[HEY!] Black Hand Previews

My prince has been errant for the fall semester, wandering hither and yon and generally reprazenting Pittsburgh properly. Anyway, he managed to get a look at some Black Hand last weekend. With his permission, I'll just post the email he sent to our playgroup's mailing list. If, for whatever reason, you don't want to spoil the new set for yourself, by all means don't read any further. My prince's report was as follows: "So at ICC (a LARP-related convention in St. Louis, MO this past weekend) there was Black Hand for sale and I got to see a good bit of it. It's my impression that this set is just generally powered-up from the existing cards in play. Personally, I find this disappointing because it can lead to the degeneration of the game. From a business perspective, it makes complete sense to me. "I can confirm with 100% accuracy that Ian Forrestal is reprinted, and in fact he comes in the !Tremere starter deck, along with Rev Blackwood, and Infernal Familiar. The vampires feel slightly more powerful to me, but I don't mind that too much because they're group 3, and thus you have to sacrifice group 1 vamps to use them. The minion cards are very powerful, though. There's the new master: archetype cards, that get played on Sabbat vamps who can only have one archetype. They go something like "If this vamp successfully bleeds your prey, it gains a blood.", or "If this vamp torporizes or burns another vamp (and is ready), it games a blood." I could be slightly off with the mechanics, but that's the gist of it. There are a few cards that stand out in my mind: "Advance Goratrix, Camarilla, burns a !Tremere as an action. "A !tremere action card, usable by a tapped vampire. Leave torpor at 0 blood cost. "aus cel combo card: +1 intercept and a manuever if combat occurs; AUS CEL: +2 intercept and a manuever if combat occurs. "obf ani combo action mod card: gain 1 vote; OBF ANI combo action mod card: gain 3 votes. "I must admit I was a bit disappointed by Anarchs. Black Hand looks to be very powerful, and while there are some cards that will only be usable if you have a lot of the set, there are still plenty of cards that are useful even if you buy 1 pack." I'm about peeing myself here. And I guess we know now why the folks at White Wolf decided to bring back !Tremere to V:TES. Kushiel

> "So at ICC (a LARP-related convention in St. Louis, MO this past > weekend) there was Black Hand for sale and I got to see a good bit of What the Fuck? How was there BH for sale? I thought it wasn't released for 2 more weeks? What the Hell is a pre release about? When Camarilla came out, WW sold it at Gen Con almost 3 weeks earlier than the actual release date. Was this WW? David Oros Pisseed off Prince of Ann Arbor

> "So at ICC (a LARP-related convention in St. Louis, MO this past > weekend) there was Black Hand for sale and I got to see a good bit of > it. It's my impression that this set is just generally powered-up > from the existing cards in play. Personally, I find this > disappointing because it can lead to the degeneration of the game. > From a business perspective, it makes complete sense to me. If it's true : :-( > "I can confirm with 100% accuracy that Ian Forrestal is reprinted, > and in fact he comes in the !Tremere starter deck, along with Rev > Blackwood, and Infernal Familiar. The vampires feel slightly more > powerful to me, but I don't mind that too much because they're group > 3, and thus you have to sacrifice group 1 vamps to use them. Nonsense. There are no Sabbat Group 1. Or is he talking about new Camarilla ? > The > minion cards are very powerful, though. There's the new master: > archetype cards, that get played on Sabbat vamps who can only have > one archetype. They go something like "If this vamp successfully > bleeds your prey, it gains a blood.", A Giovanni's dream... Too bad it's only for Sabbat. Good for the Obt users, though... or "If this vamp torporizes or > burns another vamp (and is ready), it games a blood." I could be > slightly off with the mechanics, but that's the gist of it. There > are a few cards that stand out in my mind: > > "Advance Goratrix, Camarilla, burns a !Tremere as an action. ?!?! Totally roleplay, but if true, would be a monstruous hoser for the !Tremere !! > "A !tremere action card, usable by a tapped vampire. Leave torpor at > 0 blood cost. Good, not incredible. > "aus cel combo card: +1 intercept and a manuever if combat occurs; > AUS CEL: +2 intercept and a manuever if combat occurs. Very good. > "obf ani combo action mod card: gain 1 vote; OBF ANI combo action > mod card: gain 3 votes. Who said the Nosfies couldn't vote ?? Now they really will be very good at that... > "I must admit I was a bit disappointed by Anarchs. Black Hand looks > to be very powerful, and while there are some cards that will only be > usable if you have a lot of the set, there are still plenty of cards > that are useful even if you buy 1 pack." A little like Bloodlines, then... When does the damn preview come to confirm / infirm all that ?!? ----- Orpheus

Orpheus expounded: > ?!?! Totally roleplay, but if true, would be a monstruous hoser for the > !Tremere !! Looks like the !Tremere are getting some really nice power-cards too though, and it's only going to crop up occasionally, and it will be blockable (not as if the !Trem can't intercept or Goratrix is the master of Stealth now is it? -besides you can always put Gora in your !Tre deck).

>"I can confirm with 100% accuracy that Ian Forrestal is reprinted, >and in fact he comes in the !Tremere starter deck, along with Rev >Blackwood, and Infernal Familiar. Infernal Familiar (as in the retainer)? Not Infernal Pact? Also, are the other Group 2 !Tremere reprinted as well? No Nephandi? No Succubi? No Gargoyle Slave? =P >The vampires feel slightly more >powerful to me, but I don't mind that too much because they're group >3, and thus you have to sacrifice group 1 vamps to use them. Well, in my personal opinion, some of the recent vampires have really been pushing the envelope in regards to the power curve. But that could just be me. Nothing as bad as the original Sabbat but I really think vamps have been getting better and better point-wise. (Especially from CE onwards). >There's the new master: >archetype cards, that get played on Sabbat vamps who can only have >one archetype. They go something like "If this vamp successfully >bleeds your prey, it gains a blood.", or "If this vamp torporizes or >burns another vamp (and is ready), it games a blood." Neat. I wonder how useful this will turn out (compared to say, Trifles, which I still feel are underplayed). >"Advance Goratrix, Camarilla, burns a !Tremere as an action. Ugh. As I mentioned in a previous post, the !Tremere really don't need yet *another* very powerful clan-hoser (that burns them outright). Grrrr... On the bright side, my ideas for a !Tremere Derange deck just got an additional boost. Focus the deck on Ayelea and the new Goratrix. Derange other vampires with Malkavians, use Malkavian Dementia and either Golconda or Minion Tap then CI to !Tremere and burn. With Ayelea, you can potentially burn the newly turned !Tremere to Antediluvian Awakening or Khobar Towers. To get larger vamps, you can either use "carrier vamps" (mid-cap Malks Derange small weenies who can then pass it on to 11-caps immediately). Or even better, just throw a pair of Obfuscate skill cards on Ayelea and/or Goratrix, making them old enough to Derange IC members. Sounds like fun! >"A !tremere action card, usable by a tapped vampire. Leave torpor at >0 blood cost. Initially, when I first saw this I was like "big deal I wish it was something more useful." But the more I think about it, the more and more potential I see. This card circumvents the two main problems of torpor - waste of an action and waste of blood. Very valuable. Also, I can see good synergy with Burst of Sunlight. Weenie bleeds, gets blocked, Bursts to send opposing minion and self to torpor, but you can maintain your momentum by getting out of torpor for free. Also, this can be a more blood-efficient way of getting a Rutor's Hand. Those are my initial thoughts so far. Hopefully, the card won't be nerfed by very prohibitive restrictions (i.e. once per game, if blocked you burn or get diablerized without Blood Hunt, etc.) but I really do see a lot of potential. >"aus cel combo card: +1 intercept and a manuever if combat occurs; >AUS CEL: +2 intercept and a manuever if combat occurs. > Okay. Doesn't seem *significantly* better than Spirit's Touch unless you're running a lot of inferior auspex or a lot of AUS CEL. I'm guessing Toreador/!Toreador, and Vizier Assamites will be the main beneficiaries of this card. >"obf ani combo action mod card: gain 1 vote; OBF ANI combo action >mod card: gain 3 votes. Hmm...interesting. My initial thought was the Nosferatu Princes was already strong enough as it is but after a little more analysis, this seems to help !Nosferatu more than Nos. Outside of Jara Drory, the Nosferatu are relatively lacking in ANI OBF. Have to go to 9-caps to get the next titled vamp with ANI OBF. !Nosferatu on the other hand have both Christianius and Ox with ANI OBF at 6-cap. Throw in Calebos and the new Teresita and you have a much more viable vote machine. I am also interested in seeing a Presence Nosferatu vote deck. Just watch Ellison BO for 4 votes and then ANI OBF for another 3. Talk about a monster! =D >I'm about peeing myself here. >And I guess we know now why the folks at White Wolf decided to bring >back !Tremere to V:TES. Did I miss something? Why? So they could get toasted by the new Goratrix? ='( Halcyan 2

>Looks like the !Tremere are getting some really nice power-cards too >though, and it's only going to crop up occasionally, and it will be >blockable (not as if the !Trem can't intercept or Goratrix is the >master of Stealth now is it? -besides you can always put Gora in your >!Tre deck). Assuming that the new Goratrix has the same discipline spread, that is generally true. With his initial discipline spread, he can only gain stealth via Plasmic Form. On the other hand, Goratrix does have THA for a +3 stealth Magic of the Smith that fetches a Changeling Skin Mask. And once he has that, he can be using Forgotten Labyrinth, burning each of your vampires at +3 stealth...kinda sucks, eh? Also, one shouldn't have to force !Tremere decks to meta against Goratrix by putting him in your deck (plus you might not actually draw him). Halcyan 2

>> powerful to me, but I don't mind that too much because they're group >> 3, and thus you have to sacrifice group 1 vamps to use them. > >Nonsense. There are no Sabbat Group 1. Or is he talking about new Camarilla I think he meant that you couldn't use them with old Camarilla Group 1 vampires. >A Giovanni's dream... Too bad it's only for Sabbat. Good for the Obt users, >though... Into the Fire for you! =P >> "Advance Goratrix, Camarilla, burns a !Tremere as an action. > >?!?! Totally roleplay, but if true, would be a monstruous hoser for the >!Tremere !! Agreed. I am very very very sad... ='( >> "A !tremere action card, usable by a tapped vampire. Leave torpor at >> 0 blood cost. > >Good, not incredible. Although I'm still waiting to actually see the card, as I said before, it has good synergy with Burst of Sunlight and inferior Rutor's Hand. One other question for those who have seen the new cards - how is the art? Halcyan 2

no sabbat group 3? I think you will find that the sabbat published in Anarchs and Camarilla were almost all group 3. Simcof "Orpheus" <orph...@NOSPAMfree.fr> wrote in message news:<3f9dab82$0$27569$626a...@news.free.fr>... [ quoted text not captured ]

> When does the damn preview come to confirm / infirm all that ?!? I can provide another witness to some of the cards. The Cel/Aus intercept card and the ani/obf vote mod are definiately in the set. I didn't see the advanced Goratrix, however. I didn't get the feeling that there was escalation as much as the original post implied. Certainly, there were some powerful cards. Most of them were appropriately costed, however. I only got to glance at what someone else bought, though, so I couldn't quote any text two days and a road trip later. Fanboy

> How was there BH for sale? I thought it wasn't released for 2 more weeks? > > What the Hell is a pre release about? > > When Camarilla came out, WW sold it at Gen Con almost 3 weeks earlier than > the actual release date. > > Was this WW? More information: The Camarilla fan club is owned by White Wolf. Half of it's governing board are appointed by White Wolf. The convention is paid for mostly by White Wolf and membership dues (which are sent directly to White Wolf). It is a LARP club, though from time to time, they also have a VTES event (this has become more common as the years pass). In the dealer room, the WW booth had what appeared to be three boxes of Black Hand available for sale. So no, this wasn't an independent vendor breaking a street date. This is WW offering a product in advance to people who come to their convention. They also had what appeared to be a playable demo of the Bloodlines computer game, which looks snazzy and far more advanced than my junk PC can handle. Fanboy

ICC is a LARP event run by the Camarilla, WW's official fan club. So yes, I would say this was WW at work. [shrug] noodleboy "Metropolis" <do...@umich.edu> wrote in message news:<kahnb.4199$H91....@news.itd.umich.edu>... [ quoted text not captured ]

thisi_s...@yahoo.com (kushiel) wrote: > > "I can confirm with 100% accuracy that Ian Forrestal is reprinted, > and in fact he comes in the !Tremere starter deck, along with Rev > Blackwood, and Infernal Familiar. If that is true, I wonder what the other strarters contain. Because I know that people will drool after Ian...remember the Ventrue starter :( Scenario: 3 or so starter displays arrive. The first buyer takes 3 !Tremere starters. The second: oh, is there any !Tremere statrers left? 3? I'l take'em! -Antero

"noodleboy" <nood...@iprimus.net.au> wrote in message news:e72ec49.03102...@posting.google.com... > ICC is a LARP event run by the Camarilla, WW's official fan club. > > So yes, I would say this was WW at work. > > [shrug] > > noodleboy Kinda ironic though isn't it that the LRP players get a glimpse of the new set before the CCG players? :/ Regards, Mike

AL <nom...@jippii.fi> wrote: : thisi_s...@yahoo.com (kushiel) wrote: :> "I can confirm with 100% accuracy that Ian Forrestal is reprinted, :> and in fact he comes in the !Tremere starter deck, along with Rev :> Blackwood, and Infernal Familiar. : If that is true, I wonder what the other strarters contain. Because I : know that people will drool after Ian...remember the Ventrue starter : :( Hope you can go around that by ordering starters, instead of starter packs. Othervise, it'd be absolutely worderful to have Ian reprinted. Especially with Bloodlines exotica Ian is a nice vamp to have around for fun decks and even having a few copies myself I dislike the idea of costly, rare OOP cards. Just having Freak Drives in those "oh, we've sold out all of them" Ventrue starters makes things so much easier for moderately new players and players that have no interest of wasting piles of cash to buy some rare cards you tend to use a lot. //T

Mike Nudd expounded: [ quoted text not captured ] WW don't need to sell it to us... Reckon we should get first peak of the new RPG stuff? ;D

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20031027234918...@mb-m13.aol.com>... > >I'm about peeing myself here. > >And I guess we know now why the folks at White Wolf decided to bring > >back !Tremere to V:TES. > > > Did I miss something? Why? So they could get toasted by the new Goratrix? ='( Sorry. What I was referring to was the increasing tendency on the part of White Wolf to give players the chance to actually act out things that have happened in the V:TM metaplot, through cards like Balitmore Purge, Legion, et al. (I'm aware of the irony inherent in having that same metaplot shaped, to some extent, by the cardgame's storyline tournaments, yes.) So now you too can reveal to the world that Goratrix really *is* Saulot, AKA "Did you *really* think I let myself be diablerized without a good reason?", and then run around blowing up every Sabbat Tremere you can get your mitts on. Next stop, Vienna... Stupid Salubri. Oh, and by the by, I asked my prince if he'd seen the rulebook that came with Black Hand, but he said he hadn't (I don't believe he actually bought any, just looked at what some other people had picked up). So we still don't know if being a Black Hand member has any inherent drawbacks. He did also mention that there's a non-Baali infernal vampire named Midget, though. Path of Evil Revelations, anyone? Kushiel

kushiel wrote: [...] > So now you > too can reveal to the world that Goratrix really *is* Saulot, AKA "Did you > *really* think I let myself be diablerized without a good reason?", and then > run around blowing up every Sabbat Tremere you can get your mitts on. Next > stop, Vienna... Well, Goratrix is not Saulot. Saulot is in Tremere's body. And Tremere is in Goratrix's body. Greetings, Damnans

"Damnans" <damna...@ono.com> wrote in message news:3F9E86BD...@ono.com... > Saulot is in Tremere's body. And Tremere is in Goratrix's body. And Goratrix is trapped in a magic mirror in Mexico... :) Regards, Mike

"kushiel" <thisi_s...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:6f98ce2a.03102...@posting.google.com... >He did also mention > that there's a non-Baali infernal vampire named Midget, though. Path of Evil > Revelations, anyone? > > Kushiel Midget! More Montreal by night. Yay. -JTP

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20031027234918...@mb-m13.aol.com... [Ira Fay reported] > >"I can confirm with 100% accuracy that Ian Forrestal is reprinted, > >and in fact he comes in the !Tremere starter deck, along with Rev > >Blackwood, and Infernal Familiar. > > > Infernal Familiar (as in the retainer)? Not Infernal Pact? Also, are the other > Group 2 !Tremere reprinted as well? No Nephandi? No Succubi? No Gargoyle Slave? > =P Man, I've been totally counting on Infernal Pact to be reprinted in Black Hand. I hope they don't let me down. :-) > >The vampires feel slightly more > >powerful to me, but I don't mind that too much because they're group > >3, and thus you have to sacrifice group 1 vamps to use them. > > Well, in my personal opinion, some of the recent vampires have really been > pushing the envelope in regards to the power curve. But that could just be me. > Nothing as bad as the original Sabbat but I really think vamps have been > getting better and better point-wise. (Especially from CE onwards). While I think you're right in some cases, I think the large vamps really *needed* to get better point-wise. Ever since the early days of Jyhad, big vamps have mostly been poor investments unless they were Princes or Justicars. Unless they have really great special abilities (on the level of Nu the Pillar, Goratrix, Thetmes, etc - and not always even then) they are just not strong enough to justify spending so much more pool on them than on a greater number of smaller vampires. I don't think that small vamps have really gotten better. Mid-size (5-7? 5-8?) have probably gotten significantly better on the high end (since 7-8 caps now typically get more points than they used to) but not so much on the 5-6 end I think. And I do also think that in many cases the 7-8 caps needed the help too (again in the "non-Prince/Justicar" category). Which specific vampires would you point to as pushing the power envelope recently? I can't think of any from Anarchs, offhand, that seem especially (unusually) powerful to me. The big Gangrel, while cool, are pretty handicapped by their discipline selection (in that none of them have Dom or even Pre). Tegyrius Vizier maybe, but he doesn't become especially cool until you merge him... > >"Advance Goratrix, Camarilla, burns a !Tremere as an action. > > Ugh. As I mentioned in a previous post, the !Tremere really don't need yet > *another* very powerful clan-hoser (that burns them outright). Grrrr... While it is an annoyingly strong effect, I don't think this will have much impact as a clan hoser. For one, it's only pretty rarely even going to have a chance to come up (someone has to bring out Goratrix (adv) in a game where someone else is also playing !Tremere). For two, it requires playing a 10-cap vampire. For three, it requires using your 10-cap's action to try this instead of doing something your deck is actually designed to do. I would definitely agree that the "flavor" this ability might contribute to the game is outweighed by its (a) being useless most of the time and (b) being not especially "fair" when it *is* usable. But I don't think it's really going to give the !Tremere anything special to worry about. Josh worry *for* the tremere antis? probably more prudent to worry *about* the tremere antis...

[ quoted text not captured ] at last a little bit of reason. I agree completely. I hope some of the OOP key cards (I won't even say they're merely valuable or even loved; they're key to certain strategies) will show up again on Black Hand and Gehenna. Or at least we'll have new cards with similar effects. I can't find any Ventrue starter right here by now, but i can always manage to order it somehow, even without a credit card. It's no reason for WW to underpower any starter, or quit reprinting cards that would become too much valuable in second market. We don't want VTES to become that other popular and boring cardgame. There's still some cards (like the Rare Vampires from Final Nights) being sold by more than 10 dollars. If a card reaches a "black market value" of half a RPG sourcebook, something's wrong; it's about time to reprint it.

>If that is true, I wonder what the other strarters contain. Because I >know that people will drool after Ian...remember the Ventrue starter >:( > >Scenario: 3 or so starter displays arrive. The first buyer takes 3 >!Tremere starters. The second: oh, is there any !Tremere statrers >left? 3? I'l take'em! A difficult problem to overcome. Best solution of unequal precons I've seen is for stores to charge different amounts for them, that's hardly ideal. The problem wouldn't be so bad, of course, if the precons had more similar value. Ventrue precon "benefitted" from the other CE precons being weak in value. Do we know if the BH boosters only include new cards? If only new cards, it would be a great disappointment if the !Trem precon lacked Infernal Pact and Nephandus (minimum) even if it would make it valued ridiculously more than the others.

"Mike Nudd" <mi...@vekn.org.uk> wrote in message news:<HJvnb.1742$lm1....@wards.force9.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Eh. Sorry, I must've missed something when my friend was explaining that particular crinkle in the plot to me. I was pretty out of it at the time. So was it Goratrix who destroyed all the !Tremere at their convocation? Kushiel

Am I the only person that is upset that BH was released early? David Oros The Masked Profanitor

>Am I the only person that is upset that BH was released early? I'm annoyed. And I think White Wolf would have been much better off waiting, but hey, that's the way it is. And as others have noted before, White Wolf released CE early so there is a precedent. (Though BH wasn't at a major event IMO). Halcyan 2

Metropolis wrote: > Am I the only person that is upset that BH was released early? No. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3F9ED981...@white-wolf.com... > Metropolis wrote: > > Am I the only person that is upset that BH was released early? > > No. Thanks! PS. I kept it clean this time : )

"kushiel" <thisi_s...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:6f98ce2a.0310...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Nope, Tremere himself, who already had taken over Goratrix at this point,did the !Tremere in with some funky rank 10 thaumaturgy ritual. Magnus

> "aus cel combo card: +1 intercept and a manuever if combat occurs; > AUS CEL: +2 intercept and a manuever if combat occurs. Woo Toreador gun decks! Especially say with Mark Vs. > "obf ani combo action mod card: gain 1 vote; OBF ANI combo action > mod card: gain 3 votes. Very useful to a Nos or Nos Anti vote deck. This could push Nos Prince decks towards being very effective vote decks. Also very useful to a Feline Saboteur deck for passing those Brinksmanships. Heh heh. -John Flournoy

> Kinda ironic though isn't it that the LRP players get a glimpse of the new > set before the CCG players? :/ The Camarilla is WW's official fanclub. They apply that to all products, not just LARP. New TT books, CCG expansions, computer games, etc are sold or demoed at their booth every year. I know I'm not the only Cam member that's also an active VTES tournament player. Given that there were 950-someodd members there, I'd say a large number of the them at least collect the cards. There was also a tournament. Only 10 people showed up, but it was scheduled opposite a game (inevitable given the focus of the event), so I was actually a bit surprised by the turnout. Fanboy

> Do we know if the BH boosters only include new cards? If only new cards, it > would be a great disappointment if the !Trem precon lacked Infernal Pact and > Nephandus (minimum) even if it would make it valued ridiculously more than the > others. There were no reprints in the four boosters I looked at. Fanboy

> Kinda ironic though isn't it that the LRP players get a glimpse of the new > set before the CCG players? :/ Tyring to expand the player base, I guess. In the Cam, you've got a whole bunch of folks already familiar with the source material, and [probably] the characters on the new cards. i find the hardest thing about explaining the game to new players is not the actual rules, but getting their head around the paradigm. noodleboy

>Very useful to a Nos or Nos Anti vote deck. This could push Nos Prince >decks towards being very effective vote decks. Also very useful to a >Feline Saboteur deck for passing those Brinksmanships. Heh heh. As I mentioned earlier, it helps the !Nos out a lot. And actually, it doesn't really help Nos Princes out *that* much since Casino Reeds is the only Prince with ANI OBF. (The two justicars, IC member, and several Primogen can use it also, but that's not as great). At inferior, a single vote isn't gonna help that much (might as well play Bribes or something). Halcyan 2

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F9ED981...@white-wolf.com>... > Metropolis wrote: > > Am I the only person that is upset that BH was released early? > > No. I actually think it's great that they did pre-release the cards at a WW convention and not just any convention. I know that if there hadn't been a LARP going on at the time of the tourney, more would have gone for it. Back at ICC-96, they had a Sabbat party (but I had gotten out of VTES at that time, due to 3/4's of my collection being stolen) and it was pretty huge. What I am a little miffed about is the fact that Australia also recently had their ICC just a week before the American ICC, and White Wolf wasn't there, and that us Aussies were dissed on getting cards. And I bet there would have been at least 10 players to that game as well, which is better as the Aus-ICC was smaller. One other thing: Another reason why WW loves to do stuff at ICC's with the card game, is because quite a few of the LARPers are the models for the vampires. Especially Ayalea, Enzo Giovanni, and Javiar Montoya just as a few examples. Gotta love the Dark and Sticky! Jamie The Seppo

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:42:20 +0100, "Magnus Knoblauch" <magn...@gmx.de> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] Yes. Tremere in Goratirx's body (ie: Goratrix^), toasted the Tremere Anti (ie: Goratrix^'s special ability..or was that Goratrix[[]? i forget). Tremere is in Goratrix's body because Saulot forced Tremere out of his own body when he took it over. and as for that Magic Mirror thing, i never knew that. :) salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:35:42 -0500, "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> scrawled: > >"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message >news:20031027234918...@mb-m13.aol.com... > >[Ira Fay reported] > >> >"I can confirm with 100% accuracy that Ian Forrestal is reprinted, >> >and in fact he comes in the !Tremere starter deck, along with Rev >> >Blackwood, and Infernal Familiar. >> >> >> Infernal Familiar (as in the retainer)? Not Infernal Pact? Also, are the >other >> Group 2 !Tremere reprinted as well? No Nephandi? No Succubi? No Gargoyle >Slave? >> =P > >Man, I've been totally counting on Infernal Pact to be reprinted >in Black Hand. I hope they don't let me down. :-) trade a few away recently, did you? ;) >> >"Advance Goratrix, Camarilla, burns a !Tremere as an action. >> >> Ugh. As I mentioned in a previous post, the !Tremere really don't need yet >> *another* very powerful clan-hoser (that burns them outright). Grrrr... > >While it is an annoyingly strong effect, I don't think this >will have much impact as a clan hoser. For one, it's only >pretty rarely even going to have a chance to come up (someone >has to bring out Goratrix (adv) in a game where someone else >is also playing !Tremere). For two, it requires playing a >10-cap vampire. For three, it requires using your 10-cap's >action to try this instead of doing something your deck is >actually designed to do. > >I would definitely agree that the "flavor" this ability >might contribute to the game is outweighed by its (a) being >useless most of the time and (b) being not especially "fair" >when it *is* usable. But I don't think it's really going to >give the !Tremere anything special to worry about. we don't even know the exact text. it might only be a ready once controlled by your prey, or a tapped one controlled by your preadtor, or anything. might even be only one you control. :P [ quoted text not captured ]

Hey All, The tremere precon has infernal pact, the one that gives a !Tremere a superior discipline. Sorry about getting the names mixed up. Ira

> I'm annoyed. And I think White Wolf would have been much better off waiting, > but hey, that's the way it is. > > And as others have noted before, White Wolf released CE early so there is a > precedent. (Though BH wasn't at a major event IMO). ICC is a huge event for LARPers and WW. There were 920 people (some as far away as Korea and Australia.) Granted, it's not focused on the CCG. Also, I debated about letting the information be posted here, or spreading the information at all. I hope it's done more good than harm - I tried to be thoughtful of everyone, which is hard! Ira

"Jamie The Seppo" <moon...@useoz.com> wrote > > One other thing: Another reason why WW loves to do stuff at ICC's > with the card game, is because quite a few of the LARPers are the > models for the vampires. Especially Ayalea, Enzo Giovanni, and Javiar > Montoya just as a few examples. Gotta love the Dark and Sticky! I know about Enzo... but who were Ayleah and Javiar modeled after? Cheers, WES

"John P" <verg...@hotmail.com> wrote > > Midget! More Montreal by night. Yay. FYI... Midget is a Malkavian. Cheers, WES

Ira expounded: [ quoted text not captured ] It's not the information that's annoying. It's the fact that it was released to other people in advance without so much as telling VTES players it would be there. Besides that it seems totally pointless as only VTES players are likely to care that it's a new set.

"The Fanboy" <texas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f99d61c5.03102...@posting.google.com... > > Kinda ironic though isn't it that the LRP players get a glimpse of the new > > set before the CCG players? :/ > > The Camarilla is WW's official fanclub. They apply that to all > products, not just LARP. But following that reasoning, surely having two seperate organisations advocating the same product is somewhat counter-productive? In any case it certainly implies that the VEKN is the poor cousin of the Camarilla. I am an active member of the VEKN, but know next to nothing about the Camarilla in my area, and I don't really know how I'd find out. TBH if they're also supposed to be pro-active as well then shouldn't they have got in touch with me at some point? Surely it would make more sense to merge the two organisations, or at least have them complement/inform each other better? Regards, Mike

> >> > > Saulot is in Tremere's body. And Tremere is in Goratrix's body. > >> > > >> > And Goratrix is trapped in a magic mirror in Mexico... :) > >> > >> Eh. Sorry, I must've missed something when my friend was explaining that > >> particular crinkle in the plot to me. I was pretty out of it at the time. > >> So was it Goratrix who destroyed all the !Tremere at their convocation? > > > >Nope, Tremere himself, who already had taken over Goratrix at this point,did the !Tremere in with some funky rank 10 thaumaturgy > >ritual. > > Yes. Tremere in Goratirx's body (ie: Goratrix^), toasted the Tremere > Anti (ie: Goratrix^'s special ability..or was that Goratrix[[]? i > forget). > Tremere is in Goratrix's body because Saulot forced Tremere out of his > own body when he took it over. > and as for that Magic Mirror thing, i never knew that. :) The whole Tremere/Saulot thing is explained on the Transylvania Chronicles, but the mirror part, as well as some considerations about why Tremere would destroy the Antitribu instead of using them (since he's in Goratrix's body), shows up on Nights of Prophecy. But a friend of mine told me that Lair of the Hidden further explained again the whole situation, and Salubris that were diablerized by Tremere vampires are rising/awakening and taking up their hosts. kinda nasty.

On 29 Oct 2003, Halcyan 2 wrote: > As I mentioned earlier, it helps the !Nos out a lot. And actually, it doesn't > really help Nos Princes out *that* much since Casino Reeds is the only Prince > with ANI OBF. (The two justicars, IC member, and several Primogen can use it > also, but that's not as great). At inferior, a single vote isn't gonna help > that much (might as well play Bribes or something). Spider Killer bleeds, freaks, calls FSR, freaks, Nightmare Curse's, freaks, SenseDep's, freaks, and stays up to defend Jack. David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 david.che...@duke.edu

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20031028194344...@mb-m10.aol.com>... > >Very useful to a Nos or Nos Anti vote deck. This could push Nos Prince > >decks towards being very effective vote decks. Also very useful to a > >Feline Saboteur deck for passing those Brinksmanships. Heh heh. when i saw that card, i clutched my heart so you mean that you have never seen an effective nos vote deck? up here in harrisburg, nosferatu rule, and someone is always playing at least 1 nos deck > As I mentioned earlier, it helps the !Nos out a lot. And actually, it doesn't > really help Nos Princes out *that* much since Casino Reeds is the only Prince > with ANI OBF. (The two justicars, IC member, and several Primogen can use it > also, but that's not as great). At inferior, a single vote isn't gonna help > that much (might as well play Bribes or something). > > Halcyan 2 feh, 1 more vote to help you pass the praxis -Prince of Harrisburg

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news: >>Very useful to a Nos or Nos Anti vote deck. This could push Nos Prince >>decks towards being very effective vote decks. (...) > > As I mentioned earlier, it helps the !Nos out a lot. And actually, it doesn't > really help Nos Princes out *that* much since Casino Reeds is the only Prince > with ANI OBF. I think i'm missing something here, Halcyan. What about the G1+G2 Nosferatu Prince vote decks using Sheldon, Selma, Nicolaus, Murat and Calebros? These were already effective (you have Justicars, Princes and the wonderful Elysium:Palace of Versailles). With a couple of Master:Discipline Animalism and a couple of Sanguine Instruction, you can have them using more effectively the new card. Basically you won't build the vote deck around this card, just like you do with Awe in Presence deck. These are supporting cards just in case... What do you think? .- Luis Duarte (Portugal)

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20031028194344...@mb-m10.aol.com>... > >Very useful to a Nos or Nos Anti vote deck. This could push Nos Prince > >decks towards being very effective vote decks. Also very useful to a > >Feline Saboteur deck for passing those Brinksmanships. Heh heh. > > > As I mentioned earlier, it helps the !Nos out a lot. Oh my, yes. Hugely so. *wipes up drool* > And actually, it doesn't > really help Nos Princes out *that* much since Casino Reeds is the only Prince > with ANI OBF. (The two justicars, IC member, and several Primogen can use it > also, but that's not as great). True - there's no substantial difference between a Prince and Justicar in most decks (aside from 1 vote); when I said 'Nos Prince decks' most of those I've seen also use one of the Justicars. > At inferior, a single vote isn't gonna help > that much (might as well play Bribes or something). While it might not help much, it's better than nothing - Bribes has the annoying tendency to give other people pool, something I've been trying to avoid in my vote decks recently (had a lot of fun with my 'No Carrot, Just the Stick' Scorn of Adonis-based vote deck recently.) > Halcyan 2 -John Flournoy

moon...@useoz.com (Jamie The Seppo) wrote in message news:<1fb48054.03102...@posting.google.com>... > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F9ED981...@white-wolf.com>... > > Metropolis wrote: > > > Am I the only person that is upset that BH was released early? > > > > No. > > I actually think it's great that they did pre-release the cards at a > WW convention and not just any convention. I don't have a problem with WW choosing an event focusing on their fan club as a place to debut the set. I'm not entirely happy that they made the decision to release early at all, though. I flip-flopped on this, really. On the one hand, the vast majority of V:tes players don't participate in the Camarilla, or LARP at all, thus making it HIGHLY unlikely that they'd turn up at an ICC event even with an attached tourney with a reduced price. Similarly, most Camarilla players don't play V:tes. On the other hand, it's not like there's an official White Wolf V:tes Convention they could debut stuff at. (Although an argument can be made that the North American Championships are at a con where WW attends, the timing wasn't right, and the Euro championship wasn't really a convention with White Wolf selling product there.) If WW is going to pre-release product, a convention they're supporting and attending that focuses on their 'fan club' would probably be the best choice for it, even if most of the probable attendees could care less about the game. (As a total aside, it's sort of unfortunate on a local level, because while this part of the country has a long-standing and enormous LARP community that includes a lot of serious and casual V:tes players, the LARP community here generally loathes the Camarilla, so despite the relatively short distance to the ICC, almost nobody from here would attend. But that's pretty much totally unrelated to this discussion and has to do more with local LARP politics *rushes off to wash his mouth out with soap*) > What I am a little miffed about is the fact that Australia also > recently had their ICC just a week before the American ICC, and White > Wolf wasn't there, and that us Aussies were dissed on getting cards. > And I bet there would have been at least 10 players to that game as > well, which is better as the Aus-ICC was smaller. Should other people be miffed that they attended a non-V:tes White-Wolf-related event where WW wasn't officially present and thus didn't get new cards? Like, say, any LARP event in the world in the last two weeks? What about Bob's tabletop game in Podunk? I will gladly retract all the sarcasm here if WW had announced that they'd be at the Australian ICC in advance and failed to show. Otherwise, it's a silly expectation to think that you might have gotten anything both special and not-at-all-related to LARP from WW at it, so being miffed about it seems extraordinarily pointless. > One other thing: Another reason why WW loves to do stuff at ICC's > with the card game, is because quite a few of the LARPers are the > models for the vampires. Especially Ayalea, Enzo Giovanni, and Javiar > Montoya just as a few examples. Gotta love the Dark and Sticky! Although the decisions to have Enzo the card with the portrait of a LARP player was largely coincidental and totally unrelated to the Camarilla at the time, it's still pretty nifty when it happens. (Heck, I still have my Enzo signed by the player!) The Lord Ashton portrait story is much more admirable, in any case. > Jamie > The Seppo -John Flournoy

id77...@yahoo.com (isaphrael) wrote in message news:<5494c8c1.03102...@posting.google.com>... > halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20031028194344...@mb-m10.aol.com>... > > >Very useful to a Nos or Nos Anti vote deck. This could push Nos Prince > > >decks towards being very effective vote decks. Also very useful to a > > >Feline Saboteur deck for passing those Brinksmanships. Heh heh. > > when i saw that card, i clutched my heart > so you mean that you have never seen an effective nos vote deck? > up here in harrisburg, nosferatu rule, and someone is always playing > at least 1 nos deck I occasionally *play* effective Nos Vote decks. My point was that this will make them MORE effective, potentially getting up into the rarified air that Ventrue vote decks currently occupy (and if you think Nos Vote decks are better than Ventrue ones, well, the Legion Storyline results show that many, many more Ventrue vote decks won tourneys than Nos ones.) And it'll certainly make Nos vote decks more viable without resorting to Presence. Nos vote decks can be quite good. This card would make them better. And as Halcyan notes, it'll make !Nos vote decks much more viable as well. > feh, 1 more vote to help you pass the praxis Very few Nos praxis-seizure decks that I've seen need it; usually if they need the vote they're acting on turn 2 with a vamp that only has one discipline (almost never with ani/obf), and if they've already got a few voters out, they don't need the vote. But you're right, it certainly won't hurt (and can eliminate the whole 'I call a turn two praxis with Clarissa Steinburgen - okay, I pitch a vote card and you fail!' problem that happens so often.. :P ) > -Prince of Harrisburg -John Flournoy

>when i saw that card, i clutched my heart >so you mean that you have never seen an effective nos vote deck? >up here in harrisburg, nosferatu rule, and someone is always playing >at least 1 nos deck That's the thing. I have already seen plenty of effective Nosferatu vote decks. And they already work extremely well. Most of the vote decks I've seen rely on the Princes and Justicar and, as I've mentioned before, since most of the Princes lack ANI OBF, I think the card will only marginally help those decks. Which is exactly what I've been saying... >feh, 1 more vote to help you pass the praxis If you need just one more vote, you can already be using Bastille Opera House. Or Elysium Versailles. Or Lyndhurst Estate. Speaking of that last card, anyone know if Lyndhurst Estate got reprinted? Halcyan 2

>> And actually, it doesn't >> really help Nos Princes out *that* much since Casino Reeds is the only >Prince >> with ANI OBF. (The two justicars, IC member, and several Primogen can use >it >> also, but that's not as great). > >True - there's no substantial difference between a Prince and Justicar >in most decks (aside from 1 vote); when I said 'Nos Prince decks' most >of those I've seen also use one of the Justicars. I know. But my point is, only Casino and Sheldon or Casino and Cock Robin can play it at superior. Nikolaus, Selma, Murat, and Calebros can't and I see them far more often than Casino. >While it might not help much, it's better than nothing - Bribes has >the annoying tendency to give other people pool, something I've been >trying to avoid in my vote decks recently (had a lot of fun with my >'No Carrot, Just the Stick' Scorn of Adonis-based vote deck recently.) I really am surprised more non-Presence vote decks don't take advantage of Lyndhurst Estate... Halcyan 2

"Orpheus" wrote: > > "A !tremere action card, usable by a tapped vampire. Leave torpor at > > 0 blood cost. > > Good, not incredible. Actually, it is. Imagine a !Tremere w/ DOM FOR. Hunt (w/ Hungry Coyote for 2)/Force of will/Daring the Dawn/Conditioning and then this card to come back out. Toss in some Revelations to get rid of Deflections and you're off to the races with a rather nasty deck. > > "aus cel combo card: +1 intercept and a manuever if combat occurs; > > AUS CEL: +2 intercept and a manuever if combat occurs. > > Very good. I've seen some Assamites w/Auspex decks. I can see that this will be common in them. > > "obf ani combo action mod card: gain 1 vote; OBF ANI combo action > > mod card: gain 3 votes. > > Who said the Nosfies couldn't vote ?? Now they really will be very good at > that... Should make Anathema decks popular. Regards, Noal

> I really am surprised more non-Presence vote decks don't take advantage of > Lyndhurst Estate... As a Sabbat edition-only card (and an Uncommon at that), most people don't have access to Lyndhurst Estate - and those few people that do have it generally don't want to trade it away (even if they never use it much), because it's not readily replacable. I can't recall the last time I've even seen a copy of the card - it's easily been years and years. > Halcyan 2 -John Flournoy

John Flournoy) wrote: > > At inferior, a single vote isn't gonna help > > that much (might as well play Bribes or something). > > While it might not help much, it's better than nothing - Bribes has > the annoying tendency to give other people pool, something I've been > trying to avoid in my vote decks recently Bribes is for gaining pool, not votes. As for the problem with giving other people pool, use Telepathic Vote Counting. Great card that is waaaaaaaaay under-used. Regards, Noal

"Noal McDonald" <dhar...@my-deja.com> skrev i meddelandet news:bb705c59.03102...@posting.google.com... > "Orpheus" wrote: > > > "A !tremere action card, usable by a tapped vampire. Leave torpor at > > > 0 blood cost. > > > > Good, not incredible. > > Actually, it is. Imagine a !Tremere w/ DOM FOR. Hunt (w/ Hungry > Coyote for 2)/Force of will/Daring the Dawn/Conditioning and then this > card to come back out. Toss in some Revelations to get rid of > Deflections and you're off to the races with a rather nasty deck. > This is super-good until someone blocks the zero (?) stealth action and diablerizes the vampire... =) Of course you could darign that action as well I guess... /henrik isaksson

in article X5Anb.4263$H91....@news.itd.umich.edu, Metropolis at do...@umich.edu wrote on 10/28/03 12:14 PM: > Am I the only person that is upset that BH was released early? > > David Oros > The Masked Profanitor > > Yes. As usual you are of your own mind. While there may be others who have opinions that seem similar you seem to be alone in your rancor. Frankly I could care less as long as we receive our prerelease cards in time for the event. Scott

>Surely it would make more sense to merge the two >organisations, or at least have them complement/inform each other better? That's something that I would advocate, as an active member of both organizations, and had thought would happen when WW took over ownership of the Camarilla last year. It looks like their focus at this time is on merging a number of independnent LARP groups under their fold, first, but statements made by the club last year indicate that they look to eventually expand into other WW-based gaming. So it may happen, eventually. Before foul is cried by anyone, however, we should consider the matter of timing. The cards are only three weeks from release. When was the last major event? The cards likely weren't ready yet. And ICC is an event that WW knows will be populated only by fans of WW products, as membership in the club was $20, and the event wasn't exactly cheap for such a focused event ($50 registration). VEKN doesn't have cons, they have presence at other, larger, cons whre WW isn't the center of attention. I know in the past, WW has not allowed WoTC, AEG, and other publishers to purchase space in the dealer's room. That monopoly on space and attention likely had a large part in the process. Fanboy

Ayalea is after Heidi Preuss(sp?) former President of the Cam, of her Great Mother Tremere character. Javair is from Tampa Bay, former Prince, and just plain Dark and Sticky. I'm pretty sure he's dead now, and last I heard there were plans of Infernalism for him. Ugh! I can't remember the guy's name!!! And he was a very good friend of mine before I moved to Oz. Very good with Tequila, able to drink it at the bottom of swimming pools and used it to commence The Bear Dances at goth clubs. Wah! One of my characters was his grand-childe before I got hit for doing some REAL stupid and getting suspended for a year and lost 10 1/2 MC levels. Now, I'm just an example to new Cammies. Never insult the NC, anywhere. Jamie The Seppo [ quoted text not captured ]

The Fanboy expounded: > It looks like their focus at this time is on merging a number of > independnent LARP groups under their fold, first, but statements made > by the club last year indicate that they look to eventually expand > into other WW-based gaming. So it may happen, eventually. Interesting. I imagine that the vast majority of independent LARPS are independent for a reason: they don't want interference. Just as most people have a pretty low opinion of WW fiction there are aspects of the RPG that can be considerably improved and 'canon' is very often positively unhelpful. > The cards are only three weeks from release. When was the last major > event? The cards likely weren't ready yet. I seem to recall someone saying there was one one week earlier in Australia (American companies do tend to think of the rest of the world as second-rate consumers). > And ICC is an event that WW knows will be populated only by fans of WW > products, as membership in the club was $20, and the event wasn't > exactly cheap for such a focused event ($50 registration). VEKN > doesn't have cons, they have presence at other, larger, cons whre WW > isn't the center of attention. There is no good reason why BH should be any more interesting to non- VTES players than any other set of VtES. There is a good reason why they shouldn't be released before the pre-release tournaments. > I know in the past, WW has not allowed WoTC, AEG, and other publishers > to purchase space in the dealer's room. That monopoly on space and > attention likely had a large part in the process. So show some already published VtES and advertise BH as well. Even preview it with some cards on display/demoed: actually selling the product is way over the line imo.

>> event? The cards likely weren't ready yet. > >I seem to recall someone saying there was one one week earlier in >Australia (American companies do tend to think of the rest of the world >as second-rate consumers). Well, believe it or not, but travel costs can be prohibitive at time. I'm sorry but I'm guessing that it's sometimes not feasible for an American company to attend every freakin' convention that is being held within the U.S., let alone outside the U.S. Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 expounded: [ quoted text not captured ] My point being that you consider every tournament niside the US to be a higher priority than any outside it.

Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> writes: > My point being that you consider every tournament niside the US to be a > higher priority than any outside it. Travel costs. What trip would you rather pay for: a trip to the state next to yours, or a trip across an ocean? Hint: you can use your own car for the first one. Which trip would give you more bang for your buck, game design and promotion-wise? Travel. Costs. -- hg@ It's better to open your mouth and appear stupid, iki.fi than to hold it shut and keep thinking you know it all.

> Interesting. I imagine that the vast majority of independent LARPS are > independent for a reason: they don't want interference. Just as most > people have a pretty low opinion of WW fiction there are aspects of the > RPG that can be considerably improved and 'canon' is very often > positively unhelpful. Since The Camarilla became a WW-run organization, the membership has grown by leaps and bounds. Many independent LARPS all over the world have joined. Last I heard, overtures have been made to the larger LARP games, and are actaully being considered, though this could well be rumor. > I seem to recall someone saying there was one one week earlier in > Australia (American companies do tend to think of the rest of the world > as second-rate consumers). The Camarilla began as a non-profit organization that worked closely with WW. The ICC, and the Australian ICC, were created as institutions at that time, as were regional events throughout the country. WW assumed ownership of the club last year -- after these events were in place. They've been doing what they can for them, however WW isn't Microsoft. Providing the level of support overseas that they can provide domestically costs, and it probably costs more than they're willing to spend -- especially right now, since WW is footing the bill for the majority of the club's membership for a couple more months. Once the free memberships that were offered to members of the NPO last year expire in January, WW will have a larger source of revenue and might be better able to attend international events. Until then, they're bound by budget. > There is no good reason why BH should be any more interesting to non- > VTES players than any other set of VtES. There is a good reason why they > shouldn't be released before the pre-release tournaments. The ability to purchase WW material in advance at Camarilla events is one of the benefits of membership in the club. It has been since the first ICC in Houston in 1997 (where Sabbat premiered). > So show some already published VtES and advertise BH as well. Even > preview it with some cards on display/demoed: actually selling the > product is way over the line imo. See above -- the product is slated for release within a month of the event. Thus, it is made available to Camarilla members for purchase. I was lucky enough to cash in on that perk with Sabbat and Sabbat War, as well, though in both cases the street date was only a day or two after the event concluded. Fanboy

fa...@cohesp.com.br (the_capuchin) wrote: > > at last a little bit of reason. > I agree completely. I hope some of the OOP key cards (I won't even say > they're merely valuable or even loved; they're key to certain > strategies) will show up again on Black Hand and Gehenna. Or at least > we'll have new cards with similar effects. > I can't find any Ventrue starter right here by now, but i can always > manage to order it somehow, even without a credit card. It's no reason > for WW to underpower any starter, or quit reprinting cards that would > become too much valuable in second market. We don't want VTES to > become that other popular and boring cardgame. There's still some > cards (like the Rare Vampires from Final Nights) being sold by more > than 10 dollars. If a card reaches a "black market value" of half a > RPG sourcebook, something's wrong; it's about time to reprint it. It is true, that Ian Forrestal, for example, is ridiculously prized in second market. And on the other hand it is nice that newer players get some copies of him, too (because any time I play with Ian, I see some players drooling after him). But, as he is available starter-only, it will be hard to get more than 1 copy of him. Here in Turku (Finland) the local gaming store got about 5 boxes of Camarilla. I got one Ventrue Starter with luck. No more arrived, because they all were sold in Helsinki (I suppose, somebody may correct me if I'm grossly wrong). Meaning that starter displays arrive here if the main store in Helsinki has any leftovers. I think that Ian, Infernal Pact + othe oter non-reprinted !Tremere are more valuable than 2 lousy Freak Drives/ 2nd:s and a PTO. As for ordering !Tremere starters from, say, UK, a cheque via bank will cost extra, even that much that I'd better start looking Ians and Infernal Pacts from the second market (but I suppose I have to pay dearly from them even then). -Antero

flou...@rcn.com (John Flournoy) wrote in message news:<57327a82.03102...@posting.google.com>... > (As a total aside, it's sort of unfortunate on a local level, because > while this part of the country has a long-standing and enormous LARP > community that includes a lot of serious and casual V:tes players, the > LARP community here generally loathes the Camarilla, so despite the > relatively short distance to the ICC, almost nobody from here would > attend. But that's pretty much totally unrelated to this discussion > and has to do more with local LARP politics *rushes off to wash his > mouth out with soap*) Here in St. Louis, it's pretty split. Quite a few people are involved in the Cam, and really enjoy it. Everyone else seems to universally hate it. While no one said it out loud, I did get the impression that the tournament being held at a Cam convention was a significant deterant to my players being interested in it. Similar to any other situation with large rpg groups and independants, such as NERO and Amtgard vs. independant boffer LARPs. Back on subject, it didn't really bother me. The only real effect it has on my VTES experience is that now I get to read up on what's in the set a little earlier, and have a bit more time to decide what to buy. J. Jeffryes Prince, blah blah blah, St. Louis

"Janne Hägglund" <h...@iki.fi.remove.these.to.reply.invalid> wrote in message news:m2smlay...@etemenanki.homelinux.net... > Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> writes: > > > My point being that you consider every tournament niside the US to be a > > higher priority than any outside it. > > Travel costs. > > What trip would you rather pay for: a trip to the state next to yours, or a > trip across an ocean? > > Hint: you can use your own car for the first one. > > Which trip would give you more bang for your buck, game design and > promotion-wise? > > Travel. Costs. Ah but it depends on how you go about it though doesn't it? :) Isn't that what the Camarilla and the VEKN are for? We can represent White Wolf world-wide without the need for heavy expenditure - the only overhead would be the shipping of the promotional material and the cost of the entry/space for the show presence. From this perspective an international event wouldn't cost that much more than a US event, so this only leaves question marks over planning capability and motivation... :) Regards, Mike

> Bribes is for gaining pool, not votes. As for the problem with giving > other people pool, use Telepathic Vote Counting. Great card that is > waaaaaaaaay under-used. > > Regards, > Noal This I really got disagree on. Bribes buys votes. I can't count the number of times I've had people saying "don't block it, we'll just vote it down" as I was taking the political action, only to change their minds and vote "Yes" just for that one pool. The only times Bribes doesn't work as great and is just for getting 1 pool, is when the game is down to 2 players and your stuffed with a fist full of KRCs and Conserv Ag's, and also when people have gotten sick of the Voter Captivations you play. You just have to be... Charismatic when bribing. You can't just hand the cop a grand and say "now let me go". Nuthin' but love, baby Jamie The Seppo

I wish I could say otherwise but the sale of Black Hand at ICC was just a stupid corporate mistake. After some Cam Edition was released early at a trade show, we put policy in place that cards sets should not be available until the pre-release events. That policy was neglected when a small sample of BH was taken to the ICC. I am more frustrated than anyone about it I assure you, but I think there will be enough surprises left for entertaining pre-release events. Steve WW