I was playing with my friends last night when one of them brought up
that you're supposed to keep a constant hand size of 7. Is this true?
We must have passed over it in the rules. We always played that you
can discard 1 card at the end of your turn and then draw up to 7. But
now my friend says whenever you play a card you replace it. Is this
only in combat, or in all situations? And secondly, when a card says
Prince/Justicar +1 stealth at the top, like the traditions and archon,
does that mean only princes and justicars can play them, or that only
princes and justicars get +1 stealth? Thanks for all replies.
-Dave
sull...@telerama.lm.com (Dave Sullivan) writes;
>I was playing with my friends last night when one of them brought up
>that you're supposed to keep a constant hand size of 7. Is this true?
>We must have passed over it in the rules. We always played that you
>can discard 1 card at the end of your turn and then draw up to 7. But
>now my friend says whenever you play a card you replace it. Is this
>only in combat, or in all situations?
It's true in all situations, except during a vote [then you replace when
the vote is completed], and with cards that say "Do not replace until end
of combat" which means do not replace until the action is completely
resolved.
>And secondly, when a card says
>Prince/Justicar +1 stealth at the top, like the traditions and archon,
>does that mean only princes and justicars can play them, or that only
>princes and justicars get +1 stealth?
Only a Prince or Justicar may use the card.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
In article <3mcu4q$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
>sull...@telerama.lm.com (Dave Sullivan) writes;>It's true in all situations, except during a vote [then you replace when
>the vote is completed], and with cards that say "Do not replace until end
>of combat" which means do not replace until the action is completely
>resolved.
last time i checked, the political action card used to call the vote
was replaced immediately, just like any other card; it's p. a.'s that
one discards from the hand for votes that are not replaced until the end
of the vote.
confirmation on this, anyone?
heckler
--
"A global village is NOT supposed to be an anarchic tyranny of the
discourteous!"
pers...@athena.mit.edu, vox clamans
In article <3md3fj$4...@nunki.usc.edu>, pech...@nunki.usc.edu (gomi no
sensei) wrote:
> last time i checked, the political action card used to call the vote
> was replaced immediately, just like any other card; it's p. a.'s that
> one discards from the hand for votes that are not replaced until the end
> of the vote.
That was my understanding as well. In addition, any action modifiers
played before a block is attempted should be replaced as well, although if
voting has already started, the might not be. For example, I call a vote,
and play a bribes along with it before anyone attempts to block, I should
get to replace the bribes before the voting starts. The same with
additional stealth cards. But, if I played a telepathic vote counting
after the block was beaten and the voting had started, would I get to
replace that card?
Just some thoughts on the matter.
stephen
gomi no sensei (pech...@nunki.usc.edu) wrote:
: In article <3mcu4q$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,: CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
: >sull...@telerama.lm.com (Dave Sullivan) writes;: >It's true in all situations, except during a vote [then you replace when
: >the vote is completed], and with cards that say "Do not replace until end
: >of combat" which means do not replace until the action is completely
: >resolved.: last time i checked, the political action card used to call the vote: was replaced immediately, just like any other card; it's p. a.'s that
: one discards from the hand for votes that are not replaced until the end
: of the vote.: confirmation on this, anyone?: heckler
: --
: "A global village is NOT supposed to be an anarchic tyranny of the
: discourteous!"
: pers...@athena.mit.edu, vox clamans
That is correct. The vote card being called IS replaced, but not any
votes burnt thereafter to gain votes. Also, cards like "scorn of
adonis," "elder kindred network," "bewitching oration," and "dread gaze"
are all replaced as soon as they are played, as these are NOT vote cards
being burnt to gain a vote.
Erik
pech...@nunki.usc.edu (gomi no sensei)
>CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
re replacing cards:
>>It's true in all situations, except during a vote [then you replace when
>>the vote is completed], and with cards that say "Do not replace until
end
>>of combat" which means do not replace until the action is completely
>>resolved.>last time i checked, the political action card used to call the vote
>was replaced immediately, just like any other card; it's p. a.'s that
>one discards from the hand for votes that are not replaced until the end
>of the vote.
That's correct, but the vote is not called until the political action (the
one caused by the original vote card) goes through unblocked. While it's
still just a political action, you can still replace thrown cards.
Although I wouldn't be surprised if they errata this, the + vote cards say
"only usable during a political action" and thus can be thrown after the
political action is begun but prior to the vote actually getting called.
Such a use would get them replaced. I believe if you wait until the vote
has started to throw them, you can't replace them.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
gomi no sensei (pech...@nunki.usc.edu) wrote:
: In article <3mcu4q$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
: CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
: >sull...@telerama.lm.com (Dave Sullivan) writes;: >It's true in all situations, except during a vote [then you replace when: >the vote is completed], and with cards that say "Do not replace until end
: >of combat" which means do not replace until the action is completely
: >resolved.: last time i checked, the political action card used to call the vote
: was replaced immediately, just like any other card; it's p. a.'s that
: one discards from the hand for votes that are not replaced until the end
: of the vote.: confirmation on this, anyone?
Consider it confirmed...
Larrx...
[ quoted text not captured ]> That is correct. The vote card being called IS replaced, but not any
> votes burnt thereafter to gain votes. Also, cards like "scorn of
> adonis," "elder kindred network," "bewitching oration," and "dread gaze"
> are all replaced as soon as they are played, as these are NOT vote cards
> being burnt to gain a vote.
Peace Erik,
I believe that you are wrong on this one. No cards are replaced, once a vote
is successfully called, until that vote is finished. You may not replace cards
like Bewitching Oration & Dread Gaze.
Nil carborundum illigitimi,
James R. McClure Jr.
The OS/2 Apostle
<insert disclaimer here>
In article <3md3fj$4...@nunki.usc.edu>,
gomi no sensei <pech...@nunki.usc.edu> wrote:
>last time i checked, the political action card used to call the vote
>was replaced immediately, just like any other card; it's p. a.'s that
>one discards from the hand for votes that are not replaced until the end
>of the vote.
>>confirmation on this, anyone?
Political action cards and any cards used to modify the action
are replaced as soon as they are played (remember that you can use drawn
cards to continue to modify the action). Once the action goes to a
referendum, no cards can be replaced until the process is over. This
includes playing cards like Political Backlash (DTR) that must be played
immediately after voting finishes.
After that, you replentish to 7 and keep going...
| If you've got a hot lead on a new | *--Joe--*
| PC game, call the announce line at | js...@vt.edu
| ** csi...@discus.ise.vt.edu ** |
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------
"Carnivores, oy!" -- Timon, TLK
James R. McClure Jr. (jrmc...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu) wrote:
: epr...@titan.oit.umass.edu (Erik Price (trainee)) wrote:: > That is correct. The vote card being called IS replaced, but not any: > votes burnt thereafter to gain votes. Also, cards like "scorn of
: > adonis," "elder kindred network," "bewitching oration," and "dread gaze": > are all replaced as soon as they are played, as these are NOT vote cards: > being burnt to gain a vote.: Peace Erik,: I believe that you are wrong on this one. No cards are replaced, once a vote
: is successfully called, until that vote is finished. You may not replace cards
: like Bewitching Oration & Dread Gaze.
You're right, I *may* be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I'm right.
Allow me to quote from the book.
"Additional political cards can also be used by any of the other
Methuselahs for votes. The actual effects of these cards are ignored.
Cards used in this way are discarded to the ash heap and not replaced
until the voting is finished."
(Jyhad Rulebook, c. 1994)
Now if we carefully examine the sentence above, we will notice that it is
referring to "political cards." Political cards are specifically cards
which say "Political Card." All votes, for instance, do. Bewitching
Oration and Dread Gaze are not political cards, they are Discipline
cards.
I could be totally wrong, but I think this is the case and this is how we
play.
Erik
Erik Price (trainee) (epr...@titan.oit.umass.edu) wrote:
: James R. McClure Jr. (jrmc...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu) wrote:: : Peace Erik,: : I believe that you are wrong on this one. No cards are replaced,
: : once a vote
: : is successfully called, until that vote is finished. You may not
: : replace cards like Bewitching Oration & Dread Gaze.: You're right, I *may* be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I'm right.
: Allow me to quote from the book.: "Additional political cards can also be used by any of the other
: Methuselahs for votes. The actual effects of these cards are ignored.
: Cards used in this way are discarded to the ash heap and not replaced
: until the voting is finished.": (Jyhad Rulebook, c. 1994): Now if we carefully examine the sentence above, we will notice that it is
: referring to "political cards." Political cards are specifically cards
: which say "Political Card." All votes, for instance, do. Bewitching
: Oration and Dread Gaze are not political cards, they are Discipline
: cards.
Eric:
Your quote is correct, your logic is correct, but WotC still says that
you are wrong.
When L. Scott and I were working on the final drafts of the Complete
Jyhad Rules Guide, I pointed this out to him, and we included in the
rules for Referendums that it was played as you said.
These rules were then sent off to Tom Wylie for official approval, and he
sent them back saying that this part of the document we sent him was
incorrect; official ruling is that once the Referendum starts, _no_ cards
are replaced until it is over.
If you ask Scott real nice, he could probably send you a copy of the
letter Tom sent us; he usually keeps things like this.
Shane Travis | Natives who beat drums to drive off evil spirits
sht...@duke.usask.ca | are objects of scorn to Americans who blow horns
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | to break up traffic jams.
| -- Mary Ellen Kelly
Stephen Beaulieu (hi...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
: pech...@nunki.usc.edu (gomi no sensei) wrote:
: > last time i checked, the political action card used to call the vote
: > was replaced immediately, just like any other card; it's p. a.'s that
: > one discards from the hand for votes that are not replaced until the end
: > of the vote.: That was my understanding as well. In addition, any action modifiers: played before a block is attempted should be replaced as well, although if
: voting has already started, the might not be. For example, I call a vote,
: and play a bribes along with it before anyone attempts to block, I should
: get to replace the bribes before the voting starts. The same with
: additional stealth cards.
Additional stealth cards: yes. They are needed to get the action card
successfully played and are thus replaced before the referendum starts.
Bribes: no. Says right on the card; "Only usable during a political
action before votes are cast."
There is no political action until the Political Action card is
successfully played (i.e. not successfully blocked) - after that point,
the PA is in full swing and no cards are replaced.
[ quoted text not captured ]
CurtAdams (curt...@aol.com) wrote:
: Although I wouldn't be surprised if they errata this, the + vote cards say
: "only usable during a political action" and thus can be thrown after the: political action is begun but prior to the vote actually getting called.
: Such a use would get them replaced. I believe if you wait until the vote
: has started to throw them, you can't replace them.
I'm afraid that I don't see where in the timing there is any instant
where these cards can be legally played (_during_ a political action) but
before the Referendum is called. Selected quotations:
"When a card is played as an action... a [referendum] is called."
"Political actions can be blocked as any other action can, but must be
blocked before the terms of the vote are set; otherwise, voting begins."
Is _this_ the time you are talking about? After it has been successfully
played, but before the terms are set? I always saw the successful play
(starting the actual Political Action) and the beginning of the
referendum as simultaneous events.
Interesting, HIGHLY MUNCHKINISH, RULES ABUSIVE note: nowhere in the rules
does it say (TTBOMK) _when_ the terms of the vote have to be set.
Nothing stops me then from playing a Kine Resources Contested and
_imediately_ saying, "Three to my prey and one to my grand-prey". Since
the terms of the vote are now set, according to the rule quoted above,
the action may no longer be blocked...
You try this in my house and I'll break your arm. :-)
[ quoted text not captured ]
hi...@mail.utexas.edu (Stephen Beaulieu) writes:
>In article <3md3fj$4...@nunki.usc.edu>, pech...@nunki.usc.edu (gomi no>sensei) wrote:>> last time i checked, the political action card used to call the vote
>> was replaced immediately, just like any other card; it's p. a.'s that
>> one discards from the hand for votes that are not replaced until the end
>> of the vote.>That was my understanding as well. In addition, any action modifiers
>played before a block is attempted should be replaced as well, although if
>voting has already started, the might not be. For example, I call a vote,
>and play a bribes along with it before anyone attempts to block, I should
>get to replace the bribes before the voting starts. The same with
Bribes is (I beleive) restricted to "only during a political action", so
you would have to wait until after all blockers have failed/not tried to
play it - which precludes you from replacing it.
>additional stealth cards. But, if I played a telepathic vote counting
>after the block was beaten and the voting had started, would I get to
>replace that card?
Mechanics aside, we play that Vote Counting is "replaced" by the PA card
used to call the vote. This makes life much less confusing. So I'm
sure that this is not the official stance on it.
[ quoted text not captured ]
epr...@titan.oit.umass.edu (Erik Price (trainee)) writes:
>That is correct. The vote card being called IS replaced, but not any
>votes burnt thereafter to gain votes. Also, cards like "scorn of
>adonis," "elder kindred network," "bewitching oration," and "dread gaze"
>are all replaced as soon as they are played, as these are NOT vote cards
>being burnt to gain a vote.
True in the first draft of the rules (the pocketbook that came with the game).
The corrected rules have been upgraded to include *all* cards played
during a political action. - None may be replaced until after the action
is over.
sht...@duke.usask.ca (Shane Hamish William Travis)
>Erik Price (trainee) (epr...@titan.oit.umass.edu) wrote:
>: James R. McClure Jr. (jrmc...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu) wrote:>: : I believe that you are wrong on this one. No cards are replaced,
>: : once a vote
>: : is successfully called, until that vote is finished. You may not
>: : replace cards like Bewitching Oration & Dread Gaze.>: You're right, I *may* be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that I'm right.
>: Allow me to quote from the book.>: "Additional political cards can also be used by any of the other
>: Methuselahs for votes. The actual effects of these cards are ignored.>: Cards used in this way are discarded to the ash heap and not replaced
>: until the voting is finished.">: Now if we carefully examine the sentence above, we will notice that it
is
>: referring to "political cards." Political cards are specifically cards>: which say "Political Card." All votes, for instance, do. Bewitching
>: Oration and Dread Gaze are not political cards, they are Discipline
>: cards.>Eric:
>Your quote is correct, your logic is correct, but WotC still says that
>you are wrong.
I'll avoid sticking my nose directly into another one of these issues, but
I always wondered about the timing of the "+ vote" cards. Everyone here,
and I assume most elsewhere, plays them during the actual vote. But this
raises a timing issue - if a vampire gains votes AFTER casting votes, can
he use them? You're only allowed to cast your votes once. And how does
this interact with Telepathic Vote Counting and Pulling Strings, which
allow canceling votes as they are cast?
It looks to me like, at one point at least, no cards were to be played in
the referendum (the Eternal Struggle specifically states that originally,
political actions could NOT be used for votes. That was added later.)
The "gain vote" cards would have been played prior to the referendum, like
stealth/intercept. This would also make + vote cards in diablerie not a
problem - it's a vote, so no vote cards.
Again, they changed this to some extent. If the intent was to change it
so that gain votes cards could be played during referenda, as opposed to
during the calling of referenda, they omitted addressing the timing issue.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
sht...@duke.usask.ca (Shane Hamish William Travis) writes
>CurtAdams (curt...@aol.com) wrote:>: Although I wouldn't be surprised if they errata this, the + vote cards
say
>: "only usable during a political action" and thus can be thrown after
the
>: political action is begun but prior to the vote actually getting
called.
>: Such a use would get them replaced. I believe if you wait until the
vote
>: has started to throw them, you can't replace them.>I'm afraid that I don't see where in the timing there is any instant
>where these cards can be legally played (_during_ a political action) but>before the Referendum is called. Selected quotations:>"When a card is played as an action... a [referendum] is called.">"Political actions can be blocked as any other action can, but must be
>blocked before the terms of the vote are set; otherwise, voting begins.">Is _this_ the time you are talking about? After it has been successfully>played, but before the terms are set? I always saw the successful play
>(starting the actual Political Action) and the beginning of the
>referendum as simultaneous events.
Calling the vote is separate from the political action; look at the cards
which can be burned with votes.
We have always assumed that an action starts when it is attempted, not
when the block fails. How else could you play a stealth "action
modifier"?
P.S. I'd break the munchkin's arms, too.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
Shane Hamish William Travis (sht...@duke.usask.ca) wrote:
: Eric:: Your quote is correct, your logic is correct, but WotC still says that
: you are wrong.
Okay. Like I said, I could be wrong, and I am. You're right that it
doesn't make that much sense... no big deal.
Erik
(secretly going to keep playing it that you *do* draw to replace
discipline cards in a political action)
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Well, see, THERE'S my problem. I'm still using outdated rules. Sorry.
Erik