Future Bloodlines Speculation

A couple of months back I started to collate some data to determine which clans and bloodlines haven't really been presented in the CCG yet. Much of the info obtained are from various web sources, as I don't own many of the RPG books *sniff* Figured to go ahead and share what I have, as it only does so much good on my hard drive. Per my recollection, there are maybe a few groups I may have missed, but figured that the following were the most feasable to see print in a set. It should go to show that there is substantial uncovered territory remaining for White Wolf to explore, which should keep us all happy for some time to come. Bernie ====================================================== Remaining Vampire clans/concepts for exploration: Black Hand The Black Hand is a sect within a sect, an elite group of vampires recognized as separate from all other Sabbat. The Black Hand (or simply the Hand) is not truly a separate body. However, since all its members are loyal to the Sabbat over all else. The Black Hand is composed primarily of Assamite Antitribu, as well as many of the more militant vampires from other clans. The members of the Hand do not exist in packs of their own. Rather, they are members of normal Sabbat packs. while most Black Hand vampires are tough, their irate packmates quickly put them in their place if they overstep themselves Assamite Antitribu Description: The shock troops of the Sabbat's Black Hand. Much like their brethren with one exception - they never accepted the Tremere's curse. Disciplines: Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus Weaknesses: Easily addicted to Kindred Vitae. Any time an Assamite Antitribu tastes blood outside the Vaulderie, must make an Instincts roll at Blood Points drunk+3. If fails, Kindred frenzies, and attempts to drink as much blood as possible. Ravnos Antitribu Description: Much like the Nos, it is hard to tell Clan and antitribu apart. Disciplines: Animalism, Chimerstry, Fortitude Weaknesses: Must make a self-control roll to prevent self from committing her crime of choice when the opportunity presents itself Children of Osiris Somehow made once more into mortals by Osiris Description: The light in the shadows. Hunters of their own kind, and blood enemies of the Setites. Disciplines: [Chose three] Bardo, Obeah, Thaumaturgy, Serpentis, Dominate, Protean Weakness: Weak Blood Laibon (bloodline) Description: Strange guardians of the tribes of Africa. Filled with wanderlust they act as dark protectors and medicine men. Disciplines: Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude Weaknesses: If a Laibon expends or ingests Blood Points, the Beast automatically consumes a point. Nictuku (Sabbat) Disciplines: Obfuscate, Quietus, Grotequous Weaknesses: Like the Nosferatu, the Nictuku have an appearance of 0 and automatically fail any rolls having to do with appearance. Actually, thanks to their horrible aura, they can barely interact with humans at all. Description: It is said that the Nictuku are the true clan, and that the Nosferatu are a bloodline of the Nictuku. Fortunately for the person who said this, he didn't say it around a Nosferatu. Kindred of the East (Bushi / Gaki) Disciplines: (Bushi) - Celerity, Kai, Presence (Gaki) - Auspex, Dominate, Rift Weaknesses: Description: Kindred of the East are the eastern vampires, who are not really Kindred at all, but a completely different kind of vampire, who call themselves Kuei-Jin. The Kuei-Jin have all died and returned from a hell they call the Yomi Worlds to their own bodies. While they can feed on blood they take life-force (Chi) in general. Their powers are not dependant upon blood but age and enlightenment. The Kuei-Jin and the Kindred have a rather poor relationship. It is no mere coincidence that the Gaki are known as hungry ghosts. All Gaki must expend two blood points per day, instead of the usual one required of Western Kindred. Additionally, the difficulties in resisting Hunger Frenzy are two levels higher, much like the Brujah. Gaki means the hungry dead in Japanese. Seraphim (Bloodline) Description: Demon or angel? Who knows? Least of all them. Disciplines: Daimoinon, Vicissitude, Visceratika Weaknesses: Their natural appearance of Zero is distinctive, but can and is changed at will. They have amnesia concerning their mortal memories. As they are descended from Gargoyles, they are at -1 Willpower to resist any form of mind control. And their particular weakness is that only a single Seraph from each generation can produce progeny. Those individuals are named the Archangels, and all the rest have the flaw: Infertile Vitae. http://www.patman.org/wod/alternate/altclans/seraphim.asp Serpents of the Light (Bloodline) Description: Sabbat Setites Disciplines: Obfuscate, Presence, Serpentis Weaknesses: Extremely susceptible to sunlight (double damage.) Subtract one from all dice pools while in bright light (spotlights, strobes, etc.) Old Clan Tzimisce Description: Lodged in the heart of the Carpathians, they still survive, nursing the wounds of the Anarch Wars Various Houses of Tzimisce possess differing discipline spreads Tlacique: Warriors of Set Obfuscate, Presence, Protean ?? or is it Potence, Presence, Serpentis Potence, Presence, Protean ** The "default" predatory form for Shape of the Beast is a jaguar, rather than a wolf Inconnu? Bahari (aka: Followers of Lilith) Disciplines: Obsfucate, Potence, Sublimate ================================================================================= Note: I have notes elsewhere on my take of how these disciplines are likely to convert into CCG form. Will get around to posting them with my custom stuff sometime. Guess I'll have to talk with Damnans and create some symbols for these other disciplines :-) ABOMBWE [Discipline] *http://members.aol.com/SilasMcbth/index31.html Predator's Communion Taming the Beast; Whistling up the Beast Devil-Channel; Comba Taking the Skin; difficult to convert for CCG Earth Tremors; Predator's Misery; BARDO [Discipline] *http://vampirerpg.free.fr/Spoilers/Bardo.html Restore Humanitas; n/a Banish Sign of Thoth; Gift of Apis; Pillar of Osiris; Paradox; Boon of Anubis; n/a Bring forth the Dawn; Mummification Ritual; Ra's Blessing; Rebirth: GROTEQUOUS [Discipline] *http://www.patman.org/wod/clans/nickutu.asp#grot Release; Pariah; Summoning of the Beast; The Push; Removal; Form of the Beast; The Domain; Mark of the Beast; Death; Annihilate; KAI [Discipline, KoE] *http://members.aol.com/SilasMcbth/index33.html Inner Focus; Focused Strike; Honorable Elder Shield from Fire; Daimyo's Law; RIFT [Discipline, KoE] *http://www.wku.edu/~charles/rpgs/wod/discipline.html The Joining Glimpse of the Pain Crossing the Iron Bridge Journeying the Iron Bridge Passing the Inner Realm Collection Transport Doorway to Hell Eyes of a Thief Gateway Touch of Sin Imprison Manifest the Horror SUBLIMATE [Discipline] *http://www.angelfire.com/de2/lilithsgarden/powers.html Subliminal Probe; Subliminal Suggestion; n/a Dreamwalking; n/a Dream Orchestration; n/a Subliminal Puppetry; Daydreaming Nightmare; Hey! My master card! Kiss of the Succubus; Mind Over Matter Sleepwalking; n/a Induce Torpor; Dreams of the Past; n/a Visions; n/a Materialize the Mind; DreamTravel; n/a VALEREN Morphean Blow Armor of Caine's Fury Fiery Agony The Ailing Spirit Warding the Beast

<berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM> wrote > > A couple of months back I started to collate some data to determine > which clans and bloodlines haven't really been presented in the CCG yet. > Much of the info obtained are from various web sources, as I don't own > many of the RPG books *sniff* Thanks for doing this Bernie! I've added some corrections and comments of my own. > Black Hand > > The members of the > Hand do not exist in packs of their own. There are packs that are Black Hand only IIRC. Packs don't really have much of a theme in V:tES though. Maybe a concept that could be tweaked in somehow? (hint hint). > Assamite Antitribu > Description: The shock troops of the Sabbat's Black Hand. Much like > their brethren with one exception - they never accepted the Tremere's > curse. > Disciplines: Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus > Weaknesses: Easily addicted to Kindred Vitae. Any time an Assamite > Antitribu tastes blood outside the Vaulderie, must make an Instincts > roll at Blood Points drunk+3. If fails, Kindred frenzies, and attempts > to drink as much blood as possible. The majority of the !Assamites went back to Alamut after Ur Shulgi awoke. Now that the main clan are no longer Tremere-kissing wimps, the eldermost Sabbat Assamites went back to the fold. How they broke free of their Vinculums I'm not really sure. Maybe Ur Shulgi's spell or whatever that broke the curse also broke the Sabbat bloodbond? That would make sense... > Children of Osiris > Somehow made once more into mortals by Osiris > Description: The light in the shadows. Hunters of their own kind, and > blood enemies of the Setites. > Disciplines: [Chose three] Bardo, Obeah, Thaumaturgy, Serpentis, > Dominate, Protean > Weakness: Weak Blood I don't think these guys are canon any more (thank Caine). Their disciplines were dependent on what clan they were before they joined the CoO. This is not a clan that you are 'born' into as they cannot be embraced. The new members were converted over from other clans. Bardo was the signature discipline that was taught upon induction into the bloodline. > Laibon (bloodline) > Description: Strange guardians of the tribes of Africa. Filled with > wanderlust they act as dark protectors and medicine men. > Disciplines: Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude > Weaknesses: If a Laibon expends or ingests Blood Points, the Beast > automatically consumes a point. Believed to be extinct past the Dark Ages but then I don't think a census of the world's vampires is likely to uncover everyone, especially those who live in deep Africa. They are mentioned briefly in the revised Gangrel clanbook. > Nictuku (Sabbat) > Disciplines: Obfuscate, Quietus, Grotequous Grotequous? :) Where did you find this one Bernie? LOL > Weaknesses: Like the Nosferatu, the Nictuku have an appearance of 0 and > automatically fail any rolls having to do with appearance. Actually, > thanks to their horrible aura, they can barely interact with humans at > all. > Description: It is said that the Nictuku are the true clan, and that the > Nosferatu are a bloodline of the Nictuku. Fortunately for the person who > said this, he didn't say it around a Nosferatu. The Nictuku are basically just the ancient childer of Absimilard (Nosferatu Antedilluvean/progenitor). Baba Yaga was one of them and another lovely lady called Gupta the Salt Queen or something to that effect. As far as I know there is no distinct clan discipline for the Nictuku. > Kindred of the East (Bushi / Gaki) > Disciplines: (Bushi) - Celerity, Kai, Presence (Gaki) - Auspex, > Dominate, Rift > Weaknesses: The Bushi and Gaki are no longer canon after the introduction of Kindred of the East. > Seraphim (Bloodline) > Description: Demon or angel? Who knows? Least of all them. > Disciplines: Daimoinon, Vicissitude, Visceratika > Weaknesses: Their natural appearance of Zero is distinctive, but can and > is changed at will. They have amnesia concerning their mortal memories. > As they are descended from Gargoyles, they are at -1 Willpower to resist > any form of mind control. And their particular weakness is that only a > single Seraph from each generation can produce progeny. Those > individuals are named the Archangels, and all the rest have the flaw: > Infertile Vitae. > http://www.patman.org/wod/alternate/altclans/seraphim.asp Never heard of them... There are probably more fake clans and bloodlines made by fans than there are V:tES cards. Like most amateur card designers, the unofficial bloodlines tend to be... a bit too powerful. And very very stupid. There are Seraphim in the World of Darkness. IIRC they are the three leaders of the Black Hand. > Serpents of the Light (Bloodline) > Description: Sabbat Setites > Disciplines: Obfuscate, Presence, Serpentis > Weaknesses: Extremely susceptible to sunlight (double damage.) Subtract > one from all dice pools while in bright light (spotlights, strobes, > etc.) One of my favourites. Unlike the main clan, they do not worship Set. They're more Voodoo. They talk to loa (spirits) and tend to be very creepy. > Tlacique: Warriors of Set > Obfuscate, Presence, Protean ?? or is it > Potence, Presence, Serpentis > Potence, Presence, Protean ** > The "default" predatory form for Shape of the Beast is a jaguar, rather > than a wolf Tlacique and Warriors of Set are not the same thing. Tlacique (who were discussed in this forum not long ago) are a Central American branch of the Setites that have no idea they were ever part of that clan. Their disciplines are as you say OBF, PRE amd PRO. Warriors of Set are basically regular setites except that they worship Set in his more warlike aspect and study the disciplines of POT, PRE and SER (I think). They tend to follow a different path than the Path of Typhon. > Inconnu? This is a sect that consists of almost exclusively elder vampires who have divorced themselves from the "Jyhad"... or so they think. Dracula is a member of this sect allegedly. Note that there has been very little officially written about these guys for a very long time to the best of my knowledge. And a lot of what was writtem is not canon. This is probably because a lot of what was written was utter shite. > Bahari (aka: Followers of Lilith) > Disciplines: Obsfucate, Potence, Sublimate Bahari are basically a cult, and are not limited only to vampires. There are no "clan disciplines" that I am aware of, though the members do try to learn certain disciplines that help them in their quest for knowledge and... pain. Or something. > ABOMBWE [Discipline] > > Devil-Channel; Devil-Channel? Is that at all like MTV? > BARDO [Discipline] > *http://vampirerpg.free.fr/Spoilers/Bardo.html > Restore Humanitas; n/a > Banish Sign of Thoth; > Gift of Apis; > Pillar of Osiris; > Paradox; > Boon of Anubis; n/a > Bring forth the Dawn; > Mummification Ritual; > Ra's Blessing; > Rebirth: Please LSJ, assure us that you will *NEVER* introduce Bardo into V:tES. Cheers, WES

Wes wrote: > <berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM> wrote >>BARDO [Discipline] >>*http://vampirerpg.free.fr/Spoilers/Bardo.html > Please LSJ, assure us that you will *NEVER* introduce Bardo into V:tES. :-) BTW: The vampirerpg.free.fr server has purged a lot of its pages in Q1 of this year (and moved others). It seems that the Bardo page was among those purged - the URL above returns a 404 for me. Try this one: http://php.indiana.edu/~adashiel/wod/archive/altbardo.html -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> > Black Hand > > > > The members of the > > Hand do not exist in packs of their own. > > There are packs that are Black Hand only IIRC. This is only a very recent development in light of the Final Nights. IIRC the accord struck between the Hand and the Sabbat heirarchy after the last Sabbat Civil War actually required the Hand the distribute it's members amongst normal packs for mutual peace of mind. One thing you haven't mentioned is the distinction between the Lost Tribe and the Tal'Mahe'Ra. Both were Gehenna cults of sorts, and ended up merging to become the Black Hand as they are in modern times. The latter were much more secretive though, and many Hand members were not aware that a 'double membership' was going on around them involving this Tal'Mahe'Ra or 'True Hand' as well. The True Hand were like a sect within a sect, but their plans were scuppered when their secret headquarters in the Shadowlands (the shadow-city of Enoch) was bombed to Oblivion by the Smiling Lord of the Heirarchy (see the Wraith: the Oblivion RPG for more info). (As an aside, this same event explains why the Giovanni have lost contact with many of their wraith contacts, and why their remaining ghostly servants are so hard to retain and control. This event also explains the sudden appearance of demons in the world, as depicted by the Demon: The Fallen RPG) > Packs don't really have much of a theme in V:tES though. Maybe a concept > that could be tweaked in somehow? (hint hint). It's difficult to see how packs could become significant in regards to the overall metagame. It may be worth lobbying for more action and reaction cards that involve 'other' or 'multiple' vampires (similar to Sanguinus) but which are sect-based instead of Discipline-based. I guess we'll have to wait and see eh? :) > > Assamite Antitribu > > Description: The shock troops of the Sabbat's Black Hand. Much like > > their brethren with one exception - they never accepted the Tremere's > > curse. > > Disciplines: Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus > > Weaknesses: Easily addicted to Kindred Vitae. Any time an Assamite > > Antitribu tastes blood outside the Vaulderie, must make an Instincts > > roll at Blood Points drunk+3. If fails, Kindred frenzies, and attempts > > to drink as much blood as possible. > > The majority of the !Assamites went back to Alamut after Ur Shulgi awoke. > Now that the main clan are no longer Tremere-kissing wimps, the eldermost > Sabbat Assamites went back to the fold. How they broke free of their > Vinculums I'm not really sure. Maybe Ur Shulgi's spell or whatever that > broke the curse also broke the Sabbat bloodbond? That would make sense... "Curse?" <snaps fingers> "What Curse?" IMHO Ur-Shulgi is probably the most powerful vampire awake as depicted in the Vampire RPG and the associated fiction. He demanded that all of Haqim's bloodline return to the Mountain for a test of loyalty. Those that served any master or god other than Haqim himself were destroyed, with only the most loyal being permitted to remain alive. Hence why the majority of the viziers and magicians of the clan legged it when they had the chance, together with those who never returned to the mountain to be tested, they now make up the new 'antitribu' and as a group are petitioning to join the Camarilla (as much for protection as much as anything else). > > Children of Osiris > > Somehow made once more into mortals by Osiris > > Description: The light in the shadows. Hunters of their own kind, and > > blood enemies of the Setites. > > Disciplines: [Chose three] Bardo, Obeah, Thaumaturgy, Serpentis, > > Dominate, Protean > > Weakness: Weak Blood > > I don't think these guys are canon any more (thank Caine). TBH I think they are still canon, they've just been sidelined completely with the revised edition take on the Setites and the immortals (mummies). > Their disciplines were dependent on what clan they were before they joined > the CoO. This is not a clan that you are 'born' into as they cannot be > embraced. The new members were converted over from other clans. Bardo was > the signature discipline that was taught upon induction into the bloodline. That sounds correct - in my own games, I treat the Children as more of a small, exclusive Gehenna Cult rather than a bloodline. > > Laibon (bloodline) Like the Lamia and the other Dark Ages bloodlines, they are not supposed to have surivived to the modern day. However, given many deceased Dark Ages characters have been brought to life anyway in the CCG, anything's possible! :) > > Nictuku (Sabbat) > > The Nictuku are basically just the ancient childer of Absimilard (Nosferatu > Antedilluvean/progenitor). Baba Yaga was one of them and another lovely lady > called Gupta the Salt Queen or something to that effect. As far as I know > there is no distinct clan discipline for the Nictuku. There are many names given for them in various sourcebooks, but in fact it's actually all conjecture. They've never been properly documented or explained (IMHO a good thing) but they're great for keeping your PCs in suspense... :) > > Kindred of the East (Bushi / Gaki) > > Disciplines: (Bushi) - Celerity, Kai, Presence (Gaki) - Auspex, > > Dominate, Rift > > Weaknesses: > > The Bushi and Gaki are no longer canon after the introduction of Kindred of > the East. Well IIRC the names still mean something, but they have been reinterpreted through the Kindred of the East material. The original Disciplines have been entirely replaced though. > > Seraphim (Bloodline) That one definitely sounds like fan material as opposed to canon. > > Inconnu? > > This is a sect that consists of almost exclusively elder vampires who have > divorced themselves from the "Jyhad"... or so they think. Dracula is a > member of this sect allegedly. Note that there has been very little > officially written about these guys for a very long time to the best of my > knowledge. And a lot of what was writtem is not canon. This is probably > because a lot of what was written was utter shite. Yup again I'm glad WW have kept these guys largely a mystery. The sect definitely exists, and Inconnu Monitors are included in several city sourcebooks for Vampire. The story goes that after the fall of Rome, and then Consantinople, a number of elders grew disgusted at the consequences of their political maneuvering and withdrew from all Kindred affairs entirely. They are allegedly mostly Ventrue, Malkavian and True Brujah and although they try to keep tabs on what is happening, they never get involved or lend their support. TBH all the official modern-day bloodlines were included in the Bloodlines card set that we've seen already. The only additional factions from the canon RPG that might be worth a mention are: - 'Old clan' Tzimisce, sometimes collectively referred to as the Oradea League, who had Dominate instead of Vicissitude as a clan Discipline. These guys survived the Anarch Revolt and the formation of the Sabbat and would definitely be Scarce in the CCG. They've hardly been mentioned in the Revised edition game though, and Achilli may have binned them altogether without us knowing. - Surviving Cappadocians. Lazarus the progeny of Cappadocius is rumoured to still be alive, and if so he may have sired more of his own. In the CCG they would probably get their own Discipline to contrast them from the Giovanni and the Samedi. Again these guys would definitely be Scarce. - The bloodline of aquatic vampires who mainly live in the sea referred to by Blood-Dimmed Tides (a Werewolf sourcebook). Bit stupid if you ask me, but could be fun I guess... :) - The Sabbat Inquisition, another mini-sect within the Sabbat devoted to rooting out and eradicating infernalism - The many various Gehenna Cults within the Camarilla The new sourcebook for Africa has just come out for the RPG though, and there might be new stuff in there that we could add to the list. And that's not even starting all the other types of mortal and supernatural creatures that could be included as allies, retainers, or even as new types of minion cards... Regards, Mike

On Thu, 15 May 2003 05:08:48 -0400, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: > ><berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM> wrote >> >> A couple of months back I started to collate some data to determine >> which clans and bloodlines haven't really been presented in the CCG yet. >> Much of the info obtained are from various web sources, as I don't own >> many of the RPG books *sniff* > >Thanks for doing this Bernie! I've added some corrections and comments of my >own. As I recall, there was some speculation on whether Bloodlines would be released as two expansions considering how much ground there is to cover. I found myself wondering if there really was enough material to offer up something fresh as well as filling in a few gaps from the first set. Per my previous post, I don't have much access to the RPG sources so the information presented primarily is as a result of numerous web searches. I did try to weed out fan-based stuff, but can't really tell if I did so accurately. I'll take what info is presented here and re-post an updated compilation later. Some selected (and unmarked) snipping follows in response to some of Wes's comments. >> Black Hand > >> Children of Osiris >> Somehow made once more into mortals by Osiris > >I don't think these guys are canon any more (thank Caine). Hmmm, somehow I thought that there were a few of these still around.. >Their disciplines were dependent on what clan they were before they joined >the CoO. This is not a clan that you are 'born' into as they cannot be >embraced. The new members were converted over from other clans. Bardo was >the signature discipline that was taught upon induction into the bloodline. >> Laibon (bloodline) >> Description: Strange guardians of the tribes of Africa. Filled with >> wanderlust they act as dark protectors and medicine men. >> Disciplines: Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude >> Weaknesses: If a Laibon expends or ingests Blood Points, the Beast >> automatically consumes a point. > >Believed to be extinct past the Dark Ages but then I don't think a census of >the world's vampires is likely to uncover everyone, especially those who >live in deep Africa. They are mentioned briefly in the revised Gangrel >clanbook. If I recall my take on this, the Laibon would defenitely be scarce by today's standards, and I believe that there are probably a few left out there somewhere. Also, I find their clan powers and perspectives to be interesting. >> Nictuku (Sabbat) >> Disciplines: Obfuscate, Quietus, Grotequous > >Grotequous? :) Where did you find this one Bernie? LOL Geez Wes, you're gonna make me try and find all the links from months ago? :-P I'll try and track the page back down later tonight. >The Nictuku are basically just the ancient childer of Absimilard (Nosferatu >Antedilluvean/progenitor). Baba Yaga was one of them and another lovely lady >called Gupta the Salt Queen or something to that effect. As far as I know >there is no distinct clan discipline for the Nictuku. Of what little I know, there is really little known about them anyhow. I would think that the Nictuku could/should be presented in VTES as a solid fully-functional Independent clan. >> Kindred of the East (Bushi / Gaki) >> Disciplines: (Bushi) - Celerity, Kai, Presence (Gaki) - Auspex, >> Dominate, Rift >> Weaknesses: > >The Bushi and Gaki are no longer canon after the introduction of Kindred of >the East. Okay then. I'll cull this from the list.. [ quoted text not captured ] Could be fun, and would make a nice counterpoint much like the CE/Sabbat rivalry. >> Tlacique: Warriors of Set >> Obfuscate, Presence, Protean ?? or is it >> Potence, Presence, Serpentis >> Potence, Presence, Protean ** >> The "default" predatory form for Shape of the Beast is a jaguar, rather >> than a wolf > >Tlacique and Warriors of Set are not the same thing. Actually I know this. Looking at the discipline spreads and not much likelyhood that you'd see both appear in the CCG, you'd probably get some sort of amalgamation (if that is a real word) of the two which would probably appear like the original Sabbat Gangrel did (odd mixes of city/country discipline skill sets). >> Inconnu? > >This is a sect that consists of almost exclusively elder vampires who have >divorced themselves from the "Jyhad"... or so they think. Dracula is a >member of this sect allegedly. Note that there has been very little >officially written about these guys for a very long time to the best of my >knowledge. And a lot of what was writtem is not canon. This is probably >because a lot of what was written was utter shite. >> Bahari (aka: Followers of Lilith) >> Disciplines: Obsfucate, Potence, Sublimate > >Bahari are basically a cult, and are not limited only to vampires. There are >no "clan disciplines" that I am aware of, though the members do try to learn >certain disciplines that help them in their quest for knowledge and... pain. >Or something. What info I found on them was interesting, but I hadn't gotten around to detailing them out yet. >> ABOMBWE [Discipline] >> >> Devil-Channel; > >Devil-Channel? Is that at all like MTV? <snip> >> BARDO [Discipline] >> *http://vampirerpg.free.fr/Spoilers/Bardo.html <Snip> >Please LSJ, assure us that you will *NEVER* introduce Bardo into V:tES. "Never say never, NEVER!" >Cheers, >WES Glad you liked the compilation, BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

On Thu, 15 May 2003, "Mike Nudd" <mi...@vekn.org.uk> wrote: >> > Black Hand >> > >> > The members of the >> > Hand do not exist in packs of their own. >> >> There are packs that are Black Hand only IIRC. > >This is only a very recent development in light of the Final Nights. IIRC >the accord struck between the Hand and the Sabbat heirarchy after the last >Sabbat Civil War actually required the Hand the distribute it's members >amongst normal packs for mutual peace of mind. > >One thing you haven't mentioned is the distinction between the Lost Tribe >and the Tal'Mahe'Ra. Both were Gehenna cults of sorts, and ended up merging >to become the Black Hand as they are in modern times. The latter were much >more secretive though, and many Hand members were not aware that a 'double >membership' was going on around them involving this Tal'Mahe'Ra or 'True >Hand' as well. The True Hand were like a sect within a sect, but their plans >were scuppered when their secret headquarters in the Shadowlands (the >shadow-city of Enoch) was bombed to Oblivion by the Smiling Lord of the >Heirarchy (see the Wraith: the Oblivion RPG for more info). Interesting. But is that something that would need to be taken into consideration in the modern setting? >(As an aside, this same event explains why the Giovanni have lost contact >with many of their wraith contacts, and why their remaining ghostly servants >are so hard to retain and control. This event also explains the sudden >appearance of demons in the world, as depicted by the Demon: The Fallen RPG) > >> Packs don't really have much of a theme in V:tES though. Maybe a concept >> that could be tweaked in somehow? (hint hint). > >It's difficult to see how packs could become significant in regards to the >overall metagame. It may be worth lobbying for more action and reaction >cards that involve 'other' or 'multiple' vampires (similar to Sanguinus) but >which are sect-based instead of Discipline-based. I guess we'll have to wait >and see eh? :) That sounds like an interesting idea. Curious to see in The Anarchs has any such interplay like this. >> > Assamite Antitribu <Snip> >> > Children of Osiris <Snip> >> I don't think these guys are canon any more (thank Caine). > >TBH I think they are still canon, they've just been sidelined completely >with the revised edition take on the Setites and the immortals (mummies). Hmm, I'd like to check into this. What little I've read about the last changes to the Mummies was intriguing. >> > Laibon (bloodline) > >Like the Lamia and the other Dark Ages bloodlines, they are not supposed to >have surivived to the modern day. However, given many deceased Dark Ages >characters have been brought to life anyway in the CCG, anything's possible! >:) I'd really like to see these reappear. The Laibon would have a great synergy with the existing clans. >> > Nictuku (Sabbat) <Snip> > As far as I know there is no distinct clan discipline for the Nictuku. Probably not, but if they were introduced as a clan I'd prefer that they did so as to keep them distinctive from Nos/!Nos. >There are many names given for them in various sourcebooks, but in fact it's >actually all conjecture. They've never been properly documented or explained >(IMHO a good thing) but they're great for keeping your PCs in suspense... :) Yay! >> > Kindred of the East (Bushi / Gaki) >> > Disciplines: (Bushi) - Celerity, Kai, Presence (Gaki) - Auspex, >> > Dominate, Rift >> > Weaknesses: >> >> The Bushi and Gaki are no longer canon after the introduction of Kindred >> of the East. > >Well IIRC the names still mean something, but they have been reinterpreted >through the Kindred of the East material. The original Disciplines have been >entirely replaced though. Okay. >> > Seraphim (Bloodline) > >That one definitely sounds like fan material as opposed to canon. Don't know. I'll have to recheck where I got their info from. >> > Inconnu? >> >> This is a sect that consists of almost exclusively elder vampires who have >> divorced themselves from the "Jyhad"... or so they think. Dracula is a >> member of this sect allegedly. Note that there has been very little >> officially written about these guys for a very long time to the best of my >> knowledge. And a lot of what was writtem is not canon. This is probably >> because a lot of what was written was utter shite. > >Yup again I'm glad WW have kept these guys largely a mystery. The sect >definitely exists, and Inconnu Monitors are included in several city >sourcebooks for Vampire. The story goes that after the fall of Rome, and >then Consantinople, a number of elders grew disgusted at the consequences of >their political maneuvering and withdrew from all Kindred affairs entirely. >They are allegedly mostly Ventrue, Malkavian and True Brujah and although >they try to keep tabs on what is happening, they never get involved or lend >their support. Which is decent material to pack into another Bloodlines based expansion. Of course all this is pretty much "what-if" stuff, and depenedent on whether White Wolf would be interested in a similar expansion to bloodlines. >TBH all the official modern-day bloodlines were included in the Bloodlines >card set that we've seen already. The only additional factions from the >canon RPG that might be worth a mention are: > >- 'Old clan' Tzimisce, sometimes collectively referred to as the Oradea >League, who had Dominate instead of Vicissitude as a clan Discipline. These >guys survived the Anarch Revolt and the formation of the Sabbat and would >definitely be Scarce in the CCG. They've hardly been mentioned in the >Revised edition game though, and Achilli may have binned them altogether >without us knowing. I don't really see these as being very easy to incorporate into the CCG, unless released as a couple of scarce vampires. >- Surviving Cappadocians. Lazarus the progeny of Cappadocius is rumoured to >still be alive, and if so he may have sired more of his own. In the CCG they >would probably get their own Discipline to contrast them from the Giovanni >and the Samedi. Again these guys would definitely be Scarce. Wouldn't expect to see these either. Obvious specualtion is that any surviving Cappadocians are probably the current Harbingers. >- The bloodline of aquatic vampires who mainly live in the sea referred to >by Blood-Dimmed Tides (a Werewolf sourcebook). Bit stupid if you ask me, but >could be fun I guess... :) Couldn't agree more. >- The Sabbat Inquisition, another mini-sect within the Sabbat devoted to >rooting out and eradicating infernalism Part of a Mortals-type expansion you think? The more I think on it, this could easily be thematicly correct with another bloodlines-type set. >- The many various Gehenna Cults within the Camarilla >The new sourcebook for Africa has just come out for the RPG though, and >there might be new stuff in there that we could add to the list. And that's >not even starting all the other types of mortal and supernatural creatures >that could be included as allies, retainers, or even as new types of minion >cards... I was trying to keep the list to the most likely inclusions. If there is anything worth including from the Africa rulebook, someone be sure to let me know. >Regards, > >Mike Ditto, BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

> Of what little I know, there is really little known about them anyhow. > I would think that the Nictuku could/should be presented in VTES as a > solid fully-functional Independent clan. The Nictuku are all chilren of the nosferatu Antediluvian - this is, they are ALL 4th generation vampires. To represent them accurately, they'd all have to be 11 pointers - there are five of them from memory. Baba Yaga, Echidna, some Lord of Mists guy, and one or two others. I think "Whispers of the Nictuku" is as close as we'll ever get, chief. : ) > >The Bushi and Gaki are no longer canon after the introduction of Kindred of > >the East. > > Okay then. I'll cull this from the list.. That's not to say WW couldn't do a Kindred of the East expansion - each Dharma [philosphy] could function like a clan. The KotE powers could offer up a whole new set of disciplines, although truth be told, I think we need an expasion on Bloodlines to put them on an even keel with the regular clans [much like FN did for the indi clans] before a KoTE expansion. One Clan they haven't done yet are the Cappadocians. Sure, most of them got eaten by the Gios, but a few very low gens are still swimming around underneath Venice. They have the same discipline spread as the Harbringers of Skulls [the HoS are Cappos who fled to the shadwolands during Augustus'purge] and might make a nice complimentary clan for them. noodleboy

In article <e72ec49.03051...@posting.google.com>, noodleboy <nood...@iprimus.net.au> wrote: >I think "Whispers of the Nictuku" is as close as we'll ever get, >chief. : ) Agreed. Not sure what they'd add anyhow. >> >The Bushi and Gaki are no longer canon after the introduction of Kindred of >> >the East. >> >> Okay then. I'll cull this from the list.. > >That's not to say WW couldn't do a Kindred of the East expansion - >each Dharma [philosphy] could function like a clan. The KotE powers >could offer up a whole new set of disciplines, although truth be told, >I think we need an expasion on Bloodlines to put them on an even keel >with the regular clans [much like FN did for the indi clans] before a >KoTE expansion. Tricky. Modelling things like Yin Chi, Yang Chi, Shintai, and Pranas sounds like a nightmare unless you abstract things so much it isn't KotE anymore. I keep turning the idea over in my head and haven't come up with anything I really like (not that I'm not willing to be surprised by the clever notions of the Design Team if they do go this route). Game fundamentals like diablerie and the Masquerade apply very differently, if at all. >One Clan they haven't done yet are the Cappadocians. Sure, most of >them got eaten by the Gios, but a few very low gens are still swimming >around underneath Venice. They have the same discipline spread as the >Harbringers of Skulls [the HoS are Cappos who fled to the shadwolands >during Augustus'purge] and might make a nice complimentary clan for >them. Hm. I'd be inclined to make one or two very large (10 and 11) HoS and say those are them, at that point. I haven't laid eyes on a copy of Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom yet, so I can't speak to those, but other than that the only major group I'd really love to see introduced is Serpents of the Light. Sure, they're just FoS antitribu, but their culture is so distinct (vodoun vs. egyptian) and the animosity between the FoS and SoL so great I'd feel pretty dissatisfied with just Sabbat Followers. Possible future expansion could introduce SoL and Sabbat Assamites, as well as Assamite clan cards requiring specific affiliations -- Independent Assamites for Haqim/Ur-Shulgi related stuff, Camarilla for things distinct to the Muslim/other devout Assamite refugees, Sabbat for the former Antitribu. Some of the 'new crop' Rakshasa-type Ravnos and more of the subfamily Giovanni to round it out. gomi -- Individually, I love you all with affection unspeakable; but, collectively, I look upon you with a disgust that amounts to absolute detestation. - Gilbert and Sullivan, 'Pirates of Penzance'

In message <e72ec49.03051...@posting.google.com>, noodleboy <nood...@iprimus.net.au> writes: >I think we need an expasion on Bloodlines to put them on an even keel >with the regular clans [much like FN did for the indi clans] before a >KoTE expansion. The Bloodlines aren't intended to be on an even keel with the regular clans. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html Due to its nature (most bloodlines are not designed to be played on their own, but are designed to enhance other decks built around the more widely-known clans) -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

On Fri, 16 May 2003 03:00:51 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >In message <e72ec49.03051...@posting.google.com>, noodleboy ><nood...@iprimus.net.au> writes: >>I think we need an expasion on Bloodlines to put them on an even keel >>with the regular clans [much like FN did for the indi clans] before a >>KoTE expansion. > >The Bloodlines aren't intended to be on an even keel with the regular >clans. > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html > > Due to its nature (most bloodlines are not designed to be played > on their own, but are designed to enhance other decks built > around the more widely-known clans) Maybe so, but there were some problems with distribution of power in the Bloodlines release. Best guess is when you only have so many card slots to work with you do the best that you can. Besides, you always what to leave your audience "wanting more". Bloodlines has partial success. It would be really nice to have a complimentary expansion to shore up the weak points. From my article "A Look at Bloodlines" ================================== A look at Bloodlines: Bloodlines was released for the experienced deckbuilder with the premise that the new minor clans would inject some new life into the game. Ambitious in scope, achieved partial success in execution. Let's face it, Bloodlines is an incomplete experience. We play card games primarily for 3 reasons 1. They provide entertainment 2. A good CCG maintains a level competetive environment 3. The chance to build more social ties In regards to Bloodlines, it succeeds on points 1&3 while failing point 2. By design, Bloodlines was developed to mix in with existing cards to create new strategies. Unfortunately, almost the entire set needs a shot in the arm so as to compete on a level playing field. V:TES design takes it's cues from the World of Darkness such that the designers didn't want to give these minor clans too much power. If too effective, they could dethrone the primary clans from their dominance in the CCG (Ventrue, Pander, Ravnos, etc.). So what we have now are a number of minor clans that see marginal play, as thier potential to win is hampered by lack of resources. If the bloodlines were without any real power, they would have been wiped out long ago. ================================== I could probably elaborate on a few of the points above if necessary. Let's just say that while I did like Bloodlines, it came across as an incomplete experience. That's not what a good CCG expansion should strive for. BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

"Mike Nudd" <mi...@vekn.org.uk> wrote in message news:<UALwa.22792$xd5.1...@stones.force9.net>... > - The bloodline of aquatic vampires who mainly live in the sea referred to > by Blood-Dimmed Tides (a Werewolf sourcebook). Bit stupid if you ask me, but > could be fun I guess... :) They are also mentioned in the revised Clanbook: Gangrel, as one of their bloodlines. Conjecture is, IIRC, that they share at least FOR and PRO, although they have different shapes for their 'beast' forms. It may be worth adding the Ravnos Urmen (Urme is the singular) bloodline, who have ANI AUS CHI as their disciplines. All other Ravnos families share the usual disciplines, although from the Phuri Dae is said that they study Chimerstry above all else. Many of the shilmulo, or gypsy-blood vampires, have access to Gypsy powers that translate best to Auspex, Temporis and Thaumaturgy, although they need to drink the blood of their mortal kin to do so. There is also a bloodline of shilmulo related strongly to Silent Striders, who can likewise temporarily gain powers not unlike Celerity and Protean. Blessings, Patrick Columbus, OH

In message <3ec44b52...@netnews.attbi.com>, berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM writes: >Maybe so, but there were some problems with distribution of power in the >Bloodlines release. There have been some, yes. That's utterly separate to trying to put them on an even keel. They were designed to *NOT* be on an even keel. [ quoted text not captured ]

> The Bloodlines aren't intended to be on an even keel with the regular > clans. > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html > > Due to its nature (most bloodlines are not designed to be played > on their own, but are designed to enhance other decks built > around the more widely-known clans) Blood Brothers don't enhance many other decks. And 7 Sanguinus cards just don't cut it IMHO. All the new disciplines need a boost. Sure, you might squeeze some Daughters in with the Ventrue, and Kyasid work well with the Lasombra, but how effective can your Ahrimanes deck really be with only a 5 vamp spread in your crypt and 7 Spiritus cards to wreak havok with? And I'm certain a bunch of people can post a bunch of "tournament winning" decks built around Bloodlines. But why only do the job half assed? What is stopping WW doing a Bloodlines boost expansion? noodleboy "Homer? Who is Homer? My name is Guy Incognito..."

In message <3ec44b52...@netnews.attbi.com>, berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM mumbled something about: >We play card games primarily for 3 reasons >1. They provide entertainment >2. A good CCG maintains a level competetive environment >3. The chance to build more social ties > >In regards to Bloodlines, it succeeds on points 1&3 while failing >point 2. By design, Bloodlines was developed to mix in with existing >cards to create new strategies. Unfortunately, almost the entire set >needs a shot in the arm so as to compete on a level playing field. Wow, I don't get it. Most of the Bloodlines ARE, in fact, inherently competitive. The only two that aren't are the Samedi and !Salubri, and those are even decent when taken as partial clans. I'm not sure where you are basing your opinions on, but these clans can all make brutally effective decks: Ahrimanes Daughters Blood Brothers Salubri Gargoyles True Brujah Harbingers of Skulls Kiasyd The ninth and tenth are Samedi and !Salubri. Not as convenient, admittedly, but certainly usable in combination with other clans. The eleventh is the Baali; who, while not for the amateur deckbuilder, are certainly not weak. The twelfth is a scarce clan (Nagaraja), and as such is difficult to play effectively by itself with only three vampires... but you cannot tell me that Le Dinh Tho has not made a huge impact on the game. Raful has a home in any obf/dom deck, and Kanimana Belghazi with DOM/NEC is hardly an ill choice for the Giovanni. The facts are so far removed from your blind assertion of "almost the entire set needs a shot in the arm" that it leads me to believe that you've possibly never actually PLAYED with any of the Bloodlines. >V:TES design takes it's cues from the World of Darkness such that the >designers didn't want to give these minor clans too much power. >If too effective, they could dethrone the primary clans from their >dominance in the CCG (Ventrue, Pander, Ravnos, etc.). This is silliness. Especially the belief that the Pander are dominant. I do not believe I've seen a single Pander deck since the MRP of Legacy of Pander... a misprinted card in the first place. >So what we have now are a number of minor clans that see marginal >play, as thier potential to win is hampered by lack of resources. This is further silliness. Nine of twelve clans have PLENTY of potential to win, and plenty of resources. >If the bloodlines were without any real power, they would have >been wiped out long ago. This is the only non-silly statement. They DO have real power. >================================== > >I could probably elaborate on a few of the points above if necessary. Sure. Go for it. Don't forget about the man on the grassy knoll; as long as we're into conspiracy theories about V:TES design... -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

In message <e72ec49.03051...@posting.google.com>, nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) mumbled something about: >Blood Brothers don't enhance many other decks. And 7 Sanguinus cards >just don't cut it IMHO. All the new disciplines need a boost. Sure, >you might squeeze some Daughters in with the Ventrue, and Kyasid work >well with the Lasombra, but how effective can your Ahrimanes deck >really be with only a 5 vamp spread in your crypt and 7 Spiritus cards >to wreak havok with? Extremely. They also have Animalism and Presence, if you recall. Feel free to consider the potential of utilising more than only one discipline at a time. >And I'm certain a bunch of people can post a bunch of "tournament >winning" decks built around Bloodlines. But why only do the job half >assed? What is stopping WW doing a Bloodlines boost expansion? If it is possible to build tournament winning decks, what makes you think that the job was done half-assed in the first place? QED. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Most of the Bloodlines ARE, in fact, inherently competitive. The only >two that aren't are the Samedi and !Salubri, and those are even decent >when taken as partial clans. Not sure why you think Samedi are one of the weaker ones. Bunch of built in +1 bleeders with Obfuscate (and Fortitude). They are almost all overcosted, Thanatosis blows, and they have clear deficiencies because of it, but I hear bleeding at stealth (or unblockably) doesn't suck. >I'm not sure where you are basing your opinions on, but these clans can >all make brutally effective decks: > >Ahrimanes >Daughters >Blood Brothers >Salubri >Gargoyles Ignoring the use of Create Gargoyle, I wouldn't agree with this. >True Brujah Wouldn't agree with this either. However, True Brujah do do a pretty good job at the whole "we want you to mix individual bloodlines vampires with others" philosophy. With each other, too many holes in what they can do. Lack Celerity to mix well with Brujah/!Brujah. >Harbingers of Skulls Nor this. >Kiasyd > >The ninth and tenth are Samedi and !Salubri. Not as convenient, >admittedly, but certainly usable in combination with other clans. Samedi are adequate on their own. They just have the FoS weakness - can't survive rapid pool loss, though it's possible to graft Dominate to try and mitigate this. The >eleventh is the Baali; who, while not for the amateur deckbuilder, are >certainly not weak. The twelfth is a scarce clan (Nagaraja), and as >such is difficult to play effectively by itself with only three >vampires... but you cannot tell me that Le Dinh Tho has not made a huge >impact on the game. Raful has a home in any obf/dom deck, and Kanimana >Belghazi with DOM/NEC is hardly an ill choice for the Giovanni. It does bother me, though, that the Nagaraja don't have anything to do collectively. >>So what we have now are a number of minor clans that see marginal >>play, as thier potential to win is hampered by lack of resources. > >This is further silliness. Nine of twelve clans have PLENTY of >potential to win, and plenty of resources. Some of the bloodlines are better than some of the real clans. (I'm basically agreeing with your argument that they aren't all that weak.) My concern is actually quite different from Bernie's. I find a number of the bloodlines limited in competitive versatility and surprisingly often lacking in what they were supposed to be good at - crossover with other clans. However, it's not exactly a point in favor that some bloodlines are as good or better than real clans as the bottom of the barrel clans are vastly weaker than the top clans. While it's true that a great variety of decks can win tournaments, it's better to have consistent turnover at the top.

>Wow, I don't get it. > >Most of the Bloodlines ARE, in fact, inherently competitive. The only >two that aren't are the Samedi and !Salubri, and those are even decent >when taken as partial clans. > >I'm not sure where you are basing your opinions on, but these clans can >all make brutally effective decks: > >Ahrimanes >Daughters >Blood Brothers >Salubri >Gargoyles >True Brujah >Harbingers of Skulls >Kiasyd Sorry, hate to take "sides," but I'm gonna have to back Derek and James on this one. I thought Derek's Bloodlines analysis was spot on and am also personally rather hesitant about opening the floodgates and letting more Bloodlines vampires and cards come through. If it makes you feel better, I can sympathize with your frustrations Bernie (with the !Salubri). >This is silliness. Especially the belief that the Pander are dominant. > >I do not believe I've seen a single Pander deck since the MRP of Legacy >of Pander... a misprinted card in the first place. Pander decks are still around. In particular, during storyline tournaments, they're one of the most viable options for anyone who wants to play weenies. >This is further silliness. Nine of twelve clans have PLENTY of >potential to win, and plenty of resources. I do agree that most of the Bloodlines can make competitive decks. I don't think however most of them are in the top-tier however. (The Ahrimanes, Blood Brothers, and the Salubri are the strongest IMO). Take a look at the storyline results for instance. During Meddling, Blood Brothers scored 3 wins, Ahrimanes 2 wins, and Salubri 1 win. During Hazimel, Ahrimanes had 3, and then Baali, Daughters, Harbingers, Kiasyd, Salubri, and even Samedi(!) each scored a win. In many cases, this is on par or even better than some of the "major clans." It's kind of sad that the Giovanni aren't really doing that much better than the Ahrimanes, given how many more resources they have. Thus the Bloodlines clans are good, though they are not in the top tier (but as James mentioned, they're not *supposed* to be). Thus I'd personally be happy to see no Bloodlines vampires for quite some time (despite my desire to see more !Tremere Slave Gargoyles of course). I also would personally support a scheme where Bloodlines vamps ended up only having even Group Numbers. Thus we'd see another 3 Salubri but in Group 4, and another 3 in Group 6. It would add some options, while keeping the bloodlines clans in the background, where they belong. Halcyan 2

>Not sure why you think Samedi are one of the weaker ones. Bunch of built in >+1 >bleeders with Obfuscate (and Fortitude). They are almost all overcosted, >Thanatosis blows, and they have clear deficiencies because of it, but I hear >bleeding at stealth (or unblockably) doesn't suck. Ignoring specialized trick decks (Turbo-Baron comes to mind), Samedi clan disciplines and THN cards seem to lean them towards combat, even though they don't really excel at it. Though they have some clever tricks to pull (Dawn Op + Withering is nasty or doing something nasty with Hidden Lurker), just like the !Salubri, they generally fall apart to Dodges and especially S:CE. Mainly because both clans have too specialized of a combat style (!Salubri needing melee weapons, Samedi using nasty strikes, though Compress is surprisingly good). >>Gargoyles > >Ignoring the use of Create Gargoyle, I wouldn't agree with this. Well, Gargoyles is an alternative to POT/FOR if you're not into Blood Brothers. And they do have some interesting clan cards that will soup them up (Bats, Hounds, and Cats oh my!). >>True Brujah > >Wouldn't agree with this either. However, True Brujah do do a pretty good >job >at the whole "we want you to mix individual bloodlines vampires with others" >philosophy. With each other, too many holes in what they can do. Lack >Celerity to mix well with Brujah/!Brujah. > Wow. I'd say that Trujah are amazingly good. They can be monsters at combat, especially with Lapse, and they have a lot of options presented to them with their Temporis actions. In addition, Clotho's Gift and Domain of Evernight even overshadow Freak Drive. >>Harbingers of Skulls > >Nor this. Really? I think the Harbingers are extremely powerful, especially the vampires. Unlike just about every other Bloodlines clan (save the Samedi and !Salubri), they get away scot-free without any clan weaknesses. Gisela is simply a monster with her special, and Agaitas can be pretty nasty as well. AUS FOR is very good for defense, and NEC provides a lot of flexibility. >>vampires... but you cannot tell me that Le Dinh Tho has not made a huge >>impact on the game. Raful has a home in any obf/dom deck, and Kanimana >>Belghazi with DOM/NEC is hardly an ill choice for the Giovanni. > >It does bother me, though, that the Nagaraja don't have anything to do >collectively. Agreed. I don't think it would have hurt to have a single clan card for them. Halcyan 2

> Black Hand > The Black Hand is a sect within a sect, an elite group of vampires > recognized as separate from all other Sabbat. The Black Hand (or simply > the Hand) is not truly a separate body. However, since all its members > are loyal to the Sabbat over all else. IIRC, that's the "false" hand party line. THe Black Hand is a sect that monitors all of Kindred Society. Their operatives operate in the Sabbat as the "black hand", and among the Camarilla as various Autarchs. I forget what their aims are. They fell apart after the Week of Nightmares, as that event somehow proved their agenda wrong, or something like that. > Ravnos Antitribu > Description: Much like the Nos, it is hard to tell Clan and antitribu > apart. False. Ravnos Antitribu placed sect over clan -- a very important distinction among Ravnos. They are NOT trusted by the "true" clan for this very reason. They also willingly sacrificed their freedom -- a sin to the Ravnos, who cherish free movement and free willa bove all things. Beyond that, simply Ravnos with the "Sabbat" tag, a la the 4 cap from Final Nights. > Children of Osiris > Somehow made once more into mortals by Osiris > Description: The light in the shadows. Hunters of their own kind, and > blood enemies of the Setites. > Disciplines: [Chose three] Bardo, Obeah, Thaumaturgy, Serpentis, I think they got morphed into Mummies when Mummy: The Ressurection came out. Could very well be wrong. > Laibon (bloodline) > Description: Strange guardians of the tribes of Africa. Filled with > wanderlust they act as dark protectors and medicine men. More a product for Dark Ages expansion, or a Kindred of the Ebon Kingdom project. They have no involvement with the rest of the world. > Description: It is said that the Nictuku are the true clan, and that the > Nosferatu are a bloodline of the Nictuku. Fortunately for the person who > said this, he didn't say it around a Nosferatu. More specifically, Absimilliard (the Nosferatu progenitor) blood bound all of his childer save one - Baba Yaga. She escaped him before he could, and used her potent magics to protect herself. All of clan Nosferatu descend from her. The Niktuku seek and destroy Baba Yaga and her line. > Kindred of the East (Bushi / Gaki) > Disciplines: (Bushi) - Celerity, Kai, Presence (Gaki) - Auspex, > Dominate, Rift > Weaknesses: Bushi and Gaki are two Western names for the Kuei-Jin. They don't use anything resembling Kindred Disciplines, and are in fact a different creature type entirely. They're a combination of vampires and Risen, and use a completely different ruleset. Using the existing cards to create them would likely offend KotE purists, since the powers do vastly different things, and come at tremendous costs in some cases (Cel and Pot equivalents are VERY dangerous to use, for examble, as they open the user up to frenzy). > Seraphim (Bloodline) Know absolutely nothing about these, must be from a relatively recent sourcebook. > Serpents of the Light (Bloodline) Simply Setites with the "Sabbat" tag, and possibly a flaw that indicates they cannot use Follower locations, etc. > Old Clan Tzimisce > Description: Lodged in the heart of the Carpathians, they still survive, > nursing the wounds of the Anarch Wars Most common is Dominate in, Vic out. They're really just a group that rejected Vicissitude as a concept. They called themselves "old Clan" just to make themselves sound more legitimate. > Tlacique: Warriors of Set > Inconnu? NOpe, a faction of the Followers of Set. They guard the temples, etc. > Bahari (aka: Followers of Lilith) > Disciplines: Obsfucate, Potence, Sublimate Wasn't aware you got a new discipline for being on a specific morality path. There again, I also haven't picked up a Vampire book in over a year, so they may have well added a bunch of new stuff. The term "Bahari" is usually used to denote someone on the Path of Lillith (or is it the Path of the dark Mother?). It's a morality path, much like the Path of Bones/Paradox/Blood/Typhon/Feral Heart/Metamorphosis/Night.

> If the bloodlines were without any real power, they would have > been wiped out long ago. Ah, but looking at the V:TM storyline, they do with great frequency die out. The Salubri were once a clan. They lost that status when Tremere diablerized Saulot. Then, they were rapidly slaughtered by the Tremere and their allies, to such an extent that up until recently only 7 remained. One decided to eschew the survivor's agenda of suriviving through flying under radar, and embraced the swarm tactics of the Sabbat - resulting in the Antitribu. The Salubri survive BECAUSE they have no real power. Because of this, they routinely escape notice. The Antitribu are a very (past five years) new development. The Gargoyles exist because it is convenient for the Tremere that they exist. They are creations of the Tremere, who have the power to keep them alive. The Blood Brothers exist because it was convenient to the Sabbat that they exist. With the loss of the Tremere Antitribu, the sect has lost it's ability to create more Blood Brothers. Within a decade, they'll likely be gone. The Harbingers have just emerged from a stasis imposed by their founder, who was diablerized by Giovanni centuries ago. They, too, are a recent phenomenon (past five years). Had they not been put in stasis, they would have been killed with the rest of their brethren. The Daughters are only a few centuries old (1700's at the oldest), and have no real power to themselves. Most exist because they're mistaken as Toreador, and as long as they keep making pretty music, the Toreador don't care. The Samedi aren't much older, and surivive because their mistaken as Nosferatu, and as long as they avoid the sewers, the Nosferatu really don't care. The Ahrimanes are already dead. They died in the last five years. The True Brujah and Nagarajah are fading fast. Their numbers, always low, have dwindled rapidly since the Week of Nightmares. The Baali survived extinction at the hands of the Salubri because they got the Tremere to kill the Salubri. They're frequently mistaken as Setites. Even by Setites. The Kiasyd are a creation of the Sabbat, and exist so long as they serve the sect's purposes. White Wolf Canon is loaded with bloolines that haven't survived -- the Lamia and the Lhiannon are two of my favorites, but there are more. That's the tragedy of the bloodlines -- they're constantly in danger of dying out. Fanboy

>Ignoring specialized trick decks (Turbo-Baron comes to mind), Samedi clan >disciplines and THN cards seem to lean them towards combat, even though they >don't really excel at it. Fortitude and Obfuscate lean them towards combat? Thanatosis's best cards - Dust to Dust and formerly Ashes to Ashes - have been combat defense! Wow, just what you need when no one can block you and you have Fortitude should anyone rush you. If people want to fight with them when their best competitive option is evasion bleed, that's not design's fault. >>>True Brujah >> >>Wouldn't agree with this either. However, True Brujah do do a pretty good >>job >>at the whole "we want you to mix individual bloodlines vampires with others" >>philosophy. With each other, too many holes in what they can do. Lack >>Celerity to mix well with Brujah/!Brujah. >> > > >Wow. I'd say that Trujah are amazingly good. They can be monsters at combat, >especially with Lapse, and they have a lot of options presented to them with >their Temporis actions. In addition, Clotho's Gift and Domain of Evernight >even >overshadow Freak Drive. Amazingly good in that no one has won a tournament with them? Amazingly good in that with their clan disciplines they lack: bounce, intercept, stealth? I don't think there's anything weak about Temporis. !Ventrue have Dominate. As a clan, they have severe problems which wouldn't hurt so much if they weren't scarce, but they are. >>>Harbingers of Skulls >> >>Nor this. > > >Really? I think the Harbingers are extremely powerful, especially the >vampires. >Unlike just about every other Bloodlines clan (save the Samedi and !Salubri), >they get away scot-free without any clan weaknesses. Gisela is simply a >monster >with her special, and Agaitas can be pretty nasty as well. AUS FOR is very >good >for defense, and NEC provides a lot of flexibility. And, they too often win?

"noodleboy" <nood...@iprimus.net.au> wrote > > but how effective can your Ahrimanes deck > really be with only a 5 vamp spread in your crypt and 7 Spiritus cards > to wreak havok with? Wait a second! Are you telling me that there are other Ahrimanes besides Howler??? (Somewhere in that rather sarcastic sentence above is the key to winning with the Ahrimanes :) > And I'm certain a bunch of people can post a bunch of "tournament > winning" decks built around Bloodlines. I've done pretty well with the Ahrimanes and I know Will Kristoff won a tourney recently also. They're not half as bad as a lot of people seem to think. In fact, I'm always surprised when people start dissing them. Makes me want to prove 'em wrong, you know? :) IMHO the Ahrimanes are the *strongest* of the Bloodlines set. Eventually, history will prove me right. You'll see... > But why only do the job half > assed? What is stopping WW doing a Bloodlines boost expansion? There was only so much space in Bloodlines. I was rather shocked to see how much they stuffed in all considering. I do agree that there are a few holes that need to be filled in order to make some clans/bloodlines a bit more competitve (or competitive period). I'm not sure that a full expansion is needed though. Were a future expansion like "Inconnu" or "Aquatic Vampires of the Pacific Ocean" to be printed, throwing in about 10-20 cards that fill some Bloodline holes would not be unwelcome. Cheers, WES

On Fri, 16 May 2003 01:15:57 -0400, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >In message <3ec44b52...@netnews.attbi.com>, >berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM mumbled something about: > >>We play card games primarily for 3 reasons >>1. They provide entertainment >>2. A good CCG maintains a level competetive environment >>3. The chance to build more social ties >> >>In regards to Bloodlines, it succeeds on points 1&3 while failing >>point 2. By design, Bloodlines was developed to mix in with existing >>cards to create new strategies. Unfortunately, almost the entire set >>needs a shot in the arm so as to compete on a level playing field. > >Wow, I don't get it. > >Most of the Bloodlines ARE, in fact, inherently competitive. The only >two that aren't are the Samedi and !Salubri, and those are even decent >when taken as partial clans. > >I'm not sure where you are basing your opinions on, but these clans can >all make brutally effective decks: Personal observation and playing with decks that I or others have built. As a person noted further down in this thread, it's easy to note that there is a distinct lack of versatility with a number of the Bloodlines. This is also problematic (IMHO). Unlike some people, I don't base my entire judgements of the CCG on what is contained in the winning deck archive. >Ahrimanes Decent, and they have a way of making more thanks to Feral Spirit >Daughters Turned out pretty fair >Blood Brothers One-Trick Ponies for the most part. Should have had 6 vamps in their circles rather than 5. >Salubri Designed well per Bloodlines objectives >Gargoyles Interesting, but the Slave mechanic screws them over from being competetive as an Independent clan. Which I believe they are considered Indies currently by WW. Would have been super-nice to have an additional Slave for Cam/Sabbat. Or they could have just not bothered with distinguishing a slave's ties to a particular sect. >True Brujah Like the Salubri, came out well for the sets objective >Harbingers of Skulls Interesting, but not power-brokers. >Kiasyd It's nice that they mix so well with Lasombra, but they could have been built up as a stand-alone faction. Didn't have to be just filler material. >The ninth and tenth are Samedi and !Salubri. Not as convenient, >admittedly, but certainly usable in combination with other clans. Not much experience with the Samedi, but they do appear to be a Bloodline that should be designed to stand on their own. When I say "Stand on/by thier own", I'm thinking primarily of deck building with the storyline format guidelines. Variety is good, but the only thing I hear good about the Samedi is Baron-Turbo decks. !Salubr should have had another Vampire. >The eleventh is the Baali; who, while not for the amateur deckbuilder, are >certainly not weak To win, they are relegated to one-trick pony status primarily resorting to Stealth-Bleed or possbily Stealth/Presence Vote. The really interesting cards for them in Bloodlines are ALL RARES, so outside of a handfull of people you aren't likely to see much else out of them > The twelfth is a scarce clan (Nagaraja), and as >such is difficult to play effectively by itself with only three >vampires... but you cannot tell me that Le Dinh Tho has not made a huge >impact on the game. Raful has a home in any obf/dom deck, and Kanimana >Belghazi with DOM/NEC is hardly an ill choice for the Giovanni. Interesting and very playable Vampires, with absolutely no flavor. Hard to get a feel as to what's Cool about being a Nagaraja when they don't have a single card of their own to speak of. >The facts are so far removed from your blind assertion of "almost the >entire set needs a shot in the arm" that it leads me to believe that >you've possibly never actually PLAYED with any of the Bloodlines. Nah, you just like to rant. I'm okay with that though.. >>V:TES design takes it's cues from the World of Darkness such that the >>designers didn't want to give these minor clans too much power. >>If too effective, they could dethrone the primary clans from their >>dominance in the CCG (Ventrue, Pander, Ravnos, etc.). > >This is silliness. Especially the belief that the Pander are dominant. They are a Sabbat clan, hence one of the perceived to be dominate clans, if you don't like them, don't play them. I won't twist your arm. >I do not believe I've seen a single Pander deck since the MRP of Legacy >of Pander... a misprinted card in the first place. That's odd, I could swear I'd read a number of Pander decks being played in England over the last year. >>So what we have now are a number of minor clans that see marginal >>play, as thier potential to win is hampered by lack of resources. > >This is further silliness. Nine of twelve clans have PLENTY of >potential to win, and plenty of resources. I don't mind being silly Derek. It is just a card game after all. >>If the bloodlines were without any real power, they would have >>been wiped out long ago. > >This is the only non-silly statement. They DO have real power. Some do, some don't. There are some serious power gaps, and it would be nice to see some of the Bloodlines clans elevate above one-trick pony status. Would also be a treat if more of the non-scarce groups were able to more evenly compete in Storyline settings. >>================================== >> >>I could probably elaborate on a few of the points above if necessary. > >Sure. Go for it. Don't forget about the man on the grassy knoll; as >long as we're into conspiracy theories about V:TES design... Oh, I haven't forgotten about him by any means ;-) I'll be sure to put you in the category of people that don't have any interest in expanding on tbe Bloodlines theme, which kindof was the point of this thread. BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03051...@posting.google.com>... > > The Bloodlines aren't intended to be on an even keel with the regular > > clans. > > > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html > > > > Due to its nature (most bloodlines are not designed to be played > > on their own, but are designed to enhance other decks built > > around the more widely-known clans) > > > Blood Brothers don't enhance many other decks. And 7 Sanguinus cards > just don't cut it IMHO. Blood Brothers may not have that much flexibility, but the 7 Sanguinus cards are almost exactly right for the clan: Octopod is supdily good compared to Blur Coag Enitity is the rush you HAVE to block Gestalt is an awesome blocking card Walk of Cain gives a bleed boost not reachable by most bruise decks Brothers Blood gives great resource management potential Unnatural Bond is a great gen option Coordianted attacks is a bit average So only one of the 7 cards is mediocre, leaving 6 very strong cards that work with extreme focus for the intended focus of the clan. Sure, the BBs are a one trick pony, but they are almost uniquely set up above all over clans in the game to do that trick. All the new disciplines need a boost. Sure, > you might squeeze some Daughters in with the Ventrue, The Daughters are strong even on their own as power voters with more stealth than their ventrue or toreador "cousins". Melpomine beats the crap out of Presence in politics, and they have Presence for bleeds. Plus they are all pretty cheap making for an efficient crypt design. Don't forget the new tech that was introduced - Choir. Although a way off perfect, this is pretty close to a new way of ousting - unbounceable "bleeds" which are stackable more so than Enticement. Tricky, but do-able. and Kyasid work > well with the Lasombra, We have seen quite a few examples of how the Kiasyd work well on their own. Riddle Phantastique is a stupidly powerful card, and they have some of the best vampires going (Bart is a goldmine, Julia is very powerful, and check out their uncontestable "I can't believe how good he is" Archbishop). but how effective can your Ahrimanes deck > really be with only a 5 vamp spread in your crypt and 7 Spiritus cards > to wreak havok with? You are forgetting Feral Spirit to allow Gangrels/!Gangrels to sign up. Sanguine Instruction was also a phenominal addition to the set. With little effort you can get a competitive set of vampires going outside of the initial 5. Spiritus has enormous potential as a blocking discipline that compliements Animalism extrmemly well. I have yet to see the Ahrimanes used to even half their potential after a year. They are possibly the strongest unit to come out of Bloodlines. > And I'm certain a bunch of people can post a bunch of "tournament > winning" decks built around Bloodlines. But why only do the job half > assed? What is stopping WW doing a Bloodlines boost expansion? They may well do so in time, but considering the impact that only a fraction of the set has had on the game, you've got to give it a bit of time to figure out where to take it: My arguement as to why Bloodlines is the best thing we have seen since the original VTES set: It was the most igeniously thought out set since the original set. It came close to changing the way we approached decks with the quality of the cards and the ingenuity of execution. It introduced the "double discipline" card (more poke for your money, less general utility due to the need for 2 disciplines). It introduced the multi discipline card - mainly as a reaction to the short order of discipline users, but still gave excellent utility. Introducing "Scare", "Infernal", and "Sterile" disadvantages all gave us something to think about, and these are all totally fair for the power you get. You want examples of why the set was good? 1) Mattieus. Every (and I mean EVERY) tournament I have seen in the last year has had a deck that features this tank of a vampire. In the last 2 tournies I've been at, his presence on the table meant that one deck was totally screwed - since his "other" special screws Setite casual bleeds. I saw a Night moves / enticement deck using setites die as it couldn't get the edge at all. Stupidly good, but without overdoing it. 2) Lee Dinh Zho. Another perennial favourite. His ability is, again, a hot tip and he shows up like a bad smell to most events. 3) Call the Great Beast. It was great to see Jon Cooper win a tournament with a deck centred around this, but the imagination that went into this card was superb. 4) Nose of the Hound. This card shows up more than Ambush in most decks I've seen lately. It's amazing how many combat monsters have Aus! This is of the top of my head. There are many, many more examples of individual cards that have real power and have changed what people bring to events. The cards have had a massive impact on the scene and a huge number of decks utiliise Bloodlines cards... arguably more so that CE. The cards are competitive and imaginiative. Compare to Final Nights (mainly the vampires are used). Most of the "new" cards in that set rarely see the light of day (Banner of Nutrality? Thrones Crumble? Venitian Conference?) simply becuase there are better ways of doing things by the clans in question. However, with Bloodlines, since options are pretty limited, we see the majority of the availible cards used when someone elects to play. As such, there isn't much of the set that has not been seen at a tournament in the last year. The only two downsides, as pointed out above, come in the form of 2 clans who were below par. However, compare to the Nosferatu (around nearly 10 years and still pretty weak on the whole) and the caitiff / pander (now "bargain basement crypt-fillers" at best) the Samedi and the !Salubri are reasonably competant. Bloodlines is fine as it is, but as has been mentioned is NOT for the casual player, it's designed for the player that has a deep understanding of the game and wants to try something different. DH

> Geez Wes, you're gonna make me try and find all the links from months > ago? :-P I'll try and track the page back down later tonight. Probably a fan submission, honestly. White Wolf has yet to come up with a skill name THAT lame. > Of what little I know, there is really little known about them anyhow. > I would think that the Nictuku could/should be presented in VTES as a > solid fully-functional Independent clan. No. The Niktuku are the monsters in teh closet, when BEST developed by White Wolf. They are all Methuselah-level. ALL of them. They are things that make an entire CLAN tremble in fear -- when they're gathered. Might as well make a card for Ennoia, Vedhartha, Troile, or Absmilliard (all proginitors of some of the clans). Yes, they're THAT powerful. Bernie, a word of advice. Don't base your research on WW on what you find on fan sites. The majority of it is created by fans who really just want L33t Sk33ls to ape around on. If you don't want to buy the books, fine -- most stores are cool with you flipping through it a few minutes at a time. The information will be a lot more accurate, and you won't see some of the outright silly stuff (Grotequous?) Fanboy

On 16 May 2003 07:09:17 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: <snip> >Sorry, hate to take "sides," but I'm gonna have to back Derek and James on this >one. I thought Derek's Bloodlines analysis was spot on and am also personally >rather hesitant about opening the floodgates and letting more Bloodlines >vampires and cards come through. If it makes you feel better, I can sympathize >with your frustrations Bernie (with the !Salubri). Actually has little to do with the !Salubri and the set as a whole. Bloodlines was like Barney going to a micro-brewery and getting told that they only had "lite" beer on tap that day. <Snip> >Thus the Bloodlines clans are good, though they are not in the top tier (but as >James mentioned, they're not *supposed* to be). Which is flawed thinking (by the designers, not James) when you're trying to sell an expansion of cards to players that want to build decks around wacky clans, rather then use the whole set as filler for other stuff. If you could buy a Pound of Steak or a Pound of Meatloaf at the same price, which would you be likely to spend your money on? (Sorry, we don't serve Veggies in the WoD). >Thus I'd personally be happy to >see no Bloodlines vampires for quite some time (despite my desire to see more >!Tremere Slave Gargoyles of course). I also would personally support a scheme >where Bloodlines vamps ended up only having even Group Numbers. Thus we'd see >another 3 Salubri but in Group 4, and another 3 in Group 6. It would add some >options, while keeping the bloodlines clans in the background, where they >belong. That makes sense for Vampires of the Scarce variety, but doesn't do a whole lot for what I consider the under-represented from Bloodlines. It's always good to see/hear the diversity of thought out there. >Halcyan 2 BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

Personally I'm happy with the way the bloodlines worked out. Sure some were more powerful than others but you can say the same about the clans in the game already. Each fits a niche and works well there. The Bloodlines are the same. Sure the Samedi may not be that great but they can work very well in with the Giovanni, as do the Harbingers. As for what's coming, I really would like to see a couple new Bloodline vamps (no new bloodlines though) in each (or every other) new expansion. I really don't want to see any of the Kuei-Jin other than as allies or perhaps as a Master card. ------------------------- Cambridge by Night. http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html

<berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM> wrote in message news:3ec3d924....@netnews.attbi.com... > >One thing you haven't mentioned is the distinction between the Lost Tribe > >and the Tal'Mahe'Ra. Both were Gehenna cults of sorts, and ended up merging > >to become the Black Hand as they are in modern times. The latter were much > >more secretive though, and many Hand members were not aware that a 'double > >membership' was going on around them involving this Tal'Mahe'Ra or 'True > >Hand' as well. The True Hand were like a sect within a sect, but their plans > >were scuppered when their secret headquarters in the Shadowlands (the > >shadow-city of Enoch) was bombed to Oblivion by the Smiling Lord of the > >Heirarchy (see the Wraith: the Oblivion RPG for more info). > > Interesting. But is that something that would need to be taken into > consideration in the modern setting? Well maybe. AFAIK they're not gone, just severely reduced in numbers (thanks to Enoch and Ur-Shulgi). The interesting thing is that most Nagaraja have ties to this sect, and it apparently has ties with far-eastern world of the Kindred and the courts of the Kuei-Jin. > >> > Inconnu? > >> > >> This is a sect that consists of almost exclusively elder vampires who have > >> divorced themselves from the "Jyhad"... or so they think. Dracula is a > >> member of this sect allegedly. Note that there has been very little > >> officially written about these guys for a very long time to the best of my > >> knowledge. And a lot of what was writtem is not canon. This is probably > >> because a lot of what was written was utter shite. > > > >Yup again I'm glad WW have kept these guys largely a mystery. The sect > >definitely exists, and Inconnu Monitors are included in several city > >sourcebooks for Vampire. The story goes that after the fall of Rome, and > >then Consantinople, a number of elders grew disgusted at the consequences of > >their political maneuvering and withdrew from all Kindred affairs entirely. > >They are allegedly mostly Ventrue, Malkavian and True Brujah and although > >they try to keep tabs on what is happening, they never get involved or lend > >their support. > > Which is decent material to pack into another Bloodlines based > expansion. Of course all this is pretty much "what-if" stuff, and > depenedent on whether White Wolf would be interested in a similar > expansion to bloodlines. Well I don't know. If they move onto an 'old world' expansion like Steve Wieck was hinting at on the developer chat a while back, then that would be an ideal opportunity to throw in lots of old crusty vampires, and new affiliations such as the Oradea League, and the Inconnu. Maybe the latter would not be allowed to cast votes in referendums cast by non-Inconnu, but they could have special votes or actions of their own? > >- Surviving Cappadocians. Lazarus the progeny of Cappadocius is rumoured to > >still be alive, and if so he may have sired more of his own. In the CCG they > >would probably get their own Discipline to contrast them from the Giovanni > >and the Samedi. Again these guys would definitely be Scarce. > > Wouldn't expect to see these either. Obvious specualtion is that any > surviving Cappadocians are probably the current Harbingers. The Harbingers are the survivors out of the many 'weak' Cappadocians that were incarcerated underground and abandoned by their founder a *very* long time ago. To be fair, they should have been given Mortis as a Discipline rather Necromancy anyway. The amount of time they spent in isolation and in the dark fighting and feeding off one another has made them all a bit crazy, and certainly explains their mission of vengeance. I would nevertheless draw quite a clear line between these Harbingers and any surviving Cappadocians sired by Lazarus (or anyone else). > >- The Sabbat Inquisition, another mini-sect within the Sabbat devoted to > >rooting out and eradicating infernalism > > Part of a Mortals-type expansion you think? The more I think on it, > this could easily be thematicly correct with another bloodlines-type > set. The Sabbat Inquisition are *not* mortals :) They're a pretty scary and potent force within the Sabbat, although not as much as the Hand, and deserve a mention at some point. If I had any say in things at all, then as well as having 'old world' and 'mortal/allies' card set expansions, I would also push for a 'holy/unholy' themed set that would include more infernal minions, new Discipline cards for Dark Thaumaturgy, as well as stuff from the alternate ends of the spectrum, including rules for minions with True Faith (possibly a good point to bring in elements from Demon: the Fallen too?) > I was trying to keep the list to the most likely inclusions. If there > is anything worth including from the Africa rulebook, someone be sure to > let me know. Will do! :) Regards, Mike

In article <f99d61c5.03051...@posting.google.com>, The Fanboy <texas...@yahoo.com> wrote: >IIRC, that's the "false" hand party line. THe Black Hand is a sect >that monitors all of Kindred Society. Their operatives operate in the >Sabbat as the "black hand", and among the Camarilla as various >Autarchs. I forget what their aims are. They fell apart after the >Week of Nightmares, as that event somehow proved their agenda wrong, >or something like that. The whole 'True Black Hand lurks in the Shadowlands with torporous Caine and Antediluvians' thing was, IMO, incredibly retarded and I'm glad it's been done away with. >> Serpents of the Light (Bloodline) >Simply Setites with the "Sabbat" tag, and possibly a flaw that >indicates they cannot use Follower locations, etc. Serpents are culturally so distinct from Followers that I'd find this unsatisfying. I think, of all the antitribu, these are the ones most deserving of being treated as a separate clan. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 16 May 2003 04:16:41 -0700, texas...@yahoo.com (The Fanboy) wrote: >> Geez Wes, you're gonna make me try and find all the links from months >> ago? :-P I'll try and track the page back down later tonight. > >Probably a fan submission, honestly. White Wolf has yet to come up >with a skill name THAT lame. Um, that statement would be open for debate :-) >> Of what little I know, there is really little known about them anyhow. >> I would think that the Nictuku could/should be presented in VTES as a >> solid fully-functional Independent clan. > >No. It's called an opinion, and yours has been respectfully noted.. >The Niktuku are the monsters in teh closet, when BEST developed by >White Wolf. They are all Methuselah-level. ALL of them. They are >things that make an entire CLAN tremble in fear -- when they're >gathered. Might as well make a card for Ennoia, Vedhartha, Troile, or >Absmilliard (all proginitors of some of the clans). Yes, they're THAT >powerful. So the Nictuku don't or wouldn't embrace? To the best of my knowledge there isn't much in print on them at all, mostly conjecture and speculation. Of course, if I'm wrong I don't have a real problem being shown as such. I'm certain there are a lot of other people like myself who just play the CCG and operate with scant knowledge of the WoD. Here's an updated link for the info I found earlier. http://www.patman.org/wod/clans/nickutu.asp Is there really some reason why the Nickutu would not be embracing any childer? It does look to be a fan compilation, but I found the material presented to be engaging at the time I was putting this list together. The point of which (that seems to get lost at this thread goes on) is to show some areas where the VTES CCG can be expand, though my primary focus at the time was the remaining Bloodlines and perceived gaps in the aforementioned set.. >Bernie, a word of advice. > >Don't base your research on WW on what you find on fan sites. The >majority of it is created by fans who really just want L33t Sk33ls to >ape around on. If you don't want to buy the books, fine -- most >stores are cool with you flipping through it a few minutes at a time. >The information will be a lot more accurate, and you won't see some of >the outright silly stuff (Grotequous?) Already knew that, which is in part why I started this thread in the first place. I don't find it silly at all to be discussing which remaining RPG material could be used for inclusion into future CCG expansions. The fan-created stuff, while obviously in no way cannon, IMO should not be discarded out of hand as it could be used as potential sources of inspiration. It is true that you do need to pull a lot of weeds to get to the flowers. The WoD already has a number of inclusions that if to viewed without existing knowledge of the RPG sources, would seem to be fan-created. Gargoyles are a good example of this. >Fanboy Regards, BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

>1) Mattieus. Every (and I mean EVERY) tournament I have seen in the >last year has had a deck that features this tank of a vampire. In the >last 2 tournies I've been at, his presence on the table meant that one >deck was totally screwed - since his "other" special screws Setite >casual bleeds. I saw a Night moves / enticement deck using setites die >as it couldn't get the edge at all. Stupidly good, but without >overdoing it. Not exactly the most ideal situation, but the Setite deck could always have tried bleeding its predator to get the Edge and *then* playing the Enticement... Halcyan 2

In message <3ec4c620...@netnews.attbi.com>, berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM writes: >>Thus the Bloodlines clans are good, though they are not in the top tier (but as >>James mentioned, they're not *supposed* to be). > >Which is flawed thinking (by the designers, not James) when you're >trying to sell an expansion of cards to players that want to build decks >around wacky clans, rather then use the whole set as filler for other >stuff. Possibly. There are two obvious ways of doing "wacky cards". One is Magic: Unglued - make them entirely fun and optional. Then you can do different things which will never impact on the game as a whole. Let us assume that we don't choose that route, however. We choose a route where they'll be real cards in the real game. Now, do we make everything super-wacky? And each clan can do its own wacky thing in its own wacky way and win? Well, we could. But doesn't that turn into Rage? Effectively, here's a new expansion that completely changes the whole face of the game - not just by adding new cards, but by completely changing the face of what is done and how it's done.[0] One obvious integration method is to use them as real clans. Just make them absolutely normal. They interact with the game in the same old way. They're called the Salubri, but you've got 15 of them, and they could just as easily be Ravnos or Brujah. And you make their cards exactly the same power level as the rest of the game. One other obvious integration method is to make them limited in some fashion, but with unique facets. They become interesting, but vulnerable, stepping outside some of the obvious tenets of the *rest* of the game, but doing so in a fashion that is inherently screwed over by some other issues. >If you could buy a Pound of Steak or a Pound of Meatloaf at the same >price, which would you be likely to spend your money on? (Sorry, we >don't serve Veggies in the WoD). Taking a food metaphor, then. You start off with a meal. It's very basic, but everything works. Roast lamb, some mashed potato, some peas... everything pretty much works together, though there's some variety. You want to extend the meal. So you pick interesting things that provide flavour and texture, but that otherwise blend in seamlessly. The Ravnos are the gravy, the Lasombra are the parsnips. Now we want to add wacky clans. Pour some custard on top. Throw a few cherries in. And wrap the edge of the plate in squirty cream. Or perhaps you add a little on the side. It changes the flavour of the meal overall, but doesn't overall detract from the experience, enhancing the experience for those that want it without forcing everyone to pay attention. One fundamental problem with the line of thought is: "when you're trying to sell an expansion of cards to players that want to build decks around wacky clans" Are you? Are you indeed? Now, if you can sell a stand-alone set for players that want to build wacky clans that won't impact on the game for everyone else, they can have their fun. (In some ways, this is mirrored in the World of Darkness setting - those wanting power-combat can play Game X, those wanting deep philosophical torment can play Game Y.) You have to remember that the way that Bloodlines was implemented means that it impacts on the game - maybe not as heavily as it could, but it still impacts. So what you're trying to do is not as simple as "sell an expansion of cards to players that want..." You're also remembering that you don't want to scare off all the players who don't want the game changing beneath their feet. How many people threw up their hands and said "I'm not going to play" when things like 7/7 happened? How many more would look at a full-blown wacky clan Bloodlines and say "This is a completely different game to the one I signed up for"? Yet at the same time, Bloodlines as it was implemented allows for a great deal of subtlety on the part of players. No-one is runaway unstoppable, and many of the cards can be brought in anyway. For instance, Strength of the Bear can still be very useful to Animalism decks. I wouldn't say no to it with a Gangrel deck, for instance. Extra damage on an aggravated hand strike? I wouldn't say no. But if you go for super-wacky as opposed to temperate wacky, you either lose that option (because the clans now stand up for themselves entirely) or you go unbalanced by leaving it in. By creating a set of wacky clans that do wacky things in wacky ways, how many players are you going to scare off? [0] This is particularly exacerbated in some games by a lack of generic defence (many actions in V:TES are vulnerable to generic intercept) and multiple, changing victory conditions - which are added to. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <9e10847c.03051...@posting.google.com>, hamdamcwa <dave...@hotmail.com> writes: >Compare to Final Nights (mainly the vampires are used). Most of the >"new" cards in that set rarely see the light of day (Banner of >Nutrality? Thrones Crumble? Venitian Conference?) simply becuase >there are better ways of doing things by the clans in question. That's slightly one-sided. Take, for instance, Free States Rant, Charisma, Clandestine Contract, Creepshow Casino, Club Zombie, Week of Nightmares, Shambling Hordes and so on, all of which are pretty useful cards. Additional to that, of course, are all the vampires. No expansion gets every card played all the time. If it did, it's quite possible that that expansion has significantly upped the power level of the game and you either have to play that expansion or die. Magic has suffered from similar problems in the past - either use this new tech, or don't compete. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Most of the >>"new" cards in that set rarely see the light of day (Banner of >>Nutrality? Thrones Crumble? Venitian Conference?) simply becuase >>there are better ways of doing things by the clans in question. Banner of Neutrality is a damn good card. I prefer to use that in my decks than some other similar cards. I'll admit that I have never seen Thrones Crumble and Ventian Conference played. [ quoted text not captured ]