TB, for example, nor scorpion sting etc.
[ quoted text not captured ]
<snip>
>
> > Third question is about Charnas the Imp. Is there any way of getting
> rid of
> > Charnas except burning the minion who has it, or making a bargain with
> > someone via Succubus Club ? Is it possible to transfer Charnas to
> another
> > minion (of the same controller) via Heidelburg Castle ?
>
> NO
>
Cryptic Mission or Mariel, Lady Thunder's combat ends ability would kill the
Imp. Sensory Deprivation's minor ability would burn him outright. Far
Mastery or Lure of the Serpent would move him.
I believe Heidelburg castle will also work since the controller of Charnas
is considered to be the controller of the minion he is on. You could also
feed him to a War Ghoul. If you can use Virgil's ability against retainers
you control, that would work as well.