Bleed Action, Attempt to Block, Modifier Played ... What Now?

Greetings, don't know if this is a corner case, interesting situation, or pretty common, however it came up during a social game and I ruled it one way at the time, however I would like clarification/correction if available. Vampire A is bleeding, current bleed is for 2. Vampire B attempts to block and is successful because Vampire A has no stealth. Vampire A plays a bleed modifier hoping to cycle into stealth, bleed modified by 2 for a total of 2. Stealth is not top decked thus bleed is still blocked. Can Vampire B's controller play Archon Investgation since Vampire A is attempting to bleed for more than 3 or must the block be acted upon? Thanks In Advance, David

quetzalcoatl wrote: > Can Vampire B's controller play Archon Investgation since Vampire A is > attempting to bleed for more than 3 or must the block be acted upon? I'd figure that the block is not successful till your opponent is done playing action modifiers--i.e. he comes to bleed, you try and block, he modifies hoping to top deck means that you haven't actually blocked yet (as after he modifies up the bleed, you could still play a Deflection). Given that him playing modifers means (moreor less) that the action isn't blocked yet, I'd figure you could still AI. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot, easily spilled liquids to naked people." -Brittni Meil

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Peter D Bakija wrote: | quetzalcoatl wrote: | |>Can Vampire B's controller play Archon Investgation since Vampire A is |>attempting to bleed for more than 3 or must the block be acted upon? | | I'd figure that the block is not successful till your opponent is done | playing action modifiers--i.e. he comes to bleed, you try and block, he | modifies hoping to top deck means that you haven't actually blocked yet (as | after he modifies up the bleed, you could still play a Deflection). | | Given that him playing modifers means (moreor less) that the action isn't | blocked yet, I'd figure you could still AI. I suspect you could AI him no matter what. Card text: "Only usable when a minion is attempting to bleed you for more than 3. The action is not successful. Burn the acting minion." The action hasn't ended just because a block happens and combat is begun. The minion is still attempting the action -- it's only when the action is over that he's no longer attempting. (Otherwise Form of Mist doesn't work.) - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFCfOxytQZlu3o7QpERAr1zAJ92esGH6q0+wTtT4u6/vZk3IwVRHQCcDA9I RgzsZERW0wOsk756mhMR+jk= =scL/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[ quoted text not captured ] ...and combat is begun. Does this imply if you draw up an Archon Investigation during the ensuing combat that you can play it then and still burn the acting minion? Or has the "attempting to bleed you" worn off once the block was successful? Jeff

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jeff...@pacbell.net wrote: | Derek Ray wrote: | ~ > Does this imply if you draw up an Archon Investigation during the | ensuing combat that you can play it then and still burn the acting | minion? Or has the "attempting to bleed you" worn off once the block | was successful? Complex questions, huh? :) Actually, it all boils down to a simple question: Is a bleeding minion who is in the middle of combat still attempting to bleed you, or is this now an unsuccessful action that has simply not ended yet? - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFCfPRNtQZlu3o7QpERAhD1AJ0Qpfp5LdX97MpuYTFlsV+OliuMZwCeN+4q PdlY4jGbmjm0DbgA4V1XQ20= =Zn4a -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Derek Ray wrote: > I suspect you could AI him no matter what. Card text: > > "Only usable when a minion is attempting to bleed you for more than 3. > The action is not successful. Burn the acting minion." > > The action hasn't ended just because a block happens and combat is > begun. The minion is still attempting the action -- it's only when the > action is over that he's no longer attempting. (Otherwise Form of Mist > doesn't work.) Oh, yeah--even better logic than mine. Solid. [ quoted text not captured ]

quetzalcoatl wrote: > Greetings, > > don't know if this is a corner case, interesting situation, or pretty > common, however it came up during a social game and I ruled it one way > at the time, however I would like clarification/correction if > available. > > Vampire A is bleeding, current bleed is for 2. > Vampire B attempts to block and is successful because Vampire A has no > stealth. > > Vampire A plays a bleed modifier hoping to cycle into stealth, bleed > modified by 2 for a total of 2. Stealth is not top decked thus bleed is > still blocked. ... is *now* blocked, by decree of the acting minion (who, by declining to play any more effects to avoid the block, causes the block to be considered successful and moves the action to resolution). > Can Vampire B's controller play Archon Investgation since Vampire A is > attempting to bleed for more than 3 or must the block be acted upon? No. You can't play AI during resolution (see also Spying Mission vs. AI). -- LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > > > > Vampire A plays a bleed modifier hoping to cycle into stealth, bleed > > modified by 2 for a total of 2. Stealth is not top decked thus bleed is > > still blocked. > > ... is *now* blocked, by decree of the acting minion (who, by declining > to play any more effects to avoid the block, causes the block to be > considered successful and moves the action to resolution). > If vampire A's controller has the opportunity to play effects before the block resolves (and he'd have to, otherwise he can't stealth through), doesn't vampire B's controller also have that opportunity? And then once both have "passed" the action moves to resolution?

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> schreef in bericht news:1115512588.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] No. Player A declining to play more effects, causes the block to be successful. Player cannot back out of blocking and play an effect instead. Similarly, you cannot attempt to block, succeed in doing, and play deflection instead. Declaring the block attempt is, in effect, a 'reaction card' that must be resolved before you can play other effects, like AI. Otherwise, you would be able to play the AI during the resulting combat. AI is only playable when you're about to remove more than 3 pool from your total.

Izaak wrote: > "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> schreef in bericht >>LSJ wrote: >>>... is *now* blocked, by decree of the acting minion (who, by >> >>declining >> >>>to play any more effects to avoid the block, causes the block to be >>>considered successful and moves the action to resolution). >> >>If vampire A's controller has the opportunity to play effects before >>the block resolves (and he'd have to, otherwise he can't stealth >>through), doesn't vampire B's controller also have that opportunity? >>And then once both have "passed" the action moves to resolution? > > No. Player A declining to play more effects, causes the block to be > successful. Player cannot back out of blocking and play an effect > instead. Correct. > Similarly, you cannot attempt to block, succeed in doing, and play > deflection instead. Declaring the block attempt is, in effect, a > 'reaction card' that must be resolved before you can play other effects, > like AI. Otherwise, you would be able to play the AI during the > resulting combat. Correct. > AI is only playable when you're about to remove more than 3 pool from > your total. No. AI is only playable before resolution -- before you're about to remove the pool (or before the unsuccessful resolution (block combat)). [ quoted text not captured ]

So just to make this clear ... If someone declares to block, they must go through with that block no matter what cards are played by the acting vampire as long as it is not stealth that bypasses the blocking minion's intercept. Is that correct? David

[ quoted text not captured ] Or unless the card gives the blocker an ability to back out -- eg, inferior Dawn Operation. But yes. This is how Aching Beauty / Mask of 1000 Faces decks work. --Colin McGuigan

Great .. so I ruled correctly ... that makes me feel better. Actually the Aching Beauty/Mask deck doesn't work. LSJ has stated that one aching beauty does not equal another aching beauty thus two Toreadors with Aching Beauty and Obfuscate cannot Mask for each other thus causing 2 pool to be burnt on a block. This is because each vampire cannot use the Aching Beauty on the other vampire. David

"quetzalcoatl" <da...@vega.id.au> schreef in bericht news:1115612242.2...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] but one toreador with 2 (or more) Aching Beauty can mask after a tor without Aching Beauty has been blocked. That way, the decks works better, IMO.

[ quoted text not captured ] No no no... you have Francois with two (or more) ABs, who Masks over if any of the other minion's actions are blocked. The blockee cannot back out, and must take the 2 (or more) pool damage. --Colin McGuigan

"Colin McGuigan" <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> schreef in bericht news:IKudnd1IOaQ...@speakeasy.net... [ quoted text not captured ] or: presence weenie bleeds, gets blocked Joaquin Murietta (with 2or more AB and an optional skill card qui): mask, AB kicks in and he can play Thin Blood + Crocodile's tongue to add insult to injury. pity he doesn't have superior pres or he could use superior Majesty (as his inbuilt additional strike) to untap and be ready to play another mask. lotsa moving parts, of course :)

Jeroen Rombouts wrote: > presence weenie bleeds, gets blocked > Joaquin Murietta (with 2or more AB and an optional skill card qui): mask, AB > kicks in and he can play Thin Blood + Crocodile's tongue... Crocodile's Tongue can only be played before a block is successful. Aching Beauty only takes effect after a block is successful. The two do not mix well: you're basically giving the blocker a chance to avoid taking the pool damage of AB by declining to pay the blood cost of CT. Aching Beauty + Change of Target works much better. Or Aching Beauty + Majesty, as you mentioned.

"Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht news:1115656070....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > Jeroen Rombouts wrote: >> presence weenie bleeds, gets blocked >> Joaquin Murietta (with 2or more AB and an optional skill card qui): > mask, AB >> kicks in and he can play Thin Blood + Crocodile's tongue... > > Crocodile's Tongue can only be played before a block is successful. > Aching Beauty only takes effect after a block is successful. oops. brain flatulence...

On 9 May 2005 09:27:50 -0700, "Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Of course, if the combo has less cards and achives the same core result (pool loss), its better. But still, I found the idea of Murietta's Aching Beauty interesting. Combining pool loss with blood loss or even torpor (maybe using some guns) is nice. Minions losing blood means less pool for my prey to regain via Minion Tap or Dolls. Maybe I'll try to figure out something. best, Fabio "Sooner" Macedo V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil Giovanni Newsletter Editor ----------------------------------------------------- V for Vendetta on the big screen! http://vforvendetta.warnerbros.com/

Fabio Sooner Macedo wrote: > I found the idea of Murietta's Aching Beauty interesting. I prefer to put it on Francois because of his built-in steal blood action. He always has something worthwhile to do after he plays Change of Target or Majesty. He's also a Prince with +1 bleed. It's hard to go wrong with Francois.